Financial “Gurus”

With endorsements like this from the very elite of fudamentalism, how could you help but trust trust Thomas Kimmel’s financial ministry?

And when Alabama(PDF) and New Jersey(PDF) send out cease and desist orders because he’s running an unlicensed business offering consumer credit with used cars as collateral you can be sure that’s just persecution. Obviously.

And when he finally gets convicted of Conspiracy, Mail Fraud, And Money Laundering for running a Ponzi scheme then I guess that is just the Lord opening the door to prison ministry.

197 thoughts on “Financial “Gurus””

    1. This “financial” garbage promo just makes me feel so icky just reading about it. Add in these nutters and it’s a severe dose of icky and grossed out. I think I need to wash my eyes in bleach just from reading.

  1. I remember him visiting my former church, although I don’t remember his financial advice. Guess that’s probably a good thing, considering how he ended up.

      1. Sorry, can’t help you, I’m off to put a down payment on this bridge I just bought. It’s in Brooklyn. :razz:

  2. What’s with the ellipse in the sign? I don’t get it. Maybe they’re trying to emphasize the “yet” as in “Gah, aren’t you sick of that YET?” but using an ellipse here doesn’t do that, especially when it runs onto its own line.

  3. Anybody notice that the reason why people are supposed to get out of debt is so that they will have more money to give to the cause of Christ? Because that is the only thing we should spend our discretionary income on….

    1. And of course the only way to properly give God money is “through the pulpit” of the local IFB. Giving money to the local pregnancy center to help moms with surprise pregnancies, or to a scholarship fund for disadvantaged kids or to the local homeless shelter to actually feed and shelter the poor doesn’t count.

      And of course if you don’t give the Mog his money (ahem cough cough) Um — I mean give God his money (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) God will steal it back many times over through a car wreck.

      1. Your comment reminds me of the childrens’ book “If you Give a Mouse a Cookie.”

        If you give a MOG some money . . . he’s probably going to want a tithe to go with it.

        But if you give the MOG a tithe, then he’s going to want some faith promise to go with it.

        But if you give the MOG some faith promise, then he’s going to want some building fund to go with it.

        But if you give the MOD some building fund, then he’s probably going to want so special/bus/VBS/waive offering to go with it.

        Cut to a cartoonish illustration of a fat cat MOG drowning in cash while his exhausted congregation collapses in the foreground.

        1. My former fundie church called the money above any tithing “above and beyond giving.” When the MOG decided he needed a new toy, the money for that project was “above and beyond, above and beyond giving.” Supposedly it wouldn’t take away from the other projects. The pleas for cash never stopped. Every week they had their hand out for some new thing.

    1. He also wrote on the website that he wouldn’t have started going from church to church with this program if it weren’t for the advice of his preacher, Jack Hyles. So there’s that.

    2. Dear Scorpio:

      That occurred to me as well. PJ’s ‘live a debt-free lifestyle’ seems ripe from a guy who will spend years repaying his debt to society.

      Christian Socialist

      PS: Pastor Maddox’ church is ‘St. Catharine Baptist.’ At first I thought that the community must be ‘St. Catharine,’ but the town is ‘Bushnell.’ ‘Saints’ must be a new twist for Baptists.

      1. Why is it called “paying one’s debt to society” when society is paying for one’s room, board, and medical care?

        1. I don’t know which saint is the patron of fried chicken, but that’s who Baptists should name churches for.

        2. St. Lawrence (or Laurence, Lorenzo, etc.) is the patron saint of barbecue (or, some say, cooks in general). In classic iconography, he is usually shown holding a grill:
          http://catholiclight.stblogs.org/archives/ericimages/st_lawrence.jpg

          This is because he was martyred by being roasted to death on a gridiron. At one point, he supposedly said to his executioners, “Turn me over, I’m done on this side.”

          Google Images has a lot of pictures of this legend, but I like this one, where a henchman appeard to be basting St. Larry with sauce:
          http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wMeYR5w_wtk/TkH_YgHfmnI/AAAAAAAAAyM/UI-sUlqIeZA/s1600/4%2B-%2BS.%2BLawrence%252C%2BFresco%2Bin%2Bthe%2BSancta%2BSanctorum.jpg

        1. Actually, there is some weird attraction to the IFB specifically for former Catholics. My father was one. My former youth pastor was another. I think they’ve simply traded one form of guilt and works-based salvation for another. Catholic church is probably glad to be rid of people who never really understood Catholicism in the first place.

