151 thoughts on “The NIV Quiz”

      1. This is an honor, as I’m fairly new here. Although I’ve been “out” a little over ten years (was in for 40) still watching over my shoulder. My fastness could be attributed to participating in, and being pretty good at, sword drills. Even as an adult, I felt a sense of pride when the MOG announced the scripture for his sermon and, after I’d quickly found the chapter/verses, still heard others still searching through their Bibles. Still don’t understand how I didn’t realize that the “not of works/by their works” religion I thought I was following was not that at all. {feeling shame}

        1. I was good at sword drills too (and proud of myself for that too).

          I’m thankful that God is near to those who have a humble heart because seeing how I used to be has certainly humbled me.

  1. I loved the NIV when it first came out 30+ years ago, and I still love it. The guy’s quiz doesn’t prove anything except that some verses are rendered differently in the NIV than in the KJV. Although perfectly able to understand the KJV I was raised on, it was so refreshing to sit down with a text that was well-written and extremely readable. it was also easy to use with children and people who found the KJV too difficult. My church now uses the ESV, but I still use my NIV for my own reading.

  2. Wow, it’s like a litmus test for making sure that you filter out anyone who understands anything about ancient texts/languages or translation issues.

    1. Sometimes it is.

      I remember reading an essay on women in preaching that amounted to “More women than men will reference the Greek or Hebrew from the pulpit and therefore women are not to be trusted with the preaching of God’s Word.

      1. Anyone who would not trust the KJV but take you back to the original language cannot be trusted….they may actually be seeking to be the true Gospel instead of the fundy gospel….dangerous territory there.

  3. Yes, it is far better that people have more words that they can’t quite understand in the KJV1611 vs. having a Bible with some words left out but they can understand the rest of the words………. um, no.

  4. Yup, different is always wrong.

    So I had taken my bride home to Washington State on our honeymoon. We had married in North Carolina just after my sophomore year at BJU. My wife gave me a NASV as a wedding gift.

    My mother and older sister had only met my bride the day of our wedding. My father and younger sister couldn’t attend. So we decided to honeymoon at my home there while I worked at an old job for the last time.

    Big mistake. Big. BIG. But I couldn’t have understood. I was still a fundy. BJU had cured me of being KJV-only. I understand now that losing my KJV-only ‘faith’ made BJU into a raving liberal institution in my parents’ eyes.

    So my sister sees me with the NASV one morning, asks what it is, and her first comment is “Heretic!” I ask why, and she goes to get Jasper James Ray’s “God Wrote Only One Bible” book and assorted pamphlets. She says the NASV is full of omissions and that made my Bible a Perversion, not a Version.

    So I ask her to get her Bible and point out to me a verse that she thinks is perverted. I don’t remember the reference, but I asked her to read it aloud. Then (over her objections), I read the same passage in the NASV. The exact same message, no detail left out. Just worded in a more natural sounding way. No disrespect to God or to Jesus.

    I asked her what was different. She was furious. I asked again. I ask how the message was perverted. Wasn’t the Scripture about the message instead of the words?

    She ran off crying, screaming that I was trying to destroy her faith.

    My dad is ex-military, and as military his bad temper was tempered into a brutal weapon. He wouldn’t hear my explanation of what had happened. (Usual. In that house I was always at fault, no matter what. What on earth possessed me to think bringing home a wife would please them?) He did say that if I ever said a word about a Bible other than the KJV he would kill me. You know what? I believed him.

    We weren’t there very long. And although I tried my best to show my love to my family, nothing was enough. We paid for hugely expensive medicine for my mom which CHAMPUS wouldn’t cover, with not even a thank you. Finally after enduring another massively untrue round of accusations of a baseless nature from my younger sister (who never left the nest, by the way), my family cut off all communication with me. I was disowned.

    I came from a seriously screwed up home. I am convinced that there was mental and emotional illness in the family. There was psychological and physical abuse. And there was a fierce devotion to the Plymouth Brethren’s form of fundyism, with associated other heresies thrown in. (Yes, Miriam, Darby’s translation was known about, but never talked about at that assembly. It was passed off as academic. But the KJV was the Standard.)

    My kids don’t understand how good they have had it. Still, I hope they make their homes even better.

    1. I am so sorry for what you went through at the hands of people who were supposed to love you unconditionally.

      For what it’s worth, your posts always seem well thought out and compassionate. You seem to have overcome the meanness of your family.

    2. Wow. I admittedly grew up more on the fringes of fundyland, but that’s… I have no words.

      Although I do know a cluster of families that broke off from our already fundy church to form Antioch 1611 Bible Chuch. They’re genuine believers, but somehow, through some evangelist or other, they got sucked into the KJV-onlyism as a form of “higher devotion”. It’s sad. They’re good people. Their KJV-only stance made them into angry, divisive people.

