140 thoughts on “Judge Judy vs. Christian School”

        1. Well, as Dr. Fundystan informed me, he is not really a proctologist. I was just celebrating his getting First with one of my favorite songs!

          Of course, a colorectal surgeon IS a proctologist. And that is the end of the explanation.

      1. I rather wish she had reamed him a new one. It would have done him a world of good–at minimum, she would have released his head from his nether regions.

        1. Good theory, but it doesn’t work that way. It happens only when the person involved wants his head pulled out of his rectum.

    1. I think that’s what they said, in the course of explaining that they needed no credentials or training to teach, because their curriculum was so spiffy.

      1. I want to know if he’d take a surgeon with no credentials just because the instruments were excellent and even robotic.

    2. Nothing quite a useful as binoculars in the hand of a blind man. “No disrespect to blind men btw”

      1. How about “as useful as a toothless comb in the hands of a bald man”? (no disrespect to bald men) Heard that once somewhere. :grin:

        1. That’s a poor analogy, because a toothless comb would work just as well as a toothed one for a totally bald person.

    3. I caught that little tid bit. I was about to fall out laughing when he said “You haven’t even asked me about the curriculum.” And worse when he said “Oh yes, I have tested him using the curriculum.” That is laughable to say the least. My when oldest was five, I used the ACE site to test her, not because I was going to use it…(I knew it was bad even back then). I tested her and she was on a FIFTH GRADE level. Now I would have been able to put her in “fifth grade” at the age of five. While she is one smart cookie, that is NOT a wise move. I had friends using it. The 7th grader had a spelling test. Two of his words were what and watt. YIKES! Eight years later, those said people HIGHLY regret using that curriculum.

      1. Those “grade-equivalent” scores are deceptive. And they do not really mean “grade-equivalent.”

        It turns out that such “status scores” mean next to nothing. Here is a short article you can look at. http://web.cortland.edu/andersmd/STATS/gradequ.html

        Frankly, the score of the student with the mean and standard deviation would be better. Or give the child a percentile ranking within his or her grade. But don’t pretend the child belong in the 9th grade if they are in the 6th grade!

        The world of standardized tests is also full of shady paper-pushers!

  1. I loved to see them squirm. They absolutely deserved it.

    “Christian” schools usually aren’t. Not really. They are cultural war fox holes that parents put their children in to escape reality. The people who “run” them usually are inexperienced and don’t know what they think they do.

    I almost got sucked into working at a “Christian” school. Maybe I should write that “Christian School”! But the pay was too low for me to live on, and they demanded that my wife would “contribute” 20 hours of unpaid work per week as well. In addition to attending all regular and special church meetings, not having a life, etc.

    The time I spent in furthering my education in mathematics after that was well spent.

    1. I wouldn’t rush to put all Christian Schools in one basket, rt. There are some bad ones out there, but there are just as many who hold their staff/faculty to the same or higher standards as the public sector, with individuals who pour their lives into their students.

      With any school – be involved and know what you’re getting with your child’s education.

      1. Well, I would need to be convinced. Most of the ones I have had any knowledge of are poorly equipped, use canned curriculum, demean science, and cannot provide for special needs.

        I will admit that some Christian schools do well, but most of those that actually do a good job are not so much “Christian” as they are private and high end. Those I acknowledge do good work. My wife is from one of those. But at this school, she was even taught the theory of evolution!

        Or perhaps the difference is that most of my irritation is with “fundy” Christian schools? Could there really be “fundy” Christian schools that really do perform in academics and can deal with special needs without scorn and bad attitudes toward the children?

        Maybe BJ Academy. Maybe. Maybe a very few others.

        I am sorry to be so pessimistic, but fundamentalism puts out too much second-or-third rate quality stuff they parade as the best. It just isn’t so.

        I will freely acknowledge that public education has a lot of problems, many of which have been caused by fundamentalist infiltration in the system intent on destroying it.

        1. “I will admit that some Christian schools do well, but most of those that actually do a good job are not so much ‘Christian’ as they are private and high end.”

          Boom. There it is.

        2. This is our kids last year at a certain christian school. We just “got out” of the church and didn’t yank the kids mid-year. This is the world and friends they have known their whole lives and we are so sad that this is going to be harder on them than it needs to be. The academics are solid and the administration runs well largely do to the fact that the pastor/principal got his bachelor’s and masters at a state university. (Don’t worry–they still funnel as many kids as possible to a certain university). They gave up spankingin school years ago. They actually are neck in neck (based on their tiny sample size) in top scores for college bound with a one of the nearby high-scoring public schools. BUT the teachers are paid horribly, students are taught to be paranoid/isolationist (not that they all go for it), the legalism is crushing (very visible in the high school), anyone who doesn’t believe 6-day literal creationism is decieved/not really saved/ has never opened a bible, special education is dismal (though they parrot that it’s great, the poor teachers bear the brunt). And they DO NOT REPORT CHILD ABUSE AND NEGLECT. They still teach “spanking is the only way.” They did recently demote a man from being a deacon after church members made a lot of noise over a situation. This will not undo the permanent medical disability brought on by lack of care in this instance. Disgusted….getting away…sad.

