New Life Baptist Church decided to cast the first stone at church daycare worker Venita Short for being an unwed mother and fired her from her job. But as it turns out the Pharisaical leadership was far from being without sin themselves.

Venita sued and in court it was revealed that the Pastor Ed Wilson and wife Cindy also had a son out of wedlock.

But it gets worse. In the case it was also revealed that James Wilson, the pastor’s son and assistant pastor, had also had an affair with another day care worker and his ex-wife went on to testify that James was also soliciting prostitutes while they were married.

Put down the stones, guys, and zip up your pants. I’ll give you points for chutzpah but none for basic humanity.

222 thoughts on “Chutzpah”

  1. First?
    If not, schools can make their rules, but no one should be above them- not even Mr. And Mrs. MOG.

  2. I’m not sure some churches realize that millennials see right through old-school “image management” techniques. Not surprising that they would sacrifice an unwed mother on the alter of their sanctimonious self-righteousness. It is hard to be holy when you don’t have any dirty framlings to compare yourself to.

    1. Story goes on to say that this woman lost her baby shortly after being fired. Cause and effect? The story doesn’t say, but it all stinks. What a testimony.

  3. “Put down the stones, guys, and zip up your pants.” Church sign here

  4. Wow. These people don’t just live in a glass house, they live in– I don’t know, what’s even more fragile than glass? A wet-tissue-paper house?

    They really, really need to get over themselves.

  5. FWIW they do not appear to be the bat-shit crazy fundy flavor. I did not see any reference to the KJV on their website and in the pictures, women were wearing pants! I saw a lot of denim, the devil’s fabric, and shorts on men. I doubt if they are even saved. Amen?

    1. They take their teens to The Wilds so I’m guessing they’re of the Bob Jones camp.

      The BoJos aren’t KJVO and have recently made peace with britches for women.

      1. Which means they never were KJVO and always accepted women in pants. You know, like their inter-racial dating policy which never existed.

        Am I on the right track?

        1. Hmm, looks like your brainwashing – uh, I mean *education* didn’t take. Please report to the Welcome Center for your Mandatory Memory Wipe Complimentary Continuing Education Session.

        2. My former Fundy church also seemed to recently come to peace with female church members wearing pants *off site* …but if you are one of the female students at their Bible college you are not even allowed to wear pants during a fire drill.

          “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” – George Orwell, Animal Farm

    2. In their favor, they do unjustifiably oppress women for moral grandstanding reasons & distracting their customers & supporters from their own transgressions with great ease & ferocity.

      1. They do seem to misuse “Where there is no vision the people perish”. That’s typical of most Fundies.

        1. Where there is no supervision, the pastor and his son/employee can get away with stuff.

  6. Ah, just like the woman at the well, that Jesus condemned, shamed & dismissed for having had 4 husbands and living with a 5th. She really regretted that lifestyle she had been in after the tongue lashing & dismissal she was afforded! Went back to the city ashamed & aware of her status as unworthy of social interaction with anyone.

    1. I know that girl in the photo (as referenced in the article) she has a daughter with that man and recently married a good friend of mine. I am glad to report that she is very happy and on the road to recovery,and my friends loves that little girl like she is his own.

      1. Here’s hoping (if the lawsuit is still ongoing) that she takes them to the cleaners.

        1. I hope so too. I also hope that this story gets blasted all over the internet so that everyone can see what raving hypocrites the church leaders are. I’m sure it will get white-washed and brushed under the rug though, and spun as “gossip” spread by a bitter ex-church member.

        2. Not all church leaders are “raving hypocrites”. If you take all of the IFB church leaders that have been featured here over the total number of IFB church leaders, it would be a small percentage… and even smaller if one considers church leaders of any stripe

          I certainly hope that this church leader’s hypocrisy gets told and re-told everywhere, but let’s not overdo it with the broad brush.

          I know humble men who are pastoring decent IFB churches (not crazy). As with happy contented marriages, good pastors & churches don’t make “news” — it is the whacko element that is newsworthy.

        3. GR, as Darrell has pointed out many times, however: the “normal” fundies are never very far removed from the crazies.

          One can’t call on the moderate Muslims to speak out against the extremists without asking/expecting the same of other religious nuts.

  7. I tried to visit their website, but once the Baptist muzak started playing automatically I had to leave.

  8. “Juror James Piatt told they decided to lean Short’s way in the verdict after finding out that the Wilsons had a son ‘out of wedlock.’ ‘It was a double-standard,’ he said.”

    Ya think?

  9. I suppose the moral of this story is… Those who live I’m glass houses should keep their underwear on.

  10. In their defense, if you want to change, you have to hang with the right crowd. Gotta kick those make you stumble out, clean your friends list etc.

      1. No such thing as an honorary PhD in the real academic world.

        But Fundies live in a different world.

