210 thoughts on “Men!”

        1. weecalvin1509,

          I was referring to the hover text, and I’m sorry I offended you.

          Alexander

      1. Heh, heh. Several years ago, I was with an Arkansas family of my acquaintance. The senior man in the group said to his young niece, “There’s no more sweet tea.” With an extremely sympathetic expression, she replied, “Oh, I’m sorry. How terrible for you.”
        He looked crestfallen. Apparently he had expected her to jump up and make her completely able-bodied uncle some tea. She didn’t.

        1. When my wife and I were engaged, we underwent the dreaded IFB “premarital counseling” as a prerequisite to having our wedding in the church. The Oklahoma pastor who did the counseling was (and had) a huge ass.

          One memorable counseling session consisted of him having us over to his house for lunch so we could see what a good Christian family looked like. While we were there, he drained his glass of tea, rattled the ice cubes in the glass, turned to his wife and said: “you know what that sound means in Oklahoma? It means it’s time for you to get me some more tea.”

        2. Maybe she was fed up with male chauvinism and actually said, “There’s no more, Sweetie,” meaning that he would be sleeping on the couch that night.

        3. Did the wifie poo say “okay, Archieeee….” and scramble off giggling to get the frest brew of tea??

        4. Obviously a pastor who doesn’t understand that sweetened tea is an excellent vehicle for a variety of poisons.

        5. What is it with southerners and sweet tea? I personally find it revolting. When I lived in Florida, I sampled some sweet tea at a restaurant, and I wasn’t right for the rest of the day.

          Oh, and men are completely capable of getting their own sweet tea.

        6. Ahab, there are lots of controversial things discussed on SFL, but I believe you just crossed the line. 😉

  1. Fundamentalism has elevated chauvinism into a virtue. At best women are to be helpmeets and producers of sons. At worst they are a source pg temptation to the good Christian (man). I don’t think Jesus would agree but who cares about that?

      1. Actually, this is pretty close to the Biblical order, when you look at Leviticus.

        Adult males were at the top. Male children, but especially the firstborn son (there were no firstborn daughters!) came next.

        Remember your history, how that slaves were counted as three-fifths of a person for taxation and representation purposes in the Constitution? That has a Biblical basis, only it wasn’t slaves. It was women. For people or property that were consecrated to the Lord, a “valuation” was given. The value of a female was consistently three-fifths the value of a male. Read about it in Leviticus 27.

        John really hated women who thought they could lead. The letters to the seven churches has references to women leaders as prostitutes and killing those who associate with them.

        So misogynistic IFB groups are just walking the walk.

        1. What about the book of 2 John? Or is it a different John who is writing to the elder lady of the church?

        2. I don’t agree with the misogynistic interpretation of Revelation – scholars generally agree (not evangelical scholars, but still) that the Johanine community was essentially egalitarian. There are also plenty of men who get raked over the coals in Revelation. However, to answer your other question, it is generally assumed that the Johanine works were produced by the Johanine community, or sect, not necessarily by a single author, let alone the same author.

        3. Tiecey, there’s scholarly agreement that the writer of John’s epistle’s and John of Patmos weren’t the same guy. Some traditionalists and fundies still insist that pretty much everybody named “John” who wrote a book (except John Mark) was John the Apostle.

      1. She plays the pie-anna, the fiddle, the harp, the saxophone, and the tambourine! Plus she sings in the background where her M.O.G. told her that is where her place is!

  2. Looks like a typical IFB church where three of the five staff members are related to one another. And then when you go to the college page, it’s interesting to see how many staff appear to be married couples.

    And I love the not so subtle message about what to wear:

    What should I wear?
    The truth of the matter is, there is no strict dress code for our public services! We want you to be comfortable and ready to concentrate on the message of God’s Word. Many in attendance will be wearing their “Sunday best” – the men in dress shirts and dress slacks, typically with a tie, and the women in appropriate dresses.

        1. I find that interesting as well.

          My former fundy CEO would literally preach that men should wear a suit and tie (along with polished shoes), but would say next to nothing about women’s attire. As a matter of fact, one of his go-to-gals would wear capris to his little kingdom and nothing was said because (I’m assuming) it would offend her if he did say something and he would no longer get the free slave labor.

          I guess pragmatism is ok when it’s the MOG who is being pragmatic…otherwise it’s compromise.

