Ignoring MLK

Growing up in fundyland I never really knew who Martin Luther King Jr. was. We didn’t skip school or do anything special on the holiday commemorating his life. His name wasn’t mentioned from the pulpit nor was his biography on any reading list. As far as we knew, who he was and what he accomplished just wasn’t that important.

I suppose it’s not all that surprising given the Bob Jones university reportedly refused to fly their flag at half mast when Dr. King was assassinated. If the words “civil rights” are ever mentioned in the hallowed halls of Fundy U it’s inevitably with suspicion and more than a little disdain. Troublemaker. Apostate. Leftist.

I only wish we had a few more troublemakers like him. Happy birthday, sir. Rest in peace until the day of your resurrection.

291 thoughts on “Ignoring MLK”

  1. My pastor says the Mr. King was a Communist who was bent on tearing down America. I guess it just goes to show that a person can talk about freedom and liberty all day long and still be a secret communist.

    1. That’s what I grew up hearing too. It’s crazy. My dad still gets upset when he’s even mentioned. I had this entire mindset of vilifying Dr. King, without really knowing exactly what he actually did. I’ve since had to “re-educate” myself on him, and a lot of other things.

  2. Growing up in the far right wing of fundyism, I just believed that we ignored the man and holiday because he was ” bad”. Pretty much anything that the rest of the world did but we ignored I assumed to be ” bad”. Stuff Ex-Fundies Like: discovering things the rest of the world has known for years.

  3. CMG, your comment reminds me of a line from the Crucible when Elizabeth Proctor asks the witch expert Reverend Hale about how it is he thinks that a woman might do nothing but good and still be a secret witch. That denial of any good in our “enemies” is so dehumanizing.

    I’m looking forward to teaching King’s Letter from a Birmingham Jail and Thoreau’s Civil Disobedience again — I learn so much every time.

      1. “Letter from a Birmingham Jail” is one of the great documents of American History. If you haven’t read it, stop whatever you’re doing and read it right now.
        In it, King outlines the principles of nonviolent civil disobedience as a strategy for change and as a way of life. It’s his statement of the principles of Gandhian nonviolence as he saw their application in the United States. To put it another way, it explains what he sees as being the duty of Christians in the 20th century.
        I also urge those who don’t know it to read King’s “Declaration of Independence from the War in Vietnam.”

        1. I took your advice last night. I read it aloud to my husband without stopping, and when I finished, we started wondering how many other things they lied to us about. We’ve rejected the IFB culture for years now, but we are still unlearning so many things we were taught. Sigh. What a paragon of a man. No wonder they villified him: he exposed them!

        2. I’m willing to guess it was MLK’s opposition to Vietnam that sparked much of the accusations of being a Communist/Communist sympathizer (and probably was the fuel that got many of the fundy elites furious…at least the part that wasn’t fueled by pure, unadulterated racism).

      2. I read “Letter From Birmingham Jail” on the floor of my closet, tears streaming down my face. I.had.no.idea. The reason I was reading it was because child #5 was in public school and was required to annotate it.

        Oh my goodness. If that didn’t seal the “deal,” then nothing will.I supposedly have a liberal arts bachelors degree from Fundy U, but I had never been exposed to any of MLKJr.’s writings. This was such an eye opener to me.

        Please read it if you haven’t. There’s something big out there that “they” don’t want us to know about!

        1. King was not only a political leader of huge importance; he was also one of the great orators and writers of American history. There are a lot of recordings of his speeches around, and they are well worth listening to. They are also available in written form, but hearing him speak is a tremendous experience.

        2. Yeah, it is a real eye-opener to read his words and listen to his speeches. Talk about a great orator. The man had a command of words, and could just run circles around so many. It’s just such a shame that none of that was accessible in Fundy schools. I don’t recall ever reading or hearing anything of Dr. King’s, other than mentioning him in passing.

  4. My first thought at this title was “Yeah, but so many people give it just passing acknowledgement anyway” since I’ve never in my life had a job that recognized MLK Day (even worked for 5 years for a company that serviced banks, and still didn’t get it off). Then realized Fundies even go so far as to not have their schools & colleges take the day off. The only educators I know of in the country that refuse to acknowledge, and continue as CMG pointed out to attack & attempt to undermine him.

    I still love the lyrics from a Public Enemy song (yes it uses violent metaphors which I don’t like). Anyway, MLK was a “black man that taught white men what the meaning of civilization is”.

    1. “A black man that taught white men what the meaning of civilization is”

      Certainly I am very happy to celebrate along with everyone the great accomplishments of Dr King, and they are many, but when I start seeing these types of silly, heroic, undeserved history re-writes I just can’t shut up. Dr King along with John F. Kennedy and Bill Clinton had a very similar problem, they had the morals of alley cats. So if you don’t mind, from where I sit I’ll recognize the good but I won’t, for a minute, imagine that they were good role models for families, because of how they hurt their wives and children with their barely hidden trysts.

      So thanks but no thanks, Dr King can’t teach me much about “being civil” as it relates to home and family life.

      Btw, isn’t this statement racist and prejudiced? I wouldn’t think that a broad-minded liberal person such as yourself would use such language!

      1. “So thanks but no thanks, Dr King can’t teach me much about “being civil” as it relates to home and family life.”

        The lyrics of the song referenced did not mean “civil” as in how to raise a family. It was more related on how not to hang someone from a tree because of their skin color.

      2. Did Martin Luther King, Jr. live a perfect life? No.
        Did Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, or any of the saints? No.
        Was King a great man? Yes.
        Were the others great? Yes.
        Life isn’t as cut and dried as we would like it to be.

        1. Things I don’t recall MLK doing: Killing Bathsheba’s husband.

          Martyring Christians

          Publicly denying Christ

          Am sure there’s a long long list of these.

        2. RobM – Can you spell hypocrisy?

          Hasn’t stopped you from railing against Hyles, Schapp, Rice, Comfort, Grey, Beck, Oreilly, Bush,and Palin.

          Oh the liberal mindset, not only do you think you are smarter than anyone else, you somehow or other always believe you are right and superior.

        3. “Oh the liberal mindset, not only do you think you are smarter than anyone else, you somehow or other always believe you are right and superior.”

          Rob? Are we talking about RobM?

          I’ve only been on here since before Thanksgiving, but Rob has never come across on here or in the forum as attempting to be smarter or superior.

          And, come on, Greg, I think we all think we’re right in our beliefs. That goes for you, too.

        4. Natalie – You have admitted in the past, or at least I seem to recall, that you are a liberal, so can you see and understand that as I observe the dialogue I see it somewhat differently than you do? You see, you probably mostly agree with RobM and others of the liberal persuasion, but I often don’t.

          You are also correct that we all highly value our opinions.

          Sooooo….My opiniion is that RobM’s “entertaining commentary on personal failings” comment is the height of hypocrisy given his regular drubbing of any and all things considered fundy or conservative.

        5. Greg, I wasn’t commenting on the fact that I agreed with Rob or not. To be honest, I was pretty much neutral on the discussion above. So, the fact that I’m liberal has really nothing to do with it.

          Whether Rob is a liberal or no, I was rebutting your comment that he was acting smarter or superior than anyone else. I don’t believe that he was.

          Our political positions had nothing to do with my comment.

        6. Natalie – I’ll give it one last shot. My opinion is that you are not recognizing RobM’s supposed superior attitude because you think similarly to him. (my opinion) I respect your opinion and I hope you respect mine.

          Does anyone else on SFL go through this type of nit-picking that I do? I see that Naomi (below) is trying to disqualify Rose’s and PW’s experience, but that is alittle different than what folks do to me, however I would be equally ticked off if I related a personal experience, as have PW and Rose and then someone (Naomi) tell them A) it didn’t happen or B)they misunderstood. And for the record this type of thing goes on all the time, and its part to the reason why many are not accepting of civil rights leadership today and gives ammunition to small-minded bigots.

        7. Greg, true, I do think like Rob, but not just because he’s a liberal, but just because he’s … well, Rob. 😉

          I do respect your opinion, though, and thank you for respecting mine.

        8. @greg – I don’t think liberal/conservative is the problem. It seems like every time I check this blog lately, you’re fighting/disagreeing with someone. It’s a little funny how you’re always in the middle of it. But hey, it keeps things interesting so by all means, continue! 🙂

        9. Melissa – I’m a lone conservative voice in a vast sea of liberalism. I do enjoy the dialogue at times.

          Just keepin it real. Tks

        10. Melissa – Almost forgot, many of the folks that comment here get their news at the Jon Stewart comedy show, seriously. So I’ve got my work cut out for me.