        3. The first fundy school I attended was pretty iffy academically. The one I graduated from was much bigger and had better, if limited, academics. My first teaching job was in a non-denominational Christian school run by a parent board. I enjoyed it, but the pay was horrible. They were basically a prep school with high academic standards (and high tuition). The lowest salary I was ever offered for teaching in a fundy school was around $8,000 in the mid-90’s. I was told I could live with a church family to save on expenses. I turned it down! The rest of my career has been spent in public schools where I am quite happy.

        4. I’m not sure I’d be able to convince you in this forum, but as a teacher in a Christian school, I’d like to assure you that they’re not all bad. I teach in a Canadian school with about 190 students from Kindergarten to Grade 12.

          The school in which I work is excellent in respect to student welfare, special needs support, and academic performance (within the top ten percent of schools graded by a provincial test of fundamental skills).

          It’s true that it is a private school, and parents pay about $500 per month in tuition fees, regardless of the number of children who attend. About two-thirds of our funding comes from the provincial government. All full-time teachers have a bachelors degree in education, and several teachers have a masters degree. We are subjected to regular mandated government auditing visits and are required by law to teach the government accredited curriculum. We are permitted to design our own curriculum in regard to religious studies.

          I work with an excellent staff, and a principal of exceptional integrity, attitude of service, and humility. The special needs department is recognised for its quality across the province, and works closely with local child development workers and the district. The board and society is cohesive and cooperative, and the parents who send their children to the school are generally supportive of what we do.

          I think the defining factor of our school’s success is that all the staff genuinely love and care about the students, and that this love is motivated by a desire to serve God by doing the very best for these children.

          I’ll grant that in my opinion some staff have less respect for free thought, rationalism, and scientific fact than I’d like. Occasionally various members of the school community view their faith as an end rather than as a means. I’ve come across some odd views and opinions, but broadly speaking I think we’re doing OK. I don’t necessarily think that the school’s good because it’s “Christian,” but because the people who make it work are right with God, and show this by how they treat their neighbour.

          I think that any school in which love and concern for the student is paramount will be a good school. Doing things properly is part of that.

        5. Thank you for your description of your work environment. Please be assured that it is far and above the typical religious school here in the United States. From your description, it must not be run by an avid fundamentalist, but one who respects rules and requirements by the state as it seeks the welfare of the children.

          Here in the US, the typical attitude in fundamentalism regarding “Christian education” is to defy any oversight or government requirements, “just because.” There does not have to be a good reason. Those involved in this sort of thing are looking for a way to escape from “The World” (sound effects: echoes, tremors, thunder. visual effects: darkness, gloom, lightning, gravestones).

          Your attitude seems reasonable and rational, though I admit that the disregard some of your colleagues have for science and rational thought is worrisome.

        6. I live in Australia, where there aren’t so many religious fundies. Most private schools are good, religious or not. It’s the small schools run by one church that tend to hide their issues and use nonsense curriculum like ACE.

          I think religious extremism – regardless of the religion – is always going to have poor results, whatever endeavor it tries its hand at. Except maybe running cults. They’re good at that.

        7. The school that stickmanonamous describes is a whole different species from the unregulated, unqualified “Christian schools” of the USA. But then, Canada is another country.

          There are fine private religious-affiliated schools in the USA. But they are regionally acredited and have highly qualified faculty and staff.

    2. I worked at two places labeled Christian (one was a school). Never again. Being guilted into accepting a terrible wage because “this is a ministry” and then given the same spiel when asking for a raise at BOTH places sucked. I’m sure there are some good places out there to work for, and that’s what I thought when I moved from one to the other, only to find that is was the same crap.

      1. Yeah, I know what you mean. My mom is a teacher at a Fundy high school. In terms of academics it was pretty good (I graduated from there), but the kids were treated pretty bad in the upper grades if they were rebellious–aka practicing witchcraft.

        But back to my mother and the other teachers. Their pay is pretty low to begin with, but this past year they told them if they don’t have enough students that they would have to have pay cuts. Even after her “service” for almost ten years now. The kicker, however, is that they purchased a pretty nice bus for the school literally a week before the pay cut memo came out.

        Ugh. Thankfully(?) enough students signed up for the year so my mom got full(?) pay.

    3. Very few private schools, whether Christian, Catholic, Lutheran, secular, or whatever, have the funding and training to handle a child with special needs. Maybe a child with mild ADHD, but that’s it.

    4. The worst mistake I have made in my life was putting my children in a IFB Christian school for two years!! I try really hard not to “regret” things in my life. I try to learn from mistakes and do better. However, I can’t get over the regret I have. This one is a small one. (20-25 kids) I learned adult bullying has NOTHING on kid bullying. And there was plenty of that too. I have surmised that IFB schools are the highest form of control a church can have on children. They make the God awful rules, and by golly you better follow them. Mandatory candy selling. Lord help me if I had to see another one of those NASTY things I might go postal. I didn’t sell the crap. I bought one box per child and called it done. I was not well liked that is for sure.
      I volunteered the first year. I didn’t step foot in there the second year. The pay for the two teachers is pennies at best. The lack of recourse one has when the teachers are the bad guys. They do no wrong and you have to listen to why your child is the bad one. OH ME OH MY!!
      Torture school is more like it.