        2. It goes the other way, too. A good many former Fundamentalist Baptists become Catholics.

        3. I think they’ve simply traded one form of guilt and works-based salvation for another.

          Um, excuse me? We papists believe in Sola Gratia, thank you very much. It’s only Sola Fide and Sola Scriptura that we have trouble with…seeing as neither one of them is actually found in the Bible. (Details, details.)

          :D :D :D

    1. “Since MONEY and material possessions are the most talked-about subjects in the Bible…”

      WHAT THE LIVING FRACK?!?!?! AAAAARRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!1!1!3.14159!!!

    2. That’s delicious. With all the misuse of “literally” (which makes me figuratively go insane), here’s a case where “literally” accidentally is totally, literally accurate.

    3. So he’s been a member of 1st Baptist Hammond since 1980; a member of the deacon board of the church, and of the board of directors for HAC. Nice credentials. He can add Prisoner #4539875 to that impressive CV.

      1. Wow… I guess he learned from the masters (the Hyles extended family; Jack H, Dave, and Jack S. He was there for all of these scandals, and refused to let the facts speak to him about the corruption.

    4. Seriously David Delaney? Why didn’t you try to understand how investments work before recommending a con artist to your church? 12% with no risk? Foolish!!!

  4. The first step to living debt free is to stop wasting money on expensive graphic designers. You can design your own advertisements, for little to no cost, and almost no one will notice the difference!

  5. I know of an IFB church (over $700,000 in debt) whose pastor declared “this is a miracle” when the debt was brought down to $700,000. The “miracle” was that they could now refinance their massive debt at better terms.

    Isn’t that kind of shooting low? I think a more likely miracle would be to owe nothing. Better yet, wouldn’t it have been wise for the pastor so-called to have never led his people (sixty in attendance on average) to such great debt in the first place?

    When little men build their kingdoms on the backs of God’s people they demonstrate their true lack of character. They must, therefore, preach an Old Testament principle (tithing) as if it were a New Testament command.

    “Let us pray as we give his tithe and our offerings…”

    1. I suppose in a case like this “cutting it down to $700 K” is something of a miracle, considering these clowns. God Himself can’t recut baloney into filet migon. :roll:

    2. I can see calling raising someone from the dead, or calming the sea by word of mouth, or changing water into the best wine ever as “miracles.” But pastors manipulating people to giving from their retirements, savings, daily sustenance is no miracle.

      Perhaps the one dollar bills changed into one hundred dollar bills, and the pennies turned into gold bullion? Now, that would be a miracle!

      mir·a·cle
      [mir-uh-kuhl] Show IPA
      noun
      1. an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
      2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.
      3. a wonder; marvel. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/miracle

    3. “When little men build their kingdoms on the backs of God’s people they demonstrate their true lack of character. They must, therefore, preach an Old Testament principle (tithing) as if it were a New Testament command.”
      Excellent

  6. I still remember listening to financial people on Christian radio answering the question about the tithe coming off the gross or the net. I remember the guy from Crown ministries saying how God wasn’t an accountant, but it was clear he thought it should come off the gross. As a public school teacher with huge deductions for retirement, dues, and health insurance..my gross looks okay but my net basically pays the bills and puts us in the middle class. If I gave 10% on the gross we would not make ends meet. We would be putting ourselves into self-inflicted poverty. (Wait I know the answer next from these people–quit the union, and drop your health insurance..sign up for care and share instead.) Once upon a time, I used the envelope system and spent hours calculating if my utilities expenses were a good use of God’s resources. With all of these people, it seems to be all about maximizing the amount of money people are able to give. They think we should live debt free and in near poverty so that we can all give 10, 15, 20, or more percent to the church.

    1. Many of them wouldn’t object if you took out a second mortgage on your house to give more to their building funds, though.

      1. I heard of that happening where many congregants took out a second mortgage to pay for their new church building that looks more like a corporate headquarters than a church.

        1. This is not limited to the IFB. We have friends who attended (emphasis on past tense) a local evangelical church and the pastor asked them all to commit to not paying their electric bill one month and giving it to the church. His grounds were that in Oklahoma, when the temperature is above 100 degrees, the electric company will not shut off your power for non-payment, so you could give the money to the church and catch up on your utility bills later.

