139 thoughts on “Mixed Messages Redux”

  1. Well, how much the difference between holy fire and unholy fire matters depends on editions. In some editions, you need both Resist Holy/Unholy AND Resist Fire or you take full damage, in some you only take damage from the part you don’t have resistance to (So, half damage), in others you split the damage in half, then apply the resistance to that half as appropriate. It’s a pain if you switch editions a lot, the resistance rules keep changing.

  2. Why does it say Matthew Anderson (from North Carolina) has a singing group from Michigan? Surely the fundies proofread before sending to press? SMH & rolls eyes

    1. “Don’t you normally put images of the nefarious villain as part of the shady off to the sides background imagery?”

      That’s what I was thinking, too. They made their guest speaker look like a villain.

      I also agree with Darrell’s observation,
      “Those flames may allegedly be revival fires but the entire thing seems to smack much more of Hades than heaven.”

      It kind of reminds me of the Drew Barrymore movie “Firestarter”

      Maybe my memory is off, but didn’t Carrie set fire to the school gym at the end of “Carrie?”

  3. I’m no Pastor Dr., but isn’t fire usually a sign of judgment in the Bible? The exceptions I can think of are the burning bush, the fiery, cloudy pillar, & the tongues of fire at Pentacost. Where, how, & why did the term “revival fire” originate, anyway?

        1. To the best of my knowledge it came out of The Great Awakening time, but IDK how you go about finding the exact origin. I can’t think of anywhere in scripture that uses that term.

        2. I would think it should be a negative reference for the “Burnt Over District” that is the result of Charles Finney’s revivalism.

  4. No body panic! If Slobberin’ Sammy is preaching then he’ll spray enough spittle to put any fire out (Revival or otherwise)… at least for the first three rows.

  5. Revival Fire… What the hell is that?

    Revivalism is a man-made, hyped-up, emotional/experiential/behavioral exercise that is designed to gin up religious feelings through heavy handed manipulation techniques in order to drive people to the altar in order to get right with the god of their imagination!

    I’ll bet 2:1 that somewhere in their promotional campaign they use 2 Chronicles 7:14 as a revival sales pitch.

        1. Well, now IFB Doctrine dictates that the Holy Spirit can’t do anything without the help and direct intervention of the M-O-g or an Evangelist you know. πŸ™„

    1. I’ve heard Elijah’s contest with the propehts of Ball used before. The part where “the fire of The LORD fell”. Just that phrase used as the basis of a whole sermon.

      1. Oy Vey! these pulpiteers need a good dose of Old Testament life for a week or so… then let’s see how out-of-context they preach.

  6. I’m a bit surprised that they didn’t put a cloven fire over Hamblin in order to sell him as being touched with the Holy Spirit, but I guess that would be too blatantly Pentecostal. πŸ™„

  7. Reminds me of one of those old “repent or burn” movies they used to show at teen events. He looks like the first victim. {smo}

  8. Pastor Doctor??? That also got my gizzard. Why can’t he just be Pastor Sammy Allen or “Dr.” Sammy Allen. I mean the great Jack Hyles never referred to himself as Pastor Dr. Jack Hyles His Lordship. But I digress.

    I can’t seem to find any sermons from “Dr.” Allen.

  9. This kind of thing is one of the very reasons that last night was my final night in the IFB. Talk about a trial by fire!

    Leaving is a story for another time.

    BRO

      1. Thanks, DFP

        It was brutal. We were forced to meet with all the members in a special business meeting called at the last minute. We were not allowed to leave gracefully.

        We’ve not begun the “grieving” process, and are looking forward to our new adventure!

        “at ease,” is exactly how I feel.

        1. Sorry to hear about the bad ending, but things will get better with time. Enjoy the adventure. I found out that the “other” churches were not at all what I was led to believe. I felt like I actually worshipped God the first time I went to a United Methodist Church. It was an amazing experience.

        2. Glad to hear that you’ve escaped!

          A courtroom is something you can’t escape, especially if you’re in jail leading up to it. A church business meeting IS something adults can escape. Just don’t go. If they try to force you to stay, dial 911 on your cell phone. They will back down.

        3. E.C.

          I know what you mean when you wrote, “just don’t go.”

          We weren’t asked if we wanted to participate, it was assumed we would submit to the will of the “pastor.” We submitted for the sake of those with whom we had built relationships over the years.

          I told my wife in advance that if I stand up, stand up with me because we were walking out. It didn’t come to that, though I regret having subjected my wife and I to that form of inquisition which ended with a defaming personal remark by the “pastor.”

        4. Were they hoping to discredit you amongst the congregation in an attempt to prevent others from leaving too? Cause my former Fundy pastor always claimed that no one left a church alone – they always influenced others to leave also.

          So members who left were often discredited…but never in their presence.

        5. From over twenty years in the ministry, I must admit I’ve seen an awful lot of people influence other people to leave. It’s much more rare for one person (or family) to leave quietly and not have a ripple effect.

