E-mails From Fundies

Today’s e-mail comes from Jerry Kaiser

Stuff Fundies Like Contact: You guys are a joke!

I am disgusted with you and your website. Any logical thinking person
that reads any drivel you put on your page can clearly see your bias
against fundamentalism. I would welcome a face to face debate with any
of your truth-challenged “contributors”. I am guessing that you could
nor get real jobs with a reputable news reporting agency and you have
fabricated this garbage. You clearly are troubled people.

And yes, his e-mail address is @juno.com

But that’s not all there is to the story. A quick search shows me that a Jerry Kaiser is the youth pastor of Gospel Light Baptist Church of Walker, Michigan. This is the church of “pastor” Tedd Butler who was recently featured in our news section being brought up on charges of child rape.

If you are, in fact, the same Mr. Kaiser then I marvel at your misplaced sense of moral outrage, sir. Perhaps your disgust should not be with this website but rather with the evil that has been reported in your own midst committed by your own leader. You can feel free to debate me on this point (face to face or otherwise), but I will submit to you that child rape is a much graver crime than poking fun at someone on the Internet.

186 thoughts on “E-mails From Fundies”

  1. πŸ’‘ πŸ’‘ πŸ’‘ Darrell, you’ve inspired me to start collecting donations to buy several feet of rope and some giant millstones. I have some good connections from when I was head of purchasing for a food manufacturer. We bought our stones from a place in New Mexico. They were cut from volcanic rock. One of these stones should be able to drag a low-life pedophile and several of his defenders to the bottom of the ocean and keep them there until the judgement. Haymen?

    1. Don’t waste money on millstones. Since that isn’t a command, and since pedophiles and rapists aren’t worth even the cost of the rope, lets throw them into one of our swamps we have in the Southeast. ‘Gators need to eat, too.

        1. I was thinking Georgia and Louisiana. Less Northern liberal influence. I also think they have an immunity to that kind of poison. My belief is they would thrive on a diet of “those who should be trusted” sex offender. AND–they are non-denominational.

    2. This kind of post tends to prove Mr Kaiser’s point in his email. Nothing in his email was defending a pedophile or child molester.

      While SFL has been a help for me, I do think that some of the posts show almost a glee and rejoicing at the crimes of an IFB pastor/staff. We should be be humble – there but for the grace of God go I, etc.

      We should not rejoice at the fall of anyone who names the name of Christ.

      1. I don’t think there is glee or rejoicing over something sick and twisted like child sexual molestation. I think there is a certain amount of humorous satisfaction in telling a critical church-leader that he and his church has a big, gigantic, public, and grotesquely obvious splinter in his eye and criticizing others is probably not in his best interests right now – tend to the flock that needs tending.

  2. Worse, maybe. But you must admit, they are comparable. In the following ways. Which I am about to state…. just as soon as I can think of them. Oh, wait, no. I was wrong. Not comparable.

    Also, how many “contributors” do you have? Can I go on staff with SFL? Can you pay me?

  3. Oh yes…How dare you bring attention to his leader’s reported sexual assault of a child!
    πŸ™„ πŸ™„ πŸ™„

    Does it get more cultic than this? πŸ™

  4. (but to be fair, someone could theoretically be morally outraged at their pastor’s alleged crimes AND still express disgust at an internet website. Fundies find loads of things to be offended by: don’t misunderestimate the boundless energies for moral offense capable by your fundy friends. I only hope that, indeed, he starts with outrage at alleged rape before internet websites. If that’s the case, I won’t deny him his misguided internet rage.)

      1. Bingo. For just one example, I read this

        I am guessing that you could nor get real jobs with a reputable news reporting agency and you have fabricated this garbage.

        and still don’t know what that has to do with anything, though I feel compelled to point out that I’m at least one frequent commenter who has worked for “a reputable news reporting agency.”

        And as for how anyone “can clearly see your bias
        against fundamentalism”… Duh.

