202 thoughts on “Any Takers?”

    1. I would do it, but the “Costs and Registration” link gives me pause. It would have to be free.

      Even then, I think I would have something more important to do, like living a life.

      1. The thought of going to any of these fundy meetings ever again while I live on this earth makes me want to lose my nice dinner. If anyone goes and wants to give us a report, be sure you have a strong stomach. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

    1. I think it’s a tacit admission that fundamentalism really hasn’t tried to deal with these issues in the past. So they’re going to have to “expand their vision” to include those fighting addictions and disorders — which on the face of it isn’t a bad goal

      Unfortunately, I’m afraid the treatments they’ll be proposing will only make these poor people worse.

      1. I agree Darrell. It would be much better to see professionals. Even if one didn’t want to go the “psych” route, he or she would go to Exodus International who have been dealing with sexual addictions for years(for example) before he or she went here! Yikes!

    2. Actually, considering who’s doing the session, it will probably be very insightful. Dr. Ormiston worked with inner-city kids all over the mid-west and started programs to help kids of addiction and imprisoned parents. Very down-to-earth dude that doesn’t at all fit the stereotype of BJU. Of all the people speaking at this thing, he would have the best and more valuable things to say. He won’t “Jesus Juke” everyone.

      1. I agree with this. I had Jason Ormiston for a Bible class my last year at BJU. He is probably the best Bible prof I had. BTW, he holds no degrees from BJU. That was the best thing about him. Besides that, he really was involved with significant and successful inner-city ministries located in the actual inner city. His father refused to bus kids to the suburbs like most other older white-flight suburban churches. Their ministry was intended to be city residents sharing the gospel and worshiping with other city residents. I respect what they are doing.

        Some of the other speakers that I am familiar with, I do not hold the same respect. Some of them I do not know at all, and have no comment.

  1. Sounds like a good way to bait-and-switch them thar’ evildoers and cleanse our student population a little bit. “You there…the man who bought that raffle ticket….God is calling you elsewhere!”. Will being a gluttonous lard bucket be considered an eating disorder for this event?

  2. Well, considering that the keynote speakers are Mazak, Minnick and Berg….my stomach is starting to hurt. Also, read Mazak’s intro to what he’s going to “teach”. The whole tone is what we must REJECT. This is when my ears turn off. How about this instead. Let’s talk about how God’s LOVE is more powerful than sin and that by His grace and through the power of the Holy Spirit we can be victorious. And that is a PROCESS, not a quick fix.

    1. nope. but i’m sure something about tithing will be. i could just see these people taking up an offering at this place. in addition to the fee for attending to see what its even all about.

  3. Addiction Proofing Your Own Soul โ€” Mark Minnick
    “No one is immune from the life-dominating effect of habitual sin, especially when we live in a culture that promotes the love of pleasure. Every believer must โ€œtake heed lest he fall.โ€ If not, the life-guard attempting to rescue the drowning swimmer perishes as well.”
    Preparing Your Congregation โ€” Rusty Smith
    The challenges presented to the church by broken families and unstable individuals can be overwhelming if the church is not prepared and willing to minister to those โ€œnot like us.โ€

    Yes, because you wouldn’t want to catch their sin. Because lets be honest, “those sinners” make sin look mighty fun. Our otherwise good hearts must prepare for their tempting ways. These men have hurt struggling believers with their teachings isn’t is ironic that “those not like us” get more sympathy.
    Please someone attend.

      1. Wise words indeed. The truth is that simple, I started drinking when I was in college, but when I saw how expensive a habit it was and knowing of the trouble it could become, I stopped. No programs or silly shrinks, just will-power and seriously searching the Bible and seeking God. Have a bad habit, don’t do it.

        1. Umm, I highly doubt you had a drinking problem or were actually addicted, or you wouldn’t have been able to “just stop it.” Occasionally drinking too much is not an addiction. Addiction is needing to be under the influence of a substance on a constant basis. Nobody gets out of that without some serious help.

        2. And I beg your pardon if I jumped to conclusions about your experience. But nothing in your comment indicated that you were actually addicted to alcohol. Someone who is addicted is not influenced by practical reasoning such as “this isn’t healthy” or “this is blowing my budget.”

          If you were truly addicted and were able to stop just like that, well…good for you. Very few addicts can do that. ๐Ÿ™„

        3. IN COLLEGE? Are you serious?

          Its much harder to stop if you start to drink when you’re 12. And especially if your whole family started that young, and therefore shrugs over it. What’s the problem?

          College? WHO got to college? Certainly not me!

          You don’t even see how blessed and privileged you were, do you?

    1. Believe it or not I have heard fundy preachers preach this exact thing. They’ll name some sin and then just say “Stop it!” as though that’s all there is to it. At least this video was funny, when the fundy preacher preaches that it’s so simple as that, it’s very frustrating.

      I want to say, “I have this delightful fantasy of flapping your rump til you can’t sit down!” I guess to that they’d say, “Stop it!” :mrgreen:

  4. Unfortunately Fundamentalists simply do not have answers or biblical answers for these people. The only thing Fundamentalists can give these people is damnation and the hope that if you trust in yourself a little harder maybe you’ll be a better person. Boil down what a Fundamentalist really preaches and that is it. You are condemned to go to hell and if you work hard enough you might become a better person. Oh sure it is wrapped in spirituality (‘we do this through Christ.’). But what they say vs how they actually act are two different things. Their focus on the sin will forever lead them in the wrong direction. So long as they are unwilling to seek modern science, medicine, and research they’ll forever fail these people they so desperately need to reach, and it will be because they fail to realize the deeper issues that may be going on.

    They are good at pointing out sin, but sometimes you need to look a little bit deeper than the sin and focus on things Fundamentalists refuse or care to admit even exist.