        1. No such thing as honor in the academic world. So of course, honorary degrees would never happen.

          The way I see it, honorary degrees are better because they require real accomplishments. You can’t just apply to a college, pass some tests and then expect an honorary degree. You have to impress them. You have to be amazing at what you do. They approach you and offer you the degree. You don’t approach them and request it.

          Does it sometimes look like the college is instead trying to impress me? Of course it does. But again, if I wasn’t good at what I do, why would they want to impress me with their willingness to honor my accomplishments? You need more than just a GPA to do that.

        2. I agree, mostly. However, honorary degrees in Fundystan are usually conferred because of mutual admiration for “success” in the close-minded Fundy society. When you even consider that many Fundy college degrees aren’t worth the paper they are printed on, the fact that these same institutions confer honorary Phds is laughable.

        3. I failed to inform my other computer about my newly obtained authority in truth, so it still thought I wasn’t as good as I am not. That’s been corrected with this post.

        4. I’m glad you cleared that up Dr. At first I ignored the KOACC comment. But seeing that it in fact came from a Dr., I believe it to be an infallible truth.

        5. I am very skeptical about “Dr.” anything. A school superintendent for a large district in my area was fired 20 years back because his doctorate was fake.

        6. As you should, Scorpio. I wear my honorary title like legit scientists selling miracle medicine wear lab coats on TV.

          Linn, try asking an institution to just give you an honorary title. It’s impossible. I believe I’ve proven my point. Which I shouldn’t have to anymore.

        7. Keep on said:

          “The way I see it, honorary degrees are better because they require real accomplishments. You can’t just apply to a college, pass some tests and then expect an honorary degree. You have to impress them. You have to be amazing at what you do. They approach you and offer you the degree. You don’t approach them and request it.”

          Translation is from the immortal lines from “Top Gun”:

          Slider: Goose, whose butt did you kiss to get in here anyway?
          Goose: The list is long, but distinguished.
          Slider: Yeah, well so is my Johnson.

        8. I feel smarter for just reading Dr. Eric and Dr. KeepOn’s comments. Thank you both for interacting with us common folk.

          I would like to take up a love offering for you both.

        9. Scorpio, I would humbly and graciously accept. Not that I desire a gift, but that it may be credited to your righteousness.

        10. Your submission to (honorary) authority clearly indicates a humbling spiritual condition.

          May I remind everyone to give freely and unabashedly. A reluctant giver might as well not give. If you provide for me, God will provide for you.

        11. This morning someone said, “It’s all Praise the Lord and Pass the Buck.” That is true on several levels.

        12. I guess I’m not spiritual. I desire a gift because my automobile — not a Jaguar — needs repairs.

        13. Reverend Larry awards Reverend Moe an Honorary Doctorate.
          Reverend Moe awards Reverend Curly an Honorary Doctorate.
          Reverence Curly awards Reverend Larry an Honorary Doctorate.
          NYUK! NYUK! NYUK!

    1. That means they would need to remove the leadership and start over..might be a good idea!

  11. The real irony is their Mother’s Day Banquet theme— When the Caged Bird Sings
    you can’t make up stuff as good as this.

    1. Meanwhile, the church’s first family is acting out some unpublished Faulkner novel.

    1. Gibbs again. Isn’t it cute how so many Fundy institutions actually believe having him on their side is a plus?

    2. Is Gibbs’ job simply to help IFB churches sweep shit under the rug? I wonder if he sees all these court cases as “attacks on fundamentalism”?

      1. He also speaks at “special” services – isn’t that special?

      2. You’d think by this time in his career of rug/shit sweeping that he’d know to ask the question of ‘what skeletons are in your closet, cause court discover is going to eviscerate you if you go to trial and are hiding stuff’? Maybe he asked and was lied to, but the fact this went to case and they admitted to it, reads to me like they didn’t get advice to settle settle settle for any amount of $ she wants.

        1. Or maybe, like my bil, God told him he could plead not guilty because he was going to be found innocent……Didn’t quite work out for my bil…

        2. Yeah, a good lawyer would advise you to take the plea or settle. Not all lawyers are good lawyers though, and not everyone is capable of listening to good advice. I’ve always been of the opinion that Gibbs specifically markets himself as a Christian, because he can’t market himself as good.

        3. Do you all remember the letters Gibbs was posting on behalf of West Coast Baptist College regarding the Mike Zachary / Brad Boruff situation? He ended up in a public spat with Golden State Baptist College, who was represented by his own son. They all ended up looking really, really, sleazy and the situation appeared to be a huge cover-up.

          IMHO, not an example of high quality legal representation.

          (scroll down for info about these announcements)

    3. I have met Gibbs before (shook his hand after the service no less) and he comes across as polished and sincere. My impression of his law practice is that they are good at sending out threatening letters, but they are wanting on the actual litigation side. Their heart seems to be in the right place, but unless you want to die or go to jail (not trying to be offensive–just making my point), I would recommend using a different law firm.

