Christian Womanhood Follow-up

Someone posted a link to this video in the comments of the last post and I thought it was worth promoting to its own post. We’ll see how long it takes FBC Hammond to disable embedding on it…

I got a couple of giggles from this video not the least of which was thinking about how “celebrating girlfriends” takes on a whole knew meaning when you think of it in the context of Jack Hyles.

146 thoughts on “Christian Womanhood Follow-up”

    1. I concur! President Obama had to re-take his oath of office when it got blundered, and the 2 Repubs that tried to swear in to congress via C-SPAN had to retake theirs too. firfst doesn’t count.

    1. I know what a bizarre thing to say, “Some day you are going to have girlfriends all over the county and all over the world as special as your sisters.” ?? Having girlfriends is all about quality not quanity. Besides she said pastor’s wives are more special so even though everyone is an automatic girlfriend that comes, pastor’s wives are set apart.

    1. I know, right? Slumber parties, girlfriends, what? These are not the words of a mature, intelligent, self-assured modern woman. They’re the words of a middle-school girl.

      I guess painting women as childish and immature makes it easier to control them, though. What an old, sexist idea, though. Back in the day, women generally were considered children, which is how men excused marrying underage girls and controlling every aspect of their lives. Sad to see that it’s still going on.

      1. “Femininity is a gentle tender quality found in a woman’s appearance, manner and nature. A feminine woman gives the impression of softness and delicateness. She has a spirit of sweet submission, and a dependency upon men for their care and protection. Nothing about her appears masculine, no male aggressiveness, competence, efficiency, fearlessness, strength, or the ability to kill her own snakes.” Helen Andelin’s Fascinating Womanhood (1963)

        Now memorise this girls! :mrgreen:

        1. Sorry, my women kill their own snakes.
          They are also smart, competent, efficient, brave, strong, and independent, but killing your own snakes is the make-or-break qualification. :mrgreen:

          (Actually, I don’t advocate killing snakes. Most snakes are harmless, and provide rodent and insect control.)

        2. “..a dependency upon men for their care and protection”

          And, what happens if your man becomes infirm?

          HF and I are partners. We take care of EACH OTHER, and he thinks its hot that I can match him in the batting cage… for the record.

        3. Sadly, that book was a textbook in the fundy high school I went to many many years ago. (Christian Womanhood has nothin on me. I took “Charm and Comportment” in school and know how to get a man to open my doors and feel the urge to protect me. BLEAHHHHH!!!

    2. Ooooh, at the “World’s Largest Slumber Party,” could be paint our nails in a modest pale pink or peach, and curl our hair on foam rollers?? Because we can’t talk about men (male bashing), or each other (gossip), and we can’t watch movies (too vulgar for our delicate souls), and we can’t play Twister (too “physically intimate”)sooo… our choices are limited. Oh wait- could we have a modest fashion show?! Everybody bring all your best jumpers and dresses with Peter Pan collars. ๐Ÿ˜€

      1. Ha ha… I love it!

        Well, if we can’t talk about men and sex, and we can’t gossip about the girls not there, and we can’t overeat (because we’re supposed to stay the same shape as we were on our wedding day)… oh and we can’t drink alcohol, then WHAT’S THE FRIGGIN POINT OF GETTING TOGETHER?! ๐Ÿ˜‰ :mrgreen:

      1. I think that stems from the fact that they taught about 30 years ago when my mom was there that “Pastor’s Wives can never have close friends”. You’ll note, the answer was “Yes, you can have other pastor’s wives for close friends.” The idea was that having friends among your congregants could lead to gossip and/or accusations of favoritism, and so on.

  1. Can I be her girlfriend and give her hair a proper blow out?

    Those bangs and flat hair are KILLING me!

    Seriously though, I feel sorry for her, because every time I see her in a video or picture, she looks so beaten down. I know what its like to truly believe you’re not as important as the men, and it does sad things to the spirit.

