242 thoughts on “Biblically Burning Beards”

  1. Why would anyone block you, Darrell? I’m shocked.

    I’m guessing you must be the subject of much gossip, er, “prayer requests” in certain quarters.

  2. I don’t understand why a fundy would be acquainted with a lighter. How can you separate from the evils of tobacco if you have a lighter? What if someone is looking for God and sees you buying a cigarette lighter at the convenience store while you pay for your gas? I mean, you might be all there is between that person and hell, and yet you buy a lighter and that person never gets saved because you aren’t separate and holy enough.

    1. When PCC found a box of firecrackers & a lighter in the trunk of my car in the 90s they wanted to know if I was using it to smoke! It’s such a lunkhead to be able to add those 2 things together and come up with cigarettes!

        1. No, but were going to give me the heave ho anyway, so there wasn’t any benefit to saying no. Was better off in life wrapping my experience there & moving on.

        2. They didn’t force their way in or anything, asked (coercively of course), and it didn’t do any more or less harm than saying no would’ve.

        3. If you just step back and look at that situation from a detached viewpoint, it is absolutely disgusting. What kind of a sick individual wants to rifle through something as personal as the freakin’ trunk of your car?! That is SO mind-bogglingly arrogant, to say nothing of absolutely disrespectful. I would have laughed in their faces. What did they want next? Permission to inspect your journal? Is nothing sacred to them?

        4. Yeah it absolutely is hard to imagine these places exist, and get away with their behavior. At an earlier stage in my career at PCC (by a good 1 – 2 years) I had told a security guard who wanted to see a tape that was sticking out of my tape deck, that I would strongly advise he kept his hands out of & off of my vehicle, and they didn’t follow through with any follow up to that incident.

      1. ” it didn’t do any more or less harm than saying no would’ve.”

        To you, maybe not. But if you’d said “no,” and they forced the issue, maybe it would have hurt them a little.

        In any case, you have amply demonstrated how mentally deficient they are. The uses for fireworks should be completely apparent, and smoking is not one of them (unless, say, you are an old, old cartoon character waiting to get its head blown off!).

        I would think it is necessary to demand of all schools to publish A Student’s Bill of Rights. It should definitely outline student rights and restrictions on the administration that will protect those rights. Not that such a thing would ever happen, of course. It would be an admission that students are adults, have the rights and responsibilities of adults, and prevent the schools from being arbitrary in how they handle issues.

        And schools hate freedom on their campuses. Even state schools are scared to give students too much freedom. But I think such things are right and needed.

    2. I’m sure this was written as a parody but reading it was a flashback to my thought processes about lighters for most of my life. I still don’t know how to use one because I feel guilty at the thought of touching one. Argh!

        1. Mamma? Is this shirt dirty?

          If you have to ask, it is. Go put on a clean one.

          Legendary conversation between Bob Jones Jr. and his mother, Mary Gaston Stollenwerck Jones. Many rules are tacitly founded on this occasion. Somehow, ring around the collar is a metaphor for our sin.

        2. I always hated that thought (“if you have to ask, it is”) because I’m a generally questioning, doubtful sort of person. I wonder about lots of things. If I had to act as if everything I questioned were so just because I questioned it, my life would be a horror.

          (Along those same lines is the expression, “when in doubt, don’t.”)

        3. What you are describing is the “spirit of fear” that we are not given of by God. That is a gift from the MoGs.

          I decided I could no longer afford it. So I ask. I answer. I challenge. Yes, even Him. And I will not be put off as He did to Job, thundering at him and cowering him for his questions. I can understand. I can reason. I am not a slave. I am not expendable. I am not willing to simply have no answer.

        4. The one I always heard was, “If you think something might be wrong, but you do it anyway, you are sinning because of your attitude, even if the action itself was not actually a sin.” Now, this was from people who derided “situational ethics”–the idea that something might be wrong in one context, but not in another. How is this any different?

        5. God has answered nothing in “his word.” All he has done is try to satisfy us with non-answers.

          And that is okay. Because Progress of any sort has been made by humanity by ignoring the limitations and taking knowledge for ourselves.

          In 1918 a doctor looking at the condition of a child suffering from the Spanish Flu could do nothing but say, “She is in God’s hands, now.” When she was buried, the minister said to the parents that it was God’s will, that God had called her home.