        1. I’ve actually worked for “reputable news reporting agencies,” too. But, full disclosure: I’m not formally a member of the huge, overpaid staff of “Stuff Fundies Like.”

  5. Fundy Rule #70
    “When you pick on our guy for something stupid he did, it’s judgement. When we pick on your guy for something stupid he did, it’s discernment.”

  6. Fundy Rule #68
    “Anything can be rationalized if you claim that doing otherwise will cause souls to end up in hell (no matter how illegal, immoral, or downright silly that thing may be.”

  7. Wow, he’s SPECIAL. (Not the good kind of special.)

    I’d be happy to debate him any time. I hope he comes back to read this post and the comments. Jerry, I am sure I would be a worthy advocate (yes, even under the influence of 3/4 a bottle of moscato wine).

        1. Well we need to bring george along in his official capacity incase our opponent needs his services. πŸ˜‰

  8. We are most definitely “troubled people.” That is why we left Fundyland: Because we don’t want to continue being troubled.

    Mister (rev?) Kaiser is welcome to start any thread in the forum on any subject. While there may be cases of inappropriate jokes every now and then, and inappropriate attacks or even insults, for the most part, the issues are discussed fair and square. Something that was denied to many of us while we were part of the cult.

    Check everything out. Keep the good stuff.

    1. SHRIEKING with laughter a this one. Oh, how he will hate THAT!
      For the record, though he would never stoop to debate a woman, bring it on, Dufus. I can string together more impressive-sounding adjectives to describe what you are than anyone I know, and you will be crying for Mommy before it’s over. You. Make. Me. Vomit, Jerry Kaiser, and God forbid a child YOU care about should be victimized in this way. You obviously didn’t give a rat’s patootie for THIS poor victim! God help you. I certainly won’t.

  9. β€œI am guessing that you could nor get real jobs with a reputable news reporting agency”

    I get the idea that he thinks that SFL is some sort of organized journalistic website. πŸ˜†

    1. What’s funny is that even though SFL is not a journalistic website, Darrell does a much better job at stating facts and using Biblical back-ups and reason than most fundies do. =\

    2. β€œI am guessing that you could nor get real jobs with a reputable news reporting agency”

      Since when has the mainstream media been seen as reputable to fundies?

        1. Well, now, Big Gary, SOTL is great if you like reading about “congealed salad.” When Curtis Hutson was still alive, he liked to report where he had been since the last issue, and interestingly, no matter where he had been, someone had served him “congealed salad.” Here in these later years, I have come to wonder if there is some sort of mystic connection between hyper-legalism and “congealed salad.” In the case of the barf-tastic CW so-called periodical, it is all about the shade of lipstick you wear, and how often you change the fingertip towels in the bathroom. Given Jerry Kaiser’s grasp of reality, I would say that yes, those must be his news sources. πŸ˜•

        2. Nah, it’s not bad. I grew up eating congealed salads. My mother and grandmothers all made it frequently. It’s just salad vegetables or fruit or seafood or some other food embedded in gelatin. In my family’s case, it usually had a Jell-O base. In fact, I’m sure I could make at least a dozen different versions from memory, if you want some. My mother’s mother made Jell-O salads so often that I was convinced she thought that Jell-O was at least two of the four major food groups. Her favorites were compositions involving alternate layers of fruit Jell-o and mayonnaise, with cheese, nuts, celery, and assorted surprises embedded in the layers. I never quite came to share her enthusiasm for this category of food.

          All that said, though, I have no idea why someone would want to mention congealed salad in every bloomin’ issue of the paper.

  10. But you see, that is a *forgivable* sin. You don’t even have to repent for that one! Everyone knows the worst, most unforgivable sin in Christianity is making a rapist feel bad. I know, I speak from firsthand experience. If the world would just stop throwing stones (because hey, all sins are equal right?) then we could finally have that perfect world of Christian Unity. Just look the other way.