    1. Never understood the fundy hair. Either flat and lifeless, or fried and HUGE! And you know girlfriend wouldn’t let you near her hair. The only thing y’all would do during that time would be man-bashing! ๐Ÿ™‚

      1. I bet A LOT of man bashing goes on among close friends. Hence, the need to put a multi-page article about it in the magazine.

        What’s sad is that these women can’t express any frustration about their husband TO their husband, because they are drilled that this would be unsubmissive and is a fault of themselves.

        All that built-up contempt isn’t healthy, and there has to be a lot of it.

        1. You’re right, Natalie. I’ll bet a lot of these poor ladies feel absolutely trapped.

          My hubby is a great guy, but trust me – when he pisses me off, he hears about it!

        2. And on a side note, my sis is a hair stylist and she and I enjoy a nice glass of wine when she does my hair. ๐Ÿ˜€

    2. Even I knew that hairdo was a disaster. I have no idea to describe what all is wrong with it, but it’s awful. I’ve told my mom, I may not have the best hair, but I can weed out most people by their hair to know whether I want any hair advice from them. :).

      I wouldn’t let this one give me advice on how to groom a poodle.

      1. Well, from the ears down, it’s not too bad. But, the band thingy MUST go (because we’re not 12) and a side bang is fine, but she is plagued with a large forehead (like myself) and should wear a little bang on the right side as well.

        If I were doing her hair (girlfriend), I would cut in some layers blending the layers to the bangs to give the crown some height, blow out the bangs to make them straighter and longer, pulling them forward from almost mid-crown, giving her the side bang with the little bang on the right to make the forehead appear oval with the rest of her face. And, blowing it all up so she has body.

        It’s my day off and I’m still talking hair!!! I can’t get away from it!!!! ๐Ÿ˜‰

  2. If Hyles Anderson doesn’t let women eat bananas without a fork & knife, why is she allowed to stick a phallic mic in her face to produce youtube videos?

        1. I only wish I had been kidding. I had the same reaction like a year ago or so on here when someone said that.

      1. I still don’t get why that rule only applies to female students. Don’t these folks hate homosexuality even more than they hate heterosexuality?

  3. I’m still watching this thing, so I’ll list my comments as I watch:

    My, but that’s a terribly annoying voice that first announcer person has. It’s the sort of cutesy little “Imma SO ECXITEDDD” voice that I would rather throw myself off a building than use.

    You pronounce Schaap “skap”? I didn’t know that, I always assumed it was “shap” or something.

    …Girlfriends. Someone shoot me, please. The closest I ever got to girlfriends was my cousins and I doing stupid stuff at 2 AM if we were all at one of our houses.

    …why would it ever NOT be OK to have close friends?! Not having close friends is… dangerous. It’s scary to think that anyone might think that it was WRONG for them to have close friends! I’m not a very social person, and even I have a few close friends!

    I guess I really shouldn’t be surprised by this whole thing. It sounds exactly like the rest of the nonsense you get from these people–infantilizing women (because then it’s easier to excuse men taking control of them) and the whole nine yards. Ugh.

    1. Interesting idea — yes, definitely makes one wonder. If the eyes are “the windows of the soul” (as I’ve heard), her soul seems to be hurting.

  4. Watching her has brought so many repressed memories and emotions to the surface. I can still remember telling my husband who was a deacon,”I just can’t be like those women.” He always told me that I didn’t have to be, but there was always that subtle pressure from the church leadership and other women to “walk the walk.” (Not my husband, he was always balanced and understanding.)

    Argh! What a reminder as to why we got out and will NEVER go back.!

  5. I’m sad cause I didn’t know about this earlier. We could have found some drag queens to crash the event and show them what some real girlfriends do in private.

    1. This is the funniest thing I have read all day!!!

      I was thinking they need a visit from Vida, Chi-Chi and Noxeema from “To Wong Foo Thanks for Everything”. They are the best girlfriends EVER! :mrgreen:

  6. Watching her has brought so many repressed memories and emotions to the surface. I can still remember telling my husband who was a deacon,”I just can’t be like those women.” He always told me that I didn’t have to be, but there was always that subtle pressure from the church leadership and other women to “walk the walk.” (Not my husband, he was always balanced and understanding.)