  2. I had a really really really hard time watching that. I had to stop it several times and walk away.

    That man’s disrespect for someone with an education was appalling. His disregard for women and children were even more breathtaking. The arrogance he displayed… I have no words.

    Judge Judy’s outrage was at the same time comforting and terrifying. Comforting that someone with training in recognizing and dealing with special needs would stand up to such bullies like that. Terrifying that the bullies would see her stance as “librul nonsense” and dig their heels in even further to continue to perpetuate abuses of the vulnerable.

    God have mercy.

    1. It’s pretty astounding to see a guy who says his educational qualification is “a high school diploma” try to school a judge on what a child’s educational needs are when the judge has bachelor’s and law degrees from prestigious universities as well as many years of family law experience.

      1. I cannot hold off commenting any longer. I am an 82 year old retired man. I watch Judge Judy most every day. I just must say this could’t have happened to a more deserving person!!! She is the best when it comes to dishing it out. Go Judge Judy !!!

    1. I think they mentioned California.

      It wasn’t until I replayed part of the clip that I realized the woman with the Associate’s Degree is the school principal, and the man who barely graduated high school is the school superintendent.
      Have the mere teachers even been to first grade?

      1. “Have the mere teachers even been to first grade?”

        Yes. When they report to work in the morning.

  3. I love the comment she made that it took her 22 or so years to get her associates, and it was probably at some hole in the ground fundy college (assumption considering it was ACE). And also that the dude who’s running it only has a hs diploma. No MBA, M.Ed., or even a D.Min. Normally I don’t care for televised court like that (too overly dramatic), but this was pretty good watching.

    1. Of course, the implicit (and unanswered) question is what the hell is wrong with the parents who would put their children in such a lame imitation of a school.

  4. Oh Wow – go Judge Judy! Of course those two walked out of the courtroom thinking that she’s just an uppity heathen who has no ability to understand the good they are doing through their curriculum and their storage closet, because she doesn’t have the Holy Spirit. Fundies have contempt for degrees in Education and for any so-called mental health issues. All mental health problems are really spiritual problems – the person either does not attend a fundy church or if they do, they aren’t doing enough for it (“for the Lord”).

    1. And I’m sure they will just chalk this case up to unjust persecution from the government or satin trying to destroy gid’s work. Surely a sign that they truly are doing what gid wants.

    2. And on mental illness — I always find it fascinating that people recognize cancer, MS, and other maladies but as soon as it is something wrong with the ol’ neurotransmitters, they jump to the conclusion that it’s caused by something “spiritual”.

      The reduced serotonin levels that cause depression were scientifically linked to changes or problems with digestion because serotonin and other neurotransmitters work in the digestive system too. http://www.healthline.com/health/irritable-bowel-syndrome/serotonin-effects

      So according to fundy logic, the digestive symptoms caused by the depression are a medical issue, but the emotional and energy level symptoms caused by the same exact disease in the same exact person would be a spiritual problem caused by the person’s sin or lack of relationship with God.

      1. Great link – thanks! Yes they have no problem with say heart medication, but medicating mental illness is of the devil

  5. Limited information here, for sure.

    I attended a PACE Christian school my first semester in the 7th grade. That was it for me. That was a joke which took three semesters for me to recover from in my public Junior High School.

    That school has long ago disolved in a tragic fashion after a stalker killed one of the girls (a cheerleader) in a typical freakish-stalker type manner.

    Anyway, what is called “Christian” may not necessarily be “Christian.”

    B.R.O.

    P.S. Someone tell me what I just said.

  6. Haha, Judge Judy used ironic air quotes for “school” like I do for my unaccredited Bible “college”!

  7. I was CS admin for a few years at a reasonably well established Christian School. The teachers pay was atrocious. Some made 20k a year, and heaven forbid you were a woman aka “non bread winner” for the home. It automatically equaled a pay cut for you.

    Here is one major difference i’ve noticed with “Christian”schools, those run through a “local”church have very little chance of survival and quality. Schools that run independent of any one church and are run by a board have a much greater chance of high quality and survival.

    1. I agree. I grew up in a Christian school that was founded and run independently of any one church, and it was great. I’m sure there were politics behind the scenes, as in any school, but we had teachers and kids from every conceivable denomination, which fostered respect for much wider viewpoints, and the academics were good.
      Then I taught at a Christian school that was connected to one church—huge mistake! The politics, infighting, and just general mind-numbing stupidity wer too much. There were deacon’s kids who couldn’t be punished, turf fights between the church and the school using the same facilities, the pastor who couldn’t decide if he was actually the principal or not—I could go on and on. Never again.

  8. I “graduated” from an ACE school. (Needed a GED to get accepted into college.) The “testing” he is talking about in the video would have been to determine what level PACEs to start the boy in. Not anything like the special needs testing Judy was getting at.

  9. I have been a teacher in a government school system for almost 40 years (not in the USA). I am amazed at the number of people who think that teaching is just a matter of parroting pages in a text. Would they accept a lawyer or a doctor who said “Well, I finished high school and I can follow this list of steps”? These sad people will accept a poor excuse of an education for their children as long as it confirms their distorted view of the world.