        2. I heard some time back about a pastor who preached that if you gave God your mortgage money, he would return it ten times over!

          I heard that Benny Hinn told people that they were healed of their diseases, so they could give their medicine money “to the Lord” (i.e. him).

          Me? I pledged a large gift to the Billy James Hargis crusades when I was a young man. It was significant, and it took me several months to complete the gift. The last few months of giving were especially tough, though. It had been revealed that Hargis had been having orgies with some of the young men and women at his American Christian College in Tulsa – even during the time of the crusade I attended! I only finished the gift because my mom told me I had promised the Lord, and He knew all about it before I made the the vow to give.

          Today? I wouldn’t have given another cent once I heard the news. I know that most “conviction of heart” is manipulation by the preacher, not the actual moving of the Holy Spirit.

        3. That plan collapses as soon as the temperature falls to 99.

          The predicted high here today is only 97, but I’m still not shutting off the AC.

    2. Yeah, my gross looks not too shabby until you subtract everything that comes out before the check gets sent over my way.

      One of the issues is the focus on money as the tithe/offering. Time, effort, application of your talents and gifts, and many other less tangible assets are much more valuable to the kingdom of God than your money. Even someone like you or me who might not have a great deal of wealth to contribute can be extremely beneficial to a ministry as long as it recognizes that value of non-monetary contribution. Thankfully I am part of a church that sees that value and is intentionally grateful for it. Its not just about who can provide the financial means to operate the church, but those who can reduce the operating costs and multiply the impact of the funds by applying their knowledge, experience, and labor to it.

      1. Quitting the union may soon be an option if the Supreme Court continues on the course it set for itself yesterday. And people still call it a “liberal, activist court.” *snort!!!*

        1. Ugh. It’s a court in the pocket of the corporations. It’s sad. Like George Carlin said, it’s called the American Dream because you gotta be asleep to believe it.

    3. Is quitting the union even an option?

      Are the retirement amounts discretionary? I have some control over what the retirement deductions are, and if I bump it high enough, my income will look very low, too.

      1. Not for me. I am 100% union strong. The union gave us the 40 hour week, due process, and employee rights. It also protects me against the possibility that one day people will want to run our public schools like a corporation and turn me out to pasture at age 50 cause I’m too expensive.

        1. I can understanding your choice to be in the union; it is, after all, your choice.

          I was just curious if you were allowed to quit the union.

          Personally, I think unions HAD a place in the past, but there seems to be a lot of job protection laws now. Mostly, unions seem (these days) to drive businesses bankrupt.

        2. @guiltridden,
          I live in a union state. So I would have to pay fair share dues regardless. There are cases in public ed (especially dealing with small towns and coaching) where people are drummed out in right to work states. Sometimes schools will find a reason to run out teachers who are too far up the pay scale, too…replacing them with a young teacher right out of college. Do that 4 times a year, they can save the school district perhaps 80 to 100 grand. Unions can go too far, too. But Most of my experience has been seeing the large for profit corporations spending big dollars to break the union.

      2. Oh, also-retirement. Teacher’s retirement is NOT voluntary in most states. It’s 7.5%. So that’s quite a chunk. (I can retire when I am 67…lol) It is a decent retirement, though. We also pay social security. (The nice thing is that as we pay into both, we can draw both at retirement) We also squirrel away about 100 a mo in a 403b, and 300 a month in an HSA. Other deductions of note include about 500 a month (my share) for health insurance…no dental…

        1. In Oklahoma, the republican-dominated legislature is threatening to switch from a defined benefit teacher retirement to a defined contribution model in which the state essentially runs a slightly-glorified 401K system for teachers instead of guaranteeing pension benefits.

        2. @DeaconsSon..of course. We are a favorite target of the right wing. What they really want is for public schools to just go away so they can send everyone to a private academy complete with their “Pacers” and ditto man handouts, they can pay anyone with a pulse ten bucks an hour to monitor computers and supervise testing. But can they inspire? Teach kids to think? Not WHAT to think, but to think for themselves? Of course, this is not part of the plan. They are driving people away from teaching. I have heard many stories how bartenders make a better living. They had better not mess with the retirement I have paid for in this state!