    I hated these “ladies” gatherings. Attending showers and teas was like having my teeth pulled without anesthetic. Misery. Nothing against showers and teas, just the fundy variety. It was just one more day that I would have to put on the fundy uniform and the fundy fake smile. Argh! What a reminder as to why we got out and will NEVER go back!

    1. My fundy mom goes to a fundy church because she believes their views of separation are biblical, but she has a bit of spunk and doesn’t always follow the leader. Her church recently had a “ladies’ tea”, and each small group decorated their own tables and brought their own food. My mom’s table did a picnic theme with paper plates, plastic cups, and picnic food, while all the other tables had fine china, silver, fancy teas, and not much to eat. Mom had a blast, but the lady who headed the tea up was appalled and said that they will have to change the format in the future to make sure everyone has the same food and decorations.

      My former fundy church had an entire silver closet, and we were expected to use the silver for all church functions, baby showers, etc. to make the old southern women feel “at home.”

    2. That’s exactly how I feel about these tea parties. I had a friend who went to a victorian themed one. If I just had to be there, I couldn’t just conform, I’d put together some really awesome steampunk outfit together just to have fun with all the shock ๐Ÿ˜ˆ My head would explode otherwise.

      1. I’ve always been in smaller churches (and non-HAC ones) so we’ve done a lot of tea-party stuff. If the women were warm and accepting (not cold and snobby) and there for fun instead of one-ups-manship, I would LOVE doing a lady-like tea party with hats, or a Victorian one, or a steam-punk one! ๐Ÿ™‚ I love dressing up and I love planning fun events that transcend the ordinary.

        1. Argh!! I meant to say that I HAVEN’T done lots of tea-party-like events. I thought I’d been flying under the radar with George, but apparantly he found me.

        2. The ladies in my church did an English Tea Party theme for the bridal shower they gave me. My new hubby and I were to be moving to England soon after the wedding. It was a good idea and I appreciated the thought. Now that I am here in the UK and have had a proper English tea, I can’t wait to get back and do ’em up right. Here at our base chapel the ladies refuse to do “tea-themed” events.

    1. did you see the one in the related videos sideline?

      It’s called “Biblical Barbie”
      http://youtu.be/FiGdWSZ-Rf8

      What’s that all about? No IFB would allow “barbie” or any of there female possessions to dress like the doll in this clip!!! ๐Ÿ™„ โ“

      Actually, I’m curious about the book that is being promoted. Not quite sure on its intention… is it FOR or AGAINST robot-style Stepford-like cloning of women?

      Just though I’d add this for interest, as I’m still feeling quite ill over the whole “Christian Womanhood” thing! ๐Ÿ˜ฎ ๐Ÿ˜ฏ :mrgreen:

        1. You’re probably right. I thought it was funny too. Just wondering where they were headed with it.

          And sorry for the typos above. “there” should be “their” and “though” should be “thought”

          Also by “female possessions” I mean the wives and daughters in a fundy man’s life…. as if the man owned them, like cattle, slaves, or other possessions.

    2. Yeah, that one with the bird was really twisted!

      I just ran into a bird with my car. Thank you God for using that to show how much you love me. (Bird gets hit because he flew away from the will of God.)

      1. Oh, was that the point?
        It didn’t make sense that a bird almost getting snuffed was a sign of how much God loves the driver, but I guess I’ve stopped expecting Fundy videos to be coherent.

  7. I was taught that one of the reasons women shouldn’t wear pants is that the V shape draws men’s eyes toward the crotch area. In the freeze-frame on this video Mrs. S is wearing a top with a V shape that draws the eyes toward another “area”. How is that different?

  8. “thinking about how โ€œcelebrating girlfriendsโ€ takes on a whole knew meaning when you think of it in the context of Jack Hyles.”

    Ok, people. Where have I been? I googled Jack Hyles and “affair” and read about his mistress. I had not heard that before. How devastating to the other people affected.

