219 thoughts on “Spring Fever”

    1. Please. I owned the art of breaking the rules and getting away with it….. Er, I mean, um… Ahem, I always abode by the rules as set forth to me, and encouraged others to do the same, as characteristic of a proper fundy lady.

      *snort*

      1. I was pretty good as well. Should have been kicked out starting my second semester. I have no idea how I never got caught. I’m not that sneaky.

        1. I was never at any kind of “Fundy” establishment but my own Ulster Protestantism has its own Rules. I got to be pretty good at fracturing them

    2. There’s a video on YouTube of some Bob Jones students dancing in their dorm room. Ironically the guy who filmed it ratted the boys out and those boys got expelled. A parody video was made of it set to Lional Richie’s “Dancing On The Ceiling”.

      Also, some girls from Bob Jones made a video of them “wearing britches” in their dorm room set to The Tubes “She’s A Beauty”. Good thing Schaap will never see it as he’d beg to preach at Bob Jones and do his “polished shaft” sermon.

    1. I think that was what offended me the most. That’s exactly how I felt we were being treated (at BJU, in my case): as if they thought that the only thing keeping us under control was their rules and their constant oversight. So much for personal integrity or the presence of the Holy Spirit. Many of us were like Daniel who “purposed in his heart that he would not defile himself.” It was insulting to be treated like criminals or babies who had to be under a watchful eye all the time.

  1. Thanks for working on an archive Darrell. That site’s data should have a future, or someday people wont believe those forms and that lifestyle were actually real.

    1. My comment from the other recent PCC discussion:

      “The better alumni of PCC have these early adopters to thank for the blossoming of the IFB-criticism movement. They have a lot to be proud of, in spite of the outward culture of that place.
      I thank them and salute their courage (I attended a regular college.)”

      The Student Voice, IMO, was the beginning of the internet-based reform of the independent baptist “college” movement, and should be saluted with permanent hosting of their treasure trove of data.

      No student should ever arrive blind to PCC BJ WCBC HAC, that should be the goal.

      1. Completely agree! It’s mind blowing now that I was actually THRILLED that I had not paid for an e-mail account at the time Student V happened, cause I didn’t particularly want to fight that fight, and just wanted to get done & move on with my life. I also often forget that PCC had the cajones to ban people from reading the Bible together. I remember the funniest thing ever, a friend said that just to be safe he wasn’t going to read his Bible while a student ever again.

      2. Perhaps a new website should be created that allows former students of those colleges to voice their experiences, just like the Student Voice so long ago.

    1. Thus that’s why Hyles wore dark sun glasses all the time ala Ray Charles.

      True story:

      Pastors School 2007 Larry Brown said he wouldn’t go to Florida because “He’d go blind seeing women in shorts.”

        1. Dr. Brown may have to pay you a visit. Be sure and the television as he goes crazy if he sees a television.

  2. So what? People are more romantic in the Spring time? Does this mean if you’ve got a long distance relationship with each partner on separate hemispheres, they can be more romantic twice a year???

    1. You nailed it. This idea is rooted in old fashioned southern racism: the idea that people from warmer climes were more likely to be “wild” and sexually indulgent.

      1. I think it’s less that and more the line of thought also taken up by Tennyson in “Locksley Hall.” It turns out that human conception rates are highest when the days are approximately evenly divided and 50F < daily temperature < 70F. This assertion is in a comprehensive report from the Journal of Reproductive Rhythms(!), which also cited the weakening of this fertility upswing in more greatly industrialized areas.
        Interesting stuff.

        1. That IS interesting. I never thought of considering the influence of temperature or day length.

  3. PCC was always on my list of schools to not attend, and these posts continue to show it was a good decision.

    The Fundy U I attended right out of High School had the same rules, but relied more on the fact that there were many people in the Dating Parlor than the occasional Checker that strolled through.

    Although, I may have gotten a few points on Natalie’s point system even in front of all those people, that’s been a long time, so the Statute of Limitations will have run out.

    Second Fundy U, I was married to the girl from U #1. When on campus we were supposed to follow the same no contact rules. The appearance of evil thing, since visitors would not know who was or wasn’t married. Points there too.

    Maybe that contributed to our rearing our children without a lot of Pharisaical rules, and more of a “here are good reasons to do/not do these things”. I think they behaved better than we did, and we had more rules.
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm…………….

      1. That was the rule. I don’t remember if it was a written or an unwritten rule. I also don’t remember being overly concerned with the rule, either.

      2. You know, the visitors might not realize what those gold bands on our fingers were for, and think bad things about The University.

        We have made it a point to hold hands and show we like each other during our years working with children. Many of them have very poor models at home, and we wanted them to see that you can like each other and get along as married people.

        1. At PCC I was called into the dean’s office to be told that I should not be holding hands with my husband while on campus. I rolled my eyes after I left and promptly ignored them. I was obviously pregnant at the time and if anyone saw us it was pretty clear that our relationship included more just holding hands. Maybe I should have made my belly disappear while on campus so that none of the females would be tempted to try to get pregnant. ๐Ÿ˜†

        2. My first daughter was born during finals my second-to-last semester. When my wife was with me on campus that semester it was obvious we were not single students, and as I recall, I would hold her hand as we walked around the campus. After Rachel was born, I’m pretty sure it was still obvious, since I don’t remember any dorm students with infants. Infantile friends, but not infants.

