296 thoughts on “Dating Rules: Crown College Edition”

  1. All I can say is that people who are stupid enough to agree to these rules deserve to be held to them. Yep, that describes fundies to a tee!

  2. One reads this bullshit and thinks “Is this really too much different than Sharia law”? How dare fundies criticize fundamentalist Islam when they spout the same crap? Really sickening.

    1. That’s a little over the top, don’t you think? Nobody here is going to be beaten for meeting someone of the opposite sex without a chaperone. Expelled, maybe, but not beaten. No co-ed with a skirt that’s too short will have their legs whipped and spray painted red. Even if two students here are caught having sex, neither is going to be stoned. Relax, we’re a long ways from Sharia.

      1. That’s not what sharia is even about. !! It’s simply a moral code for Muslims, and includes … praying. Showering. Giving to charity. Really far-out stuff.

        Modernists, traditionalists and fundamentalists all hold different views of sharia, as do adherents to different schools of Islamic thought and scholarship.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia

  3. hiring yourself out as a third person, its a good gig if you can get it.

    Oh and my younger sister enrolled in this college this fall for the single purpose of meeting a man. good Lord.

  4. All I got is wow.
    Are you kidding me? Interracial dating must be approved by both parents in writing and verbally?

    Do these people realize that segregation is gone? Jim Crow is gone? It’s not 1960 anymore?

      1. One thing to keep in mind is that it *is* the south and parents FLIP over stupid things like that. They also have a new Dean of Women and that affects a lot in this area.

  5. I just skimmed the rule book. What a bunch of crap. Are you serious? Permission to leave campus? These are what 18 to 22 year old adults? Insane.

    1. Ahhh, the “Permission to leave campus” rule.

      I went to BJU as an older student, and being on campus and a freshmen, the arbitrary rule of “you can’t have a car” meant I had to park it and not use it.

      At church, a friend had his car completely break down. It was pretty much unfixable. He was a married student, off campus, needed a vehicle to get to work. So, being on campus and in the dorms, I offered him *my* truck.

      You can already see where this is going, can’t you?

      Well, I got a note to see the Dean of Men, Mr. Miller. That was curious, since I hadn’t broken any rules that I knew of! I got to his office, he had me come in, and a couple of others came in and the door was closed.

      They looked serious, concerned, grave.

      “Why have you been leaving campus at night and not coming back until morning?” they asked.

      I was totally taken back. I had been in my dorm room at night! (And yes, being a 24-year-old freshman in the dorms with 18-year-olds and 19-year-olds was rather unusual. It did feel confining!)

      When I protested that I hadn’t, they said, “Your truck was seen leaving the premises at (such and such) time at night. It came back in the next day. You’ve been off campus a lot, haven’t you?”

      When I realized what was happening I had to laugh, which threw them totally off guard. I then explained the situation to them. “Don’t you think you should have told us first?” the dean asked. “Frankly, I never thought of it. There was a need, I had the ability to help, and I did.” I apologized for causing confusion, and the people in the office were still trying to look somber and serious. I assured them I would let them know when the truck was back in my possession, and left with no demerits.

      Of course, I am sure they thought they’d had an expulsion case. And me coming out smiling from a closed conference in the Dean of Men’s office must have been a sight few people had seen.

      1. Can’t imagine having to live under those rules at that age! It’s frustrating to be micro-managed that way and always viewed with suspicion.

  6. Wow talk about a FIRESTORM!!!I All rules begin for a reason some because the people who made them are crazy and others because they were trying to protect the purity of the students. I went to a Bible College in the late 80′s and it was fairly strict but nothing like this.

    Two things strike me the most about the policy. I am a dad with two teenagers so I am going to implement the 3rd party policy. Just kidding, kind of. Even the Amish allow their kids who date some time alone even if it is only the wagon ride home after a church event. At some point you have to let your grip go a bit so people can mature and yes there will be mistakes.

    However, the interracial dating thing is just crazy. Being a Canadian and living near Toronto one of the most multicultural cities in the world this seems so foreign to me. I understand the history and the baggage that comes with the issue but shouldn’t the church be an example and leader in race relations?

