373 thoughts on “(Abandoned) Standards”

  1. “Yes, ma’am. Whatever the pastor would like.” Apparently what the 16 year olds of the “church” said to Schaap’s secretary. What a perverted freak show FBCH is.

  2. I have to say I thought this was aimed at Jack Schaap, not his wife. After all, what good IFB man lets his wife go out in clothing that he himself has not approved? Either he’s a hypocrite for letting his wife own these things, or for not being in control of his family like he preaches.

    1. I prefer a slightly different take on it–
      The IFB “standards” are so meaningless, so burdensome, and so all-around ridiculous that even the top IFB people don’t bother to take them seriously.

      1. That’s it exactly.

        I remember at my Fundy U, the president’s wife would regularly wear things that, if a female student wor them, she would have been given demerits and forced to go back to the dorm to change and/or possibly gotten chewed out by a dean.

        That’s not to say anything the president’s wife wore was ever really bad. But she did not follow the roles what were enforced on the students.

      2. Agreed. The rules never apply to the royal families of fundyism, just to the loyal subjects.

  3. It makes me sick to read all of these gleeful attacks on the IFB and Pastor Schaap. It is sad that you all rejoice when the church has troubles. What side does that put you all on? On the enemy’s side. You all should think about what you are doing and what powers you are serving.

    Yes, despite all of your jokes, this woman is rebelling. The Bible places the pastor at the head of his house, and when the authority in a household is weakened, there is a natural tendency for the rest to test the rules. Genesis 3:16; Colossians 3:18;1 Peter 3:1.

    The pastor has been under attack by the media and the government and has been prevented from serving his Biblical role as leader of the household. When the general is absent, the foot soldiers lose their discipline. So with the leader out of picture, why should anyone be surprised when the Schaap family starts to show signs of rebellion? This is exactly what the Bible says would happen.

    1. Given the history of FBCH and it’s leadership it strains one’s ability to imagine that God is on the side of this church… or on the inside either.

      If what the House of Hyles has been selling is Christianity then I want nothing of it. But the House of Hyles has been selling Churchianity and man worship wrapped the bondage of legalism in the name of Jesus.

      Ichabod be thy name.

      1. Sorry for the late post. For the first time I am reading stuff from the top.

        Legalism is way off mark here. There is no legalism preached at FBCH. Salvation by grace through faith in Christ. Where’s the legalism in that?

        1. That is the problem of narrowly defining “Legalism”
          There is a multitude of error that is overlooked and excused when legalism is only applied to salvation.

          Jesus fought against legalism during his entire ministry and it was not limited to Soteriology. Paul battled against the Judaizers who were adding works after salvation much the same way the IFB and the pastors at FCBH have always done.

          Anytime someone projects their personal standards onto another person in order for that other person to be “right with God” or “a Christian in good standing”… that is legalism.

      1. Agreed. Has to be a Poe. This is too well written for a resident of Fundystan. Or, possibly, the only Fundy ranter with a grasp of spelling, grammar, and punctuation rules.

    2. You have a Kool-Aid IV hooked up, don’t you?? You do understand that your pastor was mounting a 17 year old girl, right? His wife SHOULD rebel. She should do a Lorainna Bobbit and cut off his manhood and stick them in a snowglobe on the mantle.

    3. And good for her for “rebelling.” She needs to get out of that disaster of a relationship and get away from her abusive, adulterous rapist husband. Are you seriously sitting here saying that a woman has to stay with her husband even after he has raped a teenager? Have you lost your mind?

      I hope she leaves him, divorces him, and finds a healthy church where she can grow.

    4. Oh no, you again!?

      When you finally display some appropriate outrage over more important issues, such as the following:

      1) Jack Schaap has been charged with sexually abusing a minor who came to him for counseling.
      2) HAC/FBCH has a history of many, MANY men who have sexually abused women and children
      3) Both Jack Hyles and Jack Schaap have taught doctrines from the pulpit that are well outside the bounds of Christian orthodoxy

      THEN maybe we’ll take you seriously. Until then, forget it.

      Oh yeah, you’re a Fundamentalist. Banging minors, stealing wives, and abusing women are awesome. Those minors and women daring to tell the truth about sexual and other abuse? Not so much. Perverted, the whole lot of it.

      1. 1 – We know that. He has confessed and repented. You just get off on repeating it. Talking about sin probably sexually excites you.

        2 – Lies. You all just take a few cases and try to smear the church. Sure a few men have fallen but the Bible teaches that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Why do you attack Christian men for being human? And just so you know HAC is going to soldier on. It isnt going anywhere so watch this HAC video announcement and go cry in your soup fool!

        3 – More lies. You are a deceiver and when you stand before the judgment throne you will wish you had the chance to take back all your lies, but it will be too late for you. If you want to know what is preached at HAC and FBCH, just pick up a KJV Bible and read it.

        1. This is hilarious. I’m laughing because, for all the bashing of worldly institutions that comes from fundamentalist, HAC/FBCH has such a vile, arrogant, jerk of a leader.