    What a colossal waist of time.

    1. And worse than a “waste of time” it actually causes DAMAGE to the true gospel as people try it and realize it doesn’t work and then bundle it all together and reject Christ because of His bad representatives calling themselves Christian.

      1. The Gospel, exactly. I wasn’t looking for deliverance but I was fortunate to have it happen immediately. I know that is not how it always happens. But now what, the entire Christian life is a struggle between flesh and Spirit?
        If anything I’m more acutely aware of my sin because it didn’t matter to me before.
        Fundamentalists tell the “strong Christian” you need to Re-Dedicate, try harder, overcome by grace and sell out to Christ. But that whole Gospel thing that’s for first timers to receive.
        But they are willing to cut the struggling addicts slack? What will happen when they deem them strong enough to be making more progress? Rules, seminars, books, Christian camps? Near as I can tell the Gospel isn’t what they use in practice to sanctify people. Grace must be given in small doses and only when you are trying hard enough to merit it.

  5. This is just a little off-topic, but I thought of the time that some friends of ours invited us to their church for a Saturday night session in which the guests main objective was the promotion of what I can only describe as “snake oil.” Lots of herbs were promoted, but the one memory that sticks out was a demonstration in which a “volunteer” from the congregation holds her cell phone in her outstretched hand while the salesman attempts to push it down. In the “before version”, the arm easily goes down; then, voila, she holes this amazing item in her other hand, and no amount of pushing can depress her arm. I wanted to vomit.

    1. I have seen this demonstration done recently at the fair. I was impressed the same as you. And sadly this (whatever it was they were trying to sell) has been around for over 20 years. Because I remember a woman trying to demonstrate it to my mom way back a long time ago.

      1. The one I saw had something to do with the feet. Like a chiropractic adjustment of shoe inserts or something like that. It wasn’t an ointment or pill or anything you could actally SEE or TOUCH or TAKE HOME (unless it was really expensive shoe pads…) I don’t remember too well. But I saw the whole demonstration when I was in massage school.

      2. I’ve seen chiropractors do this. Except they usually start out by “proving” your arm is weak, then either touch the place on your spine they intend to adjust or put the bottle of vitamins / herbs / snake oil they intend to sell you in your other hand. They test again, and your arm magically becomes stronger! Sometimes they’ll have one or more other supplements fail to “prove” that they are finding the exact supplement you need. I told one of them, “If these pills can make my arm stronger when I just touch the bottle without actually opening it and swallowing one, I’ll just buy one pill, put it in a smaller bottle, keep it in my pocket, and touch it whenever I need strength, heatlh, or good luck.” He was not amused. ๐Ÿ˜€

        They call this “muscle testing” “applied kinesiology” (which has nothing to do with real kinesiology) or “AK”. They do the same things with “leg length checks” where they have you lie on a table and tell you one of your legs is shorter than the other, then touch your spine or set a pill bottle on or near you, and tell you it changed. Even practitioners who believe this stuff admit it’s very easy to fake.

        And it gets stranger. One of my instructors had been part of a group that used these techniques as a form of fortune-telling. They called it “Asking Innate”. (Short for “Innate Intelligence” the chiropractic concept of a mystical force that regulates all bodily functions, but also has strong spiritual overtones.) Practices and ideas like this eventually compelled me to leave the field.

        Sorry to take it so far off-topic, but:
        1. Yes, some people believe in miracle tonics that increase muscle strength in seconds, sometimes without even being taken internally or making physical contact.
        2. People selling this kind of stuff are especially good a preying on gullible religious people.
        3. I’m starting to see some striking parallels between the cultish aspects of Fundamentalism and the cultish aspects of chiropractic. I was raised in Fundydom. I didn’t have a choice. I’m embarrassed to say I fell into chiropractic cutlishness on my own.

        1. My mom is big on muscle testing. I think its completely absurd.

          I’ve not been to a chiropractor in a really long time. Back then, I never had any trying to sell me herbs and such. I remember comparing foot positions but it had something to do with the pelvis. I wonder what happens if you actually have a shorter leg?

        2. I prefer to hide key identifying aspects of my life but you have forced my hand. I’m married to a Chiropractor. He owns Palmer’s(father and sons) books and I was horrified reading the metaphysical, philosophical, gnostic ramblings of both these men, 700 pages of crazy. DD had some kind of spiritual experience with a messenger where he re-discovered the ancient technique. His name for god was Innate. They wanted it classified as a religion. They liked to quote scripture and re-define terms and compare Chiro to the great religions of the world. I’d liken it to New Age create your own reality thinking. . Could start a thread on this easily, it’s quite fascinating. I’m really conflicted actually. Honestly, I haven’t had an adjustment since

        3. When I worked at Earth Fare, people would often ask me to “muscle test” them, and I felt weird since I thought it was crap, but of course we wanted the $ale and so… I did it. ๐Ÿ˜ณ

          I think this goes along with the cooperating-with-lies thread!

    2. Wow! Thanks for all the responses. My personal opinion is that these quacks do have every right to market their products and it is up to the consumer to either accept or reject them. However, when they begin using the church as the place where they demonstrate and sell them, they have crossed the line. Any pastor who invites these hucksters the their places of worship is not serving the same God as I serve.

      1. I had a pastor who used to sell Nutrilite or Shaklee or one of those multi-level marketing things in the church. My mom had been struggling to sell it and was pretty resentful when the pastor swooped in and took EVERY potential victim, er, customer. People who were absolutely NOT interested before amazingly were as soon as they were invited to the PREACHER’S house for a pitch. (On the postiive side though, he did so well with it he eventually quit the preaching and devoted his time to vitamin sales.)