        3. Bean, my state switched over to a defined contribution retirement plan (=401K) for both teachers and all public employees. Those who hired after 7/1/2006 were in this new plan. Those who hired before that remained in the defined benefit plan. Many states are looking at doing this due to “unfunded pension liability”. This allegedly is due to bad actuarial work years ago. If your state changes over to defined contribution system you and your peers should remain in the current system. This is one reason you’re in the union, to make sure that the legislature doesn’t pull a fast one.

          In my state, the pension benefits are guaranteed in the state constitution, thus my benefits couldn’t be reduced.

        4. The problem, BJG, is that most “unfunded pension liability” calculations are based on “what if we had to pay everything we will ever owe anyone right now?” That’s a false question to start with. Pensions were based on the idea that new contributions and investment growth will cover existing benefits over time. People are being asked to ignore that fact so that big money people can get their hands on the pot of state pension money and control how it is invested.

        5. DS, You’re probably right. I’m just glad that I am old enough to have been in the defined benefit system for many years. The defined contribution system makes recruiting & retention of qualified employees awfully difficult.

  7. I was (thankfully) unfamiliar with this guy.

    Did he go only to IFB churches or did he speak in other churches as well?

    1. I sat through a “seminar” in 2007. I almost invested in his 12 percent return he was touting. Thankfully I didn’t. And a person I am close to was in the courtroom last week. It was said he had no clue at all that what was going on was illegal. I guess that is what they all say.

      1. How could anyone possibly guarantee a 12% return on investment? That should’ve been everyone’s first clue that this was “Bro” Bernie Madoff, invited by their dear MoG.

        1. If you’re running a legal investment program, you are required by law to tell potential investers that returns are not guaranteed, and that past profits are not an indication of future performance.

        2. Exactly. It’s so horrible that this was done in the name of God & of Cxn stewardship.

  8. “I guess that is just the Lord opening the door to prison ministry.”
    The Lord has not only opened that door good and wide but has decided to give the esteemed MOg Mr. Kimmel a good boot right through it, with a bit of help from the FBI, heh-heh-heh
    :mrgreen:

  9. Anytime I hear “Fundy Financial Advice”, I am reminded of a sermon from my first Fundy U.
    I may have even mentioned it here before. If I’ve told this story don’t stop me. I want to hear it again.
    Darrell Dunn was speaking, and he told us that if you owed $1000.00 on your school bill, and only had $100.00, you should give it to God and he would supply the need. Even as a young Kool-Aid drinker, I believed that advice to be a bit suspect.
    I always found the thought amusing that someone might put it into the offering instead of the Business Office, then get the other $900.00 and still be short.

      1. Thanks, but I really should admit that it isn’t original with me. Grouch Marx made the statement first.

    1. you’d think that Fundy U speakers would be claiming that paying off your college debt to Fundy U was tantamount to giving money to God because Fundy U “works” for God…

    1. It’s sad Kimmel, Schaap, and Hyles have defenders over on the Fighting Fundamental Forum. Plus Tom Vineyard (son of Jim Vineyard) has been accused of sexual harassment/misconduct and the elder Vineyard and his sheep are doing nothing about it. Sadly their college may be shutting down. Didn’t Vineyard come from FBC/HAC? What influence Hyles has had on people…..

        1. Sad thing was, his statements were hardly controversial here in Oklahoma, which some people might say should be classified as a hate group itself. *evil*

        2. It’s interesting how Tom Vineyard’s testimony to the City Council was full of statistics that he (or somebody) made up out of thin air.

          Studies show that three out of five statistics cited are fake.

      1. I read that the deacons of Vineyard’s church presented him with evidence of 14 women claiming sexual immorality and asked him to leave. He refused, and since he actually owns the church property himself, the church felt kind of stuck. There was a church split, with the decent half leaving. Now the half that stayed are trying to claim it was only one woman, and he just sent her text messages complimenting her because he was trying to be nice to her and she misunderstood.

      2. Yes, Jim Vineyard was a Hyles disciple. He ran Hyles’ bus “ministry” for a while, and apparently gained a reputation there for being a sadistic bully.

        Later, he made national news for giving out automatic rifles at his youth camps.

        I don’t think Jim Vineyard knows how to deal with any problem that can’t be solved by fists or firearms.

      3. I have seen no proof that Tom Vineyard actually owns the property, and wonder if that is just a scare tactic designed to help him keep his job.

        The Vineyards are known for their love of scare tactics.

