223 thoughts on “WWJD?”

    1. Different Word, but since Gutenberg didn’t bother inventing the press for 1500 years after this, he was constrained to learning/memorizing the OT as a youth from the Rabbis, and then reading them in the synagogues and places that would have the hand copied scrolls.

  1. I never new that the KJB existed when Jesus was on Earth….Personally I don’t think Jesus would bother to buy this particular book. It is probably more likely that he would put the money towards some organisation like Wycliffe Bible Translators.

      1. “C’mon, drink this.”
        “No.”
        “Dude, Jesus made it. Why won’t you drink what he made?”
        “Because I’m under 21 and my parents will kill me.”

        1. Jesus also draped himself with a loin cloth and washed dirty feet. Can you imagine ANY MOG of any denom doing that? Of course not, silly. That would require a CEO to take off his precious suit and tie, roll up his sleeves and comence to serving others.

          I wonder if any of us would do that.

          That’s what separates Jesus from the rest of us. He’s Jesus and we’re not.

          B.R.1

        2. In the Episcopal Church during Holy Week on Maundy Thursday, the Priest has bowls and pitchers of warm water, and washes the feet of all who come up for it.

          It is a very moving part of the ceremony. The priest says it is a reminder that what Christ has done for us, we are to do for others, and the command extends to him (or her) as well.

          And no, I cannot think that any of my IFB pastors would have done that. Humility was not their style.

        3. rtgmath,

          I really appreciate your comments. It reminds me that there are others outside fundyland that really try to demonstrate in a tangible way what Jesus set out to communicate to the world.

          B.R.1

      2. Jack Chick, If Jesus walked on water, why don’t you try it? I mean, even Peter did it! We could take you to the middle of the closest lake and let you demonstrate your faith.

        1. I would like to see tony hutson and David Grice to the same. I wonder, if they could actually do what Jesus did, wlhow much would the water level rise?

  2. So Jesus spoke (or at least read) English, and had the same Bible we have?

    There’s really no point in even arguing with people who believe such things.
    It’s like trying to convince someone the earth orbits the sun (see: Galileo).

    1. Not just English, but Kynge Jaymes Englyshe.

      All you need to do is check the URL — “www.chick.com”.

      Jack Chick — need I say more?

  3. Jesus probably quoted from the Targums and the Gospel authors then quoted him using the Septuagint. Of course, it really doesn’t matter since God was going to correct it all using his chosen language, Jacobean English.

  4. “If Jesus walked into your Church…” I am pretty sure that if Jesus walked into any Fundy church in the western world, he would be shown the door. He didn’t speak English, he was some shade of brown, he was financially unsuccessful, he didn’t wear a suit or tie, he probably had a fair bit of facial hair and frankly he probably smelled bad. He also had an uncomfortable habit of calling people out on hypocrisy, Yeah, I don’t think he’d last long no matter what version of the Bible he happened to be carrying.

    1. I love that you couch his beard in “probably”. I think Darrell has a post of where fundies dispute whether Jesus had a beard, even though it was plucked out at his crucifixion according to the scriptures.

      1. I am sure he had a beard, I just don’t know how long it was. I guess that would depend on what age he would hypothetically be when he walked into someone’s church.

        1. Today he would be clean-shavin, wearing a nice suit, white shirt, conservative tie, and shiney shoes. (sarcasim intended).

      2. I was told by someone that Jesus DIDN’T have facial hair. The reason they were able to pluck his beard was because he was in custody the night before and was unable to shave the night before his crucifixion.

        Apparently the soldiers were using tweezers?

        1. You were doing a good job as a Poe, I gotta say.

          I never ceased to be amazed at the logic (or lack thereof) that these people use.

          Every now and then, I think, “You know, why do I get so uptight about this stuff? People are generally pretty decent, right? I mean, some people have some odd ideas, but with a little honest discussion, they’ll see reason.”