        11. Tonyt, where do you get the idea that “God commands us to have only one wife”?
          Not from the Bible. Nearly all of the Biblical Patriarchs seem to have had multiple wives (look at all the geneologies in the Bible). The condemnation of David was not for having numerous wives (which he did), but for killing another man so he could steal that man’s wife. The New Testament has no prohibition on polygamy, although Paul does say that a bishop should be “the husband of only one wife.”

          Even incest (by our standards) seems to have been tolerated, or possibly approved of in some cases, in Old Testament times (especially in Genesis).

          Adultery, of course, is another matter. The Bible is pretty solidly against adultery, although there are lots of accounts of leaders who ignored this prohibition.

        12. @greg:
          I don’t know why you feel so threatened by the presence of liberals on this blog. There actually are a fair number of conservatives here, but the reason they aren’t called out is because they are respectful of others’ viewpoints and don’t use inflammatory rhetoric if they disagree.
          Also, I don’t know why you resort to using “liberal” and “feminist” as insults, when for many people they are not a bad thing. Remember, in his time, Jesus was a liberal who challenged the traditional way of Jewish thinking. If it weren’t for liberals, America would still have slaves and segregation. If not for feminism, women would not be able to vote, and many would be forced to live their lives as housewives, rather than able to follow their dreams.
          I think instead of playing the martyr whose role is a conservative “voice crying out” among the “evil” liberals, maybe you should try to understand why people have their convictions, and not get defensive and just dismiss them according to your pet insults.
          Not being rude or “nasty” this time, just calling it as I see it. I used to be a lot like you. My opinion, take it or leave it.

        13. Melody – A very nice reasonable comment, quite refreshing from most of what I face on here.

          First off I’m not threatened by liberals or anyone else for that matter. I perceive things differently than many others that comment here, and I’m not shy about sharing those differences.

          Not exactly sure about your comments regarding liberal and feminists not being an insult, ok I agree with you, then what’s the problem?

          Next is where we begin to differ. The old argument about Jesus being a liberal has been around, judging from your gravatar picture, since before you were born. I don’t really buy it. Our Lord was God in the flesh, He was many things but I don’t look at Him as being conservative or liberal. In my way of thinking He is beyond these simple terms.

          Now I don’t buy at all the premise that slavery was stopped by liberals or that “only” feminists won the right to vote for women, thats much too simplistic, and in fact, I would consider that to be a history re-write, but obviously don’t have space here to flesh out my belief. I can say that I am not reviled or worried that you believe that, that’s fine by me.

          I generally don’t initiate these confrontations, I am usually responding, and I usually respond with that same type of vitriol that was heaved at me. What I find funny is that others can be just as inflammatory but seldom get called on it.

          You called me out civilly, I responded civilly (I think) so everything is good and happy here on SFL.

        1. “Like”
          And I’ll point out the Bible says King David WAS a man after God’s own heart. That implies he stopped being so at some point. I’m not being dogmatic about it, just food for thought.
          And you know when David repented and so on about murdering Uriah… apparently he wasn’t so repentant as to stop seeing Bathsehba.

        2. 💡 Actually, the reason King David *was* a man after God’s own heart is because at the present time, he is dead.

        3. Really? You know that for sure? I guess my version doesn’t have the verse that says that. Mine just says he was, at some point.
          Sarcasm aside, I think either is possible. But since God commands us to have only one wife, and anything outside of that is adultery, and since David had a LOT of wives, thus committing a lot of adultery for a long time (read: openly living in sin), I have a hard time accepting David as a great and righteous man. I think he was, at one point, a righteous man (as righteous as a man can be, anyway), but he openly lived in sin. And, again, I’ve heard quite a bit of hay made over his repentance over his murder, but that apparently wasn’t enough to get him to stop having sex with the wife of the man he murdered. Or all those other women.
          Don’t get me wrong-I’m not throwing him under the bus. He was a sinful and broken man like our other heroes. But it’s hypocritical to condemn someone because he can’t keep his pecker in his pocket, but overlook that fact when it comes to someone “on their side.”

      3. @greg: None of the people that God has used have been sinless. Lot, for instance, failed morally in a number of ways. Yet, he is called “righteous Lot” in 2 Peter 2:7

        Gideon was as timid as they come. Barak refused to do what God called him to do unless Deborah went along with him. If you want morally bankrupt, try Samson. Yet, the Holy Spirit placed them smack dab in the Hebrews Hall of Faith, chapter eleven.

        If we knew everything about all of the men and women that God has used mightily, areas of weakness. Nowhere are they painted as plaster saints. All were subject to temptation, and all of them failed at one time or another. God used them anyway because they were willing and available to be used.

        It’s easy to point a finger at the moral failures of others. Sometimes, though, it’s harder to remember that we are all works in progress. Dr. King is a great man because he was willing, and available to challenge the evil of racism. He made a difference.

        1. If we knew everything about all of the men and women that God has used mightily, we would find areas of weakness in every one.

          Doggone it, george!

        1. And I understand the policy. And the problem is just that I forgot the one time. And I’ve already taken care of it so it’s not even really a problem anymore.

  5. PS I had a prof @ FundyU (dunno if he’s still there, so don’t wanna identify more than that) who was the first teacher on any level that ever implied or acknowledged there may still be race & inequality problems even since the Civil Rights Act of 1964. I think most of my profs there looked on the CRA with as much disdain & suspicion as Rand Paul.

  6. The day MLK was murdered the audience in the Chapel at Bob Jones University burst out in applause at the news. This came from my brother who was there.

    All because citizens of the United States wanted equal treatment under the law. I still don’t get it.

        1. Ditto. It happened in several Arab countries. There were no such demonstrations in the US. Muslims here mourned just like everyone else in the US.

        2. Muslims may have danced somewhere in the world, but not here. American Muslims were at least as shocked, traumatized, and terrified as other Americans. At least, all the ones I know of were, and I was actually in contact with quite a few Muslims in 2001 and the following years.

        3. Actually have to agree with greg on this one. I remember seeing the news reports on CNN and MSNBC where Muslim soldiers were driving tanks down the road and throwing candy to children. And then there was the entire Columbia explosion being “God’s vengeance” on the US for the Iraqi war, which I read on AOL.com

        4. Rose the reports you mention were far more the exception than the rule, and were NOT from within the United States. There were 0 reports of US Muslims celebrating, because there were 0 US Muslims celebrating in the streets. Obv there are lunatics is Islam like there are in every religion & group in the US, but the idea that the Muslims that were celebrating in the streets were Americans or in the US is not true.

      1. I’d like to know that too, but I just kind of doubt there is audio of a BJU chapel in 1968, and if there were I don’t think BoJo would still have that available to anyone if it were true.

        1. I’m sorry there is no ‘hard’ documentation. Just word of mouth.

          Interestingly enough I saw an interview of a guy on TV who went to BJ and he mentioned this. For the life of me I can’t remember who that guy was or what the interview was about. It was 20/20 or one of those news magazine shows.

          So if you wish to take that with a grain of salt feel free to do so.

    1. I read an account of a student who was there that day in chapel. My understanding was the applause took place after Jr. said they would not lower the flag to half mast, not after they announced King’s death.

  7. We were also taught that he was a trouble making communist. I have never heard any of his August 28, 1963 speech except for the “I have a dream” part. Until now. Thanks for posting it.

    1. Yes, and they made a bit to do about his straying from his marital vows. Nevertheless, he was a great man, and if you are going to gripe about things like that you probably should pull the book of Judges out of the Bible.

  8. I also grew up in the “MLK was a Commie” school of thought. I remember listening to family members happily reminisce with other BoJos who were on campus the day Dr. King was killed when Dr. Bob Jr. got up in chapel and stated (rather joyously) that a tyrant was dead. I always thought there was something wrong these people…and I began on my own to research Dr. King’s life and what he accomplished for this country. The Dr’s Bob always made a big deal about “character”, but IMO Dr. King lived it. His line about judging people not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character says it all.

    1. “When men call you a mob who tar and feather men and call you traitors to this country, I resent it. They slander a big percent of the best preachers and the best Protestant laymen in this country. Many of these men are my personal friends.”

      Bob Jones Sr. in a prepared statement to the K.K.K. at a special “Ku Klux Klan Night” during one of his evangelistic campaigns.

    2. Former Fundy – This was always one of my favorite Dr King’s saying as well, about judging folks on the content of their character as opposed to the color of their skin. I wish to God that folks who purport to be following Dr King today could remember this, instead we have people in the name of civil rights trying to do precisely the opposite, that is, attempting to give special rights to folks *because* of their skin color. I don’t believe Dr King would have supported this.

      I would love to see what Dr King would have to say to an Al Sharpton, or a Louis Farakhan today!

      1. “special rights”?

        No such thing. It appears you’d like to live in a world that ignores *why* MLK had to work so hard to get white people to stop denying Black people’s rights. Our society was, and remains, profoundly unequal. Acknowledging the inequality, and working to reverse it, is a necessary part of repenting of slavery and racism.