      3. I never attended a fundy U, but my beloved was a Hac’r for a semester or two (off campus local). I visited the campus only 2 times… The first time, my wife and I went to see a Christian movie in the auditorium. Somebody approached me and (obviously noting my wedding ring) said, “I know you’re married, but you need to take your arm off the back of your wife’s seat. It is a temptation to the unmarked students”. I asked, “why would they be tempted to put their arms on the back of my wife’s seat?” The interloper looked confused, not ‘getting’ my attempt at Marx Brothers humor, but I told him not to worry, we’re leaving. (All this occurred during the opening credits of the film). We went home and made mad, passionate love. (Amazing what strict rules against “touching” can do for one’s libido.)

        Btw, the second (and last time) I visited there was last summer, shortly before “jack fell down and broke his crown”. I was attending a funeral service in which JS praised a former staff member of the college, whose son, I later discovered, admitted to taking libraries with young boys while teaching at the FBC grade school/ high school.

        Ahhhhh…… Standards of behavior! Verily, verily….

        1. Oh, and “libraries” should read “liberties”. (Although, I suppose his actions DID speak VOLUMES about his hypocrisy)

    1. My wife went to BJU and we sometimes joke that it would be fun to dress like students (shirt and tie for me, hose for her) and stand on that bridge in the middle of campus and make out passionately and wait and see how long it took for one of the demerit-nazis to come over and confront us.

        1. True, but the simple face that you are obviously not a student means you can act up all you like and there’s not a bloody thing the faculty can do about it. I say, go to BJU and get as close to the edge of indecency as you can! ๐Ÿ˜ˆ ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ˜›

        2. I pretty much haven’t been worried about what other people think for a long time. Maybe that is one reason I was such a poor Fundy.

  4. the north korea of “colleges”. I went there right after high school thinking that, “it couldn’t be all that bad”. every area of life was controlled and monitored. I remember my personal property being searched while in chapel (i.e. room check). My friends that brought cars to campus had them searched for illegal music. the only thing the place had going for it was the cost, but for a worthless degree, i guess the cost should have been low. i was a 18 year old male with a pretty dirty mind (or so i thought) yet the rules and the statements made by the admin showed me i was a prude compared to what they thought about. the campus is beautiful but the bones are rotten. i find it interesting with all the focus on sex there never has been a “jack schaap” type of problem there.

    1. Not that you know about. They may well have done a good job hiding certain facts up till now.

      My bet is that in the next few years we will be hearing things about more and more fundy schools as people who are no longer under the influence ralize they have a story needing to be told.

    2. Not that you know about. They may well have done a good job hiding certain facts up till now.

      My bet is that in the next few years we will be hearing secrets about more and more fundy schools as people who are no longer under the influence realize they have a story needing to be told.

      Honestly. We see much of this as old news, but it is still relatively recent. We are only now beginning to see the crumbling of Old Fundamentalism. It will take some years yet before some of the darker secrets can be opened to the light of day.

    1. Pastors School 1996 was held in Chicago International Amphitheater and on the flyers it said “Amphatheater” I guess that’s Bob Jones or P.A.C.E.S. phonics since by 1996, Hyles and all of his schools were done with Abeka.

        1. It must have cost Hyles a fortune to run that place since he spent so much money renovating the Auditorium at FBCH.

    1. Molly,

      Were you there during the days of Greg Mutsch? Mutsch was pastor there and I believe was also Dean of Students. He looked and sounded just like Casey Kasem. If you closed your eyes while listening to Mutsch preach, you would have thought you were listening to “American Top 40 Radio”.

    2. Mutsch and Peter Ruckman were both targets of Hyles and his cronies (Schaap, Larry Brown, Al Lacy, Jim Vineyard, Joel Smith, Tony Hutson).

      I did some research, Mutsch was in charge of the Masters/Doctoral Theology program and also served as Dean of Students for a while. He’s also referred to as “Pillsbury Baptist College most famous alum”.

        1. Dr. Greg Mutsch a.k.a. Casey Kasem. Yes he’s regarded as PBC “greatest alum”

        2. PBC or PBBC? I’m from Pillsbury Baptist Bible College in Owatonna, MN. Is that the college you’re saying?

        3. OK, I asked my mom and he did go there at PBBC at around my mom’s time. Apparently even then Mutsch thought way too highly of himself. I can assure you that we definitely don’t consider him our “greatest alumnus”! My mom says he would be the one calling himself that.

        4. Yes at PBBC. Maybe that is one of the reasons why Hyles didn’t like Mutsch because he thought too highly of himself. Maybe another reason Hyles didn’t like Mutsch was because Mutsch sounded just like Casey Kasem and Hyles was preaching against secular as well as CCM music.

  5. Has anyone ever considered that rules like this make temptation even worse? In militiant Muslim nations where religion is part of the state covering woman up so that no skin is showing creates huge problems where things like rape and assault are so common. I just have to think that making such rules creates more problems then it solves.

      1. I read it to mean that when a culture goes to extreme lengths to protect modesty, it actually creates a highly sexualized atmosphere. Instead of ensuring virtue, those rules make everyone constantly think of sex.

