252 thoughts on “Not Changing at All”

  1. He’s making an appeal to other ministries to help pay for these monitors?

    Or is this from their website, and therefore an appeal to those who use it and may want to give?

    1. From the NVBC website:

      “In these last 35 years, God has enabled the church to experience numerous building projects and expand its facilities to include a 65,000-square-foot building at Clyde Avenue, as well as a six-acre college and church campus at De La Cruz Boulevard.”

      Why is it the God is blamed for the unscriptural building projects and their apparent success?

      So, If I own a successful liquor store(s) I can give God credit for my prosperity? So, my super 65,000 square foot liquor-porn shop is from God because I was able to do it?

      Greatness in square feet doesn’t mean God is in it.

      B.R.O.

  2. You people just apparently do not understand the fundamentalist mindset. If you preach against something long enough it becomes ‘old-fashioned’. After that it is all right. πŸ˜€

    1. I’m not Mike Z, however, the answer is “YES.”
      He spoke at FBC in Aug. 2012, after the other Jack was banished/exiled/fired/dismissed or whatever. The speech is on YouTube and he refers to the “church” as the “Great FBC of Hammond.” Nauseating. I think he attended HAC.

      1. “… after the other Jack was banished/exiled/fired/dismissed or whatever.”

        I think “imprisoned for sexual indecency with a minor” is the phrase you’re looking for.

        1. Before the other Jack was imprisoned, he was taking time off for health reasons. Not that FBCH tried to cover anything up or anything πŸ™„

        2. Speaking of Jack–S’s health, you remind me that his defense team said in its sentencing brief that his judgment was impaired (or something) because Jack–S (pronounced with the accent on the first syllable) had high blood pressure and prostatitis. Anyone who’s curious can look up the symptoms of prostatitis, but I guarantee that you will not find “trying to do the wicky-wacky with 16-year-old girls” on the list.

    1. So… How many lackeys can you fit in there Colon?
      Does the sphincter have to use Blistex-Preparation KYH in order to keep from getting chapped from all the smooching and insertions that go on? 😯 😈

      1. Rule of thumb:

        Whenever anyone says something smart or clever on this site, it’s intentional.

        Whenever anyone says something dumb on this site, it’s accidental.

        The rule is reversed for trolls.

        1. True.
          Also:
          Most of the funniest jokes on this site are the ones only implied, rather than said explicitly.

  3. I used to have a small pamphlet — sort of a multipage tract — printed in the first part of the 20th century.

    It was preaching against the sin of reading paperback books.

    Honest! If I could find it again, I’d post pictures. I think my wife culled it, thinking it was trash.

    The irony was really thick with this one. A “paperback book” on the evils of paperback books. The focus was on the dime novels — the cowboys v. Indians stories, the “true crime” novels that had scantily clad ladies on the cover that were still much better clothed than most women walking in Walmart today.

    A few short years later, full-size paperback books were characteristic of the ministry. They realized most people couldn’t afford the hardbound books. So lower royalties were better than no royalties! And where the ministers actually gave away the books at cost or for free, the lower cost guaranteed readership.

    A great deal of fundamentalist doctrine was promulgated that way. Dispensationalism influenced Baptist churches. It was spread largely by paperback books.

    How easily what is marked as “sin” becomes sanctified!

    1. That’s what happens when you arbitrarily choose what is sin. If it becomes inconvenient to be a sin, and the Bible doesn’t say it’s a sin, you can arbitrarily drop it from being a sin and still not be going against the Bible.

  4. An interesting excerpt from the NVBC staff handbook:

    “Plan +Performance = Achievement

    Plan

    If you are going to build a house, you must first plan. An architect will spend hours with the client planning just what is going to happen.

    [blahblahblah guilt inducing drivel….]

    Performance

    Performance comes when the contractor takes over and actually works the plan laid out by the client and contractor.

    Any ministry can rightfully ask of its employees loyalty and faithfulness, but the bottom line is performance.

    No excuses — Just results!”

    So how about those results with this glorious new auditorium “Dr” Trieber?

    Well the architect died
    “No excuses — Just results!”

    And the land’s so expensive
    “No excuses — Just results!”

    And we didn’t know the plans had been modified
    “No excuses — Just results!”

    And we set unrealistic deadlines for building completion
    “No excuses — Just results!”