    3. rtgmath, I am so terribly sorry for what you went through. I would have taken your father at his word too. When my brother stopped going to “meeting” as they called it, things got so tense in the house, culminating in a fist fight between them which my brother ran away from because he knew whatever the outcome, my mother would be the real one hurt. He left and only came back when my dad was old and unable to look after things. My father made it very clear that his only son was not in his will because he had left “the place.” I hate the PB church. I know there are some who are less rabid than the ones we experienced but I think that their “one place” mentality has been proved over and over to be extremely dangerous. There is no room in their lives for anyone who does not agree with them in every particular. The basis of that church is not love but separation and that is what they do best, separate. They are cruel and heartless in their pursuit of it. I have been shunned by most of my family because I “went to law against a brother” Never mind that he was a child molester, their own children and family members were his victims. They coddle and care for him but have shunned me. That is what the PBs do.

        1. Thank you, Ben. Peace has been a long time coming but it is coming. SFL has been part of that process.

        1. Yikes! I’m sorry; families aren’t supposed to be like that. Your children are lucky to have you.

    4. Dear rtgmath…

      Just two points this time.

      First regarding your sister: anger/injury frequently result when your points are making sense. But you know this.

      Second, and regarding dad: Dads do cross the line and ought to be set straight when they do. The problem is, dads can essentially disown us. The thing is–flawed as they are, these are the only dads we will ever have. Of course you know this also. But one must ask if the loss is worth it. That’s the only reason I didn’t call my dad on the dad-crap.

      Blessings.

      Christian Socialist

      PS: an arm reaches out across rtgmath’s shoulders…

      1. Having come from a family with a very physically abusive and violent father, I learned as a young adult that I didn’t need to receive it any more. It took a while for me to learn to set boundaries, but after I left a few family gatherings because my dad cursed out my step-mom or threw something at the wall, he realized that I wouldn’t put up with his behavior anymore. He is actually a better, much older, person now, and we have a fairly decent relationship. I never totally broke off communication, but there was a basic standard that had to be maintained.

        1. There may be two upcoming trips to South Bend, one for a performance of Shakespeare’s A WINTER’S TALE, and one for a prison theater conference.

        2. At various prisons around the US, and few prisons internationally, facilitators guide groups of inmates in the study and performance of plays, most often Shakespeare plays. There are 3-5 such faciltators in Indiana. I have been leading Shakespeare at Pendleton, a group at the Pendleton Correctional Facility, a maximum security prison about 25 miles northeast of Indianapolis. We did the prison premiere of Shakespeare’s CORIOLANUS in April of this year. Notre Dame hosts an occasional conference of these facilitators.

      2. Thanks. I reached out to my mom, dad and younger sister some years after the initial disowning. My dad hung up on me and changed the number to an unlisted one.

        I honestly love my parents. But being without them was a gift to focus on my own family, which has still suffered the ravages of fundyism present and past. If I’d been under the constant stress of my parents and younger sister, my family would have fared worse.

        And maybe I am at a place where things are about to get a lot better. After being unemployed for a year, I now have a job and I requires a move. I have to go in advance of my wife and daughter. The plan is for them to follow in about 2-3 months.

        My wife’s grandfather was a fundamentalist evangelist, and anything that pulls away from fundamentalism is felt as a betrayal. She knows better. She just can’t feel differently. The further I have moved from fundamentalism, the more the friction. And since my perspective has changed and hers hasn’t so much, it causes a lot of stress, and the blame for the stress falls on me. I am reminded of tectonic plates. Movement of the San Juan de Fuca plate under the North American plate caused Mt. Saint Helens.

        The upcoming move may make a difference. I have hope for it, but we will have to see. She will be in a more liberal church environment. We will go to my son’s church, an Episcopal Chuch in South Bend, Indiana. My daughter will be coming too. Maybe, just maybe this move will be the best thing.

        Thanks for listening to me chatter.

        1. Truly hope that this is what your family needs and that you will all be happy. Congratulations on the job, too!

        2. I visited the area for a few days to interview, and I am glad I landed the job!

          I have been in a rural setting for 22 years and always had to travel far to go anywhere significant. Now cultural treasures will be close at hand.

          I will also be able to work at tutoring on the side. With five colleges and universities in the area, there should be people needing help with math.

          So I am grateful for the opportunity. If any of you are in the general area, let me know. I like to meet you!

        3. My comment went in the wrong place: There may be two upcoming trips to South Bend, one for a performance of Shakespeare’s A WINTER’S TALE, and one for a prison theater conference.

        4. Congrats on the new job.

          I’m in the far western suburbs of Chicago – keep me in the loop if anyone ever meets up!

        5. I appreciate your chatter, rtgmath.

          You wrote: “The further I have moved from fundamentalism, the more the friction. And since my perspective has changed and hers hasn’t so much, it causes a lot of stress, and the blame for the stress falls on me. ”

          I sense this to a large degree in my own life. Though I could never return, I wonder if it would just be easier to do so. You know, kind of like the prisoner who finally gets out of jail, but finds freedom stressful and overloading on the senses.