    1. You sound like someone who has been “helped” by the counseling staff at BJU. Maybe you’ve even starred in one of Rand Hummel’s sermon illustrations. πŸ˜₯

      1. Raised in Penacostal/Foursquare actually. But my mother was somewhat of a fundie Baptist growing up. I just tend to find in much of American Christian culture, it’s better to do horrific things to others than to be the victim of those things or to dare call it out.

  11. If we are clearly troubled people, wouldn’t a Christlike response be to comfort us instead of insult us, question our integrity and job skills, and challenge us to debate?

    I think we’re CAUSING trouble!

  12. Darrell, Darrell, Darrell! How could you insinuate that rape is a worse crime than laughing at people? It’s sin, amen? We’re all sinners, amen? Don’t you be trying to point the finger to other people who allegedly abused a minor! You need to take the speck out of your own eye, or you’ll get thwacked upside the head with the plank in their hands, not to mention the one in their eye. Gosh! Have you not been reading your Saved, Separated, And Soul-Winning Study Bible? That’s as big a sin as it gets, but sin is equal, but that is worse, even though it’s equal, amen?

  13. Well he does speak the truth on several issues. This place IS a joke and any ‘logical’ thinking person could easily see we have a bias. He is mistaken in that this is not a news site although I would love to be considered a ‘contributor’ so I could put that on my resume! πŸ˜€

    We are troubled. Troubled at the abuse, physical and spiritual that goes on in some of the fundamentalist churches. We are troubled that nothing is done about it. No one is called into account and few ‘separate’ from known abusers. We are troubled at the ‘blame the victim’ mentality. We are troubled at the ‘hear no evil/see no evil/speak no evil’ atmosphere that fundamentalists insist on maintaining.

    A debate that is done within the confines of a real debate which would mean no raising of voices, no personal attacks, no strawmen…no innuendo and hard documentation of facts. That also does not mean constantly shouting Bible verses. Most of us here know the Bible already thank you.

    Think you can handle that? I’m sure that any one of our ‘regular contributors’ here could.

  14. I support this site and what you do here, and have recently posted here and other places about some issues my husband and I are facing leaving our IFB church. The only thing that bothers me about this is that so far, my understanding is that these are just accusations. I’m not defending the man, and after all I’ve come across recently, this most likely will come out in the wash to be exactly as all the other child abuse I’ve read about, and be true…but I think it’s wise to keep in mind that people, and kids, DO make false accusations sometimes. I have an acquantance whose life was ruined for years until his two SIL’s confessed and apologized that they were forced by their dad to make accusations against him, b/c the father didn’t like that his oldest daughter married him. He was able to have his name cleared officially, but only after 5 years on the sex offender registry, and after harassment from locals. Of course, as a childhood victim of sexual abuse, I also understand how tricky it is to determine the truth and there are so many times no one listens to the abuse victim. I just hope there is solid evidence. However, I do also feel that any responsible pastor who is in Christ and not guilty of the charges would have the decency to step down as pastor until he is cleared of all charges. And while I understand this man’s defense of the pastor IF he truly believes him to be innocent (for any of us would speak out for someone we truly believed was innocent of a crime), I believe his anger at these sites is misplaced. There is a reason these sites exist, and it’s not to make fun of Christ or Christianity, but rather to expose genuine wrongdoing and twisting of the scripture, and in a humorous way. I myself was pleased to see a lot of Christians frequent here…b/c as I have begun to deal with issues and questions I’ve had for awhile now, I worried it was all or nothing, that I wouldn’t find a middle ground…that anyone or any site I went to in order to discuss what I’m going through would be a total bashing site against my core beliefs…and I’m happy that’s not the case. I think this man’s anger needs to be directed at those who’ve taken God’s word and used it to elevate their status and lord power over helpless victims.

    1. Good points there. I totally agree that sometimes on here it feels just a LITTLE bit like “because he’s fundy, the accusation itself is enough.” And, like you, I’ve known both a case where the victim was disbelieved and shut up to protect someone who seemed pretty , and also a case where the accused was completely innocent, but had his life nearly ruined by someone who made up sexual molestation charges.

