Changing Things (So That Things Stay The Same)

Through the last few years, SFL has generally taken a light-hearted approach to the issues surrounding fundamentalism and hopefully we’ll get back to that satiric dialog and gentle mockery within a few days. However, as the saga continues to unfold at FBC Hammond it continues to demonstrate and validate things that have been discussed on this site and others in a very real way.

For starters, David Gibbs and the CLA immediately became involved giving the lie to the idea that the CLA’s main focus is on being “legal missionaries” to help churches who are being oppressed by the forces of liberalism. Although there is demonstrably no persecution of the church here (because the harm was done by the church itself) yet the CLA still shows up to provide legal counsel. Part of this counsel has reportedly been to have the church staff start calling up people who had previously made allegations against Schaap in hopes that showing them concern now will keep them from suing the church. There is no doubt in my mind that the CLA continues to serve as the “fixers” of fundamentalism.

Part of this role as “fixers” at Hammond now involves conducting an internal investigation with all the unbridled energy of men building their own gallows. As the video above demonstrates, the internal investigation itself is more than a little troubling since church members are being told to contact in-house counsel with their concerns and information instead of being told to take that information directly to the police. In some other place with some other people that might not seem to ominous but with a group of people who from the outset have been less than truthful about this situation it smacks of trying to control what facts get out and who is told what. If you’re a member of FBC Hammond or a student at Hyles Anderson University, I’d strongly advise you to talk to the police first and talk to David Gibbs as little as humanly possible.

Although they are claiming to make “transparency” their watchword right now, truth certainly does not seem to be of much concern to the folks at FBC Hammond. First the church was told by Eddy Lapina that Schaap was sick and on medical leave. He apparently said this from the pulpit with a straight face even while he must have known by that point what the real reason for Schaap’s sudden departure was. Once the story broke, however, what does the church do but put the man who just lied to them all in place as interim pastor. Of course they did. Why wouldn’t they? If history is any judge then being able to lie well is practically in the job description.

I’m sure there’s much more to follow on this story as it unfolds and I don’t intend to make this venue a place to report on every gory detail (that’s what Facebook is for!) but it is rather validating to see the corruption of Hyles writ large upon this place through these events. It’s validating, and more than a little sad.

174 thoughts on “Changing Things (So That Things Stay The Same)”

  1. Darrell, at what point in the video do they began to address Schaap’s removal and reasons why? For those of us who prefer to never hear Gibbs speak again.

    1. Oh, I’m not sure of the exact timestamp and I don’t have access to play the video right now. What brave soul will volunteer to tell us? Will anybody stand in the gap??

      1. Bless you PP.

        And can I just say that–coming in on the end of the prayer–OY. It’s one of those “preaching prayers,” where the speaker obviously isn’t talking to God. He’s talking to the audience.

        1. Amen! I’ve been saying this for years. They are not talking to God, they are talking to the audience. Applies to most public prayers.

  2. So I’m making myself listen to this, the first fundie sermon I’ve heard in many many years, and I am so amazingly struck by the patronizing tone (“say that word with me”, “hold your hand up if…”), the cliche phrases and stories (“how many of you know that teenagers are deaf, because they hear what they want to hear…”, and now I’m even noticing pseudo-intellectualism (“write these notes down.”) I’m just aghast at it all, most of all the situation of the victims of this particular church.

    1. Gibbs sounded like he was trying to hypnotize the people with his voice. That creepy fundy attempt at humor all through it, don’t miss that a bit. Raise your hand and come down to the alter while the instrument plays. Shiivers, yuck. Don’ t worry folks we will begin the search for the next mog to take this place over and lead us like we ought to be led… so it can all happen all over again… just looking at scaap always gave me the creeps like he was a perv. :evil:

  3. There is so much to say about what was said, so much. I don’t know where to start, so I guess I won’t. :-) lets just say that I’m not impressed.

  4. Listened from 42 on. What a load of crap. First, to say that the people of FBCH a week ago couldn’t imagine something like this would happen. C’mon! Haven’t you been sitting in the pews and listening to this nut for the past 11 years. I was not the least bit surprised when I heard the news that Schaap was taking advantage of a teenager. I’ve been expecting it. All of the signs were there. Then the pious dribble about doing the right thing, that FBCH has always been a safe place for young people, full disclosure, honesty, integrity, blah, blah, blah. Give me a break. Nothing but a bunch of CYA! I don’t believe a word. Think I’ll be sick!!!

    1. That’s the first thing I thought of too. Have they been so blinded that they couldn’t imagine something like this happening? For a guy who preached so much on sex they’re so shocked at what he did? With all that happened with his father-in-law, brother-in-law, and all the others at FBC/HAC they were taken by surprise?

      Another thing I noticed was all the applause during the last 15 minutes. They applauded for nearly every one. And right at the end the speaker made note of a new pastor who can “take control of this place.” Do they really want that type of pastor again?

      I wonder what the CLA bill will end up coming to?

    2. How do they reconcile the comment about how no one could have predicted this a week ago with the fact they knew who all these former victims were and how to reach them immediately after Wed night’s sermon.

      That shows a clear lie, IMHO.

      But what else is new?

    1. I can and I can’t. As with all periods of awkwardness, you partly try to act as though everything is still going like normal. That was why the first 40 minutes feel like a “normal, nothing to see here” church service. Not sure i like it… but i can understand it.

  5. The clapping bothers me.
    The lighthearted nature of the service (other than the guy who announced for 30 seconds that Schaap was dismissed) was disconcerting.
    I have been in church discipline meetings in the past for lesser things than this and it was DEPRESSING on ALL fronts.

    Depressing.
    Depressing.
    Depressing.

    The amount of folks this will undoubtedly affect is staggering.

    1. Oh, yes, yes, yes. I prefer not to talk about things like this (the incident I’m thinking of was not a criminal incident), but in a particular case, there was no laughing, no clapping, nothing. It was a serious incident, and we treated it as such. Yes, it was good that sin was exposed. But there was a lot of sorrow that the sin had occurred in the first place.