          Scientists did not accept such things. They discovered viruses. They learned how to work with them, to make drugs which could fight them and to institute protocols to keep infection from spreading. So today, though people still die, they do not die like they did when the only hope was in God. We fight the sickness — and we often win. We prevented SARS from becoming a pandemic.

          We do it. We step up to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and we eat freely. We learn about our world. It no longer frightens us. We see problems and we can fix them, barring superstition and greed.

          The Answers are not in the Book. It doesn’t even address the Questions appropriately. All it does is what you are doing–admonishing us to not ask, to just submit, to not use our mind or our talents.

          God may have stopped Babel, but we have conquered language. We have built towers. We have gone into the heavens and seen that “Heaven” is not there. We have gone to other planets, and are even leaving our solar system.

          If all you can say is “God will get you for that!”, well, God isn’t. Every time a religionist says that something is God’s realm and we can’t go there, we not only go there, but we see God wasn’t there beforehand. There were no magic strings being pulled.

          It is time for “good Christians” to pull their heads out from where the sun don’t shine and open their eyes to see the world as it is. It isn’t right to want to keep the world “conservative.” It is time to move forward with strong ideas and hearts to make things better for everyone.

          We have Eaten. We are no longer in the garden, as infants. And we are no longer under the Schoolmaster of the Law. It is time to stand as Adults and work righteousness with our own hands.

        6. I love being accused of Blasphemy in the morning. Especially by Someone Else who doesn’t see the imperative to think for himself, being too afraid of God to do so.

          I put my faith and trust in Jesus Christ as my Savior many years ago. That didn’t mean I put my brain on Idle. It doesn’t mean I have to listen to the inanities of those who think they can mangle the Scripture and rip it out of its textual, situational and historical context.

          The Bible is not God. I do not worship the Bible, I worship God. And I expect Him to act like a decent, self-respecting God should act.

          If that is blasphemy, so be it!

        7. Someone Else – I love how your version of God is like the Wizard of Oz. The difference between a lot of us and you is that we have “paid attention to the man behind the curtain”. We do not cower in fear that our words will get us in trouble. But if that makes you feel good about yourself, you keep on keeping on. Maybe this place is a little bit too grown up for you. Back in the sand box.

        8. Every time someone (or Someone Else) levies a charge of blasphemy, it is to try to cow a person back under control–or to contain a situation in which others are feeling encouraged to step out of line.

          The punishment for blasphemy is, of course, death. Stoning, usually. God, after all, can’t defend Himself, or won’t. So His Minions have to do the bloody work for Him. Have to get the crowd involved so they won’t ask any of the wrong questions. Who’s next?

          The charge is always for crowd control and never really addresses the issues raised.

          I have no doubt stoning would be used here in America if pastors thought they could get away with it. After all, such murder is biblical.

        9. RTG, you may well be aware of the existence of theonomists in the far-right fringes of American politics, who wish to bring back the death penalty for all sorts of things, including adultery, being gay, and, of course, blasphemy. Rushdoony advocated the imposition of Old Testament law, including all of those penalties and more. It bothers me that they’re tolerated as much as they are by significant parts of the right wing.

        10. Your observation is one of the reasons I think the right wing is potentially as bloody as right wing Islam. All they need is the chance to change some laws, assert states’ rights or the supremacy of biblical law over national law, and we would soon see religiously motivated deaths.

        11. Josh,

          I have only recently heard of Theonomy and it is a chilling retreat from God’s grace straight back into law. Man doesn’t break God’s law, as much as he is broken against it. In my relatively new knowledge of Theonomy I have to ask, how is it any different from radical Islam?

        12. Aside from the name of God, not much.

          What is quite interesting about the Rushdoony crowd is that several who are pushing for theocracy don’t do so because they are believers. Some of them aren’t. But the think such a radical and controlled society is “good” for people. It provides a huge measure of control, including thought and information control.

        13. Extremist forms of Sharia, as implemented by radical Islamic leaders, are exactly comparable to what theonomic law would be, if radical Christianist leaders had a sufficient majority (or were in another form of political system that gave them unchecked power).

        1. Jeff Fugate retweeted this:
          Justin Cooper @JustinSCooper · Mar 5
          “The scissors of Delilah were far more dangerous than 1,000 Spears of the Philistines”-BRLakin…Better be watching where you lay your head!