    This lady must bear some deep scars; I actually feel sorry for her. But not enough to overlook her perpetuating emotional/spiritual abuse to other women.

  9. waa! Please Darrell I beg you stop with CW posts..Death by twitching…
    This is all TOO much.
    Five years of working these conferences…
    …you have NO idea.
    If you don’t hear from me please send out the guys with the white jackets..

        1. Mix up a big cooler of Hunch Punch, Big Gary. Tastes exactly like Hawaiian Punch, but has wonderful effects. Give her a couple cups of the that and let the good times roll.

    1. I was wondering when I’d see you friend! I even read your book (about money saving tips), who knew you would become one of my friends on Survivor – IFB! ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

      One semester, one couples picnic, one ‘Girlfriends of Hylander Wives meeting , and one CWSp was enough for me. ‘puke’…. Never again, never again, never again, never again, and did I mention…NEVER AGAIN! โ— โ— โ— โ—

  10. This may be a dumb question, but I’ve been out of the Fundy loop for a long time. Does HAC or the church there acknowledge that Hyles had a woman/women on the side? Do they attmept to explain it at all, or is just not talked about? I heard something about him being confronted at the BJU Bible Conference, and kind of shown the door because they knew what he was doing. I went to BJ, so I’m not familiar with much about Hyles culture. Heard him speak at my church when I was very young. Just remember him screaming a story about being in the Navy, and somebody trying to get him to touch (not smoke) a cigarette. The offer supposedly went up to $500, and I think he ended it with something about him jumping up and down smashing the cigarette.

    1. AG; no, FBCH (First Baptist Church – Hammond) never admitted that Jack Hyles did anything wrong. He is still their idol and idolized by many of his followers around the country.

      I believe that BJU split from him when they insisted that he clear himself of the charges before he speak at BJU again — I don’t think he was confronted at any BJU conference.

      1. In a fundamental church, it’s very dangerous for the pastor’s wife to get too close to another woman. They may share secrets, and the girlfriend may tell her husband, and he may tell a deacon, and the deacon will tell his wife, and she’ll tell the pianist, who will then tell her husband, and before you know it, the whole congregation knows that the pastor is a bad lover!

      2. In the IFB world, perception is reality: the appearance of perfect godliness must be preserved at all times. Thus it is hard to have close friends, because that demands authenticity. They’re also huge on hierarchy and often consider pastors (and their wives) as holier than “regular Joe” Christians, so any friendship with a congregation member would be between a “superior” and an “inferior”.

        That’s the extreme, though. The reality is that some people get jealous and upset if the pastor’s wife spends more time with certain people, so in order to keep the peace, pastors’ wives are often encouraged NOT to get close to any specific people in the church but to keep everyone at the same level of intimacy. Also friends often chit-chat about their home lives and their frustrations with their job; that means for a pastor’s wife, she’d be talking about the pastor and the church. It’s just not always wise to share how you REALLY feel with people; they CAN use it against you later. So whether it’s out of pride or out of wisdom, pastors and their wives are usually encouraged not to have special friends from within their congregation.

        (My husband has changed our church, BTW, to encourage authenticity and transparency, to build relationships in small groups, and to equip ALL the saints for ministry so while I’ve heard the above advice, I don’t follow it beyond the limits of what any Christian would do – to be wise about what you say and to whom.)

        1. I noticed that right after I was saved and going to Bible college. The visiting preachers would sit at separate tables and if you tried to strike up a converstation with them they would give you that “why do you think it is ok to be talking to me” look.

          Looking back, I guess I wasn’t missing anything anyway…

        2. It’s so sad that some pastors have this attitude when Jesus clearly told us that leaders must serve and be humble.

          Also I think this attitude causes a lot of the WRONG men to enter the ministry: they’re not really suited to be pastors but they want to be because of the prestige and power and elevated position with which some churches regard pastors.