    1. Actually, there is some fear in the legal profession that this is exactly where we are headed. Too many people using the fabulous, free law firm of Google, Yahoo, and Bing to answer every legal question.

      1. Just as bad for us historians. I don’t know how many times I’ve had a student argue with me, based on something they saw on the internet. And of course we all know that everything we read on the internet is true…

        1. What is worse is that fundamentalists are deliberately rewriting history to try to change it. They wish to validate their own viewpoints, so the facts that get in the way are simply deleted, ignored, or replaced with “factoids” or top-of-the-head assertions.

          David Barton is infamous among historians for his fake quotes of the Founding Fathers. Bob Jones University is an active partner in this rewriting campaign. I hate to say it, but history out of BJU Press should be automatically suspect.

          They put out a book many years back to try to reconcile the American Revolution with Romans 13. After all, the Americans really didn’t revolt. King George just abrogated the “contract.” Etc. ad nauseum. And yes, I bought into it when I read it. But BJU evidently thought they *had* to make the founding fathers look like saints. They try to make deists look like fine Christians, the Constitution look like a piece of divinely-inspired agreement (instead of the hash of compromises it really was!), and the diverse American settlement look like God’s harmonious lighted city on a hill.

          The “history” taught in the Christian schools has been sanitized and white-washed. Even where there is an acknowledgement of the contributions of other cultures, the effect is downplayed and somehow WASP culture still manages to rule, especially fundyism.

          Real history is so much more complex and nuanced. Funny enough, you can’t see quite so many miracles there as the fundamentalists want you to.

        2. History is messy and controversial. Most historical events, and almost all historical actors, are morally ambiguous– a mixture of good and bad. The causes and motivations of historical events, as well as their outcomes, are muddy.
          All historical “facts” are contingent on further research (new or rediscovered evidence) and analysis.

          All of these are characteristics that Fundamentalists abhor and fear in anyone or anything, so it’s no coincidence that there are few or no important historians who are Fundamentalists.

        3. It’s not just messy, but understanding the subject takes a degree of critical thought that you don’t often see in fundies. Just explaining things like the interlaced issues behind the Crusades, or the Investiture Controversy (I’m a medievalist) is a little too much for them. And God help them if I get into Peter Abelard and his arguments with Bernard of Clairvaux. They can’t cope at all.

  10. Whew…this takes me back to my school days in a place exactly like that. ACE system, “supervisors” with no qualifications, and the pastor (a HAC grad) that ran the place where his word was law and anyone outside of it got whatever he deemed fit, regardless of what the bs handbook said.

    Most of the faculty there were student’s mothers that had no qualifications other than free time and traded that for free tuition or a discount for their kids.

    Some of the punishments were pretty creative. Being given a 2 inch razor scraper and put to work on hands and knees scraping old wax off the floors for hours a day after class and if enough progress wasn’t made, you just earned more time to your sentence.

    One of those awesome supervisors also introduced me to drugs. I think I was 12-13 at the time. Horrible place.

    On the bright side, I narrowly missed going to HAC. Although I was publicly dressed down by a bus captain in the middle of the street for “turning my back on God”, I went to a regular college and graduated Summa Cum Laude and don’t regret finally saying NO.

  11. Regular viewer of Judge Judy and I don’t remember that particular show. Scary what some would do in the name of Christ.

  12. What baffles me is the fact that both parties agree to participate in the televised trial.

    What could the school have thought to accept the invitation?

    Oh that’s right if it took 22 years to get an Associate Degree, probably no time at all to think through getting into national television.

    1. I can’t fathom the arrogance it took for the leaders of the “Christian” school to think they would come out ahead in the case that brought them before Judge Judy. I’m delighted that they got their behinds handed to them on national TV. They more than had it coming.

    1. Hey, don’t insult the slug! I’m sure slugs have some kind of value, if only to be food for another animal.

        1. See, that’s why I love this site. So educational and everyone’s ready to help. ::full body shiver::

        2. Ok, I can’t let this pass. Because I am a SLUG Queen. Queen Carmen Slugana, 1999, to be exact.

          Well, I spent several years living in Eugene, Oregon, which has the highest number of VW buses on the road of anywhere outside of the San Francisco Bay area. Lots of tie-dye, too. And unrepentant hippies.

          Sometime in the late 70’s a local festival began, under several different names. At one point it was the Slug Fest, but the business community finally had their way and named it the Eugene Celebration (they’re sooo creative!). Around 1982 (we aren’t sure exactly- the witnesses have been silenced) a bunch of guerilla comics decided that the festival needed a reigning monarch, like the Rose Festival has the Rose Queen. But this was not a beauty pageant for the local high school girls- it was much more than that. It was for the right to reign over Eugene and it’s lovely slugs- a Slug Queen! To this end, the Society for the Legitimization of the Ubiquitous Gastropod (or SLUG) was born. Every August, they hold a pageant to select the most worthy Eugenean to rule over the festival and over the city for the next year. Anyone over 21 may enter. They must show up in a costume, with a talent act, and be prepared to do their thing *and* answer the Dread Question out of the Dread Question Coffee Can in front of the cameras and the whole city (pop. about 130,000- good size).