    To be consistent if you are going to ask permission of both parents then every dating coupe on campus should have the same requirements. Who wants people of different heights or different states dating? Who knows what this might that lead to? Actually, to make things easier why not just arrange marriages from first semester that way it takes the pressure off?

  7. Looking back 30+ years ago to my first rip to Fundy U,there were a lot of kids who needed the rules. They were like @Apathetic says his social skills were. There were others of us whose parents had given them a bit of rope and hadn’t yet hung themselves (ourselves?), so the rules were a bit constricting. Maybe I should have tried following more of them, but since I’m in the 29th year of actually enjoying, not enduring my marriage to the girl I met there, it worked for me.

    My second trip to a different Fundy U, I was married and lived off campus so the rules didn’t apply. Except the silly rule about physical contact on campus, in case a visitor saw us. “They might not know we were married and get the wrong idea.” (I plead the 5th as to whether I ever broke that rule, by the way.)

    My thought has always been in any ministry I had a part in, that most of the kids in my classes needed a good example, and that seeing me hold my wife’s hand, treat her respectfully, and show that I truly liked her was better than having them wonder if any church leaders had good relationships or just talked about them.

  8. Just read the dress code section … I can’t wear my tragus ring. Fine. But how in the holy heck would they know whether or not any other body part was pierced unless they were looking, and what right do they have to examine my body in search of tats or piercings? That’s grotesquely intrusive. If my tats and piercings are where they can’t be seen, then they are no one’s business but mine. Seems like it shouldn’t be a problem for the school.

    1. Crown College’s Book of What You May Do

      1. Females may attend classes or church as long as they wear burqas and keep their eyes cast down at all times. They may speak when spoken to.

      2. Males may attend classes or church as long as they avoid looking at females (those bulky-looking things covered head to toe in cloth). If they are married, they may touch their wives once a month if they bathe well afterwards. If they are single, they may speak to a female if they have permission from staff.

      3. Males and females both may do other activities as determined by staff, but they may not ask permission to do these activities. They must wait for staff to determine what is or is not acceptable.

  9. Another thing that jumped out at me: According to the rules, if you somehow make a friend who has a house off campus and you are invited to bring your plus-one to a party at that house, you must also bring along a chaperone who has been approved by the college.

    Can you imagine trying to explain who that third person is and why they are in your friend’s living room? Can you imagine being that third person? Has this ever actually happened, or is it just doublespeak for “You may not form connections of friendship with local people?”

    1. Just think of the “good testimony” you will be as you bring along your uninvited guest that nobody else knows to the party…a guest that you probably don’t even really know yourself.

      I would just start calling them my paid bodyguard. As bizarre as that sounds, it is far less weird than calling them my chaperone or a party crasher that follows me around. Let them deal with the questions about their career choice.

      :roll:

  10. Aside from the interracial dating rule (which is hands down the most outrageous and offensive thing in this list), these people are practically begging for their students to be both emotionally and sexually dysfunctional.

  11. I place blame in three areas for the troubles my husband and I have had in our marriage – one third to Fundy U for such dating rules as we could never get to know each other in a real life situation, one third to our fundy pastor’s premarital counselling which covered nothing relevant to marriage (finances and in-laws would have been a huge help), and one third to our ignorance in being so young and getting married and not recognizing the prior two.

  12. So, let me get this right. They define dating as “being with or talking to a member of the opposite sex other than a brief, casual encounter.”

    So, then, by their definition, this includes even your mom?

    What a bunch a sick Bast$%^ds

    1. That brings up an interesting point. I knew a few brother/sister combos at college. They had to only talk to each other in the approved dating areas. That IS creepy when you think about it.

    2. Seriously creepy. Same with silly rules barring married couples from public displays of affection: wouldn’t it benefit kids to see loving married couples?

      It takes a warped mind to consider such things shameful.

  13. “Interracial dating must be approved in writing and verbally by the parents of both students” keeps flashing in front of my eyes, over and over, like an alarm clock’s numbers. I . . . I . . . wow.
    Holy crap Jesus must be crying over these people.

  14. A lot of the dress code stuff reminded me of my all-girls Catholic high school… but it seemed less vile when applied to minors instead of GROWN UPS. Also, some of it was just out there. “Ladies” can’t even HAVE pants on campus, let alone WEAR them, EVER? You have to wear culottes to exercise? (Are you ALLOWED to exercise?)