        For example, at BJU, I wasn’t allowed to sit at the same table in the library with a guy, so if I were to go into the library and try to find an empty chair, I’d be thinking, “Oh, there’s a table with lots of room! Wait. There’s a guy at the end of the table. I can’t sit there. Guys and girls can’t sit at the same table because they might want to talk, to date, to kiss, to …” It just made people hyper-sensitive to gender.

        I think his reference to Muslim countries was that one would think in a land where woman are forced to walk around under black blankets, that purity would have been achieved, but there are lots of stories of how women are often assaulted despite the overbearing strictness of their culture’s rules.

        1. Pastor’s wife got to the keyboard before I could… ๐Ÿ™‚ Let me explain it this way if I can. I have a two year old son and every day I come home from work I have a leather bag where I keep all my “things” and although my son Indie has no idea the contents of this bag he will spend the majority of the day trying to get into it. He knows he can’t touch what is inside and although he has no idea what is inside it is a temptation for him despite the hundreds of toys in the living room. He knows that the contents of the bag are of interest to me so therefore his curiosity he can not deny. I let him touch the outside of the bag but he knows he is not aloud to open the bag.

          The same rules apply in the previous illustration.

        2. I could make a rule that says you can’t touch the bag even though really what I don’t want him to get at is the contents of the bag. Satan did something similar in the garden. God didn’t say don’t touch the fruit. Adam and Eve could have used the fruit for playing a historical game of baseball for all he cared.

        3. The more hedges you place on yourself that are unbiblical the more this leads to temptation. It’s a pretty easy paradigm to understand. We see it when we raise our children. Temptation is not a sin. Acting on that temptation most certainly is a sin. Understanding the difference is where a FUNDY stumbles though life.

        4. Dr. Fundystan, I think that was exactly his point. If I can be honest here I come from a reformed New Covenant perspective on the issues of law and grace so before I get off explaining myself I want to make sure I am not accused of being a heretic as I know from reading this blog for a few years reformed people aren’t really welcome here.

        5. ๐Ÿ˜ฏ N-O-W I find out I’m not welcome around here… ๐Ÿ™ *sigh* Wish I had known sooner. Thanks for the heads up Daniel. ๐Ÿ˜‰ ๐Ÿ˜†

        6. It depends. There have been some very vocal opponents to reformed theology on certain threads, but there are also several reformed folks too.

  6. No wonder people go off the deep end with they fundy “colleges”. For so long they’ve had Big Brother-in-Christ looking over their shoulders, they have no idea how to act when that restraint is released. Daniel makes an excellent point.

    1. It reminds me of Satan in the garden. Did God say do not touch the apple or did he say do not eat of the fruit? In many ways PCC is making the argument Satan made in the garden.

      1. It’s what is known in psychology as “setting an emotional focus”. The classic example is: When a person is instructed that ‘For the next 3 minutes, clear your mind, then try NOT to imagine a pink panda.’ The subject will find it impossible to refrain from seeing (at least for a fleeting instance) the image of a pink panda in their “mind’s eye”.

        The ironic truth here is that being given the RESTRICTION of an image sets up an emotional focus, and a struggle against it, where previously there was none. As someone in this thread already pointed out, the subtle serpent used this as a ploy to good effect in the garden. And, it seems to me, Fundy U RULES, and their harassing enforcement unwittingly accomplish the same damage.

        1. Off-topic, but I meant to thank you for your kind words in another recent thread, Troublewit. Now I can’t remember which thread that was…so I am responding here. Thank you! :mrgreen:

        2. Your welcome… I can’t recall the thread either, but whatever it was, I meant it truly. From the bottom of my heart and the depths of my soul.Honestly. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  7. The religious rulers of the time that Jesus walked the earth tried to pervert the spirit of the law by adding to it. I don’t see anything different happening here. Spy on your brother in Christ to make sure they meet your extra-biblical standards is nothing new under the sun or should I say SON?

    1. I taught at a Christian school that used PCC’s A Beka curriculum. One principal had a habit of standing outside open classroom doors just out of sight of the teachers inside to listen to lessons then she would write you up for some little allegedly inappropriate thing she heard you say. I was written up once for talking about how languages “evolve” over time during a lesson on word roots. Because using the word “evolve” means you have endorsed the theory of evolution, I guess. Same principal used to walk through the staff parking lot peeking in car windows looking for “contraband”. She couldn’t do it with student cars because they had to park on the streets.

      Spying is a huge part of that culture.

        1. I beg to differ! Our IFBx Pastor’s wife was the principal at the church’s school for years! What better way to keep tabs on everyone!

  8. Even in treating people like uncontrollable animals, they don’t get the science right. Most human babies are made in the winter months when there’s nothing else to do. ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

        1. Five of ours were in the Fall. The other three were in the Spring. We run hot and cold.

  9. One of the Pharisees asked him to eat with him, and he went into the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. And behold, a woman of the city, who was a sinner, when she learned that he was reclining at table in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster flask of ointment, and standing behind him at his feet, weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head and kissed his feet and anointed them with ointment. Now when the Pharisee who had invited them saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would have known who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, for she is a sinner.”

    Jesus would have gotten kicked out of PCC.

        1. NEW-WINE!!! WELCHES!! WINESKINS!! BLAH BLAH BLAH!

          MY LORD DID NOT MAKE ALCOHOLIC WINE!!

          etc./lol.