  6. Also, I’m completely convinced that God can transform an addict to sober. I’m living proof but it was a fruit of believing the Gospel. It was supernatural. I’m grateful that He removed those urges in an instant. I also know people can get sober with twelve step programs, lead normal lives and be complete atheists. People can also find “religion” and turn their lives around. While I’m glad they realize people are hurting I half wonder if they truly understand these things.
    And if you are not trained to deal with people who are half schizophrenic from using meth, sexual predators or any of the other “extreme” cases they seem to be targeting then you should probably consider studying the topic because a seminar does not begin to scratch the surface. This could be exposing people to serious danger.
    You ever see those movies where people try to take down monsters with a crucifix? Bad results. Or a biblical example, Acts 19:13-16

    1. “You ever see those movies where people try to take down monsters with a crucifix? Bad results.”

      Well yeah. The crucifix is a Catholic thing so it will never work. ๐Ÿ˜†

  7. That is truly disgusting. No amount of condemnation and biblical discipline can help people in situations like those.

    I remember the day at my fundy school when the administrators paraded a poor girl in front of the group at chapel. She was instructed to “apologize” for attempting suicide. It was appalling. I’m not sure whatever happened to her; she left the school shortly thereafter. A few years later, a classmate actually did commit suicide but it was covered up as an “accident” for years.

    When you’re told over and over that everything you do is wrong and god hates you for even thinking certain things, is it really any wonder there aren’t more suicides in fundyville?

    1. They give no hope, only shame, to those suffering from depression and other mental disorders. Some refuse medical/psych intervention because they have been conditioned to distrust it. In one case that I know of, the result was fatal.

      Fundy false beliefs and teaching about mental illness are DEADLY.

      1. I told my parents repeatedly that I was suicidal. They’d immediately cite that I’d “opened the door” to Satan” and my rebellion was the cause. This always prompted ransacking of my bedroom for “evil” items and further loss of privileges. Yep, Fundies are great at dealing with these things…

        1. I had a friend in Junior High who confided to me that he wanted to kill himself. I told my parents who told me I ought to tell the principal. He turned it into a big deal and searched his locker and even called the cops saying (afterwards) he thought the boy might have been on drugs. (He wasn’t) It was horrible. How are kids supposed to know how to deal with this stuff when the adults around them can’t.

        2. I thank God you were able to pull out of that in spite of their downright ignorant and careless treatment of you.

      2. “Fundy false beliefs and false teaching about mental illness are deadly.” I agree. Unfortunately, Evangelical Protestantism, has such an ‘anti-intellectual’ element within it, that even some of ‘these’ christians can be similarly ‘blind-warped’ in their thinking about these distressing forms of human suffering. The ‘apathetical’ attitudes, the cold hearted dispassion, the absence of any mercy, the ‘cold love’ that comes from these ‘judgemental monsters’poor excuses for human beings with a strong negative condemnation, they only look down on human suffering as something to shame the suffering about and all of that is what rocks my soul! The scripture “without natural affection’ comes to mind. Such dispassionate people seem incapable of loving ‘anybody’ outside of their pathetic narrow, elitist ‘know it all’ clubs. As far as the ridiculous course offered by BJU goes. I would pay people to avoid it if I could. Seriously damaged people taking such a course, could end up in emerg or the psych ward, after those ‘bimbos’ get their cruel hands on them. I feel sorry for anyone who’s really hurting, attending. But if someone could attend, keep their sanity, and critique it, it sure would make good ‘copy’ for ex fundy sites! ๐Ÿ™„

  8. This looks like Bob Jones answer to HAC’s Reformers Unanimous. http://www.reformu.com/

    RU has its roots in Hyles Anderson and is HUGELY popular in the IFB world. It was featured at this year’s SOTL. Bob Jones is playing catch-up on this one. They see a RU is raking in a following and capitalizing on thise issues.

    Of course we can blame all these adult problems on the fact that fewer folks are making us of the teenage behavorial modification institutions because the “bitter” survivors have put them in a bad light. So, they need an adult behavorial modification program where the “adult” can willingly submit to the behavorial modification techniques.

    Exchange one of these worldly addictions for a religious one.

    1. “Of course we can blame all these adult problems on the fact that fewer folks are making us of the teenage behavorial modification institutions because the โ€œbitterโ€ survivors have put them in a bad light. So, they need an adult behavorial modification program where the โ€œadultโ€ can willingly submit to the behavorial modification techniques.”

      I’ll say it again, how often do they give you the full Grace of the Gospel? They’ll parcel out grace when there is progress or penitence. I don’t think it’s all bad, I’m sure some will be helped and might even hear the Gospel. Taking someone in such dire straits and giving them care and the Gospel is a wonderful Christian thing to do.
      But in this context how much can it differ from the standard sermon everyone else gets? How much help will it be?
      Do better, be better, Jesus is counting on you… here’s a little grace if you really need it.

    2. Seriously? RU is HAC? My parents are neck-deep in that @#$% and I never knew the connection. Of course, they claim to be anti-HAC (since they’re pro-Chappell). Wait til I tell em…

  9. There must be some inside jokes here that I’m not getting. Other than Berg being described as “seasoned”, I don’t get why this is such a big deal.

    Seriously, can someone enlighten me?

    1. I have to agree with you. Perhaps it is just the BJU HAC aversion (which I also agree with a little) but I was not from either camp. I will say that those crowds have been behind schedule on these types of programs. RU has shown some fruit, I have seen it personally.
      If fundies want to have programs like this, more power to them. If they abuse it, that is wrong. If they approach it without doing their research about all these issues they could make it worse for folks. But if they can utilize the gospel and the power of Christ while seeking to lovingly lift those in trouble I see it as a win. Plenty of folks need help.