  10. Clicked on the link.

    In the “Dear Pastor” section, he writes, “a friend handed me a book. Normally that means he wants to sell me something, or he wants me to sell something for him. To be honest, I was not interested and put the book aside. A few days later, I was scheduled for a semi-annual heart test that would last about two hours; so I decided to take that book with me. Between tests, I started reading. I read non-stop that day and up till about 1:00 a.m. the next morning! I had found the Bible-based plan for which I was looking! I had found the answer to my debt problem! . . . Now, I would like to share that information with you.”

    So, is he plagiarizing?

  11. In the “Pastor’s Letters” section of his website there is a letter from Harvest Baptist Church of the Deaf in Georgia. Nice to know that he was exploiting the deaf also.

    1. BJg,

      Exploitation of At Risk Adults? That’s a felony guaranteed to add more vacation time in the big house.

      B.R.O.

        1. Thought so but I’m much too lazy today to look up the spelling. It was a loooooooooooooooong weekend.

        2. I only knew b/c my last living uncle lives in that hilly little north Georgia town.

  12. Kimmel has traveled for a number of years selling his materials. The amount of people he was swindled is unbelievable. He came to a former church of mine and met with people privately and looked through private financial documents. He was extremely rude to me and my husband, said there was no advice he could give us (????). We did not have savings or anything to invest, were young and had some debt. I would have loved to get advice from someone, but he literally did not have time for anyone that did not have a lot of assets, He kicked us out of the room in front of our pastor, who also did nothing about our mistreatment. My in laws lost A LOT of money (basically all of their retirement) as did one of our deacons and the pastor. The pastor later had to refinance his home and go back to work, the deacon also had to go back to work from retirement and I can’t but assume this was all due to the bad investment with Kimmel. He is a con artist. And churches around the country welcomed him with open arms because he was endorsed by FBC. An easy google search would have showed the first two issues with other states at the time of my former church’s seminar and no one did that before these private meetings, not even me. He was also happy to sell $100 advice sets with books and CDs, which we bought (stupid I know) even though in our private meeting there was supposedly no way he could help us, “we had too much debt and should just file for bankruptcy”. He was so rude, did not make eye contact or even greet us or spend more than two minutes once he could see our accounts and knew we had nothing. All this to say, SHAME on these people for taking advantage of others, PREYING on the simple minded and the eager to please crowd in IFB. SHAME on a system that encourages church members to blindly follow the pastor and FBC endorsed men without asking any questions first. Thank God that we no longer attend there now and were too poor to be swindled several years ago. It is disgusting that this man claims to be a Christian.

    1. This makes my blood boil. I’m thankful he didn’t have time for you (and was very rude). In slightly different circumstances you could have been lured into his Ponzi scheme.

      Evil, evil man. I hope the court has no mercy on him.

      1. Even Bernie Madoff would turn from him in shame. “I was just greedy, but to do it in the Name of God…” :mad: :evil:

  13. From the FFF HAC board yesterday:

    “He was at FBC today. (Kimmel). If I was responsible for people losing their life savings, I don’t think I could show up to fellowship with them. I thought maybe he’d be going forward at the invitation to confess, apologize, ask forgiveness….but that did not happen. Guess he has a clear conscience? ”

    http://www.fundamentalforums.org/…/thom-kimmel-convicted/

    1. What a loser this John Wilkerson (pastor of First Baptist Church Hammond) seems to be…No church discipline…nothing. Just welcoming the wolf back into the hen house? Really?!

    1. Godly men find themselves under attack both by pesky law enforcement and the lame-stream media. Go figure. You can’t even steal from the deaf anymore.

  14. When I was in a class at BJU one day, some professor was yammering on about how the students needed to “step out on faith” and take whatever loans were available to make sure they finished their education. I raised my hand, was called on, and asked him why didn’t BJU “step out on faith” and announce that all student’s tuition was free for that year, and trust God to provide it. I observed that there was a constant drumbeat for the students to go into debt while trusting God to provide down the road. But BJU seemed to have faith that lawyers, collection agencies, and the state lottery would provide for BJU’s needs.

    He didn’t appreciate the question or the observation.

    1. LOLOL! Good for you!

      Yes, I have noticed “Faith promise giving” and other “stepping out in faith” requests are mainly directed only at the peon’s – and not the leaders.