          I did it. Twice. I took runner-up the first time, and won the second time. I reigned over the festival (got to ride in the convertible in the parade!) and spent the as sort of a good-will ambassador, going to nursery schools and nursing homes, opening day ceremonies of all sorts, fund-raisers, charity functions, etc. I helped raise money for the new city library- and now the ground-floor handicapped-access (one of the SLUG Queens is in a wheelchair) bathroom is named the SLUG Queens’ Throne Room. I made quite a few TV and radio appearances, and I even got to ride a six-way bicycle! (Though I suppose it was really a hexa-cycle, but still…) And the best part is, when you step down, you’re still a Queen! You just become an Old Queen. And I am an Old Queen. I get to sit on the dais and make snarky remarks during the pageant. :-D

          So don’t diss Slugs! Their Queen is among you, and she is cranky!

        3. One of my buddies was the official veterinarian for a banana slug rodeo held in the Santa Cruz, California area (apparently there was a state law saying an animal doctor had to be there to make sure no one was cruel to the slugs). Last I heard, the slugfest had been discontinued because the park rangers got tired of it.

        1. I know someone who was very surprised at the taste of a slug. Mainly because the person was not expecting it to really be a slug.

          If I want protein, I’ll go for bacon. Yeah, bacon. I just had a BLT/ss sandwich (SS = sans slug).

        2. Slugs, when properly prepared, are said to taste a lot like other gastropods, such as escargot, conchs, or periwinkles– all of which taste good to me.

  13. Pity the family who takes their child out of the substandard local school system to put them in a place like Cornerstone, thinking it is a better option. Sad…parents need to do their homework on any school in which they place their child.

    I am a credentialed teacher with 30+ years experience. I am finishing up the last few years before retirement in a high end private, non-Christian school, but I have worked the spectrum from charter to low-performing public to my current place. I am angered when low quality Christian schools recruit from vulnerable parents who want the “best” for their children. They bring great discredit to the excellent Christian schools in my area. It is important to know the curriculum (I abhor PACE), the discipline system and what actual credentials the teachers have. A little Yelp! and internet searches can usually bring some good answers. Are the class sizes small for quality control, or because people refuse to enroll their kids based on the school’s poor reputation? If the facility is really substandard (no real student desks, playground, technology), and the teachers are appointed from within the congregation based upon their Sunday School teaching experience-run!

    1. So this storage closet must be a thing. I’ve been put in one also. They’d leave us in there until the principal or male teacher decided to try our case , then we got spanked or set free or made to remain there the rest of the day. No recess.

      I haven’t thought about it in 30 years really.

  14. Romans 13 must be missing from the school admins’ Bibles.

    “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. “

    1. I’m not seeing the relevance of Romans 13, here. I agree with rtg that it doesn’t fit the fundy mindset very well, but I’m just not getting it. Maybe I’m just slow today.

      1. I think it has something to do with the attitude of the school’s administration towards Judge Judy and what she had to say.

        I would have loved to see the usual ‘chat with the reporter in the hallway’ on the way out. it would have been worth a second bag of popcorn, I’d bet!

  15. Accreditation? Teaching credentials?
    We don’t need no credentials. I don’t have to show you any stinking credentials!

  16. I finished high school in a Christian school that used the ACE curriculum. It was small and they cut corners with the program. Most of my fellow students were behind and never graduated. I found that it was a good system but the chance for abusing it was great. I thought that the curriculum taught things thoroughly. I admit that I had a quality education from a public school until my second year of high school.

  17. I’m a little confused about the startup date since the Judge Judy appearance looks like it occurred in 2006. The listing notes “2 employees.” That must be England and Myers. Anyway, more useless information here and probably outside the scope of the broader discussion:

    Tri Faith Chapel, Inc

    Cornerstone School
    2915 Myrtle Lane
    Clearlake, CA 95422 – View Map

    Phone: (707) 995-0220

    Own This Business?

    Tri Faith Chapel, Inc

    A privately held company in Clearlake, CA. Is this your business? Claim This Profile
    More Details for Tri Faith Chapel, Inc
    Categorized under Private Elementary and Secondary Schools. Our records show it was established in 2008 and incorporated in California. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 92000 and employs a staff of approximately 2.

    Company Contacts

    Is this your business? Claim This Profile

    Jeff England
    Principal
    http://www.manta.com/c/mrsghvg/tri-faith-chapel-inc

      1. Oops. This report says 2012. Something else I looked up said 2011. How did it last so long after Judge Judy’s epic takedown? Oh, I forgot–real fundies don’t watch TV.

  18. Whoo – the storage closet. Yes, I’ve been there for not finishing paces on time. Not locked in, but shut off from everyone.

    I readily admit that I had a problem with self motivation back in high school. So, when we’re given paces that are supposed to be checked up on every day, but they’re not – what’s a lazy student to do?

    I think our supervisor checked our paces maybe 4 times a year. There were very few people who kept up with their work, because there was absolutely no accountability. There was always a frantic rush at the end of the year to catch up on at least half of your yearly work – which is how I ended up in the storage room.

    I hated paces whilst in school, but was told it’s just because I was a rebellious teenager.

