160 thoughts on “Trickery!”

      1. I thought one of the “the K JV is superior” arguments was that it wasn’t copyrighted unlike all the modern versions. To them, copywriting a Bible just meant that it was nothing more than a money making scheme. But these guys are saying that the K JV is copyrighted?

        1. Then next trip to the UK, I’d better take my NASB so as not to run afoul of local laws.

        2. Let’s try and not repeat the same silly arguments that don’t actually represent what they believe. Sure, they say 1611, but the don’t literally mean the exact copy that came off the printing press with the apocrypha, which was never considered canon anyway. We all know what they mean by KJV/KJB.

          Their entire worship of a book is ludicrous but throwing up these terrible “facts” just make you look silly too.

          Let’s retire these ones

          “The real KJV should have apocrypha”
          “King James was gay”
          “there were no esses (s)”
          “the earliest manuscripts disagree” (we actually have no way of knowing if the earliest available are accurate, since we don’t have any originals to compare them to. KJVers are in the same boat as the rest of us, and make assumptions).

        3. Why retire those arguments? They strike a death blow to the core KJV line of unreason and demonstrate how ridiculous their contention is.

          They *DO* mean 1611. They give no room in their narrative for a faulty original version of the KJV. They won’t even print the introduction the translators gave acknowledging that errors exist and encouraging new translations to be done after them.

          No, no. Heretics always try to minimize the issues they can’t handle. Full steam ahead!

        4. The only reason I think the argument about King James being gay (or bi-curious, or whatever he was) is that some of the KJV-onlyists actually argue that the KJV has authority because its patron was such a “godly” king. And there is a large overlap between people who make that argument and people who claim that homosexuality will undermine Christianity as well as civilization itself.

        5. Dang it, I dropped part of my first sentence. It should read:

          The only reason I think the argument about King James being gay (or bi-curious, or whatever he was) *has any relevance* is …

        6. They aren’t really “arguments”, that’s why. They are caricatures of what they believe, and are easy for us to use and then dismiss.

          For example, “King James was gay” has anecdotal evidence at best, and shouldn’t have any relevance on the translation, with the exception of the “godly king” argument.

          The “written in old/middle english argument and f’s and s’s” is also not a real argument, because f’s were s’s (it’s not a mistake) and it is written in modern english, but an older way of speaking.

          The apocrypha argument is also moot because it has no bearing on the actual text of the canonical books. You can buy a KJV today with the apocrypha in it. You can also buy other bibles today with the apocrypha in it. It doesn’t validate/invalidate them.

          The translators introduction doesn’t have any bearing on them because they claim that they were inspired by God without knowledge. It also doesn’t have any bearing on the text.

          Really, the only thing that is going to stop them worshipping a book is by seeing God in a different light. As loving and compassionate and full of mercy and forgiveness, and not wanting to bash everyone over the head with his law, but wants to forgive and pardon.

          They view “the book” so highly because they place the law of God above God himself.

        7. I’ll have you know thet the KJV was not written in Old or Middle English, but in Early Modern, Like Shakespeare. Middle is quite a bit older- Chaucer being one of the later writers, and takes some learning to read. Old English is removed enough that is takes actual study to decipher it.

          “Hwæt! Wé Gárdena in géardagum
          þéodcyninga þrym gefrúnon·
          hú ðá æþelingas ellen fremedon.”

          looks nothing like the KJV. Shakespeare looks quite modern by comparison.

          (And yes, I did spend several years in school on this.)

        8. Luke – you don’t appear to be reading what anyone else is saying. Kind of sounds like you are arguing with yourself.

          But what do I know.

    1. That comment about “the KJV copyright expiring not too long ago” may be the single craziest statement ever about the King James Version. And that’s saying a lot.

      1. Reminds me of a gag:
        I was speaking to a Lutheran bishop of my acquaintance, and I happened to say, “The concentration of Lutherans is much lower here in Texas than in the Midwest.”
        He answered, “We Texas Lutherans like to say that we aren’t as dense as the ones up north.”

        1. “Southern Baptist” churches were still called that (Iglesias Bautistas del Sur) when I was a missionary in South America. The comment: “How far south do you need to go to still be called a Souther Baptist?”