      However, all other things being equal, and allowing for this church’s pastor to be innocent till proven guilty, I notice that Jerry follows the typical fundy path of not actually denying anything, and instead just attacking anyone who even mentions that there were any charges. I’m still waiting for one of these guys to get on here and respond to a news report by saying something like, “I know Pastor Q personally, and while no one can account for the whereabouts and actions of another person at every single minute, and that Christians are capable of sin, I know that these accusations do not at all seem in keeping with the character of this man. He’s told us that he did not do it, and is transparently cooperating with the police and the church to clear his name.” But it’s never like that.

  15. I don’t know about the rest of you but I am thinking of changing my SFL handle to “Truth-Challenged Contributor”! Any new people thinking of registering should grab that screen name!

    I went to Fundy U with a Jerry Kaiser. I wonder if it is the same dude?

    I like SFL because it uses humor to address a subject that very easily could be depressing. Some other sites that have an antagonistic view of fundamentalism approach it seriously and often those sites are a bummer to read.

    1. I’ve wondered for a number of years now if Juno somehow doesn’t have a spell check? I can’t imagine any other reason to use a Juno account anymore, other than you want some common features to be unavailable?

        1. “…the evil Internet. …which is a known cesspool of pornography and Calvinism…”

          What ludicrous inferences can we draw from this gem?

          1. There is Calvinist pornography.
          2. Pornographers are Calvinists.
          3. Being a Calvinist is similar to being a pornographer.
          4. Pornography and Calvinism are of equal ubiquity on the internet.

          Discuss.

          You will be tested later.

        2. John Calvin was not what you would call an attractive dude. The thought of Calvin porn will give me nightmares for weeks.

        3. Perhaps this is too racy…but does Calvin porn mean that only a few chosen actually get to see it?

    2. Fundamentalists who use juno for email are overlooking the fact that Juno was a PAGAN Roman goddess.

      Clearly these fundies need to separate from their juno email accounts for their wicked paganism.

  16. My @juno account has a spell check. It is amazingly easy to use, since when you hit “send” it is automatic. Yes, I have one. It is the e-mail I use for almost anything I do online, so spamming stays at a minimum on my TWO for pay accounts.

    I think the reason the Kaiser doesn’t use the spell check is a that “no godless website is going to tell this mog what to do…..”

  17. “You guys are a joke!”

    Ah, well, yes, that’s pretty much the whole point of “Stuff Fundies Like.”

    “Any logical thinking person … can clearly see your bias against fundamentalism.”

    Um, that’s also the point, now that you mention it. :mrgreen:

  18. I believe “emails from readers” should be made a regular here on SFL. There is nothing like seeing for your own eyes actual emails from actual fundies to be truly disgusted with the amount of non-sense, hate, and logic they proclaim.

  19. If this is the Jerry Kaiser who lives in Grand Rapids, MI, he is 20 years old, and he’s married. I think that explains something. I don’t know many 20 year olds today who are actually mature enough to get married. But I know plenty who THINK they are. I guess this guy has it all figured out.

    I followed the link to the church site, and clicked on the “youth pastor” link. It comes up that the domain name expired 8/19/11.

    It’s sad that people can’t see that Jesus had a problem with fundamentalists, too. Of course, they had a different name back then – Pharisees. πŸ˜‰

        1. Actually, Pharisees by and large were ordinary people who reached out to ordinary people. I know this goes against the oh so beautiful depiction of Pharisees in your tradition, but you might want to consider that when a text lumps whole groups of people together as ‘the Pharisees’ or ‘the Jews’ without ever giving any details as to who or what, there just might be a bit of exaggeration going on! So, I’ll ask my usual questions of Pharisee bashers. Please fill in the gaps of your text and name 5-10 Pharisees and state what they taught that was so offensive they should still be ridiculed for it 2000 years later. If you need assistance, try reading Pirke Avot. It’s short, names quite a number of Pharisees by name and what they taught. Perhaps after going through this exercise you will be able to find a new insult for people you don’t agree with; an insult that doesn’t include the sages of another religious tradition that has nothing to do with yours. πŸ™„

        2. Jesus knew them, ate with them, taught to them, and didn’t bother to name them. Called them ‘white washed sepulchers’ as I recall.

