192 thoughts on “English”

  1. So much for the “Biblical Authority” part of the Baptist distinctives, this statement essentially makes them no longer a Baptist church. Certainly less Baptist than my Baptistic Evangelical church with the wild heathen African music and people not dressed like they work at IBM in 1967.

    Using the Bible as your sole authority and basis for faith and practice precludes you from making shit up and putting in your so-called “doctrinal statement”

    1. Since there is nothing biblical about Sunday school, translations, old-fashioned tent revivals, or the internet, a lot of fundy preachers need to rethink how to do things.

      Whenever a MOG says he uses the Bible as the sole authority for faith and practice I want to throttle him in xian love.

    1. “At Lighthouse Baptist Church, the Lord taught me to street preach and win souls. Someone handed me Dr. Ruckman’s Manuscript Evidence which taught me that the King James Bible was the Word of God. I read everything I could get my hands on by Dr. Ruckman and Clarence Larkin.”

      A Ruckmanite…

    2. Actually, pretty close! It was “finalized” in the sense that nobody added to it for 1200 years and we have lists similar to the final set from Athanasius and others. In the 1530s, Martin Luther and the Reformers removed a chunk of what had been until that point been part of the Old Testament, calling it apocryphal. In reaction, the Catholic Church first formally defined the canon of Scripture at the Council of Trent in the 1550s.

  2. Y’all be using some big fancy words! That’s how we knows you lying! Gid never wanted folks to speak like that. Just talk normal or in ole English like the KJV, HAYMEN?

  3. I always get confused–is that blasphemy, or just heresy? Or is it both?

    Whichever it is, it disgusts me to no end. I want to make more jokes about it, but it isn’t funny. It’s absolutely unbiblical and I’m pretty sure it counts as adding to God’s Word, which is expressly condemned.

    1. I would generally go with heresy. It angers me though when they move beyond that and begin calling other translations works of the devil. In my opinion, it moves at that point from heresy to blasphemy.

    2. Just bad theology. A key question is whether they are being willfully obdurate. If they can’t help being pig-ignorant, then God can’t very well blame them for it–in fact it’s his fault for making them so stupid. But if they really know better, then we have to ask about their motives. Many people (not just here) accept what to them are questionable details of theology, as the price of belonging to the group.

        1. Miriam, your comment reminds me of an English comedian who was asked by a friend “Eric, do you mind if I use your lawnmower?” “You can go ahead and use it ” said the comedian ” as long as you don’t take it out of my garden”

  4. I think I may have heard this argument before. But it was for a different language and a much earlier translation.
    It didn’t make sense when the Catholic church argued it back during the reformation and it doesn’t make sense now.

  5. It’s interesting that you all take so much effort to criticize my church, and the very Word of God preached there, preserved in the Authorized KJV.

    Oh yes. And the horrible attack on King James accusing him of being a Sodomite. You all are vile, hell-bound sinners. All of you.

    1. Ok he wasn’t bisexual, but he burped at the dinner table. Pick a sin. The KJV wasn’t “Authorized” by Jesus Christ – it was authorized by a sinful man.

    2. Independent Thinker – While I think you might be poe, I will humor you just for a moment in case you are not.

      No one has criticized your church. Yet.

      But give us time. We’ll get around to the church. I am sure of it.

    3. Just in case you’re not a Poe:

      1) It doesn’t take much effort to criticize that.

      2) I, for one, am not hell-bound, but I suppose that’s because Christ saved me, not another man.

        1. Presuming of course that Hell, Michigan isn’t so attractive that you just stay there.

        2. I’m so saved, I’d bounce right off the force field at the town limits, hay-man!

    4. Independent Thinker,
      Jesus (the one who spoke Hebrew and Greek) hates you. He told me so. If you don’t believe me, I have it on a tract I wrote. And in case you want to verify the truthfulness of the tract, it is in English… therefore, it just be true.
      The end.

        1. There’s a kosher beer named He-brew.

          Oh crap, I’m probably damned to an eternity in hell too. I wonder if “filthy soldomite” is still available as a screen name.

        2. I thought alcohol was automatically kosher. Although there was a dispute in Poland over this awhile back. (Catholic Poles began showing a preference for “kosher wine” for some reason, leading to a dispute between two rabbis over whether this branding was acceptable.)

  6. Why do people who believe that the KJV is the only true translation not talk in daily life reflective of this perfect language? Is it not relevant for sermons and conversations with friends and family? Would it not encourage others to read the KJV? Wouldn’t people ask, “Why do you talk like that?” then they could answer why? I suggest every KJV Onlyist immediately start talking in King James English.

    1. Shannon,
      Very good point. If it is so easy, we should all speaketh thusly. However, King James Onlyists refuse to acknowledge that language is fluid. It is not a love for the Word of God, but for tradition.
      Mark 15:6-9
      So for the sake of your traditions you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you , when he said:
      “This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vein they do worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.”