    1. Speaking of drinking wine, Hyles used to joke that he and Doug Fisher would get drunk together if we ever had a Woman President. Guess Hyles and Fisher never got to touch a drop of liquor.

  10. My wife and I were once VISITING an IFB campus and were yelled at because we were kissing. I replied that I had a license to kiss my wife whenever we wanted.

    1. Back when my husband and I were engaged, we were visiting an IFB campus. He and I were sitting on a couch, and his arm was stretched across the headrest behind me. I rested the back of my head against his arm, and the RA on duty saw it, and immediately went to find the head of the accountability department, who came out to scold us. We told him we weren’t students, and that we were going to be married in about 50 days. He said “then in 50 days, it will be holy for you to have physical contact.” He never did explain what was so unholy about how we were sitting. ๐Ÿ™„

      1. If someone spoke to me that way *while I was a visitor,* I would find the president’s office, give him a piece of my mind, and explain to him why I would be telling everyone I know not to consider supporting such a hateful place.

        Rules should not be forced upon the guests. Guests who are considering giving lots of money.

      2. At Southwest Baptist Church (sponsor of Heartland Baptist Bible “College”), they have a rule that all HBBC students must sit in the balcony of the church and leave the floor area free for non-HBBC church members. They enforce this rule by going up to every visitor that looks about college age and interrogating them as to whether they are “Heartland” and why they aren’t sitting in the balcony. This happened to me twice and I have seen it done to other guests too. My wife’s grandparents go there, so I’ve been a few times with them over the years.

        1. Same with Vineyard’s “Oklahoma Baptist College”. Heartland has won the cross-town rivalry in so many ways. That’s another IFB College rivalry OBC VS HBBC but it doesn’t compare to HAC VS PCC.

        2. Yeah, OBC is so “out there” they don’t even register on HBBC’s radar screen. ๐Ÿ˜€ I mean, they ban certain colors of fingernail polish as too “brazen” (e.g., red). The local media recognizes them as a borderline military cult similar to the Branch Davidians.

        3. Vineyard’s son (Tom) runs the church and the college. Tom doesn’t have the personality or the charisma or the hellfire that his dad had. Sadly listening to him will put you to sleep as he’s very monotone. I’m tempted to go to one of their service just to see Larry Brown live but Brown is out of their price range. Their numbers at OBC have dropped significantly. Oklahoma City is lucky to have to IFB school’s and it’s known as the cross-town rivalry. Both schools are only separated by 2.5 miles.

        4. Just looked at OBC’s website. ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

          At least they’re transparent about their beliefs…

          From their 5-star website:
          “The King James Bible is the Word of God and is reliable, trustworthy, accurate, and proven. The King James Bible is the only Bible used and upheld in all teaching and preaching at Oklahoma Baptist College and is the only Bible sold in our bookstore.”

        5. OBC/Windsor Hills is so far behind the times it isn’t even funny. They still have a pay phone on the street corner next to the church and they still send out Western Union Telegrams instead of emails. At their Youth Conference, Vineyard copied what Hyles did; perform outdated Vaudeville comedy acts, girls wearing sun bonnets, praising Hyles and Vineyard. You would think that everyone at WHBC is still stuck in 1960 Mayberry.

        6. I can think of several examples where colleges are closer to each other. Louisville has two seminaries about a half a mile apart– Louisville Presbyterian Seminary, aka Louisville Seminary (PCUSA) and The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, aka Southern Seminary (SBC). Not only are they that close, but I believe SBTS sold LPTS the land the latter sits on.

  11. Thus further proving Hyles’ hatred for PCC and his disdain for Peter Ruckman and Greg Mutsch.

    The greatest rivalry in all of college is HAC VS PCC. ESPN needs to do a documentary on it and air the first ever IFB College National Tournament.

    1. Events in the IFB tournament:

      Jumping to conclusions
      Speed censorship
      Extreme separation
      Isogesis
      New rule creation
      Finding sin everywhere
      Modesty sudden death playoffs

    2. ESPN could do an in-depth feature on 3 of IFB’s greatest college Rivalries.

      #3 West Coast Baptist College VS Golden State Baptist College: The Bloods VS The Crips

      Jack Treibor thought California was his domain. Think again.

      #2 Heartland Baptist Bible College VS Oklahoma Baptist College: The Cross-Town Classic

      Jim Vineyard and Windsor Hills Baptist Church were furious when Southwest Baptist Church partnered with HBBC who moved from California to Oklahoma City in 1998. Vineyard thought he had the Southwest under his thumb until the new kids on the block showed up. If you thought Tobacco Road UNC-Duke was a rivalry, it’s got nothing on the “Cross-Town Classic”. OBC and HBBC are only separated by 2.5 miles. Botch schools/churches fight for supremacy on Bus routes and who’s choir can sing at the local mall. Vineyard lost all control when most of his graduates from Windsor Hills Baptist School announce they’ve signed with Heartland down the road. Since that time, Vineyard has stocked up on more ammunition and chewing tobacco.

      #1 Hyles-Anderson College VS Pensacola Christian College: The Holy War

      Arguably the greatest IFB rivalry that has stood the test of time and still exists today. Hyles loved competition and considered Ruckman and Mutsch among his greatest enemies next to John MacArthur, Robert Schuller, and Carmen.