          There is so much more I could say, there just isn’t enough time for me to waste.

          B.R.O.

    1. SFL poster: Reading sinister implications into everything.

      C’mon! The “What should I wear” is just an honest statement; no subtlety present. Many people don’t want to stand out and want to know what everyone else will be wearing. It’s a helpful comment. Period. No subtle hints; no hidden meanings.

      1. Sorry GR – Grace Baptist is the bible kawledge that the churches I went to affiliated with. They are absolutely going to judge you based on what you wear. Man worship is very evident. I know, I am ashamed that I used to take part in it. The church and kawledge is run by the great Jonny Jenkins and his 1 hour and 15 minute sermons. Oh wait, I forgot to call him Dr. Jenkins. He earned that honorary degree. Image is everything in Gaylord, MI.
        And note the wording of their dress code…”women in appropriate dresses”. They expect women to be in a dress. Period. Done. End of story. Legalism at its finest.

      2. It’s very honest — this is what everyone is wearing and you should, too. “If you don’t wear this you will stick out and probably be uncomfortable” is the message that isn’t explictly stated but inherently understood. Sometimes ex-fundies see the devil behind every tree because the fundies put them there. We know the tricks. “We don’t care what you wear” but as soon as you join the man has to wear a tie to choir practice because to not wear one is EVIL. “Soul liberty” is simultaneously touted as peer pressure to conform is exerted. Just because a person is paranoid doesn’t mean someone isn’t out to get him.

        1. I don’t deny at all that some IFB churches judge people as “unsaved reprobates” if they don’t dress like everyone else.

          Nor do I deny that this church may practice that bad habit (I don’t know; I’ve never been there).

          What I am saying is that there is nothing sinister in the answer. I can remember a couple of occasions in which I wasn’t sure what was appropriate to wear, and so I really wanted to know what others were wearing. It is helpful. Churches these days have a wide variety of dress; I’d hate to wear jeans and a t-shirt if all of the men were in suits & ties; likewise, I’d hate to be wearing a suit & tie if the pastor was preaching in a Hawaiian shirt. Some people don’t like to stand out. Many years ago, a good friend visited my church; afterwards, he remarked that he felt uncomfortable because his hair was longer than the other men. To the best of my recollection, nothing was said about it, and he wasn’t treated badly by anyone.

        2. Don’t even get onto the topic of tattoos…
          Jesus was constantly getting up the noses of the Religious Morality Polices for not following their petty rules. There is nothing to suggest in the Bible that he dressed in a suit and tie to go to the Temple or Synagogue, but, then again, lots of Finsies believe He would have worn a suit and tie every day, like a Godly person would….

      3. While we were travelling across Michigan, actually not very far from this church, we stopped to drop off a friend with her family. They were at Sunday night service and we arrived right at the end.

        My wife went in to use the facilities, and happened to be in a pair of jeans. Not one person spoke to her, and she was getting the sidelong glances from everyone. (we call that the stinkeye where I’m from)

        In fundyland it goes way beyond “how will most people dress” to “here’s how you should dress if you are godly” and its absolutely legalism even if the deacons don’t do dress check at the door. Refusing to speak to someone, or speaking to them and assuming they are unsaved or have not been discipled if they aren’t dressed like your little cult is absolutely inappropriate no matter how you try to spin it.

        1. That’s how you would have been treated at our former church, too, if you showed up in jeans — you heathen woman, you!

        2. Very well said.

          I remember the mentality from my younger years that if a woman was wearing pants, then “She probably isn’t saved…” UGH!

          Unfortunately, until I woke up… I believed it. It’s sad that they teach their kids stuff like that. We looked down our noses at everybody. I knew nothing of the love of God.

      4. GR–while I haven’t run in IFB circles, I’ve been in enough conservative evangelical circles to get the point. If how you dressed wasn’t an issue or there weren’t expectations, there would be no reason to post such a question. There’s nothing on our website about how anyone should dress when they come to Oasis because it doesn’t matter.

        I just think it is laughable that people can read a passage like 1 Samuel 16:7 and then get caught up on dress codes. And if they’re so concerned about “biblical” standards, they should explicitly state that garments of mixed fabric aren’t permissible.

        1. Yes.

          And no one should wear a garment made of something that wasn’t in existence in the old days. So nylon, polyester, and spandex are out.

