Salesmanship

Here we get some insight from a veteran salesman soul winner on how to close the deal and get the result that you want out of a soul winning encounter.

Don’t give them an out. Don’t give them a choice. Use the stock prayer. Draw the net around the big flopping fish and land that soul for Jesus.

It never ceases to amaze me the arrogance of people who think that they can change a stranger’s entire belief system in a way that will alter their eternal destiny in one conversation that lasts about five minutes. It’s basically the spiritual equivalent of the game run by pick-up artists.

1. Get noticed and make contact.

2. Lower their self esteem and create a need for your affirmation.

3. Make a conquest out of them even though you don’t know them, don’t love them, and won’t ever see them again.

210 thoughts on “Salesmanship”

    1. YES! And why on earth does he think that’s needed to (1) walk around the kitchen, or even worse (2) go “soul winning”? I would think you could/should get arrested for door knocking while packing heat.

      1. Why are we so surprised? Remember the Mog with the anti-Obama and gun owner’s bumper stickers on his red truck?

        It’s part and parcel of the fundy anti-gospel.

        B.R.O.

    2. You know he’s wearing it in the video just to show it off. He’s disappointed there aren’t more chances to do so in real life.

        1. This guy looks like he’s packing just to compensate and not out of necessity/ability. I think Hot Fuzz could take care of him!

        2. Oh, he’d handle him, alright. That’s why I’d rather lock him in the other room. Nothing like seeing your husband answer the door in boxers and a police ID. :wink:

          (Side Note: For those who wonder, no, I don’t really lock my other half anywhere. I just joke with him and say I’m going to. If you knew my silly, crazy cop husband, you’d know why.)

    3. I’m more concerned he’s carrying when there’s a baby in the room. Certainly sounds like it from the background noise: Either a baby or his pastor. Either way it’s someone with a mental age of one.

    4. I carry. I also have a Concealed Weapon Permit. However, the emphasis is on “concealed”. He is just showing it off. I wouldn’t enter anyone’s house with mine showing. Frankly, I wouldn’t enter a stranger’s house. That’s a good way to get mugged or worse. When I was in Fundy-Land, our church had enough sense to tell us to NEVER enter someone’s house. They could mug you, accuse you of something, or sue you if something was broken while you were there. I’d never show off my pistol, especially if I was talking to someone about Christ.

      1. It could be an IWB holster. Regardless, that shirt is not friendly. I hope he has practiced a lot. The first rule of a gunfight is don’t get in one. The second is if you do get in one, make damn sure you win. Regardless, wearing one for a video like this is corny. It really smacks of insecurity – real gun guys don’t feel the need to make sure everyone knows they are armed.

    5. Is it? It looks kinda like my dad’s old-school cell phone holder — the type made to hold those clunky, early 2000s flip phones.

      1. The gun’s not in that little square holder. It’s stuck in his belt (not a safe way to carry a gun, by the way). You can see the gun clearly at the very beginning of the video, when he walks away from the camera and then turns.

        1. Ah, I see it now. Good grief!

          (Whenever I see someone tuck their gun into their waistband, I always flashback to “Harry Potter 4″ where a wizard yells at Harry for putting his wand into his waistband — “you’ll end up blasting off a buttock.” Too bad that bit didn’t make it into the movie.)

        2. I think that the small square holder may be a cell phone case. He’s all that–important enough to have a cell phone and a Glock on his belt.

    6. Looks like a Glock to me. We need to remember that the NRA is not an organization, it’s an organized religion. And yes, I own guns. Lots of guns. But this guy is a douche bag.

    1. RobM, aren’t you aware that a soulwinner’s choice of sidearm is one of the critical points to settle before hitting the pavement? “Look, I’ve told you you’re a sinner and you need Christ. Are you going to say The Prayer or not? You have to ask yourself one question. Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, Punk?”

    2. Holy Crap! You’re right! :shock:
      Why on earth is Mr. Douchebag carrying a gun? :shock:
      Especially in that kitchen? :shock:

      Does he really carry a gun while trying to get people to “voluntarily” repeat his canned prayer? :shock:

      1. This brings up a very important theological question.

        Do sinner’s prayers, prayed under duress, count? Does the Lord see them as valid?

        Mr. heat-packing soul-winner could be putting souls at risk!

      1. I will be replaying this song all night. I will probably cry once. I might dance. I might even go out wandering.

        (nope. It’s close to 30 degrees)

    3. Gives whole new meaning to, “If you died today, do you know where you would spend eternity?”

      I’d personally call the popo on this jackhole if he showed up at my door with a gun.

