188 thoughts on “Missions to…Rural Maine?”

  1. Guh! That brought back bad memories of…. horribly produced missionary videos.

    $150/week to keep vans running? Most people in rural areas usually have their own cars. Living frugal? Wasting money with fundie logic, priceless.

    Ok, the static pictures in front of the moving bouncing background video is making me sick. 😯

    1. The big question is… why can’t he just get a job? I know of several pastors who had to work a regular job while trying to grow the church to a level where it could support itself AND a pastor.

    2. With the price of gas now, $150 a week for vans is not expensive.
      Whether or not the mission needs the vans is something I don’t have enough information to opine on.

      1. The video quality was crap. I agree with the motion sickness, they were driving to fast. And for crying out loud – wash the freaking windshield.

    3. 1. I wish he would have cleaned his windshield first.
      2. The “liberal mainline denominations” are not the only institutional churches dying; Fundamentalism as a movement is well on its way.
      3. His theology is off on a point or two.
      4. Where is the Bible, even the KJV, is it taught that God’s people have to root and beg for financial support?
      That is all.

    1. This town desperately needs an IFB mission, because there are only 99 Baptist Churches nearby (according to Google). That’s not counting all the other churches, because … we never do!

      1. Bangor Baptist, under its original leadership, did a lot of sheep-stealing and prided itself on being the only Gospel-preaching church within a 50-mile radius of Bangor. A lot has happened since, and the church has mellowed a great deal. It’s still independent, but pretty mainstream evangelical and very friendly with other area churches of all denominations.

        1. Bangor Baptist is NOTHING like it was in the 70’s and is actually a very mainstream evangelical church. The pastor, Jerry Mick, is an acquaintance of mine and there is nothing IFB or legalistic about him. They have a contemporary Christian radio station. We need to be careful that we let people who break away from the IFB and IFBX indeed break away and not haunt them with the stigma of that which they’ve rejected. Who among us wants to be judged by the stupid decisions we made 20-30 years ago? That said, I agree with those who said — a) church planters and pastors all over the country have to be bi-vocational all the time, why should these people be exceptions and b) there are a ton of places one can hear the gospel — even in the rural areas of Maine. This is not really “missions”…it’s “send me your money so I don’t have to work too hard or sacrifice”. As long as there are national pastors who can live for a month on what we give American missionaries per day, I’m sticking with supporting nationals.

        2. LEON: Well said on all points…I believe that you are one of the few voices of reason, at least in this post!

  2. Now you know that even though there all all those “Baptist” churches in the area there is still not a “Independent, Fundamental, 1611 KJV Only Bible Preaching, Sinner Loving, Sin Hating, Saint Exhorting, Sold Out, Separated, Pre-melinial/Pre-trib, In Love With Jesus Missionary Evangelist Church in there.

    1. “1611 KJV Only Bible Preaching”

      Where are your commas, you stinking liberal? It totally changes the meaning when you dont place a comma between every word. πŸ˜€

      1. Sorry about that, I copied and pasted from a Church web site in order to get all those goodies in there.

        I should have done a (sic) for what I copied and pasted. I’ll take credit for the double “all” but the rest is pure fundie goodness. πŸ˜‰

        1. Sorry Don, that was addressed to the quoted author, who is apparently a stinking liberal missionary in IFB disguise.

    1. Yeah, pass me one, too.

      I’m pretty carsick after eight minutes on that bumpy road.

      Most missions appeal movies I’ve seen talk some about how hard the local people have it, but this may be the only one I’ve seen where there is more about the missionaries’ hardships than about conditions for the natives.
      It’s the IFB Self-Pity Mission.

      1. They didn’t appear to be lacking for food. Maybe the man should walk to get people, might lose some weight and save on health expenses later.

        1. Weight is a terrible gauge of wealth, especially in America, if not indicative of poverty. Also borderline cheap shot.

        2. He talks about being frugal. Didn’t say anything about poverty and weight. Just saying they appear to have more then enough to eat. Noticed he mentioned alcohol consumption as an evil – but in true fundyness – no problem with destroying the temple with over consumption of food.

        3. In this country, there seems to be an inverse relationship between weight and wealth. The poorer people are, short of total destitution, the more likely they are to be obese.

          That’s true for demographic slices of the population– it doesn’t hold true for individuals. There are many fat rich people and many thin poor people.

        4. I don’t think you can use weight to measure frugality either. Depending on how you define frugality when it comes to food, buying cheap can equate directly to excessive weight.

        5. “[B]uying cheap can equate directly to excessive weight.”

          Yep.
          I’m living proof of that.

  3. “Missions” like this have always caused me to ask several questions…

    One being – as a former bi-vocational pastor in a small, but growing church, would I have been smarter to get the congregation together and vote to formally close the church, and then reopen as a “mission” to our city, thus entitling me to raise support from other churches and allowing me to quit my other job?

    Where are the lines drawn between church-planter, missionary, and pastor of a small and struggling church?

    1. Really, not much of a difference; we support many church plants, and the pastor of the churches works for a paycheck until the church is established and can support a pastor.