          And then, WHAP!! I’m socked in the face by unbelievable hubris wrapped in arrogance with a big dash of ignorance. And the cycle starts again.

  5. Gotta love the replies to the negative reviews on the book’s Amazon page. Every bit of arrogance you’ve ever seen from a fundy on full display.

    1. It’s seriously like a crazy cult with extensively vitriolic attempts at intimidating the reviewer. It’s like they think that these reviewers aren’t human beings, but instead some demon they’re commanded to fight against.

      1. “…but instead some demon theyโ€™re commanded to fight against.”

        Very good way of putting it. So much of their lives seems to be conducted in that manner.

  6. I am a KJV only guy, but I do not worship the KJV. I get so sick and tired of preachers acting as if only KJV churches do anything for the Lord. I have heard several great preachers who have helped me, yet they used the NIV or the NKJV. So many in the IFB movement don’t even believe you can get saved from an NIV bible, such stupidity.

        1. Jay – There were drums in that clip. Drums! The instrument of satan himself.

          I knew an arrogant fundy who always proudly told the story of how he left his previous church the day they started using drums.

        2. My father left the Baptist church the day the choir put on purple robes. Purple! Apparently it smacked of Popery. Eye roll

        3. I learned this hymn with a completely different tune. I wish I could find a YouTube with that other tune!! It’s from the 1940 Episcopal Hymnal, and it absolutely *thunders.*

        4. My grandmother used to leave the sanctuary and stand in the vestibule if there were drums used in worship. Then she’d proudly tell you how restrained her reaction was. When that failed to get a reaction, she progressed to just sitting there with her arms folded, scowling, while everyone else sang. But if you asked her, she was just standing for the old paths that everyone else had forsaken.

          Ironically, my Episcopal church has music she’d probably love, but we’re Godless heathens and probably secret Catholics so she’ll never find out.

  7. In all fairness, I don’t think the review, as ridiculous as it is, is saying that Jesus would use the KJV back when he lived. They’re trying to say that if Jesus came to earth today the KJV is what he would use (because reasons). He would look like a typical, ordinary person, speak our language, dress as we dress. If he was born in America/England, he’d speak English, French in France, etc etc. But no, he probably wouldn’t be accepted in the typical IFB church.

    As to what Bible he’d use, that’s just speculation.

  8. Wow! I know this guy. Unbelievable. He was a very good friend of my former father-in-law (now deceased) in MA. Crazy. My father-in-law was a KJV nut as well. Loved him, but he was as solid IFB as you’ll ever find.

  9. The audacity that he would attempt to proclaim what God would do. That in itself just makes my blood boil.

    The other day I dreamt that Jesus came to the Antelope Valley, and our pastor was standing outside the compound with his arms spread wide begging Jesus to come see all he had done,. and see all the beautiful buildings he had built. Jesus turned his back and went to the homeless shelter.

    I know it was just a dream, but it certainly made an impact on me.

    1. If you really did have this dream, then I would urge you to listen to it. I’m usually skeptical about such things, but the message has the ring of authenticity.

      1. @Zla’od: I really did! As dreams go, it seemed so real and was quite shaken by it.
        I couldn’t very well share it with anyone, or I just look like a reprobate (typical IFB)
        We are making plans to depart from this place.

    2. A few nights ago, I dreamed I was sitting in my old church’s auditorium smoking a cigarette when my pastor-cousin walked over and started giving me what-for.

      I looked at him and said, “In a few hours, the smoke smell will be gone. But, I have heard the Bible mutilated from that pulpit for the last decade. I’ve seen people spiritually abused, and I know of kids in this church who were sexually abused. No one here will know I smoked in a short time, but some of us will bear those scars for life.”

      My wife said I’m kind of a theological bad-ass in my dreams. A while back, I dreamed I told my former “pastor” to eff off after he was telling me I needed to get busy for God and it would solve my life problems.