      Now, in this instance, I can understand being somewhat happy that Schaap is out now. But this smacks more of “let’s pretend nothing bad happened” false happiness.

  6. Oh, that just made me ill. They have a wonderful opportunity to drastically change the way that things have been. But like the title said change to stay the same. I called this the day I left HAC my second year ~ didn’t even make it through the 1st semester my 2nd year. *shiver*

    Only time will tell………………

  7. how sick and twisted that these people are applauding and cheering through all of this. There was even laughter near the beginning of the video. They are so desperate to get back to “normalcy”–which for them is blindly rallying behind whatever cause is presented to them from the pulpit, as loudly and stubbornly as possible.

  8. I think someone should put a pic of David Gibbs’ face over a picture of Carol Burnett’s “Cleaning Lady” character. Sadly, his whole purpose has been to clean up the IFB Church’s sexual escapades.

    1. +10 “I’m so glad we had this time together, just to have a laugh and sing a song…seems we just get started and before we know it comes the time we need to say, so long… :roll: :roll:

  9. plus they keep referring to the situation as “this,” but as far as I can tell, they never explicitly state what Schaap was accused of. (If I’m wrong, and they actually do verbalize it at some point, someone please set me straight.) Anyone listening to the service who didn’t already know the situation would be really confused . . .
    Having listened to the video from 42:00 on, I recognize the familiar fundy habit of talking. reallllly. slooooow. to emphasize a point. Like the congregation is so thick headed that you really have to work at makeing them understand you. Reminds me of people who are trying to communicate with non-English speakers and they think if they just go louder and slower, they will be understood. so patronizing :( But then, if these parishioners have been sitting through Schaap sermons for years without raising an eyebrow, they’ve earned this kind of treatment.

    1. I agree, I said this over on the SFL FB page, but it was like they were all talking about an accident that no one had any control over. I didn’t here much reference to the actual crime to what got him fired either, which is why the huge crowd turned out that night, for an explanation! They spent so much time validating their love for Schaap and his family. commiting to pray for Schaap- not that he’d “get right w God” but that his ministry wouldn’t be tarnished!
      And the part about how ‘they’ want to make sure that there isn’t any confusion about any teachings in the church that would promote something like that, or however they worded it- uh yeah, that would be the last 11 years under this guy. There is no mention of the victim or prayers for her because Schaap has such disdain for women, he teaches that if a man lusts after a woman it’s the womans own fault.

  10. My Observations:

    1. During prayer, Gibbs sounds like a child molester trying to lure in a kid with a candy bar.

    2. In what IFB do they clap? At PCC if you clapped you were shot down by laser guns. Uptight – it’s what is right.

    3. Gibbs sounds like a child molester all the time.

    4. Gibbs talks to his audience like they are a group of mentally slow people.

    5. They have to be told NOT to preach that what happened is good? So much for common sense.

    6. “You have been loved by great pastors…” Some were loved TOO much.

  11. Here is what I DO NOT UNDERSTAND about David Gibbs. How does he manage to flit from state to state doling out legal advice without being a licensed attorney in those states? I am a recent law school graduate and (if I pass the bar) a soon-to-be attorney and this question really bothers me. It is illegal in most states to practice without being licensed in THAT STATE. There are some exceptions but I am not aware of what the one would be in which Fatty Gibbs Esq. takes refuge. Anyone know how he justifies what he does??

    1. Deacon’s Son, if Gibbs goes before a court, he has to be admitted either to that state’s bar or be associated with a local attorney in what’s called “pro hac vice” (just for this event). The local attorney basically promises to vouch for the out of state attorney and “provide oversight.” Usually this is granted.

      I *would* love to see a piece of CLA letterhead. It should say in which states Gibbs is admitted to practice law.

      I’m growing to be of the opinion that soliciting victims to come to him first rather than the police should result in complaints to the state bar(s) where he is admitted.

      1. I agree with you on the ethics violations. I get the pro hoc vice thing but I am not aware that Gibbs bothers to do that because he so rarely goes to court (unless he is trying to interfere in Terri Schiavo’s private life or something equally absurd). Instead, he comes in and provides a full package of legal advice and counsel without associating with anyone local. I know that is what he did when he came in to do damage control at my parents’ church. I am aware that is a grey area but I personally think it’s unethical.

      2. All in all, if they only changed this ONE (MAIN) thing about this whole approach – viz, “come to poppa Gibbs and our counselors, [don't go to the police]” – it would be pretty OK, in my opinion. But, since they are filtering all information before it goes to the authorities, I’m extremely uncomfortable with this.

        1. Hey, at least they offered counselors for the people, and, wait for it… at no cost!!! WTH? What church is going to charge their people for counseling they might need due to their pastor effing everything up big time? :roll: :roll: :roll:

      3. “I’m growing to be of the opinion that soliciting victims to come to him first rather than the police should result in complaints to the state bar(s) where he is admitted.” :idea:

        That would be interesting, wouldn’t it?

    2. Pro hav vice: for this turn;for this one particular occasion. For example, an out-of-state lawyer may be admitted to practice in a local jurisdiction for a particular case only.
      Ref. Black’s Law Dictionary Sixth Edition.

    1. not at FBC, that’s for sure. People who love God with all their heart are very rare and usually don’t fit in anywhere, to be honest.

    1. Um pretty much always. At least in all the situations where “internal investigation” is code for “finding sh*t out before the cops do.”

  12. 1. No prayer of repentance
    2. Very little humility
    3. No announcement of official church discipline
    4. Why the heck is a guy who is not a member, deacon, elder ect…taking the lead in dealing with this . UNBIBLICAL ALL OVER THIS THING
    5. Someone slap the idiots yelling AMEN! FREAKS OF NATURE

    1. Yes, it seems the audience is there to sit and yell “Amen” and clap. Nobody’s interested in their opinions or many, many questions that should be answered. They ARE the members of the church. Instead they’re supposed to just sit there like children and receive very little information and be told that we’ve got the next guy lined up here to take care of us.