          I’m also laughing because wearing open-toe shoes is *not* a sin. While God is big enough to care about all things, I just don’t believe He cares about women in open-toe shoes. What could be considered rebellion is the blatant hypocrisy coming from these two women (Schaap’s wife and daughter), who have supported such a pharasaical monster in his endeavors to have the upper hand. I mean that, the man is a monster. He’s stood in front of many people, *preaching* about the do’s and don’t’s of some made-up Christianity. For Schaap, it’s about drawing as many lines as possible, keeping the ignorant in-step, and getting off on it. Schaap has abused the knowing and the ignorant. He has held his form of “god” in his hand, claiming that the gift of Christ is free, only to jerk it away when someone refuses to follow his drawn-lines.

          I think it’s pretty safe to say that Schaap has done plenty of attacking himself. He is the perfect example of “the higher they climb, the harder they fall”.

        2. Wow, you’re a sick character.

          “Talking about sin probably sexually excites you.”

          Not hardly, Davis, but your accusation makes me wonder if you’re typing one-handed.

          AFA calling the list of abusers coming out of the IFB (and FBCH in general) only “a few”: Delusional!
          http://jeriwho.net/lillypad2/ See that sidebar? That’s not just “a few” there. That’s Perverts on Parade!

          “More lies. You are a deceiver and when you stand before the judgment throne you will wish you had the chance to take back all your lies, but it will be too late for you. If you want to know what is preached at HAC and FBCH, just pick up a KJV Bible and read it.”

          Oh really? what about Jack Hyles’ views on… ugh, nearly everything… see http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/hyles/errors.htm or Jack Schaap’s fifth view of communion? (For those who don’t know: The normal four views are transubstantiation, consubstantiation, spiritual presence, and simple memorial. Schaap adds his own view, spiritual intercourse. See for yourself at http://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/schaap.html) Both of them went so far out of the realm of orthodoxy that they couldn’t even see it from where they stood.

        3. Attacking Christian men for being human? There’s nothing human about sexual abuse. There’s also nothing sexual about sexual abuse — it’s a vile perversion of God’s design. If you find abuse arousing, you’re as sick as he is, Davis.

          How about some concern for the victim? But oh, wait — she’s female. Let me guess: She was asking for it? She lured him into temptation? She was wearing open-toed shoes?

          You’re sick and sadistic, and instead of threatening us all with the judgment seat, you might want to consider how God will look at you that day …

        4. Just because this man and his family (all descendants of Adam and Eve–who btw, were thrown out of Eden due to SIN) have fallen into sin, everyone is out to tear then limb from limb to get their drops of blood. Instead of ranting and ripping this family FURTHER apart, why don’t you realze that they need prayer more now than ever? NO ONE is impervious to sin–not the person who vacuums the church carpeting all the way up to Pastors. You all need to look within your hearts and pray for those who’ve sinned…EVEN the Schaaps. You don’t need to hang these people out to dry, God will judge them as well as the REST OF US in due time. Let God do His job and just pray for them!

        5. Davis seems to get it.

          So, when the fire is done burning all this chaff, and there’s nothing left in Heaven but The Saved and those who helped to enlarge Heaven, I wonder what the final tally will be next to each name.

          Jack Schaap
          Souls that he helped get saved: 10,000
          Souls that he might have helped get saved had he not sinned: Unsure

          Souls that he helped get saved: ?
          Souls that he might have helped get saved had he not sinned: Unsure

          Souls that he helped get saved: ?
          Souls that he might have helped get saved had he not sinned: Unsure

          Big Gary
          Souls that he helped get saved: ?
          Souls that he might have helped get saved had he not sinned: Unsure

          Souls that he helped get saved: ?
          Souls that he might have helped get saved had he not sinned: Unsure

          Souls that he helped get saved: ?
          Souls that he might have helped get saved had he not sinned: Unsure

          Souls that he helped get saved: ?
          Souls that he might have helped get saved had he not sinned: Unsure

          So, what are you doing next Thursday or Saturday?

        6. Jack Schaap
          Souls that he helped get saved: 0
          Souls that he might have helped get saved had he not sinned: 0

          There I fixed that for you.

        7. @Scorpio. My apologies in my haphazard choice of examples for excluding you in this Hall of Flame.

          Had my list been exhaustive, I would have been spending WAAAY too much time remembering or looking up names; like making a list. I didn’t want to scare anyone. No stalking from this corner of the room.

          My long brunch break is over, so I must bail out of the battle for now.

    5. Honey this is nor rebellion…they are now acting normal…just left a IFB church in Fayetteville, NC where the pastors son contacted prostitutes…had sex while married with one of the deacons daughters not once but three times…know what happened? About 100 members left because he would not do anything about it except hide him under mama’s skirt tail until the dust settles. Found out the pastor had this child out of wed-lock…he was still married to first wife when his little whore hopping son was born. I will never set foot in another IFB church as long as I live…I know all are not like this, but this pastor was a Jack Schaap wann-a-be!

      1. Ah, but Bev… women showing little glimpses of toes is so much more sinful than sexually abusing a minor, or teaching heresy! Yeah, and I play for the NBA.


        Talk about screwed-up priorities.

        (Welcome to SFL and to freedom!)

    6. “When the general is absent, the foot soldiers lose their discipline.”
      hahahah I havent heard the word “foot-soldiers” in this fundy context since Greg Mutche called BJU “foot-soldiers” for textual criticism at PCC! Ironically I know that he now is a member of a “fundy-lite” church that is not KJV-only and I have personally heard the pastor say that he is not KJV-only from the pulpit.

      Davis, if you are not a poe, please consider that you may be incorrect on some of the positions and beliefs that you are demonstrably dogmatic.