      1. “Their heart seems to be in the right place”.

        Because good people love to warn pedophiles that they’re about to be reported to the police so that they can suddenly be called to the mission field and avoid facing court, right?

        Gibbs is pure evil. Yes, criminals have a right to criminal lawyers. But what Gibbs does is not that.

        1. Pedophiles should be in open population in prison. Just to see what it feels like to be weak and helpless against attack. As it is they get special consideration even behind bars. I am not an advocate of violence even against violent offenders but pedophiles prey on the weakest, most vulnerable and when they are supposed to be shepherds it is incredibly vile.

  12. I’m confused. Did they settle or was there a verdict? The article is very poorly written. She should have asked Darrell to do the write-up.

    1. My impression is that there was a settlement, because jury awards are not “undisclosed” sums. But the case seems to have gone as far as a jury trial. The parties probably reached a settlement after evidence had been presented, but before the jury began deliberating.

      I’m adding some conjecture to the information in the news story, which, as you said, wasn’t written very clearly.

  13. If it is illegal to have a child “out of wedlock” fire her. If, on the other hand, we live in a society that understands that kids are kids no matter which side of the wedlock they are born on, shut up and get on with loving people.

        1. If you told a fundy “true love means never having to say you’re sorry” they would completely agree and say they are not only not sorry for, but proud of their actions!

        2. True! In my experience true fundy love is more of the “suffering is good for your soul” type

        3. Sonny, true love is the greatest thing in the world – except for a nice MLT – mutton, lettuce, and tomato sandwich, where the mutton is nice and lean and the tomatoes are ripe

    1. Well, it isn’t actually illegal. It was the open double standard that allowed her to press suit and have standing in court. The Church did not follow its own Constitution and bylaws with regard to the Pastor’s Son, and so there was room for legal action.

      After all, the church is *legally obligated* to follow its Constitution and bylaws.

      So, I am glad she received a settlement. But the article says that she is pregnant again, due in 7 weeks, and will call the child “Messiah.”

      There are some serious loonies in this group. They may not be KJV-only, and they may allow pants on wimmin, but the Pastor’s son as Assistant Pastor soliciting prostitutes says some wild times are going on behind closed doors.

      1. I was being sarcastic, (and bitter because you know, ex-fundy.) Of course it isn’t illegal, unless you happen to live in some godforsaken hole in the eastern mountains of a distant continent. I guess my point was, get with the century, New Life B. C.

  14. From one of the linked articles:

    “Sadly, Short lost her baby in 2012, but is now 33 weeks pregnant with a boy. She and her boyfriend plan to call their baby Messiah.”

    (Yes, she is black.)

    1. People can name their kids what they want, but I think that’s an awfully hard moniker to live up to.

        1. My name is Vincent, but you can call me Vinny. Or Uncle Vin. I’m a real good fella’. Now tell me where the money is, or I’ll break your kneecaps.

          Ok…I’ll stop with the Sicilian jokes…

      1. Perhaps it is meant as a slap in the face to the church that fired her.

  15. Dear Stuff Fundies Like Reader …

    Christians suing Christians — no Biblical norms violated there!

    Christian Socialist

    PS: See 1Co 6:1-11 for another opinion.

    1. I’ll disagree with that verse strongly most of the time. Sue the pants off them. When laws are broken, when lives are hurt, when so many awful things can happen…sue sue sue. The NT context that verse was written in DOES NOT apply in most cases of modern American policy.

      1. Just as I will ALWAYS argue against the idea that you need to make a personal one on one face to face confrontation/apology with people. Bull. Shit. A perfect excuse for a person in power to manipulate anyone else. Confront publicly and massively when the situation calls for it, personally and privately when other situations require it.

        1. I agree. There was a situation several years ago at my former fundy church in which one of the Christian school teachers was caught having sex with one of the students. He was fired ( surprisingly enough) and admitted publicly to the congregation that he had had an affair although he wasn’t allowed to say who it was with. He was shipped out of state to receive intense counseling and the last I heard, was that he was an administrator of a Christian school. It came out after the fact who the young lady was, and I was shocked that her parents didn’t kill the SOB or at least press charges, but after my fundy blinders fell off, I realized that the powers that be had talked them out of pressing charges in order to save face. The young lady was of the age of consent BUT in our state, if a teacher is having sex with a student, even if they are of the age of consent, it’s still illegal, “institutional sexual abuse” I think is the name for it. I can understand wanting to protect the privacy of the young lady but it’s not like the truth didn’t eventually come out anyway.