  1. I wonder if Fundie “Soul winners” believe that they are going to receive royalties for all eternity for the deals they close here on earth?

    I have actually heard a pulpit con man stand before his sheeple and guilt them by pointing out how bad and empty handed folks are going to feel if they get to heaven and have no won souls to give to Jesus.

    What a weak, pathetic, puny god these so called “soul winners” project.

    1. Yes, actually. I have with my personal eyeballs read verses in Soul-Stirring Hymns and Songs that directly allude to the crowns the best soul-winners will get. This being Fundamentalism, there is an extra helping of artificial guilt about how sad Jesus will be if people who could have won souls show up with empty portfolios instead.

      The notion that the souls being collected for exhibition might have something to say about that . . . nowhere to be found.

      1. I’ve said it before, but I feel compelled to say it again: Soul-Stirring Songs & Hymns is quite possibly the worst “hymnal” ever compiled. :evil:

    2. I accepted that guilt for a long time. It took a while before it hit me that the Bible clearly says that some people plant and others water; not all can harvest and if there is a harvest it is due to GOD not ourselves anyway.

      1. It’s still with me to some extent… you’re not in the pastor’s trusted circle unless you are part of the Thursday sales team.

      2. pastor’s wife,

        To the point and on the money as usual– it’s God that “giveth the increase.”

        A tragic problem with many (thankfully not all) fundamentalist organizations is that they take the command to “preach the gospel to every creature,” and turn it into some sort of game, or into some kind of competition sport. The “results” are of course dependent on the greatness of the “soul winner.”

        Certainly many have sincerely turned to Christ while praying something similar to the publican’s prayer in Luke 18:13. The error is the idea that salvation can be manufactured simply by the repetition of the right words. To borrow some of what Don said, the gospel becomes “some guy died and then came back to life.” This is followed by, if you believe that and don’t want to go to Hell, repeat after me… Many have prayed the sinner’s prayer without feeling the weight of their sin and without having a genuine “hunger and thirst after righteousness.” If there is no true turning to Christ, the words, “be merciful to me a sinner” or those from the other “sinner’s prayer,” “remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom,” are meaningless.

        The new birth, growth in grace, and life itself are miracles of God. It seems to me that what many Fundamentalists are in effect trying to do is to artificially manufacture life.

        1. As Clarence Day once wrote, “A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still”.

          Reciting a magic formula does not change a heart, and IMNSHO, a ‘fire-insurance Christian’ is no Christian.

    3. Yep, if you don’t have any souls that you can claim you led to the Lord, then you will not get invited to the “Golden Circle” section of heaven and you’re going to be excluded from the monthly meet-n-greet Dinner and Celestial Networking opportunity.

      You do realize that all those cars pastors award one another down here are only a prelude to the golden Rolls Royce Chariots that await them in heaven. :shock: Can you imagine the fanfare from the heavenly host as Jack Hyles arrives in his solid gold, diamond encrusted, luxury chariot, with vanity plate that reads “HYLESACOST”, pulling in just ahead of the Apostle Peter. :roll:

    4. Amusingly, while there’s no verse in all of Scripture indicating you will be measured by how many “souls you won”, there is a place where the things that fundies will never do for a stranger is required (feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and free the imprisoned).

    5. “Soul winning” is the fundy monopoly-money in their silly religious board game. Heres a fun experiment: Intelligently critique a fundamentalist pastors sermon / doctrine (especially on the ones that are idiosyncratic to fundamentalism). When the animal gets cornered it lashes out. Usually one of the clubs they hit you with is “how many souls have you won for Christ?!!?” or “pastor so and so has won xxx many souls for Christ, what have you done?”(sometimes its not the pastor but a sycophantic pastor-follower from the church). When they use Religious proselytizing guilt trips you know they got nothin.

      1. That is so on the mark. Bob Gray, Sr, was big at this all of the time. He, of course, learned from the master (Jack Hyles), who was (in)famous for his similar “show me your string of fish” line, and other such lines.

        1. No, you’re not. I’m annoyed by that and I don’t care that he’s packing. It’s probably not a good idea to open carry when selling Jesus but I find ‘soulwinning’ more repugnant than possession of a weapon.

          Now if he came to my house and started talking about the merits of the 1911 vs. the M9, I’d listen to him.