    7. Davis: you’ve called people out on this subject as a “fool”. Let me return the favor and call you numb nuts…LISTEN If a General is killed or MIA in combat and the “Foot soldiers” start to lose their discipline and begin to rebellion, it is the General’s FAULT…The General is responsible, through his commanders and their senior NCO’s to install and insure DISCIPLINE and DEDICATION to duty in the foot soldiers and it they, “the troops”, fall apart and rebel, go awol and desert it is the GENERAL WHO SCREWED UP because he did not LEAD BY EXAMPLE. Also, as far as your rants against the women in this monster’s family, Check out, in the 1611 AV King James Bible, the Story of David being confronted by the Prophet Nathan “2nd Samuel 12: 1-13…Notice how Nathan severely rebuked Bathseba for 1) Being NAKED in public and Tempeting the “Mog” 2) Not fighting back when David’s messengers came to “take her” to the palace, 4)Not pleading and begging David to not do this evil thing, 5)Not repenting of her sin of Adultery…Oh, wait I got that all wrong: Nathan NEVER SAID A WORD TO OR ABOUT BATHSEBA, in any negative, judgmental way in his confrontation with David. In fact what he says about HER is rather tender and precious “one little ewe lamb”, that was “brought up and nourished”. David was the General, the King, and Nathan confronted HIM about HIS SIN….and it was because of DAVID that his house was troubled with Rape, Incest, Rebellion,Betrayl and Murder and a “Sword that will not depart”…Spin that one, numb nuts

    8. In the literary basis for the arguments against legalism, I have never seen the issue of gaining Heaven, lumped in with opinion and individual sins. Jesus either paid for all of someone’s sins, or He didn’t.

      So, I don’t know how to respond to this type of attack on comparatively petty stuff.

      Every time I see something in public print that further broadcasts the faults of Christians, I want to fight against that publicity of fault, which I am doing here.

      The deed was done. He was caught. Devastation to follow, film at 11.

      There, we’re done with that one. Move on.

      Personally, I wouldn’t take the time to defend about the whole open toed issue. I still don’t get it. Not sure what motivated that sermon or that point in that sermon, or that off-hand comment, claim, demonstrative exclamation; whatever. But, I don’t have to. That was a locally preached sermon. My church is over 2,000 miles away. The folks that I deal with don’t know anything about it. As a matter of fact, there’s a whole lot a folks near our beached areas here that wear sandles than in Chicago or Hammond. I think it’s a serious attempt at distraction.

      How many days last month did YOU *(anyone reading this) set aside time to knock on doors in your town to invite someone to church and look for an opportunity to present the Gospel. To me THAT’S the main thing.

  4. “When the general is absent, the foot soldiers lose their discipline. So with the leader out of picture, why should anyone be surprised when the Schaap family starts to show signs of rebellion?”

    Is this a joke? No really, are you kidding or do you actually believe what you just typed?

    1. This creep also showed up at Chuckles Travels saying pretty much the same thing. Consider his misogynist drivel posts which wind up proving the things we have said about fundamentalism as a badge of honor.

      And Davis, enjoy being Exhibit A! Thank you SO much for proving we were right to leave, and for proving how morally bankrupt Fundamentalism really is. You’re doing the lord’s work, to be sure, but it isn’t the Lord Jesus Christ you’re working for! More like the dark lord…

  5. The standards… burdens… same thing… being put on women are only getting worse. I don’t remember much of this going around back in the 80s. Maybe a handful of people were saying it, but most of Fundyland had not yet gone over this far. Even since the mid-90s when I finally got out for good, things have gotten weirder. Things are being preached against now that nobody would have even thought of in 1995. The isolation, the paranoia, the misogyny, it’s all adding up and the women are paying the price for it. It wouldn’t surprise me if the incidences of sexual abuse are also going up as the hammers come down.

    1. It’s so tempting for me to go into an IFB church today wearing clothing that perfectly fit the modesty standards preached about in the 1980s. Heck, much of what I wear still fits those standards except the jeans (but the fashion sense is updated, don’t worry). If I wore what I was taught was appropriate back in the day into an IFB church now? How long before I’d be asked to leave? My guess is 45 seconds, but then I may be too generous.

      1. LMcC,

        Anyone in any IFB church that would ask you to leave because of your attire has not been properly trained in discipleship or diplomacy.

        I have been involved in an IFB church since 1978, and the vitriolic words and vicious verbiage on this site are so unbiblical. I agree that the nonsense that some IFB Christians do and/or put up with is sinful, egregious, damnable and an host of similar adjectives describing the anti-biblical, heinous crimes apparently visible in the movement, BUT can we lift up Jesus Christ and worship Him? Let the convicted criminals go to jail where our God-given laws say they should go be they Baptist or otherwise. Preach the whole counsel of God, and let the Spirit of God work in the church.

        Not all IFB churches have licentious pastors, prurient-minded deacons, and weird, volunteer member-workers. Many of the remarks on this site leveled at IFB churches and their adherents stereotype them ALL as incompetent idiots. Really?

        Certainly there are those who dole out ammunition in ample amounts to their enemies as have many IFB pastors and leaders, and have done great despite to the cause of Christ. I’m sorry that such is the case. What is is. It is too unfortunate that in the minds of so many IFB leaders “independent” means independent of Biblical accountability and responsibility, but not all IFB leaders fall to that mindset.