        1. “Our society was, and remains, profoundly unequal”

          Truer words have never been spoken. I would absolutely love to see what Dr King would have to say to the NAACP.

        2. So, greg, you’re upset because a little bit of your white privilege is challenged? How freakin’ moronic! Get off your high horse and do some ministry in the bad neighborhoods. It’ll change your life.

        3. Greg, MLK was *more radical* than the NAACP. 🙄

          I’m glad we have MLK day, so we can remember (and in some cases learn) history. Ditto to Dan. You’d think pointing out someone’s privilege is life-threatening, the way people sometimes react.

        4. Dan Keller – You should get a clue, you have no idea who you are talking to and what kind of ministries I am involved in, I won’t enumerate them because that always looks like you’re blowing your own horn.

          White priviledge? Did you just dream that up or did you read it in Al Sharpton’s civil rights manifesto? I managed to succeed in the military and in civil government when the deck was highly stacked against me in both of those areas.

          I owe no man nothing but to love him and that is what I am attempting to do in this life.

          I am utterly convinced from having listened to and studied Dr King that he would not support much of what passes as civil rights today, from what I gather he wanted an “equal” chance for folks of all colors and in many instances that “equalness” was passed long ago.

          I think Dr King would join folks like Bill Cosby and others in making “their” people responsible for “their” actions.

        5. @greg-

          Out of curiosity, did your studies include the fact that King was for reparations for slavery, called for “radical redistribution of economic power” and advocated a much stronger role for government in supporting the poor?

          The NAACP has to be much more careful than King was. King skirted right up the the line of advocating socialism – and probably crossed that line in private.

        6. VorJack – You are exactly right. Note that I did not say I supported everything Dr King stood for, and yet I can applaud all of the wonderful things he did accomplish in his “too” short life.

          I’m actually glad you brought up some of his more “radical” ideas, I’m sure many of these folks that comment here and get their news from Jon Stewart had no idea about some of these things Dr King supported, it was because of these “radical” ideas that many people of faith could not in good conscience support him and why in many circles he was vilified. I had thought about bringing up these issues but its hard to say what the liberals would have done to me here. But let it be said you are the one that broke out this can of worms.

        7. Actually, I was the one who first stated that MLK was more radical than the NAACP. Funny that it took someone with a male name for it to be heard… 😉 I’m sure it’s pretty well-known to anyone who studied his life. 🙄

        8. I’m confused as to how MLK would totally reprimand the NAACP today, yet was so radical Christians couldn’t support him. ❓

        9. Naomi – Man your life must be miserable, do you see everthing through your little feminist glasses?

          Please class does anyone here believe that no one was paying attention to “lil” Naomi because she’s a female. Pathetic!

        10. Not miserable at all. I was mostly poking fun in a good-natured way, which I tried to show with the wink smiley. However, your answer doesn’t show a lot of respect for women. meh. btdt. Hey, you’re not trying to draw attention away from the contradiction inherent in your previous statements about King being conservative like Cosby yet too politically radical for Christians, are you? OK, OK, I’ll quit. 😉

        11. King’s “radical” views on some things are well known to anyone who has read a decent biography of him, or listened to some of his speeches (especially the later ones, after about 1965). But I suspect the reason some Christians are uncomfortable with MLK has more to do with the fact that the Christianity he espoused was also quite radical (in the Latin sense of “radical,” meaning true to the original roots).

        12. @Greg…Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

          Oh and just for the books..I swear I thought the title was ignoring MILK. Sometimes I need to ignore milk..does bad things for my digestive system. :mrgreen:

        13. Rob’s got two chicks defending him.

          We just need one more, and we’ll change his name to Charlie. 😉

        14. greg – I’ve always found it funny how people in Fundyland always tout their humanity when someone points out their failings, but, when it comes to people like MLK, they bring up some affair, as if he’s supposed to be perfect. Hear this, and hear it well, back in the 50’s and 60’s, “separation” meant “segregation.” I grew up in a racist Southern home, but I saw my parents change. So, how do you justify slavery? What do you say?

        15. Dan Keller – This whole dialogue was started by my commenting on the stupid and foolish lyrics by the braindead band “Public Enemy” (apt name) that RobM quoted. I took great exception to the lyric and still do.

          So now I’m sitting here trying to figure out why you are asking me about justifying slavery. Did I miss something.

          You didn’t attend the same school as Naomi did you?

          Well, Gotta go now and check out the news on the Jon Stewart show.

        16. It’s more than a little preposterous for you to always be smack dab in the middle of it constantly and say it’s always everyone else’s fault.

  9. Thank you Darrell. This is something that Fundy Schools and churches need to acknowledge.

    “By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” -Jesus

    1. “love one another.” –

      For me, this has been the starkest difference between the fundy church we just left and the churches we have been visiting since. I am struck by the love and absence of judgment that the ~gasp~ Presbyterian church has for the entire community. The Presbyterian church is an integral part of our little town, extending a helping hand and traditionally being involved in community fairs, parades etc. The church kids attend public school and it is not unusual to see the pastors at sporting events, plays and band concerts. Fundies have no problem loving (or putting on a good show of it) one another. Anyone outside the fundy church walls was looking down upon, Christian or not. It has been so refreshing to me to be able to be part of the community that I live in. I always felt two-faced in fundyland. It was the “church fundy me” and then there was just plain me.

      1. Our church has formally repented of being isolated from our community. We are now actively seeking ways to participate in community events. We’d already been part of the parade for a couple years, but we just helped out at a career day (learning about budgets) at the public high school and getting involved in a town “think tank” that seeks to help the needy.

        Of course, when I say our church, I mean those of us left after 75% left when we said we wanted to be missional and reach out to our community and show them the love of Christ.

        1. Thank you, K! Sometimes it’s exciting to be finally reaching out. Other times it’s scary because we’re totally rethinking a lot of the fundy assumptions we grew up with. (And it doesn’t help that our families all despise us now!)

        2. Good for the other 25% of your congregation! Keep being involved in your community, and other good people will find you.

        3. I agree with K. Keep fighting the good fight. I especially enjoy reading your posts and have a great deal of respect for what you and your husband are trying to do. I do and will continue to pray for you.

  10. I heard–in “church”–that “Martin Luther COON” was a communist. I had to ask my parents why they would call him a raccoon.

    While on the civil rights topic, I was also told–in “church”–that Malcolm X wanted to kill all the white people.

    1. Ugh, it just disgusts me. We had a deacon in our church who said “I love coons! I think everybody ought to own 2 or 3.” 👿

      I brought my boyfriend and eventual husband who was from a largely black community and who had pretty much all black friends to church camp with me and he had to listen to that deacon’s son and many others make racist jokes all week. He had asked them to stop, but of course they just told even more-because that’s how we treat a visitor! It was so upsetting to him that one day he had enough and yelled “Hey! The family that adopted me is black!” and everyone got dead silent and just looked at him much like this 😯 and he said “Not really, but you need to stop telling those jokes.”

  11. At first glance, it seems odd to me that fanatical Baptists would ignore the man who was probably the most influential Baptist minister in U.S. history. I guess that’s part of their whole “separation” deal.

    I, too, wish we had more troublemakers like Martin Luther King, Jr. We could use him now.

  12. My parents were John Birchers. They had an obviously doctored picture of MLK, with Castro, Che, and some other commie pinkos sitting around a table in some sort of conspiracy to dominate the world. My mother did not appreciate it when I showed how the picture was doctored.

    1. I’ve always suspected my parents were Birchers at one point. They’ve never been in my life, but the once or twice the subject came up, they seemed sympathetic. I didn’t believe people who told me the crazieness that was the John Birch Society for a few years. Kinda embarrassing to admit that now.

      1. My parents had meetings at our house. They stockpiled supplies for the “upcoming famine” a la Joseph in Egypt. Funny, BJU advertised in “The American Opinion” magazine, a JBS “magazine.”

  13. Martin Luther King, Jr. was pretty much ignored when I was growing up. I heard a little bit about his adultery and his communist leanings so I got the vague idea that he was “bad.” Then as I got older and started reading about his dedication to non-violence and to equality, I thought, “What’s so bad about that?” I now have several children’s picture books to share with my children about who he was. Whatever flaws he had (as we all do), what he believed was RIGHT and BIBLICAL, no matter what they tried to tell me as I grew up.

  14. i started listening to a lot of sermons by john piper in my 2nd year at BJU. he used to (and probably still does) preach a message or two on race/racism right around MLK day each year. those sermons were very influential to me – i remember hearing him talk about growing up in Greenville, SC and how BJU was supposedly pumping out all this great Bible truth, but had this ugly interior of racial hatred backed up by supposedly unchanging biblical truth. by the 70’s, BJU and much of the IFB denomination was WAY behind even “non-Christian” society, which is terrible given their supposed adherence to the Bible.