        2. I have had fundies who, when confronted with that verse have said “You see – Man looks at the outer appearance – that is why we have a dress code! You have to be concerned about the testimony your clothes display, and don’t forget their effect on the ‘weaker brothers’.” You can’t win.

          Now Lady Semp if you outlaw polyester what are the fundies gonna wear?

        3. Maybe I’ve been misled but I always believed that when Jesus died, the rules changed. If we still have to live in the Old Testanent , why did He even bother?

        4. @PaulBest: our obligation to the law to obtain righteousness has been abolished because of Christ’s crucifixion, and most Fundies would likely agree with that statement…though oddly they still cherry pick portions that serve their own purposes…like stoning or executing homosexuals

    2. I dropped the coat and tie years ago. Had one on for my son’s wedding, and will likely wear one to a job interview when it comes.

      But otherwise? No.

      People in Christ’s day did not dress up in their finery to go to church (or the tabernacle or the temple) unless they were rich and wanted to show off. Jesus rather rebuked that sort of thing anyway! James certainly did.

      So much of the focus in IFBdumb is on the externals. It is rather like taking a bath and expecting the bath to cure cancer. I suppose it worked for Naaman, but it is not a model for spiritual living.

  3. In all fairness, this is the name of the male singing group sent out by the college to promote the college.
    This has nothing to do with excluding women. The name has a contextual meaning.
    There are actual real fundy issues, we don’t need to invent controversy.

      1. Maybe it should be “persons of grace”.

        Regardless, this reminds me of an old joke many of you have probably heard (which you’ll see works better verbally than written).

        If a chairman is now a chair person, a congressman is now a congress person, etc. what do you call a mailman, a person person? See mail… male.. person, oh, never mind.

        1. Perhaps “Children by Grace,” “Saved by Grace,” “Adopted by Grace,” or “Chosen by Grace”

          When they call themselves “Men of Grace” is sounds like they’re the givers of grace rather than the beneficiaries of God’s grace.

        1. Now I can see the little old man running around in the town! The good ole’ days when I thought Benny Hill was hilarious. Of course, no self respecting IFB member would be caught watching that! Maybe someone should make a video of one of the elite pastors chasing skirts to this music! Just saying …….

  4. Looks like a fundy church. Oddly enough I went back to my fundy place this week for a funeral and the stress I felt pulling in the drive was amazing. So glad to have shed the anti-grace weight.

    1. This is a great comment. When I first “came out from among them and got me separate” I used to have some doubts about the path I was on. Returning – even driving by – put all that to rest. The sheer dread settling like a heavy blanket on one’s soul was enough to reinforce my choices.

  5. Well, personally, I think you should give Grace Baptist Church credit for being broad-minded enough to let one of the members of their all-male quartet dress as a woman if he wants to.

    #non-discriminatory #transgenders welcome

    1. Genius. Pure Genius! Of course it has to be that. She is not being ignored. She is the Mistress and they belong to her!

      The whip, the black high-heeled boots and the mask were not considered appropriate for the album picture.

    1. Michigan is known as “Schaap Territory”. How many IFB kids from Michigan were sent or “called” to attend HAC and listen to Schaap ramble on girls in blue jeans and CCM music??

      1. Ironically King Tommy was not a Hyles or Schaap man. We had a family in our church that was a big “Hyles worshipper”, though, so he would always tread lightly. At one point, he had made the remark to my husband and me that he was not this family’s pastor — Hyles was.

        1. King Tommy was one of Trieber’s buddies, though. They were “roomies” in college. He was also tight with Greg Baker from Canada — the one who committed suicide.

        2. Sure he was. He had Schapp in every year for their huge teen conference. After the fallout, he made a strong power play to take over the position of Pope himself.

    1. Okay, GR, mad props for bending over backwards to assume the best about these people! I would agree with you though that if she is the pianist it is highly unusual to give her top billing along with the vocalists. Not the typical way these groups are usually promoted.

      1. Such churches are not completely immune to criticism; I’ve noticed in the past a tendency to feature the singers and ignore the others who are just as important to the group. There has been a tendency lately to also introduce the pianist and others (some groups carry their own sound equipment and sound men with them).

      1. this works especially well for Michigan cause there like Wisconsin, Ohio, etc they speak quickly and mash words together so these words absolutely sound identical almost every time.