    I went to the school’s web site and looked at their photo galleries because, I’m not going to lie, the fundies fascinate me. The photos of the volleyball team show that the ladies wear shorts for their competitions. :shock: I feel defrauded.

  15. I did not grow up fundy. I actually met my ex in college. We went to a state u together. It was very heartbreaking watching his transformation to full fundy. During his transformation, when we would make out he would make us pray quickly afterwards. He would pray things like “forgive her for being a temptress”. It was real hurtful and made me feel awful and like a harlot. Obviously, the relationship did not work out as I was too “worldly” for him and I did not meet the “helpmeet” checklist. When we broke up, he was so deep into crazy that he truly believed Satan brought us together. He ended up with a christian educated girl. I hope she was not too upset when I told her she’s not the first girl he has kissed. :lol:

    1. Heaven help any girl he married, fundy or not. This kind of thing burns my butt. The nerve. He blamed you for being a temptress, but not himself, it’s always the woman’s fault. That’s the reason for all the preaching on modesty… always directed to women. If a man is tempted, it’s our fault never his. Such bull puckey. When will men take responsibility for their own temptations instead of always blaming us? :evil:

    2. Seems like it would be kind of a mood-killer to have to get on your knees and pray for forgiveness after making out.
      When instead, he should have gotten on his knees to give thanks.

  16. Hi. I know the last post on this was from February. But I couldn’t help but respond to this thread. I went to HAC and graduated in 2010. I originally planned on taking my degree in Marriage and Motherhood, but a teacher there advised me to consider getting a teaching degree. When I was a sophomore/junior, I fell and snapped my ankle and foot very badly… I had to have 4 months physical therapy just to be able to walk again. When I fell, I was surrounded by about 8 – 10 college guys. One stooped down and asked me if there was anything he could do… at that moment I wanted NO ONE to touch me, I was afraid they would make something worse. When a staff member saw all those guys just standing there, she scolded them for doing nothing. So that it wouldn’t be improper two men, one being a student and the other being an administrator, carried me up a few flights of steps and took me to a car where a lady student/staff member took me to the emergency room. These accusations of not being to help a lady when she falls are ridiculous. That is simply not true. The male students may know the rule about not touching, and THINK it applies in those situations but that is not true. I’m glad they had rules about not touching. If you can’t follow these simple rules in Bible college, what makes you think you can follow God’s rules in life? Granted, there were rules I didn’t like, one of the purposes of the rules was to test where your heart is at. If you don’t obey those in authority, what makes you think you’ll obey the God which placed them over you? Also, you have to have a code of conduct. You are soldiers in the Lord’s army, shouldn’t it be
    higher than that of the U.S. military? About the degrees being worthless? Ya they’re worthless if you don’t go into ministry.. duh! The purpose is to train workers for the
    ministry. Bible college isn’t for everyone. That’s why you have to get accepted?! I have two degrees in education from Bible colleges (I earned my Master’s Degree @ WCBC) and of course I can’t get a job as a teacher in a public school. I didn’t get two teaching degrees to teach in a public school. I was training for the ministry. I didn’t get a degree to make a living on; I got a degree to live for Jesus. He owns the cattle on a thousand hills; He will provide! I’m not rich; in fact, you could consider me poor, but I have a place to live, a husband who loves me, food on the table, and great God to serve! I’m not a “crazy fundamentalist”, but if I was, I’d rather be crazy for God and poor than rich and sane and not serving Christ. Yea, I’m a woman, but realize they do not say women should be treated like inferiors, but that we get special treatment by gentlemen! About the racist issue, oh I could go on forever. The issue is not racist. Some hold the belief that God commanded not to marry those of other races. Others, like me, believe that God commanded to not marry into other religions. Most college students were sent to Bible college by their parents (not all) and entrusted the college with their precious children (they will always be children in their parents’ eyes, especially if they reared their children carefully in the admonition of the Lord); therefore, the college wants to be sure they are aware their children are dating of another race (because culture CAN and HAS caused problems between families). They are not saying it is wrong, they are just trying to be “peacemakers”. Can you argue with that? I didn’t marry someone from Bible college, but I dated there. I’m afraid to say that if some of those rules were not in place, I may have ruined myself for my husband, or felt obligated to marry the wrong one for that very reason. Many teenagers in the world ruin themselves everyday. At least somewhere we know that someone is trying to prevent that from happening. I’m sorry, but each year of college, I would look back at the new freshmen class and see how immature they were. They are in a transition stage coming out of high school and there are some rules that NEED to be places there to control their desire to do and try things they couldn’t while living at mom and dad’s house. I believe these rules help to contain them while they mature. By the time they reach their senior year, most will have matured enough to marry. If you think that’s wrong, then don’t go there, but I for one plan on sending my children to Bible college. Will I force them? No. But I will encourage it like my dad did for me. He didn’t tell me I HAD to go, but that if I did, he would help me financially to get through it. If all are preachers and missionaries, etc. there would be no doctors, or lawyers, or anything else that we need in life; therefore, Bible college isn’t for everyone. I stand as one who grew up in the “Fundy” home went to 2 “Fundy” colleges, earned 2 “Fundy” degrees, and I’m still a Bible-believing, KJV only, Independent, Fundamental Baptist and married to one. I am glad I didn’t quit, and I’m glad I’m not leaving fundamentalism. God doesn’t change; why should I, if I am following Him? Life is better when you aren’t criticizing God and His men and His colleges. If God be for us, who can be against us?