    Christians/fundamentalists claim to live their lives by the Bible alone, and i know how humans are fallible and yadda yadda yadda, but i think it’s despicable how many of them just reflect(ed) the norms of society, not the Bible. racism should NEVER have happened in the church, and it shouldn’t happen now, but can testify from first-hand experience that it’s still around.

    i heard lots of “n***** jokes” from the mouths of deacons, sunday school teachers, and other church “leaders” at my old IFB church in south carolina (i started going there in 2002 and left in 2007). and i remember being at BJU in 2003 having lunch with two guys who are on the Faculty of Religion now, who BOTH argued that the Bible is crystal clear that interracial marriage/dating is sinful.

    great post, darrell!

    1. “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth.” “In Christ there is no Jew nor Greek, no slave nor free.” “Be not conformed to this world.” How can people read the Bible and still have hatred toward people of a different race?

      Excellent point, Mike: “I think it’s despicable how many of them just reflect(ed) the norms of society, not the Bible. racism should NEVER have happened in the church, and it shouldn’t happen now.” The church was to be DIFFERENT from the world, and one of the primary ways was LOVE (“They will know we are Christians by our love.”)

      I wish I’d spoken up when I heard rude jokes and unChristian comments spoken by “good church folk.” It is the height of hypocrisy to speak of God’s love out of one side of your mouth and make rude jokes and demeaning comments about people out of the other.

  15. I think that most of the Civil Rights movement was omitted from my ACE curriculum. I remember hearing from the pulpit that MLK was a pretty bad person. In reality, his morals were certainly no worse than many fundamental pastors and one of the few organizations that reached out to support the Civil Rights movement was the Communist Party of America. I wonder how often the local Baptist pastor doubled as the Grand Dragon of his community as well?

  16. Not long ago, I read this quote by Kevin Bauder: “To demonize these leaders [speaking of John R. Rice, Roloff, and Bob Jones Jr.], however, would not be just. They were sinners saved by grace, and God’s grace was surely sustaining and transforming them throughout their… lives. Although we are aware of their flawed humanity, we should also remind ourselves that they loved God, they loved the gospel, they loved souls, and they loved ministry. There is room to respect them even if we disagree with some of what they did. And if we are willing to criticize their flaws, then we should also remind ourselves of their virtues.”

    So why can we not have the same view toward Martin Luther King, Jr.? Why can’t we remind ourselves of his virtues? Why was he always demonized or discredited (or at least ignored) in my home, the churches I was in, and my fundy U?

    1. The reason fundies can’t bring themselves to recognize Dr. King’s virtues is plain and simple. Fundamentalism (specifically the Independent Baptist variety) is rooted in good old fashioned Southern RACISM! All of the so-called “fathers” of the IBF movement and founders of many Fundy U’s have come from that background.

        1. …or that the Graves dorm is named after Bibb Graves, two-term governor of Alabama (1927-31, 1935-39) and Chapter President of the Montgomery branch of the Ku Klux Klan.

        2. Same with BJ Sr. At his “Ku Klux Klan Night” he told the KKK that “your purposes are high and holy.”

        3. John Sephus Mack (for whom the Library is named, and a girls dorm is named after his wife) was present at that KKK night as well…

    1. You’d think. There’s plenty of fundy infidelity to go around. Somehow doesn’t stop them from gladly attempting to climb up on that moral high horse (even decades after he’s dead).

    2. Yup. They excuse the sins of some men because those men are “one of us” while excoriating other men for the SAME SINS simply because they’re not in the same camp. It’s rank hypocrisy and I believe violates the Bible’s command for us not to be a respecter of persons.

      1. It’s hypocrisy only if it happens. No one has ever accused Jack Hyles of committing adultery with his secretary; he was accused of have too close of a friendship with her, but I am not aware of any legitimate charge of adultery.

        Also, I am **no** follower of Dr Hyles; I think he did break up the secretary’s home, but no one accused him of the actual act of adultery — they always stopped short.

        Presumably, with MLK, the evidence of his adultery is well-documented.

        1. I assume you jest when you say no one accused Jack Hyles of adultery. For starters, the woman’s husband accused him. Also, many other people who knew Hyles well.

  17. MLK, more than anyone else corrupted us through making his “Snivel Rights” movement. You should read Peter Ruckman’s pamphlet “Discrimiaion, The Key to Sanity.” Why is we celebratin’ the womanizin’ commie who brought African music and jungle morals into the church. If this keeps up they wil be eating in restauants and dating White folk. (Hope you know I am writing satire.)

  18. To me as a black person, it seems to me that the phony moral outrage among fundies and conservative Catholics concerning what MLK may or may not have done in his personal life is a simply smokescreen for the real issue, namely that the Civil Rights Movement (personified by King) is believed to be the point when America started to go “downhill.” There is a persistent myth in these circles that everything in the US was fine, until those uppity Negroes started complaining in Montgomery, Birmingham, etc. Consequently, everyone else started protesting, which lead to feminism, gay rights, no-fault divorce, and abortion on demand. As far as I’m concerned, the MLK-haters don’t care whether he was with one woman, ten women, a thousand women or no women; it’s not as if they know or care anything about his wife, Coretta Scott King. That’s just an excuse to mask their antipathy towards the societal changes, both good and bad, that have occurred since the 1960s.

    1. I wish that they might with humility and repentance realize that maybe some of those bad social changes that have happened perhaps resulted from their refusal to be on the side of right in the civil rights movement. The Bible clearly tells us that God sees the heart and that we are not to be respectors of persons and that we are all equal at the foot of the cross, but so many people clung to their supposed “superiority” and the status quo. They were against what was right and lost credibility, and maybe that was why when they were against other things no one wanted to agree with them because they had been so wrong on civil rights. It should be “mMa culpa: forgive me, Lord, for I have sinned”, not “Look at those awful people over there and all the awful changes that happened in our country because of THEM.”

  19. Aside from the blatant racism in fundy churches, I think one of the reasons fundies to this day will rail against MLK is the whole “you have to follow the leaders in your life (i.e. your parents, your pastor and your government). So any rebellion against those fixtures is viewed with disdain in the fundy mindset.
    Yet somehow, the American colonies rebelling against England is viewed as acceptable.

      1. And can they not respect how he “rebelled”? He didn’t say to rise up and kill the oppressors. He didn’t say that white people were horrible and unworthy of inclusion in his better society. He envisioned a world for ALL and he advocated peaceful, nonviolent protest where the exemplary behavior of the protestors as they turned they other cheek would SHAME those who attacked them with clubs and dogs and fire hoses. Can’t they respect the restraint that was showed?

        BTW, when I was in jr. high (in a tiny church school with about 12 students total), the main teacher DID teach that the colonists were wrong in rebelling against England. I was highly offended! 🙂

        1. Let me guess…your teacher was the pastor’s wife whose only qualification to teach was a “Christian Education Certificate” from BasementFundy U?

        2. Not too far off! 🙂 She wasn’t the pastor’s wife, but she’d been raised in our church, went off to a small fundy U in PA, and then returned to her home town to marry a local guy and was hired to teach when our little church school opened.

        1. I like the fact that a Long Island Ice Tea doesn’t have any tea it in at all.

          Take that Great Britian 😉

    1. “So any rebellion against those fixtures is viewed with disdain in the fundy mindset.”

      I think it’s a little more complex than the way that you stated it. Fundy’s have no major objection to disrespecting government when it is headed by an African-American.

    2. Scorpio – I can’t believe that on a site that is recognizing a civil rights hero on a federally recognized holiday in his honor, you are guilty of sterotyping a whole group of people the way you are doing to “ALL” fundamentalists. Dr King fought against this type of “stereotyping” groups of people his whole life.

      I have been a part of several IFB churches, of all of them, only in one was there obvious racism, and to their credit they over time repented and now there is not a hint of racism there.

      I play bluegrass gospel music (yea, I’m a hillbilly) and my group travels all over our area and we play in lots of small churches and not once in 12 years have I heard or seen anything remotely racist of prejudiced, and these are mostly small churches, various denominations, usually white, although we have played in a few black churches. I had a black friend accompany us in October to a very backwoods church, I mean where they have to pump in the sunshine, and he had an amazing good time, in fact I had to drag him out of church so we could go home.

      Are there fundy churches that are racists? Probably. But to say all fundy churches are racist is completley wrong, and I don’t appreciate it.

      Just keepin it real!

      1. Greg – You must’ve been associated with different fundy churches than I was. Racist undertones were everywhere in my previous church, and it was a leader in the fundy movement.

        To be fair, racism is alive and well in many other churches against whites as well.

        It’s a sin issue and we all need the grace of God to help us love each other.