  1. Scary? In my world things like psychopaths and rabid wolves are scary not someone quoting you the wrong translation of an ancient script. This people really do need to remove their heads from their body cavities and get with reality.

  2. I don’t get it. I grew up in the Mormon church which is strictly KJV (plus some other extra books – ha!), but Mormons don’t actively preach against other bibles. I truly don’t understand all the energy that fundamental baptists put into attacking other versions. If we grant that other versions are evil (which seems insane to me, but whatever), aren’t there still like a million more diabolical things in the world to focus on besides this? Can someone please explain? This world is completely foreign to me…

    1. That this world is foreign to those of us who came from it is all too true. So we aren’t going to be able to explain it very well.

      But think of it this way. In order to please God you must be separated away from anything that has any connection to “the world” (aka “reality”). The more separated you are, the more godly you get to claim to be.

      And nothing says separation like reading Scripture in an archaic dialect. You spend all your time thinking in archaic terms and you won’t be able to understand the world around you. Which is a good thing, since God treats his creatures like the trash they are unless they are KJV-only.

      And of course, none of these ideas are to be found in Scripture. They exist to increase the following and influence of power-hungry self-proclaimed Men of God. No one gets closer to God following this tripe. No one loves their neighbor doing this. In fact, it adds up to strife and confusion and every evil work. And you get to cherry-pick verses, rip things out of context, hate and scorn other believers all for foolish pride.

      Great deal, eh?

    2. @ex mo, the argument is that blatant evil like voodoo is something easily avoided. Something subtler (like the ESV) may appear, like Satan, as an angel of light that will suck you in and deceive you until one day you wake up to the realization you’ve become a total reprobate. Thus, the more abstruse the transgression, the more diabolical is its nature.

    3. A bisexual man commissioned a Bible translation a few hundred years ago. For whatever reason, fundies decided that the version the Pilgrims didn’t use was what they should use. They said that the KJV was THE WORD OF GOD and anything else is wrong. You can’t argue with THE WORD OF GOD. That’s their self-perceived strong point. They proof-text (see yesterday’s post) to defend it; never mind that the verses they use don’t make sense, or that you can’t use your conclusion to prove your conclusion. If you use a different translation you change THE WORD OF GOD. If you change it you are guilty of heresy/blasphemy. Of course, the fact that fundies twist verses to mean what they want them to mean is completely lost on them.

      It’s a weird thing on many levels. As many here have pointed out, the 1611 version included the deuterocanonical books and a note by the translators that their rendering wasn’t perfect. These details are conveniently avoided by fundies.

      It is alleged that Jimmy commissioned the work so as to further his own theological ideas — that does fit in with fundy operations — but Anglicanism is a false religion according to fundies, so that’s a problem. Why use it? They may as well use a Catholic translation. (That was not meant to be a dig at the Catholics.) Also, given the fundy bent toward separating from others on the basis of padded pews, why they don’t separate from a known sexual deviant (I say that from a fundy POV, not my own) is something I can’t understand.

      In other words, fundies have elevated Jim’s Book to the status of deity, either as a way to define Jesus or as the fourth person of the Trinity. When you attack their position you are attacking their deity.

    4. The following is probably one of several explanations for KJV onlyism. I’ve observed that the IFB mind doesn’t function well in the grey zone…relative to any issue. Picking a version of the Bible and foolishly arguing that it (and no other) is the word of God keeps them in their comfort zone and out of unsettling discussions about what they emotionally need to be an unquestioned source of authority.

      1. exactly…fundamentalists of any sort do not like gray areas…they can only see black and white. When the world does not fit into their neat packages, they must declare it sin and to be avoided. That which they do not understand must be labeled heresy and blasphemy and then thrown out.

        1. This speaks to something I have been wondering about for a long time. Are people who see things black or white attracted to fundamentalism, or does fundamentalism do that to people?

    5. I’ve always thought it was funny that Joseph Smith “translated” the Book of Mormon into Elizabethan English. I assume it’s because that sounded more Bible-y.

    6. Thanks everyone for your responses! I was linked to this site a few days ago from an old comment on a scientology-related site, (The Underground Bunker) and I have already caught up on the last two years or so of posts 😉 It’s all so fascinating to me!