      1. Yup, and what are the chances that that church will be getting a sermon on gossiping and backbiting soon?

  13. I love how when David is talking about the deacons and senior staff and he calls them men of god and says they have the highest integrity. I’m sure a week ago they would have said the same about Jack. The patronizing in that recording was sickening.

    1. Spot on…

      And later, if Jack Schaap tries to save his own skin by telling the investigators about all the skeletons in the closets at FBCH and HAC, some of these same men might be dealing with some legal issues of their own.

  14. IME, Internal Investigation usually means major ass coverups beginning. The try fact that they’re saying that is a biiggg red flag.
    I feel sorry for the people at that church, they have been sooooo brainwashed for so long that I doubt they’d be able to see the truth if it strolled up and kissed them on the nose.

  15. As you can see, I am slowly leaking my observations as they come back to me. The offer of counseling seemed like a completely unbelievable offer!! Really? A you g girl was molested in counseling… If this bothers you and you need counseling, come back to us and we will give it to you at no cost. REALLY?!?

  16. I am against what Jack Schaap did because it was totally against the Bible and probably the law (still waiting on that part). But I can’t understand why there are so many posts being negative towards church members just trying to do what they think is right. They are people just like anyone and a situation like this would shake someone’s faith. I hope that the church members don’t lose their faith in Christ. Jesus never sinned and HE is our example NOT a liar who misleads people. I don’t want there to be a church split at FBCH (which I’m sure some people who have commented so far would disagree with). What good would that honestly do? Everything we do is to honor God and I know for a fact that God would NOT want a Christian to condemn another Christian during a time like this! Condemn Schaap but have you honestly prayed that God would be honored through this situation? NO…because you are too happy that a jerk yes a JERK fell. I am not an IFB radical but I am a Christian and so I will pray for this church because that’s what God would want.

    1. I think it’s because the response of the congregation seems to be more concerned with keeping up appearances than grieving and repenting. This is not the time for a regular church service with clapping. This was a time for church folks to weep, to call out to God in sorrow for their blindly following a man who was hiding such perversion (and not hiding it too well, based on some of the sermons I’ve heard from him).

      Why couldn’t they be honest and say how horrified and shaken they are? Why couldn’t they open the service with prayers of repentance and cries for God to forgive Schaap and heal his victims and restore their church to true holiness?

      Why couldn’t they have modeled a prayer based on Daniel’s words in Daniel 9? As far as we know, Daniel had not strayed from God’s commands, but he humbly grouped himself in with the Israelites saying, “We have disobeyed and dishonored you.”

      I’m sure that many members are distressed, but they’re showing a face to the world that says, “The show must go on.” This seems very inappropriate to most of us. This is a time to prostrate oneself before God in abject sorrow for the evils done by the man they exalted and honored.

      Our culture has no equivalent to the Biblical sackcloth and ashes. Perhaps we should. A refusal to authentically acknowledge the deep transgression that has occurred here seems to simply verify the impression a lot of people have that FBC is arrogant and corrupt.

      1. Most of us do NOT want anyone to reject Christ over this. Most of us are heartbroken for those who are crushed and reeling in shock that someone they trusted was shown to be involved in such wickedness. We want God’s glory to be seen and Christ to be exalted, which to us means facing the truth, not glossing it over, and repenting.

        1. Amen, PW. When our church meeting was held to announce the … I don’t know what you would call it… situation with our pastor, I (and those around me) cried the whole way through it. It was not a time of levity. We were all in severe pain over it. But I will not fault anyone for their reactions. Those people have been conditioned for most of their lives, and I have had many years to be reconditioned. People are all different. I won’t judge them, because I don’t like it when they judge me.

        2. To be honest most of the posts don’t show heartbreak they show happiness. I know you’re sincere but who am I to say the people in that church are not? And who says they weren’t crying? (it was only audio) As far as the clapping I hardly doubt it was a happy thing. They were probably just trying to encourage the new pastor. It’s a horrible situation and I don’t think the people were there just so they could save face as an IFB.

        3. You’re right: I don’t know their hearts. They could be in shock. They could be in the first stage of grief: denial. They could be clinging to what’s familiar since their world is shaken. They could be so used to hiding emotion that think being stoic is right (I know I heard many sermons in my IFB church about the dangers of being emotional.)

          But I also know from an entire lifetime until the last couple years in the IFB that presenting a perfect show-window to the world is what is emphasized, often creating an atmosphere of self-righteousness and hypocrisy because people are so worried about looking good on the outside.

          I guess to clarify: I’m not criticizing the members as much as the leadership who chose the format of the service. I wish the impression left was more one of heart-felt sorrow and a desperate seeking after the Lord than “we’re fine and we’ll keep on keeping on.”

        4. I also think that you’re seeing what you describe as happiness because we all grew up in churches (even non-HAC-affiliated ones) that stressed incidentals as if they were foundational doctrines of the faith, things like hymns-only or no pants on women or no tattoos, when in reality sometimes those very people were violating the most basic commands of Scripture, things that even non-Christians know are wrong.

          David in Scripture rejoiced when those who mocked God (as Schaap has done through his behavior) were brought to justice. Yes, we weep, but we also recognize the irony of his hypocrisy and are grateful that he can no longer hide secret sins behind a facade of holiness. It’s like Rev. Dimmsdale calling on Hester Prynne to name the father of her illegitimate child when all along **SPOILER** it was he himself. She wore the scarlet letter of shame; he received the respect of the community as the pastor. When hypocrisy like that is finally exposed, onlookers have a sense of relief that may come across as joy, but it is, for most of us, joy that evil is being rebuked and stopped.

        5. Guess what? I also grew up in a an IFB church. They were against pants, sang hymns, and a lot of other things that IFB churches do. But I am not going to get bitter about the way I was raised! Getting bitter will do nothing but hurt you. If you disagree with an IFB view then LEAVE but don’t become a harsh person. And I CAN say this because I came from an IFB church but I refuse to live my life complaining about how horrible the rules were. Oh, *SPOILER* there are hypocrites in every denomination.

        6. Nathan, that is great that you are so well adjusted.

          However, please keep in mind that there are a lot of people here who carry with them some deep scars from their Christless fFB experience. A lot of abuse has been done to some SFLers (emotional and physical) in the name of fundamentalism.