      I guess the “real” difference is direction; when it is a new church plant, the theory is that the church is growing and increasing to the point where it can be self-sustaining. However, an existing church that is struggling, and has to go back on financial assistance is perceived to be going backwards and shrinking, not growing.

  4. So I had to giggle at the mention of “fleshie” culture (6:24). Apparently, I have watched to much Casper’s Scare School with my kids. Of course we will have a “fleshie” culture the alternative is a culture with werwolves, ghosts, dragons, vampires and various other creatures. πŸ˜†

  5. “Although socially conservative, it is religiously fractured.” Besides being a horrible comparison, this is a display of their Jesus is a republican theology. I think someone needs to share a holistic gospel with this guy.

    1. Jesus would have no political party affiliation. I’m reminded of what He told Joshua. Paraphrase of course, “I didn’t come to take sides, I came to take over,”

    2. What, Christianity, Christianity, Christianity, and . . . Christianity?

      My impression of rural Maine is that pretty much everybody there has a baptismal certificate from someplace.

  6. #1. The video driving down the road is in Embden and New Portland, Maine, which is in Somerset county (seriously, they drove by my parents’ house!), not Franklin County.
    #2. There is a fundamentalist church in Skowhegan, about 25 minutes away and another in Farmington about 30 minutes away. There are also several Baptist churches that are almost fundy within a 30-minute drive.

    1. I know this area very well; I lived in Somerset County, Maine, for over 30 years and I know the roads where the video was made. Consider: Farmington has an evangelical ABC church, a Southern Baptist church, and an independent Baptist church. New Vineyard itself has this church plus a former Congregational church that years ago became independent fundy. Nearby Kingfield has an independent Baptist church. So has Phillips. Madison has TWO independent Baptist churches (one of them formerly ABC), plus a sizeable independent fundamental church that is Baptist except in name. Temple has one. Jay has two. Skowhegan has an independent Baptist church and an Evangelical Free church. Norridgewock has an evangelical ABC church. The list goes on and on, plus there are all those “liberal, dying churches associated with denominations” — many of which are neither “liberal” nor dying.

      But of course, few, if any, of these other churches preach the REAL gospel. :mrgreen:

      1. I get the feeling we must know each other. The fundy community in that area is too small, especially if you know those roads in the grand metropolis of New Portland . . .

  7. Apparently, he has supported himself for many years as a web developer, and is now looking for support.

    I find it interesting that he talks about Franklin, Maine, but he pastors over 120 miles away; listening to the video, I had the impression he’d been working in Franklin for 12 years.

    In addition to the above, his web site talks a lot about being fundamental Baptist, but the church he has been pastor of for >10 years is called “King’s Valley Chapel” – no hint of Baptist in that title; could be an non-denominational church (of the sort he probably preaches against).

  8. I am glad that there was a Bible-believing, gospel-preaching church in the tiny rural area in which I grew up. They had never heard of any big names and weren’t trying to be somebody; they were content to teach people what Jesus Christ said, and they loved one another. It was a good church in which to begin my growth in Christ.

    They were the only church in that town; there was a mainline denominational church about three miles away, and then, as far as I knew, there were no other churches within 10 miles.

    1. What the heck is a Bible believing church? I think they mean believes and interprets the Bible the way I do. Regarding the gospel – Which means “good news” – Jesus talked about the good news, when he said “”The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,” this is the gospel, not repeating some cookie cutter prayer to receive your “get out of hell” card.

      1. I’ve been to a ton of different churches in my lifetime (don’t get me started!), and I’ve never encountered one that doesn’t believe in the Bible and preach the Gospel.

        Now, what they believe the Bible means and how they live out the Gospel vary a great deal. But it sheds no light to characterize only my church, or only churches like mine, are Bible-believing and Gospel-preaching. That’s a value judgment without a meaningful distinction behind it.

      2. “Bible-believing” means that they believe what the Bible says; granted that some interpretations differ. However, there are certainly many “churches” that don’t believe (for example), that the children of Israel walked across the Red Sea on dry ground like the Bible says. Some churches (or at least leaders) have stated that the stories of the Bible are just tales and are not to be taken as fact; I don’t consider such churches to be Bible-believing.

        In the same vein, “gospel-preaching” means preaching the gospel, which is defined as Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, was buried, and rose again the third day. (I didn’t look this up, and may not have it exact). Again, some churches preach about being successful, or coping with various troubles, or having a positive outlook. These may or may not be good subjects to preach, but they are not the gospel.

        If you’ll note, I’m not naming denominations here. Having mostly attended Baptist churches, I am most familiar with them, and there are Baptist churches that are far more “how to be a success” and “positive mental attitude”-oriented that gospel oriented.

      3. I am very aware of the danger of preaching a “say this prayer and you’re magically saved” teaching. The church I was referencing didn’t even have (gasp!) a soul-winning program. But they taught the about the necessity of being born again.

        I’m very grateful to them for the grounding I received from them.

  9. This guy says something on this page: http://rcpne.fundamental.org/?page_id=35

    “If you don’t feel that you’re being attacked by the enemy, you might want to open your Bible and find out how to be saved.” ~ 16:38

    Think about this concept for a moment. As you go through life, or let’s say as you go through just a day, you examine your faith each hour when an alarm goes off. You discover in the third hour that (gulp) you’re filled with joy that is inexpressible. Repent. Because according to this sick theology, you must feel beaten in order to confirm your salvation.