          So … Now he’s AGAINST haircuts??

        2. No, that’s his metaphor for the emergent church. It isn’t a church if where you go you have freedom to ask questions. If the leader doesn’t see himself (or, horrors, herself!) as the Man of God and lets you make decisions in spiritual matters for yourself, you are in worse spiritual shape than if you had Sunday School at the gay bar in the seedy part of town.

        3. Isn’t it good to have Sunday School at the gay bar in the seedy part of town?
          You mean I should stop?

        4. “Encouraged/blessed 2 hear DrJorgensen preach on staying on the wall of Fundamentalism & watch nearly 1,000 teens say “amen” & commit 2 do so”

          Wait a minute…
          I used to hear sermons about staying OFF the wall or fence. Choosing a side and not being in the middle. If you sit in the middle of the road, you are bound to get run over after all.

          Speaking of Jorgensen. He has a son who used to be in ministry. It really sucks when convicted sex abusers can later petition to get their criminal records expunged. Thankfully, these victims can pursue justice though a civil lawsuit:

          http://www.chicoer.com/20120310/warrant-issued-for-former-chico-church-staff-member-for-alleged-child-sex-abuse

        5. Just because people stop Talking About Something doesn’t mean it no longer exists.

          It doesn’t matter what you call it, either. The Church as a whole is changing. The way people view The Church is changing. The way people see themselves, others, authority and autonomy is changing. Just as language changes will (have?) eventually force the abandonment of the 1611 KJV by all but a very few, so people will change their views of Church.

        6. A variation of the term, Ecclesia reformata semper reformanda (“the reformed church (is) always to be reformed”).

          But we all with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even by the Spirit of the Lord.

        7. I get the impression that many fundies would ignore what Luther said, especially in Latin
          After all he wasn’t a Baptist. Also, now that we have the Perfect. Church (IFB) and the Perfect Word Of God for All people (KJV) why would we need to reform? Ptah!

      1. There may not be much difference. But I would rather target the real thing and not the parody. If you target the parody, people can rightly point out that you are not actually dealing with what the real person says and does.

        Parodies may be fun and all that. But the parody of an issue is not same as the real issue.

  3. I could have sworn there were Bible verses that say “Don’t shave your facial hair.”
    They must be in that part of Leviticus that doesn’t count because Jesus.

      1. …like the verses about premarital sex and gay sex, but not the verses about period sex and uncleanness after nocturnal emissions.

        1. Oh I’m sorry. So when you made your sarcastic remark to Josh about the NT not being clear, you were talking about period sex. Got it. You are a menstraphobe.

        2. Someone Else: The original comment made mention of Leviticus. I was referencing Hawker Hurricane’s comment, “They must be in that part of Leviticus that doesn’t count because Jesus.” I’m venturing a guess that Leviticus is also what Josh, Doctor of Pulchritudinousness, meant by his response.

          — TIILS

        3. “Certainly not the difference between moral and ceremonial, ”

          JSYK…not in the Bible anywhere, old or new.

          Certainly some things are repeated in the NT, and even some of those are culturally bound, its just not a simple as you seem to think it is. The new covenant is a paradigm shift, not just selective enforcement of the old.

    1. There are actually some Orthodox Jewish barber shops that burn hair rather than cutting it, because one of the Mosaic laws says not to use a blade on your hair or your beard.

    2. Isaiah’s prophesy about the Messiah says that His beard would be yanked out. (50:6)

      So Jesus must have had a beard! But as a punishment for rebellion, God the Father (the Great and Almighty Dean of Men) required it be gotten rid of at all costs.

  4. I always thought it strange that fundy men are so terrified of appearing effeminate yet will not wear facial hair. What’s less female than a beard?

    1. We demand long hair on women and short hair on men. Why? Gender distinction!

      We demand pants on men and no pants on women. Why? Gender distinction.

      We demand men shave their facial hair. Why? . . .

    2. Well, my 2nd IFB pastor wears a beard. I remember when he decided to start it. He tried it a while, shaved it off, then tried it again and kept it.

      There are IFBers who like a well-trimmed beard. Fundyism is fractured on the topic, with the old guys against and the younger guys more tolerant.