          B.R.1

        6. Would it be easier? Well, you have to live with yourself. So I don’t think it would be easier. We may find ourself at a loss of what to do without our chains, but discarding the chains allows us to finally do things!

        7. Dear rgtmath:

          245 miles; awaiting your fishing reports from the banks of the Saint Joseph River…

          Christian Socialist

        8. rtgmath:
          Congratulations on the new job! I am so glad this will enable your family to leave that Fundy church for a healthier church environment. Praying for things to get much better for you and your family.

      3. My dad is a kind, reasonable person most of the time, but he recently crossed the line into meddling again, and I finally put my foot down and said that I had to make my own decisions and while I respected his opinion and knew it came from a place of love, he needed to butt out. He did. Our relationship is better for it.

    5. Good grief. I’m glad you came out of all that with your sanity. I’m amazed and disturbed at how willfully small, deprived and cramped peoples’ worlds can be, tragic for them and especially for those who try to love them. Good for you for keeping your balance and showing compassion for your mother in the way you did, respecting her humanity in the face of evil in the guise of self-righteousness. I find your story inspiring, thank you for sharing!

    6. Ha. Stuck in a fundy home right now. One night 3 months ago, my mom walked in on me reading an ESV a Bible club at my school gave me. Kicked me out, but we reconciled and I moved back in.

      Now, I work at a Southern Baptist Church (He must be demon possessed!) and am looking to join it, while just last week truly making Jesus Lord of my life, and not the legalistic-works-based-pray-this-prayer salvation my parents buy into.

      Jesus doesn’t need your acceptance. Jesus wants your unconditional surrender.

      1. I “got saved” when I was 16. 42 years later, I have different viewpoints.

        First, I don’t see salvation as “absolute surrender,” any more. In Galatians, Paul was talking to a church that had actually “surrendered” to the wrong ideas. They weren’t taking risks. They were children.

        Paul referred to the Law as a Schoolmaster. You know about schoolmasters. They aren’t always right. You obey them because you have to. They generally teach you the rules. But they don’t necessarily teach you wisdom, or how to handle unknown situations.

        And when you leave school and leave your parents’ house, you are suddenly faced with having to make decisions for yourself. You have to find an adult perspective. You don’t run back to the schoolmaster to see if what you think is okay. You don’t go back to your parents’ house all the time either. You don’t base every decision on whether or not you are afraid of your dad’s anger.

        No, you take your home training and schooling and your other learning and you try to make good decisions. You think like a grown up. You put away childish things! Other nitty gritty stuffies fade into insignificance. As Paul said in I Cor. 13, “and now there remains these three, faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love.”

        The hardest thing Christians have to do is move toward a grown-up faith, recognizing that all the answers are not in the Bible, and that the Bible is not a set of shackles on our thinking or circumstances.

        I applaud you for making peace with your parents. Keep the peace as best as you can. But even if you have to do it quietly, keep an open mind and an open heart. Sometimes God speaks through rebels, too.

        1. i can relate to a lot of this. and a lot of it i can’t.

          not being able to leave my parent’s house due to financial debt and low income…not being able to afford adequate housing anywhere…not leaving for school…willfully giving up my adulthood multiple times in order to be righteous and godly and “kill my flesh” and to be a good christian…always living in fear of what others think and what’s right and what’s true…

          yeah. i can relate a lot, but not fully. life is turning around, but i’m still stuck here for some time more.

          it feels like i gave up my 20s. there’s an entire decade of my life that i’m missing. i turned 30 in april, and i’m starting to rediscover the person i was when I turned 20. same hobbies, same interests, same thoughts…all slowly coming back, as if they had been repressed deeply a long time ago. it feels like i’m resuming where i left off…but now i’m ten years older.

          will god restore those years? will i ever recover them? idk. not yet. but i know i’m in a better place now than i’ve ever been, i feel physically 5 years younger, i’m taking charge of my life, making drastic and dramatic changes…and reaping all the consequences, both good and bad.

          adulthood. a grown-up faith. i’m learning about it, slowly.

    7. One question: what’s the weather like between NC and Washington State? I live in MN, absolutely hate humidity with an undying passion, but my career and life desires may lead me to either Seattle or GA or Raleigh.

      Will I survive? lol

      1. Raleigh is nice and well-balanced. It is one of the greenest cities in the South, with lots of trees.

        Seattle has a lot of rain, but it doesn’t get too cold or too hot. I’d love to live there.

        Georgia? No thank you. Savannah, maybe, but not Atlanta. Concrete jungle!

  5. So they train people to translate the KJV into languages that they … studied for a semester or two?

    “The basic ministry of BBTI is to train missionaries in linguistics. This prepares them to hear any sound made by the human voice. It enables them to say that sound just like a native speaker ”

    I call BS

    1. Why? Learn how to be able to teach yourself how to speak isiXhosa, lol Hmongb orTłı̨chǫ Yatıı̀ like a native in mere days! Just don’t try this trick with Polish. Szczerze odradzam. Mówię tym językiem od najwcześniejszej młodości i nadal nie mogępowiedzieć, bym osiągnął mistrzostwo w używaniu polszczyzny…

  6. I almost broke up with my now-husband over this issue. He used a NIV/KJV parallel bible and my parents explained that he had to be convinced that the KJV was superior or I’d have to break up with him. The sad thing is, I probably would’ve done it. I used things like this quiz to try to convince him of my position.