        I’m not for hiding sin, and I am for keeping watch for unbiblical behavior. As an IFB, I do not experience the issues written on this site. I sincerely love the Lord, am married to the only wife I’ve had who is the mother of all of our children, serve the Lord in one of the ministries of our church with my family. (I know – good for me. ad infinitum. I’m just trying to make a point)

        LMcC, did you really mean this statement, “…keep being that awful reminder why the rest of us are so grateful we found freedom in Jesus Christ.” Maybe you should be an exemplary Christian and pray that Davis sees the light and escapes the position of “awful reminder” to those of you who know better. Your freedom in Christ affords you the privilege to pray for Davis, and maybe you do, but why would you wish him to stay in his darkness and ignorance?

        Just a few thoughts, LMcC. Please take it with a Christian Spirit.

        1. Thank you, Baptist. Your calm gestures towards true Freedom, Liberty and Peace found in Jesus might go unnoticed in this environment. But I certainly appreciate it.

          A heart “hey-men!”

  6. For all the times Dr. Schaap claimed he’d knock someone’s teeth out all over the floor for the many ways they would offend him; looking at that earlier mug shot, I bet he decsends on that federal prision like a Caped-Superhero with Fists of Fury!

    1. I know.
      Based on all his boasts about how tough he is and how righteous he is, it shouldn’t be long at all until Schaap has everyone in that penitentiary whipped into shape, right?

  7. Yo Davis! Why do you keep calling him “Pastor Schaap”? He’s not a pastor any more. He’s unemployed and in jail.

    1. And according to the bible, an elder (pastor) is to be above reproach. Which Schaap is not. He is biblically excluded from the position and title of pastor.

    2. Why do you call yourself Elijah? You are not a prophet of the Lord but rather are a foolish, disrespectful child, probably a homosexual, atheist or prideful sinning rebel.

      1. This atheist thinks you are so Poe-tastic as to be hilarious. When is the joke going to be over? You can’t be real. Do you attend Landover baptist, by any chance?

  8. Megan –

    You don’t get to decide what God believes. He has told us in His Word exactly what He believes. Women are not to dress immodestly and are not to act in a manner that will cause Christian men to stumble. 1 Timothy 2:9; Romans 14:21.

    Woman, read your KJV Bible and fill your empty head.

    But you know, even if those Bible verses were never written these women with their shoes would still be in rebellion. Do you know why? I’m sure you don’t and you lack a Bible-believing husband to teach you, so I will tell you. It is because God has place Pastor Schaap at the HEAD of his house. He is the one who decides what dress is appropriate and what is not. Even if the Bible verses didn’t exist, Schaap would still have the authority as head of his house to set standards of dress and modesty and he is within his rights to prayerfully prohibit these flaunting shoes. These women rebels not only against very clear Bible verses but against the authority of their house as well. This is very much the rebellious spirit of Eve and if it is not tamed, it always leads to pain and suffering and punishment.

    1. Davis, I’m going to guess that you believe you are a very good Fundamentalist. Maybe even a model one at that.

      That said, why are you so unlike the Jesus Christ of the Scriptures? You are nothing but hate-filled toward anyone who does not have a Y-chromosome, yet Jesus was anything but that. You assume the worst about people, which is pretty much against 1 Corinthians 13 in the KJV (no, we’re not all anti-KJV around here. We’re just against hate and dishonesty hiding behind the KJV.)

      You condemn Cindy so hard, yet you have no harsh words at all for Schaap’s sin. And don’t say he repented. I’ve been in your precious Fundamentalist churches, and I know that a Fundamentalist apology means absolutely nothing until the apologizer’s actions back it up. If anything, Fundamentalists use apologies as an excuse to keep mistreating people and blaming their victims for an alleged lack of forgiveness. Cindy’s shoes are not going to lead to a bit of the pain and suffering you suggest. What her husband did, OTOH, has hurt Cindy, his family, and that dear young victim for whom you have had no kind or encouraging words.

      Thank you again so much for exposing what a hateful fraud Fundamentalism really is. I really do appreciate it because you are a reminder of how dark and Christless that world is, even as it claims doctrinal purity and a special relationship with a Christ who appears to have nothing at all in common with the Christ of the Holy Scriptures. I pray someday you will come out of it and know the true Light; but until then, keep being that awful reminder why the rest of us are so grateful we found freedom in Jesus Christ. Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do and all that…

    2. “You don’t get to decide what God believes.”

      Davis, this is a fundamental flaw in your thinking. First, God doesn’t “believe” anything. He knows everything, and created all things. Sure, there is the law, but the law was given so that we would know we needed Christ and his gift of salvation.

      Davis, I feel bad for you. Not in a pity sort of way, but I feel bad that you live your life in such a way that everything is about standards. I did that for a long time, and sure, there are times when standards are very appropriate, but to really believe that wearing open-toe shoes is a sin is pretty silly. It’s this type of legalism that keeps women “in their place”. I imagine you whole-heartedly believe a woman, no matter how insane her husband’s command, should follow it since you’ve stated it’s well within the husband’s “rights” to command practically anything.

      Anyway, thanks for the discussion – it was truly entertaining.