        2. Depending on the statute of limitations, he may still be facing charges, even if the young lady decides not to prosecute. That’s the way it is in most states of which I’m aware. Either way, it is totally deplorable. Teachers should not take advantage of their students to fulfill their own sexual lust (I’ve been a teacher for 35 years).

        3. Ready to Leave: Did the incident you speak of happen at a church/school in indianapolis?

      2. Actually, the verse states that we should ensure that our churches have good governance so that there is no need for arguments between believers to go to court. In many cases, there is no accountability in the local church, and then when the appropriate result is to take the matter to court, they scream at the victim that they can’t do that, cause bible!

        Clean up your house, guys. The court cases look bad, but the coverups (which always end up coming to light) look worse.

    2. But we are also supposed to rebuke publicly those who live in sin and are in a leadership position. So, for example, if a pastor bangs his girlfriend and gets her pregnant, but then fires a woman for doing the same thing, perhaps he should be rebuked in a public way (like a court of law for example).

      1. Thank you FF, every Fundy church I have been to has used this to manipulate and control the people allowing the pastor to have unrestricted reign. I double standard that the church supports because of the fear that God will punish them and the mistaken belief that God will correct the pastor if there is a problem.

        1. Fundies use the “biblical standards” to punish the weak while the strong and guilty get away with little or no judgment.

          You can’t sue us for violating your rights or for violating Biblical Standards because that would be violating Biblical Standards. We win. You lose. Loser! Who’s the MoG in Charge? Yeah, Man!

        2. That is the idea that Hyles style preachers push pre-emptively so that when they get caught plowing with another man’s heifer they can play that card. It get’s really old dealing with their sycophants who just cannot distinguish between eternal and temporal judgment. Yeah, if, contrary to all evidence, Schaap is actually a believer, his sins are covered. That’s in eternity however. Until then, if you screw someone literally or figuratively, the ethical response is restitution. You can’t smear your filth on the bride of Christ and expect to maintain your former position. That is the whole tenor of the listed qualifications of deacons/elders/pastors. Forgiven eternally, but DONE!

    3. If the church had lived up to it’s calling to resolve the issues amicably with the aggrieved that would be a better resolution. The burden is on the wrong doer to make it right, and they were clearly not going to do so. Also I don’t think that “lawsuit” in Paul’s time meant the same as what it does now. “Lawsuits was what the used against various Tribunes, Consuls, & Proconsuls to get a death warrant “formalized” before sending out the assassins after the out of power parties.

      1. Civil Judgement for damages isn’t the same as the result of a lawsuit being that the court puts out a bounty on you for X amount of silver per pound that the head weighs when brought back to the Senate.

    4. Dear StuartB, MiriamD, ready_to_leave, Linn, Fundy “Mental,” Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist, Her Royal Highness Tiarali, fundyfacinated, Hiddenexfundie, rtgmath, Joshua Crosby, and RobM:

      I should note that that we are not in actually disagreement. I concur, noting as was mentioned earlier that we simply cannot make a ‘one-on-one’ equation of an ancient text from another culture with what happens here and now. That simply isn’t good, hermeneutical work.

      But IFBs would be LOATHE to admit this. So even if WE handle the text differently, the venerable cocksman, Ed Wilson and son, OUGHT to regard themselves BOUND by such a rending.

      The earlier post was written somewhat ‘tongue in cheek,’ and in the same spirit that I now affirm this: that never before have IFBs been involved in duplicitous behavior.

      Ya’ll believe me. Right?

      Christian Socialist

      1. Dear Christian Socialist, You said it, (twice), I believe it, that settles it.

        1. Dear MiriamD:

          Thanks for pointing out this thing. I’m not sure what happened, other than the page didn’t reload, I added the smily and hit the button again. Of course, this is also the only time I’ve ever made such a puerile blunder … [ducks for incoming projectiles …] LOL!

          Christian Socialist

        2. And of course I speak from a position of perfection and George-less behaviour, LOL

        3. It’s so many comments ago, I don’t remember what we disagreed on. It must be something to do with the end of school year and getting ready for the big verb conjugation test!

    5. Dear StuartB, MiriamD, ready_to_leave, Linn, Fundy “Mental,” Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist, Her Royal Highness Tiarali, fundyfacinated, Hiddenexfundie, rtgmath, Joshua Crosby, and RobM:

      I should note that that we are not in actually disagreement. I concur, noting as was mentioned earlier that we simply cannot make a ‘one-on-one’ equation of an ancient text from another culture with what happens here and now. That simply isn’t good, hermeneutical work.

      But IFBs would be LOATHE to admit this. So even if WE handle the text differently, the venerable cocksman, Ed Wilson and son, OUGHT to regard themselves BOUND by such a rending.

      The earlier post was written somewhat ‘tongue in cheek,’ and in the same spirit that I now affirm this: that never before have IFBs been involved in duplicitous behavior.