      1. That’s very true! I have sometimes thought about contacting certain evangelists and offering to pray for them if they give me money. Never got round to it though..

    2. It’s a fair point: If mere students are expected to be able to pray riches into existence out of thin air, then how much more should the spiritual masters be able to do it?

    3. That was my whole thought on tithing too. Here in the “church age” we are freed from the laws that included many things but also tithing. According to the bible, we are commanded to give cheerfully. Nothing else. According to what the bible says, we don’t need to give money, just to love people.

      Getting away from just speaking about money, I believe IFB churches do this on a grander scale. They take from the people and give to the “ministry,” whatever that means. The congregants (or at least the seven or so people who actually do things) are run ragged trying to serve, they have no time for themselves or family, and they are not the ones to gain anything from their labor (or if they do it is very little). It’s a pretty good financial/capital scheme that is completely legal.

      1. My way of “giving cheerfully” was to fold my offering into an origami airplane, and fly it into the plate that the usher held. It was entertaining to me, and the usher, and those around us, but I was told by the counting committee to stop, since unfolding it slowed them down. Sigh…

    4. Reminds me of the generous offer (or we will withhold your transcripts and diploma) to finance my BJU school debt at 24% interest. It was actually cheaper to put in a credit card at the time.

  15. “Bro. Kimmel has a heart to see God’s people increase their ability to give to the Lord and His church. The principles he teaches will afford your people that training.”
    Pastor Dave Delaney, Shawnee Baptist Church, Louisville, Kentucky

    My cat could teach those same principles, which are: “Everything here is mine. Give it to me now.” And I can testify that Spot has lived by those principles for his entire life.

    1. My cats made sure I knew that years ago. First thing I have to do every morning is open the little round cans.
      >^. .^<

  16. Most of you people who have not been around this guy really have no idea what he actually taught about tithing. Now you will have to throw away your bible for this but here goes: And I heard this straight from the horses mouth. Or the other end.

    If you were saved at a later date in life and were not tithing all of your life you need to estimate how much back tithe you owe, add 20% (the fifth part therof) and begin to pay that off.

    He also taught the three t’s of tithing. That is you owe 10% of your money, 10% of your time, and 10% of your talent. There are 168 hours in a week and you are required to give God 16.8 hours every week, doing what I don’t know. If you are a carpenter and work 40 hours then you owe God 4 hours of carpentry work every week and so on and so forth. If you get a free haircut you are to figure out the value and tithe on it. If you are standing by the street during a parade and a fireman throws you a piece of candy you are to tithe on that. You get the picture. Not too scriptural but a pastor would love you if he thought you were bringing in the coin!

    1. I don’t have enough math skillz to do all that. If I did I wouldn’t have the patience or the time to calculate. How would I serve gid if I had to spend10 hours a day doing math? How could I possibly be a Proverbs 31 woman?

      1. Lady Semp – According to him you only have to be a Proverbs 3.1 woman. Which means you need to drop the Lady from your name. :-)

        1. Oh, no no no! I’m not going to put up with another round of gender identity confusion.

        2. Lady Semp, you mean you don’t want to wander thru the fun of Cis/Cer and the Hide The Gender game that pervades not a few major websites? :razz:
          Actually think I got myself kicked off one because I kept reverting to the old way.

      1. Interesting comment, especially when you consider that the tithe money would mostly have been used to help support the poor anyway in an ideal world.

    2. Again.

      This is a yoke that our fathers could not bear, yea, and would not bear.

      This is a false “gospel,” which is no gospel at all. These men desire to bring us back under the law which Jesus Christ fulfilled perfectly in His person and work. False teachers demand such.

    3. Wow. Your post is, well, amazing. I thought I’d seen and heard it all in my lifetime. But paying back tithes. Never heard of such crap.

      I have no use for Bob Jones “University”. But I think that BJU’s BS and evil have been surpassed and eclipsed by Jack Hyles, FBC Hammond, HAC, and their clingons.

      God have mercy on us all. rpbork, your comment astounded me. I hope this sh*tbag “Bro Kimmel” has a good, long time in the pen.