  6. I guess here’s a thought. If she is actually part of the singing group, then “Men of Grace” is a poor name choice. If she is “just the pianist” then why is she in the picture?

    I mean, singing groups don’t put all their back up singers and instrument players on the cover of their CD’s. There are so many examples, but I’m just gonna use Merle Haggard. Is it wrong for him not to put his keyboard, sax, bass, and drum players on the cover of his CD?

    I would say that I don’t believe this is one of the big, deep issues in the conservative, holiness church today. I suppose it could be part of one of the big problems. Jesus commanded His disciples (and us) to love each other. So if we are putting anyone (man OR woman) to the side as if they don’t matter, we aren’t loving them.

    1. This picture, this group, isn’t one of the big problems facing fundamentalism. Misogyny is, and this picture is just one of many, many examples of it.

  7. Some poking around reveals that Men of Grace is a male trio from Grace Baptist College. I personally see no issue with naming a male trio “Men of Grace”, but I’ll admit the picture of the trio with their female pianist under the title “Men of Grace” is a little awkward.

    I see no sensible solution except to not include the pianist in the picture – is that really better? Trying to fix the title would be no less awkward. “Men of Grace and Their Pianist”?

      1. Hm. I have to admit – I’m spoiled. My wife is absolutely gorgeous, and other women just kind of look plain next to her. But I won’t apologize for marrying up – all men do, if we’re honest.

    1. They feature her prominently, while omitting any reference to her. Had the men been featured up front with her off to the side or behind the piano it would not have been such a glaring omission.

      One more thing: had she not been pretty I think it is safe to say they would not have featured her at all. The tour group’s purpose is to recruit, after all.

      In my former church choir the ladies front row was selected by appearance (and height, of course). Certain pretty ladies were asked to always be up front.

  8. She’s obviously the pianist, not that makes it less awkward. Oklahoma Baptist College had a men’s tour group come through my old church once that was a trio and acapella. Guess they couldn’t even find a girl to play let alone a guy.

    One thing you can add to the list of “appropriate” roles for Fundy women is playing piano, and oddly it a man who plays seems out of place. As a guy who plays piano (not great but serviceable) I always found myself in a strange minority even in Bible college. Pianists are simply supposed to be women for some reason. I remember jokingly thowing my hands up mock shock when they always asked if there a lady who could play.

    I became the church pianist by default a few years after bible college. I felt it as an opportunity to minister through music. It was however viewed by the pastor as a step down that a “preacher” stoop to being a church pianist. Then again, nothing I did ever pleased him. Except maybe leaving.

    1. Yes, the bullying of male pianists is extreme in the IFB. It is regarded as one step above being gay. I played, and played well, and the pastor’s wife (who actually was usually a pretty cool, non-IFB person most of the time) once asked me if I was sure that when I got married, I would marry a girl! (Honestly, in spite of the nasty question, she probably was the only person in the church that wouldn’t have cared if one of the young people did come out as gay.)

      Our regular pianist was a man, but it was okay because his wife played the organ. But their adult son who no longer attended church was mercilessly (and falsely) accused of being gay.

      The male keyboardist (don’t ask) at Southwest Baptist Church in Oklahoma City who is blind, was accused of groping students during music lessons at Heartland Baptist Bible College. Given his vision impairment, it’s possible some unwanted/unintentional contact may have occurred. I don’t know. Pretty much destroyed his life, though.

      1. I remember hearing about that keyboardist at Heartland in OKC. Plus I recall hearing that Jim & Tom Vineyard openly made fun of him too which isn’t surprising given Jim Vineyard’s track record. I think the Vineyards were jealous he chose Heartland over OBC-Prison camp.

        1. He was extremely talented and extremely weird. Not a good combination for the IFB. What made me mad was that they fired him but continued to sell (and make money off of) the CDs he had recorded. I doubt very seriously that he ever saw a penny of that money.

        2. People are figuring out why Jack Trieber has Alvin Martinez/GSBC Choral Group/NVBC singers to continue to make records. Because Trieber keeps all the money and it promotes his radio station

      2. I think a lot of this anti-male pianist originates with Jack Hyles – there is a (well-known?) story of him savaging a young man who played a special at a church where he (JH) was speaking – calling the skill “sissified” and other such names. Well, as he was “the man” in those days, many other churches and pastors blindly followed and mocked men who could play the piano.