      1. PCC and HAC is a rivalry?

        I guess ESPN could also cover the great rivalry between Youngstown State and Ohio State. It’s Youngstown’s biggest game of the year.

        1. In Oklahoma, the Bedlam Series (OU-OSU) has taken a back seat to the Cross-Town Classic (OBC VS HBBC). Vineyard couldn’t believe HBBC would put their campus 2.5 miles from OBC. I believe OBC-HBBC are the only two colleges (credited or uncredited) to be so close to each other.

        2. I don’t remember HAC being mentioned at PCC. BJU seemed like the big rival to me….”Start the bus!”

  12. I’ve got a fever, and the only perscription is more cowbell! (making out in the student center was once referred to in my presence as “acting like barnyard animals”)

  13. Reading between the lines w/corrections:

    Now that spring has arrived, you will want to be observant to the potential of โ€œSpring Feverโ€ pent-up sexual repression moral lapse which might occur and make sure that student behavior is appropriate. All Commons chaperones should be especially observant to toddlers sitting outside the Commons. If there is just one lone pair of unguarded, unrestrained children sitting way down by the Regency entrance, feel free to put on your Gestapo badge in order to “ask” them to move closer to the commons so you can keep an eye on them. Our female chaperones should be observant to the ladiesโ€™ spring style of clothing so they donโ€™t look like hoโ€™s and cause lust to break-out on campus. Keep in mind that tank tops and double tank tops are not appropriate for anyone other than a lost sin filled hussy.
    This is also a reminder that our Social Hall of perilous peril, Commons, and Sports Center SS chaperones should not sit down at the tables but should be sure to walk through their entire area every few minutes so as to make their presence known and induce fear in the hearts and minds of would be sex fiends and other non-sanctified adults. It is especially important that the Commons SS chaperone walk through The Palms Grille and Bookstore often and through the Social Hall of perilous peril any time the Social Hall of perilous peril is closed to the prisoners, er, Children.

  14. My aunt married a guy who went to BJU, they thought I should go there for nursing. i breiflyI briefly thought about it and PCC. Instead I went to a hospital based program and became a United Methodist. LOL. The rules were what made me think twice about going.

    Once my Fundy aunt and Uncle were in FL for a wedding and decided to visit PCC. My aunt wears pants for non church events. She was upset because. someone walked up to them and asked them to leave because my aunt was wearing pants. Of course she has no problem telling us we are wrong.

  15. Barbie Bear…dean of women. (BB:dw) I think she’s still there. Still single. The stories about her dealings with students were legendary…I can only imagine what she’s like today.

      1. You are correct. Out of curiosity I googled it after posting this, found the right spelling, and see she’s still there… Asst. to VP of Student Affairs or some such.

        1. No, that was Mrs. Bere. If you’re thinking of the one who was widowed, she remarried around 2001.

    1. I was a brand new to school, summer before the first term, and we were required to go to some church thing. So there I am with two or three guys which I hung out with, and Barbi comes up and tells us that they aren’t going to open the balcony, so we need to stop loitering and go find a seat. Now, mind you, none of us had any idea who she was, and wouldn’t have a given a shit if we did. But this was one of those events where every fundy school teacher in the Northern Hemisphere comes to campus to get their fundy cred re-up; the reason we were in the hallway was that there were 1500 drones trying to pack their way into the auditorium. So this little bitch comes back about two minutes later and tells us all that we will never last if we don’t learn to obey, and that we need to get seated NOW. The three of us immediately plowed into the crowd, pushing and shoving our way past artificially enthusiastic proles to “find a seat now”. The look on her face was priceless. We only found out who she was later.

  16. Examining the “Haters” of PCC.

    1. Jack Hyles:

    Well known in IFB circles Hyles was anti-PCC as was evident in Pastors School 1996 YouTube Video after Al Lacy claimed KJV was written by God himself and all other versions are a perversion. Hyles would scold kids publicly at Youth Conference if he found out any of them would attend PCC. Hyles also had a mini feud with Peter Ruckman and Greg Mutsch (former Dean of Students and chairman of the Masters/Doctoral Theological programs).

    2. Jack Schaap:

    Schaap merely followed the leader on this as he just continued his father-in-laws hatred for PCC. Schaap did try to make peace with PCC and with Mutsch even offering a position at HAC but Mutsch stook to his guns and declined publicly in a PCC graduation service.

    3. Al Lacy

    Lacy was a “Hyles Guy” through and through. Lacy scoffed at PCC because PCC was trying to get a slot on TBN.

    4. Larry Brown

    “The Gallagher” of IFB’s and the only man in the pulpit who still says the word “britches”. He also claimed that he would never go to Florida because he would “go blind seeing women in shorts.” Brown went after PCC when PCC defended Jerry Falwell and had Sandi Patti sing a few hymns at PCC.

    5. Joel Smith

    Smith is not as well known in IFB circles only that he is a Hyles disciple and spoke at Pastors School. His wife is from Florida and he said in a sermon “She’s the only good thing to come out of Florida.”

    6. Larry Smith

    Made famous from a video posted on here by Darrell. Smith also taught and was a principal in IFB schools and refused to use Abeka curriculum.