    1. In many, if not most, university level linguistics programs, students are required to take 2 foreign languages on top of their linguistic studies.

      So I am calling BS on their 9 month plan.

      “The basic ministry of BBTI is to train missionaries in linguistics. This prepares them to hear any sound made by the human voice. It enables them to say that sound just like a native speaker ”

      Pronouncing syllables means little when it comes to translation (other than for poetry). They are not sounding out Scripture, but determining meaning and proper translation.

      What does the word actually mean?
      How are the verbs properly conjugated?
      How do the nouns decline?
      What is the sentence structure like? Is it different if it has a subordinating conjunction than if it has a coordinating conjunction?
      Are idioms and puns being identified?

      What a huge disservice BBTI is providing its students and those who receive the horrible product of their misguided work.

      1. My daughter is enrolled in an actual university linguistics program. She is already bilingual and she is taking three more languages as well as being required to take anthropology classes. Somehow I doubt anthropology is an acceptable subject at this ”school”

        1. I should become bilingual, but it often seems enough of a challenge just to stay bipedal.

        2. I would love to be fluent in a second language, but there is just no realistic reason for me to do so. I would need to have a daily purpose and using that language.

        3. My MIL was French Canadian and many of her family never spoke English, so communication was an incentive. The government here also offers French Immersion education and I saw no reason not to take advantage of that for my kids. They were fortunate to have it.

      2. You are right. It is a horrible disservice in many ways.

        Fundamentalism is fundamentally anti-knowledge. There is no real higher education. There is no subtlety, no nuance, no mastery. Every idiot with an opinion is the equal of a lifelong scholar. Every denial the master over mountains of evidence.

        So it makes sense that how a word sounds is to them more important than its meaning, and pidgin talk better than fluency or syntactic accuracy.

        “Christian” so-called “colleges” are closing due to this kind of mindset.

        I don’t know how BJU is now, but back in the day it was good enough that even without accreditation its students were admitted to other universities for graduate work. I went from BJU to Clemson’s math department. I knew a prelaw student who went to Harvard’s Law School.

        But schools like Northland and Pensacola were pretty much a joke. The basic babble school format like Ambassador Christian College was worse than a joke. There was no scholarship.

        1. This was shy I gave up on Christian “higher” education, and went straight to university, which did not sit well with some folks in my Fundy church. I did get theological education later on, from a reputable, accredited institution of higher learning.

        2. Congratulations on the new job! I admire anyone who can teach math as it was never my best subject.

        3. I went to our local state university because I had a scholarship and my folks couldn’t begin to afford the exorbitant tuition at any of the array of Bible colleges the other kids at church attended. I was chastised indirectly from the pulpit regularly even though there was a missionary home on furlough taking advantage of a gov’t grant for her to attend grad school in the nursing program there. I lived with my folks at the time, they were supportive of me. Funny, I didn’t miss church a single time the whole four years except once when I had to take a chemistry test on a Wednesday night and missed prayer meeting . The pastor’s wife didn’t pass up her change to get in her digs. I can’t believe my folks put up with that but Dad wouldn’t leave because, naturally, he believed that no other churches in town were right on all the fine points of doctrine. I don’t miss that malarkey at all.

        4. It has been said of the PBs and it could apply to a lot of IFB churches too, that they “major in the minors.”

        5. Rtgmath. Mathematics was never my strong subject. I remember getting 4% in a math test once. If I had been in your class, I would have been a real challenge for you. Actually the only thing I was interested in at school was science, the rest I could leave. Mathematics was definitely one of my weaker subjects. However, there are a lot of numbers in science so I have, over the years, at least learned how to count!

        6. Paul, just because you have had trouble with math doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with you. You could have learned it if you’d had the teachers you needed.

          Bad teachers are something like the fundamentalism we all have been irradiated with. We get held back when we have a teacher that doesn’t help meet our needs. It is the rare individual who can break free and think clearly from a muddled environment with no help.

          Yesterday a lady saw me and stopped to chat. She was the mother of a former student of mine. That student has decided to become a teacher herself, and she told her mother that I was one of her role models. The mom talked for several minutes about her daughter’s horror at how some teachers were “teaching” (actually, Not Teaching!) and about how she had learned so well under me.

          Paul, your math teachers very likely got irritated when you asked “why?” in math class. “Just because” or “this is how you do it” or “you have to memorize this bunch of useless facts” is often the way teachers attempt to communicate information. Whenever I ask a class if their other math teachers had ever told them “just because” when they asked a why question, nearly the whole class raises their hand!