    3. While we’re sharing dreams, I dreamed a couple months ago I was walking in the ruins of some empire, the crumbled remains of buildings everywhere. Jesus was there standing in a clearing among the rubble. in blue jeans and a black t-shirt. He said, “I’m Jesus.” I was ashamed to look at him, and averted my eyes, because I’m a sinner. And I wept. That was all.

      So I told the dream to my wife, and I said, “It was just my imagination. Would Jesus wear blue jeans and a t shirt?” And she said, “Why not?”

      I still have my doubts. I think it was likely just a dream, informed by my life experience and philosophy.

      1. I had a dream when I was about four that really had an impact on me to this day:

        I was riding in a Jeep with my Dad. The Jeep had no top and I was in the passenger seat probably not wearing a seat belt since this would have been about 1969. No air bags either.

        All of the sudden, after glancing to my right out on the passenger side of the Jeep, I saw a rocking chair rocking alongside the Jeep with a hand sitting in the rocking chair. The hand appeared to be aware of my presence since it “looked ” up at me as we were going along.

        I looked up at my Dad, who was busy driving, trying to tell him what I was seeing. The words wouldn’t come out! I was petrafied! The hand in the rocking chair moved with us until we stopped at what I can only describe as an outdoor brick BBQ out in the middle of nowhere. The hand in the rocking chair just stopped with us along side the Jeep right next to me. My Dad got out and I was unable to move or talk. I woke up.

        A parallel to fundyland? No, I don’t think so. But you never know!

        B.R.1

        1. I have lots of dreams that are vivid and realistic.

          One segment that’s very memorable was in Hong Kong. I had my daughter’s hand in my left hand as we were going through a street market. We went in one shop with goods hanging from the walls and the ceiling. I had a gun with a silencer in the other hand. We exited the shop from one opening and entered again from another. There was a carved book case I put my daughter behind as I crouched, waiting for our pursuers….

          Dreams can be fun, strange, and even imprint on us as memories.

        2. In my dreams, I am always trying to rescue children. Lately it has been babies left alone in cribs. I’m sure the dreams have nothing to do with my life calling.

    4. Our dreams are a way the brain makes use of the otherwise unconnected and undealt-with experiences in our lives. Some things take time to connect. Some things take time to be dealt with.

      It seems to me you realized Jesus was not impressed by these men who are so impressed with themselves.

      As you act on this realization, you will gain ability to act on the other issues that trouble you. I wish you well. I hope you do get out, and that your family comes out with you.

  10. Which Bus Ministry publication would Jesus subscribe to?
    Which Baptist “camps” would Jesus fellowship with?
    Which brand of communion wafer would Jesus feel best represents his body?
    Which big box retailer would Jesus have his disciples shop at?
    Disneyland or Disneyworld?

    When you get to decide “What Jesus Would Do” it leads to all sorts of foolish disputations.

    These people don’t even show any evidence in their lives that they know What Jesus did, let alone the capability to determine what he would do in a modern cultural context.

    If Jesus went to their church, he would quote from the Message just to rile up the religious leaders. He was that guy…

      1. We should pack up and go home. You win.

        By the way, when we figure this out, let’s totally send in a Jesus application for their boot camp. Get Lupe all riled up…

        1. Or maybe not, since provoking people to wrath isn’t exactly right, but it’s funny nonetheless.

        2. “Provoking people yo wrath” isn’t sllways wrong .Jesus did it in occasion. ๐Ÿ˜‰ ๐Ÿ™‚

      1. Jesus would not have gone to Jack Hyles’ church to hear Jack Hyles.

        The reason for going to church, any church, should not be to listen to the preacher. It should be to draw closer to Christ, to worship Him and to sit at his feet, to be restored to fellowship and gain strength to serve God in the real world.

        Hyles thought too much of himself to sit at Jesus’ feet.

    1. Now thats my Jesus. I personally think he would wear skinny jeans and a black t-shirt, maybe a beanie. Just to prove to my FIL (who I love but disagree with on many many many levels) that skinny jeans on a preacher are not evil (or in his words – the beta program and those pastors always fail – uhh yeah cause they are human and they screw up – just. Like.you. – doesn’t mean everything they do is evil or wrong or against God.)