    So we pushed through without diligent planning
    “No excuses — Just results!”

    So send us more money to fix what we messed up.
    “No excuses — Just results!”

    If it’s good enough for the staff, is it good enough for the mog?

  5. Ben,

    Clearly you missed the sheer sarcasm and irony of my post. I was actually trying to point out the idiocy of his assurances that the screens would not be used for the preaching or to display Bible verses.
    I don’t know what your questions had to do with my post, but I can say that it seems in the early church days, the elders actually made decisions about spiritual and financial matters. Of course, financial masters were much simpler then. The churches met in homes or public places and owned no buildings. The congregation handled the discipline of its members (sometimes under the direction of its leadership, but apparently only when the church didn’t do its job (as discussed by Paul in I Corinthians)).
    I have always believed that pastors shouldn’t be dictators. I also believe that congregations shouldn’t be either. A church is supposed to be simply an organized group of Christ-followers. A bishop/Pastor/elder/minister should “take the oversight” of the church, but as more of a superintendent than a king. He is not to be lord over the sheep. The church is likened to a flock, a family, a fellowship (sort of like “the fellowship of the rooms”), an army, etc… In all these scenarios there is a give and take between the leadership and the congregation. I do not technically see the church function as a pure democracy at all.
    These are opinions of mine, by the way. Each church described in the new testament was unique, even in its polity. As I am responding to this post while seated on my throne (read commode), I don’t have any books about church polity handy and cannot think of any off the top of my head that I could recommend. Books are great (I’ve red hundreds of them), but are barred on opinion as much as my theory of church polity.
    I do believe that the supremacy of the Pastor type of church fosters much of the spiritual, emotional, mental, and even physical abuse that has come to light in ifb churches. I also know that pure democracy can also lead to much harm, if the members who are allowed to vote are not spiritual and diligent thinkers.
    well, of course, this truly has nothing to do with the original post, but, you asked.
    I have pastored and been a member in many different flavors of Baptist churches in my 39 years. I haven’t found a perfect model yet, and suspect I never will this side of heaven!

    1. The New Testament is sketchy, at best, about the nature of church governance in the first century of Christianity, but it looks to me like it was more or less a direct democracy. The members seem to have chosen their own leaders, who did not necessarily hold those positions permanently, and the powers of the leaders were decidedly limited and depended on constant consultation with the membership. This is, of course, easier to do in a small group than in a megachurch or a worldwide denomination. But some modern churches, such as the Friends (Quakers), still operate on a similar model.

      Some of the leaders were definitely women, which should give Fundamentalist Baptists pause.

    2. Just Baptist,

      Actually your humor was not unappreciated, and the question was unrelated to your post.

      Maybe I was acting like the nut who sits down next to a stranger on the bus and just starts talking. Anyway, the reason I bothered you is, despite your relative youth πŸ˜‰ , your education and experience made you seem like someone who would be able to give a particularly well informed answer to the question.

      The reason for the question in the first place is that modern fundamentalism appears to have doctrinal and theological problems that will inevitably lead to abuse. In addition to “The man of God fetish,” the extreme fundamentalist model of church “polity” also seems to be one of the errors that lead to serious trouble. Thank you for your comments about pastoral supremecy, by the way– without a doubt a lot of us feel the same as you do on this issue. To summarize your understanding though, it seems as though the bible and history don’t give us any more of a clear cut model for church government than they give us for secular government. Maybe that’s where experience and God-given reason come into play.

      Thanks again for taking the time to respond. By the way, although I’m a newcomer here, it’s already clear that if it isn’t immediately obvious whether or not you’re serious, the best default option is a presumption of the use of satire and irony.

      All the best,

  6. I’m trying to imagine that huge sanctuary with 9 large screens,and I think the building will take on more of a stadium feel.

    Kiss your beau and show up on our screen! (Oops, not allowed…).

    1. I fun little tale:

      I took the family to a Phillies game a few years ago. Late in the game, they have the “Kiss Cam” that they use to find couples and put them on the big screen. After five or six couples were featured, they found a guy sitting completely by himself…nobody else visible in the picture (very hard to do at that ballpark, which is always sold out). And they played “All by myself…don’t wanna be…”

      He got the biggest cheer of the night.