    2. The bondage of fundamentalism is NOT the solution to the bondage of addiction. I think what you are seeing here is the idea that there is no help for addiction in what we have experienced in fundy-world. In fact, I will go so far as to say that for many, the artificial environment and heavy burdon of guilt and shame and over-emphasis on the external appearance could be contributary in CAUSING addictions rather than freeing anyone from them.

      1. Fundamentalism really can ’cause’ an addiction, and it can be called ‘religious addiction.’ There can be a lot of supertsiton, negative faith, fear and anxiety in ‘religious addiction’. people cn be brainwashed to e ;afraid of anything’ fundy bosses ‘warn’ them about. crostians can end up so afraid that, they actually have ‘mre faith’ in the devil to deceive them, than in God to protect them. the biggest lie in fundy land bindage, is, that God doesnlt heal anymore. Somehow He went on vacation from his Power to Heal, after the passing of the Apostle John! that is such a terrible lie, that demons have been teaching it in churches for hundreds of years! If God can heal a soul at salvation, would not that same God have the power to ‘heal’ a damaged person’s mind, will, and emotions? Or do people believe that God, had a bad day, and said to Himself,, “oh Bummer! I think my power just ran out! I better get another energizer battery!’ Give me a break!. God has not changed and He never will. “He is the same yesterday, today and forever.” And everbody says, Amen!’ ๐Ÿ™„

    3. Are either of these programs making use of, or partnering with, local mental health professionals, or behavorial health professionals? If not then you have a recipie for cult activity. The IFB has a proven track record of abuse and ineptness when it comes to behavorial modification, ie. The Roloff homes and their legacy clones. So once again we see the unaccountable machine of the IFB finding a way to control a group of people who are most vunerable.
      Exchanging one addiction for another. I willinly admit I am a cynic. Maybe some are helped using these “programs” I don’t know. But the IFB’s track record does not lend itself to confidence in their ability to minister effectively in these areas.

        1. Exactly.
          The truth is that some people will get better with any form of treatment, or no treatment at all. You can’t evaluate the effectiveness of treatment unless you have a control group for comparison.

    4. Do you think the Bible has every medical and psychological answer for helping someone’s body and mind get over an addiction? Do you think the Bible gives you accurate information about the causes, symptoms, and practical techniques of exactly how to treat someone with self-harm problems?

      Unfortunately, they do exactly what Tiffundy said:

      If they approach it without doing their research about all these issues they could make it worse for folks.

      It’s like they believe God doesn’t want them to use their brains and seek out professional training. And when the topics have very serious consequences (addiction and self-harm), some guys with no idea what they’re talking about are going to do a great deal of harm.

    5. The thing that “triggered” me was the fact it was taught by Berg, Mazak and Minnich.

      To Berg, one cannot be right with God unless they look and act like him and his wife (which is not anything I would ever strive for.)

      Mazak (and this is the big one for me!) teaches that there is no such thing as PMS – it’s just a lady’s excuse to be mean; that there’s no true medical reason a woman should act different. If someone can’t acknowledge something like *that*, how is he possibly a reliable source for trying medical addictions? I see blaming the victim all over this.

      1. Wow. Did not know/remember that about Mazak. I have never had any issues with PMS as far as mood goes, but when I’m doubled over in pain and vomiting I tend to be less, um, cheery than usual.

        1. We were very close with a staff family at BJU, and they were just absolutely disgusted with everything that came from Mazak. I used to hear stories of things that were said, esp. concerning his daughter, who is trying to find a diagnosis for chronic migraines. Apparently, he basically said it was all in her head (trying to make a joke, but making a point all the same.)

        2. Hmmm, I phrased that wrong. The staff member whose family I was close to had the daughter with the migraines, not Mazak. I know nothing of his family life.

        3. But it was Mazak who said it was all in her head… I left out too many pronoun antecedents. My apologies. I should go drink another cup of coffee.

      2. *treating* medical addictions… George has been taking up residence in my home, recently.

        I also realized after I re-read through my post that I didn’t clarify what I was trying to say. With these people, there’s no view of grace and love; they don’t try to help you with an issue – they condemn you. First, they isolate you from your peers and then they brainwash you, and soon you truly believe everything is all your fault. This realization is what they call “repentance” and view it as a victory, when in all reality, it’s almost a resignation of self-thought and self-worth.

      3. Being a sufferer of PMS symptoms AND migraines, that is disgusting.

        Like Naomi says, when you’re in extreme pain, doubled over, you do tend to be a little bit more grumpy than normal.

        Why do fundys always have to deny legitimate medical symptoms/diseases?

        1. The whole PMS mention is funny to me.
          This guy either never grew up with a mom, sisters and has yet to marry, or he is clueless.

          While I might think PMS is of the devil, I don’t think it is a “spiritual problem.” ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

        2. What “a” pompous ass, I mean.
          With apologies to donkeys, who don’t really deserve the comparison.

        3. He IS married, and has 2 or 3 daughters, and by now, I think they are all old enough to have experienced PMS. I wonder if he is ready to change his mind yet.

        4. I used to suffer very bad PMS, and now that season of life is gleefully over and I am on a consistantly even keel. Some women don’t get it, I have friends that claim they never had it though I hate them for it, I don’t break fellowship over it ๐Ÿ˜› . It is real and it’s just another slap in the face of women/girls by fundies to deny that it is real.

      4. I have also heard Mazak say, from the pulpit, that anyone who is depressed cannot be right with God. He believes depression is entirely a spiritual problem. No room for anything physical to be causing it. Nope, you’ve got a “heart” problem.

        1. Sometimes depression can have a spiritual cause. Like when the spiritual abuse I got from my Fundie high school made me so depressed I started having suicidal thoughts.

        2. I come from the West Coast of Fundystan. While this place is geographically separated from BJU, the message regarding depression is the same useless load of crap.