    3. Davis, I almost hate to reply to someone I suspect is actually joking, but assuming you’re serious, consider a couple of things. First, I Tim 2:9 (in context with the rest of the passage about the place of women in church)speaks more of their appearance in who they are trying to identify with rather than on-lookers stumbling. Regarding the Romans 14 passage and seeking the good of your brother, you deal with what you are aware of- and if toes grieve your brother, your probably going to have to cover from head to toe in a blanket, because I don’t see how an ankle, or wrist, or fingers are any different. Eventually your policies have to be reasonable. Modesty should come into play in relation to our differences- cleavage, certain body development that is unique to the genders, unique to intimacy, etc. For crying out loud- WE ALL HAVE TOES. Secondly, Schaap is no longer head of his children’s homes, or his niece’s, and if you believe he is, you are not studying the dynamic of the grown, autonomous children placing themselves and their families under God’s authority.
      Also, the man is the head of his home as far as being the one directly answerable to God for his family Eph 5:31. Women still answer to God on an individual basis, and all christians in day to day relations are to submit to each other Eph 5:21.

    4. Davis,
      When you go this long without sex, the pressure builds and crystals begin to form in your brain like stalactites. They short circuit your synapses and things like this come flying out of your mouth. You need to go take care of business. Stat.

      1. @ AuntieChrist
        I appreciate you were trying to be humorous, but please now, let’s not go there. There’s nothing wrong with being celibate in adulthood.

        There are actually a lot of problems in American Christianity precisely because the church does not uphold, encourage, or support celibates or celibacy itself once a Christian person is over the age of 30 and hasn’t married yet.

        There is far too much emphasis on marriage and parenting in fundamentalism, Southern Baptist Churches, and evangelicalism, and other branches of American Christianity.

        Christian kids are told if they remain virgins that God will bless them with a great Christian spouse (and great sex).

        So what happens when you are a Christian and remain a virgin, and you arrive in your late 30s, then your 40s, and your spouse never arrived? The church has nothing to say to you.

        Or, on rare instances pastors broach the topic, they blame you for your situation, or mock and ridicule you.

        Sometimes, older male Christian celibates (who are normal and hetero sexual) get insulted by some preachers who bellow that any male who is still unmarried by the time he’s late 20s “must be a homosexual.”

        While Christian kids are encouraged to remain “pure” until marriage, those of us Christians (such as me) who never have sex (because we’ve not married), even into our 40s and later, get no support from most of the Christian community.

        We at times get mocked or insulted in Christian magazines and blogs about marriage and dating, especially when preachers lament and get upset that marriage is so delayed today (people are getting married at later ages).

        If the church really supported singleness and sexual purity and celibacy and taught that self control was possible, there might not be so many cases of sexual sin and the like.

        1. Finally, someone who dares remind us that there are celibate singles out there quietly living their Christian lives being ignored by the very ones harping on purity. I’m so fed up with the Fundy crap I was force fed my whole childhood and young adult life. The importance of my actual relationship with Christ was rarely addressed due to all the time spent shoving legalistic garbage down my throat. It was an eye opener to find more acceptance in Christian denominations decried by the “only ones who are right” fundamentalists.

    5. @ DAvis who said, “Women are not to dress immodestly and are not to act in a manner that will cause Christian men to stumble.”

      Actually, no. The Bible teaches personal responsibility. You are responsible for your thoughts and actions, not women or how they dress.

      No one can agree on what constitutes “immodest” dress. There is nothing “immodest” about open toe shoes, only a few kooks with hang ups against women who believe there is.

      1. Thank you again for another truthful statement. The other crap that used to trouble me when I was growing up was the double standard regarding men and women. Whenever a rape was reported in the news, my own father’s first comment/question was “how was she dressed?” It would make me so mad, didn’t do much to endear me to my dad. I mourn the relationship with him that did not exist because of such a demeaning attitude. My Jr High Sunday School teacher told us girls that if anything wrong happened between any of us and a boy, “the blame lies at her feet”. I can’t believe I listened to that crap, I never really believed it. Such BS cost me a lot emotionally and in my difficulty forming relationships. I’m glad I have removed myself far from it.

    6. I just have to go through this string and place a few Amens to Davis.

      Davis, you are not the only one who seems like you’re pulling at teeth here.

      I find it ironic that the behaviour to which they enjoy harping is their main thing.

      A hint to you, Davis. Their intent is to mark you instead of to include you. They will laugh and deride at your simplest mistakes while ignoring the meat of any honest argument and pretends to not get the really big things.

      They will also pretend that you are claiming perfection so that they can ignore those really big things like soul winning. Notice the reply I got when I mentioned something conciliatory about Bro Schaap. The really killer reply from someone was, “Jack Schaap never saved anyone, Jesus saves.” as if I had claimed that Schaap saves instead of Jesus.

      Isn’t this fun? 😀

  9. I think we should take the counsel of Proverbs 26:4 when it comes to answering any of Davis’s comments. Proverbs 27:22 may also apply. And Proverbs 12:15.

  10. The most dangerous (and widely applied) part of his rant on the shoes is right at the end, “Yes maam, whatever pastor would like!”

  11. If open-toed shoes cause this guy to drag out his fainting couch and clutching pearls, I can only imagine the frothing rage that he goes into over sandals or *le gasp!* bare feet! Does he make his wife and kids wear their slippers to bed? 🙄

  12. That audio is nuts. Remember the late comedian Sam Kinison? He was a preacher at one point. When Jack Schaap goes into that “no, no. no” rant, he sounds EXACTLY like him. Eerie.