          Personally, I sat under Hyles’ barbaric rantings for 20 years and lived with a family who loved it. Since leaving FBC I have found Christ (rather, Ive realized that he pursued and found me). But man, I am still a royal mess. Hyle’s sick propaganda unquestionably formed my view of Christianity, manhood, marriage, etc. And my wife can attest that I’ve got some major issues.

          Hopefully one day I can have your testimony. Until then, please pray for me and others on here who desperately need the grace of God to help us make it in this life. Please be patient with us.

      2. Comment of the month PW.

        The laughing, the AMENs, the pandering, and the epic CYA on display was truly disappointing but not surprising.

    2. We should all be angry at their apparent attempt to control and warp the official police investigation. Asking victims to speak to the church’s attorney (and not go to the police directly) is NOT in the best interest of the victims – it is only in the best interest of the church and Gibbs.

      Of course we are offended by this!

      I hope and pray the court slaps them for what I consider completely unethical behavior.

    3. Thank you, Nathan, what occurred was terrible, and all the incidents in the past are also, but why attack a whole church? I saw probably less than a dozen cases of abuse listed above. First Baptist of Hammond is a huge organization. Unfortunately, there is a lot evil in our world today-it is going to show up everywhere. Don’t group all fundamental Christians in the same group. There are a lot of us out there who try to serve God and do what is right. Thank you again Nathan for bringing up this point. My heart breaks for these people and their church. It especially hurts for all of those people who will, not get saved because of this incident.

      1. So, Linda how many would there have to be before you would stop calling them isolated incidents and started saying there’s a pattern of institutional corruption? 20? 35? 57?

        Exactly how rotten does the apple have to be before you admit that eating it probably isn’t a good idea?

      2. Oh…by saved you mean repeat the sinners prayer and get your free, no obligation lifetime pass…yes my young daughter that “saved” 3 or 4 times at a fundy church years ago and I was an idiot just like those at FBC and similar places for subjecting my family to what in reality is a cult.

  17. I can’t believe I actually made it all the way to the end. Now I need several showers. Ugh! ICK! Oh, I feel like maggots are crawling all over me… starting with my ears and moving into my brain. I don’t even know where to begin. B L E A H G H!

  18. Perhaps they should call Chuck Phelps. His church investigation went SO well for him. Made him smell like a rose. His court appearance was one for the record books in its veracity and unimpeachable character. :shock:

  19. I think this is a good place to get this off my chest. My husband is an elder in a church where, recently, the pastor went to jail. He (the pastor) did a lot of improper and illegal things at our church before he left but the jail wasn’t for that it was for something else. But after he left ALL the elders took the heat for what had happened. People accused them of knowing about it and covering it up (they didn’t.) And some of them were accused of profiting from it somehow (they weren’t.) This is a volunteer commitment and speaking for my husband and the ones I know, I have to say, it was not taken lightly. But, well, I am just saying, I loved my pastor. I was devastated when all the stuff started coming to light and very hurt to see him go in that way.
    The people at FBC are traumatized. And while I have no great love for First Baptist Church (where I spent many years being indoctrinated) I do feel pity for them because I know what the next few months will be like for them. This situation just feels so familiar to me. Jack Schaap is a horrible person. He didn’t care how many lives he wrecked just so he could get a moment of pleasure. And yet, there are people who will still “stand behind him” and “be loyal” to him and defend him to their dying day. Because that is the way the system has trained them. Because they are sheep who don’t know the REAL Shepherd. It is so sad because they are sincere and nice and good people. And they want to believe the best of people. Does this qualify as rambling yet? Sorry. Anyway… I had a point… Maybe I made it. Good luck finding it.

    1. I was just thinking the same thing. They get up there and repeatedly say how much they love Schaap yet don’t express sincere grief for the victim and her family.

      1. Don, your comment brought back a memory of a sermon by Jack Hyles in which he made the observation that Bathsheba was bathing on the rooftop within view of David’s window on purpose in order to seduce him. Of course, no proof of motive was offered, but he told it as if he knew it for a fact. And because of this David did not hold as much responsibility for the sin as she did. Wow… I am stunned at the retrieval of that memory. What a mess.

        1. That’s so wrong of him to so blatantly add to God’s Word and state for truth what God DID not include in Scripture.

  20. I’m going to assume that the counselors they are offering (free of charge) to help the abused are church members who are going to tell the victims to “forgive, forget, and move on”.

  21. 1. I notice first, the deacon starts out with the most important thing in his mind: himself. “This has been the hardest week of my life.” How sad for him. I guess it wasn’t worth mentioning it might have been hard for Mrs. Schaap, or the minor, or the church in general, or the school, or even to the precious “cause of christ” they’re always going on about? (As distinguished from His true Cause).

    2. At about 41:37 they do state “inappropriate relationship with a minor” (For those who weren’t sure if they actually say what the issue is).

    3. I think it’s Gibbs who’s speaking about 44 min in. He says that he’s known the leaders of this church for many years. They are men of integrity. A statement he no doubt would have made about Schaap 6 months ago. Then he tells us these same leaders (which would have included Schaap not long ago) are “always going to do what’s right.” This is an amazing thing to say. “Ok, we were 100%, totally, catastrophically wrong about our pastor. We told you to obey him, we acted as if he could do no wrong. Oops. But NOW we’ve got it down. NOW we’ve got the men who will “always” do what’s right. These men of integrity.” It’s the same old story–these guys are the leaders, so no matter what they tell you to do you do it and don’t question it. You can trust them…

    4. Like others, I find it disturbing they don’t bring in the police. You don’t bring in a lawyer to do your investigation unless you want to make sure you can hide whatever you can hide, and you won’t get blindsided later.

