87 thoughts on “Logos”

    1. You will find a copy of The Message in your seat pockets today during our flight!. Please read and enjoy.

      The ESV’s are in your over head bin.
      The NIV’s are on my drink service cart.
      THe KJV is on the “no fly” list. Sorry! :mrgreen:

      1. Uhhh, since the youngsters spilled the Koolaid on their award VBS KJV Bibles, there have been lots of flies on the KJVs.

        I notice, though, some dead flies on the floor close by. Just what was in that Koolaid anyway?

  1. Isn’t that considered “Constantine’s Sword” when you convert the cross into a weapon? I guess that’s more of an anti-semetic, but it’s at least nearly as offensive to use the gospel as a weapon against people anywhere.

    1. I’m hoping that they are thinking that the Scripture is “the sword of the Spirit”.

      Or possibly, that is just supposed to be the earth’s axis.

      1. If anything the scriptures would be, but when you depict the sword plunged into the earth (a fairly common depiction), the inhabitants of earth are being declared your enemy, not the spiritual wickedness Paul says to be warring against. I always hate that war rhetoric, cause it almost always goes awry from original intent.

    2. Constantine founded western civilization as we know it with the KJV1611. That’s why we meet in church buildings, and why all the framing fathers were Independant Fundamental Baptists. Come on people, get your history straight!

      1. And that makes the Declaration of Independence an even more remarkable document. To think that the Founding Fathers had time to devote to the DoI around their busy schedules of soul-winning, bus ministries and Thursday night visitation.

  2. Looks like a stiletto to me. If they can’t smack somebody over the head with their gospel, maybe they can use stealth to stick it in between the ribs.

  3. Wow. Most Asians don’t read English, much less Elizabethan English. Thee and thou and art and such.

    Shouldn’t the Bible be translated into every language so that everyone in their own language and tongue can hear the wonderful works of God? (to paraphrase the reaction of people to Pentecost)

    KJV for Asians is hubris. 1611 KJV is beyond the pale.

    And like John is Awake, I too do not like the “Sword” metaphor. We are not supposed to be going to war against people, but against sin — and in our own lives first!

    The biggest problems that “missions” has had is that all too often “missions” turned out to be a tool for implanting Western culture (and control) instead of just spreading the gospel. The two are not synonymous.

    And in fact, that is why China is so opposed to missionaries.

    In China, the Boxer Rebellion was an anti-Western revolt, and missionaries galore got caught in its rage because too many of the missionaries were allowing themselves to be used as cover for Western agents. China suffered under many Western imports — as opium addiction — until it threw the Westerners out.

    Had Missionaries been more savvy to the treachery of Western business and government interests, they could have warned the Chinese government of the plots going on. As it is, “Christianity” and “Western Imperialism” have been understandably conflated in Oriental viewpoints. Even today, China views missionaries as covert US spies.

    It isn’t pretty.

    1. Missionaries working as agents for their home countries is pretty common. I had a friend who was an MK in Mexico who immediately began working for US army intelligence upon his return to the States (he could not only understand Spanish but identify local accents and slang). The CIA recruits heavily among Mormons due to their missionary/cultural experience. Wycliffe translators are rumored to have cooperated with the CIA throughout their existence and I have never met a group more prone to put their country above anything else than IFB missionaries.

    2. Agreed that most people in Asia don’t know much English at all, so Elizabethan is going to be a stretch. Among the educated classes–and I’m talking engineers, not just their arts & sciences crowd–I’ve found many colleagues actually understand English literature, including Shakespeare, better than most Americans.

      Not that this excuses making the Gospel more difficult than necessary for anyone, but just interesting to me.

    3. It was Western Missionaries and their descendents, who took over most of the prime land In Hawaii (thou shalt not steel unless it’s for god’s empire), used the US Army to underthrown the Hawaii government and turn Hawaii into an American territory and later a state.
      American missionaries are bringing witch paranoia to Nigeria and homophobia to Uganda.
      Missionaries are just a tool of Western (or Islamic) colonialism. Deport them all!

  4. I have a friend who used to teach English in an Asian country. He recommended the NIV for his friends there who wanted to learn and practice reading in English. But then, he also did not believe that he should teach the importance of American Culture to a society that had been well established long before the Saxons took over the Britons and fought off the Danes.

    On another note, I find it amusing to read of the greatness of Western Culture having been able to spend time in China and discuss their almost 5000 years of history. We really don’t need to copy the colonialist view of missions. The IFB (and some others) export Americanism like the USA is one of the horsemen of The Revelation.

      1. And yet, their mis-interpretation of Luke 6:38, Malachi 3:10,Joshua 1:8,and even Philippians 4:19 (among others( are the equivalent of a prosperity gospel. I don’t understand how they miss that.

        1. Ha, thet’s ferry funny…Thet remeinds me of the tyme I fourgot my lunch for scool.

  5. This is not a very good logo, I agree. But, I hate to break the narrative, the KJV is not used in the ministry of IBMA workers. I know two of them; and they use Bibles translated in the native language. I know that this may ruin the story line going on; but it is the truth. (the missionaries I know are not using translations of the KJV either) Hope that this post informs the conversation some what. The logo still is awful.

    1. Putting KJV on the logo creates the confusion. I can definitely see that they didn’t put much thought into the logo, and probably didn’t think that would be confusing, but it doesn’t make much sense really on any church logo, but definitely not on a missions to foreign lands logo.