    2. What thou sayth doth be so trueth in all statements as so expressed by thee. Wouldst thou now cometh forth with me to partake of the cup of the little black bean (coffee)?

        1. Arr….me hearties….mock me intelligence again and I’ll make ye walk the plank!

    3. I met a guy once who would only speak in verses from the King James. Everything he said, absolutely everything, was a verse from the King James. It was really really strange.

      1. My grandfather prayed in King James. But he was not a King James Only guy. He studied from several versions. I think it was his own personal way to uniquely give honor to God. He never advised anyone else to do it and never tried to defend it with Scripture. Perhaps we can just call it style.
        As for myself, I like the NET. I pray in ‘Murcan.

  7. I’m not sure if I’m confused or if the author of that statement is confused (well, I know the author of that statement is confused, but that’s not what I mean). What is a “future extant text?”

    1. Daniel, that’s what Iwas wondering! Mabe they’re concerned about some time traveller going back and planting some more Dead Sea Scrolls somewhere?

    2. Oh, the author is confused alright. He has no idea what he has written, why it is so outrageous, or that it is rank heresy. He believes! Isn’t that enough? It doesn’t matter that he is wrong. Very Wrong!

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers

      Mandarin is the most-used language, at 14.4%
      Spanish at 6.15%
      English comes in third, at 5.43%

      English is hardly the Universal Language. And these nutjobs are part of the reason I can never, ever again be a fundy.

      The IFB church I went to was never KJV-only. But they send young people to Pensacola. So they support KJV-onlyism. That’s a heresy. It is a focus on minutia instead of the gospel. It is a power trip.

      KJV-onlyism cost me my family — my parents and sister. I became anathema, a heretic because my wive gave me a bible that wasn’t KJV. Imagine sacrificing one’s family over such nonsense!

      Fundamentalism is fundamentally a tyranny of the mind and heart. Everything is subservient to “doctrine.” Nothing else matters. For God you must be willing to sacrifice your children, slaughter innocent people, and condemn people to hell for not believing your hate-filled message. You must think of God in the most inane terms. Your understanding and yours alone is perfect and determines the fate of the universe.

      Their hubris is breathtaking. So much ignorance packed into so small a mind.

      1. rtgmath, your story distresses me greatly. It is so sad that anyone would let a book- even if it is a Bible- destroy what should be loving relationship. Family members, your wife, your children- This is NOT what Jesus came to do. Division amongst his followers is terrible, and that it should happen over a translation- and a not terribly good one at that- is simply WRONG.

        I pray for you often. Not just that those around you would see how they misuse the Word, but also that you should have peace and support in the meantime.

        1. Matt 10:14 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.”
          I don’t know, is this what Jesus came to do? Another contradiction.

        2. You know Miriam, I thought about that verse. However, I always understood that passage to indicate divisions between believers and unbelievers- not within the body of Christ itself. From what rtgmath has indicated, it appears that his family members believe in Christ, and his redemption- I don’t think that they are not Christians. Why should Christ come to divide his own> Why should he want the Christ to turn and attack itself? Would her really want families torn apart because of their interpretations of him?

        3. Being the heretic I am, I wonder why there needs to be anything that divides, why there needs to be distinctions. Can we not agree to disagree, can we not do this in love? I know what I used to believe this meant but now I think the earth could do with more tolerance, not less.

        4. I am with you on this. The problems within my family have always distressed me. And for many years people kept telling me to reach out to them to try to heal the divisions.

          The problems were long and complex. Essentially, I held the role of the scapegoat. If anything went wrong, it was my fault. Trouble between me and my sister? My fault. Something go wrong somewhere I had nothing to do with? My fault anyway. Over the years imaginary offenses were added into the mix. I would be accused of saying such and such a month earlier. Never happened, but it was “true” anyway. I always had to be the one to seek reinstatement and reconciliation. I was always the focus of an Angry God, even if it was family.

          Even moving away, going to college, marrying and having a family didn’t change my role. Not even covering expensive medical costs for my mother over an extended period until military benefits kicked in helped to give me a place.

          After a letter from my sister accusing me of particularly horrible abuse when we were young (again, never happened) I wrote back and said that while I could be sorry for things I had done, I couldn’t take responsibility for the things I hadn’t. And if we couldn’t come to a place of forgiveness and acceptance, then I didn’t have a family. I begged for reconciliation. (I have another sister who tells me that the younger sister had made those same accusations years earlier about my dad. Now I was the culprit.)

          My mom wrote back, “You say you don’t have a family. Your choice, not ours.” And that was it. I tried to call two years later, but my dad answered, hung up on me, and promptly changed the phone to an unlisted number.

          I did an obituary/death search some time back and found my mom died on Valentines Day, 2006. She had been dead for 4 years when I discovered it. My sister (unmarried spinster) still lives with dad at home. I discovered she had a prominent role in an AWANA ministry at an IFB-style church.