          From the pulpit the pastor said people who claim to be depressed need to stop being so self-centered and go soul-winning more. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

          A Sunday school leader’s wife told me – with complete distain – about a person in their class who “claimed” to have depression. There were times he was unable to get out of bed, and was on disability because of it. But she considered him a lying slacker because he sometimes was able to do other things…like occasionally go on Sunday school class activities, etc. Yeah, ’cause it is not like depressed people have some days that are worse and some days that are better…and maybe they are working with a doctor to try to get better and make a little progress here and there. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

          Then there are those who tell leadership about a situation where they are being emotionally abused at home…and they are instructed to stay put and be submissive. Even if their abuser has no intention of getting help. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

          No one should ever, ever go to a fundy for depression counseling…Heck, for any counseling. EVER.

      5. So now Berg is recruiting ‘clones?’ help! IT souNds like a BJU version of’the invasion of the body snatchers!’Let’s all go crazy together, and unite in the cuckoo ward! Please follow this arrow to our upcoming ‘extreme confusion’ seminar, hosted by people who don’t know what they’re talking about! โžก

      6. One thing that burns my behind the most in fundydom is how these sanctimonious males think they know everything about women when they know NOTHING. Have they ever had a menstrual period? No. Have they ever suffered from PMS? No. Yet they think they can pass judgment on women for what we go through at certain times of the month.

        Now I am in the next stage, pre-menopause with it’s continually recurring hot flushes and they don’t exactly cause bright and cheerful moods. You feel like you’ve suddenly entered a sauna bath. It makes you want to bite someone’s head off, preferably the closest sanctimonious prig preacher who thinks it’s all in your head and you’re making it up! Hot flushes are not in my imagination you stupid dolt! What I’d give to be able to curse this jerk with just one day of hot flushes and see how he likes it! The bloody nerve! ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

    6. The problem here is that they are going to approach this thinking that only the Bible has answers and anything outside of the Bible is meaningless babble. IOW they will approach this like they always do and look at the sin and ignore anything outside of a narrow reading of the Bible. The people who attend will leave there thinking they understand all the nuances of these issues and think they have all the answers. They’ll arrogantly try to deploy these methods in their home churches and be bewildered by how ineffective it is. That is if it doesn’t literally destroy lives before they realize that.

      In short people’s lives are at stake and BJU is going to prescribe a bandaid for a severed artery. I’ve seen what their answers are and it doesn’t help.

      1. Perhaps they will, but they might also get it right. That would be a shock for many I know, but it is possible.
        If they did nothing, we would criticize that as well.

        I would criticize some secular methods as well. If there were perfect programs out there we would have heard about them by now.

        If they take the truth of scripture, combine it with what we currently know about these issues and how people are affected, and genuinely seek the Lord’s help in guiding them on how to help those in need, I think it can work. If they choose to ignore the information and professional teaching that exists it will fail.

        Programs like this need to be administrated by people who are trained in these areas, but also trained in the truth of scripture.

        1. “Programs like this need to be administrated by people who are trained in these areas, but also trained in the truth of scripture.”

          That is just it, BJU has neither.

        2. Tiffundy, I have to help you see something hard: fundamentalism cannot ever be anything but destructive for people with mental illness, because fundamentalism itself IS a form of mental illness. Thankfully, one for with there is a cure. Or rather, there is a Deliverer.

          “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.”

    7. I know that this conference will end up basically touting this message: All of your problems are your fault because of (insert sin here). You need to try harder and do better and feel VERY ashamed of yourself…Tada! Conference over.

      1. Yes, you have summed it up exactly. There is no cure here, people, because there is no recognition of the reality of mental illness. This infuriates me. Fundamentalism cannot cure something which it CAUSES. Agh! This thread depressed me so much last night, I had to put down the iPad. I have a lot of fun with SFL, but this thread is a dreadful reminder that fundamentalism destroys. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

  10. What scares me is the implication that there is NO help outside of Fundamentalism and that “dicipline” with cure your problems. What about prayer, loving support from your Brothers and Sisters in Christ (as apposed to “being Disciplined” by a higher-ranking Christian) and the power of the Holy Spirit? Mind you, many Fundamentlist think that if you Read the Bible enough and pray enough, and Repent enough, that’s is all you need and Psychology and Pyschiatry or any sort of “Therapy” outside of a Preayer Meeting is Of The Devil.

  11. @Fundie Pastor –

    The big deal is what they don’t put on the brochure. They believe that any type of mental health treatment, or counseling, is wrong. The same people that would drive you straight to the hospital if you had a broken leg with a bone sticking out, would argue all day long that you should go straight to the pastor if you have a physical chemical imbalance in your brain.

    As dumb as it sounds out loud, if they can’t physically SEE the injury, they are prone to recommend the Bible, and only the Bible, as the treatment.

    I wonder if Berg thinks Stephen Jones’ ailments are “all in his head”? I’d love to hear him say THAT out loud.

    1. Exactly. I’ve heard camp counselors mock the advice one of their campers received from a licensed professional (she had shared this information with her counselor). Because obviously, a twenty year-old sophomore at BJU knows more about the complexities of psychological disorders than the entire medical community. All you need is the WILDs’ counseling leaflet. Bash ’em over the head with a couple verses and tell them to believe more about God and they’ll be fine.

  12. PS. Do the speakers recommend ANY sort of medical intervention, or do the believe as they say in one section “As always, the Scriptures are sufficient to provide the answers.” ???