    1. Mrs. Hamilton, I wish to make a few points to you.

      1. If you are 18 years of age, you are considered enough of an adult to vote and go fight for your country and give your life on a battlefield somewhere, but yet you proclaim people of this age are unable to make their own decisions about who they will date , the music to which they listen, and what they choose to wear.

      **People from your camp also proclaim that Jack Schaap’s UNDERAGE victim was a seductress that knew exactly what she was doing, and place blame upon her. Do you see any contradictions there?**

      2. Peacemaker or not, the Bible does not condemn interracial marriage, regardless of what some ignorant hillbilly thinks. It is Crown College’s responsibility to take a stance on this “doctrine” and leave it up to the parents to object, if they are ignorant enough to do so. There are some Gothardite fundys out there who think you shouldn’t eat pork. Should Crown “keep the peace” and ask for permission slips to eat ham sandwiches?

      3. Rules do not “keep you from ruining yourself”. This is the very definition of legalism. The sin nature with which you were born already ruined you from the beginning. You made a decision to remain sexually pure or not, and the college does not have a role in maintaining your chastity.

      4. God did not establish Bible colleges. He established His church. That is even in the KJV only Bible you proclaim to follow.

      5. All people should be trained in some sort of marketable trade. Bible colleges hinder this by having no regional accredidation and by being run by faculty and administration with little to know valid education for themselves. Even Paul had a trade.
      On a side note, a lack of any sort of academic integrity is where incorrect doctrines like KJV onlyism, have come from. Those positions are certainly not in your Bible.

      5. Finally, you say you were trained to be a teacher. I want to be careful how I say this because I wish not to be insulting, but I notice your post seems to be, at times, a long run on sentence, with no proper breaks for paragraphs.
      I recognize this could be because you were in a rush or do not know how to indent and space your comments, but the impression you leave by your post does not make a good argument for any training you may have received to be a teacher through any of your unaccredited Bible degrees-undergraduate or graduate.

      1. Micheal great response. I empathize with this person to a degree because I was indoctrinated from birth as apparently she was. The difference is I never disengaged critical thinking. Ms. Hamilton I implore you to as questions. Question why you believe what you do and trace back where your reason ends. If it ends at a man of “God” telling you then you need to investigate possible and most likely error.
        You may find that you are in fact a part of a cult.

      2. Well in spite of Mrs. Hamilton’s “unaccredited Bible degrees” at least she can spell (unlike you). And I hope that I was careful how I said that, I didn’t want to sound insulting – NOT

      3. These colleges are for the most part only places for IFB Kids to meet and marry. I met my wife at the one under scrutiny. I broke the rules and do did the Dr.’s son . Only one who got campused was me. hmmmmmmm wonder why?