      1. Except for the younger “chalkboard washers” who are trying to get the approval of dead guys. Oh, and of geezers who still remember the old glory days of Solomon’s Temple Fundyism.

  5. I wonder if the no facial hair rule isn’t something left over from the ‘hippie culture’? Back in the day it was preached against because of the drug and free love associations so perhaps it was handed down to the point where they have forgotten the original intention. My granddaddy and my daddy preached against it old paths and all that not noticing that society has changed.

    Then again they were always behind the times when it came to trends.

    1. In 10 or 20 years, Dr. Fugate will watch a syndicated rerun of Duck Dynasty, and realize that he has been outflanked on his cultural conservative right.

      And the beard growing shall begin…

    2. Should be on the Fundy flag.
      “Proudly forgetting original intentions since *9/25/1926 and proud of it”.

      *Jack Hyles birthdate, aka, the dawn of time

  6. It’s one of life’s ironies that the appearances of the stereotypical gay man and a fundie preacher are so similar – clean shaven, short hair and well dressed

    1. One significant difference being, of course, that the stereotypical gay man is well acquainted with the gym, and the stereotypical fundie preacher is … not.

        1. Couldn’t be a fundy church. No fundy king would allow a secular organization use his building.

    2. As a stereotypical gay man myself, I can tell you you’re a little behind the times. Beards are back, big time. And I mean real beards made of hair, not female friends. And many of us don’t even shave our chests anymore!

      1. I know bear culture is a big thing in some places, though I don’t see any of it in my rural midwestern area. Anyway, as a rather isolated and non-stereotypical gay man, I appreciate being kept up to date on the goings on out in the wider world. 😮

        1. I’m sure there are (in both senses of the word). I just haven’t seen any in my neck of the woods (not that I’ve been out in any gay bars looking… that’s not really my scene). Ok, that was random. Sorry, I’m tired.

      1. As in “Honorary Doctorate from a fellow MoG”?

        Reverend Larry awards Reverend Moe an Honorary Doctorate.
        Reverend Moe awards Reverend Curly an Honorary Doctorate.
        Reverend Curly awards Reverend Larry an Honorary Doctorate.
        NYUK! NYUK! NYUK!

  7. Honestly, I believe the “strict fundamentalists” are going to be among those who hear “I never knew you”. And it makes me sad, because they (or many of them) believe they are pleasing God and obeying Him. They hold fast to what [they believe] scripture tells them to do, but Jesus said, “The scriptures tell you of me, but you refuse to come to me.”

    I can hear the fundy in front of God now. “But God, I went to church twice on Sunday, and on Wednesday night. I had devotions and prayed every day. I didn’t dress like the world around me. I didn’t drink alcohol, I didn’t smoke. God, I did everything the Bible tells me to do and refrained from everything it tells me not to do.”

    God, with genuine sorrow on his face, “But dear one, oh dear one [perhaps a tear would slide down God’s cheek] you never took the time to get to know me. Now I must turn you away because I don’t know you and I can’t let strangers into my house.”

    1. Matthew 25:

      41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

      1. This was THE most influential passage in helping my husband and I realize that we were not fully obeying God while staying in the IFB status quo.

        1. Unfortunately, many of these IFBers would vehemently disagree with you; they would take it to mean that those on Jesus’ right were the Republicans who campaigned against gay marriage, made FOX News the “#1 news channel in America,” replaced the Constitution with the Bible (King James, preferably), and so on and so forth, while those on His left were the Democrats who ruined America (or let it go to ruin) by not caring one whit about any of those things.

        2. Being somewhat of a theatre type – on the tech side, but still… and yes, I know the stereotype, and it’s mostly true – I think there is a simple resolution to this conundrum:

          It’s quite elementary: someone’s on audience right, and someone’s on stage right. I’ll leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out who is on which side. 😉

    2. I know what you mean, Norm.

      I’m reminded of Rom. 10: 2-3: “They have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge for they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”

    3. re: “… you never took the time to get to know [M]e.”

      Of course, we get to know Him by studying His Word – the revelation of Himself to us.