  11. I can’t believe there is a book about this. The arrogance is amazing. Jesus would not carry a Bible. He, Himself, is the Word. So, He would have to carry himself.

    1. But weekly Eucharist is something something needless repetition something scare word, and daily would be–!!!!!! Oh, horrors!

      Spend enough generations obsessively rooting out popery and you end up with this kind of neepery.

  12. I would suspect that Jesus would walk in with an Aramaic bible. Then again, his word play of “born from above” instead of “born again” in John 3:3-7 only works in Greek, which means Jesus and another prominent Jew were speaking Greek in a place that doesn’t. So maybe Greek.

    1. Maybe. The Johanine writings pose some problems. It is generally understood that they were produced in community much later than the other gospels, and the Gospel of John is not only non-linear, it is intentionally structured around themes. There is some question about what Jesus actually said, as apposed to what is attributed to him.

    2. I never knew that jesus spoke in 1611 English and owned a KJB. I thought He would have been able to speak at least Four languages. Aramaic in the home. As a Jew He would have been at comfortable with Hebrew. Greek had the lingua franca of much of the Mediterranean region for many centuries including Palestine so Jesus may have had at least a smattering of that language and because the Romans were occupying the country, He would have heard a fair amount of Latin. At least that’s what I believed. (eye roll)

  13. OffTopic, for rtgmath for recent comments, and anyone else:

    See this – http://www.businessinsider.com/here-comes-teslas-missing-piece-battery-announcement-2015-4

    I’d advise against reading the comments, but it’s your typical conservative “it’s not economically feasible so it’s stupid to make these” things.

    Did anyone else see the movie Interstellar, particularly the parent/teacher conference scene? I don’t understand how people can’t realize that these are emerging technologies, things take time to improve and adapt, but MUST be invented or start somewhere. It’s this particular type of the conservative/fundamentalist mindset that really really irks me. Everything has to start somewhere. Do not stifle creativity, innovation, emerging technologies.

    It wasn’t cost effective for the Wrights to build a flying machine, horses were faster. Same with cars. And yet look at us now.

    No conservative/fundamentalist has ever invented or contributed something that has bettered mankind everywhere, unless it’s some bullshit sex drive killer product like corn flakes. The cons/fundy mindset is hostile and opposed to any type of creativity or invention. Because it has to be.

    Besides, only an atheist could invent Coke. A good Christian wouldn’t have wasted the time and been out converting souls.

    1. Note this isn’t a political rant so I don’t want to talk about people being butthurt about green policies and liberal lies or econ offshoots or whatever bullshit.

      1. I personally didn’t take it as a political rant. And I think you are right. I heard a guy on NPR this morning talking about the Tesla battery. I was glad to hear him say that if it is affordable, then the public will begin to get behind it and it will become more common.

        Case in point. I just bought my first hybrid. The technology has become affordable for me to invest in it. Since I have a 60+ mile round trip commute, battery cars are still out of the question, but who knows what the next decade will bring.

        1. On my last rip to California I stopped in at a Tesla dealer. It wasn’t test drive day, so I couldn’t take it out for a spin. I am intrigued by the Tesla, but it is a bit out of my price range. When the cost drops and the technology improves the range, I might seriously think about one.

  14. I’m curious. Since most fundies like to evangelize and do missionary work in foreign lands, how does it work with bibles translated into the local language. Obviously, they are not ‘true’ KJV. Is it okay if they were just translated from that version? Do they require a version where all the archaic language is translated to an equally archaic version of the people they’re attempting to evangelize, with verily and thou and shalt and all that? Or is quotidian language sufficient for the potential converts?