    1. That only applies to MoG, or other MoG staff that are called out according to his purpose.

      For anyone else, if trouble, or as they like to call it persecution comes, you are examined as to what you did wrong to deserve the chastising hand of God.

  10. The mission agency website is definitely IFB.

    KJV–YES
    Multiple family members on payroll–YES
    Run by local IFB church-YES (can’t be para-church and be biblical, HAY-MAN]

    I also wonder why if the guy in Maine is so proud of being an Independent Baptist why the church has a non-denominational name.

  11. These clowns are all over Alaska! They claim to be missionaries so they go down south and get support so they can live the good life hunting, fishing in Alaska. I know 2 separate families who have gotten nice boats & snow mobiles payed for by folks they have duped in the lower 48! πŸ‘Ώ
    They condemn all the compromisers around them & they are doing nothing to spread the gospel. The villages in AK are as dark spiritually as any mission field you can image yet these worthless men who call themselves missionaries won’t leave the “road” system to reach people because it is too hard! God will not be mocked! They will reap what they sow. ..

    1. There has been a IFB mission work up in Uranium City, Saskatchewan (no roads except in the winter) who fly to places like Yellow Knife up in the NW Territories to minister and share the gospel with the nationals. Tough work, and I’ve never heard any complaints. When you’re there it doesn’t seem at all “mainline” Fundamentalist.

      1. And you won’t hear any “poor mouth”ing from that Wisconsin far-raised pilot. He left a secure airline job to go train aspiring missionary pilots. Then he left that secure job for the rigors of missionary life with northern Saskatchewan tribes. They knew it would be tough going in–way more remote than western Maine. I have the utmost respect for him and his wonderful family, and he’s a considerable contributing to us using aviation in the Amazon.

        1. Make that farm-raised (as in responsible, sensible, strong work ethic), and contributing *factor*. It wasn’t George, it was my phone.

    2. The ones who are still jumping up and down hollering about Satanic totem poles and button blankets even though nobody except them, including the people who made the things in the first place, regards them as anything but heraldic and traditional?

      “I’m Mighty Whitey with the White Leather Bible. I know your thoughts better than you do! Burn everything precious to you or burn in Hell!”

      πŸ‘Ώ

    1. Especially if you buy this video’s claims that Jehovah’s Witnesses, Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists, (and presumably Catholics) are also lost.

      1. I’m just one opinion, but I would count Jehovah’s Witnesses as “lost” simply because they fall out of the realm of theological orthodoxy. Of course an unbeliever or a universalist would disagree with me, but that’s just my take.

        1. IFBs are also outside of theological orthodoxy.
          If you want to know all the ways in which they are, uh … keep reading this blog.

        2. At least IFB believe in the 5 fundamentals. The JW’s don’t ascribe to the deity of Christ. The IFB believes in the fundamentals plus about a million more rules they have made up as tests of fellowship.

        3. The “Five Fundamentals” as a test of orthodoxy only arose in the late 19th century (roughly the 1890s) and wasn’t popularized until the 1910s and after.

          Fundametalism, as defined by the Five Fundamentals, is at odds in a number of respects with traditional Christian orthodoxy as it was known druing the previous 19 centuries.

        4. I still don’t think it conflicts with Christian doctrine the way that JW doctrine does though. Acknowledging the divinity of Christ is one of the true fundamentals to me.

  12. This is why I love the SBC. No deputation. No going around begging for money. You have a salary the day namb approves. You get it until the church can afford your salary.

    1. That is how the United Methodist Church missionaries work. I had Fundy missionary aunt and uncle. Took the. 3 years to leave, while to expected all of the family to support them. My dad wasn’t working and used our money to build their crates and drove Ina freaking blizzard to get their crap to Chicago. Then my aunt had the nerve to bitch about how much it cost to get their stuff.

  13. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=baptist+church+franklin+county,+maine&ll=44.750634,-69.958191&spn=1.033797,2.469177&fb=1&gl=us&hq=baptist+church&hnear=Franklin,+Maine&t=m&z=9

    It turns out there are 9 Baptist Churches in Franklin County, Maine.

    This is different from Franklin, Maine. Franklin is not even in Franklin County.

    He emphasizes the unpaved backroads. I am sure there are many of them. Northwestern Maine is the less inhabited part of the state. So I am sure that there are long distances and lots of costs involved. Most of the action and the people are closer to the coast and to Freeway 95.

    And people move from rural to urban settings in tough economies. So I don’t wonder that he is seeking support.

    I can’t say good or bad about the appeal. The video is awful, the music worse, but a slick production would have undermined his “we are living well below the average income for this area” spiel. As with most IFBers or fundamentalists, he puts a subtle emphasis on political conservatism.

    I would not be inclined to support his work. There are many other good works to support. At some point he may have to decide whether to move south and east too.

    1. Franklin, Maine, is not in Franklin County. It’s over on the Down East coast (and, BTW, has an independent Baptist church).

      Lincoln, Maine, is not in Lincoln County.
      Lincolnville isn’t, either.
      The town of Washington, Maine, isn’t in Washington County. It should not be confused with Washington Township (an entirely different place), which isn’t in Washington County either.