    Forgive my rambling, because I’m tired.

  19. Hey, you know that one place that sells khaki culottes as long as board shorts and all the way down to preschool sizes? (At least I hope it’s just one company!) Today I actually saw a tot with wispy baby curls running around on the lawn of a church wearing those awful things. They’re just as ugly in motion as they are in the photos. She looked like she was dressed in a paper bag, which I guess is the point. The day-glo pink T-shirt she also had on kind of detracted from the image, however. But–who in their right minds thinks of preaching sexual modesty to a kid that tiny?!

    This church, BTW, is the one that printed a tract that addresses me as “Friend” and immediately tells me that unless I join their church I am going to writhe in torment forever, because God hates me unless I submit to His righteousness as portrayed, naturally, by the leadership of this church. OTOH there was a woman in a tank top hanging out on that same lawn who did not appear to be being shunned.

    Also BTW, all of the women were wearing long straight skirts that cruelly outlined every socially unacceptable bulge. Former fundies, do you know: Are graceful circle skirts immoral?

    1. I’m pretty sure that one organization I was in would have condemned long straight skirts because they would be too revealing. To this day I don’t generally wear straight skirts but it’s not because of Fundystan. My skirts are a LOT shorter now and sometimes not as full but not those mermaid getups.

  20. >>“Christian” schools usually aren’t. Not really. They are cultural war fox holes that parents put their children in to escape reality.<<

    A deep bow and a doffing of my hat to rtgmath for one of the best lines I have ever read in SFL. Kudos and thanks.

  21. So, off topic, but I’m having a problem setting up a profile on the forum – – and I can’t message anyone over there for help because my account hasn’t been activated. Help!

  22. I feel a bit counter-culture today.

    I have more than a passing acquaintance with IFB grade schools, although I’ve never heard them claim that they handle special needs children. Yes, the teachers are paid terribly. I don’t believe that science is disrespected; evolution is mocked, but they believe in creation, so that isn’t surprising. Yes, they tend to be pretty strict.

    However, the proof is in the results; and this seems to be totally ignored: Are they turning out graduates who can function in society? Can they get a job and succeed at it?

    I know of three graduates from a Hyles-type church’s academy; all of them spent went all they way through the church’s academy and high school. One scored one of the highest scores when he entered the Army and took their aptitude test. Another lady got a job at a local bank; he was rapidly promoted because of her skills. I think she was 20-something when she was some kind of assistant loan manager (the last I knew). Another lady married after completing her “worthless” degree, but is an excellent writer.

    So, despite all the setbacks and bad things that can be found, they school seems to be capable of turning out functional adults.

    Some other random thoughts:
    – I haven’t watched Judge Judy; I thought her “I’m a smarter/better person than you because I have a degree” to be very arrogant.

    – The closet looked from the picture to more of a kitchenette than a closet.

    – It wasn’t clear if the boy was really “special needs” or not. I know that there are children with special needs… all I’m saying is that sometimes the problem is not ADD, but merely discipline. (I know that “a spanking” is not the solution to every problem)

    I’m not defending the school; I don’t think many small, private schools are capable of handling special needs students… and the IFB schools I’ve known do not punish children by locking them in rooms. Based on the clip, these people don’t seem qualified to be teaching in school.

    1. Look at the results. Yes, we need to do that.

      Now yes, some people do well. You hear about them. Others do horribly. Those people fall under the radar. Schools never advertise their failures, do they?

      I deal with the results of “Christian Education” on a daily basis in my classrooms. Yes, some are good. Most aren’t. By and large the public school students are better prepared.

      You may not believe that science is mocked. If you were a scientist, you would have a very different perspective, I assure you.

      Yes, the students get jobs, usually ones where their deficiencies are not too glaring. But in the realm of public policy, their votes, their choices for candidates, their support of particular policy positions have put the United States in an unenviable position. No longer is our middle class the wealthiest in the world, nor the best educated. We lag behind in science, medicine, and other areas because we refuse to spend the dollars to research it. We teach our children to be ignorant of the world and to despise those who study it.

      Why, we even have those who refuse to be immunized because they believe unfounded and disproven urban legends. Their decisions prevent the eradication of diseases, and pastors get to preach that such diseases are God’s Judgment.

      When you substitute religious dogma for real-world knowledge, you wind up posing a threat to the health and well-being of those around you. You pose a danger to guaranteed liberties by encouraging discrimination and prejudice. And you are more willing to give up your own liberties because you have long ago given up the ability to think for yourself, willing to follow the MOG and accept his dictates.

      We have politicians and pastors who would turn us into a nation like Saudi Arabia if they could, where “God’s Law” would overrule any other laws and persecution would reign. And lest you think that impossible, remember that the scum rises to the top, as IFB pastors and kooky politicians demonstrate. It is the minority fringe that has turned the course of nations to the worse over the years, and we are seeing that today.

      An uneducated populace, believing things to be true that are not, cannot make consistently good decisions. Their bad choices will be felt.