      Ya’ll believe me. Right? 😉

      Christian Socialist

  16. Wondering if the victim was a teen at the time. It’s been my experience that teen indiscretions are handled publicly, while adult ones are covered up

    1. She seems to have been an adult, but powerless & meaningless to the leadership. Thought they could grandstand on her reputation and she’d sulk away shamed like their acolytes would.

    1. Dear StuartB:

      It never is. When the Jack S got nailed for nailing that girl, someone claiming to be a deacon from First Church, Hammond was here telling us that his church wasn’t like that…

      Christian Socialist

  17. People in stained glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. These days, the ones they’re throwing stones at are likely to throw them back. And it’s about time.

  18. Don’t day care centers have to be licensed by the state? Doesn’t this make them subject to state and federal non-discrimination laws?

    1. Here in the “Heart of Dixie” church operated day cares do not have to be licensed by the state. Roll Tide!

      1. I remember when I lived in Alabama, there was a brouhaha in the state legislature about regulating church-operated day care.

        The state motto of Alabama is “We dare defend our rights,” and some folks take that very seriously!

        1. Wait, Roll Tide can be shortened to RT now? Is WE a declaration of war if so?

        2. And how many national championships & SEC titles does Bama’s little sister have???? Roll Tide!!

      2. You tell ’em, BamaMan! They don’t call it Title-Town for nuthin’.

        1. Hey, I’m a Louisville B-Ball fan. U of Kentucky, too. Still drinking to recover from that last heartbreak.

  19. Out of all of the posts on SFL, if somebody asked me for the perfect microcosm of the problem people have with the IFB movement, I would point them to this one. It has it all.

  20. I’d be curious if these bozos were offered a settlement and refused. My guess would be that they would boldly refuse, and didn’t think about court discovery.

    Fools rush in where angels dare to tread….

  21. BTW, I particularly like the news articles linked posted a pic of the church’s lawn sign that said “The Heavenly Father’s arms never tire of holding up his children!” I believe that to be true, but they sure do tire awfully quickly of all the labor involved in trying to hide & suppress the transgressions of the neighbors ne’erdowell kids from that proper authorities.

  22. I predict that in a year’s time the commonness of true stories like this will put out of business.

  23. I know that those in fundyland would say it is tough love to fire a single mother for having a child out of wedlock….
    Once upon a time I would have spouted that bullcrap.

    Now I can’t understand in what reality firing a single mother from a job which was probably not paying a lot anyways is Christ like….how is that showing the Love and Mercy of Christ??

    1. I think the greatest question that’s still unasked is “Should churches even have daycares?” I say no. The church has become a business. For grins and giggles, read a newer church constitution. The first paragraph or two is all lawyer speak about non-profits, etc. Most importantly, a lot of daycares essentially elevate the pastor’s wife to super queen bee. It does however allow the pastor to give summer jobs to all his kids so THAT is a blessing.

      1. I agree. I’m not sure churches should have day cares. During the height of our abuse scandal, one prominent local pastor converted a beautiful convent chapel (site of lovely daily Masses) into a day-care center, just to make money. What on earth was he thinking? Talk about tone-deaf.

        I believe it’s used for Hispanic ministry now. Makes more sense. Doesn’t make the faithful do face-palms either.

        1. To be fair, often there is a real need in a community for day care.

          Yes, it’s sometimes a way to earn some extra money for the church (although typically, not that much) but also to utilize the buildings during the week.

          I firmly believe that church day care and Senior Citizen centers should be subject to all regulations required of “secular” day care establishments.

      2. I have seen churches in impoverished areas who run daycares as a ministry–not charging or charging very little. They allow those in poverty to find cheaper child care and hold down a job.
        I think we have to ask what the purpose is for the church to run a daycare. If it is simply to provide income for the church or to indoctrinate the children of the church, I don’t find that to be a good reason.

        1. Yes Leanne! This is exactly it. We should care for those who need it not those who can repay us. Why does that sound familiar?

        2. My nephew went to a first-rate preschool run by a local United Methodist Church. It had highly qualified teachers and excellent curricula. I’m fairly certain the host church makes no profit on the preschool program– in fact, I think it subsidizes the preschool, at least by providing facilities for free or at a large discount.

          Many churches have such programs simply as a service to the community, not to promote the church or make money. Most of the children at my nephew’s preschool did not belong to families that were members of that church, and there was a minimum of religious indoctrination in the school.

          Until there is good public day-care and preschool for all children, there will be a need for this kind of ministry.

        3. Your comment smacks of socialism. The duty of the church is not to babysit poor unwed or wed mothers so they can get cheap daycare. An orphanage that places children into Christian homes is a ministry. Daycare, MOPS, mommies-day-out, and meet-ups are not ministry.

        4. Not everything has to be researched to death nor does every opinion require a group consensus to be true. I can only imagine how Micaiah the son of Imlah felt.