    4. Many IFB, unfortunately, teach “back tithing” as well as tithing on gifts. I was told that if someone gave you a candy bar, you should put a dime in the offering plate on Sunday. If you receive wedding gifts, you should research the value and give 10% of the value to the church. There is also teaching on tithing for time, etc. that others give you. If someone helps paint your house, you are required to total up the time and then give 10% of that amount in time to the church. I know it sounds stupid but for awhile I was adding up everything people did for me and trying to do all this! It was so exhausting that I would end up crying…..and telling people no when they offered to help me in whatever way or offered a gift because I knew I did not have the money to give 10% of the value to the church or the time to give 10% to the church. It is ridiculous and soul crushing. I know now that Jesus NEVER required this of us!

      1. Making up your own requirements to add to Christianity is a hallmark of the Hyles brand of Fundamentalism.

      2. That WOULD be soul-crushing. How sad that people teach this in the name of Jesus, whose Gospel is supposed to offer freedom and grace and GOOD news not burdens and guilt.

      3. When giving money to my siblings, my wife and I give them at least $1.11 for every dollar we want them to have because we know my parents will make them tithe on their gift. So, if we want to give a $20 birthday gift, we have to give them at least $22.22. We usually just end up giving them $25. It’s stupid.

        1. Yep, I was in a church that taught this; that if you purchased something “on-sale” you should tithe on the amount you saved, as well as on every gift you received.

        2. Your comment, DS, makes me wonder about something. What if you gave a donation to a charity in their name as a gift? What would people who tithe on gifts do with that?

        3. GR, that’s just total crazy. I mean, if you got the money you already tithed on it, right?

          I heard Jorgensen talk about tithing if someone gave you a non-monetary gift. The insanity these guys preach and teach makes me want to drink another margarita.

        4. Shannon H., they don’t believe there is such a thing as charitable giving. Only giving to their church counts. Also they don’t believe that there is such a thing as giving on someone else’s behalf. All moneys given by Person A to Local IFB Church are credited to Person A’s account in heaven and no one else’s!!! (Except, the MOG gets some of the credit too of course.)

        5. I should also add that one of my sisters decided that submitting to my father mean that she was required to have her paychecks direct deposited into my father’s checking account. Then, he would add to his tithe check 10% of all her earnings. At some point, I recall much handwringing by her over whether this “counted” or whether she needed to ask him for 10% and put it in the plate herself. After all, if it’s comfortable and convenient, it ain’t Christian!!!!

          It was also most amusing when my next sister followed in Sister 1’s footsteps and trotted off obediently to WCBC where she promptly opened (on my advice) her own checking account. My parents expressed much feigned bafflement as to how she was supporting herself with no money since she wasn’t putting any money into my dad’s account.

      4. Matthew 23:4 (AV)
        For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

  17. Ahhhh yes! The financial advice — particularly, “TITHE! TITHE! Not 10%, but actually 20%! Then there are the offerings! Another 10%! Then blah, blah, blah, ack! phooey!”

    They tell you how great it was that the Israelites gave so generously to build the Tabernacle, even to the men breaking off their earrings to give to the work! Of course, nothing was said about the wealth being extorted from the Egyptians right before leaving! Tithes of taken moneys. Hmmm.

    Funny that the tithe is the ONLY financial regulation fundies hold on to. Do fundy farmers reap the edges of their fields? You betcha! Do fundy businessmen bait and switch (a violation of the just weights and measures commands). Yup. Lots do. Go to a fundy college and you will see some of the financial shenanigans they are up to.

    And of course, the promises. You tithe and the Lord will meet all your needs. Except when He doesn’t. You mean you tithed and didn’t have the money to pay this bill? Of course you did. You squandered it on food and medicine! Now if you gave even more to “the Lord” you would have reaped abundantly of God’s blessings! You have to pay to play!

    1. This is such a heavy load to put on people’s backs; and as usual, Fundies will not lift a finger to alleviate the burden.

      The pastors who recommended Kimmel to the people of their churches (hoping he will get them in a position to give more, more, MORE) should be called on the carpet for their lack of discernment and greed.

      How will these pastors restore the people they served up for abuse?

    2. oh yes, tithe is just the beginning. “That is what you owe God. You then give offerings to show how much you love God”. Very common teaching in IFB. It is never just 10% tithe.

  18. Wow, you would think someone who was qualified to teach Personal Finance at HAC -someone who was trusted to teach every single freshman – would know what he was doing with money and be an honest person! s/

  19. I’m fed up with the anti-debt impulse that permeates conservative Christianity (unless, of course, it’s the pastor’s mortgage on his mcmansion that he bought to be a “good testimony to unbelievers”). Evangelicals are just as bad with their moron Dave Ramsey.