  3. This made me laugh out loud, then i started to cry because I just got back from the premier of “The Drop Box” and we bicker about such stupid stuff when there is such a real need for Love out in the world. It makes me sick.

  4. Satan – not busy enough with slavery, genocide, butchery – Nope! He’s busy slipping non-KJV Bible verses into the devotional book you thought was KJV. What a DEVIL!!!!!

  5. Dear Sonny Dense:

    Some people think that well educated opponents are a threat to orthodox Christian faith. I happen to believe that the real threat comes from those who are sure that they are Biblically orthodox but who are incapable of defending their profession.

    Christian Socialist

      1. It’s the sun’s rays refracting off of the water molecules in the mist. It’s perfectly natural. Just as a rainbow in the sky reflects and ultimately bends the light of the sunbeam in a whole mess of different directions from the water molecules in the clouds after a storm, so does the sun to the mist in a sprinkler 🙂 Beautiful act of nature, in my opinion.

        1. Miriam, that conspiracy theory should make you dumb enough even for a KJV-Only preacher boy.

    1. Can you spell “dumbed down” education? Is this the same lady who complained about the deer crossing signs attracting too many deer? Maybe they’re sisters.

    2. And they background noise sounds like such a peaceful neighborhood. I guess growing up our street was a testing ground for the governments future spreading of whatever they are spreading. We had rainbows in our sprinklers in the 60s.

      I hope the poor dear never visits Hawaii.

  6. I just left homework club at my church, where I helped three little English learners work on reading, science and math, while the other five did art and played. I saw this ridiculous KJV-only post and thought how much these people lose out on truly loving others because they are so busy with their trivial pursuits.

  7. I just left homework club at my church, where I helped three little English learners work on reading, science and math, while the other five did art and played. I saw this ridiculous KJV-only post and thought how much these people lose out on truly loving others because they are so busy with their trivial pursuits.

  8. I don’t even understand the accusation Mr Dense is making? Is he saying if you use a bible app on your phone and share a KJV verse on your FB/twitter feed that it will show up on your account as KJV, but other people will see other versions of that verse?

    1. I gather that he’s saying that the app sometimes shows Bible verses in the KJV on your phone, but the verses then show up in translations other than the KJV on other people’s phones when they read your social media posts,* so it’s a wolf in KJV-only sheep’s clothing. Rather than to sloppy code writing or sloppy text editing, he attributes this to a secret plot to humiliate good KJV-only Christians.

      * I am nowhere near curious enough about this to track down the app and see if really does what Brother Dense says it does.

      1. LOL! Yeah, I’m not at all going to experiment, but his accusation doesn’t make a lot of sense of what he’s saying happens. It reads like he was accidentally reading a diff version in an app shared it, and is blaming the app or facebook defensively.

  9. I think Mr. Dense more than likely doesn’t know how to change the settings on his Bible app.

    If only the KJV is God’s Word, then why care if it gets “attacked?” Shouldn’t it be able to hold up to the scrutiny, being perfect and all?

    And so what if someone reads your verse in another version? Most KJVO’s I know wouldn’t go so far as to say that one cannot be saved if they use another Bible version. Even for them, that seems like a stretch.

    1. Actually it isn’t a syrtch at all. I know a number people who would say just that. Are the people you know *hardcore* KJV-only, or are the compromisers like the rest of us?

    2. Jack Hyles taught that you can’t get good fruit from a corrupt seed and every version is corrupt except the KJV therefore you can only get saved using the KJV. If any other version was used then you weren’t saved and were going to hell.

      At my fundy church some friends found out my wife and I werent saved using the KJV. They tried to convince us to get “truly” saved and when we wouldn’t they refused to associate with us.

      1. Good grief. I’ve been away from the fundie camp so long I had not realized how far off the deep end they had plummeted. Methinks perhaps they may not be saved either, all hung up on a translation and not the gospel. “Lost in Translation”?

      2. That seems like a strange doctrine for Hyles to propound, since his central teaching was that saying the Sinner’s Prayer, something not found in the King James Version (or any other Bible version), is both necessary and sufficient for salvation.

    3. Late to the game here, but my father is one of the ones who believes you cannot be saved if a KJV Bible is not used. He also believes that if you do not say a prayer **out loud** (confess with your mouth is what he offers as a proof-text), you have not been truly saved.