    2. “the college wants to be sure they are aware their children are dating of another race (because culture CAN and HAS caused problems between families)”

      If CULTURE is the potential problem, then why even mention race??? I agree culture can cause serious issues – even as small as different ways to deal with money, children, etc… If culture is the potential problem, the college should make sure parents are aware if their child is dating anyone not from their hometown or state. Or, they could let the students be adult in this one miniscule area :shock:

      1. We should be concerned about the relationship of culture and race because race is a cultural invention.

  17. It is not the college’s business who the student dates. These students are adults. It is up to these adult students to let their parents know about their dating partner…when they choose to do so. There is no biblical or moral reason to support racism. Methinks IFBx church/college leadership are the real racists and they are just blaming their policy on others to get the attention off them.

    Ask WCBC’s Dr. R why he gave that student demerits for inter-racial dating? R-A-C-I-S-M

    Calling an unaccredited “diploma” a degree is ridiculous. These schools are a waste of time and money. One of my friends graduated from West Coast Baptist with a phoney “teaching degree” too, and now she is starting college as a freshman in order to earn a real one. Earning a degree should make your job finding easier – not install blockades to opportunity.

    Standards are absolutely useless in producing godliness in the hearts of people. This is also what Col 2:20-23 says:

    Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

    21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

    22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

    23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

  18. A more clear translation of Col 2:20-23

    NASB

    20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

  19. KUDOS TO CROWN COLLEGE!
    Other people should start their own and publish their own set of rules if they don’t like these! I mean it is a PRIVATE INSTITUTION.

    1. You’re absolutely correct it is a “Private Institution.” And since the first amendment isn’t completely dead yet we take pride in exposing the excess and extremes found in Independent Fundamentalist Baptist institutions in hope that we can serve as a warning to the unsuspecting and uninformed. The extra-biblical standards of these institutions are more akin to Sharia law than to Christian love and liberty. But, then again, rules are more comfortable and easier to enforce so it boils down to performance and power rather than focusing on Christ and the Gospel.

  20. I looked through the pdf of the whole handbook. The Apostle Paul calls this kind of legalism worldliness and useless. Apparently some worldliness is irresistible even to fundamentalists.

  21. Love these rules! Love MY Crown College! So very grateful to the LORD for the boundaries placed in my life by first, my parents, then leaders like the faculty & staff of Crown College where God so graciously allowed me the privilege to attend for five wonderful years. Taking the high road is not not choosing between the good & the bad, but choosing between the good & the best & choosing the best. This keeps my conscience void of offense & God surely has “redeemed my life from destruction” (Psalm 103) by His blessings of influences in my life. GOD IS SO GOOD!!!!

      1. I do not understand why people who don’t like this site and find it “non-edifying” keep coming back. If it is so non-edifying shouldn’t you be finding someplace that does edify you? That’s like a vegan going to Bubba’s BBQ and complaining there’s no tofu on the menu.

        1. Stump, I believe I was speaking to Gracie, not you. And the reason why I come to this site is to see just how many spiritual and loving things you all have to say, and to try to understand how you can be so full of hate. Have a pleasant tomorrow.

        2. Dave, it’s so kind and loving of you to purposely refer to me as “Stump” instead of “semp”. Now if you are spelling-challenged, I apologize. If you deliberately did that, you are mean, nasty, and cruel. In other words, deliberately calling people names is not loving or Christ-like and you need to confess your appalling behavior.

        1. I wasn’t making fun of anyone. I was asking a question. If you think asking a legitimate question is making fun of someone — well, I can’t help you there. It’s a recipe for disaster to look to man’s rules about how to live. How old do you have to be before you don’t need mommy and daddy’s permission about whom to date?

        2. Semp, the whole website and almost all the persons on it make fun of others, and if not directly making fun of but being self-righteous in their loathing of fundamentalism. As I asked another one earlier (who happened to call me a name) I have yet to see any answers on this website. All you are so quick to condemn but I have yet to see what (if anything) you all stand for. What is it about fundamental Christianity that you hate ? I’ve asked that numerous times and have yet to receive an answer.

        3. What is it about fundamentalist Christianity that I hate?

          Let me count the ways.

          1. “For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.” (Matthew 23:4)

          2. “If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?” 1 John 4:20

          I hate fundamentalism. I do not hate fundamentalists. I hate the destruction they wreak on others with their “faith.” But I do not hate them.