        2. omg, came here to say this. I always close ours if the kids leave them standing open – I think have have some minor OCD issues, but not life-ruining… but in a video background??? WHY would you record like this? But obviously, this question gets lost in the huge pile of other disturbing questions that must be answered about this video, lol

        3. That open cabinet was driving me CRAZY!!! Biggest pet peeve of mine..that and chairs not pushed back under the table.

        4. The open cabinet bothered me too. Did you see the stickey note on the inside of the cabinet door? I think it is a note from his wife that says,

          “CLOSE THE CABINET DOOR DOUCHEBAG!”

        5. OMG! You people are all on my *s* list! I leave my cabinets open regularly! I don’t have issues banging my head on them, cause I look where I’m walking! :)

        6. If I’m EVER a guest at our house, Rob, I’m closing all your cabinets, and I don’t care if it’s rude. :wink:

      1. “I was very distracted by the crockpot. I kept expecting it to fall and hurt someone.”

        And I was very distracted by the crack-pot. I kept expecting him to draw and hurt someone.

        1. Good one, Nico. If he were struck in the head by a falling crock pot, it’d be more than talionic justice.

      1. Whew. I’m so glad I’m not the only one! The open cabinet REALLY bothered me, but that crockpot about to fall on someone just put me over the edge. I could only handle about a minute of it.
        And I SO wanted to be able to watch the whole thing so I’d know how to win me some more souls! :wink:

  2. Out of curiosity, of those that had to do this door to door stuff, did anyone ever get saved? I avoided it at all costs, but on the occasions I got roped in the conversation never got this far.

    1. I used to do door to door, usually with my pastor at the time because I worked evenings and we could go out during the afternoon. Had a number of people who made professions, but never saw any of them attend the church.

      The pastor and I had some disagreement on that point. While he preached against easy believism, it was fairly easy to see that he desperately wanted a larger church (which is what his mentor had and where he came from). I always believed that we shouldn’t refer to them as being saved unless we saw them again, whereas he always made a huge deal about it the next Sunday.

      I’ve been gone many years now, but checked their website recently and they are claiming about 5-10 people saved a month through their ministry, although the church itself appears to be about the same size (100) or a little larger (200). An old prayer partner of mine, who is now a missionary to Costa Rico, claims dozens and occasionally a couple hundred a week on his Facebook. At that rate and his tenure, the entire country should be saved now. Judging by pictures, his Sunday attendance appears to be around 20.

      If the theology is correct and you are saved instantly, with the Spirit investing at the moment of faith, then the churches should be bursting at the seams.

    2. None. No notches on my gun handle. But then again, I didn’t have these helpful videos to show me the proper technique. I admittedly suck at selling things, even if the product is Jesus.

      Should I confess this here, now? I’m going to do it. There were times I would leave the church with my street/house assignments, chicken out, and just drive around wondering why I was such a crappy excuse for a Christian.

      Or, instead of doing my list of cold calls, I would focus my time on making the visits to people who had already visited the church and filled out a “Would you like a visit?” card. I did occasionally enjoy some decent talks on these kind of visits, but even then it felt incredibly impolite to just show up at someone’s door. You wouldn’t know it by my posting here, but I’m really shy!

      1. I’m with you on this one. I used to have a bus route and I would enjoy vivisting the kids on Saturday afternoon (not in the morning, how impolite!)I just enjoyed hanging out with them and rarely ever talked about the church, etc. It was always fun to run into them later at the grocery store, and they would recognize you, and say hi; not run away from you.

    3. Nope. Never. But I didn’t get roped into doing it very often. And besides, I’m not exactly a high pressure salesman. Or even a low pressure salesman, for that matter. More of a no-pressure salesman. Probably why I don’t work in sales.

        1. Me three! :) I suck at sales-pitching. . . which may be why I was only in a sales position for just over three months before I quit. :)

          Thank every good thing I never was expected to do door-to-door soul harvesting!

        2. When I was about 10 or so, I somehow got involved with some company that specifically catered to kids as their salespeople. They sent you a catalogue/brochure thing, and you went around to various houses to sell stuff (take the orders and money, then return in a week or two with the product). I got through about one round with reasonable success, although I did notice that people seemed determined to find something to buy – benefit of being a kid.

          Then, I read a hint on how to be a better salesperson – think like the customer! Example was a Fuller Brush Man that would think about how busy the housewife is and what sort of problem she might be dealing with right now that his brushes can help with, to get right to that point. Think of a need that you can fill.