      There used to be two Woodlands — one in Aroostook County, one in Washington County. It used to be that when a person mentioned Woodland, the response would be “Which one?” They were a hundred miles apart, had separate post offices and separate ZIP codes, until the confusion (after more than a century) got to be too much for the Postal Service, which insisted that the Washington County post office use the actual incorporated name of the town, Baileyville. (No one, not even the locals, EVER called it that.) Once that happened, the Baileyville name stuck, and now even the media use it. Too bad, really.

      Skowhegan, prior to 911, had house numbers. The interesting thing was, though, that people chose their own. Odd and even sides of streets meant nothing, and sometimes there were even duplicate numbers.

      Maine is a fun place in which to live. We love to ignore convention. πŸ˜€

      1. Texas apparently followed Maine’s example when it came to naming towns and counties.
        Houston is not in Houston County.
        Austin is not in Austin County.
        Bowie is not in Bowie County.
        Crockett is not in Crockett County.
        Hill County is not in the Hill Country.
        And so on.

        Texas has 254 counties, and it’s hard enough to keep them straight without all the name confusion.

  14. At this time I would like to ask for your help in our vital short term missions project. We are calling it “Proclaiming the Kingdom in the Magic Kingdom.” We will be distributing Gospel literature at Disneyworld in Orlando for one week. I know this is officially banned, but we ought to obey God rather than men. Disney is a hotbed of wickedness with heathen from all over the world – queers, hippies, movie watchers and wimmins in shorts. Won’t you help us reach them?
    This project won’t be cheap, so please be generous in your contributions. We need park hopper tickets for me, my wife and her mother and our 15 children. Wise stewardship of time will require us to stay at a Disney resort property. We also need to rent an electric scooter for Kim’s mom. We also need 18 round trip airline tickets from Cedar Hills,WV. We will have to have first class tickets because of Mamma’s gout. Our 9 girls need new matching culottes so they can be a good testimony and the boys would like matching ties to go with our custom printed polo shirts. Speaking of printing, we need to print 5000 copies of my tract “From Cinderella’s Castle to the Lake of Fire.” Please send your donation to Pastor Jim, First KVB,Short Hair, No Pants, Traditional Hymn, Hyles affiliated Independent Babtust Church of Cedar Hills, WV. (Please hurry, souls are dying and we want to fulfill this mission before we go back to homskooling for the year.)

    1. I love this! Of course, I would add that IFB’s aren’t the only ones guilty of this kind of stuff. It seems like every evangelical church takes a “mission trip” and its always to a tropical place like Costa Rica, Jamaica, Belize, blah blah blah. And when they return they have about a thousand pictures of hanging out on the beach and a handful of pictures of passing out tracts one day in a market.

      Way to have a free vacation…umm..oops..I’m mean impact the world with the Gospel.

        1. Wikipedia says 3,000 feet πŸ™‚

          I can’t think of too many towns that high… Davis and Thomas maybe.

      1. My church won’t take up a missionary unless we’ve already $15/mo committed in faith promise.

        Plus we give a generous love offering for those who come speak during deputation, usually in the $75 range.

      2. Ooh, I feel That pain. I just spent $200 just to GET to your church (if I didn’t have to spend more to outfit my family to match your particular dress code–even though your website has the “Come as you are!” bait and switch). I’ve now lost a valuable weekend I could have been even just visiting and developing relationships at a church that Does understand missions. But now we’re .08% closer to our goal, thank you! πŸ˜€ At this rate if we can keep up the highly unlikely success rate of three new supporting churches per week (Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night in different places–been down That exhausting road too) we’ll be able to get to the field in only 8 years instead of 24!

        I’m really not bitter, just very selective in the churches we contact. If the church doesn’t even have a website, mmm no. And then besides the obvious negative keywords like “KJV, stands without apology, standards, gid-honoring music” pretty much if the pastor is wearing a tie in his picture, mmm nope.

        I don’t think we’ve ever had a $5 church, but we’ve had several at $25/month. Livin La Vida MissionΓ‘ria since 1995.

        PS Not too many people or churches “vacationing” in our corner of the Amazon (except Uncle Wilver and his wonderful fam–no vacation, that). One church was very interested until they found out they’d have to overnight in BogotΓ‘ on the way down 😯 (We’ll be kidnapped and murdered in our beds!) and they wouldn’t be able to escape to an “American-style” hotel every night. ❓ Not even kidding.

        1. No church where the pastor wears a tie in his photo?
          Surely you exaggerate?

          Anyhow, I’d love to see your mission sometime, but my finances won’t cover a trip to the Amazon, and it doesn’t sound like you’re in a position to pay for my journey. 😐

        2. @Maoos –
          I would LOVE to visit you sometime. Currently wrapping up my school and new baby on the way but maybe next year or something. Drop me a line.
          (PS I was in the Amazon basin in Peru a few years back – AWESOME experience)

        3. Iquitos? Pucallpa? We’re right on the borders of Brasil, Peru & ColΓ³mbia, right in unreached and uncontacted people groups territory. BG, come on down when you can. Dr. F, I’m sure we can find somewhere for you to put your … profession … to use. πŸ˜†

    2. My above mentioned Fundy aunt and uncle are always trying to make a fast buck. They once got a wild hair to purchase 2, 5 day passes to Disneyland – however they were only going to use them for 2 days then sell the rest at a profit.