    4. Dear Norm:

      Followed closely with …

      ‘I thank God that I’m not like other men … I’m biblically separated, drive the church school bus, contribute to missions, shout ‘A-men’ at every service, beat my kids regularly, and am a tyrant toward my wife. I buttonhole everyone I don’t like about going to hell, and call out people with more grace and intellect than myself. I’m certainly not like that that miserable wretch over there who attends the church where they __________________’ [insert liturgical practice of your choice].

      Christian Socialist

      1. Actual convo that took place at my home:

        6 yr. old, reciting: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee, the other a pumpkin…”

        8 yr. old, condescendingly: “No, the one a Pharisee, the other a PELICAN.”

        10 yr. old, settling the debate once and for all (seriously): “No, the one a Pharisee, the other a REPUBLICAN.”

  8. If it was right in the 1950s it is right today. That is all that anyone needs to know about hair. The Olde Paths were forged in the fifties and if you deviate from them you are worldly. Don’t try to confuse these people with facts or things that are actually found in the Bible. They know better.

    1. I got caught in this when I was a teen:

      Me: “Mom, the Psalms talk about dancing. So why is it wrong for us to dance if they did in the Bible?”

      Mom: “Because that was the Old Testament. Things are different now.”

      So it was OK for God’s people to dance once upon a time, but now that Jesus came to set us free, we can no longer dance? Hmmmm.
      Of course, at the time, I didn’t understand about the “holding-to-the-1950s-culture” thing.

        1. Doubling down on bondage? Oh myyy! That’s fifty shades of awkward. 😮

      1. Very good memory Me. Yes, he was the rock star in my fundy circles. Many of the kids around here got funneled up to Gaylord for the continuation of their substandard education.

  9. After many years, a young Jewish Talmud student who had left the old country for America returns to visit the family.
    “But-where is your beard?” asks his mother upon seeing him.
    “Mama,” he replies, “in America, nobody wears a beard.”
    “But at least you keep the Sabbath?”
    “Mama, business is business. In America, everybody works on the Sabbath.”
    “But kosher food you still eat?”
    “Mama, in America, it is very difficult to keep kosher.”
    The old lady ponders this information and then leans over and whispers in his ear, “Isaac tell me you’re still circumcised.”

  10. Spurgeon, the same Baptist preacher whom many like to quote today, actually taught that it was effeminate, unmanly, and ungodly for men to NOT have a beard. He reasoned that only women and children should have soft faces. Since the smooth shaven look was just becoming newly fashionable in his city of London, he preached that a clean cut look was worldly.

    1. SI wonderful how different MoGs can come to vastly different and totally contrary ideas on what constitutes worldliness. Of course, the bases of their measures are purely their own prejudices.

      1. Somewhere I have a pamphlet written by an early Peeb denouncing silver tipped canes carried by men on Sundays and the noise they made. Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose. This was in the 1880s if memory serves.

  11. Here’s a cut and paste of a tweet.

    Pastor Jeff Fugate @drjefffugate · Feb 25

    To say that a CCM song or an Emerging Church book is “not so bad” is like saying a certain beer doesn’t have as much alcohol in it! #poison

    1. Well, after some study and understanding the definitions of the “emergent church,” I would say that I am definitely part of it.

      I question authority. I want the church to be relevant. I mistrust the hierarchies that have so robbed the masses for their own enrichment. I do not believe the Scriptures are inerrant. Nor are they the only authority for truth in the world.

      And I don’t care who knows it.

      1. My understanding is that “emergent church” was a buzzword back in the nineties, and the term is only used now by Fundies who are defensive against it.

        1. Some scholars claim to have identified current religious attitudes and actions that appear to mirror other times when the Church has been on the cusp of significant change.

          As far as the buzz in the 1990s go, I don’t know much. But there are some scholars today who see us in the early stages of significant change.

          Not that everything or everyone will change, of course. But there will be an extended period of time in which a new normal is worked out. It may be only a church reduced in power and influence. We can’t tell. It is in the process of emerging.

          It may all be wishful interpretation, of course. Much of history is just that. But then, maybe something is going on after all. The Emergent Church is simply a recognition that the church is undergoing stresses and influences that will cause change. Eventually.

      2. There are a lot of things in the scriptures I struggle with
        I don’t believe I can edit out the nits I don’t like in order to make it suit me better. Just saying.