    5. That he is not serious is illustrated about 44:15, when he says “if there’s anyone else who has been offended.” Offended? In what way does he mean this? Does he mean the Biblical word “offend,” which means “to cause someone to stumble?” If so, I suppose there’s a sense in which Schaap may have done that–but it would be the least of his sins against this girl. And it would be a strange thing to admit, since it clearly implies that Schaap was the aggressor. Or does he mean it the way fundies usually mean it, like when they say: “You can’t wear those pants because it offends me.”? Basically meaning “to make someone feel bad.” If that’s the meaning it’s even worse. I can hardly think of anything that’s more ridiculously minimizing than to describe Schaap’s sin as “offending people.”

    6. They promise to quickly reveal everything they find to all relevant civil authorities. Twice. Good. That’s the proper attitude. You’ve said it publicly: we’re watching.

    7. A lot of talk about doing what’s right. I’m glad to hear it. I’m also glad to hear him urge prayer for the Schaap family, and then for Jack Schaap. He seems to have missed the victim however. Why is this? He should be confronted with this directly.

    8. Now they’re all clapping for the deacons, for “the incredibly difficult decisions they had to make.” I’m sorry, what was difficult about it? Sad, yes. Heartbreaking, maybe. Difficult? Not at all. Poor choice of wording here, perhaps. I would like to think that if I were a deacon in this situation, I would be more concerned to beg forgiveness of the people for having supported and defended such a wicked man for so long than in accepting applause for doing the least I could do in firing him.

    9. I’m shocked at this statement: “…any teaching any preaching that in any respect that would lead someone to conclude that inappropriate action like this is ok is repudiated.” Schaap has been preaching stuff like this for years, and no one repudiated it then.

    10. And what about this “inappropriate action” business. I thought you all were in the business of calling sin, sin? You want us all to call homosexuals “Sodomites” because you don’t want to lose the heinousness of the sin under veneer terminology. So why your hesitation here to call rape, rape? To call sexual assault, sexual assault? To even call adultery, adultery? You want to know why no one believes you when you promise transparency? It’s because of stuff like this.

    11. Why is there no concern that the “wonderful man” who is being exalted to the new leadership position lied to the congregation about Schaap a few days ago? You say you hope this investigation will turn out so we can say of him, and the others, “these are men of honor.” It’s too late, Mr. Gibbs. In the last week they’ve demonstrated a deplorable lack of it at times–it would be more appropriate to state that you hope they can somehow regain their honor.

    12. I can’t help but be struck by the continued man-worship that has always characterized this place. “Let’s thank the deacons, great men”–applause. “Let’s thank Mr. Gibbs”–applause. “Let’s applaud the interim liar…I mean pastor.. he’s wonderful.” “I say it again, you’re wonderful people.” “We’ll get through this :(because Christ is a great Savior? No)…because “this is great church.” Where is the public sorrow? Where is the church-wide repentance? Where is even the sense of fallibility? There is none. Everyone is on a pedestal, so they are setting themselves up for this to happen again.

    1. Out of curiosity, I listened to a sermon by Jack Hyles titled “Sunday Is Coming” just to get myself some perspective. What struck me is the sheer arrogance. Hyles gave the “queers” a lot of attention, mocking them. He then turned his attention to everyone else on his list of sworn enemies of the Gospel, that is, the Evangelicals, the non-KJV publishers, and especially women who don’t know their place such as Hillary Clinton and the female Supreme Court justices, who, in Hyle’s opinion, should vacate their positions and go home and bake cookies and let the men do their God-called work.

      Hyles then fantasizes on Sunday when the Lord returns and he will be the new President of the United States, and of course, will rule justly.

      God does have a good sense of humor. Sunday has come. Hyles was involved in an adulterous relationship but never kicked out of his church. His son David got himself in trouble sexually. And now we have Jack Schopp. Yes, Sunday has come, and God has straightened things out indeed. The arrogance and the deceit is plain for all who wish to see. Unfortunately, many of his followers will rationalize away things and allow others to bury the evil under the carpet, and life will go on as normal.

      I always thought Baptist churche polity called for the congregation to select a new pastor. Apparently, one has been selected for them. The new guy will come in, and we’ll have a new leader who will be as loathsome and arrogant as the past leadership. He will preach entertaining sermons that basically curse out everyone he doesn’t like while his congregation will hoot and holler their approval. Nothing will change.

      Sunday will come, and those who expect the Lord to exault them will discover that the despised Catholics, Evangelicals, and (gasp) the “queers” may have indeed been more righteous and will be given a greater reward.

      The denunciatory holier-than-thou tone really makes me sad. The blind truly are leading the blind. I try to live a godly life, but I would never presume to pass judgment on anyone. I don’t know their hearts. It’s a shame that Hyles, Schapp, and those like them can’t see themselves as they really are.

    2. YES, Miriam! You evaluated it well and gave members of FBC who might be reading here an explanation of why we’re uncomfortable how things are being handled.

  22. Is it disturbing that they didn’t mention the victim at all? Yes. But I called that one two days ago when I heard Gibbs was hustling over. You see, that can’t say anything that might sound like an admission of guilt, or a crime, or anything else. This was a giant helping of CYA topped off with a smattering of dontgiveashit. Not surprised.
    (side note: Gibbs always sounded to me like someone who was a bit normal in the IQ, but wanted desperately for everyone to think he was smart)

  23. Wanted to post this article from The Blaze because it includes a small video report of this. It’s got a couple clips of the kind of weirdos we’ve been hammering on, but it also has a pretty sad clip from the chairman of the board of deacons. The line at the end of, “We loved and trusted that man…. we still love him,” I think exemplifies the hurt something like this causes even beyond those immediately involved.

  24. Wanted to post this article from The Blaze because it includes a small video report of this. It’s got a couple clips of the kind of weirdos we’ve been hammering on, but it also has a pretty sad clip from the chairman of the board of deacons. The line at the end of, “We loved and trusted that man…. we still love him,” I think exemplifies the hurt something like this causes even beyond those immediately involved.

    http://www.theblaze.com/stories/married-megachurch-pastor-fired-after-admitting-to-sex-with-16-year-old-church-member/

  25. Just a few things:

    1 – Every church would have an attorney advising them at this point in the process – from Roman Catholic to mainline Protestant. I’m not going to rake them over the coals for having an attorney. I’m surprised they don’t have a better attorney.