  11. After Glow, to answer your question. No. I grew up there, I was there when that whole thing blew wide open and just left that church in the last couple years (I know, what took me so long?). Anyhow, I clearly remember either at Hyles’ funeral or in a sermon shortly after, Schaap telling about how he and the family cleaned out his FIL’s office and made a big deal about how there were no “surprises” or any evidence of there having ever been a double life or dishonesty or immorality of any kind. So in fundy logic, because they didn’t discover any evidence more than a decade or two later it never really happened after all. Ok, someone pass the Pepto, I’m gonna be sick

  12. Honestly, she looks like she is on the verge of tears…like a shell that will blow away in the slightest wind. I would not be surprised in the least if she is barely surviving…sobbing in the dark with suicidal thoughts because she is sure of just how worthless she really is. I would NOT AT ALL be surprised if he is more than just emotionally and psycologically abusive at home…just based on what I’ve seen of him on You Tube. This video broke my heart. This is one depressed, beaten down women…and she doesn’t even know just how bad it really is. I can hardly stand it.

    1. It’s the only life she knows. Imagine how afraid she must be of the real world. Her fear must be a thousand times worse than ours while we were in the IFB, which was bad enough. Speaking for myself, at least I experienced normalcy as a child before going fundy in my late teens. Having been out for a long time, I shudder to think about the lies these people still live by. The oppression, the fear, the DELUSION.

  13. Thank you for the insight Ex-Koolaid. I haven’t been to a lot of funerals for pastors, but I don’t imagine that very many of them include reassurance that when they cleaned out the office, there were no “suprises”. An odd thing to say at a funeral. So obviously they know that he was messing around, and they wanted to squash it all. I’ve heard one or two of his sons been charged with rape, or something along those lines. I’m sure that’s not talked about much either. Not enough time in the day, once they’ve covered the important stuff, like women knowing their place, women needing to sit down and shut up, women not getting fat, etc.

    1. I’ve been to numerous funerals for pastors (my Dad being a minister with lots of friends in the ministry), and you are correct that denying reports of wrongdoing by the deceased was not a part of the program at any of them I’ve been to. That’s very extraordinary. It’s also odd that Jack Schaap seems to have implied that the fact that Hyles didn’t die with his office full of evidence of his infidelities proved that they never happened. As the proverb goes, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

  14. So, she needs a haircut, and some can tell that she’s miserable, on the verge of tears and possibly suicidal by looking at her eyes?

    Fascinating, captain.

  15. Beyond all the subtleties in her mannerisms, which I mostly missed because I couldn’t stop looking at her horrendous hair, I couldn’t stand watching the whole thing because that weird floating pseudo-stained glass graphic on the left side was making me sick to my stomach. It’s like someone just discovered the transition options in Microsoft Movie Maker and couldn’t get enough.

  16. Well I think her hair looked real nice. All in all she is a good looking woman. Opinion coming from an older guy that is. Maybe I just have no discernment?

  17. To After Glow: (sorry folks I am new here and have no clue how to reply in the appropriate spot), just to clarify Jack Hyles only has one son, the rest of his children are girls (3 of them). I was not aware he had been charged w/rape – if so, this must be a recent development and it is about time! Can anyone verify this for us? Tales of his insatiable lust and plundering the girls of the youth department back in the day are still legendary (and a bit before my time). I have talked to folks though who knew it was going on, and I have often wondered if he would ever be brought to justice on this earth.

    1. She was pretty cute in college though. A LOT of guys wanted to date her, but Jack was the lucky one. All the Hyles girls looked so sad and serious all the time. She never ever smiled. Here at least she is trying to look happy.

    2. I think she’s a good-looking woman, although her hairdo isn’t doing her any favors.
      But I don’t think it matters. I’m concerned with what she says, writes and does, not how she looks.

  18. ummm…. I think you are getting your “Jacks” mixed up. In the video is Jack Schaap’s wife – and to my knowledge there has been no cheating. The other Jack is Hyles, who is Schaap’s father in law and is now deceased, and yes, he did cheat on his wife, and no, she was not homely, IMHO.

  19. I know which one im talking about. She is homely IMO. And I beg to differ with the cheating! I have a close , person al friend who went to Hyles and was propositioned by Jack S several times.