      They go to Disney and on day 3 decide to stand outside the ticket windows and try to scalp the tickets. The Disney officials were not amused, and asked them to leave. As they are walking to their car, they contined to try scalp the tickets. A guy was interested, but wanted to make sure he wasn’t getting ripped off -so my uncle goes with him to the ticket windows to check the prices. Disney security appeared and told my uncle he had 10 minutes to leave Disney or the police would be called.

      My aunt and uncle were mad they lost money.

    3. Our former fundy-church had a missionary that came off the field and decided to go start a new mission work. His work was to go to all the fairs and carnivals and hand out literature. So the illustration isn’t too far from the truth.

      Thankfully the church shortly dropped his support.

      http://www.agm-ffci.org/

    4. Your appeal sounds strangely believabe; there has got to be some poor Fundy pastor who would plead this with a completely straight face. πŸ™„
      How about I just contribute to the first-class ticket for Kim’s mom? I figure the rest of the family can just tough it ou–I mean, suffer for the LAWD back in coach. πŸ˜€

  15. I live in an area that, like Maine, is fertile ground for fundy missionaries. We get preacher boys from fundy hotbeds come up to start churches here to reach us unchurched northern heathen. Some of these churches do moderately well, ministering to all of the expatriate southerners.

    I have also been, while in a mainline-type church, under the pastorate of a native of … rural Maine! He had arisen out of that spiritual poverty, earned his doctorate, and spent his career ministering to the people in this church. Oh! That he had had a fundy to come knock on his door in Maine before it was too late!

  16. Although I don’t think its the case here, I’m sadly convinced that many missionaries end up doing projects like this, because they have a heart to be a missionary, but fundamentalist churches are often cheapskates and they realize it will take 6 years of deputation to get to a place that really needs a church planter.

    BUT…if you stay in the U.S., you can get as much support as people will give you, get your wife a job or get a part time job, and you’ll be just fine.

    And you’ll be able to report that deputation only took you 6 months, unlike all those other lazy missionaries that had to spend 4 years on deputation just to get enough support to get a visa to their country of choice and to survive.

  17. I’m really sickened by the process of deputation in general. Many support their missionaries for $50 a month, and force the missionary to visit 300 churches just to drum up enough support. But they get to brag that they are missions minded.

    Then there is the lack of understanding that all mission fields aren’t created equally. Some places have higher costs of living and poor currency exchange rates. And obviously a single missionary can get by on a lot less than a family of 10, which always confused me, because there seems to be lack of desire to support single male missionaries. Oh well, I guess they wouldn’t support the Apostle Paul then.

    Other than that, deputation is just a popularity contest and a bad game of having to tap dance between all of the petty differences between the different fundy camps. All of these pastors have missionaries in, make them goal soul winning and work their VBS, with no intent of ever actually supporting the work.

    But they say, it builds faith, which it may. But does the end justify the means? Is it really right to put someone through a 4 year hazing ritual before sending them to the mission field?

    1. There are some churches that do more than $50/month. I do think it would be good if more churches supported fewer missionaries for a higher dollar amount per month, and were just more picky about who they supported. I don’t know.. the whole system is flawed, but it’s kinda hard to change it when it already is in motion the way it is.

      1. The easiest way to stop the system is to stop participating in it. If a church wants to support missions, they should seek out missionaries to support and not the other way around.

    2. You mean missionaries from the First Independent Fundamental Baptist Church of Perpetual Deputation? Oh, yeah, they paraded through every year and every year they had 2% more towards raising their support than they did the last, hey-men? Honolulu! They were bound for the Bible starved lands of Montanna, Idaho, and the Dakotas where there is no solid Bible preaching and folks are going to hell left and right because the Independent Fundamental Baptist missionary can’t get to the field any sooner… πŸ™„

      1. I guess it never occurred to them to actually go out there and find a job and support themselves??? Oh, wait what am I thinking, you can’t be in full-time Christian Service and hold a secular job!
        This is what I mean when I say the IFB system is designed to enable empire building and draw men of lesser character into its ranks of leadership. If missionaries had to do it like William Cary did, then there would not be much, if any, world exporting of the Fundie excesses and errors.

        1. Hmmm. You mean that when Paul the Apostle made his living making tents in Corinth he was not in full-time Christian ministry? (Acts 18).

          Shocking! Or maybe he was just doing it to get at-tent-ion!

        2. I don’t want to say I don’t believe in home missions or that none of them are worthy of support, but as you said, why not get a job for personal support and only solicit occasional donations for worthwhile ministry expenses? The idea of regular monthly support is foreign to Scripture anyways. It seems like all the support the Apostle Paul received was to sustain a specific need, and definitely wasn’t a regular monthly salary.

  18. Where did the ridiculous idea of traveling around begging for support, and putting on missions conferences come from anyways?

    And how is faith promise any different than prosperity gospel?

    Okay I’m done with my IFB missions rant. Carry on.