          If I am judgmental of them, it is by direct experience over years and years. They claim to have the right faith, but it does not stop them from being as ungodly as those they condemn. Pastors who preach against sexual sin commit adultery, and it is epidemic among fundamentalists. Pastors protect sexual predators and excoriate their victims. Fundamentalists are content with social injustice, and often defend it vigorously.

          And lies? Oh fundamentalism is full of lies. Creationism is founded on lies and exists by lies. And whenever a philosophy or idea has to be defended by lies, it is worthless.

          Fundamentalism creates its ever-growing list of doctrines by ripping Scripture parts out of context.

          Fundamentalism has a superior, “We are going to heaven and you others are not” attitude. They regularly lie about other denominations. We were told in our IFB church that the Episcopal Church didn’t preach the gospel and did not emphasize the blood of Christ. Then we visited and learned the truth.

          Fundamentalism uses cultic indoctrination and brainwashing tactics to keep their followers in-group and subservient. Those who learn anything outside the group and expose errors inside the group are quickly and efficiently isolated to keep their knowledge from contaminating others.

          Don’t think so? Look at all the rules at PCC, BJU, and other fundamentalist institutions. Object to a pastor sitting on the Board who protected a rapist and blamed his victim? You, too, can be shipped, denied graduation, and be humiliated.

          Fundamentalism believes in total obedience to “the pastor,” who is in his own way to be reverenced much like the Pope. Doctrines are created to help maintain the power structure.

          And people who question? People who don’t conform? They are tossed out as trash. Public humiliation of “the little people” is a norm in fundamentalism. So is protecting the “clergy” from having to answer for their grievous sins.

          Oh, not every fundamentalist acts this way. Not every Pastor is a tyrant. But they are not representative of fundamentalism as a whole.

          Fundamentalism as a whole represents Christianity without Christ. Rules have replaced Grace. Love is conditional. And you are expected to brainlessly and mindlessly accept all the drivel, the prejudice, the racism, and the hatred they exude and think it is love.

          And if this is “over the top,” well, a lot of bitter experiences have pushed me there. It took many years for me to finally say “No More” to the abuse.

        4. The reason you don’t see answers is because you are reading with blinders on. Before you start randomly commenting and condemning, take some time to peruse the comment streams of the last few years and the comments found by following the “About” tab at the top.

          You need to read our comments as we write them without the Fundy Filter you are looking through.

        5. Wil, not true. I have done plenty of perusing the last week or two. All I see is put downs and sarcasm.
          You say that I look through a ‘Fundy Filter’ – Funny
          You don’t know me, or what I am. I simply respond to the idiotic and cruel statements I see posted here.
          So tell me Wil, what do YOU believe ? Does any church teach the truth in your opinion ? Come on, tell me, it won’t hurt.

        6. If you had truly taken the time to go over this site and read comment streams you would have your answer. Your sarcastic use of our names and your attitude shows you have a desire to be right, not to actually learn.

          I know you just as well as you know me. I do know that you have waltzed into a community you really aren’t a part of, and then commenced to belittle and insult a group of people you do mot know. Take my advice and read the whole “About” from the link at the top of the page. It is obvious from your comment that you have not, since my background and many of the others are written out there.

          I believe in God’s Word, not man’s word. According to the ridiculous list of rules this particular discussion is about, I have dated an awful lot of women during my marriage. To say that anything other than a brief encounter is a date is moronic. Eating lunch with a friend of the opposite gender, sitting with them, even giving them a ride is not a date. These rules show an irrational fear of people not being able to control themselves. This is a ridiculous list made by a meglomaniacal control freak, not a caring, nurturing leader.

        7. Well RG, thank you for the reply. I differ from you on many points you raised but I appreciate you answering one half of my inquiry.
          You claim to “hate the movement but love the person” (gee, where have I heard that before?)But the way everyone acts on here seems hardly loving.
          I believe in creation, it’s not based on a lie as you claim but on God’s word.
          You mention fundamentalists ‘ever-growing’ list of doctrines is based on ripping scriptures out of context – which ones ?
          And I have never heard of such a “superior we are
          going to heaven and you are not” attitude as I see here.
          I realize that I will never change you feelings about this, as you will never change mine. But I think that if you are what you guys claim that you are that you should be loving. Condemn sin when you see it but don’t condemn all who belong to the movement.
          Again, thank you for writing.
          Dave

        8. If you will notice, we do not condemn all who belong to the movement. All you have to do is read the comments and that will become pretty evident.