    There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with debt. Sure, sometimes debt sucks. That’s probably why the Bible points out that the “borrower is servant to the lender,” which seems to me simply to mean that the borrower must work to pay off his debt. (And yes, I understand that debtors who could not pay up were treated very differently in a pre-bankruptcy universe.)

    But debt itself is simply the time value of money. Sure, I’d love to pay $90,000 for my home today and not have a mortgage payment. But rather than waiting the approximately 15 years it would likely take me to save $90,000, I am THRILLED to pay $130,000 over the next ten years to have my home NOW. That’s all debt is: the premium you pay to have something now rather than later. And while I think we can all agree that there are things that you don’t “need” to pay extra in order to have them now rather than later, there are many other things that seem eminently worth it to me to have now.

    /Rant

    1. I find the “debt hawks” particularly annoying when it comes to US gov’t debt that we pay somewhere around 0.01% interest on, and essentially is FREE income advances for reliably paying the t-bills off when they are do and not doing any gimmickery on our debts.

      Managed debt is actually financial leverage. Out of control debt is a problem, and most people seem to refuse to understand the difference.

      1. The deficit has gone down every year Obama has been in office, despite what the Repubs and Tea Partiers say. But that’s a mistake the government is making.

        The government should actually be borrowing much more money now. It is beyond free to for the government to borrow money now, by which I mean the government can borrow at interest rates much lower than the inflation rate. More investment in things like rebuilding the infrastructure and education would stimulate the economy at a time when we very much need it.

  20. Another financial fraudster (BJU grad ’87) is convicted felon Jonathan Davey, now awaiting sentencing. Google “jonathan davey ponzi”. He lied and stole millions from mostly elderly church members to build a personal mansion (Google “459 Orchard Drive Granville OH” to see some pictures of it).

    1. Apparently he was building that lavish house with a 9 car garage on 47 acres. The real estate ad said that the buyer can pick the finishes. No kidding. The thief was caught before he could pick out his hardwood floors.

  21. This whole notion of tithing is a freak show of dictatorial “pastors” who lord it over the people they’ve swindled.

    These men really believe that preaching on the tithe will pad their bank accounts and retirement accounts so they will not have to work an honest day in their miserable lives. The burden they place on the backs of sincere people keep them in control of the positions of power they desire for themselves and their college buddies.

    The yoke that these deceived “shepherds” place on God’s people is disgusting. They will give an account: if not before the authorities on this earth, then before the throne of our creator in that great and terrible day.

    Authority corrupts, and absolute authority corrupts absolutely.

  22. There is some guy out of Indiana who does something similar. I don’t recall his name, but he goes from church to church and gives “free” estate planning seminars in which he pressures elderly people to leave their wealth to the church. (One can only assume he gets some sort of kick-back too.) I reported him to my state bar association for practicing law without a license because he prepares wills and trusts and things without being an attorney. They did nothing. No surprise in Oklahoma, the Christian Afghanistan.

    1. David Gibbs, Jr.’s CLA were out at Lancaster Baptist several years ago doing wills as a fundraiser for the college. Their fee, of course, went to the school; but I am sure the big money came from people who were pushed into “remembering the church” in their estate.

      vultures.

  23. There are many ways to cheat people out of their well-earned money. But using the church as a cover is truly fulfilling the “wolves in sheep’s clothing” method.

  24. Wow, just realized one of the pastors commenting in favor of this “financial guru” was one of my high school teachers. Shakes head in disbelief…..

    1. I wonder if the endorsers (the ones not yet behind bars) realize exactly how that makes them look. Either they were in league with the Flim-Flam Man, or they were too foolish to see that he was running a Ponzi con.

  25. “Due to the people’s extra giving…”

    Yeah, I looked back at how much extra I gave through the Sunday morning guilt trip sessions “brother Right With MoG gave $1000, who will give $2000″. It just sickens me. The MoG had a very nice parsonage, nice pay, nice church vehicles (gas included). When he needed work around the parsonage done then men of the church were expected to show up and do it.

    Meanwhile my house was falling apart, I drove old cars, was going deeper and deeper into debt. Its spiritual abuse, and man I’m glad I’m out of that mess.

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