        5. David, you are no prophet of the Lord fighting against the lying prophets of Baal. So no, you don’t know what Micaiah felt like.

          Not to mention you haven’t been put into prison for what you said.

          Drama Queen, much?

          Nor is socialism a bad thing. The Gospel is a Social Gospel. Love one another as I have loved you. Love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others as you want them to do to you. Give without expectation of repayment. Be merciful, even as your Father in Heaven is merciful. Jesus commanded his disciples to heal the sick. Judgment before the Son of Man will be based on whether you ministered to the sick, the widows, the orphans and the prisoners. And it is Hard for someone who is rich to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.

          So stuff it, mate. Hubris does not become you.

        6. That the Gospel has strong social components is clear just from reading the Scriptures. It isn’t the whole of it, but it is a major part.

          Fundamentalism has worked hard to defame that part of the gospel.

          I didn’t believe that part of the gospel until I came out of fundamentalism and started reading Scripture for what it said, not for what I was told it meant.

          The Scriptures I referenced–do they mean nothing? What about them would allow you to think the church has nothing to do with making lives better? Ever read the Book of Acts?

          Just because Fundamentalists ignore large swaths of Scripture doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

      3. Should churches run daycares? The one I was at? NO on many levels. Everyone was already running around working in many ministries and this sucked the remaining possible free hours. No time for fellowship, but this was part of pleasing God! Former stay at home moms who answered the call to run around after a room full of someone else’s kids all day to impatiently throw PBJ s at the kids before heading back into AWANA when their little one is having an honest, tired meltdown and just needs to stay home and spend time with their parent/s. The daycare is viewed as a feeder for the school and so on. The one I have the most experience at was actually looking at getting licensed for down to 6 weeks old until is became clear that the no more workers could be culled from the weary masses and it was considered not that valuable since 6-week-old can’t pray the sinner’s prayer. An honest salt and light, community loving outreach instead of “pet the calves and the cows will come?” I’d love to see it.

        1. Sounds as if church-run day cares vary a lot, so they can’t be painted with a broad brush, I guess. A good friend works at one run by a local PCUSA church. She’s wonderful, so I assume the day care is, too.

          OTOH, another friend had issues with an Episcopal-run day care. The host church, with a shrinking, elderly congregation, didn’t have to wherewithal to keep up the day care, so there were issues like mold, dirt, teacher shortage, and so on. Could happen anywhere.

        2. Here’s the thing;

          Daycare is often a need for those in poverty or difficult life circumstances. So I think that it would be charitable for churches to run day cares for people in need.

          That said, for it to be a good thing, those daycares would have to be subject to the same laws as other daycares. The safety of the kids would have to be the most important thing. That means hiring qualified people, making sure that the grounds are clean and safe, and having safety plans for child safety etc. It wouldn’t mean that the daycare would have to be on church property or have christian workers. It shouldn’t be about indoctrinating the kids or keeping them away from the world, but helping needy families to take steps to change their circumstances. You know, showing love to the world and all that.

          But I’m pretty sure that’s not what we’re talking about.

        3. I don’t mind a church that actually tries to meet the needs of the poor, but it’s got to be done correctly. Or as the fundies say, “decently and in order”.

          Every church — urban, suburban, rural — should be trying to meet the needs of the people surrounding them. If daycare is a need, do it. Just do it correctly. This means proper facilities, proper procedures and practices, proper licensing, etc.

          If a soup kitchen is a need, do it. It would be great to do it on a weekend night, when many soup kitchens are closed. If a food pantry is needed, do it. Not with expired cans of sardines and a box of generic cookies that you got at the dollar store three years ago, but with decent food.

          If transportation is needed, do it. Some people could work better jobs if they had transportation off the public transit line or when the public transit system isn’t operating.

          This isn’t anything but loving people. Funny how fundies decry the single/divorced mom on Section 8 with three kids, Medicaid, and a $300 car that breaks down every month, but then rail against both the local charities and government assistance that are there to help the unfortunate.

          Sunday school has its place but Jesus never mentioned it. He did say something once or twice about loving people.

        4. L. Nelson Bell was the father in law of Billy Graham. He also had a part in the early days of Christianity Today. He also served in China in medical missions. He came to the conclusion that despite helping people live longer and better lives through his work, they ultimately all died. What mattered most was saving the lost.

          The church is not for social welfare. The church is not a taxi service. The church is not a grocery store. The church is not a daycare. The church is not a voting precinct. The church is not a movie theatre or music hall or coffee shop or job seekers placement service. The church IS about seeing souls saved, baptized, discipled, and growing in their walk with the Lord.