      1. I have heard that too. Is there such a thing as Terminal Stupidity? (I think there is and it is pandemic in Fundystan) Did Jesus speak English? Of course he did! It’s in a the KJB! ~{gag}~

      2. I was a missionary in South America for seven years. You don’t want to know how many times I answered the “why don’t they speak English” question, and this wasn’t always in a Fundy church.

        The other crazy question was explaining that Colombian guerrilla groups were not composed of apes. Every now and then, I just wanted to weep!

        1. Those would be the Colombian gorilla groups. Joking aside, who asked questions like that, and were they over the age of five?

      3. I was told by an adult mk who’d grown up in the South Pacific that it was a waste of money to invest in bible translation because everybody’s learning English now.

        I knew a fundy missionary couple to Madagascar whose cunning plan was to have their local translator who was teaching them the language help them to translate the KJV into the local lingo. Because the process would convert the translator and they’d be the first convert, you see.

    1. I’ve been around enough to hear several answers to this.

      1. They should learn the English language so they can read the true word of God.
      2. As long as the translation they have came from the KJV its ok.
      3. As long as the translation they have came from the masoretic texts it’s ok.

      But the dumbest one I heard (drumroll)…..
      From the pastor of the church I was attending
      4. We should just translate the sermons into their language. That would br the quickest way to get the word of God to them. Translating the whole bible would be too time consuming.

    2. At one point my fundy FIL was toying with an idea he had picked up somewhere that the KJV was not only the preserved word for English-speaking people, but for the whole world as well. Which means that while we should translate the Bible into other languages, those translations will always be inferior to the good ol’ KJV! (Just as those who don’t speak English are inferior, can I get a haymen?)
      At the time we were discussing it, he hadn’t made up his mind about it. Not sure where he stands now. Am afraid to ask.

  15. I’ve said it before, the KJV Only crowd really detracts from the Incarnation. God would go to any length–including putting on human flesh, walking around us, and dying on a cross without taking any revenge on those who crucified him–to speak to us so we could understand God’s love, grace, mercy…….but suddenly, God won’t go the distance to speak in a modern language.

  16. Well, let’s see. (Time for a micro-analysis here, macroed by your resident math maniac.)

    Jesus used the Scrolls in the Synagogues. It is possible they were the Septuagint. The Masoretic was not created/compiled at that time.

    But quoting the Scripture was a fun thing for Jesus and the Writers of Scripture. They almost NEVER got it right. They weren’t word for word. They often left stuff out. Jesus and John quoted Psalm 41:8 concerning his betrayal by Judas, calling it a prophesy — but had to leave out a crucial phrase in the middle of the passage in order to make it work! “Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.”

    “I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.” (John 13:18)

    Jesus’ quote was incomplete and out of context. We are told that Jesus knew who it was who would betray him, so there was no “familiar friend in whom I trusted” bit there. Jesus lifted what was convenient, used it and called it prophesy regarding himself.

    But Psalm 41 deals with the betrayal of David by Ahithophel (2 Samuel 15 and 16). It was never a prophesy about the Messiah. It only became one upon the writer’s insistence that it was.

    Matthew does some similarly horrid things with prophesy. For example, he records the slaughter of the innocent children and credits a passage in Jeremiah for the prophesy. But the event (slaughter) and the prophesy do not mesh at all. For what Matthew quotes (Jeremiah 31:15 quoted in Matthew 2:18) is only a partial quote, and by not being complete Matthew misses the point entirely of the Jeremiah passage.

    Matt 2:18 “In Rama there was a voice heard, lamentation and weeping and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.”

    But Bethlehem is NOT Rama. The two locations are at least 20 miles apart! The slaughter did not take place in Rama, but in Bethlehem “and in all the coasts thereof” (meaning the area around the town). Rama was much too far away to be affected.

    Strike 2. In Jeremiah 31:16 we read, “Thus said the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping and thine eyes from tears; for thy work shall be rewarded saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.”

    Whoa! Jeremiah was talking about those taken captive to Babylon, prophesying about their return! He was NOT saying that those who “were not” were murdered, since God said they would return!