        3. Natalie,
          There will be no debate. I have asked this question of Christians many times and so far the only response I have received is similar to that of boymom, “Well, Jesus said these were bad people so it must be true. No way am I going to bother finding out if there could be another side to this story.”

          Interesting to think about in light of something I read today, “But people guilty of ‘groundless hatred’ never acknowledge that they have committed a sin. Ask them if they think it is wrong to hate their opponents and they will tell you why their adversaries are worthy of being hated. Consequently, although their sin seems to be of a lesser dimension, they never repent of it.” (Rabbi Joseph Telushkin, Jewish Wisdom, p. 197)

        4. @YAEL. While we are all guilty of being Pharisees because none of us can keep the law perfectly, and Jesus fulfilled the law perfectly,here at SFL we do try to bring to light those who are HAPPY to break Gods law, destroy YOUNG lives in the name of God and then try to cover it up.

          BTW, interesting handle name. YAEL murdered Sisera after welcoming him and feeding him after he lost his battle with Jabin as I am sure you know. That sounds kinda two faced or Pharisaical?

        5. I didn’t say Jesus said they were bad people; I said he didn’t NAME them, which you asked us to do. Except for one, Nicodemus. And it doesn’t matter what they taught; if it doesn’t line up with what Jesus taught, (and many times he made it clear it didn’t), then it is irrelevant. I’m sure they were decent people who loved their wives and children and tried to do right by their community. But they could still be wrong.

        6. stupid double post 😳
          p.s. I NEVER said “No way am I going to bother finding out if there could be another side to this story.”

        7. Yael, In the context of this group, which is Christian by culture and choice, the term “Pharisee”
          carries the connotation inherent by the accounts in the “New Testament” and the writings of the Pharisee Paul. In GENERAL those accounts and references reveal and critisize the obsession of keeping the Law without seeking or knowing the Law Giver. If you, seemingly being of Jewish culture and belief, know of some Parisees whose writings contradict this steriotype, great! It still does not negate the cultural validity of the common usage in the Christian context as done by the Pharisee Paul in the time that the books were written.

    1. Whether he is married or not. Twenty years old or not. Living with mommy or not. None of this matters to the fundamentalist. For a fundamentalist is right about EVERYthing, EVERYtime.

    1. Wow, that is surprising. I work in IT at a Christian university and we won’t use GoDaddy, even though purchasing security certificates from them would be about 1/3 the price of who we currently use.

  20. Jerry Kaiser huh? For some reason the name rang a bell. I just can never cease to be absolutely astounded by such arrogant hypocrisy as those people consistently demonstrate. Twisted people.

  21. Biased against fundamentalism? Why, yes. Thanks to fundamentalism.

    Fabricated garbage? Why, no. I really wish my experiences were fake and fabricated, but I’m afraid they are not. My brain would be in much better shape.

      1. Second step: If I HAVE a brain, does God want me to USE this brain?
        Third step: Why, yes, He does.
        Fourth step: Then what the crap am I doing listening to these bozos?
        Fifth step: Incredible liberty.

  22. “Fabricated … garbage”? Wait a minute. So the videos of Tony Hutson, Jack Schaap, Rand Hummel are all fake? The personal experiences of many of SFL’s regular posters are made up? The pictures photoshopped?

    Then I would hire this highly-competent group of SFL professionals in a heartbeat. This is Intelligence Agency material.

  23. Thanks to Darrell for consistently blowing the horn on these child-molester, abominable perverts. The picture of the molester/rapist with those little boys… the ultimate betrayal; and it happens over and over and over and over again.