          Me? As you can tell from the way I write about anything and everything, “Why?” is my absolute favorite question. And I answer it, too! “Why?” is context. “Why?” gives a reason. It explains. It isn’t an angry, arbitrary god who just decided that’s the way it has got to be. God didn’t give Moses the 10 laws of mathematics on tables of stone. People discovered them. They are derived from the world around us. They work. They are infused into everything in our world and our lives are enriched if we are aware of their presence.

          I don’t teach rules. I help students explore. They create rules from what they learn, and the rules are the right ones, even if they are expressed a bit differently from the ones in the books.

          I have taken students who were absolutely terrified of math and enabled them to succeed. And I did it because I knew they were capable of learning so much more than they thought they could.

          I substituted at a local middle school a while back. It was the last required day of attendance. Report cards and grades were all handed out. The teacher had left some work sheets the students saw as busy work. They were prepared for another dull class doing something meaningless.

          I called roll. I handed out the work and said we were going to do it together. That raised some eyebrows! So I put up the first problem on the board and asked the class for help. What do I do first? Why? Explain what you are doing! Before long the whole class was actively engaged and excited — over work that wasn’t going to get a grade! They said their teacher had taught them something much harder. I told them that if there was an easier way to do something, they should use the easy way to do it!

          During the planning period another teacher walked into the room. She said, “I want you to know the students from your last class are all talking about how great the class was and that they wish you were their teacher!”

          I think I am going to have a great year. I am a teacher. I can teach anyone who is willing to learn.

        7. I stick with the slogan one of my math teachers repeated over & over: “Math is fun”. Some of the other students still do this day object but I think he was dead on!

        8. Rtgmath, I taught my little students that “math is for lazy people — it’s all about finding the easiest way to solve a problem”. They ate that idea right up!

          I was a terrible math student in elementary school. Consequently, I am an excellent math teacher. It’s all about the “why”, isn’t it?

  7. The first time my husband showed up with a Bible in hand, thrilled to be there, expecting to be accepted with open arms, he got a lecture on using a Catholic Bible. Poor guy, he didn’t even know there were other versions. From this fact, which he innocently admitted, my sister determined that he would date me and “dump me back on my parents doorstep pregnant.” He hadn’t read the real Bible, he couldn’t possibly really be “saved” and he had ulterior motives in “trying to get us to trust him.” I think KJVonlyists, (and rtg they admitted the Darby translation but said they were only using it to enhance the KJV, whatever that means) I think they worship the translation, not even the Book, let alone the God it speaks of.

  8. Oh no! I don’t know Pilate’s first name! My faith is shattered! Might as well go all the way left and read The Message. And vote democrat. And wear pants.

    1. Thou hast convinced me to return to thy holy book. Wilt thou forgivest me for straying? I knowest not why I did desire to seek out a version I could actually understand.

  9. As always, the problem with these sort of quizzes is that the KJV is assumed to be the authoritative text and any variation is tantamount to changing God’s Word. Nary a mention of when the KJV diverges from the original languages but then again, it’s the Jacobean English and the interpretation thereof that matters, not the intent of the original authors.

    1. Good point, Lost Highway. I’m not sure why the KJV has been given the authority that it has been given. It’s not even the first English translation. It is “A” translation not “THE” translation. I don’t know, maybe in 400+ more years the KJV onlyists will be NIV onlyists, who knows.

      1. Until a year or so ago, I had never heard of KJV Onlyism. I was certainly aware that many people preferred the KJV to more modern translations but I generally chalked it up to tradition. The idea that any translation could be venerated as the exact words of God was an alien concept to me because it is a completely ahistorical position to take and cannot be logically defended. More than anything else, I’m struck at how KJV Onlyists completely miss the irony implicit in the fact that the version they worship as the “perfect and pure words of God” was produced by people that they would dismiss under other circumstances as heretics. Just imagine if the Greek textual base of the NIV was based on the work of a Roman Catholic priest who cribbed a number of passages straight from the Latin Vulgate. Then imagine if the NIV Translation Committee was composed entirely of “baby sprinklers” who believed in works-based salvation and who prayed to Saints. Finally, imagine that the head of a foreign government ordered the translation of the NIV, made specific demands as to how certain words were translated and then forbade the publishing of any other translation in his realm. It won’t ever happen but I just want to see some consistency from the KJV Only crowd. We have such an abundance of fine translations available to us that we would be fools to restrict ourselves to an arbitrary standard that cannot be supported historically.

        1. I grew up KJV-only, but I never knew much about how it was translated. When I got older I figured out why: because the truth was unpalatable! They didn’t want to think about the origins of their precious translation. Which to me is ridiculous: if you worship the God Who is the Truth, Who is Light, how can you hide from truth? Even if those truths might challenge some of your most tightly held doctrines.

    2. In any conflict of ideas or philosophies, the unproven presuppositions are where the real action is.

      When you find people (both religious and non-religious btw) who don’t think they have assumed presuppositions, its best to just walk away, no profitable discussion can be had with those types of people.