    Some of the “quotations” by New Testament writers are nowhere to be found in the Old Testament. They simply do not exist. Some of the prophesies mentioned in the Acts are no more than a vague phrase of a few small words, stripped out of context and devoid of all meaning other than what the writer wished to impart.

    Talk about bad use of Scripture quoting! No wonder the Fundies get it wrong so much! They have very good bad examples. Very bad examples, indeed! Any competent literature research professor would flunk most of the New Testament writers — including Paul — for their inaccuracy and lack of relevance or connection to the original context. Possibly the writer of Hebrews would get a passing grade.

    Jude? That canonical book quotes a non-canonical book as an authoritative Source — the Book of Enoch, a fantastic and unbelievable tale! I find it amusing that should be the case.

    It is amazing that faith so blinds our eyes as to not see the shortcomings of the things we have chosen to believe. Blind faith — if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into the ditch. Well, now, I suppose they have!

    1. Having recently read Peter Enn’s The Bible Tells Me So, I have to ask: what’s the difference between Jesus’ use of midrash and any modern preacher’s use of esisgesis? Seems eerily similar.

      The Bible says and means whatever you want it to say.

      1. Maybe that’s why Jesus was so concerned with good works. I mean, he even said, “You have heard it said…but I say unto you.” The “you have heard it said” parts are in the Torah! So basically, he was contradicting the OT. You don’t hear that much from the pulpit.

        1. Is most of what is preached from the Fundy pulpit rooted in the Old Testament? Even if the text is taken from the New Testament? I admit i haven’t heard that many IFB sermons, (and those are mostly through youtube) but it seems that way from most of those I’ve looked at.

        2. They do teach the Gospel. as a way to get you “saved” so that you become a more Holy person by following the law better.

    2. Maybe Paul creatively strongarmed Matthew/Luke and Mark with their gospels…after all, he was the creative thinker of the group.

      Paul, the original Q.

    3. Fun read, rtgmath!

      It’s been a while since delved into this, but I think I recall some of the claimed quotes (“as it is written” lines in the gospels) come from the books of Enoch, which are terribly distant from current Christian cannon. Something I never about ONCE while in church, and being the kid of someone in the ministry.

    4. Dear rtgmath:

      Jesus did use the LXX. We know that.

      We also know that NT authors quoted one author but attributed that to other authors. We also figured out why. Just as some preachers have great popularity/authority in the church at some time or another, so it was with the prophets. This was done on the premise that all prophets taught the same doctrine.

      Lu 24:27 and 44 record Jesus saying that Moses and all the prophets spoke of his humiliation and exaltation. But for the life of us, we don’t know where that happened in any number of books.

      Our fundamentalist friends simply have no comprehension of what KIND of canon we have, or HOW that canon is supposed to function in the church, or how Biblical writers themselves leaned on, used and otherwise refurbished Scripture for their own theological purposes, under the Spirit’s guidance.

      Blessings!

      Christian Socialist

        1. “Church Leaders Worried Over Drop in Baptisms”

          Maybe some gloves with grips would help. ๐Ÿ˜‰

        2. Because you’re telling me not to, I will. But then you know that by telling me not to that I will, so I won’t.

          Yes, my intellect is truly dizzying after a tall glass of grape juice.

        3. Shannon H, I have to be careful I don’t drink a cup of tea while reading comments on this blog, on my iPhone. Hot brown water us not good when sprayed over it.

  17. I think Jesus would read from the KJV if He visited a KJV-only church. The problem they would have would be the verses He would choose to read and the subsequent application.

    Matthew 7:2 2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. (KJV)

    For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. (NIV)

    1. I agree with the fact Jesus would use their own preferred version to read to them….but I am wondering how welcomed he would be in a fundy world. I don’t see Jesus bending to their rules of hair lengths and clothing….I think Jesus would challenge every burden we put on each other as a requirement for holiness.