      1. So a person who can’t talk is automatically damned?

        “No, I’m afraid it was no good. I gave him the gospel as he lay on his deathbed. His eyes lit up as he heard that Jesus loved him and paid for all his sins. But the feeding tube and air supply kept him from bein able to talk. He died without being able to “confess” so he is now in Hell.

        “No, no. You have to make your confession in Elizabethan English!

        For God so loved the World that He sent the King James Version, that whosoever readeth another version may go hence to the pit of eternal torment.

      2. FUNDAMENTALISMWASHELLFORME, some of my family is like that too. What gets my goat is their attitude that once you have made that confession with the mouth, doesn’t matter if you were five years old, you are theirs. Nothing can change that, unless they decide you were never saved at all because, by their fruits….. I had to laugh at my daughter after we left the fundies being told by a super annoying relative that he was praying for her by name. She responded with, ”What? You don’t pray for the skinny, brown haired, freckled girl? How will God know who you are talking about!”

  10. This is just plain STUPID. I have friends who don’t know Christ, and I more concerned about their souls than about non-kjv verses being inserted into readings.

    1. Paul, you are right, of course. But this little issue or “issue” for the KJV-only folk illustrate well a weakness in fundamentalism.

      They focus on stupid things! They have so separated themselves from reality that they can’t understand the issues real people face, or what salvation should be doing in one’s life. There are all these external forms and positions and beliefs necessary to please God, but being practical never enters their mind.

      Why be concerned that your neighbors have physical food to eat when they are reading from the NIV? That physical food will only treat physical hunger. They need to know God loves them for eternity–and they need to know it quick cause they are going to starve to death!

      You can make any selfish, mean, wicked idea seem like a spiritual grace if you dress it up enough. (Probably a good idea for a future SFL!).

      In my opinion, it is an indication that they don’t experience grace in their lives. They belong to a cult.

  11. I went to his FB page and found this. He has changed the words of Jesus. I deleted a comment someone else made in response.

    Red sky in morn’, sailors be warned.
    Like · Share

    2 people like this.

    Sonny Dense You’ll have to tell the author. I was plagiarizing.

  12. How about Mr. Dense’s avatar? It looks like an American flag with an eagle and a smaller Israeli flag with the words “Stand with Israel”.

    I think that was one of the flag designs that the Founding Baptists™ drew up in 1776. Not sure why it didn’t make the final cut?

      1. No. Ayatollahs aren’t good allies, either. But Israel is totally manipulative. It isn’t a good ally. It takes and demands and denies rights to its own persecuted minorites, promotes retaliatory violence, etc.

        Israel should recognize there are consequences to their policies. The best thing we could do for them and the world is to stop trying to dictate terms and policies and let nations learn from their mistakes as we start learning from our own.

        We like to think of US policy as “good”, but it often isn’t. We play with bad guys for the fun and profit of big business.

      2. Israel, as currently politically constituted, is a rogue state run by a ruthless thug (Netanyahu).

        The fact that assholes run Iran doesn’t change the nature of the Israeli government, nor the shameful fact that we in the U.S. allow the Netanyahu’s rogue government to dictate our own foreign policies.

      3. “Calling Netanyahu a thug doesn’t actually make him one.”

        I couldn’t have said it better myself. There’s no way I can make Netanyahu a thug. He did that himself, before I was even born.

      4. Hello Brian, E, aka Someone Else, the Big Stinker and what have you.

        You like the feeling of power you have in using my real name and disclosing my location?

        Do you think that makes you some kind of hero, hiding in fear behind your own anonymity?

        I am unashamed of my comments. But look everyone! I have my own personal stalker! I suppose he doesn’t have a life, so needs to latch on to someone.

        Stick around, sonny boy. You might learn something.

      5. It’s very convenient from the safety and anonymity of where you are to condemn others.

        And the difference between what you claim they are doing and what you are doing is………………….?

      6. Brian, Israel was created by stealing their lands and livelihoods, and has hurt them far worse than ever they could be hurt. In the last encounter, less than a dozen Israelis died, but thousands of Palestinians died — including women and children.