    1. Probably because if they officially banded together an organisation to help missionaries get support to go out there, that would look like a denomination. They prefer to continue with the notwork that allows pastors to silently move to a new state in the middle of the night when the police start sniffing around.

    2. Larry, I agree with the idiocy of only spending $25, $30, $40, $50 per missionary as you noted above. This really does need to be changed.

      I like getting to actually meet the missionaries we support; I DON’T like the practices that keep them on the road for years and years.

  19. Was this guy driving and taping at the same time? I had to stop at 2:30 because he just went on and on and there were 6:00 minutes left. He could have had better music than that repetitive Rescue the Perishing(might piano accompaniment. Rescue the Perishing might be a good Grand Old Hymn post.

  20. I have looked up a 2011 National Institute of Health report on alcohol consumption by state.

    That claim that Maine is in the top ten for alcohol consumption?

    Not. Even. Close.
    Not even in the top twenty.
    And declining.

    That claim in the video is bullcrap.

      1. It is good to be reminded (once again) to look up the facts. I will, if and when I ever go to another missions pitch.

        In my opinion, if someone has to make their case by telling lies, then their case is worthless. And if the case is not worthless, I certainly could not afford to trust my money (or the Lord’s money, however one wants to gussy it up!) to an untruthful steward.

        And it shouldn’t be passed off as just “a mistake.” It isn’t a matter of “that’s what I was told!” It is a matter of easily looking something up to verify and validate the information. Relying on hearsay and not looking something up is the mark of a lazy intellect — another reason not to entrust moneys to this character.

        I know, I know. I am told I am being harsh, even by my wife, when I take this attitude. But this is important, in my opinion.

  21. I don’t post much and now that my computer is in the shop much less. However I had to get my 2 cents in since I live in NH on the Maine border. First fact is that Maine and NH being next to Canada is of mostly French extract.Therefore mostly Roman Catholic. I m a convert from the American Baptist denomination to Catholic. Believe me when I say that there is no need of more ifb churches around here. Every town has more than one Baptist church of whatever flavor. There are a number of Free Will Baptist up here. In my city alone thee are three IFB Churches. Then many other independent churches. Many non-denominational churches. I see no need for any more churches of whatever flavor as we have in several Pentecostal churches and other fringe churches, Maine is already overrun with any type of church you could possibly want…

  22. Regarding youth ministry books the guy mentioned – none of them tell you to wear your backwards or ripped jeans. They tell you to be yourself and to treat them as human beings. This coming from a 47 year old youth ministry volunteer with 19 years experience.

    I once had a young man tell me that teens know hype when they see it and know when you are legit.

    1. There is a perception in IFB circles that “liberul” churches try to appeal to unchurch youth with various attractive gimmicks to “reel them in”.

      This is apparently what he is talking about.

    2. The backwards ball cap thing was really chic about 20 years ago. Not now.

      Aside from that, I agree. Most teens don’t want adults in their lives to be “cool,” they want them to be real. If you’re comfortable with yourself, they will know it. If you’re putting on an act, they’ll know that, too.

  23. You know, the good news is if this guy doesn’t keep his support level up, he can always go join the overinflated office staff of the local IFB mission board. Then he can live off of taxing other missionaries and raking in missions conference speaker fees! I never understood why churches would pay a $500 love offering to a speaker for a missions conference and then can’t seem to find the additional cash to increase support or support a new work.

    1. As a Pastor I would never ask anyone to come for a week and not give them at least $500. I’ve been a stateside missionary in prisons. Churches give you peanuts most of the time. As a Southern Baptist now I laugh at deputation. It’s senseless to drag your family half way across the country to beg for money. Also, in fairness to all mission boards not all of take a % of the missionaries support. The office had its own support.

      1. I’m not saying to short the speaker of his fee, but rather not have the conference at all, if you aren’t going to be able to increase your missionary support. Just take that $500 you would give to your speaker and give it to your missionaries and find some other way to make your church “missions minded.”

        I understand some IFB boards don’t take a cut, but yet they do in one way or another. They either take an outright percentage, a per check processing fee, or a “donation” from the missionary, which isn’t technically required, but the pressure is put on for you not to be a cheapskate and short the mission board.

        And for the boards that raise their own funds, they are still cannibalizing mission dollars. I can’t tell you how many churches there are out there that can’t support new projects, but are bogged down with supporting countless “home office workers.”

        Of course you need office staff, but I’m saying from first hand experience, that the big IFB mission boards like Global Faith, BIMI, etc. have overinflated staffs filled with people who retired from the mission field, but didn’t want to go and get a regular job.

        I would submit that if you were to hire a consultant to come in and evaluate the mission board as a business, there would be quite a few laid off because they lack value that contributes to the organization.

  24. RTG, no, it shouldn’t be passed off as “that’s what I was told” but it doesn’t always occur to Fundies to actually perform factchecks. Why would anyone in their religious hierarchy say something untrue is how they think. Plus the fact that many of them are so ambivalent about technology (some are proudly ignorant of computer functions) they would feel guilty about going online to do research.