    3. Ooh ooh, who remembers the movement to rename the American Revolution as the.. War for Independence? (or something like that) because, “The colonies weren’t really rebelling, rebelling is bad! They were fighting a righteous war against evil oppressors who had no right to rule them.”

      Ah yes, growing up in the church the only thing I ever heard about MLK was that he cheated on his wife. Boggles the mind it does. Have these people ever *read* the Old Testament?

  20. I have a particular disdain for what passes as “equality” and “civil rights” today. It started not at a fundamentalist college but at a secular college where I was going through teacher training. Among other things I learned during my teacher training were:

    1: If you are white and have enough brains, health, and money (scholarships or otherwise) to be at a college then you are evil by definition and you owe everyone in the world a living.

    2: Minority students, particularly black students, are not raised with the same morals as white students and cannot be expected to act civilized.

    3: A minority student should not be punished for lying, stealing, fighting, cheating, or any other offense that would get a white student punished because minority students’ cultures do not disapprove of these things. (As for adults, that also applied to rape and murder–as long as they were raping or murdering whites.)

    4: Black students are incapable of learning proper English and that is why Ebonics is a valid language in and of itself.

    Is THIS the “equality” that MLK and his generation was fighting for? I doubt it.

    1. Next SFL post: Attacking Civil Rights and/or Affirmative Action

      Seriously, Rose, those points you’ve made are strawmen. Is it possible you misunderstood what was said? I’m sure no one teaches those, not in an accredited school, not for state certified teachers. Except 4, which I can see possibly as a misunderstanding of the fact that linguistically, Ebonics *is* a valid dialect, and should be respected like all other dialects of English (including Southern dialects). People aren’t “less intelligent” for speaking a particular dialect. But no one says Black students *can’t* speak the General American dialect.

      1. No, Naomi, I am quite serious. I went to Marshall University (Rand University for you Randy Moss fans), and if that was one of the better teacher-training schools I feel sorry for everyone else.

        I heard #3 in a seminar for public school teachers in Kentucky during my student teaching. The speaker had the nerve to be offended that it didn’t go over well.

        I took an entire class on #1. The fact that the one teaching it was a young white woman made it even more maddening. I got into trouble for telling the prof that the only thing I “owed” a minority student was the exact same education I would give a white student. Apparently equality isn’t considered good enough anymore.

        A guest speaker in a high school teaching techniques said #2. Speaker: “Was it wrong for Shaniqua to steal the money?” Class: “Yes.” Speaker: “No, it wasn’t, not according to the culture of poverty. And remember that is where she was coming from.” And then she was surprised when we, the students, got mad.

        And #4 came from a language teaching techniques class. I got in trouble when I told the professor that if the students couldn’t be bothered to learn proper English by the time they reached high school it was not my job to translate tests into Ebonics. I failed that project.

        I take particular exception to Ebonics since I had teachers attempt to wipe out my “hillbilly” accent because it sounded “uneducated”. Apparently it’s OK for blacks to have their own dialects but not for whites.

        1. It’s very difficult to believe that things were taught anything close to the portrayal given in your first post. I’m very into social justice, and I’ve *never* heard anyone remotely suggest anything like that, nor do I believe it would be allowed in any school. Right now, I would assume there was simply a misunderstanding of the material being taught in the classes.

          1. Sounds like Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack more than anything else. Peggy McIntosh’s essay is not new or controversial, afaik. It’s not evil to have privilege – there’s nothing you can do about it. It’s just important to be aware that it’s there, and gives you advantages other people without it don’t have.

          2,3 – Look, I don’t know what you heard. I also don’t know what the teacher was really asking about taking money being wrong. Was it to buy food? Frankly, that’s going to change a lot of people’s opinion. But I don’t think you are correctly representing the teachers’ views on poverty or justice because the statements you’re attributing to them are just offensive.

          4. There is nothing wrong with a ‘hillbilly’ accent. Just because someone wrongly tried to erase yours, you’re going to do that to your students? Huh? That’s not how it works. I’m pretty sure that everyone who agrees there’s nothing wrong with Ebonics also agrees there’s nothing wrong with Southern accents. Maybe we can get our resident linguist to comment here. 😉 (FYI, Greg, we’re not linguistic prescriptivists anymore. What MLK spoke at home doesn’t matter.)

        2. I believe Rose. My education degree is from BJU, but I’ve read journals from elsewhere and there is a large part of higher education that isn’t just left-leaning, but extremely, virulently leftist. I have read that it’s “wrong” to impose grammar rules on students or to expect them to spell words correctly or end sentences with periods or to follow rules like “no stealing” or “no cheating.”

          The insanity is out there. Rose has seen it and heard it for herself.

        3. Naomi – You smart liberal folks sure do make me feel dumb, but I’ll ask anyway. Are you equating a southern accent to ebonics?

          One can speak proper english in a southern accent, can’t they?

        4. PW – You may have heard of that, but I’m saying, I’ve been *in* those schools for years, and I’ve never encountered it. Kind of weird. ❓ The only thing that makes sense to me is that stuff happened in the class that was misinterpreted?

        5. @Naomi, I’m glad you haven’t seen these extremes. I know there are VERY conservative school districts in the USA where what Rose is describing would never fly. But there are also extremely liberal school districts and colleges, and to tell Rose that she just misunderstood reminds me of what fundies told a lot of us when we tried to speak up about the wrong, illogical, unbiblical things we heard pastors say. They’d tell us, “You misunderstood. He didn’t mean that. Of course, that’s not what he REALLY said.” It left us feeling like Alice in Wonderland where we were hearing things no one else acknowledged, until we stepped outside the camp and realized there were others who heard it and agreed with us.

          Again, there are enclaves of extremism in education. Not all of us run up against it, but I thought Rose gave pretty convincing examples of what she’d experienced.

          And I didn’t mean to say that I’d just heard other people TELL me these things because hear-say from someone else isn’t always reliable; I’ve actually read some pretty extreme statements in educational journals.

          I don’t think this reflects everyone’s experiences, but I can’t just dismiss it either.

        6. Naomi – Why don’t you do us all a favor and stay off completely, after all Rose and Preacher’s Wife don’t know what they’re talking about either!

        7. PW – I’d love to see those journals. Feel free to pm me on the forum. I’ve spent years in a variety of actually liberal schools, and what Rose is describing being taught is so offensive that I have a hard time believing it wasn’t a misunderstanding. Certainly no one would ever word the ideas she describes the way she did in the original post.

          I have tried to be cautious about questioning Rose’s experience. I do think disagreeing with a teacher in class where everyone else is siding with you is a different situation from disagreeing with your pastor where you risk shunning and emotional abuse. That said, I’m not trying to deny your experience, Rose, just make sense out of it. If you want to pm me the names of your teachers on the forum, I’d love to talk to them. If you still have the syllabus, I’d love to see them.

        8. @Naomi, your request is valid. I wish I knew! I read a lot and have no idea where I’ve come across some of the same ideas, just that I have. If I do find them, I will PM you!

          I will totally concede that sometimes – actually often – in the circles in which I grew up “horror” stories of how bad public schools had become were rampant while people in those schools were saying, “We’re not seeing it.” If some of these things are aberrations or even exaggerations not trends, I will truly be happy!

        9. I went through a social work program at a state university, learned a lot about “social justice” (what does that term really mean?) and I was told repeatedly that this is what affirmative action looks like:

          Two people of different races and gender apply for a job and have sufficient qualifications. You pick the candidate who represents a race or gender that is in the minority of what you have in your workforce in order to promote diversity. Or if the candidate with more qualifications meets your race or gender status quo, still pick the other if they at least meet the qualifications necessary for the job.

          I believe that diversity certainly has its place and can very well benefit a workforce, but I think that requiring hiring practices such as these are BS. Pick the candidate with the qualifications who you feel would best fit your workforce and do the best job.

      2. Naomi – Dr King was a mesmerizing, eloquent, dynamic speaker. I can hear him laughing right now about your “ebonics is a valid dialect” comment, not in his house it wasn’t.

    2. That sounds alot like the same stuff I was taught in many of my criminology classes. And at least in my neck of the woods in Virgina it is pretty close to the truth.

  21. Ooooh, OOOOOOH, this is something that has ALWAYS pissed me off. Growing up in my fundy high school and my fundy u, we didn’t celebrate Martin Luther King’s life. We were always taught that we shouldn’t celebrate him, but no reason was given as to why.

    When I got to where I knew better and discovered all of the other racism that ran rampant in fundyland, more and more, it sickened me.

    Dr. King was about peaceful protest, and dealing with what they had to deal with by so-called Christians back in that day, I can’t say I would have been as peaceful.

    I had the honor and privilege of working a summer at A&T University (a college in the forecourt of the Civil Rights Movement), and the stories from the older staff who were part of it all had me mesmerized.

    They knew that change needed to happen, and they had the guts to go up against the system to see that it happened.