        In my former church, there was a man who was very talented at the piano… but, in true Hyles form, he was savaged by the leadership, and to the dismay of his friends, he pretty much abandoned the piano.

        1. BG: Yes, but it was “the One True Church” of the truth, and leaving = backsliding.

          But he’s not there anymore — but he has not taken up the piano again (sadly).

    2. I’m reminded of the TV exposé (featured here previously) of the Fundy school where the boy who wanted to play piano had to take lessons in secret, and when the school found out, he was persecuted savagely.

    3. I play the harp. Not very well, but I enjoy it. Specifically the Irish harp. But I would like to play one of those big pedal/concert harps. I think most harpists in orchestras, and performers on the Irish Harp have been female. Anyone who suggests that my desire to play the harp means I must be gay is going to need a good dentist. Besides, one of my heroes is Harpo Marx and he was as far from being gay as anyone can be…

    4. Well, I’m a male who had “played that fundy music” on the piano for a very long time, and I’ve never really understood this thing about the fundy expectation that piano players should be female, though I’ve certainly noticed it. Maybe it goes back to the Olde English “virginals”, though again one wouldn’t expect fundies to trace their history back there. Unless it’s a King James kind of thing. Any ideas, anyone?

      1. It may go back to the expectation that the pastor’s wife will be the church pianist. Since IFB churches have no woman pastors (that I know of), and since IFB churches don’t recognize same-sex marriage, that means pianists are ladies.

      2. I have played the piano all my life in ifb churches, and I sing extremely high tenor (up to an f above high c), but no one has ever wondered if I was gay.
        My music teacher in college came out of the closet a few years after I graduated. A couple of my friends, who ended up as pastor and assistant pastor, left their wives after several years of marriage (with children) to pursue the gay lifestyle. Ironically, none of these played the piano!
        I do know a man who has struggled quite a bit with his self image, because, as a teenage boy who loved playing the piano, he heard Phil Kidd preach that if a young man desired to play the piano, he must be homosexual! I wish I’d have been there, so I could have straightened him out!

        1. I don’t recall anyone ever insinuating that I was gay because I play the piano. Not at all where I thought my comment would lead to, but I’m glad I’m not the only one that has noticed something odd going on. I’ve always gotten a lot of positive feedback from non-leaders in churches.

          I have also struggled with some self image issues because I never matched the Fundy molds for manhood or ministry. The general message that there is something wrong with you if you aren’t like Example A, B, or C drives me crazy. Especially when faults are glorified as virtues. My belief is that it is weak leadership that attempts to strengthem itself through keeping others down.

        2. I think it might have something to do with Fundystan’s extremely strict gender roles. Some things, like cooking, cleaning, making (sweet) tea, maybe even playing the piano (the only musical instrument allowed on fundy churches) is seen as wimminz work. If you a are a man who wants to do wimminz work, well, it’s obvious…..

      3. Maybe it comes from 18th century education standards, which held that women should learn piano along with French, deportment, and other subjects useful to coming across as cultured and refined.

  9. That is why the IFB will NEVER modernize because they want the 1920s wife in a dress, high heels, children all neatly aligned awaiting Daddy’s arrival home from work. She greets him with a smile, a peck on the cheek and a martini. All the children greet Daddy and then remain quiet the remainder of the night.

    What a daydream! Our former pastor — good ol’ King Tommy — was the same way. After I spent hours of my personal free time (which I never charged the church for) networking all the computers, printers, and copier in the church and school — King Tommy announces to his son-in-law (the Christian day school principal) and the entire congregation that a new couple has joined the church, and he was a computer guy so they FINALLY had someone to run the network!

      1. Oh yeah, you’re right — my Catholic upbringing got confused with the IFB garble! Catholics would have had the martini — IFB — DEFINITELY sweet tea! Well, you never know, there may have been something else in that sweet tea! I KNOW we had some drinkers in our former IFB — closet drinkers.

        1. I was at a wedding this weekend at a very conservative church where the grooms brother offered my and my husband some”Red Bull” at the reception. My husband partook, I did not, because I’m nursing. Then we put stinkbait in the couple’s car and wrote dirty things on the windows. The “Red Bull” helped.