          I do think that mental illness played a factor in the destruction of my family. But fundamentalism was easily woven into the fabric of mental illness. My mom (and so my family) were devotees of conspiracy theories, the John Birch Society, KJV-onlyism, and a host of other idiocies designed to raise your blood pressure. KJV-onlyism was one of many triggers. Innocent interactions were imbued with complex deviousness and malice. It’s no wonder I fit into the IFB so well. What *IS* a wonder is that I managed to escape!

          Ultimately, faced with no legacy from my parents, I had to create my own. My parents both came from hard circumstances. They tried to make life better for their children than what they’d had, but they could only move so far from the attitudes and circumstances they had grown up in. I believe they loved me as best as they were able. Fundamentalism robs people of that ability, as many of you know! So I chose to sort the bad from the good, keep the good qualities, try to leave the bad behind while forgiving them for it.

          There has been moderate success in that. I know that some things I have never been able to escape fully. But I have made life for my children better than I had it. I gave them freedom to express themselves in ways I never had. I have made my own unique mistakes, but at least I can say I was not arbitrarily controlled by my past.

          I apologize for the horrible history. I find that being open with it helps me understand me better and clarifies a lot of issues. And it may give you some insights into quirks of my personality that may have puzzled some of you. Finally, some of you can relate, even if you can’t bring yourself to share so openly.

      2. rtg,
        Isn’t that list by number of “native” speakers? Wouldn’t that 5.43% be much larger if all speakers were taken into account? English does very significantly impact our world. Not disagreeing with your larger point……

        the Admiral

        1. Total speakers (and that includes badly mangled) puts both English and Mandarin at about 1 billion. It improves the 5.43% by a factor of three.

          That still leaves 84% without access to the Scriptures, by their reckoning. And if you have to learn English, particularly 18th century English to understand the 1789 version commonly used in order to get saved, isn’t that a violation of the “not of works” provision?

          Theology that easily condemns the vast majority of Eternal Beings (humans included) to an eternity of torture must be suspect. Regarding others as worthless but yourself as precious is a mark of depravity.

      3. Mandarin may a larger number of native speakers, depending on what we mean. (Can we count Indian English, Malaysian / Singaporean English, or the various forms of African English as “native”?) However, English has much more of a geographic spread, and has become the de facto language of international communication. Go ahead–spin the globe, put your finger down at random (repeat until you hit land), and ask yourself whether English or Chinese would be more useful there!

        1. Well, the world has more languages than we like to consider. That is why there are ministries that strive to translate the bible in every current language. English and Manderin might get a handful, but human geography is just so complex. Let’s follow the Bible’s example (using the language of the people of where they are) instead of choosing one language. Greek was very common in Is real and surrounding 2000 years ago, but language is fluid. Paul spoke Hebrew when the situation called, but wrote in Greek. I’m a bit rusty in my history of Italy, but I am guessing Paul used Latin when that suited the people.

      4. English moves up to second place when looking at total speakers, not just native speakers. Depending on which study you look at, it’s either right ahead or right behind Spanish on native speakers, but English as a second language is WAY more common than Spanish as a second language.

        1. That doesn’t change the fact that any fundamentalist who claims the KJB is the *only* true word of God is talking through his fundament.

        2. Total speakers is somewhat misleading, though.

          First, it says nothing about proficiency. A person who can hold up a carved elephant and say “for you, ten dolla” would be considered an English speaker.

          Second, most non-native English speakers are not English readers. To be honest, the functional illiteracy rate in the U.S. Is terribly high. Not even most native speakers of English can handle the KJV. That is a fact.

          One reason the KJV is so popular here in the U.S. Is because it is cheap. The copyright has long expired and they can be churned out on cheap paper for a small profit each. Give them to kids as awards! They get bumped and torn, dropped on the ground, and spilled on. But most kids with those cheap Bibles can’t read them. So what good are they?

          Other translations are relatively expensive. Translation is expensive and those costs are factored into the work.

          So the big issue is literacy, not just the ability to speak the language. Suddenly the original 5.43% of native speakers begins to look too optimistic.

          If Salvation is through the KJV only, then God is cruel, offering it to only a small part of the world instead of all.

          In all of human history, indeed for most of bible history, God’s Word was the message. There was no Bible. There were books–maybe. But people told orally what they had heard, were taught. “The Word of the Lord” came to the prophets not as text, but a voice or a thought bringing a message.

          The whole basis of KJV-onlyism is ignorance of what the Scriptures say about themselves. Even if everyone in the world could speak and read Elizabethian English, there would be no Scrptural basis for claiming the KJV is IT.

      1. You have Illustrious Woman points? Who told you about those? You’re not on the list. I am THE Illustrious Woman, and I did not bequeath you any points.

  8. “…those who advocate that the KJV has exclusive rights to being called the Holy Bible are always, curiously, English-speaking people (normally isolated Americans). Yet, Martin Luther’s fine translation of the Bible into German predated the KJV by almost 100 years. Are we so arrogant to say that God has spoken only in English? …”

    I would encourage KJV Onlyists to read this article:
    https://bible.org/article/why-i-do-not-think-king-james-bible-best-translation-available-today then submit your educated rebuttals.