  24. @Yael – Yeah, as a group, we tend to have reverence for very few things, but Jesus Christ is one of them. Christ acknowledged that the Pharisees APPEARED great, describing them in Matthew 23:27

    “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean.”

    So your argument asking us to show you some Pharisees who appear bad would be tough to do, since they looked great, followed all the rules and instructed others to do as well. What we can’t show you is their heart, which Christ could see, and was revolted by. If that upsets you, or you want to argue that point, this is a dead end. If Christ was wrong about them, we’re all wrong about everthing. So I will die believing that Jesus is Lord, was right about the everything, and you can choose to admire the Pharisees. We all have a choice. Let’s do it and see how it works out. πŸ˜€

    1. Considering that the Pharisees were the basis of Rabbinic Judiasm after the fall of the Second Temple, I don’t think you can fault a poster named Yael for supporting their reputation. Christian writers were trying to separate themselves from those who strictly followed the Law, since Jesus proclaimed that such strictness was no longer necessary. Pharisees were the good guys in Jewish tradition; in Christianity, not so much.

    2. After Glow,
      Actually the Pharisees were a mixed bag much like any other group. That’s why I see lumping them all together as ‘the Pharisees’ as no different than lumping together’ the blacks’ or ‘the Hispanics’ and making blanket statements. But, if I have it straight, if Jesus does the stereotyping it’s always OK and OK for everyone who comes after him to continue to do the same forever and ever?

      If this is the case then perhaps you can understand my amusement when people here get all indignant about how certain fundies talk and then counter with these people not acting like Jesus. From my view they are acting exactly like Jesus, who called those who didn’t agree with him a brood of vipers, sons of their father the devil and of course the white washed tombs. You can claim Jesus was justified but so what? The fundies I see being ragged on also feel they are justified.

      Thorz2,
      I understand quite well that Christians use Pharisees to suit their own definition, but IMO just because it’s always been this way doesn’t make it right. Interesting character that Paul. Was he a Pharisee? If so, why was he working for the High Priest who was a Sadducee? Pharisees and Sadducees did not get along at all! I’m going to say Sadducee since he said he was from the tribe of Benjamin, sort of like saying you’re a Rockefeller; Priests being the ones with the money. I know what Paul claimed, but I also know he said he would become all things to all people in order to win some so I take his claims with a grain of salt.

      Presbygirl,
      The Pharisees didn’t teach anyone had to keep Torah perfectly, some of them were, however, quite concerned with ritual purity. Perfection is a Christian teaching, not a Jewish one, so to say you or I are Pharisees for not keeping Torah perfectly doesn’t make any sense. Now if we were compulsive hand washers trying to get everyone else to do the same, that might be another story. And Yael isn’t my ‘handle’, it is my Hebrew name; thank you for your kind words concerning this name. Yael relates to goat and going up. There is a Psalm which speaks of the high places being for the wild goats so it is my private joke that I am that wild goat roaming around in those high places where I encounter the Divine, not that some people here would believe that is possible…

      That Other Jean,
      I don’t actually support the Pharisees reputation one way or the other, as I said, they are a mixed bag. I do, however, believe that researching and studying to understand the words we use is a good thing for anyone. It seems others would disagree. πŸ˜€

      And in case anyone is curious why I even read here, I always read across the spectrum so I know what’s out there. I teach Torah and use what I learn to help others cope in a world not geared to us. My friends think I’m nuts to visit places such as this, but in the end I must say, they all agree I have the best stories! πŸ˜‰

      (And since I’m the odd one out, just let me be clear, I write with a smile not a frown.)

      1. Thanks for commenting.

        I very much like your explanation of your name, and I, for one, believe you, but I am one of the apostates around here, so no one will be surprised that I do.

        1. Thanks green Eggs and Ham. For myself, I have taken on the label of apikoros (heretic) since that is how I am viewed by the fundies in my own religion. I look at it this way, since any of the best people were considered apostates and heretics by the religious establishments of their eras, I feel honored to be included in their company.