      1. ^ Here! Here! ^

        I was a Christian school student grades 1 through 12 (Abeka and ACE), and I was woefully unprepared for when I finally began my university career at the age of 25. About the only thing that my high school education gave me an advantage in was my knowledge of grammar and parts of speech when I took classical Greek and Latin. My critical thinking skills were much to be desired (difficult for a philosophy major!), my math was less than adequate, and I discovered to my chagrin that the “theory of evolution” that I had been so vociferously warned of in high school was a crude caricature of the actual scientific theory.

        To the best of my knowledge, my sister and I are the only two students to have graduated from this moderately-sized christian school to have ever received a four-year degree from an accredited institution, and I am the only student to pursue graduate studies. This is anecdotal evidence, of course, but I feel that my former high school is a fairly approximate representation of your standard fundy church school.

        1. Your story sounds a lot like mine. I started in ACE school through the 4th grade, well at least the equivalent, since grades kind of don’t exist in the traditional sense with ACE. I did horribly there. I was not a motivated kid. My sister was, she excelled. But me, I was too creatively stifled and sat bored to tears. The isolation made me miserable. My particular school followed all the rules, and had us sit in cubicles with dividers and little “flags” to ask for help. So there was absolutely no collaboration or interaction, except on the playground. Math was the worst for me. My mother often remembers the torture that was trying to get me to finish my math homework. I used to hide PACEs under my bed, thinking that if they disappeared, I wouldn’t have to do them.

          Well, my parents decided that both the church and school were not a good fit, so we moved to a new one, and the school was using ABEKA instead. I did so much better there. But…there were issues. I started asking lots of questions that they couldn’t answer, or made them uncomfortable. That didn’t satisfy my curiosity, so I just did what I had to do to get decent grades and counted down until I got to graduate.

          My sister did well here too, and she went off to HAC and wound up with her “Mrs.” degree that she had so hoped for. I luckily avoided that, as my parents ran out of money for me to go anywhere. So I enrolled in a local community college. Holy crap what an eye opener! So many things we were told were just so not true. I relished what I was learning, but I couldn’t continue because life got in the way.

          Years later, I wanted to finish my degree so enrolled again, and did very well. I guess it takes maturity to shake off the lack of motivation I had when I was little. Now, I’m back full-time and even got into Columbia University where I’m studying now. So…going from an extremely “fundy” ACE school to Columbia is pretty amazing when I think about it. But yes, I think there are quite a lot of people who are products of those schools who just cannot compete with the rest of the American population when it comes to educational skills. Personally, I think any success they find is due to their own natural abilities in spite of their education. I know that’s the case for me.

    2. A few comments:
      1) The ability to turn out successful adults is not the primary metric for education. The ends do not justify the means. Multiple psychology studies have demonstrated that sociopathy is very highly correlated with success; I would assume that we don’t want schools churning out sociopaths.

      2) The anecdotes are insufficient to establish that successful graduates are normal. This would require a statistical sampling relevant to the population size, and would also include determining what constitutes “successful”. For example, I have a brother who never graduated college and is a grunt in the Army. He has earned just about every honor and badge the military has to offer, but he doesn’t exactly make bank. I have another brother with two undergraduates and two masters degrees from prestigious schools – and a mountain of debt. Successful?

      So while I will quickly admit that there is nothing in this post or video to indicate that ACE schools can’t churn out successful students, we don’t have any evidence the other way either.

  23. This one hits close to home! My younger sister had an autism spectrum disorder and schizeoeffective disorder, and the teachers in our ACE school were definitely not educated in how to teach kids with special needs! She was on medication for her paranoia/hallucinations and the medication sometimes made her fall asleep at her cubicle. The teacher would give her demerits for falling asleep even though it was a side effect of the medication she was on and it wasn’t her fault. She got detention regularly because of the accumulation of demerits. There was also one time in the gym when some boys were tossing a football and accidentally hit my sister. Because of her autism she was unable to express her feelings with words properly and because of her schizoeffective disorder she was paranoid that the boys had thrown the ball at her on purpose because they didn’t like her. So she picked up the ball, slammed it on the ground, and angrily stormed out of the gym. The next day my parents were called in to a meeting with the pastor who suggested that they “not rule out the possibility of demon possession”. My parents were shocked! They had told him about her diagnoses before but you know how in IFB churches there is no such thing as hormonal imbalances in the brain! It’s always demon possession or unrepentant sin that causes mental issues. Needless to say my parents whisked her outa that school as fast as they could!

    Btw the pastor would also say stuff like how he worked in a pharmacy once and therefore can tell the difference between mental illness and just plain laziness and/or demon possession. Because working in a pharmacy is the same as being psychiatrist. Okay. *rolls eyes*

    1. I’m not really qualified to be a Fundy Christian School Principal, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