  9. One could argue that English couldn’t truly be called a universal language until after World War II. I’m going to use Fundy Logic and assert that the Revised Standard Version is our final authority since it’s original publication (1946) coincides with the emergence of English as the lingua franca of the “Last Days”. I believe I have as much evidence for my claim as they do for theirs.

    1. Agreed. Until our language changes again. I like the NET and that is my final authority. Ok, sometimes the NASB. If I took the time to learn Greek and Hebrew, I’d try them. But I am happy that scholars have done their Blessed work by translating the best they can.

  10. Something I’ve always noticed. Why does it seem that 95% of all fundies that hold a legitimate secular undergraduate degree either majored in accounting or engineering? Few history majors, doctors, attorneys, arts and sciences, etc. What is it about these two particular learning mindsets that make one susceptible to being sucked into the world of fundy foolishness like this?

    .

      1. You are right. I guess addition and subtraction and calculus remain constant and rarely require one to think out of the box. But even so, you would think the few general education classes these guys had would have forced them to actually think for themselves instead of believing anything that Peter Ruckman says. What a joke.

        I don’t even know how to debate these kinds of arguments for KJVO. They aren’t even an incorrect interpretation of facts. They actually make their “facts” up, and nobody apparently told them that they aren’t entitled to their own set.

        FYI, genius. Approximately 75% of the world’s population doesn’t speak English at all. I guess we have different definitions of “universal.”

        1. And by at all, I mean AT ALL…not a word, not even as a second language. 25% includes those that speak it as a first or second language.

        2. KJV Onlyists often label those who disagree with them as “Bible Correctors”. I’ve often thought that it is the KJV Onlyist who wants to correct the embarrassing fact that God originally revealed Himself to brown-skinned people who didn’t speak a word of English. If the KJV is your ultimate authority, then God properly delivered his final revelation to the “correct” people, Protestant white men.

  11. Funny true story. A South American man was trapped in a cave. It was filling with water and in desperation the authorities asked for the help of an expert cave diver who happened to be an American. The diver made it to the cave and was able to get in…he shone a light around.

    ( Keep in mind the man has been trapped for several days.)

    Trapped man sees the light. “….God?”

    Then the diver called out “Are you alright?”

    Trapped Man: .”God….is an American?”

  12. Nothing says a “fundamental” i.e. basic, foundational, essential element of the Christian faith like ” By this we mean that the Authorized Version preserves the very words of God in the form in which He wished them to be represented in the universal language of these last days: English. The Bible supersedes any extant Greek or Hebrew text, including any future extant texts.”

    So….are they going to cancel all missions and replace them with “teach those eeeevil heathens in Mexico or Rome to speak the King’s English so they can be saved and turned into Walmart-shoppin’ McD’s eatin’ KJV totin’ ‘Muricans” ?

    1. My sister and her husband have invested more than 35 years working with Wycliffe Bible Translators. Were those years wasted? Worse, have they duped the Kouya people of the Ivory Coast into reading a False Bible that will only lead them to Hell?

  13. The more I think of it, the more enraged I become. What arrogance King James Only cultists have! To claim that one translation is inerrant and inspired despite the evidence! It reminds me of when the Catholic Church thought the Latin bible was good enough despite what the majority spoke.

  14. Personally, I feel that the idea of preservation would mean that God uses gifted people to produce translations that are understandable to the majority of readers or listeners in any given culture, especially as His will is accomplished through the spread of the gospel into more and more diverse people groups – His word dynamically preserved (rather than statically preserved). I used to attend KJV only church in the mountains of north Georgia. I was an AWANA leader who, if I followed the rules, would force bus kids from the hollows to memorize from the KJV. To these kids, the Bible was not God’s word preserved , it was God’s word unintelligible. What kind of message does that convey to these “bus” kids and their families?

  15. “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say,” Nothing of import because it’s not in English.

    ‘MURICA!!!!
    KJV!!!
    APPLE PIE!!!

  16. LOOK THIS UP. “Dr” Norris Belcher from church of the open door in Westminster Maryland actually preached a sermon titled ‘Shut up (or hush ), you don’t speak Greek!’. From what I remember his main message was urging people to study ONLY from the KJV. He mocks people who dive deeply into historical language and usage. Check it out.

  17. “By this we mean that the Authorized Version preserves the very words of God in the form in which He wished them to be represented in the universal language of these last days: English.”

    If this isn’t an example of loving the letter of the law more than the spirit…I don’t know what is. Its all about the form and has nothing to do with whether people understand it.

    The cult of the KJV Bible is also an example of idolatry. The form of their god is more important than anything–it must be KJV 1611. And the words they use to describe it–inerrant, infallible…words which should only be used about God. The KJV 1611 is their deity.
    The Bible has been preserved until it reached its final form? I have never heard any of the verses they cite as being used to say the Bible would have a final form.