    3. This is exactly the problem with KJV Onlyism. The assumption that the KJV is the standard and any deviation is either adding to or taking away from the word of God. I was listening to my pastor teach about the KJV vs the NIV one day and he made the statement that “alway”(kjv) and “always”(niv) were different. That started my decent from KJV Onlyism.

        1. I really don’t understand, was that person saying that because the KJV uses British spelling that you shouldn’t change it? If you change the spelling, you change the person? How ridiculous. What a horrible world they must live in.

        2. With fundamentalism, deception is always close enough to the truth to be attractive, but deadly in effect. So if you think people who are saved should be doing good works, you have to guard zealously against “works righteousness.” Of course, the best way to do that is to not do any works at all and put your faith in Christ alone and His Finished Work.

          Which rather defeats the purpose. They love Ephesians 2:8-9 but rarely mention verse 10. They despise the book of James. They discount the Sermon on the Mount as being under the “Dispensation of Law.”

          And of course, words. They are so afraid of being deceived they deceive themselves! They are sincere and fervent, but they can read Romans 10:2-4 and only see other people, but not themselves!

          “For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”

        3. Maybe Jay Croft could tell us if there are different signs for “saviour” and “savior”. I learned only one sign.

        4. MiriamD, It was probably something along the lines of changing the spelling changes the person, but even though I was still pretty deeply fundy, I thought that reason was absolutely ridiculous.

          And yes, Marty, I guess Brits and Canadians worship a different Jesus. Guess they’re doomed for Hell just like all non-IFBs(even though I know of several IFBs that believe this but preach against “Baptist Briders”), blacks, and gays.

  10. I’d like to point out to Mr Cobb that the country of Zaire was renamed late last century.

    That glaring error does nothing to abate my fears about his organization. Rather, it confirms my suspicions.

  11. I was curious about the Baptist Bible Translators Institute, so I checked.

    Nine months!

    To learn: Linguistics (language learning skills), Culture learning and adaptation, Bible Translation Principles, Literacy Training, Teaching English as a Second Language.

    I always dreamed of seven week courses on each one of those topics. Imagine: We could be translating Holy Scripture ourselves! Not depend on those flawed interpreters before us who have invested whole lifetimes of education and study.

    1. I have an M.A. in English with a concentration in English for speakers of other languages, so I have some background in linguistics. Being able to distinguish and reproduce the sounds of any language (as they claim they are teaching) is only the first tiny step in learning a language and only a fraction of what the study of linguistics actually deals with.

      1. I have been involved in bilingual education (Spanish/English) and ESL work since the early 80s. It takes years to learn a second language if one goes beyond engaging in casual conversations. For example, it takes the average ESL student seven years to learn academic English (what you need to succeed in the classroom).

  12. My trip in fundamentalism was not as hardcore as KJV only–I did have a neighbor who had a bumper sticker saying “if it was good enough for Jesus and Paul….”

    But looking back–the tenacious and rigid adherence to the fundamentals–the dogma of fundamentalism seems to have only served the purpose of defending something that most people are not arguing on a regular basis and the purpose of keeping the people of God from actually doing what they are called to do.
    Most Christians I have met could not care less which version of the Bible you want to read. Most Christians I have met do not want to sit and argue over the coming of Christ or the doctrine of free will or the myriads of other things fundamentalists want to draw the line at. And while they are defending the KJV–the poor, the sick, the imprisoned need a voice in our society where the rich flaunt their superiority and injustices seem common place.

  13. Clearly, their target is Wycliffe Bible Translators because, in the perspective of these Baptists, they ain’t doing it right. But do Rex Cobb and his “faculty” have any academic qualifications at all (something other than degrees from Patriot Bible University)?

    Again, I mention the 1611 KJV I examined recently. Its marginal annotations are filled with comments of what the original Hebrew and Greek really says. The 1611 translators did a great work, but they were well aware of its limitations. Folks like Cobb make claims for the authority of the KJV that its translators never claimed.

    1. When I first heard of Wycliffe Bible Translators and New Tribes Missions, I was so sad that we were not allowed to support them because they weren’t IFB. I was always in the more “reasonable” of the fundy camps, fundy-lite if you will, but, still, the idea of separation was paramount, no quarter given, not even for the spread of the Gospel. They were not of us so we could have nothing to do with them. It was so divisive.

      And of course when I stepped away to embrace a larger segment of Christianity, I was no longer accepted by them either. Which hurt because they were all I’d known.

  14. My sister and her husband have invested more than thirty years of their lives with Wycliffe Bible Translators. They have done good work and impacted more lives that many Fundy detractors. I get more than slightly pee’d off when someone attacks that organisation and says that Wycliffe are producing false translations of the Word of God that are misleading people straight to Hell. Can they prove that from Scripture? (Yeah, they would try. They can prove pretty much any of their prejudices from scripture as long it’s the King James. That is what fundamentalism is built upon) 🙁

  15. From BBTI’s “history”:
    “George and his wife, Sharon, left the field and enrolled in a linguistic training program with the purpose of starting a similar school for Baptists. Thus, in 1973, the Baptist Bible Translators Institute began in Ft. Worth, Texas. The following year the school was moved to its present location near Bowie, Texas.”