    2 – I’m not clear why they’re doing an investigation. They should be telling people to go to the police – the police have specially trained detectives – male and female – who’ve dealt with these issues and they need to talk to them, not to an attorney hired by the church.

    3 – There’s a little confusion on social media. The CLA was brought in by the church and represents the church, not the Schaap family.

    4 – I’m very disappointed there were no words said to the (potential) victims. Schaap made his choices. Victims don’t have a choice.

    5 – They did go to the police a little late, but, it seems like Fundyland is paying attention and they didn’t “make it go away” in the old ways familiar to many of us.

    6 – Overall, I’m encouraged by their handling of this situation. Were they perfect? No, not at all. The cynic in me says the CLA was brought in to assess the potential monetary damage to the church. But, they fired Schaap – they didn’t let him resign. I’d say this is a good first step. Now, maybe Fundyland can have a real conference on abuse and not that silly thing Bob Jones University has planned.

    1. 5 – They did go to the police a little late, but, it seems like Fundyland is paying attention and they didn’t “make it go away” in the old ways familiar to many of us.

      My guess is that their original plan was to sweep it under the rug. The information leaked out and then they had no choice. Remember, the first information from the church was that Schaap was out indefinitely for medical leave. That quickly changed. They are doing the bare minimum right now.
      The only hope for any meaningful changes in fundyland is if the police and FBI come down hard on not only Schaap, but anyone at the church that did or attempted to cover this up. It will only be through the lens of the American judicial system that the magnitude of abuse and coverup in the IFB is brought to light.

      1. The cynic in me certainly agrees. There was conflicting information. I’m guessing CLA told them to minimize lawsuits, fire him. In this case money talks and power walks.

        I do judge FBCH for a lot of this. They have to take precautions. All office doors should have windows so people can see inside an office. I work at a church where we sometimes have private meetings in less than private spaces to protect ourselves. When you foment an atmosphere of “the pastor is always right,” you almost always get something like this.

    2. I second observation #1. I don’t blame the church for getting an attorney at this point, but it would be smarter of the church to get a good attorney.

  26. Here, here, instead of all this junk and dwelling on it, I suggest:

    1. start watching the Olympics and view young men and young women who have worked hard, focused on something positive, and actually accomplishing something. There are many inspiring stories coming out of the Olympics, consider Gabby Douglas.

    2. Consider that there are many other Churches in Chicago land to attend and depart from the Hammond cult.

    3. Read some other books other than the Bible and get a wider perspective of life, of what is going on. Read the New York Times instead of Newsmax. Turn off Fox and keep the TV off.

    4. Avoided making generalizations about those outside the church, ie heathens etc. (did you know that ALan Turing, a British mathematician, during WW 2, was the one who broke the enigma code allowing the Allied Forces to win war? Also, Alan Turing was a homosexual. He committed suicide in the early fifties because he was shamed and almost jailed because of that?)

    5. Eat somewhere else instead of that fast food chicken place.

    6. Go back to school, get a real degree, and forget all about the Fundie disease.

    How does this all tie in here?

    Starters – most folks calling themselves Christians are just plain unlikable, full of criticism for and of others, and will not listen to any other views. Such are the Hammond-tonians.

    We are a sorry lot for sure and why would anyone want to hear the Gospel because of all this?

    1. Yes, yes, turn away from Hylesian brain-washing and turn towards the inanity, plagiarism and general political correctness dogma of the NY Times (of all papers)!

  27. The last time I stepped foot at FBC Hammond was Pastors school 2007 (maybe 2006).
    The speakers like Tom Williams spoke about how to have a better sex life. Spoke of things like have your wife wear a grass skirt with nothing on underneath so you can then mow the grass (obvious reference to cunnilingus.) Schaap and other speakers focused on this topic. He boasted that on Sunday night he taught a couples class where they discussed how to make their sex lives better. And then mocked as a prude those who thought that subject was inappropriate for church.

    I was sitting next to a 13 year boy watching his face as Tom Williams and other speakers droned on about their sexual escapades and “advice”.

    I have the CD’s for all you doubters. Did anyone else attend this Pastors School?

  28. Be with us next time for our special guest Dr. Schaap, ex-pastor, from FBC Hammond speaks on “The End of Times.”
    Thats all for now be with us on Angelone network, I’m Jim Bakker saying God Bless and goodnight.

  29. I vote for taking up another SFL collection and using the money for taking out a full-page ad in Hammond’s largest newspaper, and putting today’s post in it, and let it run for a week.

  30. Like others, I was sickened by the levity. This was no time to be cracking jokes about how ugly the choir is and how something like this is the only way they can get some of their deacons to come to church. Really? And then later on, Gibbs goes on and on about what men of honor and integrity and godly men these deacons are….but they don’t come to church until the pastor has an affair and they have to fire him. WHATEVER!!!

    Also, what’s with the applause after the deacon read his statement? Strangly innapropriate as well.

    I was also struck with the artistry with which Gibbs manipulates the congregation. Come to us first…we’ll tell the authorities what you said. Hell no! I can speak for myself thank you very much.

    Charlatans!

    Oh yeah, and thanks to the brave soul who recorded this for the world to hear.

  31. Please read this with an open mind I am not here to argue or convince I just want to insert a different view point. I attended FBCH for the last 3 years and I have been under Pastor Schaap’s preaching for the entire time. I did not come from a baptist background and was very impressed by the church as a whole. Jack Schaap was a brilliant preacher and a kind man. I have met him personally several times and when I heard about this I was devastated. It was like a horrible nightmare. To the people of First Baptist Church, the impossible happened. The reason many seem upbeat is because Hyles Anderson classes are starting up in three weeks and for the sake of the students people are scrambling to handle this in a balanced way. They feel that an attack has come against them and they cannot fall under it. The students know what he did was wrong, but he was their hero. Many feel that you cannot out sin God’s love so they want to keep loving Jack Schaap even though he has hurt them in the worst possible way. Nobody condones what he did. Nobody is happy about it or ok with it. The college has taken his books out of the school, his pictures off the wall and his sermons off the website. This is very painful for the students and they are also innocent in this, the harsh comments do not help heal their hurts. Many of the members and students had their school bills paid by Jack Schaap when they were behind or received personal notes of encouragement from him. I know that it is easy to bash a christian pastor who fell into sin. I am not saying what he did was ok. IT WAS VERY EVIL AND WRONG. But remember those who were not involved but still had their lives changed. Thank you for your prayers and kindness.