    1. That’s because Satan is clever! He made sure to leave those verses in as to keep people from getting suspicious! They took the time to “erase” all those other verses that are “missing” but wanted to leave a few things to look legit. And the Dead Sea scrolls? Satanic space aliens left them to confuse us!

      But really, the level of paranoia KJO people have is pretty crazy. I have yet to find a scholarly work that can stand up to scrutiny that defends the KJO position. All I have found is amateur anti-intellectual books that spout Westboro Baptist-style crazy hate towards those that know history.

  18. Listen here, thou verminist offscouring of the earth! King Jimmy’s Authorized Version is just that, AUTHORIZED! That, in and of itself proves its authenticity. If that doesn’t break through your cold, darkened, evil, wicked, coldened and dark hearts, then there is no hope. It’s hopelessly hopeless and void of hope!

    By your liberal and godless way of thinking you have led many simple minds down the path of relying on old and dusty Greek and Hebrew texts which, according to Bro. Black, are inadequate in light of what has proved to be already adequate in what has already been proven as AUTHORIZED. I stop my ears at any mention of anything that smacks of non-English, such as the inferior ancient languages.

    It’s so simple that even a child can understand, and yet harbour not the heart of a child all of you!

  19. The idea that the Bible is only truly available to English speakers is absurd but many evangelicals want to take what seems to work in the states and bring it lock, stock and barrel into a new culture. I can still hear the echoes of “mutig AWANA steht, fest, treu und unbewegt…”

  20. I was a real asshat to you guys on here before so I wish to apologize for my asshatolatry I just posted this in the “about” section but putting it here too as I’m sorry for my behavior as a lunatic so feel free to to use me as an example and the included pic of my car and the ultra tacky stickerage, I was sincere I can say that much but no excuse for my lunacy

    I was as extreme as it gets, a KJV ONLYIST, YOUNG EARTH CREATIONIST, GEOCENTRIST and realizing The Bible teaches Ancient Hebrew cosmology of FLAT EARTH.

    I probably know The Bible better than your pastor, it’s what all my time was spent on last few years and I really sincerely believed it every word. I had 30+ bumper stickers promoting “Christ or Hell ” YEC Geocentric, KJV anti evolution etc etc. I bought old Gideons KJV bibles off ebay to give to people along with chick tracts to let everybody know they are wicked evil sinner guilty of being born.

    I know all the argument for and against the positions and I was a loyal apologist, I’m probably a street preacher’s worse nightmare now and may send them crying to their mommy with their “faith” in shreds.

    I could not have believed this stuff any more and could not have been any more zealous yet then realized it just isn’t true.

    All you have to do is stop for a second and allow the possibility in your mind that perhaps the ” supposed contradictions” in The Bible are actual contradictions and that Robert Price, Richard Carrier, and Bart Ehrhman have valid arguments. Imagine then what “Christianity” would look like if was just manmade with no holy spirit” leading anybody and you see that is exactly what Christianity actually looks like

    “Christian guy” think about it how many denominations there are and how that simply proves John 16: 13 false and 1 Cor 14:33 false, all you gotta do is compare the Bible with reality within Christianity and easy to see is what you would expect if it is just manmade.

    Street preachers most zealous can yell in a bullhorn at people at the beach or wherever and be living by the book 24-7 and yet cannot ever lay hands on and heal a single person on the spot when according to Jesus Christ they are supposed to Mark 16:18, go look at Ray Comfort’s evangelism stuff motto Mark 16:15 as an order to all Christians yet the 16:18 is ignored because none of them can actually heal anybody ever. The Bible never said that after Jesus, Peter, Paul, that healing would stop when preaching and yet ask a streetpreacher and the “excuse is the healings stopped when Bible was finished and “those “miracles” were only for 1st century

    Compare the average Christian life with how the new testament says Christians will be led by “Spirit” and see it just is not true.

    apologists claim that you got your conscience, your knowledge of basic right and wrong from the “God” of the Bible who is supposed to be Jesus Christ front to back and yet Old Testament morality violates that conscience over and over with activity ordered by that “God”. apologists brush it off as “Old Testament ” while same time saying God cannot lie, doesn’t change and ignoring that Hebrews 13:8 has Jesus Christ supporting all the OT stuff that goes against your conscience while then contradicting it all with sermon on mount.

    Once you shake the mindset of needing the Bible to be the inerrant infallible word of God, you will see that hell is no more a threat that Darth Vader sending you to the deathstar

    What solidified it for me as completely fake, when having severe doubts and interacting with the persons associated with the KJV YEC Geocentric basically people who were 24-7 Bible people, all of them accused me of never having believed, being a fraud, a devil possessed, a CIA plant a Jesuit, a wicked evil devil not just possessed but an actual devil, when the actual truth was I was a true believer as zealous as claimed and seeing that all of these people who follow that Bible literally as possible and yet no “Holy Spirit” was around to tell any of them they were wrong in accusations it showed me John 16:13 completely false and all the arguments against Christianity are actually true.