        1. Jack Schaap: “You’re Sixteen” (Ringo’s version)
          Jack Trieber: “You Never Give Me Your Money” (Beatles)
          Bus Captain: “The Candyman” (Sammy Davis, Jr.)
          Jack Hyles: “I’m the Greatest” (Ringo Starr)
          Larry Smith: “Darth Vader’s Theme” (the Imperial March)
          Tony Hudson: “(don’t want to be a) Fatman” (Jethro Tull)

    2. Another fun little tale:

      My ex-wife,
      who was raised in a strict Baptist church where the youth pastor (son of mog) had multiple affairs but daddy wouldn’t believe and/or discipline,
      who threw a public fit when I nearly had a glass of champagne at a friend’s wedding,
      who would scream, stomp around the house, get out her suitcase, and threaten to leave me (BTW, I’m a minister – and, apparently now a “liberal” :mrgreen: ) because “no one in our church was saved!!!”,
      I could go on and on…

      was caught by members of my congregation having an affair because she and a friend were on the kiss-cam in our city’s MLB stadium.

      Trust me… God can use screens. πŸ˜†

        1. Thanks, MSK. I appreciate your kindness, and it is truly OK. Friends, genuine Christians, the real Jesus Christ… (OK, and a little more champagne…) got me through and brought me to a much better place than I’d ever been.

      1. C. Guy, your story is heart-wrenching, but it does remind me of that old schoolyard jump-rope rhyme:

        Two, four, six, eight,
        Dont’ make love at the garden gate.
        For love may be blind, but the neighbors ain’t.

  7. I don’t know why, but I’m still amazed by some people’s ability to focus on the unimportant, major on the minors, and tithe their “mint, rue, and every herb.”

    When is enough enough? What about the people living within a mile or two of that monstrosity who are hungry, homeless, or have never heard the gospel?

    No, he must build (actually, decorate) a bigger “barn.” May God have mercy – his soul will one day be required of him.

  8. Jacky Boy Trieber needs to practice more at reading from a teleprompter. He did a horrible job. He kept looking to the side. Asshats. Try putting it in front of him if he has that much of an issue with it.

    BTW…did he really write that book? I remember feeling like a heathen the first time I went into a non-IFB church and they had the big screens and *gasp* a band. I felt like God was going to kill me for walking through the doors. 😯

    1. The rest of the story, indeed!
      Jack publishes book about not using screens. Then he sees his lovely fact on FBC Hammond’s large screens. Now Jack has to have large screens of his own.

  9. Ben. Thanks.

    In some churches, the Pastor is a benevolent dictatorship, but as the old saying goes, more often than not, “Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
    I have pastored 5 churches. The first told me they were “Pastor-led,” then voted me out when I tried to hold real elections for the treasurer.
    I started the second one, and the folks we reached insisted that I make all the decisions… I tried to get them more involved in the decision making process, but they never came along. I also had little help in outreach, etc… They not only wanted me to make all decisions; they also wanted me to do all the work.
    I pastored a church that had Ben souther Baptist up until I had a heart attack and had to take a fewyears off for recovery. They were the most gracious church folks I have ever pastored. We “voted,” but they trusted me so much, they voted affirmative for everything I suggested.
    After recovering somewhat, I pastored a Missionary Baptist church that was hyper calvinist (though they denied it). They never affirmed anything I asked, even when a new convert asked to be baptized (she had too much “baggage,” and they didn’t feel she had proved she was elect). I resigned adherer one year.
    I must recently pastored a wonderful group in Florida, who were eager for outreach and wanted to be “Pastor-led.” I avoided being a dictator by asking ever member privately what they thought about business decisions, etc…. The previous Pastor had taken advantage of their willingness to be led and left them broke. They gave him practically everything that wasn’t nailed down when he resigned, so I tried hard not to be like that. I had to resign because of a heart-breaking family incident. Thankfully, my family has survived intact, and I am involved in ministry in a different capacity for the time being. I have no idea what the future holds, but I read this site and the comments daily to remind myself of the hypocrisy of extreme “christianity” of every stripe. Before I pastored, I worked under some extreme ifb, repeat-after-me ministries and hated it. I am respected by many of that sort, though I am known somewhat as a dissenter.
    After reading comments on this site, I would genuinely love to hear some of the preacher/teachers here “do their thing!” Seriously…no sarcasm at all!
    I get so frustrated at times with the independent Baptist way, because so many preachers I have met over the years are truly “wolves in where’s clothing,” and there is little that the average church member can do when they have one foisted on them. On the other hand, hierarchical denominations don’t usually fare much better, so, as you say, there is no clear-cut way to get rid of all corruption in any church.
    As long as churches are made up of people, positions of authority will attract vain men and women, children’s ministries will attract pedophiles, etc….
    After coming to know some dear people who are former mennonites, I began to realize that often, the more legalistic the group, the higher the probability that horrendous acts of perversion are being perpetrated on the innocent and naive, all while maintaining a facade of extreme outward holiness!
    Nuff said.