  13. My hubby is a fundie who suffers from a marijuana addiction. He stays “in fellowship” as in going to church, off the pot, for a few months at a time – I think his record was 4 months. Then he stays “out of fellowship”, as in smoking pot, wanting almost nothing to do with God, not going to church (except for an occasional ‘pop in’), for several months. And now that we’re “back home” in the town we grew up in and spent our young adulthood in, he only wants to go to the Fundie church he used to go to. He’s a little upset that I don’t want much to do with it – I’m okay with a little bit of it, it leans in the direction of “Fundy lite”. The lady who was a big influence in me becoming a Christian also goes there, so I do have a couple of friends there too. The thing is, they are what I consider “strict Christians” there; and I’m not sure hubby even considered how it would effect our relationship if I became one of those! I mean, he only wants to be around most these people when he’s “in fellowship”; but I am married to him all the time.
    Oh, and I do at least partly blame the legalism he’s encountered at the Fundie church – the previous pastor that was there was very legalistic, and at that point it wasn’t “Fundy light” at all, just fundy – for his wild 180 degree swings from pothead to super religious. He seems to feel Jesus won’t accept him as he is, so he has to do the quitting and staying off pot on his own, and then Jesus will love him. ๐Ÿ™„

    1. Oh, and hubby won’t do any drug treatment at all. That’s totally Fundie influence there, he says he knows the answers and where to find them – in his Bible – he just has to stick to it. ๐Ÿ™„

      1. That is hard to deal with, Beth. I am sorry you both are going through this. There is much damage done by fundy’s condemning the sources of real help.

    2. So sorry Beth. It’s totally a fundy mindset that one must first make themselves “clean” (from sin, appearances, etc.) before coming in repentance to Christ. It is such an awful way to live. Praying that God shows grace and comfort. Hugs

    3. Your husband sounds DEPRESSED and is probably self-medicating with the marijuana. If he treats the depression the marijuana addiction will probably go away on its own.

    4. Just the very words “Fundy with a Marijuana Addiction” makes me grin ๐Ÿ˜€ . Even with the unhappy circumstances the combining of rather different ways of life strikes me as a trifle amusing. ๐Ÿ˜ณ ๐Ÿ˜€

  14. I think the main reason this raises red flags for people is because those of us intimately familiar with BJU know how these people have historically approached counseling. A couple examples …

    1) “That isn’t a physical condition, it’s a spiritual one.” This is often the first response to a problem. If the person was truly sold out to God, they wouldn’t have that problem. (It’s the answer to the riddle, “What do you get when you cross Keswick theology with medical ignorance?”)

    2) “There’s no such thing as [insert medical problem here].” Deny such a problem can even exist, and you give pseudo-validity to your initial response, which was noted above. (Mazak and ADHD is a good example of this.)

    3) โ€œHow often do you masturbate?โ€ More than one person has noted that this was the first line of questioning they were subjected to after going to various leaders at BJU for help. Those of us who were there will probably never forget (no matter how hard we try) Tony Millerโ€™s infamous โ€œWhere do you get your jolliesโ€ dorm speech. That guy seemed obsessed with it for some reason, to the point of being pretty darn creepy.

    Maybe some of those guys on the roster are pretty good (I donโ€™t know all of them), and maybe there will be nuggets of good info there. I just hope that the attendees have the discernment to weed through the crap that will no doubt be there to find stuff that will be profitable for the people they try to help.

    1. Mazak scares me more than Berg. (that’s saying something.) Personally, with my own eyes and ears, know that Mazak denies everything from schizophrenia, to Alzheimer Disease to PMS.

      However, it got worse than that. A friend of mine, (who has since past away,) had a brain aneurysm when he was in his 20’s. This poor man had a lot of problems from seizure’s to behavioral issues. His brain scans and other tests showed he only had 1/2 a working brain after the aneurysm. He was hypoxic for awhile too, so that didn’t help things either. It is a miracle he lived the 6 years he did.

      Before my friend had his aneurysm, he was in the seminary at BJU. He had graduated from a BJU a few years before. He and his young wife were planning to go into the ministry. I worked with his wife at the same ER as a nurse. His wife and I were working the night her husband was rushed to the hospital. Flat lined! (That was some experience for his wife and for the staff, “one of our own” being brought in like that.) We coded him for a long time, were able to resuscitate him, he had brain surgery, was in a medically induced coma for nearly 4 weeks. When he woke up, he had the mental ability of maybe a 3-5 year old. They had a 3 year old little boy. Because of his brain injury, my friend was easily manipulated, and would cry. Normal for the type of brain injury he had. My friend kept being told by BJU people that he could get better, if he just prayed and “did right.” Their pastor set it up for him to go to Berg, but Berg was “too busy,” so he sent him to Mazak! Despite being told by the family doctor, the man’s neurologist, the man’s wife, myself, Mazak told this man he would not counsel him unless he stopped taking his medications. Mazak told this man he would not work with him “drugged!” Now remember this man had the mental ability of a 3 year old, but he was a HUGE man! (He was on a lot of meds. Including Depakote, Neurtontin, but NOT for psych issues, those same meds are used to control seizures too.) Needless to say, the man did what he was told. Within a short period of time, he had wall banger seizures, and ended up passing away a few months later.

      I told Mazak at that time, I could not understand what he was thinking! IF he didn’t believe the doctors, the man’s wife, myself or others, did his own eyes deceive him too? The man was unable to use his left arm and drug his left leg! I don’t suffer fools well. (And I wonder why they don’t like me!) ๐Ÿ˜•

      I am not claiming that Mazak caused this man’s death. He didn’t have a long time on this earth anyway. However, if Mazak could say that to a person who clearly HAD a medical issue, there is no hope for anyone else.

      1. This is horrifying. The hubris exhibited by these “men” knows no bounds. And they’re touted as godly teachers, with hundreds of Christians taking their word on *any* subject as gospel.