          That said, there’s no way someone who wants to leave should be shamed for choosing to leave or subjected to a public tongue-lashing.

        6. @Used-To-Be-Fundy:

          We wrote an open letter to avoid being discredited when we were gone. We’ve witnessed people leave in the past where the pastor filtered what they told him and then gave it to the congregation. He would then say something like, “Just because someone leaves, doesn’t mean there is something wrong with us.” We were also instructed not to go the them, but to meet with him if we had any questions.

          The open letter was to let others know that we were not angry with them and that we desired God’s blessing on their lives. Because we wrote a letter to every member the pastor decided to call the last minute “business meeting” so that we could be publicly questioned about our differences in philosophy of ministry.

          There was no grace from the pastor, though one man did speak up for what he believed was our church’s predominate problem…false pride.

        7. Dear BigRedOne:

          Real churches have something called church polity. Among other things, church polity means that business meetings are announced publicly no less than ten days in advance. Moreover, the agenda [i.e., the reason for the meeting] is stipulated in the announcement, and no business not on the announcement can be considered.

          Independent churches detest ecclesiastical polity because it follows Scriptural principles, defends member rights and establishes accountability for all.

          That said, I wish I could have been present at your side for that meeting.

          Blessings!

          Christian Socialist

        8. @Christian Socialist

          Yep, I wish you could have been there as well.

          I didn’t think about the church constitution regarding the governing of business meetings. I was just trying to do the right thing for the right reason.

          I appreciate your input.

      2. There’s life after IFB, believe us. When we left, we endured a Sunday morning sermon about King David saying he’d miss the house of God more than he’d miss his family ( some obscure verse in Psalms).

        You’ll find that God doesn’t live in heir little box of rules – He’s much nicer than they make Him out to be!

    1. @BigRedOne

      Welcome to the dark side. Try the cookies.

      Seriously though, welcome to the world outside Fundystan.
      I felt like I was discovering Christianity anew. It is an amazing experience. I hope you enjoy it and wish you the best.

    2. I appreciate the response!

      I’m going to hang out here for a while and maybe head over to the forum to see if I can share what happened to us. I’m sure our story must be similar to many others here.

      1. BRO, I can empathize with your pain. I was recently lynched in a mainline church. Yes, we have polity and by laws, and all sorts of ecclesiastical structure and protection–but that does not grant us respite from antagonists and incompetents and the lily livered. As I said to two of the folks who were to have helped me–and they did not– “I have been thrown out of better bars.” This followed my my Beloved and I having reminded them of their failures in this and that I did not appreciate hem following the usual practice of hurling the pastor under the bus. There are some churches even Jesus cannot pastor nor is he welcome there πŸ˜€ .

    3. BigRedOne (I assume your handle refers to your oversized, red leather-bound KJV? :wink:) I think your former “pastor’s” ambush may be a blessing in disguise. Hurtful as it was, you were shown his true colors and thus will be able resist the temptation to return.

      I wish for you & your wife comfort & healing from your spiritual wounds, as well as a renewed abundance of the fruit of the Spirit.

  10. There is so much in this that is just wrong but something else I noticed is the dates – a few days before Christmas! I pity the children in this church who will be forced to sit through it.

  11. This designer is not thoroughly convinced that the first letter in Revival is actually an R or was ever intended to be an R… it appears to be a D with a decorative swash. Meaning it reads Devival. Which makes it look a lot like Devil Fire Grenade, which would be an awesome band name.

    Also whatever happened to the ‘appearance of evil’ thing people like this tend to go on about… this seriously looks like the cover of one of the Devil May Cry video games.

      1. I pulled up the Amazon preview on this book. I’m going to read this one. Not too far from 100 years later and it doesn’t seem like much has really changes in fundamentalisn.

  12. In all seriousness (unlike my customary posts) this reminds me that the entire IFB movement is fear-based. This “spirit of fear” doesn’t come from God. It comes from the fundamentalist’s desire to manipulate and control.

    1. When I came to that realization, it was huge: how much fear was in all of the teachings I’d been surrounded with all my life and how often Scripture said to “Fear not.”

      1. Their desire to control is visceral, instinctual, and based in their own fear–of losing control..in particular, their fear of losing control over their wives.

    2. Yes, I believe all legalism plays on our fear.

      * Fear our kids will be influenced by Satan means sheltering them to the extreme.

      * Fear Hollywood will influence us means staying away from media.

      * Fear someone might find your wife/daughter attractive means breaking out the fundy burquas.

      * Fear that singles will have premarital sex means creating ridiculous rules to keep then separated.

      It is all fear based, and that is no way to live.

      1. * Fear your congregation will learn more from other pastors than you, means forbidding them from reading Piper, MacArthur, etc. Don’t want them asking you hard questions…no sireee.

  13. @BigRedOne: congratulations on your exit from the IFB movement. I left 33 years ago as a young Bob Jones grad. That’s one decision I have never regretted. It sounds as if you and your family went through some serious spiritual abuse. I’m really sorry. It will get a whole lot better.