    7. Jim Vineyard

    Get out the rifle and chewing tobacco. Before he lead Windsor Hills Baptist in OKC and started the “Cross-Town” rivalry when Heartland Baptist College moved to Oklahoma City in 1998, Vineyard was Hyles right hand man and was in charge of the busses at HAC/FBC. He was rumored to lead the infamous “Roadway Gang” where he and his pupils bullied other students who he thought were “going against the grain”. Vineyard said he invited Ruckman to go hunting with him but when Ruckman told him he didn’t believe in guns, Vineyard went off.

    8. Tony Hutson

    Considered to the “Jesse Duplantis” of IFB’s and is regarded as a comedian with Larry Brown and Phil Kidd. Unlike the others, Hutson has “preached” at PCC and said he’d “go dancing with some of the coeds”. Hutson later refused to preach at PCC since he was “committed to Jack Hyles first.”

    9. Jack Treibor

    Treibor has his own church, school, and television program on the west coast. Treibor used Abeka for a long time but when he attended Pastors School in 1996, he heard Hyles rip up PCC and the following year at Pastor’s School he was one of the guest speakers and said publicly that “we don’t use Abeka in our school anymore. We are not liberal.”

      1. Hyles disdain for Mutsch was that Mutsch thought too highly of himself and I’m sure if Hyles knew Schaap considered hiring Mutsch, Hyles would have kicked Schaap out of the family.

    1. Where did you get this stuff from? Sandi Patty at PCC? I’d need to see video on that one. Also, PCC doesn’t address rumors in public, so a mention of a job offer in graduation, totally inappropriate, couldn’t have happened. Whatever ill will there was between PCC & HAC, PCC announced Hyles’s death in chapel and sent flowers. When BJ II died, no public mention. I’m not a defender of PCC, I just don’t want to read a bunch of fabrication.

        1. I agree I would have to see a video of Sandi Patty singing at PCC?? No way would she have sung there. In all my time at PCC I never heard of any feud between HAC and PCC, now feud between PCC and BJU YES!! The feud is only on PCC’s part – I know students who attend BJU and they have said that BJU talks about PCC like a sister school – that would never happen at PCC.
          I know where Ruckman’s house stood and the Rawson Chapel is where Ruckman’s church was. No good will between Ruckman and PCC for sure.
          Also to be fair, many of the rules on the former SV site our now non existent. The school is still strict but not like it used to be. Since Shoemaker took over things have changed as far as rules go, for the better, other things not so much.

        2. HAC VS PCC is mostly on Hyles and his cronies. He was just upset that more Hammond kids wanted to “take their talents to Pensacola Beach”.

          Hyles even feuded with Maranatha College and Bob Jones III.

        3. Fundy’s like the “Us VS Them” mentality anyway. Fundy’s VS Southern Baptist, Fundy’s VS Charismatics/TBN, Fundy’s VS Rick Warren/Craig Groeschel/Emergent/Seeker Sensitive/Non-Denominational.

          Hyles also liked “Hyles VS The World” and that included other IFB schools.

        4. @Pesnickety Polecat: The message you referenced “Why I’m not 100% for Jack Hyles” was preached in 1989 in response to the “100% for Jack Hyles” buttons that began appearing after Robert Sumner’s article about the goings-on at First Baptist Church of Hammond.

        5. @Guilt Ridden, I attended Fairhaven in the early 90s. There was seriously bad blood between RV and JH.

      1. I remember when I was there, mid-2000s, and a singing family was presented at one service. I don’t remember their name, but they would come there once or twice a year. They had an electric guitar on stage. It was halfway hidden behind a chair, and they never used it, but it was definitely there. They had us all sing more contemporary choruses too. I remember thinking, “They’re ok with this?”

        1. Jack Treibor’s church has gone to more contemporary music and even Alvin Martinez tried out for American Idol. Treibor has sent Martinez “On Tour” to sing at Fundy churches.

      2. Hyles and other fundy’s (Larry Brown and Bob Jones Jr.) feuded with Jerry Flawell for leaving the IFB movement and for promoting CCM music. There’s a YouTube Video where Brown says that Flawell was “forced to leave” IFB and promote CCM music and and didn’t agree with women wearing “britches”. Classic Brown at his best.

        1. How did you know…I can’t stop watching “Larry Smith stops a talker.” I have an addiction to it.

    2. ‘Treibor used Abeka for a long time but when he attended Pastors School in 1996, he heard Hyles rip up PCC and the following year at Pastorโ€™s School he was one of the guest speakers and said publicly that โ€œwe donโ€™t use Abeka in our school anymore. We are not liberal.โ€’

      Every superFundy seems to be too liberal for some other Fundy. There has to be someone out there denouncing Fred Phelps for being too liberal.

      1. Treibor was a “Hyles guy” so he didn’t want to make his “Master” unhappy.

        Pastors School 2009, Schaap presents Triebor with a brand new pulpit the size of Texas. Treibor said “I want to take back to my room right now”.

        1. Yes, Treibor even “Leased Alvin Martinez” to Schaap for a month to sing Sunday services. Treibor wad trying to Martinez on American Idol.

    3. If anyone ever puts out trading cards of these “all-stars”, I’d collect the whole set. (Ya can’t tell the players without ya got a scorecard.”