  13. They both dress like old ladies, to me. Cindy used to dress really cute and sharp when she was younger. Opression does that to a woman. Poor girl. Run as fast as you can, Cindy!!!

  14. Maybe you guys need to listen to to this again he said open toe shoes on thw platform.

    1. If it’s a sin on the platform then it’s a sin everywhere else as well.
      IFB logic dictates that if it’s a sin for one, then it’s a sin for all.

  15. I grew up in FBC and rarely went back after high school. Even Jack Hyles never preached against open toe shoes! And sleeveless dresses? It would be laughable if Schaap didn’t RANT about it. Imagine telling this nonsense to the Jews of antiquity living in the desert that is was wrong to wear sandals. LOL!! This is legalism gone amok. FBC treats its members as if they were students in their schools. Because of extreme positions like this, it is an embarrassment to be known as a Baptist. Cringe.

  16. I’ve been to Hyles, and I don’t recall a rule against open-toed shoes. (I visited about a week before the incident, and saw many wearing them for the outside activities on one of the conferences). If there is, it only applies during the church services and college itself, not outside of it.

  17. Wow. Y’all are so weird.
    I know these people; have even done some work for Mrs. Schaap. Attended the church before moving away due to career requirements.
    The Schaaps are good people. Jack Schaap apparently lived a double life for a while and got caught. Nobody really close to him (wife) knew what was going on until at the very end. What he did was very, very wrong; more than just sin. Criminal and even predatory; a young lady involved.
    By pop culture standards, since he got caught doing the same stuff that many Democrat officials and a couple of Republicans did, many without getting prosecuted or even losing their jobs, he deserves at least what they got, which is often a slap on the wrist. But, IF Baptists, or “Fundys” as I read here, have much older and higher standards as they profess to try to follow the Bible. That’s why he got the book thrown at him. He wasn’t just a failed Christian (aren’t we all), but a trusted mentor and defender of young people and families. He took advantage and he should pay, whatever the penalty.
    But Cindy Schaap deserves our prayers and love. So do their children and the good folks at FBC Hammond. Shame on you people, and you all deserve whatever happens to you for dishing out hate and lies.
    The good people at the FBC of Hammond are responsible for millions entering into Heaven. What have you done for The Savior?

    1. @StuMarksez….honey, you’ve been drink’in the Kool-aide for way, too long!

      “he deserves at least what they got,which is often a slap on the wrist.” ….you say this after saying “it was more than just sin.” ….THIS is the same mind-set that FBH and all her sister-clone churches have towards child-molesting, false teaching preachers.

      He not only broke the law of the land, but God’s law. I don’t care who’s son-in-law he is, or what “great” church(as the late Dr. Hyles liked to say of FBCH) he comes from….Prv.21:11a – When the scorner is punished, the simple is made wise. Yep, that’s pretty much “older and higher standard”, but it’s not because of our’s that he got the “book” thrown at him.

      As for the “good people” of FBCH responsible for “millions (?) entering into Heaven”, is the Hyles/Schaap twisted version of the Gospel. ALL they are responsible for is planting the seed, God is responsible for the rest.

      Thanks for showing YOUR Christian love and compassion by wishing that “you all deserve whatever happens to you” because of our “hate and lies”….Sorry, but the truth has been revealed for all to see. We don’t have to make anything up.

      You’re right on one point, prayers should be offered for him, his family and FBCH. True repentance of personal sin, sin against the brethren, repentance of the sin of allowing false preaching to exist in their church, true repentance to the Glory of God.

      1. We’re obviously not on the same page or you didn’t read my entire post. When I notice a relevant rant from you again, I’ll try to reply.

    2. “Shame on you people, and you all deserve whatever happens to you for dishing out hate and lies.”

      Yay! Thanks Stu. This brought back a lot of memories of getting yelled at while sitting in the pew. All I need now is an altar and 58 verses of Just As I Am.

    3. Stu said, “Shame on you people, and you all deserve whatever happens to you for dishing out hate and lies.”

      I’ve not seen anyone here pick on her. They’re making fun of a church culture that says a woman wearing open toe shoes is sinful. Some are also mentioning that her spouse is a hypocrite.

      Based on the little I know about her, I feel sorry for her. I’d not want to be married to a pervy guy who has extra marital sex with teenagers.

  18. wow, talk about out of context. i went to FBCH & HAC in recent years. i was allowed to wear open toed shoes! the excerp here is saying nothing about condeming any one standard or another -but yet not being a PUNK and rebelling about when a higher standard is required. and this has all of your panties in a wad??? c’mon! i can only hope my daughter learns to take the high road when the option is given as opposed to the low road & abides by a higher standard should she find herself confused or unsure of the validity of a lower standard. sheesh!

    1. Many posters on this site are seeking opportunities to tear down ministries that are still winning souls and trying their best. The term “kicking while he’s down” comes to mind. If this is a site operated by Christians for Christians, I just don’t see it. Majoring in the minors here. Some day, you will be living next door to the same folks you are denigrating. Heaven is a wonderful place. Let’s expereince some little bit of our true citizenship before we get there, why not? 🙂

      1. If you think we’re “kicking while he’s down,” check out what we said about Schaap while he was riding high. No real difference.