          So, I tried to think like the customer. It didn’t take long. Went something like this: “I don’t really want someone coming to my door and bothering me. I also don’t like feeling pressured to buy because there’s a person standing there watching me, and I do want to support the kid’s business efforts, but I can’t really afford it right now…”

          That was the end of my door-to-door sales career! :mrgreen:

        3. I’m a no-pressure salesman; well, actually, no salesman at all; hated the salesmanship tactics we were taught in soul-winning classes (“It’s all about numbers; if you see one saved for each 15 doors you knock on, you can see 3 saved by knocking on 45 doors.”) That’s huckstering. That’s selling. We should be lifting up Jesus Christ.

          If I had to make a living as a salesman, I’d starve.

  3. I was wondering why there was a baby on the soundtrack. If I was making a video of soul-winning tips, I would a) not do it in my kitchen, and b) not do it with my kids in the room. I might also actually prepare instead of rambling for several minutes.

    1. Agreed. Better location would be great (although he did stray from what could be expected in a video such as this- the old webcam chat). But to me, a little editing goes a long way. It takes about 5 minutes (max) to clip those beginnings and ends where one is walking to/from the camera.

      Also, where was the mother to “correct” those loud noisy children while daddy was showing the world how he could save them???

    1. That’s 100% the approach being advocated here (except that car dealers don’t usually point loaded guns at you).

      I give him about a B+ for salesmanship, and an F for theology.

      1. For a presentation that poorly prepared? I’d give him at best a C. A basic three-point outline would have helped loads. And don’t film in your kitchen, idjit!

      1. No cash? Are you sure you want to go that far? Pastor is not going to be happy if he has congregants showing up without their pocketbooks!

  4. I personally don’t like the red and gray combination on the walls. The black fridge kind of creates a wee bit too much contrast. The fake granite counter tops are tacky too.

    I’m distracted. I wouldn’t listen to him, especially if he wagged his Smith & Wesson model 642 five shot .38 Caliber ultra-lite killing machine.

    On the other hand, that could scare me to a “fox hole confession!”

  5. I strongly suspect that he’s the type who has a gun with him whenever possible, no matter how inappropriate, just so that if anybody ever objects he can claim persecution.

      1. That is only true for visible guns…I know lots of people who carry almost all the time – both civilian and federal law enforcement types who are required to carry. I only carry when the situation demands it because of work locations I am called to. Most CCW carriers you would never know they have a weapon and they are the least confrontational people on the planet. Its the tools like this guy who feel the need to flash their rod everywhere that have low penile esteem. Even if he does carry while out hitting on sinners making this video with it that obvious is nothing more than douchebaggery.

        If people know you are carrying a gun, you’re doing it wrong. Or you’re doing it for the wrong reasons.

        1. IMO, CCW holders SHOULD be some of the least confrontational people. Confrontational personality + deadly weapon is a recipe for disaster.

        2. CS, I totally agree with you. I grew up in a time and place where it was just assumed there was a gun under the driver’s seat, and certainly in the home, but every jerk with issues didn’t feel the need to strap one on and parade around with them.

          Let’s give this guy the benefit of the doubt and say his real life job is a detective, and he has a gun on his hip as a matter of course. I *still* don’t see why he has it on for this video. It reminds me of that freaky Catholic dominionist guy who poses with the giant sword. It does not make you more important, or give you more authority, it waves a red flag to everyone that you have to bolster your self-esteem with a weapon, because your ideas can’t stand on their own.

        3. Captain, I hope you realize I’m not talking about law enforcement officers who have to carry weapons as part of their jobs. I’m talking about people who do it for fun, or because they’re crazy paranoid.

  6. Who is he talking to? Is he talking to the baby I hear in the background. Why is he so far away from the camera and behind the counter?

      1. Oh, and one of the links on the church sites is called Hard Preaching. Most of the videos on this site feature our old friend Steve “Pisseth on the Wall” Anderson. I don’t know why, but I suspected some kind of connection between the Pisser and the Pistol-preacher.

      2. Don’t mean to creep you out, but I’m pretty sure that head is there the entire time. If you look down at the bottom of the screen, there is the person’s shoulder in a white Tshirt popping out. The head sometimes drifts over into shot, but he is always there–always watching.

        1. :shock: Cripes! You’re right! I guess I was focused more on Pistol Pete, hoping he’d get to the point about how a sidearm figures into his sales pitch.