    This is what I use to drive around in 2,000 to 3,000 miles per month back and forth Richmond, VA to D.C.
    http://s7.postimg.org/j1gmtgz9n/bumper_010.jpg

    My “born again” experience did change me but I think it was just the start of a religious psychological simulacrum and I had the personality type susceptible to it. If I had been in Pakistan would have been Muslim for same reason I suppose. A Christian with zeal is annoying at most not physically dangerous had I been muslim would probably killed somebody.

    I see now how religion had it’s time when society needed it but now it’s just…. stupid.

    After being a young earth creationist I still see design in nature I just do not know who done it and sure do not believe whoever created really cares if I watch the Kate Upton Cat Daddy video

    1. Brian, with all my heart, your apology is accepted. And believe me, I understand where you are coming from and the shock of what you are seeing.

      I hope you will take some time to reflect. The Scriptures are not inerrant, true. There is still value in them, even if only to help us understand how they are abused today and used to hurt instead of heal.

      In any case, healing will take a long time. Expect it. You can vent here.

      Can we be friends?

    2. Once you shake the mindset of needing the Bible to be the inerrant infallible word of God, you will see that hell is no more a threat that Darth Vader sending you to the deathstar

      No, that does not follow.

      After being a young earth creationist I still see design in nature I just do not know who done it
      I sincerely doubt that. In fact, I sincerely doubt you can define “design”.

      1. People think they see design when they are seeing the results of a random optimization process. Even dealing with randomness, constraints can produce fascinating results.

        Creationists have often pointed to snowflakes as an example of design, but the shape, the symmetry and complexity have nothing to do with some deliberate process. Chemistry and physics are quite sufficient.

      2. As for Hell, I have sincere doubts with very good reasons back of them. I have yet to be able to find someone to defend the fundamentalist/orthodox viewpoint of hell who will do so honestly and answer my questions. I have never been nasty about it, but when faced with questions they could not answer, debaters on the topic have levied very nasty attacks on me in the past.

        I have not completely dismissed Hell. But there are good reasons to wonder about orthodox interpretations.

        1. Why would there be no mention of Hell in the Old Testament? Why did God not give Adam that very important information? Why were blessings and punishments in the OT all physical and in this life and never a mention of Heaven or Hell as a destination? Why is “God is not willing that any should perish” less important than the idea that God will save only a remnant while He trashed the Vast Majority of Zhis Creation? Why does small, temporally-bound sin merit eternal torture, especially if God made us the way we are? If God is God then He could make the Rules any way he Chose. If God knew Adam and Eve would fail, why did He set up the test? Why assume Adam and Eve would operate with any mentality more than a child? He made the serpent, why shouldn’t they have trusted it? After all, they had no knowledge of evil! What justice is actually involved in Hell? What about those who have never heard the gospel? What about those whose experience with the gospel message is hurt and abuse? Why should they believe? What about babies? What about Jesus’ analogy to the trash pit in the Kidron(IIRC) Valley? How do His statements indicate eternal suffering of ever person who goes to hell? (Careful on that one!)

          I could go on. But the answers are never good and often contradictory to other principles of Scripture. In short, Hell is as iffy a doctrine as is pre-tribulation rapture+millennial kingdom with renewed Sacrifices at the Temple.

      3. Dear Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist and rgtmath:

        When someone posts an address and phone number — supposedly of a family member — on an internet church guestbook, is that stupidity by accident or by design?

        Christian Socialist

        1. Well, I suppose it could be accidental. But I doubt it.

          Of course, with a lot of people in Fundamentalism there is still an appalling lack of understanding of the internet. In fact, only about six years ago a prominent Congressman was describing it as a series of “pipes.” That says a lot. I still think a lot of people are complete novices without understanding of the implications of what they do.

          Then, too, there are people like me who have these fits of complete openness. I have given out my cell number to my students on the first day of classes for lots and lots of years. Thousands of students have been given that number. Alas, no Sweet Young Things have ever used it for naughty purposes. Of course, my students would never think of such things — at least with me!

          But most of the time I would think that someone posting an address and phone number of a person NOT themselves is a malicious act. Even if it is a family member — well, I have seen some pretty intense family disputes.

        2. I see the prayer request you are referencing. The lady says she and her brother are 72 years old. Giving the phone number for her brother online is almost certainly an “innocent” action. I don’t know too many people that age who really understand the ramifications of giving out such information.

          What is really bad is not that she posted her brother’s phone number — but the church left the message up without editing it out. Then again, the church isn’t well established. It meets in a house, so it is really small. That they have a “webmaster” sounds impressive, but it looks like a package you can copy and paste the formats onto and forget about it.

    3. Dear Brian:

      Jesus said the Spirit would guide us into all truth. Something has been put into motion the meaning of which would unfold and become clear only across time. From that perspective, inerrancy rather misses the point.

      I’ve never figured out how to dispense with religion; but then, I see religion rather differently than some.