    My ex-pastor’s wife always spouted the PCC party line about Harvard not being accredited. I believed it until I decided to check. Surprise, surprise. However, it never occurred to me to check until I started having doubts about the Beka/PCC empire.

    1. George, go away, you’re bothering me. Quit posting stuff where it doesn’t belong.

      My above post was supposed to be in reply to RTGmath.

      BTW, there was a guy named Carl Stevens who was up in Maine and became a preacher. He migrated to Massachusetts, duped a wealthy woman into giving lots of money to his “church” known as “The Bible Speaks”, was sued over it (and lost). TBS declared bankruptcy and moved to Maryland and it now goes by a different name. Walter Martin’s organization even investigated the group at one point.

      1. Frankly, I think he (the guy speaking in the video) just made the “factoid” up out of thin air, just to over-dramatize the necessity for his mission. I’m not against missions, but as has been noted, the area is not really lacking in churches and ministries.

      2. Hey! I know about that guy!

        He was a friend of my grandfather’s. I’ve met some people who followed him down to Maryland but eventually retreated back to Maine when things got too weird.

        1. Stevens died a few years ago. Seems there was some kind of nonsense going on in Maryland too, but I never really found out what it was.

          I know some people who went from Massachusetts to Maryland to go the Bible “college” he set up down there. They got burned by that place. Very sad situation.

          I could discern the weirdness of that cult but couldn’t see what I was in. Sad.

      3. Yes, when I lived in Ma. he came to speak in a school in Framingham. I used to go hear him because a Baptist preacher said that he had a very special message for youth. I only went more than once because all the pretty girls would hug every one and tell them that they loved them. He was actually in Berwick , Maine. They still have a small group meeting there. I remember once he told every one that Bobby Kenedy was a convert but was keeping it quite until he won office. There is so much more I could say about Carl Stevens!!

        1. Under the principle of Fundy exaggeration (see below), that probably means he once met Bobby Kennedy, or saw him from a distance, and Kennedy didn’t spit in his face, so he counts RFK as a convert.

    2. People who believe that the Church of Satan controls major American corporations are not likely to be fact-checkers.

      In addition, the right to exaggerate is assumed to belong to all Fundy preachers.

      Some people around here drink? We have the highest per-capita alcohol consumption on the planet!

      The college down the road allows students to go on unchaperoned dates? That place is nothing but a non-stop orgy!

      She wore a sleeveless dress? She runs around naked in public!

      1. The Church of Satan controls major American corporations? Anton LaVey would be so proud! Although it would be hard to tell through all the hysterical laughter.

        1. You know, for the last few years I have told people I don’t need the Devil to make me do it!

          Neither do corporations.

          And as an unabashed academic, had I been in the Garden with Adam and Eve, I’d have beaten them to the Tree of Knowledge. Yup. No contest.

        2. BTW, he inferred that Satanism is widespread in Maine. Apparently it must be so widespread that everyone else is ignoring it, because it’s been at least 25 years since I last heard anything about it.

  25. If I was to choose the one thing about fundamentalism that bothered me the most, I would say it is their penchant for lying.

    From a young child I remember my mother saying, “Always value the truth above all else.” While I realize she meant her version of “the Truth,” I think I was impressed by the need for an external standard.

    And with fundies always talking about having “The Truth (TM)” well, when I finally realized what was said to be truth was often deliberate, outright, pants-on-fire lies, I almost lost my faith.

    The first major faith crisis I had was when talking to my Academic Dean at the college I was teaching. He was a biological chemist. I made some off-remark about evolution, and he handed me a biology text. He was not unkind, but he was blunt. I didn’t know what I was talking about. I had come from a religious school that taught creationism (BJU) and creationists used distortions and twisted definitions to make their case. He told me to go read it, and learn what science really had to say about evolution.

    Well, he was my academic dean. And he was a Christian! So I took the text and started reading. And I started getting angry. I started researching other places. I picked up my beloved Creationist books (I had many) and discovered that Whitcomb and Morris actually cherry-picked a quote-oid, pulled it out of context, and created a lie about what a scientist was saying about evolution.

    And the more I studied, the angrier I got.

    I started corresponding on a forum called talk.origins. I found an alarming pattern. The “creationists,” the ones who said they “believed God,” felt free to lie, to use scurrilous language, to be thoroughly rude. The scientists (often grad-level science students) were polite and often went out of their way with extensive explanations of scientific processes. They tried to correct the language and terminology misuse of the creationists, only to face fury and scorn.

    And my world tilted even more. This was positively backwards to what I would have expected! I thought Christians were supposed to be polite and to tell the truth, to gently instruct those who were out of the way!

    I almost stopped believing. I was seeing no evidence that “salvation” actually made a difference in people’s lives. I could see no indication that the Holy Spirit created a tender conscience in the hearts of the believers. Instead I saw a cesspool of hatred and malice.

    I did not stop “believing,” but I had to make a choice. It occurred to me that perhaps I did not understand what the Bible was saying in certain places, or what the reason for certain passages were. Obviously, I had a lot of rethinking to do.

    And the rest of that story can wait till later.

    But that was my first major crisis of faith. And I started finding lies and distortions of the sort I found in creationism in other places. Prophetic ministries. Doctrines. Regular preaching.