    So there you have their qualifications. My guess would be that they enrolled in Wycliffe’s training only to be able to start BBTI.

  16. This quiz is great! What a wonderful job it does of pointing out how, over time, so much was “added” to the word of God by those doing the work of translation, relying on inferior manuscripts. Thank God we discovered older manuscripts and developed greater scholarship so we could begin to shave away words and phrases that were either mistranslated or out and out added. This quiz does a great job of showing the superiority of the NIV.

    1. Before we begin, I have absolutely no interest in getting into a KJV v. NIV debate. That said, I think Erasmus had access to good texts, and would disagree with the contention that an older manuscript is, almost by definition, superior to a newer manuscript. Other factors, such as the number of existing manuscripts and the degree of agreement between those manuscripts could be used in helping us to determine which texts most closely resemble the original autographs. With that said, in my opinion, just one of the problems of the KJVO folks is that they have (with no scriptural justification) turned what should be a matter of evidence and logic into a doctrinal issue.

  17. “As the Bible is the final authority…” *BZZZT* I’m sorry, Rex, God is. You failed. Help yourself to a consolation prize, though, a complete list of Roman first names. To wit:
    Agr, Ap, A, K, D, F, C, Cn, H, L, Mam, M, Man, Mam, N, Non, Oct, Opet, P, Pau, Pro, Post, Q, Sept, Sert, Ser, Sex, S, St, T, Ti, Tu, V, Vol, Vop.
    Pontius was, if anything a cognomen. A nickname, if you will.

  18. Dear BBTI:

    The NT says repeatedly that Lev 19:18 offers one of the greatest commandments of all [cf. Mt 5:43-44; 19:19; 22:39; Mk 12:31 cf Ro 13:9; Gal 5:14, Ja 2:8]. Yet after referencing lofty ethical principles embodying the moral logic of justice, compassion, forgiveness and love, the very next text shifts the moral framework to prohibiting inter-species breeding, garments of two fabric types, and fields sown with more than one seed.

    Since Scripture makes no explicit distinction between moral and ceremonial law, and since Paul tends to address law in its totality [Ro 3:19, 28; 6:14; 8:4], can you discern the moral logic underpinning the Le 19:19 requirements and explain how they relate to loving our enemies?

    Christian Socialist

    PS: I’d have picked an easier question for you, but felt that I should work with what you gave us first… Have at it, BBTI!

  19. The translators of the KJV actually were superb linguists and they labored diligently for years to translate that version. KJVO supporters often point out this fact to fortify their claims of the superiority of this version over others. The problem is that these folks are taking a great translation and turning it over for re-translation to people whose main qualification is ideological purity. For the sake of illustration, Martin Luther’s translation of the New Testament is generally regarded as a masterpiece. Would the leadership of this institution trust the reliability of an English New Testament translated from Martin Luther’s translation by (probably well meaning) German speakers whose primary training was a nine month English language course? Isn’t it possible that the lack of training and ability of the translators could undo at least some of the excellent work of the previous translator(s)?

    This is merely a personal opinion, but it would seem that, if at all possible, it would be far preferable to translate from the original languages. In addition to this, to then commit the translation of scripture from another translation to individuals with meager training seems at least a bit disrespectful to the target language, the target people, and perhaps to the scriptures themselves.

    1. Dear Ben Padraic:

      The KJV translators were indeed expert in their vocation. My hermeneutical point is valid but not relevant. I sometimes throw out a ‘red-herring’ as it allows opportunity to size up the one I’m addressing. But as I said recently, I quit debating KJVOism eons ago for reasons rather harder on them.

      As I see it, the presented issues are irrelevant. KJVOism renders the history and worship of the larger church heretical and elevates eccentrics as exclusive purveyors of the real deal.

      KJVOism also invalidates the faithfulness and ministry of the Holy Spirit across generations in those places where the KJV was not used.

      I refuse to insult God’s Spirit, kingdom, church or word by legitimatizing that the KJVO premise as a matter of open discussion. I will not in this way question the Spirit’s faithfulness in keeping the whole church, which can be only with and through God’s word [Jo 16:13].

      For the sake of God’s kingdom and the gospel, it is time to evoke closure on this matter. Let the larger church call the question. If KJVOers want to cling to their particular textual tradition, fine. But they MUST provide a solid translation in the vulgar tongue.

      If they refuse to do so for any reason, they are to be regarded by the larger church as joined to those who resisted and hindered the labors of the prophets and apostles of old. Refusing to speak God’s word in the common tongue, contradicting and nay-saying those who do, KJVOers oppose, resist and obstruct churchly participation in the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Is 57:14; Je 6:21; Ro 14:13; 16:17; 1Co 9:12. And see Ro 16:17, as it is often used by fundies themselves.