        1. I am certainly not rewriting the Bible.

          But the Bible *was* written by men. God only put His finger onto stone tablets. God is often talked about in the Third Person. And even Paul admitted in 1 Corinthians that certain advice he gave was his own opinion.

          Nor does the Scripture view itself as a complete and unified Work. It Never claims for itself that it has all the answers. Jesus contradicted Scripture by claiming the Law was morally defective.

          And Paul in Galatians tells us to grow up, that we aren’t being ruled by the School Master.

          It’s scary to live and take responsibility for yourself when Everyone wants to be Your Authority. Even Jesus rejected that bunk, telling people not to take a subordinate position by calling other people “teacher.”

          I think I have the right of it. At least I’ll be honest.

      3. “Un-insulting to God”? What does that even mean?

        So, do you believe the Scriptures are inerrant? And how do you know which of the very many interpretations is the one God wants?

        Ultimately, you are the final authority, too. The ones claiming any authority are doing a terrible job at it.

        Even Moses had the gumption to rebuke God, and Abraham had the gall to remind God of His Place and duty.

      4. Someone Else, there are many authorities for truth in the world. How about evidence? How about the world itself? It isn’t necessary to accept a 2000 year old document as the final authority say, in science.

      5. Actually of the bits of Scripture I have trouble with – like the examples rtgmath cites – are in the Old Testament (where I suspect many Fundamentalists still want to live.) I was under the impression that at least some of the Rules changed when Jesus died and rose again. Maybe I was wrong about that.

        1. Actually, Jesus made the observation that “the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.” The Rules were broken, sometimes with Complete Justification. Paul noted that the Law was Weak.

          That doesn’t sound like a Divinely Perfect System, does it?

      6. Which interpretation? The fundy one. Or is it a matter of interpretation? The Fundamentalists say it. You should believe it. That definitely settles it.

      7. Yes, God is a Big God. He doesn’t need Fundamentalists – or rtgmath, or anyone – to babysit Him, or wrap him in cotton wool. He can take criticism and stand on His own two feet. I do think He sppreciates us being honest with Him.

      8. (Pats Someone Else on the head. “Good boy!”)

        God may be smarter. But He has never spoken to me or to you. He leaves people in misery, hurts the innocent and allows faith in Him to be perverted so the MoGs can be predators. He leaves billions in blindness they cannot overcome and gives them no help, no hope.

        Is that Smart? To be Able to make things better, but not to do so? God needs to do a better job.

        If God wants to demonstrate His Power and Authority on me by smashing me for my observations, then He will definitely convince me He isn’t Loving or Kind. But He hasn’t done that.

        I have never looked for license to sin. I have looked for ways to remove the shackles so-called “righteousness” uses to enslave people.

      9. Ahhh, the old Fundy “It doesn’t mean what it says” argument, the “you can’t read the Bible literally except where we want you to” meme.

        Of course God changes. Every interaction with mankind is a change. God changed his mind about creating man when He decided to send the Flood. God talked about how he would react to what the people of Israel did in the sending of blessings or curses.

        People read one passage of Scripture, “I change not” and decide that overrides all other evidence. It isn’t warranted.

        Now you may go along with the idea that God being God means never having to be responsible for his actions. That is the old oriental, know-nothing, everyone is a slave and worthless approach. And it is nonsense. It was the organizing principle of an ancient society that no decision of a master could ever be wrong and no question of a slave could ever be right.

        But Abraham didn’t hold to such guff. He talked to the Lord, his friend, and said, “Should not the judge of the whole earth do right?”

        That wasn’t an acknowledgement that every thing God does is right because He is God, but a declaration that there is an external standard by which all, even God Himself, are measured. Moses reminded God that breaking His promises, as God declared He was going to do, would tell the world how weak, inept, and corrupt God was.

        God changed His Mind. It says it in the Scripture. The context supports the interpretation.

        And yes, other passages try to mitigate the damage. God had to remind Himself of how awesome He is.

        The idea that God is always right is ridiculous. Omnipotence does not confer Morality. Might does not make Right. Of course, He gets to write the rules. You think slavery is okay, then?

        The idea that God answers prayer is an admission that God changes. If God answers your prayer, is the new situation “right” while the previous “wrong”? The analysis of prayer and God’s response fractures the idea of an absolute “right v. wrong” duality.

        We can talk about Satan, Angels, demons, and hell some other time.