    I had become very sensitive. One time my IFB preacher was talking about evolution — a subject he knows nothing about! — and was botching things so badly I shook my head in disgust. And he called me down from the pulpit. “Stop that! Stop that!”

    I have had several more crises of faith since. I am still a Christian. But what I see in Fundamentalism now is far, far from being Christian.

    Sorry for the rant. But I thought it was relevant.

    1. That was a relevant rant.

      I think that a lot of the untruth I heard wasn’t so much that the people were purposely lying, but they had no reason to suspect that what they heard/read was untrue. It is still wrong, and a rather insidious way to manipulate and control the masses.

        1. Yes, there is outright lying. But a lot of what I heard was akin to what a young child might say the day after Christmas — “Gramma, Santa brought me presents!”. The child believes in Santa Claus, even though there is no guy in a red suit at the North Pole who flies through the air in a sled powered by reindeer. Is the child deliberately lying? No. He is reporting what he thinks happened.

        2. But thank God he disrespected the atheists as they dedicated their monument. That is his God-given 1st amendment right – to speak truth to those people.

    2. My faith crisis was also regarding creation/evolution. I remember some Reg. Baptist Press kids book that showed a picture of coloniel children reading a Bible, captioned, “if it was good enough for education then, it’s good enough now.” Hearing Francis Collins speak at a Yourh Specialties convention about God using evolution to create and reading his book, “The Language of God” also helped me understand how science and faith work together.

      1. I LOVE YS! I’m going this year even though I’m technically not currently involved in youth ministry, but my friend is and it’ll be cool to hang out, and it’s always an awesome weekend!

  26. I just love these guys who think they are the only “real Christian” church for a hundred miles. “A good, Bible believing church” was something I used to hear a lot….Wow…..Everyone thinks they have the exclusive truth. Tribal religion…ugh.

    1. We had missionaries on deputation come to our church who were headed to San Diego which they said had “no Bible-believing church”. Some of our members BELIEVED them. We had to explain, “No. They mean KJVO, no CCM, no pants on women, etc.” We wouldn’t have normally had them in, but there are a lot of IFB churches in our area and the missionary had booked a nearby church for the AM and really wanted a church for the PM too.

      They were a sweet couple too, but, even though my husband and I were still identifying as IFB ourselves, we knew we weren’t that kind of extreme.

      1. San Diego, California has a gazillion churches, including over a hundred Baptist churces.

        https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&q=baptist+churches+in+san+diego+california&fb=1&gl=us&hq=baptist+churches&hnear=0x80d9530fad921e4b:0xd3a21fdfd15df79,San+Diego,+CA&ei=977hUY6xK8KVrgHV-4D4CA&ved=0CO4BEMgT

        But the way to play this game is to say that only churches with pastors named Big Gary are true, Bible-believing churches. It’s all a question of defining your terms.

  27. Wow, Never realized there are so many fellow Maniacs reading this blog! We should have a convention!

    You know, there is nothing wrong with someone saying “I’ve felt called to preach in this here place.” Doesn’t matter if it is in the middle of nowhere or in NY City.

    The problem is when you try to portray something that is not true.

    In this case, we have the following:
    * He is called to Franklin County, but the video is from somewhere else.
    * He is lying about number of churches.
    * He is lying about statistics.
    * He is dissing every other church out there.

    Just shine your light!

  28. I’m a Mainiac and, trust me, Maine is NOT socially conservative. High taxes, gay marriage…… This guy is like most people who are “from away”. He does look like he’s enjoyed his share of Moxie, red hot dogs, whoopie pies and lobster with lots of melted butter.

    1. You mean “lobstah”! πŸ™‚

      Whenever I’d visit my grandparents, we’d always eat those red hot dogs! And I grew up eating my mom’s delicious whoopie pies!

    2. We don’t have Moxie around here, so I Googled it. Wikipedia says it’s a soft drink originally marketed as a medicine ‘effective against “paralysis, softening of the brain, nervousness, and insomnia.”‘

      I think I need some of that softening-of-the-brain remedy.

    3. Yes, drfiddleedd. You have identified your self as a true Mainer when you used the expression “from away”. When I first moved to NH 25 years ago I was amused by that expression from away!! Nice to know their are other people from around here, you (or I) always seem to think that there are no people that came here that live near you.

        1. I’m a native born Mainer and I can take you to the cemetary in a small town in Washington County where my grandfather and 5 preceding generations are buried. Top that!

    4. I recently read a reference to a “Coffee Pot” in a Stephen King book. Stephen King lives in Bangor, Maine, and I knew my parents had eaten Coffee Pots (a sub sandwich) whenever we visited there when I was a child.

      I mentioned it to my mom. Her response: “Why are you reading Stephen King?” (I’m over 40 years old.)

  29. This is America, almost everyone has heard the salvation pitch. TBN owns about 10 stations that are on Verizon Fios.
    Telling Americans about Jesus is like telling them about the NFL, Kim Kardashian, or Coca-Cola.
    “What is this ‘Coca-Cola’ and please tell me more about what’s in that little red can.”
    There are just more preacher boys than churches. This is nothing more than preacher boys whose father s don’t have their own church, trying to create a new church by taking members from exiting churches.

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