    1. “The college has taken his books out of the school, his pictures off the wall and his sermons off the website.”

      God! This sounds like 1984. We solve the problem by erasing history–as if the person never existed. Why not leave Schapp’s books in the library and his picture on the wall? He probably had some good things to say. The picture can be a reminder of what can happen when one doesn’t behave. This business of eliminating all traces of the person sounds like a dystopian society, as would have happened in Nazi Germany. Exterminate a class of people and then pretend that they never existed.

      1. Penn State did it and they still are getting blasted by sanctions and penalties. Hyles Anderson does not want to give the appearance of being ok with Jack Schaap’s actions. Either way it is painful for everybody.

        1. MegLee,

          There is a difference though. Penn State is not trying to erace all memories of Paterno. Yes, they removed the statue, but his record, although diminished, still stands. The football team still plays, but it has some damaging sanctions. However, they’re not trying to eliminate all memories of the guy. Nobody has taken books out of the library, nor have they scoured their internet archives for all traces of the man.

          Universities by in large are democratically governed. Faculty have a lot of say in what goes on. However, fundy colleges like HAC, feature strong-man rulers whose word is law. Anyone who bucks the system gets eliminated.

          I would love to say that this is an isolated case, but at both Pillsbury and Maranatha where I spent ten years of my life (five years each), the administration could make people disappear and then set up rules so that the collective memories of these people are eliminated. Faculty were afraid to express their opinions even in private for fear of being reported and lose their jobs.

        2. That is true Bob I agree with you about what you said about Penn state and I agree with what you said about the Bible colleges. However, I do not feel that Hyles Anderson is making Schaap disappear, they are trying to show they are not supportive of his recent actions. I think it could be due to the recent problems at Penn state and the cover up. They are trying to show that there was never or currently a cover up. They all feel the shame. The students themselves still love Jack Schaap as a man. Look on Facebook, the good memories of him are being remembered and faculty members are telling the students they are glad that they are able to stay positive in spite of these horrible events. Nobody is defending his actions but they also do not want to crucify a man who has done so much good because of one major mistake in his life. Remember King David he committed adultery and murder and God still loved him and used him greatly. Im sorry if any of this is offensive, I promise I am not brain washed or indoctrinated. I have as many complaints as the next person about fundamentalism, baptists and pastors. However I feel there is more to this story and we need to leave the judging up to God.

        3. Meg – you said “However I feel there is more to this story”.

          Yes there is. Unfortunately I think it will not bode well for Jack Schaap or FBC/HAC. There will be more victims coming forward. The church intially tried to cover it up. The police and FBI will figure this all out. The responce by the church so far as pretty much followed the Standard Operating Procedure for fundy churches in the scandal.

          Most of us were where you are now in your mindset. But now we are free and see the light. And it is a beautiful thing. Some day with God’s grace you will be on the outside too.

    2. @MegL3, You devastation and feelings that your “hero” fell are symptoms of the problem. What you may not yet understand, is the level of worship that was/is given to the M-A-N in the pulpit at FBC. So many people are “shocked and saddened” and feel as if they are in a “nightmare” but these are all symptoms of the massive, massive issue at churches like yours and other IFB churches around the nation. Your pastor was inserted as a filter for people to go through to get to God. I’m sure you don’t believe that, but your words yourself give you away, and from the outside it’s far clearer. You all WORSHIPED him. No, you didn’t fall on your faces in the old fashioned way you’re thinking. But you let this man dictate to you who God was and what he was like. You allowed him to spew garbage from the pulpit UNCHECKED because you all worshiped him. Go ahead, be sad and shocked and dismayed, whatever. But until the entire church including those in leadership realize that as believers, we are ALL men and women anointed by God, and no one man is more special to God than the other. And ALL men are to be held accountable for their sins and allow themselves to be held in check. (especially those that deal with the innocent)

      Until you all come to that understanding, your sorrow and sadness are wasted. Go be sad somewhere else.

  32. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKwBXbRjiL4

    No place or person on earth is perfect. There is no perfect pastor or college. No two people have the same experiences. We live in America where we are free to disagree. Hyles Anderson College as a whole prayed for the life of this girl and she is still living. Do not judge everyone in FBC’s ministry because the leader fell. God did not die, He is still on the throne and the top priority is still Jesus Christ. It always has been and always will be. My heart goes out to all the victims in this situation. I cannot even imagine how Jack Schaap’s wife is doing or his children. I cannot fathom how the life of the girl and her family has changed. Please just pray for all involved and ask God to bless those hurt by this.

    1. Meg, I can understand how conflicting it must be to see someone who expressed so much kindness in some areas (paying tuition, the notes, etc.) fall into such a grave sin.

      However, I’ve heard person after person from this church say things like, “we’re all sinnners” or something in that ball park. You guys need to understand something; this guy had sex with a teenage girl that he was supposed to be counciling. Teenage girls’ tend to be emotionally vulnerable as it is. When someone has a therapist or councelor, they are highly likely to develop feelings for that person because they are hurting, and this person is caring about and helping them.

      For anyone (expecially a pastor) to take advantage of that situation and have a sexual relationship with them is a horrible betrayal. What makes it even worse is that the girl is a teenager.

      Can you see why people are so angry? He betrayed his wife, his kids, the girl(s) he commited adultry with (notice they never call it that in the clip), the church he pastored, and he brought slandor to the name of Jesus. Are you suprised that all those he heaped guilt upon for non-issues such and pants wearing and movies would come out of the woodwork with torches and pitchforks?

      I hope this reply doesn’t come across as too harsh. I am really trying to be kind to you while giving you another perspective.