        5. “despite helping people live longer and better lives through his work, they ultimately all died. What mattered most was saving the lost.”
          That is a despicable sentiment. Lives matter. All lives matter. Quality of life is very important.
          You are at this moment breathing air that could be used by a preacher to “save the lost.” As you consider yourself, “saved” I presume, does it seem like it might be a good idea to save that air for the preacher? Should all the ”saved” be offed because their lives don’t matter, just their souls?
          Shame on him for saying that and on you for repeating it.

        6. You have no compassion for the lost. You just want to help people so you feel better. That’s essentially what you are saying and that is shameful, despicable, calloused, mean, and offensive especially on this blog where all should be welcomed. I wish you would practice what you preach in your responses.

        7. No David, I am not saying that at all. I am saying that it is wrong to separate a person’s quality of life from that person’s soul. Preach the gospel by all means but tend the suffering, comfort the sad, support the weary, cheer the sad. That is what Jesus did. He could have simply said to the blind man, your soul is saved, but he didn’t. He made him see again. Why? Jesus healed, comforted and blessed. He had compassion not only on lost souls but on suffering lives.

        8. Not everyone who was healed by Jesus followed Him. He knew that would happen, but He healed them anyway. Not everyone you help will want to hear the Message of the Gospel. Help them anyway.

        9. Yes, and by the giving the help and the healing, Jesus proclaimed their quality of live had value.

        10. Certainly a church’s main function isn’t as a social service agency. However, if a church is merely an island to itself and a monument to the MOG, then there’s something wrong.

          Whether you want to admit it or not, there are verses that talk about serving the poor. There’s even a parable about the Good Samaritan. The religious people aren’t spoken of well in that.

          If all your churchianity means is having a bus “ministry” so you can inflate church attendance with the poor little bus kids, thereby checking off the “care about the needy” box, then you’re doing it wrong.

          I don’t care about your deity if your deity means you treat me as a number or worse yet, ignore me completely because I’m not part of your clique.

        11. You’re only welcome in those churches after your 3rd assurance of baptism.

        12. David B, unless you are the fourth person of the trinity or the being you call God has personally revealed it to you, you are in no position to state anyone’s motives. You cannot know people’s motives unless they personally reveal them to you.

          Are you god or are you claiming extra-biblical revelation?

        13. David B, are you the famed brother of StuartB, because I know he has a brother David.

  24. I find it apalling that when a picture of a “church” is sported, it’s a nice, neat building with well-manicured grounds.

    Next, it’s a fancy pic of the Mog and his wife.

    This is a sick, sick view of the body of Christ.


      1. Oo! But I would like to see that in person – love abandoned buildings

      2. Nice.

        In my opinion there is about as much spiritual life in that building as there is in many so-called churches today.

        So many hurt and broken souls towing the party line and speaking the right words. None of this requires any thought our real life within. Just wear the right clothes, sport the correct bumper stickers, and give of your tithes and his offerings and all will be well.

        There is not much more that can be said that hasn’t already been put on display right here.


  25. From the church’s website, right smack up there on the home page:

    ” Beware that thou forget not the Lord thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgements, and his statues, which I command thee this day.” Deuteronomy 8:11 (KJV)

    Statues?? IFBs are into statues now? Who knew?

    1. It saddens me to see the pics on their website of all the precious kids who are apparently under this guy’s “authority”.

  26. Great post, Darryl!

    This kind of hypocrisy needs to be exposed; I’m thinking of how the son was dealt with versus the day-care worker, not so much the pastor.

    The constitution and/or rules apply to current sins, not past sins; the son and the day-care worker should have been treated equally.

    What the pastor did in his (presumably) pre-pastoral days really is irrelevant… I assume that his sin occurred before he even came to this church. If he can to the church single, and sinned with his wife-to-be, he should have been removed from the pastorate.

    It also appears that the sins of the father were replicated in the son.

    This may be the 20th century, but, in my opinion, God’s rules haven’t changed; sex outside of marriage is still a sin, regardless of how popular it may be in culture. I don’t have a problem with them setting forth rules for their church workers, but I despise the way the selectively enforced the rules.

  27. once again. ….forgiveness?…. If she had one moment of weakness.

    but if that were her lifestyle and she told the church to stuff it, then I think they had standing to fire her.

    1. I am not going to dispute their right to have fired her in the first place. Pregnant and unmarried is not what most churches, especially of the IFB kind, want in their employees.

      It all comes down to hypocrisy. The didn’t punish the Pastor’s son for much worse behavior (fired for a month is not punishment, it is vacation). But the fired her. It wasn’t the crime, but the coverup.

      And, well, the fact that they are still in fellowship with other IFB churches despite it all.

      1. I disagree, all employees should be protected by the laws of the land. If a woman can be fired for being pregnant where does that put all women employees? At the mercy of their employers instead of protected by the law. If the church wants to run a business or even a charity that falls (or should) within the jurisdiction of government regulations, they should realize that they have to comply with the same regulations as all other daycares. It is simply wrong to fire a woman because she is pregnant. This makes me very angry. If she did something illegal, sold drugs or was convicted of a b&e, fine, fire her. Pregnancy is NOT a crime.