          I’m guessing the head belongs to one of his minions, sitting there listening intently, waiting to be unleashed on an unsuspecting public to feast on their souls.

      3. And if you listen carefully during it, the person on the camera is doing some holy grunting while Pistol Pete is talking.

        1. I just assumed those sounds were coming from the bathroom. “Honey, pipe down, will ya? Cain’t you hear I’m in the kichin doing one of my videos?”

      4. Good find. So this explains why he made the video in his kitchen. Because the congregation meets in his living room. And no wonder he’s concerned about the etiquette of using other peoples’ bathrooms when you visit their homes. He hopes, for petes sake, that the mens will start sitting down to piss because his wife is tired of cleaning up the floor in the bathroom after each and every church service. It all makes sense now.

  7. If I invited a solicitor of any kind into my home and I saw that he had a gun, I would immediately ask him to leave. If he didn’t leave, I would call the police. I don’t care what kind of permit you have or how high and lonely your destiny is. You do not bring a firearm into my home without my consent.

  8. So much wrong with this video on so many levels! Crappy looking kitchen (the cabinet door is open!). Clean it up!
    Crying baby?
    …and then there’s the awful CONTENT – that’s right, folks, close the sale so you can go back to your post-soulwinning wrap up meeting and brag about it.
    Just makes me sad…and mad. :cry: :mad:

    1. “Close the sale” — you got that right, and he as much as said it. The whole thing reminded me of Alec Baldwin in “Glengarry Glen Ross”, teaching his real estate sales staff how to close a deal on a [somewhat specious] piece of property.

      By the way — it occurred to me that in this entire six-and-a-half-minute video, this guy never smiled once. It’s all about the pitch; it’s never about genuine engagement.

  9. He said and I quote “you believe that you are a sinner based on the sins you’ve committed.”

    Hello!?!?!?!?! Say what?

    Are we sinners BECAUSE we sin? um NO!! (His theology).

    Or do we sin BECAUSE we are sinners? um YES!!!! (Correct theology.)

    1. I don’t know if that is the only understanding of what he said. It’s possible he meant that the sins you have committed have proved to you that you are a sinner. Who knows. How about him basing a true salvation on agreement and belief rather than trust and personally embracing the Gospel? I guess he didn’t notice that the devils also believe.

  10. This “pastor” was ordained by none other that the infamous “pastor” Steven L. Anderson of Faithful Word Baptist.

  11. Early on, he talks about being careful not to miss an important part of the Gospel as well as someone who seems to agree with you, but later doesn’t agree on a point.

    To me the answer to that is to not try to present it all in one fell swoop on someone’s doorstep. If someone agreed with you at the door but later you found out that they don’t really believe, maybe they were just intimidated by you and were agreeing just to make you go away.

  12. I don’t understand something here. Many somethings. Why is this guy walking back and forth to turn on and off the camera when this other dude is sitting right there? Why doesn’t the other dude get the kid to pipe down? How did Satan get into that house to get the kid to protest and distract from the work of the lord? Why is that one cabinet face different from all the rest? And for the sake of all that is holy, please move the innocent wedding gift rotating rack of unopened herbs and spices AWAY FROM THE STOVE! Oh and the gun. It doesn’t answer the question of why carry at all on this sales call, but is Az one of the states where open carry is legal but concealed is not?

  13. Is there a trendy but ultimately unused cooking gadget this guy doesn’t own? I see the pressure cooker, the George Foreman, the oh-so-precariously placed crock pot, the designer spice rack, the waffle baker, the rotisserie; if we could pan further, I’m sure there is a juicer and a Magic Bullet just out of view.
    With all that stuff out of the cabinets, what is in the cabinets?
    How many of you wives would be aghast if your husband put this video on youtube without getting that kitchen properly cleaned up first? I think I would feel moved of the Spirit to stay out sale-winning extra long that day.

    1. The thing about most of those gadgets is that you can make the same foods with just the basics: an oven, a stove top, a pot, a frying pan, a spoon, a fork, and a bowl. You don’t really need much else.

      I confess that I have owned a number of single-use cooking utensils, but I didn’t end up using them much.

  14. My older brother graduated from Liberty in the mid 80′s and tells of one of Sumner Wemp’s class assignments was to go into a room with a list of phone numbers and actually cold-call people. The students were given an extensive decision tree to follow as well. Assembly line evangelism! The only difference between my brother and the others was that he didn’t lie about not doing it. It earned him the lowest grade of his life.