        1. Beyond picking on the man running a soul winning ministry, (scary enough [God’s Anointed]) when he got caught and all of the news of summery trial and prison comes down, and all the publicity, there just isn’t anything left to say on those points.

          Why there are even negative posts about the issue from other Christians is really weird. Where’s the uplifting spirit? Where’s the posts about how the church and family are hurting and how we can pray for them if nothing else? If this were some pop-culture, hate-filled site run by Christian drop-outs, I could understand the content. But if this is a site built by and for Christians, it just is confusing.

        2. And there wasn’t a summery trial (one in shorts and flip-flops?), nor even a summary trial. He pleaded guilty; therefore, no trial.

      2. I clearly remember the Hyles crowd railing against open-toed shoes on women. This was a regular theme with them. When my little sister (who is so much holier than I am) mocked me for saying that such ridiculous things had been taught, I turned to our mom, who was a friend and coworker of Marlene Evans (we also hosted Jack Hyles in our hotel and home, free of charge, for a week). Mom confirmed what I was saying. My sister was incredulous.

        The fact that they have now abandoned that position does not mean that they didn’t scream and yell from the pulpit about it, or that they weren’t completely extrabiblical in their stance and unbiblical in their approach.

        I’m sure that those temper tantrums from the pulpit were EXTREMELY effective at pointing lost souls toward the Savior. Never criticize anyone, no matter how bad their behavior, because it might prevent God from saving someone. God is so weak and helpless about that sort of thing, don’t you know.

        This is not about “higher” or “lower” standards. One is neither higher nor lower than the other, unles you are a Pharisee. This is about one perverted “man of god” trying to force his own personal hang-ups on everyone else, in the name of God, while engaging in all manner of perversity and teaching his son to do even worse. The fact that they claim to be trying to win souls does not cover for any of this.

        Maybe we will all be in heaven. I suppose it is possible that such degenerates who claim the name of Christ while living like the devil could truly be covered by the blood of Christ. But let’s not pretend that the nastiness didn’t happen, or that these “men” should be worshipped the way they were (and continue to be) worshipped, mkay?

        Majoring on minors? Oh my goodness! NOBODY does that better than the IFB. They have completely abandoned the fundamentals of the faith in favor of endless arguments about stupid stuff. We call them out for it, and we get told WE are majoring on minors?

        Ai caramba.

        1. Well, 355 words on minors. Thanks for that little gem.
          Yep, I still maintain that’s all about soul winning, others and offering love to cover the sins and weights while working to restore.

          You don’t have to agree with me, that’s OK.

          The open toed shoes thing is a new argument to this 55 year old. This site is the first place I was exposed to that. But this stuff goes on, I know. I just don’t think that it’s that big of a deal. I discount it to MAN’s opinion, and I move on.

          If that was “preached”, then as a Christian, I am embarrassed about it and pray for folks who are affected by such stuff, like yourself.

          My 1st year at Hyles-Anderson College I made friends with a young man that claimed that at one time there was preaching against patent leather shoes. I guess that a guy could see up skirts with shoes like that. As I was asking an older gentleman about that, he said that in the 40’s and 50’s, the public schools had banned those shoes for just that reason. Shocker.

          So, hearing about open toed shoes on ladies took on a different color in light of the shiny shoes thing. These stories all have their sources based somewhere in reality I guess.

          But, more importantly, my inclusion about The Main thing, soul winning, was not based on FBC’s claims that they are still winning souls. This is evidentiary info. When hundreds of folks go out on a regular basis, and present the gospel to people, and offer a chance to “draw the net” for Jesus, I call that “still engaged in soul winning”.

          You can bluster on the minors all you want to justify “calling them on it”, but nothing compares to soul winning. Enlarging Heaven, doing what we all should be doing.

          Can people and institutions win souls while still being sinners? I k now for a fact that they can. My own life is a perfect example.

          The wife-stealer/murderer David was “…a man after God’s own heart.” Is Bro Schaap David? Hardly. But go ahead and draw your conclusion anyway.

          I wonder when was the last time anyone here went out soul winning. Not an accusation (well, it is a little [smuggly]), I am asking a sincere question. Hopefully we are engaged in more religious stuff than basking in someone’s failures here.

          2 Samuel 19:21 and 2 Samuel 1:16 are two verses that come to mind regarding God’s anointed. I just fear to go there. Yes, true fear. Not worth it.

  19. Am I sincere or am I parodying?

    No, I am sincere. Thanks for the compliment, though.

    I find it rather unfortunate that you would not quickly recognize someone who takes The Main Thing seriously.

    Continuing rants that serve no Heavenly purpose, but hurt others under the label of “Calling out sin” is not only disingenuous, but is self destructive as well.

    This ongoing practice to such a new low that it has its own blog says way more about the down kickers than their expressed content.

    I expect that some here probably even cast votes FOR the Muslim In Chief in the last election cycle.

    1. Stu – No way are you real. Mulsim in Chief? That is serious Poe material.

      If by chance you are not a Poe, another serious question for you…..Shouldn’t you be out “winning souls” instead of wasting time on the internet with us heathen-liberal-compromisers?

        1. Maybe you should look up what it means to ask if someone is a Poe. I answered your question very succinctly I thought.

          Maybe in meeting the mentality of the conversation with a like response I should have just said, “no.”