  24. Ahhhh, ACE. Ahhhh, PACEs. Ahhhh, tiny Christian school.
    I was lucky – one of our teachers actually WAS a teacher, with experience in the public school system. She was also mortally terrifying, and insisted that camels store water in their humps, not fat, but overall I appreciate that she taught me a lot about how to write.
    But yes, the education was pretty crappy. Let’s face it.
    I’m luck in that this was in Canada, so the school had to meet certain standards. For instance, every year we were given Canadian Achievement Tests to see how our education was going. Unfortunately, these primarily tested English and Math skills. They did not address science skills.
    Our science stank. Our Physical Education was nearly non-existent. Art class meant colouring pages.
    I found out years later that I have ADHD. I also have an inability to do math, dumb as that sounds. But there was no help for kids who didn’t ‘get’ something. They were mostly yelled at by the aforementioned teacher. I remember one little guy who had a definite learning disability. I remember him getting yelled at and insulted, told he wasn’t trying hard enough, that he was being stupid. Poor kiddo.
    For me probably the weirdest effect was on my perceptions of myself, honestly. The weird fundy sexualisation thing. I was about 10, and adults were discussing my body with me, my perceived modesty (or lack thereof) which apparently was implied by my not wearing an undershirt under my blouse. Ew! No! We were segregated by sex, as well – boys had to eat at one table, girls at another, even when the boys and girls in question were 5 years old. Ew, again! You guys do not get to think sexualising thoughts about little kids, you creeps!
    I don’t really blame the people who ran the place; they were sort of following accepted ways of running an ACE school. And it was good in some ways – the pastor’s wife (of course the pastor was the principal) who actually ran the place was one of the kindest people I’ve ever known, and she showed the value of expecting the best of people, and treating them like they already ARE what you hope they can be. ‘Problem’ kids were constantly being put into our school because every other school in the district had kicked them out, and she’d love those kids into well-behaved individuals. You just couldn’t bear to disappoint her.
    The rest of it was pretty awful. There was no culture. There was no encouragement of critical thinking. Creationism was the only possible option, scientifically. There was no job preparation. There were no electives for kids to discover their skills. There was NO literature: our ‘literature’ courses consisted of biographies of missionaries, which is a flipping travesty.
    Eventually that school shut down, and I homeschooled through an ACE-based distance eduction school. Also a terrible idea. Kids who have learning problems with math should not try to do Math PACEs all on their own. Dear Lord, that was a hell.
    Now I’m in university, hoping to go to grad school. Those Christian schools goofed it up pretty good – because of the crappy Math, I ended up having to go to a lesser ‘college’ first, the only place that would take me, and then transfer to a university. Oh well – at least while I was at that college I learned that I didn’t want to do journalism, and instead headed into criminology! Wheeeee!

  25. as an educator, might I just say…I LOVE THIS!! I am quite sad for the boy who appears to have been dealt with very inappropriately. Good for him to get his fundy school tuition back! A 2 year degree and she’s the principal??? Seriously? I have a M. Ed. + 43 credits and I can’t get a principal’s license in most states until I have M. Ed+60.
    It points out a larger problem in our society today. We have too many experts in education with a 2 year degree or less thinking they know all about teaching because they sat in a classroom as a student at some point. We have too many people that believe the answer is self paced, fill in the right oval, don’t think too much, just put down the “right ” answer. It will be the downfall of our society.
    A democratic society relies upon a well functioning system of public education.

  26. How did I know this case was going to be about an ACE school? What amazes me is that ACE hasn’t fallen in under its own weight twenty years ago. The founder of ACE used to claim that the decline in the morality of the public schools was the reason you couldn’t get good service in a restaurant, while he was traveling around the country as a serial adulterer. His wife sued him for the business in their divorce proceedings and still runs what is left of it today.

    Somehow this was passed on as the “Hope for America.” My theory is that God is going to punish Hitler by making him share a cell in hell with Don Howard.

    1. For fun, several years ago, I looked at what ACE is currently offering, and to be honest, the curriculum seems to have only gotten worse. They had “sample” PACEs on their site and looking at them now, they seem pretty horrible for what they are supposed to be doing.

  27. This brings back memories. Such as my junior high school English and History teacher whose only education past high school was in phlebotomy. And all she really did was yell at us or read the book out loud.

    And while the high school I graduated from used to have higher standards than that, the recession cost them the teachers that were any good and have replaced them with “teachers” who are crappy but are in good with the pastor. It has ruined me for all Christian schools; my husband and I would rather try our hand at it with our master’s degrees than put them in a school like that.

  28. What an arrogant judge. I suppose folks with “just” a high school diploma should be happy simply breathing the same air as this self-important blowhard!

    1. Not arrogant at all. It’s contextual. I’m sure she’d say that there’s nothing wrong with a grocery checker or a secretary or a mechanic having only a high school diploma. but there *IS* something wrong with this arrogant couple thinking that they can effectively educate others with so little education themselves. They certainly have ~0~ training and capability for assessing and dealing with kids with behavioral problems or other needs. And *that* is what Judge Judy was so incensed about.

  29. I made the mistake of putting our kids in our church’s “Christian school” for 3 years. We pulled them out to homeschool and I would put them back in the “Academy” when hell freezes over! I don’t have enough time to tell you all of the issues I have with that horrible place. If it shut down tomorrow, I would throw a party and shoot off fireworks. The “academics” are a joke and as usual, the focus is all about appearances: As long as the girls are covered from head to toe and the boys’ hair is regulation length, all is well. Never mind that there is more bullying and sexual harrassment going on there than any public school I ever attended.It’s funny how many “friends” we lost when we made the decision to withdraw our kids and do what WE thought was best as parents. *gasp* I know that’s a difficult concept for some die-hard Kool aid drinkers to fathom.

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