    1. *pish* What you do is keep your finger hovering over the “hang up” parts of the phone so that you dial the number but you press down before it can ring. Or you hold it down the whole time as you dial.

      That way, you’re technically “calling” people. Conscience soothed! . . . what? According to Jerry Jenkins, as long as you’re not *technically* lying it’s all good.

  15. I thought I recognized him from FWBC! If I’m not mistaken, he’s in one of Steve’s instructional “door knocking” vids on UTube.

  16. I so want to lampoon this guy, but there are two things keeping me from doing so:

    1. I currently have a .380 in my ankle holster, and

    2. What he is advocating is no laughing matter…it comes from the deepest depths of hell. How many people have fallen victim to this con? This is the damning legacy of Billy Sunday, Charles Finney, John R Rice, Curtis Hudson, Jack Hyles, etc, etc etc. This easy-believism, quick-prayerism, call-it-what-you-like the basic heresy that fundydom is built upon…”look what I did for God!”

    This guy has NO clue about the God of the Bible.

    1. Or what the Gospel actually is, claims, and does.

      According to this church growth movement formula of so-called salvation the Gospel is not enough. It has to be augmented with decisional regeneration.

    2. Big difference between a .380 in an ankle holster and a Glock 26 open carry. One says “interested in not being a victim”, the other says “total douch-bag” (pretty sure its a 26 based on the grip curve). As for point 2, I couldn’t agree more.

  17. I worked a week long campaign with evangelist Joe Boyd and he sat us young preacherboys down and gave us a similar talk (even mentioned how to sit and use the washroom–aim for the side of the bowl to avoid disturbing the prospect). We knocked on doors six hours a day and those with the fewest decisions were shamed every evening. Good times!!

    1. Guilt Ridden,

      If a doctor were to prescribe the same treatment, or medicine and dosage to every patient regardless of ailment, age, weight, gender, or family history, that doctor would soon be sued for malpractice and his or her license to practice medicine would be revoked.

      In Fundystan the “Doctors” routinely employ the “one size fits all” philosophy when writing their “prescriptions.” Naturally any failures resulting from these methods of “treatment” must be the fault of the “patients.”

  18. “You may miss an important part of the gospel” … umm… the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Perhaps he means the “other” gospel by which we take the Holy Spirit’s place and try to convince people that they are sinners.

  19. “You would agree that you’re a sinner, right?”

    I would like to see a Bible reference for that question. I do a see a Bible reference for lifting up Christ and then He will draw men to Himself.

    1. Hearing him say that (“you admit you’re a sinner, right?”) makes me want to go all wide-eyed and serious and say, “nope.”

      “Really? You’ve never cheated or lied or stolen?”

      “No.”

      Just to see his response. Some perverse part of me takes a wild delight in messing with people who take themselves too seriously.

        1. I was the “silent partner”, so my partner had to deal with it. He just didn’t believe the guy and asked him 2-3 more times about various things. Eventually, he gave up and told me after we left that if people don’t realize they are sinners, they cannot be saved.

  20. “The next one is… uh….” (I can see why he can “miss” an important part of his gospel — a self-parody!)

  21. I can see Jesus walking along the sea of Galilee; He finds James and John and says “Follow Me”… but then goes a few paces, and realizes that He hasn’t followed “The Plan”, so he stops them and asks them to verify that they believe that He is God in the flesh, and that Hell is a real place, and …

    You become a Christian by following Christ, not grunting “uh-huh” at a few doctrinal points.

  22. Ah, yes, the old “let’s pray” and then don’t finish the prayer, but ask them to pray, or ask them to repeat after you.

    Another good practice to ask for a Bible passage; there was never any leading someone in prayer to get saved in the Bible.

    1. Kind of like the old Gospel Sing-alongs where the MC or leader of the trio/quartet feeds you the lines to sing.

      “Dear Lord..”
      Dear Lord
      “I’m a wicked, no count, worthless sinner…”
      I’m a wicked… hungh? wha? :shock:

  23. “Even in the prayer, I’ll bring up some points” — in other words, I’m not really praying, I’m pretending to talk to God, but am really talking to the prospect.

  24. “Repeat after me… they’re not just repeating something” — uh, yes they are. And some do it because it is the fastest way to get you off their porch/out of their home.

  25. “If they give you a wrong answer, you know what you need to spend more time on…” so, you admit you lied to them when you asked for 10 minutes of their time… you’re now dragging it out to 30-40 minutes. It would be interesting to have a truth ray and turn it on these people to see what is really going on.