      “He who digs a pit will fall into it”- Proverbs

      1. Thank you Fundy Fascinated, I appreciate your kind response. Please do not think that I am closed minded I only worship God and I do not need a man to show me how. I’m sorry if I ever seemed to be ok with the adulterous affair or that it involved a teenager. I am very angry at Jack Schaap and I hate what his actions have brought onto the church and the college. I think the people of the church are trying to express forgiveness not acceptance. I never worshiped Jack Schaap nor did i agree on everything he said. I feel that the church has always tried for excellence and tried to do what they thought was right. Nobody was forced to attend the church and the only people who were supposed to follow a dress code were the people that worked for the church. I do not feel that any kind of standards are need to be followed to get to Heaven or gain more love from God. I know that Jesus Christ died for all of us no matter what we have done or how high of standards we have. Standards are between God and the individual. I do not think standards make you a better or worse christian. There is no perfect church I hope that everyone is able to find what makes them happy and that they find the peace of God’s will. The only thing that I will put my trust in is Jesus Christ. Thank you all for your kind responses and I am so sorry for any hurt that FBCH has caused u or any other house of God. The church was a place for edification of believers not a place to fear or avoid. I hope that the things I have said have not hurt the cause of Christ or angered any of you. They are strictly my opinions and observations. Please just remember that as christians we are to love each other as Christ loves us.

    2. Meg,

      I have been where you are… but the problems at FBCH run far, far deeper than just the pastor’s sin. Dr Hyles may have started out, but early on, it changed to being about numbers and about him.

      The “salvation” that the myriad of soul-winners spread there is often a false gospel; it is merely a humanistic sales campaign using manipulation and psychology to produce numbers to boost the stature of the man in charge. People are going out and “selling heaven” – it’s all about them and having their needs met. Never, in my time in such a church, did I ever hear the “soul-winner” tell the lost person about God’s holiness and his wrath upon sin. Their sin was minimized to “well, no one’s perfect and we all make mistakes” – THE big push is to get them to say THE PRAYER. Multitudes of people who have been so dealt with have no interest in God, no interest in Jesus Christ, no awareness of their sin – they just want some free “fire insurance”… thus they say THE PRAYER. There has been no conviction from the Holy Spirit. It is the work of God when a soul is saved – why therefore are men rewarded? It’s because, for all the talk, it is treated as salesmanship, relying on human effort. God’s word tells us that true salvation results in CHANGE. EVERY SINGLE PERSON saved in the Bible changed – some backslid after a while, but there was ALWAYS some growth. These multitudes supposedly being saved have never shown any growth. It’s sad, very sad, but when such a humanistic model abounds, the men in position are apt to be humanistic as well and looking out for what is best for themselves and pampering the flesh.

      I’m afraid that a thorough and complete shakeup will need to be done there before God is honored and Jesus Christ is exalted, as He deserves to be.

      Sorry to go on such a rant…

  33. Would someone with more legal knowledge than I (which wouldn’t take much) please explain to me how the events in this video do not amount to anything less than witness tampering?

      1. Sorry the links to the video “The Future of Hyles Anderson College” that I tried to link do not work I’m not sure what i did wrong.

  34. Love the wife standing in the background of the video the whole time. She had no reason to be in that video since she didnt say a word (just how HAC likes their women) and barely looked at the camera. Hopefully women considering going there realizes this is how they will be expecte to act. Don’t dare speak unless it relates to something about the kitchen or raising your child. Wouldn’t want anyone to possibly get an theology from you.

  35. Discovering and filtering evidence from the flock of sheep to defend the wolf in their midst. Smooth as silk.

  36. This news is sickening and saddening, as are all these comments. I am not defending him. He committed a sin against the young lady involved, his wife, and most importantly Jesus Christ. The church and family of the young woman are both going through difficult time, and everyone is just sitting back and ripping them apart. Schaap should have been the more responsible one, but the young woman is not without blame. I wish we could adhere to the old saying, “If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.” I hope the Christians reading and commenting on this feed, Fundamental Baptist or not will be praying for the young woman and her family to get through this, for Schaap and his wife to find a way to save their marriage, and for the church to find a godly man to lead the church.

    1. That old saying does not come from God’s Word. Rather the Bible says that there is a time to speak and a time to be silent, and for many of us, this is a time to definitely and clearly state what God’s Word says about how Christians and pastors are to behave. At the same time, we most certainly are praying for all involved. Our determination to not turn a blind eye does not mean we cannot also bend our knees in prayer.

  37. I understand that, and please don’t think I’m asking you to remain silent. I know that the Bible says how pastors are to act, and I realize he is at fault. I am glad people know their Bible and realize what needs to be done. I know that thankfully in this country we have the freedom of speech. I just wish all the hatred would stop. Its not needed and it is not helpful or edifying. He committed a terrible sin, yes, but a lie is sin as well. All sin is equal in God’s eyes. You and I are not better than Schaap. If we are to talk about news let us stick to the facts and leave the judgement to God.

    1. I am always perplexed by people who read this site seemingly regularly and certainly of their own free will and then comment on how we shouldn’t let loose on the IFB and all its’ BS. Ahem, that is the whole POINT of SFL and if you don’t want to read our comments then you can make us all go away by not coming here and forget we even exist! :mrgreen:

    2. I’ve tried to post this a few times now, so I apologize if multiple post show up. :???:

      HUGE CORRECTION: All sin separates us from God, but all sin is NOT equal in God’s eyes. Jesus warned that there is a special judgment for those who “offend” children. And in the OT, there are sins that are labeled abominations.

      And as for the “judge not” CRAP? Jesus told us we would know a tree by its fruit. IDENTIFYING SIN is NOT JUDGING.

      When is the last time a preacher railed against a specific sin to the point the listeners knew to whom he was referring, and he was called out for “judging”??? Yeah. CRAP, people. Total CRAP.

      Read Matthew 23. Jesus was talking about RELIGIOUS LEADERS. Schaap and FBCH and IFB churches are all over in that passage. And Jesus called them OUT. He told us to do what they say, but not what they do. Critical thinking is not encouraged much less taught in IFB churches. :roll:

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