    Those who went through it, the ones that I’ve met, are just wise and so very respectful. Their faces tell stories that they never have to tell.

    All they wanted was equality, and they went about it the TRUE Christian way.

    God bless them all.

  22. Not all of fundamentalism is blind to MLK Day. I teach at a fundamentalist Christian school, and we did not have classes at all. An entire county of public schools to the north of us had school today. I always make sure to teach the importance of King and his impact on the nation. He was a great man who did great things. What I tire of is the constant adoration of the man as something more than he was – just a man. I also am bothered by many who feel that conservatives or whites cannot claim him as their hero.

    1. Well, my Southern Baptist parents didn’t self-identify as conservative until the year nineteen-eighty – something. Told me stories about how they despised the racist reactionary attitudes of those opposed to the Civil Rights movement, (and it’s just results) and they feel that their brand of conservatism doesn’t involve racist attitudes. Some might claim that King (or his father?) had some kind of affiliation with the Republican Party, but his life work was certainly Liberal. I do think this holiday should be for everybody, even if you’re not off work today.

      What I take away from this blog entry is another example of an ultra-conservative group of people who are too stubborn to give up on something they really should give up on, or at best sweep it under the rug – and hope their young followers don’t take notice.

      1. Thanks for listening! I think it’s vital for Christians to recognize that the basis of a lot of what MLK taught was the historic Christian view of conscience, a concept not well understood now, only 40+ years after his death. Conscience, and all the ramifications of a conscience educated in Christian truth, is not even taught these days. And greg, of course, doesn’t even have one: a common problem in Christian Fundamentalism.

        1. Bassenco – Just figured out a way to make a million bucks. (Buy Bassenco for what she’s worth and then sell her for what she thinks she’s worth)

          If you’ve ever wondered why your circle of friends is so small, just have a look in a mirror.

          Btw, In case you don’t know it, for a christian, you’re pretty nasty.

        2. Greg, I don’t know who you are or what you do. But this comment just floors me. This has nothing to do with anything being discussed and is unkind and inappropriate. If you have a legitimate problem, I hope you take it up with Bass in a less public forum. This is a childish and cowardly personal attack and doesn’t belong here.

        3. AmazedbyGrace – You are following the dialogue aren’t you? If not, go back and s l o w l y read Bassenco’s nasty rant on me. I’ve hung around here long enough to know that this type of response is typical for her. Bassenco is as big a know-it-all, I’m-right-you’re-wrong person, as any fundy I’ve ever come across.

        4. Justifying yourself when should be apologizing. Even if all the worst things you say about BASS are true (doubtful), there’s absolutely nothing here about you from BASS. You’re just looking for fights all the time. Stop it.

        5. RobM – I wish someone would shake me and wake me up. Bassenco praddles on about conscience in christianity and then says that I don’t have a conscience and equates me to being a fundy. I know that you would not sit there and sweetly turn the other cheek RobM, at least you haven’t thus far.

          Only thing I can think of is that Bass has some serious new-fangled computer gear and she is able to send only me that undeserved, nasty rant.

        6. RobM, BASSENCO said, “And greg, of course, doesn’t even have one,” referring to a conscience. Easy to miss – I had to look for it.

          AmazedByGrace – agree. That attack was totally uncalled for.

          Greg, the many other conservatives on this board probably feel a little embarrassed by your exceptionalism, and overreacting attacks. You’re trolling. People aren’t going to take what you say seriously if you keep doing that.

        7. Oh my bad, it actually is there. Somehow still doesn’t seem to justify the pain that’s been unleashed on everyone. I wouldn’t say greg has no conscience, but it doesn’t seem to be saying anything to him about the “crying havoc and letting slip the dogs of commenting war”.

        8. Naomi – Tks for reading “all” of Bass’s comment, now question for you. Will you admit that Bass’s attack on me was completely uncalled for? After all I hadn’t said one word to her in the *entire* thread until she threw down nasty on me.

          Tough, ain’t it?

        9. I’ve held the view for years that Christian Fundamentalism is the only version of Christianity that sociopaths can understand and follow. I think Greg is another case in point. No, I don’ t think he has a conscience. I think lots of hard core fundies have no consciencer.

        10. Oh Bassy, Don’t be so ugly, we are trying to clean up these unsolicited personal attacks here at SFL, tell her RobM.

        11. Bassy – Just one last question for you, is it true that you wrote the lyrics for 2 live crew’s “As Nasty as They Wanna Be?”

        12. Greg I would be sympathetic, and I do think it’s uncool to name call, but for crying out loud, bud. If you can’t see that you are causing problems and blaming everyone on the planet for them, I don’t know what to say to you. Need to stop and just be normal. Accept people for what they are, not try to figure out what you think is wrong with them that needs criticized.

        13. RobM – If there’s an apology in there I accept.

          Can you really not understand that I said nothing, not a word to Bass, and she attacked me in her usual nasty, demeaning way, and somehow she deserves not to be called on it? I really don’t understand.

        14. That would not have been in any way shape or form an apology. I see from the timestamp BASS’s post was this morning, long long after you had gone off the deep end of inappropriate comments on this post. I wouldn’t have posted what BASS did, but she doesn’t really owe you one, and I definitely don’t.

        15. RobM – The judge and arbiter of what’s fair or inappropriate on SFL. Darrell give you a license for that job?

          I just get a chuckle at the inability of certain factions on SFL to deal with opinions that are not approved or sanctioned by themselves. I have offered different opinions than the “accepted” ones here, and have been vilified for those opinions, and in several cases, slandered. I bite back harshly (admittedly juvenile) and then next thing you know ya’ll want to put me in time out.

          Grow up and play nice and deal with opinions from someone relatively intelligent and I can assure everyone here that I will reciprocate in like fashion.

    1. I tried to ignore greg’s comment,but it just bothers me so much! That someone would think its ever appropriate to joke about buying and selling another person,and then to do it on this post honoring Dr King. It is offensive to me on so many levels.

      1. Jessi – Yes, and Sarah Palin is responsible for the shootings in Arizona because of her map of targeted states.

        You folks can pick apart anything and try to find a boogeyman somewhere.

        Uh Oh, I hope boogeymen weren’t traditionally black!

        Dialoguing with some of you brain surgeons here reminds me of the old saying, which many of you should heed “Better to keep your mouth shut and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

        1. You know, for someone who calls out people for being “nasty,” you sure use a lot of inflammatory sarcasm. Again, just calling it as I see it. 🙁

        2. Melody – I always tend to get alittle upset when someone takes a simple comment that I’ve made and then make me into a slave-trader, but I’m assuming, based from your comment that you can’t see or understand that.

        3. Wow.just wow. Greg,I was giving you the benefit of assuming your comment,”buy Bassenco for what she’s worth and sell her for what she thinks she’s worth.” was meant as a joke. I simply said I thought it offensive to joke about a person in that demeaning way. Any assumptions of slave trading are solely yours.

        4. Jessi – Man you sure do spell good to be only eight years old.

          I don’t think the most wild-eyed radical on here buys this lame explanation.

          Oh btw, I dabble in real estate and have a nice beachfront home I’m selling in Kentucky, if you’re interested.

        5. Naomi – Yes its tough being perfect.

          But you haven’t seen me call anyone a liar like you have done to Preacher’s Wife and Rose. It really ticks me off in reference to PW especially, because everyone on here loves, respects and admires her (don’t know Rose well, but I have no reason to doubt her, as you did) PW is one of the main reasons I bother to stay around on SFL, and I highly resent the way you have treated her.

          You may condemn you all day long, but my friend, whether they are saying it or not you lost alot of credibility with the regulars here when you slandered the good name of PW.

        6. Greg, it’s OK! 🙂 I’m really glad Naomi hasn’t heard such things in the educational circles she’s in! And I personally don’t have proof – wish I did! I also never attended a class where I was expected to learn from a teacher pushing really radical ideas like Rose has. I know I’ve read stuff like that, but I don’t remember where, so I really don’t have proof of it.

          I appreciate your kind words. This past year many, many of our church members that we considered friends have dumped us, ignored us, and some are speaking quite badly of us, and my feelings have gotten hurt (I know, I’m a big baby; Jesus said we will suffer persecution, and I pout because some people are rejecting me. Not very mature of me, but I’m trying to learn to rejoice in “suffering”.) So anyway, thank you for liking what I write. I enjoy getting to think out loud on this blog about all the changes I’m going through as we step away from the IFB (probably not far enough away for some folks, but that keeps things interesting around here!)

        7. PW – The exact type of gracious, forgiving response that me and others have come to expect from you.

          I am confident that God is directing you and your husband, and pray and wish you well in your pursuit of His will in your lives, and the lives of those you are attemtping to influence.