        Israel has blockaded food and medicine. They have treated the Palestinians every bit as bad as Israelis were treated in Germany — with the exception of the gas chambers. They have broken every humanitarian promise made to the Palestinians.

        If you I were a Palestinian, living under the curse of Israel, what loving and caring advice would you have for me? Or my family? For the livelihoods lost, for the innocent women and children killed, for the little ones that go hungry?

        Huh, big guy? Fix it with your wisdom.

        1. It has occurred to me that Israel is doing what the goof ok’ U S of A did a couple of hundred years ago, and what my own Protestant ancestors did in the Northern part of Ireland even before that…
          Let him who is without sin….
          Maybe history has to keep repeating itself because nobody effing listens

        2. God is always on the side of the winners, that is one of the problems with history, the winners write it.

      7. Thank you for not answering the question. You have no answer, only scurrilous accusations.

        Darrell, I hate to ask. But can we block this one? If not, I will put up with the troll. But he is an unnecessary bother, he knows it, and he delights in it. I will, at the least, try to ignore him from now on.

      8. rtgmath,
        Have you been found by an old enemy from Unusual U or from your Fundy past? My guess would be Fundy past due to the lack of logical thought and the beat a dead horse mentality.

        1. It is quite possible. I wouldn’t know who, though.

          Usually my enemies are upset that I may know more than them and may have told them they were wrong about something.

          Sometimes it isn’t even that. I “made an enemy” at my workplace when they saw a Huffingtonpost contribution of mine in which I supported a woman’s right to choose. The person never came out directly to tell me, but I was informed by other sources. The Lord knows I’d never treated her with disrespect or lack of collegiality.

          I am not always the most tactful, but I am not malicious. My most prepossessing fault is probably cluelessness about how some value their preconceptions and misinformation. I am used to challenging my own preconceptions and often do so publicly with my ruminations. You’ve read several.

          I have attracted some malicious enemies, though, who consider my ability to express myself, think cogently, and ask questions they cannot answer to be a threat to them. Oh, and they think me arrogant because I know things and don’t fall prey to a lot of the misinformation out there. Academics are easy prey to the charge of arrogance, and I may be. But I would rather know what I know, be able to research what I don’t, and form an opinion based on evidence than be led about by the nose like some people.

          And I happen to be very open, tending to believe the best about others until demonstrated otherwise.

          Have I properly hung myself, yet? I guess I do walk into the public light without thinking of protecting my back.

          I don’t know if I have ever met K, Someone Else, or whatever his moniker is. Nothing about him or his speech prompts my memory. So if someone from my past is picking up on an argument or squabble, I have forgotten it. I tend not to let such people have a permanent foothold in my life, if I can help it.

      9. No paranoia at all. I wouldn’t have thought of it if I hadn’t been asked.

        Ruminating is my way of putting things into balance, doing self-assessment, deciding whether or not an apology is in order should I be offensive. And I am quite open about the process. People get to see the real me.

        So, you are just being nasty entirely on your own hook? How Christlike of you.

        Some years back a couple of Palestinian families moved close to my wife’s parents. They were from the Bethlehem area. My children played with them when we were there.

        One time we went, we heard the oldest daughter was in the hospital. My children sprang into action, writing cards, buying toys and a basket to put them in. It was given to the father and asked to take it to her so she would know her friends loved and missed her.

        Next trip back, the children were playing, and the father came and got me, brought me into his house, and kissed me on both cheeks. He said, “My house is your house. Never has anyone in America treated us like you have.” He told us stories of where they lived, of family, of hardships. I listened and I learned.

        A month later he had to leave to go back to Palestine. But I will always remember.

        His cousin was able to stay a little while longer. I presented him with a Bible in Arabic, and he gave me a Quran in English.

        They were representatives of a good, proud people. They deserve fair treatment and a future.

      10. Someone Else – No one here is blaming all the violence on Israel. The responsibility is shared between the Palestinians and the Israelis. It is a classic never-ending circle of violence. Atrocities have been perpetrated by both sides. Neither side is right. Neither side is wrong.
        Yet for some bizzaro-fantasy-world reason, if you don’t love everything Israel does then you don’t love America and aren’t a Christian.
        I wish for one day that you and every other Israel-loving person could live as a Palestinian in the West Bank or Gaza Strip. Then you might understand what it is like to live in fear. Having to pass through checkpoints to go to work, a wedding, a funeral etc. Or maybe that day the soldiers don’t let you pass through the checkpoint and then you miss your day of work, the wedding or the funeral. Then you get to stay in your “land” and maybe if you are lucky, Israel decided to let the water flow to your area so you can get something to drink, or wash yourself.