        But your response does conform to standard, inconsistent fundamentalist hermetics. Those are perhaps the hardest part of fundamentalism to leave, the last chain to be broken.

      10. Someone Else – If you aren’t going to bother to read what anyone writes but you still feel compelled to respond with your nonsense about your god, it’s time for you to shut the hell up. Time for you to go back to the kiddie table of life. Let us adults talk here.

      11. Haven’t read it. No surprise. That is the mark of the unintelligent, you know. Never look at what you are supposed to disagree with, lest you actually learn something. Your handlers would be proud.

        No, the fact is that your God not only isn’t perfect, you know it and are frightened to admit it. You are afraid you have an Old Testament God of Wrath instead of a God of Grace. Fear surrounds you palpably.

        I have had more than my share of people trying to enslave me with “God will punish you for that!” As if God was too small to tolerate my misunderstandings and too irritable to give love and comfort. Isn’t God supposed to be The Adult in the Room? Why should He be as Petty as you believe Him to be?

        You have a lot of growing up to do.

    2. Is that a real comment or a parody one?

      If it’s real, it makes me SO ANGRY!!! They put so much effort into fighting other Christians, into fighting music that speaks not only Scriptural truths but often ACTUAL WORDS OF THE BIBLE! So much rancor and for what? And they call it poison? Seriously?

      Here’s just one example:

      “I was a child of wrath
      An enemy of the King of Peace
      But love was stronger . . .
      I tried resisting grace
      The son of God still took my place
      Cause love was stronger,
      Love was stronger.

      You are stronger than my sins, You carried
      To the cross with resurrecting love

      Love
      Love was stronger
      Love
      Love was stronger

      When You had called me in
      My flesh was weak, my heart was dead
      But love was stronger
      Love was stronger

      I was in a foreign land
      You made me a citizen in You
      Cause love was stronger
      Love was stronger

      I am the one who pierced Your side
      I put every thorn on Your head
      Through the feet and through the hands
      I placed all of my sins
      But love was stronger
      But love was stronger”
      – by Audio Adrenaline

      That song is poison? The poison instead is in the people who rail against those who write, sing, produce, publish, and listen to this.

      1. I didn’t realize how long the comments thread had gotten.

        My comment was in response to this:

        “Pastor Jeff Fugate @drjefffugate · Feb 25

        To say that a CCM song or an Emerging Church book is “not so bad” is like saying a certain beer doesn’t have as much alcohol in it! #poison”

        1. Yeah, poison? By the way, I think he has it backwards, after all what is the point of beer without alcohol?

        2. Preach it, MiriamD and BG!!!

          Of course, I think beer is gross anyway, but if you’re gonna drink it you may as well get some benefit from it.

        3. MiriamD, whether it’s the cheap stuff or the fancy stuff, there’s really nothing that appeals to me in the beer department. I’ve tried to like it because it’s generally cheaper than wine/spirits, but it still doesn’t do a lot for me.

          Give me some Grey Goose and we’ll all be happy.

        4. I’m not sure about beer being an acquired taste. Some people like it right away, and others never do. Then there’s the question, “Why bother to acquire a taste for something you don’t like and can live without?”
          But some people who don’t like beer have only ever tasted cheap, nasty beers like Bud and Coors. I don’t like *those* beers.

        5. I’ve gotten to where I can drink beer, but I still prefer a nice bourbon, cognac, or absinthe. Or a mixed drink, depending on the situation. 😛

        6. I’m not sure if that’s a euphemism, but based on the brand name alone church folks would be having palpitations.

        7. I don’t know what this “Church meeting tea” is, but I could use a Long Island Iced Tea right about now! 😛

  12. I scrolled down through the comments.

    I’m confused.

    What the H-E-doubletoothpicks is everyone talking about? Flippin’ too much bourbon being consumed? Maybe the rum is affecting my mental functions to fully grasp the jargon here tonight.

    Oh my, I fundy-swore.

    I know. I’ll consume an eight ball: A double shot of Nyquil and a melatonin. I’ll wake up in the morning and forget everything.

    ta-ta-for-now!

    B.R.1

  13. Wow, I read his real Twitter feed. Eisegesis abounds! Staying on the wall, like Nehemiah, mog with the trowel and sword, the danger in Delilah’s scissors (so watch where you lay your head).