        8. Also you might be over-estimating my popularity! 🙂 I tend to take things pretty seriously, sometimes I get on a soapbox, and I’m not very funny. I know I really enjoy reading the funny comments people post and wish I were as witty!

          I sort of see it as a picture of the body of Christ: how some of us are an eye, some an ear, some a foot! (I also realize not everyone on here is a Christian.) We SFLers share an IFB background, but we’re quite diverse and we like different things, so I don’t think my posts are something everyone likes or needs or responds to, though I am glad when someone is blessed by what I write! I know I’ve been blessed, challenged, encouraged, and amused by many posters here!

        9. Thank you! I greatly appreciate your prayers! Sometimes I feel like Indiana Jones where he has to step out over the cavern into empty space on faith alone; once he commits himself the bridge appears under his feet. We’re stepping out in faith, and we’re trusting God will bless, because if we fail, a LOT of people will be laughing at us, but that would be OK too, because it’s not about us; it’s about God. (But it would still be humiliating.)

        10. I never slandered PW or Rose. I also never said they were lying. I said I had a hard time believing, which is true, but that I would love to have them pm me with names/links so I could see for myself. And seriously, PW, if you run across any of those journals again, give a shout! I will never not be interested in seeing that.

          Hmm, PW – I really don’t think it’s ‘pouting’ to be hurt when people do hurtful things to you. It’s perfectly normal, and not prohibited. Jesus empathized! The idea that you have to rejoice about everything that happens to you, even when it’s really terrible, is so oppressive – Jesus never said to stuff your emotions, or only have positive feelings. Not that you’re suggesting that, but I know that’s one idea from the fundy days I’m relieved to have left behind. Don’t ever beat yourself up for being human! 😀

        11. That’s good advice, Naomi! It’s definitely an area where I’m still highly influenced by my fundy upbringing: the idea that you must always be a good testimony and the only way to do that is to act like everything’s perfect. Actually, I think now that showing your pain (the way David did in the Psalms) and yet still following God IS a good testimony, not just pretending that everything is always hunky-dory. But it’s hard to get over the guilt that I’m not being the perfect “show window.”

  23. Wow, I missed all the good stuff today. Wish I would have had tome to pop some popcorn and grab a beer. Looks like it’s been a good one.

    As a child of the 60’s in NC and able to remember some of the violence of the late 60’s after Dr. King’s assassination I can speak from experience. I was in 2nd grade when forced bussing was begun in Forsyth County NC. I remember the tensions and the adjustments that we had to make as a nation.

    I remember the n-word was as common then as the f-bomb is today. I had to learn that people are people regardless of their skin tone. It took me most of my life to get over my biases and bigotry. It wasn’nt until I went in the Marines that I finally got the last of it out of my system. There is only one color in the Marines and that is USMC Green. There are dark greens and light greens…period. Bigotry dies rather quickly when you see the guy next to you is there to watch your back and you realize he is counting on you to do the same for him. It really is the content of the character and not the color of his skin. The love came when the Lord saved me and showed me how sin stained my heart was and it is His grace and His love that redeemed me, it is His love and His mercy that saves anyone. So how could I hold hatred and bigotry in my heart… towards anyone He died for?

    As for the south and the bigotry… it cannot be denied or defended. It was ugly and much of it was done under the guise of religion. Here’s a little homework lesson for those who would defend the sacred honor of the IFB institutions… especially local churches that have long established schools attached to them. Look at when those schools were chartered… the older more established schools you will find the majority of them (here in the south) were started in the 1960’s. Anyone want to hazard a guess as to why then? I’ll give you three guesses and the first two don’t count. The IFB in this area capitalized on the bigotry and fear of folks sending their white children to school with the black children, and that is a fact! I was there
    I saw it, I lived through it. I have friends who were nowhere near religious but they attended the Baptist Christian Schools because mommy and daddy didn’t want their children to have to go to school with those blacks. I have heard it from the mouthes of those parents. What’s worse I’ve heard it from the pulpits.

    The sermons about the mark of Cain! The sermons on slavery being Biblically correct. I have attended churches with known Klan members who were members of the church in good standing and were in positions of authority. These were good Baptist institutions!

    This will probably have my mom turning in her grave but.. today I celebrate Martin Luther King’s birthday. I give honor to the man and what he did for our country. To my brothers and sisters who are “dark green” I say here and now in this public arena, I apologize for what I once was. I love you.
    In my heart of hearts I say that unreservedly. Happy MLK.

    1. Don,
      I ALSO grew up in Forsyth County. You speak the truth. I went from public school in the 8th grade to 9th grade at a new Christian school that just opened. Must have been about 1971. This was to prevent me having to be bussed to the other side of town to a black school.

      A lot of psychological abuse went on at my new Christian school. One teacher said he wanted to throw gasoline on the Beatles as they were being thrown into hell. I had never heard such a statement as that. Another teacher was an emotional wreck over worrying about “Red China” nonstop. She gave us tons of pamphlets about the Council on Foreign Relations, etc. and how evil they were. Oh yeah, they actually had you kneel down so they could measure the length of your skirt there also.

      Being a serious, worrying type, I read them all (the pamphlets) and finally my mom got sick of it and threw them all in the trash.

      These were the kinds of teachers I had at that school. I went back to public school in 10th grade, to the black school, and survived. Mainly good memories of that year-learning about George Carlin and also I had a wonderful geometry teacher that I loved.

      The change back to public school was probably because of money. The public school was a healthier environment.

  24. What takes the cake is the clowns on the right posting on their Facebook status today that they are celebrating Robert E. Lee day. It’s on thing to ignore MLK, it’s another to bring the Civil War into the picture on a day like today. Stupidity knows no bounds.

    1. That’s a pretty common thing in Virginia, as MLK does coincide w/ the same day that was traditionally Robert E Lee day, and has clearly grown into just a way to say you aren’t racist while often being so.

    2. As slave-owners go, Robert E. Lee was one of the better ones, but I’ve said it before and now I’m saying it again: The Civil War is over, folks. It was over before my great-grandparents were born. Those times are not coming back. So get over it and move on.
      If Lee were alive now, he’d be saying the same thing. After all, he was the Southern leader who had the good sense to surrender while there was still something left to save.

      I feel lucky to have grown up in a southern state without slavery and, for most of my life (since the passage of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act), without Jim Crow.
      So yes, MLK Jr. is my hero, and General Lee is not.

      1. Agreed.
        (but I will have to admit my Great-grandfather fought in the Civil War, was wounded and taken prisoner, seriving the duration of the war at a Richmond Va. POW camp. Have a documented copy of his release paper allowing him to return to NC. My Grand dad was born 1898, dad was born 1932 I was born 1963. Kids at school used to call me a liar when I told them my great-grandfather fought in the Civil War. Not that I’m bragging about his involvement but we really are not that far removed from that generation. We have come a long ways yes, but we are only one generation away from the 1960’s as well. Some of our parents remember segregated facilities for Black and Whites. So we are not that far removed from the conflict as one might think.)

        1. I’ve been told that my great-great grandfathers all fought in the Civil war, but I don’t know what they did in the war. I’m pretty sure they were all on what I (now) consider to be the wrong side– the Confederate, pro-slavery side. One of them went off to war (supposedly) and never came back. No one in my family knows if he was killed in the war, died of other causes, or just saw a good chance to escape from his life in Texas. Or maybe, as my grandmother (his granddaughter) used to say, he was hanged for horse rustling. She may have known a bit more about the matter than the rest of us (in my lifetime) did.

          Anyhow, yes, the struggle for civil rights was very much a part of my own time (I was born in 1958), and my parents were directly involved in the fight against segregation in education and housing. They led a racially-mixed, co-ed church camp for students in Texas back in the early 1950s, which was pretty radical by the standards of that time and place. And did many other interesting things, too many to list here. So, within a few generations, my family has been on both sides of the struggle. And it isn’t over yet. But I’ve seen a lot of change in my liftime, and much of it was because of King and his many allies. He wasn’t the only civil rights leader by any means, but he was one of the most eloquent, and he died a martyr for the cause.

  25. One of my Facebook friends posted this link today under this caption “Do you really know who this wicked man was that is celebrated today?” http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=555

    No one yet has responded in defense of King. I’m kind of surprised, but kind of not. Before I defriend her I’m going to remind her that all of us are wicked. It’s not anything unique to Martin Luther King, Jr. And how wonderful is it that God can use us with all our faults for his glory.

    1. The thrust of that piece seems to be, “Martin Luther King, Jr. was in favor of family planning; therefore he’s the same as Hitler.”

      Sorry. Not buying that.

      The other claims of “wickedness” in the piece are partly true and partly fiction, but there’s no point in trying to sort out all that, when the central thesis of the essay (pro birth control = pro genocide) is absurd.

      1. Yes, I do, RobM. I guess it’s a function of the fact that I’m “on the way” out of my fundy past. Some people in my former life may not be completely aware of my journey. And the fact that the roots were so deep, makes a complete break almost impossible.