  20. Ok, sorry, didn’t mean to offend. And I wouldn’t be too surprised about your claim. He has always struck me as being a bit flirtatious. I just had never heard any specific accusations while there or since leaving.

  21. I may get some hate on this, but I think our case against fundamentalism is strong on all levels. We who critique the movement have both the intellectual and Scriptural edge.

    I say that because I believe that it somewhat dilutes our solid arguments when we resort to nit-picky personal attacks on things like hairstyle as opposed to obvious errors like KJV-onlyism, un-missional separation, dispensationalism, hero worship, Christ-less “worship” services, authoritarian leadership, abuse, oppression, fake PhD’s, unaccredited colleges, misuse of Scripture, lack of scholarship, etc.

    Just one opinion. ๐Ÿ™‚

    I still love my fellow SFL commentors, I just disagree with today’s tone (not to say I haven’t done my fair share of ad homenim attacks – and probably shouldn’t have).

    1. I agree to an extent, PS. What makes style criticisms valid to me, though is this: the generally accepted style for fundy women to emulate is this mid-to-late eighties, non-chic hairstyles and just over the edge of frumpy clothing–what does this say about the view of women? It’s not difficult to be modest and also chic. I see conservative Muslim women do this all the time. They cover their arms, wear high necked tops, show no cleavage (granted, they often wear pants, a fundy Christian no-no), and yet manage to wear relevant and timely styles that don’t make them look like a schoolmarm. It seems to me that the denigration (albeit passive and subtle) of timely fashion in both clothes and hairstyle is part of the way that fundy women are second-placed. And when conservative Muslim women are wearing trendier, more attractive outfits than fundy women, I think that’s saying something significant about the way fundamentalism views women. Of course, conservative Muslim women often work outside of the home, so there’s that, too. (Not that I’m talking about the typical conservative Muslim woman, not the extremely conservative segment who wear the niqab. I am surprised at times that some extreme fundies don’t adopt something similar….)

      1. Fundies believe “come out from among them and be ye separate” means they cannot be part of popular culture. Thus to them anything popular or trendy must be worldly and thus evil. That’s why both clothing and music styles in the fundy world often lag about 20 years behind the rest of culture. By the time culture has moved on to something else, then fundies find it’s OK for them to adopt those things. Of course, it’s interesting that their desire to avoid worldliness doesn’t usually mean that they drive unpopular cars! ๐Ÿ™‚

  22. “I’m the wife of Pastor Jack Schaap …”

    (1) It’s irrelevant to this video whose spouse you are.
    (2) You’re “the wife of … Jack”? Not “Jack is my husband”. Is there *any* way that this can be interpreted that she doesn’t get her self-definition from who her husband is?

  23. She has that strident fundy woman look. All the ladies at my ex IFB look like this. Tight, worn out, like the liquids have been sucked out of them and all that’s left is skin, skull and a forced smile. Sad to watch this.

  24. Okay, new rule: your postings must now come with a drink warning. Some forums have trigger warnings; you need at least three different drink warnings. For some, you will need a keyboard/drink warning, which says do not take a big gulp of anything before reading/viewing this or you might find your keyboard awash. The other warning is the minimum drink warning. This is a two-drink minimum posting. Seriously, I need at least two drinks before this makes me not want to bang my head on a desk until unconsciousness is achieved. And third, we may need a cocoa warning- in other words, do not read this unless you have a comforting beverage nearby. NPS rangers swear that all shock can be cured with cocoa, so I’ll take them at their word.

    To sum it up: you need a drink/keyboard warning; a minimum drink warning; and comforting drink warning.

    Thank you ๐Ÿ˜›

  25. I got tired of looking at her and started reading the comments as I listened. Beth mentioned her eyes are sadder than her face lets on…I think her voice is downright depressing if you don’t see the forced smile. That is the voice of a defeated human being playing her part with zero enthusiasm.

  26. “As usual our conference is going to be upbeat, positive, Bible-based and Christ-honoring.”

    As opposed to those liberal conferences that have syncopated downbeats, and are negative, emotion-based, and full of debauchery?????

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