        2. Really for Yael:

          I’m glad you’re here. The discussion is sometimes contentious, but it’s always interesting. It’s never intended to be hurtful—ex-fundies have seen enough of that.

        3. That Other Jean,
          Thanks. If I had sensed the conversations here were mean-spirited I would never have commented. I, too, have had enough abuse at the hands of fundies. Lucky me, I get it from two sides, both Jewish fundies and Christian fundies.

        4. Yael, I’m glad to have you here, too.

          I am aware of the historical controversy over the nature of the real Pharisees and their teachings. I’ve heard and read some of the modern defenses of them.

          I’m sure you’re aware, though, that the New Testament implies that they were hyper-legalists and at times hypocritical. So it’s not surprising that inheritors of the Christian tradition use the term “Pharisee” to mean any excessively legalistic person, whether or not the person believes what the Pharisees of history believed. It’s much like our national tendency to call people “Fascists” or compare them to Hitler or Stalin if they have objectionable political views, even though the people in question usually are not literally Facists, Nazis, or Stalinists.

          Personally, I prefer to just call people excessively legalistic if that’s what they are. But I know that those who call Fundamentalists Pharisees usually don’t mean it literally.

      2. I don’t think this is a case of lumping all lawyers together as crooked and misidentifying a couple good ones. Jesus knew the men He identified as vipers and whited sepulchers. (I think the fact that they crucified Him validates His point.)

        Clearly we will never agree because you do not acknowledge the Deity of Christ. We scoff at the MOG who expects the members of his church to believe his words carte blanche. It’s a different ballgame when it comes to the words of Jesus Christ. Yes, if HE said it, I believe it.

        “Exaggerating” implies that you think He is a liar. My personal conviction is that anyone who contradicts JESUS is wrong. ❗

        1. @Tammy When I started my long winded reply yours wasn’t up yet. I should have just waited and then said ditto under yours because I agree 100% with what you said.

        2. It seems to me Jesus only wrote a few letters in the dirt. How is saying what someone else wrote is exaggerated calling him a liar?

          So, you think ‘the Pharisees’ crucified Jesus. What happened to the Romans?

          I get labeled ‘wrong’ quite regularly so I am not at all bothered by such things. I don’t label as wrong people who believe differently than me,however. I just put it in the category of Deuteronomy 29:25 where God gets mad at us for turning aside ‘to the service of other gods whom they had not experienced and whom God had not allotted to them.”

          and for Christians:
          You saw no shape, only a voice, don’t make an image in the form of a man or a woman, beast, birds, creeping things, fish, sun, moon, stars, heavenly host (Deut 4:15-16).

          These Adonai your God allotted to other peoples everywhere under heaven, but you Adonai took and brought out of Egypt, that iron blast furnace, to be God’s very own people, as is now the case. (Deut 4:19)

          Your allotment is not mine. Some people I know claim Christians are idolaters, but I don’t go there. What you were given is not what was given me.

          And I know you don’t believe that either, but that’s OK, too.

      3. Yael,

        I agree with you that the Pharisees were a mixed bag. In fact, I would guess that Jesus would agree with you, even though the New Testament doesn’t come out and clearly state it, but I think we can infer it. For example, Nicodemus was a Pharisee and who eventually became a follower of Jesus. So when Nicodemus was in the group of those who followed Jesus, and he clearly was John 7:50, he would have fit the label of being a Pharisee and at the same time not necessarily having the lifestyle that fit the definition that Christ was using. It is possible that Joseph of Arimathea was also a Pharisee, though that is not as clear.