      1. A parody of course.

        Topps baseball cards releases the Tribute to the Fundamentalist. Trading cards that are worth lots of $$$$

        1. Billy Sunday
        2. Jack Hyles
        3. Jack Schaap
        4. Larry Brown
        5. Al Lacy
        6. Larry Smith
        7. Joel “Doc” Smith
        8. Larry Smith
        9. Tony Huston
        10. Jim Vineyard
        11. Doug Fisher
        12. Jack Trieber
        13. Alvin Martinez Rookie Card
        14. Bob Jones Sr.
        15. Lester Rolloff
        16. John R. Rice

        Cards of lesser value since they’re “Too Liberal”

        17. Greg Mutsch (net worth $.50)
        18. Peter Ruckman (net worth $2.00)
        19. Jerry Falwell (net worth $1.00)
        20. Bob Jones Jr.
        21. Bob Jones III traded for a Robert Schuller

        1. Brother Martinez isn’t a pastor just a solo artist who Triebor tried to get on American Idol. He sends Martinez on IFB churches across the country “On Tour”. Triebor also sends his college singing groups with Martinez and they auction off autographed records of Martinez.

        2. Seriously, American Idol?? How does he justify doing that? Isn’t that considered a worldly, wicked show with the word ‘Idol’ in it’s title!!

          But then again, Trieber preached against Southern Gospel music and concerts, but he now plays SGM on his internet radio!

        3. Martinez can sing. He was even at FBC for a whole month as a guest soloist. Larry Brown thinks Martinez hung the moon and stars. Once Martinez got done singing, Brown got up and said “Eat your heart out Toby Mac.” Brown and Triebor have publily bashed the emergent movement since most emergent churches play secular music with their praise band. Ya gotta love Schaap’s old sermon “No Praise Band at Calvary”.

        4. Oh yes, I heard him sing before he became a household fundie name! He’s really a nice guy, but too bad he’s so entrenched in their camp!

          Now, I can believe Mrs. Trieber wanting him on American Idol! And, THAT being justified!!!

  17. Was anyone here on SFL at PCC when Dr. Ruckman’s house was actually on PCC property? Then PCC finally bought it from him and razed the house. But I heard Dr. Ruckman used to go fishing, bring all the fish home, clean out the guts in his backyard and throw them over the fence onto PCC’s property. Just curious if anyone could verify that.

    1. I’m pretty sure it was there when I was at PCC (92-96). I worked in maintenance and had to walk by that property on my way to the maintenance shop every time… never heard of any fish guts, but I do seem to remember it was a house in its own little section over there.

      1. i lived in a dorm room that faced his yard, and parked my car in the lot abutting his property. he seemed to keep to himself, mostly. however, he sent his minions out to the brent lane entrance to scream at buses full of dating-outing couples… dorm sup told us to avoid walking on his grass, or doing anything that would make us un-neighborly.

        1. Ruckman seems like the kind of fellow that just likes to drink his coffee and play his Tennessee Ernie Ford records. I just wish he and Hyles could have had a “debate” on TBN.

  18. I spent most of high school years in Christian high schools and one of them used Abeka book which I believe is a PCC deal.

    This dress code stuff is pretty familiar. We were considered one of the more “liberal” Christian schools in existence simply because we weren’t requiring shirts and ties. This was over in Washington which isn’t exactly a bastion of fundamentalism unless of course we’re talking about Mars Hill which is a different story.

    1. Mars Hill/Rob Bell/Mark Driscoll and even Rick Warren. You can’t mention those names in the same sentence and not mention Larry Brown. Brown climbed on top of the pulpit at Pastors School 2008 and called out Warren, Mars Hills, Craig Groeschel of Lifechurch.TV and all other seeker sensitive/emergent churches.

        1. Rick Warren and Craig Groeschel on the other hand have faced scrutiny from IFB’s (Brown and Treiber).

      1. Rob Bell I know. Mark Driscoll I know. Rick Warren I know (sadly, he’s in the news again).

        But… Larry who?

        There’s a reason he’s not mentioned in the same sentence as the others. I think maybe you’re the only one on here that has heard of him?

        1. I guess most people aren’t “Down With Brown”. Brown and Alvin Martinez rocked the house at Downtown Baptist Church in Sacramento for Youth revival. They had sings painted as well as on the church marquee “Dr. Brown is coming to Downtown to send CCM music down.” Yes they actually had that on the marquee.

      2. Gotta give it up for Mark Driscoll getting Deepak Chopra to loose his cool and get downright angry during their debate on If Satan is real. I thought he was some Gandhi type, but he showed his disdain for Bible believers.

    1. My prayers are with Rick Warren and his Family. As someone who has suffered from Depression, and come perilously close to pulling my own plug on one occasion, I know that it is an issue the Church, and especially Fundamentalists can’t deal with very well.

      However. it does seem to have ignited some debate about Rick Warren himself…
      Infotunately not everybody is grieving. Westboro Baptist have THIS on their website:
      http:/blogs.sparenot.com/godsmacks/
      Unbelievable! ๐Ÿ˜ฏ ๐Ÿ™ ๐Ÿ™„

        1. Been There, I demand that you appologise – to all Klingons !!! Thay did not deserve that insult !!!

          Mind you, I would say that a lot of Fundamentalists have more sympathy for Jack Schaap than for Rick Warren

  19. Even though my wife and I are PCC grads, and my parents are BJU grads, this is one of the reasons we made sure we gave our daughter the option of a secular university.

    She chose Furman and is enjoying being treated and trusted as the young adult she is.