        1. Miriam, I agree that their firing her wasn’t right, regardless. I was speaking in a legal sense, not a moral one. I obviously didn’t get that across.

          The rights of women and children need to be very carefully safeguarded. I would say that in any non-church enterprise the church may delve into, including “School” and “Day Care” and other such things, all laws protecting employees from the employers should be in force. No credence should be given to the idea that a business has a religious position, regardless of its owner.

          Unfortunately, fundamentalism along with other conservative religious institutions (as the Catholic Church) love the idea that “Corporations are people” and should have the rights of conscience as persons. It is very manipulative.

          I apologize for not being clear.

        2. I will forgive you for not being clear 🙂 The laws regarding daycare are appallingly inadequate.

        3. @MiriamD – you twist this… she was NOT fired for being pregnant; you are correct; this is not a crime.

          She was fired for becoming pregnant out of wedlock, which is against the church constitution.

          I fully grant that the pastor’s son should have had the exact same punishment.

        4. In or out of wedlock, she was carrying a child. I don’t think it mattered to Jesus if those little children he welcomed were bastards or good fundies. I believe that church and state should be separate and that woman’s job should have nothing to do with morality, only legality or illegality.

        5. I dare guess she didn’t get fired for pregnancy, but for sexual activity. Unless it was an immaculate conception?

          the Admiral

        6. I am quite certain she got fired for sexual activity but unless she got pregnant how were they to know. Do they spy on all their employees? Kind of like a game of smashing the gopher head when it appears out of the hole, they can only smash the ones they catch. I just hate the whole filthy stench of this kind of thing, sorry if I get a little worked up about it.

  28. This scenario has been played out thousands of times in fundy churches. It no longer surprises or shocks me; just the contrary, I’m surprised when a fundy church can go more than 5-10 years without some scandal coming to the surface. With the advent of the Internet there anyone can do a simple search and find out how prevalent major issues are and how they are commonly covered over, explained away, and outright ignored or justified using deceit and lies. People aren’t as stupid as the fundy church wants them to be and the only people left that they can really control are those already indoctrinated by their propaganda. There will always be a few new additions but their number is far smaller than those leaving. The fundy church will whither into almost non-existence within a couple generations.

    IMHO they could change directions by just reading “The Fundamentals”. Written by the founders of the movement, it’s a compilation of essays that make clear how far off track people are today:
    1. The KJV issue isn’t real, the founders hadno problem with other versions because they contained all the major doctrines necessary. There are quotes from non KJV bibles in “The Fundamentals” proving they used other versions. The KJV group was around but we’re considered a fringe part of the movement.
    2. Legalism and separation are not what the movement is about. Godliness and truth were important along with grace and mercy.
    3. Leadership was to be held accountable and those in the pew had a responsibility to enforce it.

    The leadership will never go back to this, they would have to give up their power and live truly righteous lives. Instead, they will continue to pay Gibbs millions of dollars a year to keep them out of trouble. Occasionally they loose a case like this but they turn it into political chaff and end up with people more entrenched in the fundy mindset.

    1. Good post.

      Where can one read “The Fundamentals”?

      Regarding #2, in my opinion, this is where many IFB churches have gone wrong. The founders may not have been about legalism, but I would think they were, as part of godliness, concerned with separating from the ungodly. Unfortunately, successive generations found it easier to define godly people by those that kept certain rules: tithe, go soul-winning, attend church. So, we’ve come, in those churches, to fellow church members, who keep those “important” rules, but have a deep-seated hatred for each other. Such men should never be in leadership, but they are promoted because they keep the “important” rules.

      1. You can read them online for free. It was originally a 12 volume set published by RA Torrey and rebound into a 4 volume set. RA Torrey sent them, for no cost, to every pastor, Sunday school teacher, and Christian that wanted it.

        The fundamentalist movement was a reaction to an idea that took hold in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s known as modernism. Modernism denied a lot of the basic tenets of Christianity like the virgin birth, miracles as historical, etc.

        Billy Graham was a fundamentalist but as the movement became more and more extreme he was no longer a part of it. When he was doing his crusades most of fundy land had separated from him. Today, of course, he’s denounced as a heretic from many pulpits.

        I’m doing a lot of research on fundamentalism and writing a paper on it. The history and growth of the movement is complex but you can see how different influences like the Campbell and Landmark movements still affect fundamentalism today.

        1. The fundamentalist movement was a reaction to an idea that took hold in the late 1800’s and early 1900’s known as modernism.

          Research and scholasticism. They rejected new ideas. They rejected history. They rejected literacy. They rejected truth.

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