    1. For folks who like to ask the question, “How many lies do you have to tell to be a liar?” after turning to Revelation 21:8, a lot of fundies can be remarkably dishonest.

      I believe in salvation by grace alone through faith alone, but people claiming to represent Jesus Christ should have more respect for the truth.

      1. Christ maintained that children do the works of their Father. In John 8, he excoriated the Pharisees, called them children of the Devil who lied like the Devil and did not abide in the truth.

        So, taking Jesus at His words, those who are (at the least) persistent liars, lies being a habit of their life and belief, must be children of the Devil.

        Maybe they miss the Warm family ties?

        Then again, Christ also said, “If the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness!”

        Now of course, I can’t say directly whether any of these yahoos are “saved” or not. But if they are saved, the product line is severely flawed and does not work as advertised. And since they are the ones selling the product to begin with, looking to close the sale, mind you!, well, you have to ask what their product is, really.

        It doesn’t look like salvation, at least to me.

        So that also is on my list of things to investigate. I asked the Lord to save me. But my understanding of salvation was based on a lot of these people who turned out to be fools, wolves in sheep’s clothing, bad actors, ministers of darkness parading as ministers of righteousness.

        What if it all turns out to be a myth? Or what if I am reading in Scripture what I was conditioned to understand instead of what is actually there? I cannot trust the salesmen on what salvation *is* anymore.

        1. rtgmath,

          You said something a while back about how difficult it is to separate the message from the messenger. On that point, maybe it’s worth remembering that God used Caiaphas to prophesy, the witch of Endor to bring a message to Saul, and even an ass to preach to Balaam.

          We’ve both heard that Christ came into the world to save sinners and that He never has and never will turn away those who come to Him in repentance and faith. If these things are true, they remain so in spite of the moral failings of the messengers. Obviously you know all of this, but I’m just trying to be an encouragement to you.

          Blessings,

        2. Ben, I appreciate your encouragement.

          And yes, I believe God can use fools and idiots and evil people speak his Word.

          But how would one know? How would one be able to parse out the idiocy from the Inspiration? Certainly Caiphas followed his inspired prophesy with blasphemy.

          We know of several rapists who have been accepted as ministers of righteousness by the Fundamentalists. It is a torturous process to see justice done, and a worse process to see fundies take any of it seriously.

          I still believe the Gospel. But if a fundamentalist tries to tell the gospel, I usually wonder what they have up their sleeve. How many fundies have committed sexual immorality, stolen money from their congregations, lorded it over others, demanded slavish loyalty and devotion? Do they have any right to be believed on anything? Should they be?

          If someone had stolen your money, then came to you and wanted to tell you how to be saved from your sins, would you listen?

          I am not asking for perfection. I am just asking that the drastic inconsistencies not exist. I am asking that those who preach salvation actually act like they are saved. I would like to see some evidence.

          My priest at the Episcopal Church does not believe Christ died to bear the punishment for all our sins. He believes Christ died to show us how far God was willing to go in His love for us and his desire to be reconciled to us. He says the problem is not that God is angry with us for our sins, but that our sins won’t allow us to believe in anything but an angry and vengeful God.

          By any fundy account, he would be hellhound. Yet he exhibits more evidence of salvation, reverence for God and man than most fundies I have ever known.

          So yes, you can get the water of life out of a pool of muck. But you’d best strain it, filter it and disinfect it first.

  26. If you can reduce it to a sales pitch, you are doing the Gospel wrong.
    If you can reduce it to a formula, you are doing the Gospel wrong.
    Honestly, we see no evidence of the apostles and Jesus going around with a sales pitch. You don’t see them forcing a decision out of someone.

    and the repetition of points? Because if you don’t have all those points, salvation can not happen. That whole thought of God saving those who call on the name of the Lord Scripture writers spoke of is just not enough for fundies like this.

    1. If you have reduced the gospel to a sales pitch, it is no longer the gospel. Salvation is not a transaction. It is a relationship. “Christ in you, the hope of glory.”

      This whole “Romans Road,” “altar call,” “close the sale” mentality is an attempt to shut down the person’s thinking and just put them in a state to assent to whatever is suggested to them.

      The gospel should actually change one’s life. I know far too many “Christians” whose lives are indistinguishable from most other pagans — except that the pagans take responsibility for their actions, while Christians just claim forgiveness and keep on offending.