  18. Well, bless their hearts…

    Of course, I hate to guess what Jesus would do if he were here today. But if he were reading scripture, it seems like he’d probably just read from whatever translation happened to be handy. Then take the time to discuss the text so whoever he’s talking to can understand. Then maybe sit down and tell a good story that helps explain it all.

    But who knows?

        1. I second the Founder’s…especially if you’re one of the lucky few to get A bottle of Kentucky Breakfast Stout! ๐Ÿ™‚

    1. I don’t know that he’d read from any translation, given that he called himself the Word. Anything he said would therefore be the word of God. He might use a southern drawl and say all y’all, bless yer hearts!

      1. Wondering if I should post as Nash Rambler, since this is turning into another one of my theological musings. Accuracy not guaranteed and discussion much welcomed!

        Well, actually John’s Gospel calls Jesus the “Word,” but Jesus did not place that appellation on Himself. He never actually claimed to be God, either. All his claims were that God was His Father, He always did the Father’s Will and that He and the Father were One, not as in equality but united in purpose).

        The Gospels indicate that the Jews interpreted those statements as declarations of deity. I am not so sure about that. The Jews claimed that Abraham was their father, but that did not mean they claimed equivalence to Abraham or equal standing. In that culture, sons were always subordinate to the father, got authority from their father. Ultimately it was their proof of genealogy back to Abraham that they relied on for the Promises of the Blessing. Loss of genealogical records was devastating, as that excluded people. Look at the books of Ezra and Nehemiah for more understanding on that topic.

        This is not to say the Jews’ notions of theology were pure. Having lived in Babylon they picked up on a lot of Zoroastrian ideas, like demons, a powerful Devil (the Darkness being almost as powerful as the Light, a balance between good and evil, etc. ). The Gospels, and indeed the New Testament as a whole are not pure extrapolations and extensions of the Old Testament. The theology is not the Law and the Prophets plus a new ingredient — Jesus!

        I need to do more study, but I think the equivalence argument is a Greek idea. The Greek gods fathered children, some of whom became Gods themselves in competition/cooperation with their parents. While Greek was a commercial language in Israel, I am not at all sure that kind of idea had penetrated their theological idea set. The Logos argument appears to be Greek as well. The Jews did not have a theology of essence, if I remember correctly.

        It took several hundreds of years for the question of the humanity v. deity of the Lord Jesus to even pretend to be settled. That God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself was clear. That interpretations of the Scripture have varied depending on cultural concepts is also clear. The arguments often blossomed into murder. The theological consolidation of Christian doctrine is stained with the blood of those who did not agree.

        1. See, here’s how it works, Rtg. According to fundy thinking, Jesus is God. So is the Holy Spirit. The theory that the Bible is inspired by God means that Jesus is the Word because reasons. I’m only telling ya what they told me at the compound. I don’t really believe much of what they say.

          I need some more wine.

        2. Because you mentioned it, my first car was a Rambler. I bought it from a mechanic friend for $120 back in ’81. Great car, as long as I use my selective memory. Dependable and easy to work on. Except for the rust hole in the floorboard that would allow you to be drenched if you hit a puddle at speed. And the bad vacuum powered wiper motor. I used a piece of cord through the vent window to pull the wipers up, and the spring would pull them back down.

        3. I did when I found and played it on YouTube. I never would have remembered it and now it will go on my playlist, much to the chagrin of my workmates.
          Thanks for the memory jog. I have no idea how long it has been since I heard that.

        4. I disagree with you on Jesus never claiming He was God. In John’s 8th chapter He clearly states: “amen, amen legw umin, prin Abraam genesthai egw eimi” – “amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am”. That His listeners were ready to stone Him to death for blasphemy is, I daresay, proof enough.

        5. That was more of an inference than a direct statement. Still, it factors into the debate. He called Himself the “Son of Man” a lot. He talked about doing the Father’s Will. He even directly said He did nothing of His own authority, but if the Father who sent him.