        When I think about the depraved state of humanity that the Bible talks about, this kind of crap is what comes to mind. This is nauseating, especially because I know I am not immune to this kind of blind hero-worship. It’s human nature to condemn absolutely anyone in our mad scramble to be right in our own eyes, but when people use religion to accomplish their self-exalting crusade…I have no words to express how sick a state humanity is in.

  15. If Mazak is indeed at all involved with this, then we can expect complete disaster. The man is a lunatic who knows absolutely nothing about compassion, empathy, emotional trauma, or basic humanity. Teaching that every psychological disorder or problem is in fact a spiritual problem is exactly the kind of teaching that could cause severe depression, anxiety, and even suicide.

    1. Mazak is the most dangerous. He understands nothing of real medicine, science, nor psychology, but he pretends that he does. Worst of all people take what he says as if it is informed by all of the above. His teachings are perhaps the most dangerous.

  16. First words that crossed my mind were “Physician, heal thyself.” They have no credibility in terms of telling people how to deal with sexual addictions and sexual sins. They have categorically failed to obey the Bible in dealing with such issues in their own house. And their ministers have been indicted in cover up s of sexual predators in Fundamentalist churches.

      1. Alex – please take Bassenco’s advice. Just by Googling your name I came up with lots of personal information about you and possibly even your father. Someone with a serious axe to grind, like BJU, would be more thorough.

        While I’m sure we’d love to get an insider’s perspective on this, I would be more concerned about your well-being. Please take care.

        1. And, for the record, I’m not trying to stalk you. Bassenco’s comment raised my curiosity as to how much of a problem this might be. IRL, I’ve got a VERY common name, and have some comfort in its anonymity. Even so, I still use an alias. You, however, are not as fortunate.

      1. Wouldn’t it already be too late though? I mean, here he is. Right here. Where all can see. Even if Darrell deleted those two comments, wouldn’t it be in his computer, and don’t they check those?

  17. As someone with a mental disorder (OCD), just the THOUGHT of this terrifies me. Fundamentalism made my compulsions and depression spiral out of control because of all the stress and nitpicking and extra rules. I was never suicidal until I went to BJU. It made everything worse!

    I never saw any real improvement in my disorder until I abandoned the IFB mindset. If you have OCD and you’re a fundy, my first advice is to leave fundamentalism.

    1. I was a worse person when I was a fundy and couldn’t tell anyone about my struggles with “sinful” behavior. I couldn’t grow up, because other people were telling me what to do. It wasn’t until I was out of that fundy bondage that I was able to finally be honest, and in turn, a better person with no secrets to hide. In a nutshell, I saw a lot more sin in fundamentalism than in the public sector.

      1. That’s why I believe this as a true statement, that “there are ‘good people’ in the world, and unfortunately, ‘evil people’ in the church.”..in these kinds of awful churches. God have mercy on them! Lord save us all from the fundies! And heal all those who are still damaged. You are the Good Shepherd, and the Good shepherd cares for His sheep! โ—

    2. Amen to this, HazelEyed, and good for you for getting out! I saw so many signs of mental disorders and depression when I was at HAC, and terrible things happened and were simply covered up. When I went through a terrible emotional trauma in my own life, I would have been sunk without my psychologist, and I know for sure that I was led to him by a loving God. It is arrogant to think we never need the help of a trained professional; but then, BJU specializes in arrogance.

  18. I don’t even understand how therapy can be biblical. People who cut and burn are typically (but not always) suffering from borderline personality disorder and I wouldn’t want anyone but a well-trained specialist dealing with that! The shame component alone would be seriously triggered.

  19. This strikes a nerve with me. The idiots don’t realize that their legalistic version of Christianity is what drives many of their people to depression, hopelessness, addictions, and even suicide. โžก They destroy hope. They tell the sufferer that they are the source of their problems and (ultimately) the source of their healing. Which sounds really great, the first couple of months/years you try to get better. After a while, however, you’re so exhausted you can’t try anymore and so hopeless you don’t see the point of trying.

    This type of guilt- and shame-inducing “counseling” drove me to severe clinical depression, a fact I realized while in counseling with a licensed professional psychologist. I have no words strong enough to express my hatred for this abominable poison they spew. There is no hope in the counsel that they give. Not a trace of grace. And no love whatsoever. Yeah, that’s “Biblical counseling” for you.

    1. I hate to tell you this, since you seem to be a very nice young man. But when I click on your picture, your name comes up again. And your pic is there for everyone to see. And a boatload of information on you that you wrote yourself. If anyone from your university is spying here (and they are) you will be in huge trouble for being on a site like this. Please be careful. ๐Ÿ™

  20. I will totally do it anonymously. Also, I’d say whatever I thought to their face, and I would be as absolutely kind as possible. So yeah. ๐Ÿ™‚ I’ll do it if you want! I can even email it to Darrell and have him post it without a name. Also, you found my dad, not me, on Google. ๐Ÿ˜€

    1. RUBJUS, We would love to have a report of what is said inside, just the facts, with context. If you can record for a more accurate transcript, all the better. Please do be careful you don’t run afoul of the administration, though. I hear they are just big ol’ meanies.

    2. Bravo! (Although your Gravatar is still showing.) Admitting that I found your dad still puts you in a precarious position, though.

      Good luck with the undercover work, and I would be curious to hear your report.

  21. Found on my FB newsfeed just now…

    “Doing psychology homework, amazing how people are so confused yet are thought to be amazing thinkers. Do I really have to read that rediculous book? I used the Bible to contradict the psychology book and received full credit on my paper.”