    Apparently, all descriptive texts in the Bible were really written about us.

    And on that thought, ever notice how they take descriptive texts like (name your hero) as a message from God to them, while often ignoring the prescriptive texts about widows and orphans and helping out your neighbor and stuff?

    1. It’s amazing how they can find obscure meaning in an OT story and use that to put laws on believers today, yet ignore the simplest commands from Jesus: love others, be humble, forgive, give.

      1. Yes. Indeed.

        God may be smarter than I am, but he has some pretty awful representatives.

        So I am not going to affirm that God was smarter than I am when He put into the Law a provision for stoning your own children, or for raping a war captive under the guise of “marriage,” or for ordering genocide.

        Should I? Must I? Really? Is selling your children into slavery, as allowed by the Law really “right?”

        No, I would rather read the Beatitudes, find a way to bless others, to forgive. The laws? The culture? Forget them. Were I a slave I would fight for my freedom. Death would be better than unquestioning obedience. Jesus healed people without charge. He gave grace to sinners. He ate and drank with them.

        I am sick of the hurt and the lies that accompany “faith” so very often. To me, that isn’t trying to be smarter than God. It is trying to be good, to live others as I love myself. To love God with my mind, not just with a lack of intelligence.

        I would have beaten Adam and Eve to the Tree of Knowledge. I would have needed no Tempter. Knowledge is Essential. It is the Power to do Good, to know the difference between Good and Evil. Otherwise you have people who eschew the Tree doing evil while thinking they are doing good because they don’t know better.

        1. RTGmath, As I said before, much of Fundamentalism – the kind that you wew immersed in – is actually in the Old Testament. You are doing something that may be anathema to a true fundy – you are toying with the idea that something really did change when Jesus died and rose again.

        2. Thanh you, Paul.

          Is it wrong of me to assume the apostles and writers of Scripture didn’t completely “get it,” either? Paul had to rebuke Peter, after all.

          Change takes time. That doesn’t mean we should be willing for it to do so.

        3. If you read the Gospels, much of them consists of times Jesus rebuked people for completely missing the point.
          So maybe nobody *fully* gets it.

        4. The people whom Jesus rebuked the most, were the religious leaders and the pharisees, the guys with heads full of religious knowledge and hearts full of hardness. Has anything changed in 2000 years?

      2. They take the Word of God literally–word for word–except when it comes to the words spoken by the actual Word…then they can justify their violence and their judgmental attitudes and their casting the first stones….

    1. “Somebody’s trying to say I’m a racist, but that’s the last thing I am.”

      Ever notice that whenever someone says, “I’m not racist,” the next thing to come out of his or her mouth is always something racist?

        1. Its amazing how fundamentalism teaches you to apologize in a way that is not really an apology–but instead deflects the guilt from self onto someone else or somehow makes yourself look like the victim. I am learning how to apologize since I have left the brand of fundamentalism I was in….

        2. Leanne, you are right, when I was in fundamentalism I was taught that if someone comes to me because I somehow offended them, but I really don’t think I’m guilty, I should say, “I am sorry you took it that way.”

          I used to love that. Never an admission of guilt or wrong and I thought I was tricking them into forgiving me without repentance.

        3. Eric, so typical! The form but not the substance of forgiveness! What is the value of forgiveness without repentance? It is totally without value to both parties. Sadly not only is it without value, it is also harmful. All I ever got from the fundies was stones for bread.

        4. Don’t ya love how because they say the magic words — most likely without any sorrow behind it all — they hold it over you if you don’t automatically and completely “forgive” them?

          It’s not that simple, folks. Magic words are only in fairy tales.

  14. A long string of foul language crossed my mind upon seeing this…

    This was one of the things that started my departure from fundamentalism…

    I have a goatee that reaches my collar bone and my hair is usually pretty shaggy(touching my ears and everything). I’d bet that I’m a reprobate sinner that’s gonna bust Hell wide open according to this guy…

  15. I grew up in and IFB church and currently attend one. However I’m apart of the Fundy shift towards the independent biblical bsptist wsy of thinking. Unfortunately many fundies have become stuck in old traditions afraid if the tech revolution and new songs. Have to go say, Bro Fugate should not think facial hair is bad. #notintheBible

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