        2. Stu – Mu question is not stupid. If you are all about “winning souls” why are you wasting time here? You should be out street preaching at cars or leaving tracts on a urinal. Because that is what the Bible commands right? Or isn’t Tuesday “soul-winning” day in your neck of fundytown?

        3. I would’ve gone with “no”. Name calling is never a good idea, and reflects very poorly on the person doing the name calling (sadly including the part where I returned volley).

    2. You’ve gone far afield & astray of the main thing if you call yourself a Christian in any meaningful sense.

        1. So far, every indication we have is that you are all about making internet comments to “correct” people you don’t like. There’s no definition of Christianity that fits with that practice. Also you’ll find 0 support in Scriptures for your theory of “soulwinning” or “helping someone to get saved”. Paul is very specific Grace does not need help, it’s not Grace when you add Jack Schaap’s help.

        2. Rob – I thought the main thing was the main thing. And that is the only thing. Amen?

        3. I’ve definitely always been taught that the Main Thing (TM) should always be kept as the Main Thing (TM), however I think brother Stu has gotten a bit out of kilter on what the Main Thing (TM) is!

        4. Sorry Rob. You lost me at “…adding Jack Schaap’s help.”

          Soul winning does not add to salvation. It is merely presenting the gospel. You know, the whole, “Go ye therefore…” thing. Do you not get that? Or have you forgotten.

          I merely point. Jesus does the saving. All to Him!

          Do you really not get this stuff, Don?

        5. RobM
          “So far, every indication we have is that you are all about making internet comments to “correct” people you don’t like.”
          So, from all indications Rob, every comment you have made to me is about… what, then?
          So silly.
          Once again, explaining the explanation. This is getting so shallow, Rob.
          Where do you get “people I don’t like?” How about staying on topic here. Everyone I replied to was due to their hateful post, which I explained.
          Did you miss all that stuff below the name on the replies? Do you not read as well as write, Rob?
          Can you not deal with my questions? Can you not find anything positive to say about Jack Schaap? Can you not forget about your liberal bussies here just for 30 seconds to try to be positive about the meat of the content?
          OK, now back to you. Find something petty. Your turn.

  20. RobM

    “So far, every indication we have is that you are all about making internet comments to “correct” people you don’t like.”

    So, from all indications Rob, every comment you have made to me is about… what, then?

    So silly.

    Once again, explaining the explanation. This is getting so shallow, Rob.

    Where do you get “people I don’t like?” How about staying on topic here. Everyone I replied to was due to their hateful post, which I explained.

    Did you miss all that stuff below the name on the replies? Do you not read as well as write, Rob?

    Can you not deal with my questions? Can you not find anything positive to say about Jack Schaap? Can you not forget about your liberal bussies here just for 30 seconds to try to be positive about the meat of the content?

    OK, now back to you. Find something petty. Your turn.

    1. We have no business saying anything good about a man who is an apostate and has destroyed the faith of the innocent. The most we can do is expel him from the fellowship of Christianity and pray for him to repent of his sin and be saved.

      1. Roh-oh, Bassenco. You are getting mighty close to offering up kindness here with, “…and pray for him to repent of his sin and be saved..”

        Whew! You’re really close on this one. The jury may have to weigh in when they have time from all their other judging.

        1. The fornicating young man at Corinth and the fallen elder Diotrephes were both condemned by the Church for their gross sins. Paul rebuked Peter in public for his dissimulation. Paul ordered Timothy to rebuke fallen elders before the entire church. That is what the Bible tells us to do. So put aside your idolatry and obey Scripture. You would do more good for Schaap by rebuking and expelling him in the hopes that he will make a true conversion to Christ, than by play acting that his soul is in no danger under the disguise of “not judging.” This is a man who told men to slap their grandmothers for dissenting from them, a lewd man who turned communion into something that gratified his proud and lustful thoughts, a man who dared to say that Christ failed in His mission. There is nothing questionable here. Schaap heard the truth, learned the truth, took on church office, and then twisted the truth. The evidence of his fall is his gross sexual sin.

  21. So, the main thing being enlarging Heaven;

    Is anyone here for winning others to Christ? Can’t there be a moment of time taken from down kicking to uplift Jesus and The Cause here?

    Come on, I dare you to crumble into kindness in front of your adoring hords, here.

    1. I’ve heard his “Plan of Salvation” and the only thing he enlarged was, Hell!

    2. So, the main thing being enlarging Heaven;

      Really? Where do you find this commission to enlarge heaven?

      We are commissioned to be witnesses and preach the gospel to everyone, making disciples as we go… but nowhere are we commissioned to “enlarge heaven.”

      “Surprise Jesus, look what I have for you. You’re gonna have to build on to your Father’s mansion to make room for all the souls we’re saving for you! I guess you’ve already had to create whole sub divisions for all that Jack Hyles, Jack Schaap, and those Sword of the Lord folks have brought into the kingdom.” Doesn’t it just make you so proud!?

    3. You’ve made your own agenda up of “enlarging heaven” and assumed it was the Main Thing (TM) even though there’s no Biblical mandate for it. Maybe you should start with a much more reasonable calling that is in scripture: wise stewardship and/or approved workman that is studied up and would know better than to falsely assert “Main Thing (TM)” status to vocations that aren’t even real or in scripture.

      1. “You’ve made your own agenda up”

        He’s made his own agenda up… period! 😆

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