  6. I am a ‘fundy’ (not the mental part I trust). I believe this mission agency was started to assist those from outside the United States who are going to Asian countries to do mission work. We support a couple through this agency who are from the Philippines and are working in Cambodia. They are not only preaching the gospel, but training nationals, digging wells, providing water filtration systems for villages, and assisting nationals in developing their own indigenous churches. The logo is probably more of an attempt to appeal to the mindset of the average ‘Fundy Pastor.’ I think many times we (as fundies) have become so insulated the we fail to consider what message we may be presenting to those outside the fundy world. IMHO.

    1. It’s good to know that that the group’s logo doesn’t represent what they actually do in Asian countries. I believe you’re right–if you’re in the Fundy mindset, the symbols mean something very different from what they seem to be to those outside it. Because. . .ugh.

  7. The “Asians” part bothers me. Acting like they can treat people with thousands of cultures and languages all the same just because they happen to be on the same continent. It’s smacks of white ignorance. It’s also a bit of missionary slight of hand to say you’re doing outreach to a large area rather than a specific city or people. That way, you don’t have as much to answer for. No tiny church to hide, no attendance numbers to bloat. My parents changed from missionaries to Albania to Missionaries to the Balkans for this reason. Less accountability and basically a green light to travel freely and unaccountable in a large area with lots of beaches.

      1. Oh, because people in the Philippines somehow got insanely obsessed with a Bible in a foreign language (KJV) and wanted to start an American-styled IFB mission to their own people completely independent of any American influence. Sounds legit.

        1. With the same crazy motivation, I will begin my Bible studies in Mandarin this week.

  8. My former pastor was/maybe still is (?) the president of IBMA, and my former church still hosts a meeting every year for all the pastors in the organization. It was always a great opportunity to put the Christian school choir on display, since we were required to go to the meetings as “special chapels”, as well as a chance to pat ourselves on the back for rescuing students from the evils of public school. Most of the emphasis is on missions to the Philippines.

  9. One of my favorite bloggers is a liberal Christian missionary in Southeast Asia, she said she has encountered IFB missionaries out there, and they tend to be the most obnoxious, condescending people to the locals.

    She said the local residents just welcome them in, humor them a while, and send them on their way, they never feel the need to confront them about their attitudes, because they think that would be impolite, but she said she has a hard time trying to hold back what she really thinks of them when they come around.

    Ironically enough, growing up with parents who were followers of Bill Gothard, she knows IFB teachings and attitudes quite well.

        1. Doctrinally speaking, that woman is a mess. If you want to fall into the ditch with her then it is your choice.

        2. Sheldon, thanks for the link. Lynx, Sheldon is not a believer. We respect each other because we believe in helping out humanity. Not because he agrees with me on heaven or the Bible or any of it.

          As to what I believe about the Bible, I affirm the deity of Christ, resurrection, etc, etc. Baffles me that people get worked up that just because I don’t believe all unbelievers go to hell. I left fundie land for a reason…because at the end of the day, it matters more about helping people than whether me, or you, or Sheldon is right about the Bible.

  10. I love the fact that they are reaching the “Asians”.

    That seems like a manageable target group. It only includes one continent, a few hundred languages, a couple of dozen countries, a couple of hundred distinct cultures….

    1. I wonder if any group with a name like this ever started out by asking an actual church somewhere in Asia whether there was something they needed that they couldn’t get locally and if so, what.

  11. The idea of foreign missions like this, brings to mind the need for accountability. If IFB pastors are prone to misbehave due to little or no accountability (sexual and financial issues inevitably ensue when one answers only to oneself), imagine how IFB missionaries make out. Sexual abuse and financial misdeeds abound but with nobody to report it or report it to not much happens. ABWE and New Tribes Missions are neck deep in sexual abuse where they protected the criminals and missionary kids and local children were thrown under the bus. Abuse that is no longer acceptable in North America is still quite possible in third world countries. Some missionaries gladly enjoy their liberty in their chosen fields.

    1. Your post reminds me of the plan to help Bob Gray (Florida, Trinity Baptist) avoid prosecution for sex crimes against children…He was sent off to Germany. When he was FINALLY arrested (22 victims came forward!) he was trying to flee the country again.

      One of the lessons I learned from the Bob Gray scandal was:

      It is suspicious when a seemingly successful pastor suddenly wants to become a foreign missionary…when it doesn’t make sense for him to do so.

      I still remember Bob Gray coming to my former IFB church seeking support for his missionary work. My former pastor made much of the fact Gray could have retired…but nooooooo….he wants to spend his last years on the foreign field.

      Now we know why.

  12. A little research into the acronym of IBMA:
    First up was “International Bluegrass Music Association.” Then “Independent Battery Manufacturers Association,” followed by “Intelligent Battle Manager Assistant,” and “Integrated Business Management Application (software). Oh, and finally the great and renowned “Independent Baptist Mission for Asians, Inc.” Should have been “ick!”

  13. mission “to” asians would suggest that they are taking the gospel to the Asians. Mission “for” Asians suggests a shelter for down and out Asians who need a place to spend the night (like the such-and-such mission for unfortunate girls).

  14. So, I am a missionary (not IFB-whatever) in the Philippines. We happened to attend an IBMA Church in the very rural town we live in because the other options are even more of a cult.

    Want to comment on the guy several comments back that said that IBMA workers use the translated work and not the English KJV- that is not entirely true. IN our area ALL of the IBMA churches are exclusively using the English KJV- and have shunned and even at times persecuted those using mother tongue scriptures. I have colleagues who are Bible Translators who have had nothing but grief from these churches, and their pastors.

    We have been cautiously introducing mother tongue scriptures to the people via audio visual resources and the response so far has been good… but they still ask- when we give them a bible in their mother tongue- “is this KJV?” oh my…

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