      One needs to examine the product. If you are sold a cleaner, and it doesn’t clean or actually makes things dirtier quicker, you throw the product out and don’t use it again. Either salvation works, or it doesn’t. And if it doesn’t work here on earth, there is no guarantee it will get you to heaven.

      I think Jesus had something to say about this in Matthew 7. “Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not …”

      1. rtgmath,

        At one time, the latter part of Christ’s response amazed me,”… depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

  27. We sure wouldn’t want to waste any time building a relationship w/ that person and spending time w/ them now would we?? Ssshhh

    1. If his cupboard door is open, I tremble to consider the possibility that he doesn’t even have Armor-all on his tires!

  28. ISN’T THIS ALSO WHAT PICKUP ARTISTS TRY TO DO?

    1. Get noticed and make contact.

    2. Lower their self esteem and create a need for your affirmation.

    3. Make a conquest out of them even though you don’t know them, don’t love them, and won’t ever see them again.

  29. My confession. For several years, I squirmed during sermons when the pastor would ask how may had “won a soul” for Jesus. Then our church adopted a system devised by D. James Kennedy of Coral Gables, FL. We deployed in teams of 3 visiting people who had visited our church. In the absence of visitor cards, we either went “cold calling” or went to a large mall for witnessing. We did pray with individuals as they “accepted the gift of eternal life.” I have no idea how many of those “conversions” actually resulted in changed lives.

  30. Sooo…sharing the Gospel is all about forcing someone to make a commitment they might not be ready for? Sounds great! *snort*

    Why did he make this video in the kitchen? Why didn’t he close that cabinet door before he started? That bugged me the whole time!

    1. Outside of the reducing the Gospel to a sales pitch formula, the location of the video irked me too. What made him think “me standing at the kitchen counter would make for a good video?”

      It is different from other videos where the person sits behind their large desk with books piled behind them and on the desk to look more authoritative.

      1. I think it would have been more effective if he’d been in the living room, sitting casually on the sofa, leaning forward slightly, with an open Bible in hand- as thought he were talking to someone about the Lord. If he were in the sort of setting in which someone would have been using this teaching, it would be easier to imagine and remember.

        However, given the state of the kitchen, maybe his living room would not be the best place for filming…

    1. I wondered about that a couple of times. It’d be hard to believe he really did, but there’s some kind of effect there that at least implies he’s got one.

    2. Holy Jesus save us! Next thing you know he’ll be sitting down to take a piss.

      I’m with RobM–with his connections to Pisser Anderson, it’s hard to believe he’d wear an earring. In public, anyway. I imagine Bro. Anderson would immediately revoke Pistol Pete’s ordination for violating the “Pertaineth Law” (Deut. 22:5) Only wimin and Ishmaelites wear earrings.

    3. In the old gay bathhouse era, wearing a single earring in the left ear supposedly meant something (about one’s, er, recreational preferences), wearing one in the right ear meant something else, wearing two earrings, meant another thing, etc. Anybody remember what the code was?

        1. Yes. When I first got my nose pierced, my Dad asked them if there was any particular meaning to the nostril choice.

    4. Israelite men commonly wore earrings in their day. That we now look at that as somehow perverted shows how great the culture shifts have been over the millennia.

    1. We are products of our culture.

      We talk about gay because our culture is infatuated with gay. Next year it’ll be something else.

      B.R.O.

  31. You know, I didn’t even play the video until just now, and I did it only to get a closer look at his weapon. I played it with the sound off and discovered I could turn on the captioning. The captioning is so off it’s beyond funny. I couldn’t help but wonder if his actual words made as much nonsense as was showing up on the screen.

  32. Dear SFL Reader:

    Yeppers! This guy knows da gospel fer sure!

    A stock prayer … but not a ritual.

    For some people, it is a pilgrimage. Others will recommend another religious act, or assent to some creed [see 6:40-50, and 7:00]. But the answer is a prayer. Really, it is. A stock prayer, but not a ritual. See the difference?

    7:37 — ‘they don’t know where you’re going with this anyway.’

    That I can believe.

    Christian Socialist

    PS: Did I mention that this guy really knows the gospel?

    1. Well, at least he knows his gospel.
      And… he knows the word “g-o-s-p-e-l.”
      Too bad it doesn’t resemble the Gospel presented in Scripture.

      1. I’m having a difficult time with this realization. It is NOT the gospel! Yet they continue to bully those who disagree. They are some sick puppies.

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