      The NT was written in Hellenized [koine] Greek, not the classical of Greek of Hippocrates and Socrates centuries earlier. In the way and for the same reason, the Bible needed today speaks not classical English but the vulgar tongue, or else we will not be edified [1Co 14:17].

      Churches wishing to use the KJV must know that its usefulness can only diminish as each generation removes further from that era.

      But KJV teachers must not bind the conscience of the whole church to the decision made for their church. And were people are bound to use the KJV for conscience’ sake, people must be told not to submit to said teachers even for one hour, so that the truth of the gospel may CONTINUE WITH them [Gal 2:5].

      Blessings!

      Christian Socialist

      1. Thank you Christian Socialist for calling out the KJVOers for the harm they have been doing for decades. It’s about time that these people are held accountable by the larger Christian community. For far too long they have terrorized the unwitting masses with their virulent lies. No longer should we shrug them off as laughable idiots. Their ideology is a cancer in the body of Christ and must be marginalized, if not eradicated.

        the Admiral

        1. Dear the Admiral:

          Any time, my friend. Thank you for your support on this one. Blessings!

          Christian Socialist

    1. Scorpio, don’t listens to these wimmens, they know not what spirit they are from! They should be silent, stay at home an listen to their men-folk.

      B.R.1

        1. I am not. I have been gallivanting and drinking alcoholic beverages with my daughters at lunch time.

        1. I’m reminded of what they apparently said to Socrates:
          “Drink up , it’s all natural”

  20. “The translators of the KJV actually were superb linguists and they labored diligently for years to translate that version. ”

    For their time, I don’t dispute that. But Biblical scholarship, linguistic scholarship and the evolution of the English language have all moved on since then.

    1. Would you want a doctor from the 1600’s to perform surgery on you with the tools of that day or a doctor from our time with tools from our time to do the surgery?

      You are right. The translators of the time did the best they could with what they had. But with all the discoveries since that time, why be ignorant?

        1. The KJV is always right. The Bible stands and anything different is wrong.

          So throw out the Zantac and the Prilosec. The Bible says to drink a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine oft infirmities. Taking those other meds is clearly sinful!

        2. “drink a little wine for thy stomach’s sake and thine oft infirmities”

          I can’t count the number of times I have heard an IFB preacher try to explain this away. It generally came down to one of three explanations though.

          1. Alcohol was used for medicinal purposes at that time. Because of the medical advances we have had since then we would not have to use alcohol.

          2. Wine back then had a very low alcohol content and it was impossible to get drunk on it.

          3. It was grape juice. Obviously timothy was not drinking grape juice to “avoid the appearance of evil” and paul was telling him to drink juice.

          All three are, IMHO, ridiculous.

        3. Fundy hermeneutics (in too many cases):
          1.) Take an assumption that you already believe.
          2.) Cherry pick verses from the bible and twist them if necessary to kinda sorta support your presupposition.
          3.) Label those who disagree with you as backsliders, heretics, or if you’re really angry, secular humanists and liberals.

        4. Fundamentalist doctrine is created from:
          … a verse taken out of context, paired
          … with a verse in another book far out of time and place with the first, also taken out of context — but possibly containing the same “word” (or different words translated to the same word in English. KJV, you know!)
          … plus bald unsupported assertions,
          … guilt trips
          … calls to the altar for repentance and
          … wrapped together with the string of conviction in the absolute Inspiration of Themselves. Who could possibly doubt God was directly revealing Truth to the Man of God?

          Gag.

    1. I have a feeling this will end up in the wrong spot, but I’m trying to reply to Jay Croft’s post where he said “Everyone in the Bible was Baptist? Mirabile dictu! Even Moses. Even Adam and Eve. Wow.”

      My thoughts go to even Ahab? Even Jezebel? Even Herod? Especially Judas!

  21. The thing that always gets to me is the circular reasoning used by the KJV-onlyists to prove the KJV is superior to other translations. They say that since the KJV says this, and that translation omits that verse or says it some different way, then that translation took away from or changed the word of God. But what’s their standard to say that translation took away from or changed the word of God? The KJV!

    1. It’s actually pretty easy for them, using their logic and thought process, to answer the question about the first miracle. You see, the bible clearly teaches that drinking alcohol is a sin, and Jesus was perfect and never sinned or enabled people to sin, therefore it was OBVIOUSLY grape juice that he made. PLUS, if you read the original text, the word used for wine is the non fermented word.

      Yes, that really is exactly how they easily explain it away and it makes perfect sense to them.

  22. If you followed the instructions above, you not only failed the test, you receive a big goose egg.

    When a heretical asshole hands you a goose egg, you make an omelet. And share some, because even if they are assholes, it’s the nice thing to do.

    Also that heaping coals thing…

  23. I don’t think it was a sin to drink alcohol…it was a sin to drink alcohol in excess…..that is until you are drunk. Besides, wine was a normal drink back then. So what did they do?…..make grape juice and what was not used fast enough fermented so they threw it out? I don’t think so.

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