  10. From the NVBC website:

    “In 1976, Dr. Jack Trieber was called to pastor this infant work. God has greatly blessed the ministry of our pastor. From 1975 to present, more than 2.9 million people have come to hear the preaching of God’s Word, with over 62,000 making a profession of faith in Christ for salvation in one of our services, and over 15,000 following the Lord in believer’s baptism.”

    Question: What happened to those 47,000 saved souls that were not baptized? What would the apostle Paul say in this regard? Where in scripture to we find that only 24% of new converts are baptized? And we continue on in blind arrogance with out established traditions, fancy sacred buildings, and lofty moG’s.

    B.R.O.

      1. And if I show up for every service for a year, he counts me as 156 people, too.

        So, to get a more accurate picture, we should take 2.9 million people, divide it by 38 years to arrive at 76,315 people per year. Divide it by 156 church services (assuming “Three to Thrive”), and we have 489 individuals per service, on average, for the years of his pastorate.

        Nothing at which to sneeze, but more realistic than 2.9 million.

        Kinda cheesy, the way these Indy Fundies count things. They try to say how wonderful they are by putting up numbers in the manner of McDonalds, but without the understanding that McDonalds is reporting discrete burgers sold. No fair counting one person over and over again.

        1. You’re correct, the college and bus kids make up a large part of their attendance count. However, they also have a good size “Spanish church” on the premises that are counted members/attenders, as well as, a huge Philippine church that gives the most financial support. If that Philippine church ever decides to split and be independent, NVBC would be in dire straights. These “churches” have their own preacher, but are subject to Trieber’s authority. He is their #1 pastor.

  11. …Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. For there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; neither hid, that shall not be known. Luke 12:1-2

    Especially, if they write books about it!

  12. Darrell….Just wondering if you’d consider adding Jack Trieber to the list of Tags? Posts about him and NVBC generate large number of comments. His mentor was the late Jack Hyles, and in many ways, NVBC is a West Coast FBCH. Thx

    1. Under normal circumstances, SURE!

      These aren’t normal circumstances. These men insist that THEIR way is the only true and right way. They consign everyone to Hell for doing things any other way. They do this for years/decades. Then, suddenly, they reverse themselves without explanation, and without apologizing to all the people they maligned for all those years.

      This is not okay.

      They deserve to be criticized as false teachers; as wolves who tear into the flock.

      If you think that verbal criticism on a website equates to a “crucifixion,” then I strongly suggest that you do a little research into the mechanics, psychology, and physical effects of an actual crucifixion. Because you are cheapening it, which makes me wonder if you understand what Christ actually suffered for us.

    2. Nobody just ‘changed their mind’. He made money selling a book with false teachings, and then changed his mind (without repenting of the false teaching) and tried to manipulate the sheeple into funding his petty desires.

    3. Maybe they shouldn’t make such a grand stand on how “EVIL” something is until they actually do research. There is a LOT of good things to be said about visual learning, but once again — just because something is different, the IFB has to crucify it!

    4. Think about what an actual change of mind would require, in his case.

      He *had*

      — published a book on the dangers of screens in Church
      — made money off the book

      To actually “change his mind” without being hypocritical he would have to

      — publish his change of mind and heart
      — offer a refund for the product
      — withdraw his book from the marketplace
      — take the profit from the book and give it to some other ministry, not his own.

      Because now that he approves of preaching with screens, the money he made off the book is essentially the result of false advertising. If he doesn’t believe it any more, then why continue to sell the book.

      One cannot actually change one’s mind without changing direction. Attempting to do so makes one equivalent to a politician.

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