    1. Thank you. I know too much now to go back. If I went back I’d owe my wife and children an apology. I have not lost my faith.

  14. This ad may be more clever than it looks.
    The prospect of seeing John Hamblin incinerated, not once, but three times, may be such powerful wish fulfillment that many, many Fundies will find it irresistible.

  15. It took me several looks at the picture before I saw the three faces of Dr Hamblin… at least he’s not two-faced! πŸ™‚

    I really thought Darrell was referring to some different ad for this event, or maybe a different web page.

  16. Damn I am now sad. I have pre-chosen to spend that weekend and through christmas day in Wisconsin with my family! Now I hope da lord tarries till I can hear this asshole speak. πŸ˜€

    1. It’s an interesting experience; his alliteration of points seems highly forced and artificial; he normally expends his second point with three subpoints, and THEY are all alliterated as well.

      I sometimes think if he worked as hard on studying the Word of God as he does on his alliteration, he may actually be a help and comfort to people.

  17. “Pastor Dr. Sammy Allen”? Does he get offended if addressed as just “pastor” and not “pastor doctor”? (something tells me yes).

    Also, I think it was a smart visual scheme to progress from scowling unpleasantness in the top left corner, to an ambiguous but intense camera stare in the middle, to smiling young faces in the lower right corner. I approve of the emotional color gradation. (notice also how the most intense scowls have been relegated to blending in with the red background and the flames, instead of being allotted their own picture frames. A brilliant graphic design move, really).
    πŸ˜†

  18. Sammy Allen?? Heard him preach one time when I was a kid. I was sitting on the end of a row…he came to where I was (beside me in the aisle) and preached awhile. He literally threw sweat all over me. That’s preaching! NOT. πŸ˜₯

      1. I’m a mom & I can handle grossness. Poop, snot, pee, blood, puke, sweat…I’ve seen & handled them all without getting queasy.

        But saliva, for some reason, completely squicks me out. As in dry-heaving, running from the room, somebody ELSE better clean that up, squicks me out.

        I would not react well to being spat upon by a “preacher” screaming a “sermon” at close quarters. πŸ˜•

        1. I think a majority of PCC speakers took pride in how far into the “spit pit” they could get their expulsions to travel.

  19. he even looks a little shiny in the picture . . .
    One of the least pleasant visual images in the world is a preacher screaming himself silly in a too-hot wool jacket in an under-air-conditioned room until you can see the sweat literally drip off of him. I’ve seen it enough to know.

      1. Oh, Don. Don’t you know that a ‘warnint’ is kinda like a ‘varmint’? A backwoods boy like you should know that.

        1. IDK, Don. I think George was right the first time. It totally works either way though.

    1. Bro Ray, you realize there’s going to be a few of your readers who are going to check this out anyway, and some of those might just get to thinking… πŸ˜‰

      1. I’m guessing there will be few of us who even link to the site again, and of those who do, it’s unlikely any will return to the asylum.

      2. Maybe Ray’s eyes will be opened by hanging out with us and he will one day join us in Celebrating Freedom in Christ and his release from the legalistic prison he is in now. I pray it will be so.

    2. Bro. Ray – Best part of you copying the Shakespeare image is that the hover-text is still in place. You are a gem my friend.

      BTW – did you yell at anyone on your vacation?

      1. Probably not. People who rant like that on the internet generally don’t have the guts to do it in public, and it makes them feel like a real life persecuted preacher from the comfort of their living room.

    3. Since Bro. Ray has a history of completely rewriting comments left on his site, I thought I’d post my response to his ‘Quiz’ post here. Just in case.

      “So, do you believe the translators of the AV1611 (which contained the Apocrypha, by the way) had no need of any translation aids, despite their lack of first-hand knowledge of Ancient Greek and Hebrew?”

    4. Bro.. Ray: Do you honestly believe that those of us who’ve escaped legalism will ever allow ourselves to be brought into bondage again? It was for freedom that Christ has set us free.

      It is far more likely that those who are in chains on your site will desire the freedom in Christ we have. At least I hope so.

      And by the way, English didn’t exist as a language when the Scriptures were written.

      1. I’m with semp, I don’t think a scheduling thing is going to make this disaster attendable. Incentives aren’t going to help either.

  20. Why does Mr. Hamblin look so irritated? Or is he just constipated?

    Now look into Pastor Doctor Allen’s eyes. Ask yourself, Would I let my teenage daughter or son be counseled by him? Honestly, does he look trustworthy?

    1. Sammy Allen…….the very reason I cannot listen to a screaming preacher. I remember him WALKING OVER THE PEWS so he could preach in my face, all the while spitting on me and dripping sweat off his face onto the lap of my skirt.

      I was sure as hell destined to run to the altar and get saved at invitation time……at every single revival he preached at our church. The man scared the bejeebus outta me.

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