    1. She’s the band’s secretary……..administrative assistant. She sells the records at the churches and bakes the cookies and puts extra butter milk in them if Tony Hutson is the guest speaker!!! HAY-MAN

  10. Or could it be just an anachronistic name? As in, they’ve finally come around and allowed women into the group, but they’re sticking with tradition and keeping the name of the group “Men of Grace?” Sort of how my wife went to Male High School, which is still called Male High School, though it’s been co-ed for many decades?

    Eh, probably not.

        1. Whaddaya know? She grew up in the ‘ville, but we’re in Lexington now. Make it back that way occasionally.

  11. You know, these kids all look pretty cozy there on that couch. Hope Ms. Pianist is married to the guy sitting next to her because I don’t see no six inches of ease (or whatever the proper nomenclature is). Then again, given the fact that the IFB is the last bastion of anti-miscegenation in these United States, I doubt her daddy and pastor would have allowed her marry someone with a dark complexion.

        1. The six-inch rule at Bob Jones’ Dating Parlor is famous the world over – or infamous. It is a rule worthy of scorn, and it receives it!

          When people all over the world think of Bob Jones University (and fundamentalism) with the 6″ rule context, you know someone has missed the point (and hint, it isn’t the ones criticizing it!)

          BTW, Darrell. My email seems to not be receiving notices of new posts or follow up comments (despite my clicking the box!). Is anything wrong with the server?

  12. Well if the girl in the picture wears “britches” that must make her a man in IFB world.

    Also, Grace Baptist has been graced with the Beloved Jack Schaap a time or two. There’s a sermon on YouTube where’s preaching at this church saying “Tonight there is a young Eddie LaPina in this auditorium”.

    As for the musical group, they better not play fast or have any instruments other than a piano and a fiddle.

    Tony Hutson said or it might have been the Pope Jack Hyles that said a church with drums on the platform should burn.

  13. Actually, this poster is accurate. Our fourth member is a man named Shelly who (years ago) underwent gender-transformation surgery and has since mended his ways (but not his clothing) by attending Grace Baptist Church.

    1. Okay, rtgmath, we understand that Fundamentalist men have their priorities upside down. Now why are there letters missing and how did you get your comment to print like that? Please don’t joke about inverting the keyboard or some other such nonsense.

      1. ˙ןoɹʇuoɔ ɟo ʇno ǝןʇʇıן ɐ ʇǝb oʇ buıʇɹɐʇs sı ʇsod sıɥʇ ʞuıɥʇ ı ‘ʎɐʍ ǝɥʇ ʎq ˙ʇןnɔıɟɟıp ʇɐɥʇ ʇou sı ʎןןɐǝɹ ʇı ˙sıɥʇ ǝʞıן

  14. I like the way they all wear the same costume. Reminds me of Boys2Men in the 90’s. It reminds me of that because 20 years ago was the last time everybody wearing the exact same thing was maybe cool.

    We’ll know for sure if they come out with Gaylord High Harmony.

    Pretty sure the woman is in the pic to butch it up. Let everybody know it’s not all dudes all the time.

  15. Looking at the pic, it sure doesn’t seem as if the girl is really happy. That is about as plastic a smile as I have seen, and the smile doesn’t match the rest of the facial expression. Two of the guys don’t seem to be enjoying themselves either. Only one has an expression that I would call “happy.”

    Which could present some interesting, if inappropriate thoughts. Still, on the cleaner side …

    So maybe the “Men of Grace” aren’t feeling the grace? Or aren’t giving it? Is the “group” still together?

  16. I do wonder if the roles were reversed, and a man was featured prominently while the ladies were seated as the gentlemen are in the picture, would the college have labeled the cd “Ladies of Grace”?

    I suspect they would not have.

  17. There is a lot of truth here, but are we being slightly nit-picky? I mean, the Dave Mathews Band is not listed as Dave and whatever his drummer’s name is.
    What else are they supposed to call it?

    1. Something that means “Lead person and the entire group” rather than “only the ones who can easily pee standing up are actually in the band, ignore the lady-parts-having person over there?”

  18. Well how ’bout that? I was at a fundy friend’s church in PA when this group sang. Never expected to see them so infamously posted here, lol! At that time they actually had a fourth dude with them– a kina “cool guy” with spiked hair and a penchant for that “wardly handraisin’ tarmfoolery”. Wonder if that isn’t the reason he “ain’t in his place serving God ainymawr with thaym.” Must say, they were fairly good singers.

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