          Jesus never condemned ordinary people. He reserved His condemnation the religious leaders, the ones who condemned others, who thought of themselves as so spiritual but were in fact full of corruption.

          Why do we go after issues like the dating rules at Crown College, or BJU, or PCC, or other fundamentalist institutions? Because we see inherent contradictions. “While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption” (2 Peter 2:9).

          And people continue to follow these corrupt individuals, deliberately blind to their sins, or making excuses for them. The Leaders tell the people that if they are adversely affected by the abuse of authority figures, it is their own fault, not the fault of the abusers.

          I am sure that in every evil movement one can find things to admire. That is what Fundamentalism is. It is an evil movement. It brings people along with it who might, in another setting, have become very decent human beings. It destroys lives. It fetters people in spiritual and emotional chains and tricks them into thinking they are experiencing true freedom.

          Not every person in fundamentalism is evil. No one here says they are. But fundamentalism IS evil and we rejoice with those who can escape its clutches.

        9. UncleWil, If you think I use sarcasm it is only defending others that you people have picked on. I have no desire to “learn” what truth is, I asked what you people do stand for because of all of your negative comments, it would be refreshing to hear just one positive statement.
          Perhaps you think that I am a IFBer, I am not. I realize that they have problems and that they are sinners like everyone is. I just think it’s sad that you guys are picking on them alone.
          Anyway, thanks for the response.
          P.S. This whole discussion of these rules is moronic.

        10. Dave says, “I have no desire to learn what truth is.”

          Well, then.

          Did you expect us to be surprised by that declaration? Because everything you have written on this site has SCREAMED that you have no desire to learn what truth is.

          We talk about the problems with IFB because that is what we know. I have no standing to criticize other groups.

          We have made this point repeatedly.

        11. MSK, I was going to thank you for your earlier post, again I do not agree with many of the things you said but I’m sure it is reciprocal. But now you make this comment about me not wanting to know what truth is, I was simply responding to UncleWils attack on me when he said something about me not wanting to learn, I don’t need to learn, I already know what I believe,and have for 50 years. Sheesh

        12. Dave,

          You are the one who said what you said. I just agreed with you, because, based on what you have written and the way you have interacted with people, you were speaking the truth. If you were exaggerating being sarcastic or something, that would be good to know. People on this site like to treat serious things seriously, and like to joke around when the time is right…once we know each other enough to joke around. it is important to understand that it is easy to be misunderstood when we’re all typing messages to each other. You are a newcomer who has been uniformly harsh and belittling to people, which is part of the behavior that drove many of us from the IFB in the first place. If you are an older man, as you indicate, then you should have learned more propriety in dealings with new people than you have shown here.

          You have demonstrated an unteachable spirit in almost every one of your posts. You criticize us for what we say, yet you say you aren’t IFB. If you aren’t IFB, how do you even know what position you SHOULD take on ANY of this? How do you know what has been going on in our little world? How do you know if our complaints are legitimate?

          My questions here are serious…not mocking, believe it or not.

          Speaking, again, only for myself, I take the Bible very seriously. I disagree with those who claim that the Creation account is based on lies (though I do not mock them or condemn them for those beliefs, choosing instead to save my mocking and condemnation for those whose beliefs and actions are manifestly harmful to others). You say that you disagree with many things I said, and that you are sure the feelings are mutual. I have no idea, as I cannot tell how you disagree with me, or on what basis. I also have no idea what you believe. I only see that you mock and belittle people who have been involved in a movement that harmed them; a movement of which you have never been a part, and so you don’t know much about it. Not like WE know, anyway.

          If you want to have a real conversation, that would be cool. If you want to give Bible reasons why you disagree with stuff I have said, I would really like that. Maybe I have gotten some stuff wrong. Maybe I need correction. Maybe we simply have differences of opinion, and the Bible won’t clear things up (the Bible doesn’t micromanage us, I believe!), and we will agree to disagree. But to get there, can we please stop criticizing in broad terms, and get to the specifics?