          The fact is that there is enough in both directions to cause sincere and significant questions. The debates are usually settled by focusing on a very few passages, excluding others, and generally trying to excommunicate those who doubt that Jesus is God. The focus on Jesus’ deity is so strong as to almost discount His human nature–which the Scriptures assure us He had!

          I have always been taught that Jesus was God of very God. I have always accepted it. But now that I try to justify it by fairly examining all Scripture in context, it is harder to do. No wonder it took over 300 years to make the doctrine official. And no wonder that not everyone believed it, then or now.

          I am not trying to argue against the deity of Christ, please understand. But there are reasons people do. Our gut reaction to those who believe differently may reflect how mired we still are in a fundamentalist mindset.

          Just something to think about.

        6. True, Miriam, true. Thinking is discouraged. You just accept what the Pastor says, because, “Oh Pastor, you are ever so much smarter and godlier than I am!”

          Gag!

        7. One thing that used to make me steam, maybe still does :), is being told, that is a private interpretation. What isn’t?

        8. Linguists say that a language is a dialect that has an army behind it, so I guess a public interpretation is a private interpretation with an army to enforce it.

        9. The armies of Constantine turned private interpretation into orthodoxy. And wars over religious points of view have gone on in Christianity since. Truth did not prevail by force of reason, or because it was right, but by the force of the sword.

          We have forgotten this, living in lands with religious freedom now and being allowed to make our own choices as to what to believe. But orthodoxy created by fear of death should not be the standard for truth.

        10. @rtgmath: The relation of deity and humanity in Christ is a matter for a serious debate, there is no doubt here. And while I believe in Chalcedonian understanding of this matter, I acknowledge there are Churches and denominations out there, making strong case against it. So here we agree.

          As for statements of Jesus re: His relation to Father, I’m starting to think it was one of those cases where God adapts parts of His message to better fit the mindset of audience, so that its core will be better accepted. Jews hoped for new Maccabees, or, better yet, new David, uttering forth a new period of independence and prosperity on Promised Land. Instead they got a wandering rabbi with His radical reinterpretation of Law and Prophets, preaching something about “peacemakers” and “turning other cheek”, and all that in a country divided between puppets of Rome and land occupied outright.

          Jews of that place and age hoped for a fire to cleanse their homeland. Instead they got someone with a spark alright, but not exactly the Anointed they hoped for. At this point was it really necessary to explain finer points of Trinity to them, especially since they were a fiercely monotheistic people?

          While I love first chapter of John as a poem, I believe he got one thing wrong. Word came to declare and explain Father, aye, but even more so to declare and explain Law and Prophets, given to us, proper way of life we should follow and our humanity as such. I still think Scriptures do tell us Jesus understood Himself to be God and declared as much. I also understand why He would be willing to downplay this in order to better get His message about Kingdom of God across.

  19. @Catholic Gate-crasher…. I collect hymn books and have that 1940 book. I looked in it. The tune you want is called “King’sWeston”. It’s composed by Ralph Vaughan Williams. If you can’t find a youtube video under the words (“At the name of Jesus”), try under the tune name.

    1. 1940 hymnal of the Episcopal Church?

      The 1982 hymnal has “At the name of Jesus” (#435) as does the 1940. Yes, the tune is “King’s Weston.”

  20. Why do people try to conform Jesus to them? Every generation has religious people who want to prove that Jesus was like they are rather than try to be like Jesus. Jesus would have been like whatever he needed to be for the current place and time where he was. I’m fully convinced that uf Jesus had been born in today’s world that no religious people would like him. Just like no religious people liked Jesus when He was born. The religious leaders in Jesus day did like him because he was not like them. The religious leaders of today would not like Jesus because he is not like them. Its the same thing as the Pharisees yet the fundies will never see it.

    1. Nah. He used the Scriptures. He claimed authority through the Scriptures, not in place of them.

      If a person came today and made the claim that they were the Word of God so they didn’t need the Scripture, then you would know you had a false teacher.

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