      The older I become, the less problem I have believing that God exists; the more problem I have believing that God is just. I’m just guessing here, but I suspect that rgtmath’s head may be nodding …

      I’m glad to hear from you. There are some good minds here; mine may not be one of them, but they’re here. I hope you stick around. For some who use it, this little blog has blessed restorative power…

      Christian Socialist

      PS:Jesus said the Spirit would guide us into all truth. Something has been put into motion the meaning of which would unfold and become clear only across time. From that perspective, inerrancy rather misses the point.

      I’ve never figured out how to dispense with religion; but then, I see religion rather differently than some.

      The older I become, the less problem I have believing that God exists; the more problem I have believing that God is just. I’m just guessing here, but I suspect that rgtmath’s head may be nodding …

      I’m glad to hear from you. There are some good minds here; mine may not be one of them, but they’re here. I hope you stick around. For some who use it, this little blog has blessed restorative power…

      Christian Socialist

      PS: I have no idea who Kate Upton is. We do have Uptons in my locality; they’re good, church-going Lutherans. Among them is Brian, Executive Director for ‘Building Hope in the City.’ So far as I know, no local Uptons plaster their vehicles with religious bumper stickers.

      1. You are right, my friend. I have a problem seeing God as Just. That fuels my desire to be able to unbelieve. A God Who is not just is little more than a monster. But I haven’t been able to unbelieve. It causes some severe distress.

    4. Brian, thank you for your apology. It appears to be authentic, and I’m sure that the community here appreciates it.

      After I left Fundystan, it took me 18 years to sort out my feelings about God and organized religion. I’m not certain that I have finished that process, but I am on my way. I have, at time, thought of myself as an optimistic agnostic. I don’t *know* anything about God. I don’t *know*, in the same way that I know this computer exists, or that I have three children, or that my James loves me. There is so much about the universe that I don’t know, and that indeed is unknowable. How can I possibly have such hubris as to presume to think that I know God? It’s ridiculous!

      I’m Episcopalian now, and one of the best things about the ECUSA is that doubters are welcome. Questioning is a good thing, and you don’t get thrown out for asking difficult questions (like I got thrown out of a confirmation/catechism class for).

      I don’t know- but I prefer to behave as if it were true. Call it hedging my bets if you must, but even if I’m wrong, being obedient to the words that were written down and attributed to a guy named Jesus doesn’t hurt me, and probably does some good in the world. And frankly, I think that in a way, that is faith. Choosing to do it anyway.

      Look for what brings you peace. Look for what brings you joy. Really, not much more than that is important.

      1. Oh, I very much believe Brian’s apology is authentic. Betrayal and rejection by a cult with all sorts of spurious accusations will shock a person into awareness. Brian had questions, and those legitimate questions got him burned by those who were supposed to be leaders in the Faith.

        When Your World turns against you, you *have* to question even more. What is there that they are so afraid of? What possible knowledge could destroy what they “believe”?

        This is one of the Flags of Fake the current climate change denialism is planting. They are trying to squelch the discussion, make climate change illegal to discuss or even to use the term! True knowledge doesn’t act that way, so it points out the intellectual poverty of their position and their moral evil as they put profits above people.

        For all that scientists are against teaching Creationism in the classroom as an actual scientific alternative, they have never resorted to this. The objection has always been to teaching anti-scientific attitudes and the ideas that nothing else is to be gained by investigation as science.

        But the clash of ideologies is strong. Ultimately, fundamentalism is headed toward its own variant of Wahhabism.

  21. “. . . universal language of these last days: English.”

    People who go on about the End Times, generally have a loathing of certain things that are considered universal.

    For example the Metric System, it’s a funny coincidence that I’ve heard Fundies say that they want to hold on tight to the English System of Weights and Measures, in opposition to the Metric System, because of One-World Government and stuff.
    Really, they just don’t like change, and what inconvenience that may bring.

    It sounds like hubris talking about the “Last Days”, and then be all so excepting of “the universal language”.

    Sorry, funny free association with words.

  22. “Until it reached us in its final form” – wow. Such assumptions — that God’s Word went through “various generations and languages” until it reached its “final form” in 1611. Why could the Word be translated before but frozen at that point in time?

  23. So, if as many demographers predict, Spanish becomes the dominant language of the US in the next couple hundreds of years, God’s Word won’t exist?

  24. Lunacy! I tell you, this is lunacy! (Big smile.) As if this is surprising to anyone. But they said it, so I assume they think it is true. And the fun part is that this is the very definition of self-serving madness, the repetition of nonsense. And I get to witness it from the catbird seat.

  25. Why isn’t the KJV Bible written in Mandarin Chinese? Almost 1 billion people speak it, making it the number language in the world. If one wanted to reach the world this would be the language to use.

  26. “Now to the later we answere; that wee doe not deny, nay wee affirme and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set foorth by men of our profession (for wee have seene none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. ”

    From the Translators to the Reader, Preface, King James Version, 1611.