          Thanks!

    1. I’m grateful for the boundaries my parents made me adhere to as children, but I don’t think it is a good thing as one matures. You should be able to study the Scriptures, seek God’s will, and set your own boundaries.

      Colleges should not be a nanny or substitute parent to their students; colleges are not there to instill character (I would state that a young man/young lady without character should NOT be attending any college until they grow up and can behave in a mature manner).

      Rules are needed to protect people from others and to maintain order.

      If you believe that people who follow the rules are spiritual, you have a problem with your understanding of what “spiritual” means.

    2. God is good. And I’m glad you can be thankful for the rules you were placed under. I’m glad they didn’t hurt you like they harmed so many other people. But please don’t attribute the rules to God, because they are not from Him.

    3. Hmmm. Scripturally, rules are inferior to relationships.

      The Pharisees of Jesus’ day studied the Scriptures, found what they saw were Scriptural principles, then made this whole, complex list of rules for everyone to keep. The rules were designed to keep people from breaking the Law. They were never designed to make a right relationship with God achievable.

      And Jesus condemned the Pharisees and their rules, because they were “teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

      We do that a lot in our IFB (and other) churches. In the IFB church I attended, there was a Constitution full of rules. You had to agree with it all if you were going to be active in any real role.

      One thing they included was a complete prohibition on alcohol. When I asked one of the Deacons why, since Jesus made wine, wine is not grape juice, and the only prohibition is against getting drunk, he said, “Well, you have to draw the line somewhere.”

      I pointed out that the Scriptures had drawn a line — don’t get drunk! Why did we need a stronger line? I pointed out that was like the reaction to God’s law to Adam, “Don’t eat,” and Eve’s interpretation, “Don’t touch.” I showed him what Jesus said about teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

      He was NOT appreciative.

      You may be glad for the rules. But the rules don’t let you stand on your own before the Lord or before people. Like the rich young ruler, you can tell Jesus, “All these I have kept.” But if the rules are your focus, relationships aren’t.

      Jesus said that all the Law is contained in two ideas. Love God. Love people. Oh, and that includes loving yourself, because He said to love your neighbor as yourself.

      That incident was one point in my journey out of fundamentalism. I wanted a relationship.

  22. Since this post, Crown’s handbook has been taken down. If you have nothing to hide, why hide it? If they use the reason that “people mock it,” I Corinthians 1:27 (But God hath chosen the simple things of the world to confound the wise) is a good argument.

  23. Crown college is an amazing place. If you truly want to live right then it’s for you. Seriously, I met and married the most wonderful man in the world here. If the rules were not created, there would be a lot of people regretting so much that they would have done. Take a second. If you had a daughter in college would you rather her be all over every BOY at the college (example look at every secular college these days) or saving her self for the one she will marry? It’s just a perspective. It’s all bible. My family is not racist at all and neither am I, but they are taking the honor in making sure it’s okay with the parents before they allow dating different races. Seriously it’s respect towards parents wishes. Nothing other than that! I have no idea why you imbeciles have so much criticism towards a place you have never been. The spirit of God is there and I would truly rethink before you ever criticize a place where The Lord is honored.

    1. Why should I expect my daughter to throw herself at every boy in college if there are no rules against it? Were you that out of control?

      Rules do not make a successful Christian. Nor, by the way, does coming into a marriage without virginity mean a ruinous life. Virginity does not equal virtue. Ignorance does not equal bliss.

      I fully expect my daughter to make sensible decisions. I would prefer she go to a secular school and major in a field leading to a good career. Right now her head is full of the stuff fundies pump into 14 – year – old hearts, including dreams of finding romance on one of the traveling evangelistic teams. I am praying that time will help dissolve such bubbly nothings.

      Rules don’t make people spiritual or keep them safe.

      One son of mine went to Northland, and found their rules helped create a lot of hypocrites.

    2. I would be careful before you talk about not being racist. Telling young adults they have to get permission for any cross-racial relationship, dating or otherwise, IS racism. And it shows a lack of trust by the parents and the administration.

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