        But the bigger issue is not whether or not the Pharisees were a mixed lot of good guys and bad guys or just all bad guys, not is it a matter of them getting a bad reputation for the actions of just a few, the issue is that Pharisees in the time of Christ were not actually pointing their own people to God. And yes I base that statement off of the teachings of Jesus Christ. The Sermon on the Mount is pretty clear as to what it is that Jesus came to teach. Matthew 5:20 Jesus tells them that the kingdom of Heaven is unattainable unless their righteousness exceeds that of the Scribes and the Pharisees. So in that statement Jesus is doing two things, first he is pointing out that the Scribes and Pharisees were the ones who set the “righteousness bar” in New Testament times, and secondly He was pointing out that no amount of human righteousness would be good enough. But then Jesus takes it one step farther and in Matt 5:48 He declares we must be perfect as God is perfect. Who can do that? Not the Pharisees, not you, and certainly not I. Jesus was and is the only One who can do it as He is the God-man. And so in His statements in Matthew, He shows us that no amount of human righteousness can gain us access to the Father. Yet at the same time He clearly states that we must have perfect, God like righteousness to ever see God. And so He introduces Himself in Matt 5, and in the remainder of the Gospels, as the One who alone can provide. The righteousness that God demands is the righteousness that Jesus alone provides to those who come to Him.

        As far as your statement “if Jesus does the stereotyping it’s always OK and OK for everyone who comes after him to continue to do the same forever and ever”; I see it as less stereotyping and simply more as truth telling. After all Jesus claimed to be Truth on numerous occasions. Not simply truthful, but the actual Truth. For Him to not be truthful at all times would, of course, not make Him who He said He was. Which I also understand is very thing you are trying to do.

        Thanks for commenting and I say that with all sincerity and with a smile on my face. πŸ™‚

        1. Appreciate the smile! I’ll keep another one on my face in return. I’m thinking you just might be someone I can converse with about a few things I’m wondering about.

          So, I have a question for you. If a Mormon quoted Joseph Smith to you as proof of the truth of Mormonism, how would you respond?

          And just to be clear, I’m not trying to make any point at all about Jesus; my concern is solely with the continued use of the word Pharisee as the greatest of Christian insults.

          I’m curious. If people are out to save the world, why, when someone says, hey, this term you use is an insult to me, why would the response be, we have the right to use this term because Jesus did and you’re wrong to be bothered by it. Aren’t I supposed to be part of that big mission field? What’s so important about holding on to this term? I’m quite curious.

          Some years ago a Christian guy told me he found my comments on Christianity insulting. I talked with him and found out what the deal was and made an effort to change my tone, and I don’t even think anyone needs to convert! I just didn’t want to needlessly hurt someone like that. I had every right to say what I said; it was most definitely the truth about my experiences with Christianity over the course of many years, yet it was better to just let that truth go and move on in a new direction. I like hanging out with good people and since I am a religious person, heretic and all, I have the most in common with other religious people no matter that they believe differently than me. Why, after one of them told me I was insulting him, would I insist on continuing to do so?

          What would change if someone said, hey, I think Jesus was right to insult those people, but I’m just going to leave it as something for that day and not something I will continue repeating? Surely that wouldn’t take away from your Jesus or your text.

          You know what I’m saying? πŸ˜€ (Still the smile)

          Appreciate the conversation.

      4. @Yael. Welcome! If you think its rough out here, you’d better not come to the forums! I’m too tired to discuss much else tonight. Sorry for any or all assumptions made.

        1. Presbygirl,
          Thanks and not to worry.

          I’ve actually been to the forums quite a few times, just have never commented. I mean, what can I say about PCC or MOG? Thankfully neither have been part of my world! Interesting at times to read, however. I get to learn about another world.

          I suppose it is too bad I joined the conversation only to speak of insults, makes me sound quite thin skinned. The reality is I find religious people, religions and God quite fascinating, so although conversations sometimes start out a bit bumpy, in the end I often meet people with whom I enjoy conversing. I apologize to all for my own impatience, insults and assumptions.

        2. boymom,
          You could indeed be the scapegoat or you could just be the person who wrote, “Forget everything I said”. My apologies, when I read that I moved on to other comments. Perhaps another time. πŸ˜€

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