  22. Give em some credit. At least they aren’t going for safe church people. This is deep stuff and Christ commanded all of us to reach those in deep need. Who knows they may even cast out some devils before it is all over.. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    1. I agree that it LOOKS as if they are going after those in “deep need.” But unless qualified therapists are handling this, they will do more danger before this is over. Darrell is right to be terrified. God help and preserve those who are taken in enough to attend! ๐Ÿ˜•

      1. I have a ‘gut feeling’ that they have an unconscious sick emotional ‘need’ to lure people into their weird seminar, in order to feed on their pain and emotions. Having people come to them gullibly trusting, people whom they consider ‘weak, wounded vulnerable’, and probably already ‘look down on ( when have any of these goons respected anyone outside of their clique?11) can cause these goons to fall ito the temptation of ‘getting on aterribly dangerous and destructive power trip.’ And when ‘hasn’t’ being on a power trip ‘not’ been the root sin of every serious problem, of everything that has ever gone wrong with their outrgeous abusive treatment of people in that gulag! There’s so much mental/ emotional / spiritual ‘self-deception’ going on, in the lives of these BJU KNOW IT ALLS WANTING TO ‘PLAY DOCTOR’ AND ‘MESS’ WITH WOUNDED PEOPLE’S MINDS. IT’S SCARY TOO. BUT I HAVE A HUNCH THAT THERE’S SOME REALLY SICK NEED TO ‘FEED’ ON THE EMOTIONS OF SUFFERING PEOPLE, AND SOME HOW GET A SICK ‘SPIRITUAL AND EMOTIONAL HIGH’ FROM DOING THAT.sorry for the caps. Amateur back yard anti-intellectual ‘non ministry’ of ignoramuses is bad enough, but when this is done in the name of religion, I tell you, I could not warn people to run away from this kind of garbage fast enough. Follow the arrow for a fast escape! โžก

  23. Is this supposed to be a fundy/Bojo answer to “Celebrate Recovery”? As if that’s not fundy/churcy enough, we need to train fundy churches to have even fundy-er addiction recovery programs? I’m guessing all 12 steps revolve around obeying the MOG instead of any of the normal steps?

    1. Do whatever they say or go away! Major cults usually want your pocket book forst, then they wnt your mind! fundy control freaks first want your mind, then they know you will throw in your pocket book for free. give them your mind, then give them your money. we are all feeling so fine. Aren’t we honey! If we ‘are’ so fine, then where’s all the misery coming from. happy clappy fundy christiaity? I don’t think so! Look at how hard I am trying to look happy! And people’s hearts are breaking inside.:grin:

  24. Some comments on the agenda and for the sake of brevity I’m gonna only copypaste the session name, author and the particular points I take issue with:

    “A Theology of Addiction โ€” Greg Mazak

    Why must we reject AAโ€™s twelve steps?”

    What is wrong with the 12 steps from a christian perspective??? Isn’t it all about God and using prayer to get over it?

    “Is change through the sanctification process adequate for helping men and women addicted to drugs (including alcohol and tobacco) and to destructive behaviors?”

    Not if they need to detox! You can KILL someone if you have them suddenly quit certain substances. While I can see why tobacco would be labeled a drug, treating it as a hardcore addiction is really going too far.

    “Addiction Proofing Your Children โ€” Dan Olinger”

    Cuz DARE programs and the like happened oh so well…

    “Addressing Obsessive-Compulsive Behaviors (cutting, gambling, eating disorders, etc.) โ€” Jim Berg”

    None of the examples are OCD!!!

    “Preparing Your Congregation โ€” Rusty Smith

    The challenges presented to the church by broken families and unstable individuals can be overwhelming if the church is not prepared and willing to minister to those โ€œnot like us.โ€ ”

    Are they trying to say that NO ONE currently in the church has any mental health or addiction issues???

    “Addiction Proofing Your Own Soul โ€” Mark Minnick

    No one is immune from the life-dominating effect of habitual sin, especially when we live in a culture that promotes the love of pleasure.”

    What they are really trying to say: If you follow all our steps for you and your family, we can guarantee that NO ONE in your family will suffer the perils of mental illness or addiction.

    1. Wait, “Jim Berg” is in this? That’s the condescending sadist behind the “Made Into His Image” course which I mentioned before. His theology is really inhuman.

  25. I went to a gender differences conference a couple years ago (Leonard Sax) and learned that the whole “this is your brain on drugs” campaign completely backfired. Why? Because the scarier you make something look, the more boys are going to want to try it. Not the same for girls. Their reasons for experimenting with substances are different. Fundies make a lot of things look scary, don’t they?

  26. reminds of when I am driving and I see a bumper sticker that says the answer is Jesus. Brought to you by the same cookie group that brought you “pray the gay away”, “addiction just stop it”, and “bipolar is demon possesion” Just like in gone with the wind when prissy tells scarlet to put a knife under the bed to cut pain when melanie is having her baby. Could it be that the miracle is that these medical professional have the training and knowledge to help work through these problems instead of the old snake oil. ๐Ÿ˜ˆ

  27. Sat through a couple sunday school lessons on “Victory over the Darkness” by Neil Anderson. Pastor/book seemed to be saying how psychology was a bunch of crap, and things like OCD (which I battle) is actually a demonic stronghold. People being deceived by medication. Nice.
    I have battled this since the age of about 7. Never really knew what it was until I was in teacher ed in college..and then that was a limited understanding.
    Taught HS psychology and put it all together. Lived with it for 14 years before seeking help. Mine started in childhood, went away, spiked in high school, went away, and came back with a vengeance at about age 32 or 33.

    The only connection OCD has to anything spiritual is that it seemed to get worse when guilt and harsh religious teachings were heaped on.

    I got some help. I was on medication for about 18 months, long enough to be able to read some self help books and do some self guided therapy. My wonderfully generous insurance company with their high deductible made professional counselling out of reach.

    I DID get better. It had nothing to do with demonic strongholds. By the grace of God, I am off medicine. I know what this is and am managing it well based on what I know. You can’t “pray it away.”

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