        On a side note – My initial response was twice as long as above but I am not sure if you are 100% legit. I am thinking you might be a poe. If you are not a poe, then you are a poor representation of the deity you claim to follow.

      11. “Denying Israel the right to defend herself,”

        Israel should try defending itself, instead of trying to rope us into fighting wars for it, and funding their defense with US money.

        Just for starters they could drop the idiotic charade that they don’t have nuclear weapons.

      12. “Israel is not equally to blame. To say so is to take the side of terrorists.”

        Israel was founded by terrorists. Learn some history.

        Why should the country that bombed the USS Liberty, a US Navy ship, be considered such a great friend?

      13. I am pro-Israel, in a general way, but I refuse to worship the nation and praise God for everything they do, which is what a lot of Christians do, not just Fundies. They think Israel can do no wrong. I go back to the Scriptural account and I see that actually, God’s Chosen People screwed up more often than they got it right. Then I wonder if much has changed in 2000 years.

        1. Thing is (and I’ve said this before), people confuse the Biblical Kingdom of Israel and the modern State of Israel. They are NOT one and the same, and the fact that they happen to occupy sort of the same territory does not make them so. Personally, I don’t think that they have the protection of the hand of God that the ancient Kingdom did, and there is no reason the try them any different from any other Middle Eastern country. They’ve behaved much like the US in the 19th century- pushing the residents of the territory they wanted out of it, eventually putting them on reservations and treating them terribly. I cannot blame the Palestinians for retaliating. Israel should be ashamed of what they’ve done, and there is no good reason why we should be paying them to continue to exist by bullying their neighbors. We’ve throw millions at the situation, and frankly, they need to grow up and pay their own bills. Time to cut off their allowance.

  13. My IFB KJV-only pastor once said that if everyone in the world obeyed any of the Bible versions completely then what a peaceful loving world we would have.

      1. I’m not sure, but a lot of KJV-only pastors, (and missionaries, and lay people) might be like that. KJV-only, because that’s what they’ve been taught, but not so strict that they can’t admit there’s some good in other versions too.

  14. If you read a verse from a version instead of THE TRUE ONLY WORD OF GOD BIBLE, you may slip into sins like letting a man’s hair touch his collar or a woman wearing trousers. Next is wine with dinner, dancing, and then the unspeakable act.
    And that’s just married folks. It could lead to really bad evil in others.

    1. If you think it’s tough being a Baptist with all the crazy standards, try having your family go Mennonite on you. That’ll throw you a curve, I guarantee ya. Oh, and that’s because the conservative, independent, fundamental, kjv-swearing-by peeps are, wait for it… “too wordly!”

      1. George,I was raised closed Plymouth Brethren. All those worldly, proud, wicked Baptists. Some of the women had, gasp, short hair! They also used musical instruments in worship. Oh the evil.

  15. You’re all missing the point. You see, Sonny, is in grave sin for even using a Bible app that thinks any other version other than the KJV is allowable, when WE KNOW IT’S NOT! Repent Sonny, you asked for the devil to come at you!!

    Lol, j/k. Poor Sonny gettin’ messed with.

  16. This news is so shocking that I think I just saw a piece of the sky fall to earth!!! And I find it quite humorous that they think this is the work of Satan when they completely miss the larger point that he has completely warped their minds. Then again, sin’s deadliest power is its ability to blind us to its presence in our lives.

  17. Satan’s ultimate plan is to trick you into reading false “scripture” that 90% of Christian people view as scripture. Yep there’s nothing satan wants more than for you to read the Bible

  18. It seems like the treat the KJV like a talisman – both powerful, yet in need of protection. And they act like without it their faith would crumble.

    Or maybe I’ve just been reading too much mythology…

  19. I had no idea there were Poes on Facebook now. I guess I should have seen that coming. Here’s a question, if you know or have a pretty good sense that someone is actin’ a Poe, why do you engage him as if he is real?

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