    1. The note to the readers is awesome, and I’m very sad that I never heard of it until I was well into adulthood. I’d been raised KJV-only (to the point that I was shocked when the guy I had started dating at BJU pulled out a NASB during a Sunday AM service). The preface to me blew holes in the “only the KJV is inspired” nonsense that I was taught.

  27. If English is God’s chosen language, why wasn’t it one of the tongues created at the Tower of Babel? Why condemn people to inferior, faulty, versions of His inspired word for so many centuries? How many people went to hell because God was forced to inspire people who wrote in flawed languages like Aramaic and Hebrew? Is God like George Lucas, issuing one “revised” edition after another, and then claiming the new editions are his “original intent” but he was limited by the tools available at the time? Will we someday see t-shirts reading “Judas Kissed First!”

  28. Dear Darrell …

    Aaaaaah … who speaks seventeenth century English?

    Christian Socialist

    PS: WHICH of those verses says that a translation supersedes the original text? Does God say so, or is that a ‘man-made’ doctrine?

    PPS: Culture and language are never static. Since language and culture change constantly, any text communicates to culture different meaning than it did centuries ago. Unless your text changes, it communicates what earlier translation neither meant nor intended to say. What mechanisms do you have to ensure that our culture hears the meaning those words proclaimed 400 years ago, rather than the meaning those words express todAY?

    1. For a bunch that claims to take seriously the things of their deity, why do they not capitalize the word referring to their holy book?

      1. CIBC means Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce to me. I trust them much more that I trust this church. I would have continued to read this contorted piece of…..art, *accept* it was messing with my OCD too much. I guess it was *past down* from my mother who liked us to use words that meant what we were trying to say.

        1. Lady Semp, did you mean to put redundant to show that you meant ridiculous because, CIBC?

    2. We know that the King James is the only true word of GOD, because this is the only Bible that each perverted Bible tries to place doubt by changing the wording, omitting words or phases or adding words that changes the meaning or context of the scriptures.

      The lack of any attempt at logical thought is exasperating. The users of the Geneva and Bishop’s Bibles quite possibly used these same arguments a few hundred years ago. If you read and study translation history, you will see that many KJVO arguments do follow the same lines of reasoning used by other translation adherents at that time.

      1. What cracks me up is that if you buy this bill of goods, the Catholics are wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong, and bent on being Satan’s servants and destroying God’s Word. Until they declare Origen, or some other person who agrees with us to be a heretic. Then they are the church, which declared what is orthodox and preserved the faith.

        Bottom line- Agreement with us is all that matters. If you agree with us, it’s evidence you’re right. If not, you must be wrong.

        1. Yes, those who disagree with you are always either willing tools of Satan, haters of Truth, deceived thinking they are actually serving God and Truth, etc. It all depends. In any case, those who disagree with you are going to hell. Just as they think you are going to hell.

          The Holy Spirit has led you into all truth, but it has led them nowhere. Differences in doctrine are due to sin in the heart preventing the Holy Spirit from doing His Work (as if anything could actually stop God?). Everybody has sin in their heart, so they are sinners. But you have confessed yours and been forgiven so you don’t and aren’t. No. Of course they haven’t confessed their sin! We just know. Quit questioning so much!

          Rhetoric and recriminations are always useful as a tool to keep people from thinking or from examining what they are told. And you can prove anything from Scripture.

  29. Can anyone explain what they mean by this?

    “Prior to the King James Bible there was no formalize written text of scripture accept for the Old Testament which was contained in the Torah written in Hebrew and was in the procession of the Jewish nation which is Israel.”

    1. I think it means someone got their hands on a thesaurus or dictionary, but didn’t know how to correctly spell the words they found, or the definition of them. If they mean what the wrote, it seems to indicate they thing the 1st 5 books of the bible were written in Hebrew (and that the nation of Israel secretly existed between 70AD & 1611 AD), and then the rest was written by the King James translators.

        1. I think they meant “former” as in like a text like Q or something that the authors pulled from, but they mangled it so badly, that they could mean no formally written text.

    2. Malapropisms galore!

      Maybe?

      “Prior to the King James Bible there was no formalize [formal] written text of scripture accept [except] for the Old Testament which was contained in the Torah written in Hebrew and was in the procession [possession] of the Jewish nation which is Israel.”

      It is still garbage. The Masoretic was, like the English and other texts, in constant development over the years. Between 200 and 1525 the Hebrew text was “cleaned up” by removing scribal notes, adding vowel signs and making sure words were correctly parsed. But the canon was complete by 200 and not limited to the five Books of Moses. Evidently the Jews didn’t have a jot and tittle fetish, since they fixed those they thought were wrong, changed some words to attempt to be more reverent to God (as if the Scriptures weren’t reverent enough!), minimize references to other gods, etc. A version was finished by 1525 and was the source for the KJV Old Testament translators.

      In any case, even that has not stopped scholars from making further refinements, investigating source texts and critiquing older decisions.

      The garbage is an attempt to sound scholarly to uneducated ears.

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