  20. Darrel, thanks for curating the materials of the SV. I remember this as it was my first semester at PCC. This whole clamp-down fiasco should have made me cut and run. It threw up huge red flags however: at that point in my life I was forced to attend the college and I forced myself to “give it a chance” because people who I was indoctrinated to believe were more “spiritually mature” lead me to believe God had a plan for my life. And PCC was a part of my “character building”.
    I remember upon first arriving to the campus we had access to email – this did not last long due to this “underground” news letter.
    Since it was 1996 mobile phone tech was not as affordable or accessible so this isolated the student even more.
    There was also zero internet access but we figured a way around the phone lines with a piece of hardware you could buy at radio shack that allowed you to access dial up. We had to use this sparingly however so we wouldn’t raise any suspicion. Looking back now it was a prison camp. I do cherish some memories and a lot of the great friends I made: this does not excuse the authoritarian cult iron fist wielded by the administration under the guise of “Christian” religion.

    1. My first semester at PCC left me with so many creepy feelings, especially whenever Greg Mutsch said anything. Red flags galore. I stayed because, for the most part, I was trying to hold my family together by placating one of the most difficult members.

      About ten years later I sacrificed my twenties in a college and a movement that weren’t worth it for the sake of someone who’d never be happy. I realized that I could have just walked away. As scary as it would have been at age 21, I could have done it. Maybe I should have.

      In any case, the experience learned me. I’ve walked out of other religious institutions and away from jobs when everyone told me I was nuts, and have not only landed on my feet but found myself in a better place. So much of life is a confidence game.

      1. EC, I empathize with you greatly. It sounds like we both experienced similar situations and maybe even similar thoughts and struggles.
        I can redeem a lot of the horrible things I experienced from the administration there by translating it into a skill put to use in dealing with corporate politics / workplace politics. Being subject to jackasses wielding some quasi-authority over you gives you a sense of some personality traits to identify when dealing with poor management. I guess?? I am trying to bend over backwards to be positive here.
        I personally witnessed Greg Mutche being completely irrational and just a plain jackass. He may have changed an is not like that now as this was over a decade ago. However, when I asked him recently if he remembered me he claimed he did not. This caused some fresh anger in me as this either means he was ill tempered at so many students he could not remember the incident with me specifically or he was lying or I don’t know what a third option would be….. ๐Ÿ˜ก
        In any event: these were men who were regarded as “mend of god”. I was taught to reverence these men, that these men were “mature in the faith” etc. etc. NONE of this is true of these men. They are men and that is all. And some are not very good men.

        1. Matter of fact I think we knew the same people and even worked in the same place. ๐Ÿ˜€

        2. I never had a bad experience with Mutsch but I’ve seen a lot of supervisors, all the way up to Arlin Horton himself, chew people out of being “lazy.” Working in the A Beka distribution center stocking shelves in an aisle that was over 120 degrees? Stop drinking so much water and work harder. Digging a hole in the ground in early August in 102 degree temperatures, and the blazing Florida sun and humidity? Don’t you dare stop for a minute and lean against your shovel to catch your breath. Work 14 hours scrubbing dishes on Thanksgiving? Get written up for wearing gloves– they clog the drain.

          I have to imagine that most slave owners in the Deep South were more compassionate. It was really nuts.

        3. Some workers apparently did that. Which meant that no one was allowed to wear gloves.

  21. It is funny reading some of these comments. It is ashame that some IFB churches give others a bad name. I am glad I go to one yhat has had a great testimony for the 40 yrs it has been in existence. As far as Dr.Larry Brown hating PCC I don’t fibd that to be true at all. Some of his younger kids took the A Beka curriculm. I guess I don’t understand most people s hatred towards IFB churches.

    1. It’s pretty simple, really. The IFB do not teach an accurate representation of the bible. Instead, they use the bible to teach harmful falsehoods. People are hurt by it. They get angry.

    2. Love your name, by the way.

      Let me be the first to say that there are some very nice people who are in the IFB churches. They are often very nice.

      Which is often part of why, when they do the hurtful things that they do, it makes it so incredibly painful. Nothing says loving like putting a person in front of a church for church discipline because of a bankruptcy caused by medical bills. Nothing says loving to a family having trouble with their kids than ensuring they get publicly kicked off the deacon list.

      So much of it is about appearances. There is a lot of love if you are in the right circles, show the proper reverence and admiration toward the pastor. But if you have real questions that they can’t answer, you become a threat. And they love nothing more than to see you on your knees at the altar so they can share in your confession of sin and repentance.

      Jesus did not make people grovel for attention or for acceptance.

      But with a name like “FIREnBrimstone” you sound like you have been burnt, too. Maybe more than you realize. When you need to tell your story, we’ll hear you without judging you.

    1. Wow. This Westboro Baptist Church’s blog!

      Oh, I know you had said it before. I just hadn’t had a chance to look at it. It is incredible! (Really! Or should that be Uncredible?) It is horrible.

      Who in their right mind would want to worship their god?

  22. Is PCC somewhat admitting the humans are animals? That like other animals humans have a mating season. That there is a time of year when humans have more sex or think about sex more often?

    Actually is time of the year when people in western societies have more sex. Itโ€™s the Thanksgiving โ€“Christmas Holiday season. That is why there is an increase in births in July & August.

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