        1. The Internet doesn’t help. I don’t quite get Facebook, considering that I registered an account under a false name.

    1. Yay for electricity!!!

      Of course your friend overlooks the fact that while Ben franklin did a lot of great things, he also did a lot of women.
      But since he was one of the Founding Fathers, that means he was a sin-hatin’, KJV-readin’, in the church whenever the doors are open fully separated IFB. 😆

    2. If that’s the same friend who’s offended by the fact that MLK (allegedly, and I think probably) had extramarital affairs, I wonder what he or she thinks of Franklin’s record in that regard.

      1. Oops, I just noticed that Scorpio posted more or less the same comment before I did.

        The ironic thing about the rest of your comment, Scorpio, was that King was much, much closer to being an IFB than Franklin ever was. That is to say, King was a Baptist preacher (in the National Baptist Church), while Ben Franklin did not belong to any church, and was critical of organized religion for the most part.

    3. Wouldn’t be surprised if we had some friends in common, lol!

      Facebook is a funny place, because it’s the mixing ground between my fundy college friends and my non-fundy military friends.

  26. I love this site! Everything is so perfectly true. You’ve showed me why everything that bothered me about fundyism bothered me. Hilarious stuff! Sadly, I am now addicted to something else…what will it be next? Alcohol or drugs?

    1. Well, come on over to the forum if you want the complete addiction experience.

      I am Natalie, teacher of the Christian Superior Womenhood Class at SFL Baptist Church.

      I have my place on my butt cushion in MY pew. That is, unless someone pisses me off, and I take my butt cushion to the other side of the church. Don is known for putting whoopie cushions in my butt cushions which makes for SUCH an unladylike descent.

      I also have my Not Speaking To List, which I keep in my pink roses lace Bible cover that looks like a purse.

      So, welcome, and we hope you admire our white piano.

      1. Truth is, most everybody’s on Natalie’s Not Speaking To List. She really has that “separation” thing down. It doesn’t stop her from speaking to us when she wants to, though.

        1. I’ll tell ya a little secret, but, shhhh, don’t tell anyone.

          I really don’t have a Not Speaking To list. I just use it as an idle threat.

          (not that it’s ever REALLY threatened anyone) 😉

    2. @God’s Child, you said, “Sadly, I am now addicted to something else…what will it be next? Alcohol or drugs?”

      Yup! This is a slippery slope. Today, Stuff Fundies Like. Tomorrow, you’ll be lying in an alley with tracks up your arms. Beware! 🙂

  27. BTW, IDK why I didn’t say anything till now, but the resurrection reference was an excellent ending. Noticed it very early in the day, and didn’t say anything till now for whatever reason.

  28. *Whew* Just finished reading ALL of these posts and I too missed all the fun. Just some brief thoughts:
    I didn’t realise this site had any particular political slant, Greg’s posts did seem to touch some nerves though.
    Natilie shows the “usefull idiots” blindness to the very obvious abuses of many of those who have an agenda couched in “good” motives.
    Dr. King Jr. was an admitted socialist. That does not mean that the things that he publicly said were not true. That is the way of those who use the cry for social justice to further thier ends. They use the fuel that is given them to burn down the establisment, taking avantage of obvious injustices.
    Sometimes, inadvertantly, they do correct true injustice, as did the Reverend Doctor, and such should be celebrated. The catch comes in halting the ultimate goal of inflicting injustice in retaliation, or at least “empowering” someone else to inflict injustice that they find more acceptable.

    Love this site. 🙂

    1. “Dr. King Jr. was an admitted socialist. That does not mean that the things that he publicly said were not true.”

      I’m not sure what the unspoken “but” is doing there.

      It’s not like King was born and raised a socialist. He came to it towards the end of his career as he became convinced that the current system was incapable of solving the problem. It wasn’t an ideological stance, it was the result of hard experience.

      Can we just admit that many of his radical ideas were probably right? Many of the complaints upthread by people who resent what they feel is undue charity towards blacks are a pretty good indicator of the problem with taking the slow road to absolute equality.

      Had King been given his every wish, it would have been taken care of quickly, painfully and completely. That’s what we mean when we say “radical” after all; like radical surgery, straight to the heart of the problem

  29. Always thought Chris Rock summed up Americas support of MLK

    “If a friend calls you on the telephone and says they’re lost on Martin Luther King Boulevard and they want to know what they should do, the best response is ‘Run!’” Rock once exhorted.

    Comedian Chris Rock wryly observes in old stage routines that some of the most dangerous neighborhoods in America are those that intersect with roads named after King.

  30. “Natilie shows the “usefull idiots” blindness to the very obvious abuses of many of those who have an agenda couched in “good” motives.”

    Huh? I’m lost.

    Oh and my name is spelled with an “a”, not an “i”. Oh and “useful” is spelled with one “l”.

    1. I’ve said it before, but I think it bears repeating: When you’re calling someone an idiot, an ignoramus, a fool, or any synonym thereof, it’s best to spell all the words correctly in your accusation.

  31. From his own writings: “The Humanity and Divinity of Jesus.” (http://bit.ly/768JcQ) 2nd to last paragraph.

    “…the orthodox view of the divinity of Christ is in my mind quite readily denied.”

    Can someone deny that Jesus was God and be a Christian (in the Biblical sense, not the cultural sense)? I don’t think so.

    1. I just read the last two paragraphs of the paper you cite, and in them King says (several times) that he does indeed see Jesus as being devine. So I would say, yes, he was a Christian. His Christology may not be identical to yours, but I see than as a comparatively small disagreement.

    2. Big Gary,

      The last sentence:

      “This divine quality or this unity with God was not something thrust upon Jesus from above, but it was a definite achievement through the process of moral struggle and self-abnegation.”

      Dr King is asserting that Jesus attained divinity through the process of moral struggle. That is NOT an “a comparatively small disagreement,” and is NOT the Gospel!

      1. “This divine quality or this unity with God was not something thrust upon Jesus from above, but it was a definite achievement through the process of moral struggle and self-abnegation.”

        I would highly disagree with this statement, and I agree with you, John Brian, that this is not what the Bible says.

        Here’s my problem: 1 Cor. 13 says, “If I . . . understand all mysteries and all knowledge, . . . but have not love, I am nothing.” A lot of people know all the right stuff about Jesus, but hate others. I can’t judge someone’s soul or someone’s salvation (although I have serious problems with someone who doesn’t believe Jesus is God). However, the Bible commands the we love others: “If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.” (I John 4:20). And from 1 John 3: “This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God’s child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister. For this is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. . . We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. . . This is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.” It seems that a lot of people have the first one down – believing in Jesus – but fail dismally on the second part – loving one another. And we can’t pick and choose which commands to obey.

        So to me, if MLK’s views about Christ as expressed in that quotation might cause someone to question if he were a true believer, I think it is equally valid to question the salvation of anyone who has hate in their heart toward people of another race.

        (Love is WAY more important than my fundy upbringing taught me. Love doesn’t negate holiness or right views about God and Jesus, but love is absolutely necessary. And I humbly acknowledge that I have failed to be as loving as I should! But I WANT to love.)

        1. Pastor’s Wife,

          The 10 Commandments are divided into 2 basic commands; the first 4 have to do with our love for God, and the next 6 our love for man. The rich young ruler (Luke 18) was turned away not because he hadn’t observed the latter (for he had), but because he loved something (his wealth) more than he loved God.

          You are right that both are important. There are however, false believers, and they are not restricted to only 1 particular group. As you have shown, those who don’t love others, but who profess to love God, show that they are not true believers.

          Each of us has to constantly examine our own hearts, the “work hard to show the results of your salvation (Phil 2:12 NLT),” to see if what we PROFESS is the same as what we POSSESS.

    3. Philippians 2:5-11 NLT

      5 You must have the same attitude that Christ Jesus had. 6 Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. 7 Instead, he gave up his divine privileges; he took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When he appeared in human form, 8 he humbled himself in obedience to God and died a criminal’s death on a cross. 9 Therefore, God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    4. Must we re-fight the liberal/fundamentalist split?

      King was a liberal. He did his doctoral thesis on Tillich and Henry Nelson Wieman. The first sermon he delivered was written by Harry Emerson Fosdick.

      The split of the ’20s ended in a stalemate. The liberals are hear to stay. You don’t have to agree with them, but you do have to live with them.

  32. I was reading the debate on this thread last night, and since then it has grown immensely in size, so I apologize if someone already made this point…

    As a Southern trained evangelical pastor, bible U and Mdiv, I have come to realize that simple truth why Fundies don’t like MLK: They are by and large the racists that he was fighting against! Go to Brimingham today, there are well known churches that still don’t allow black members.

    Virtually all of the people who fought the civil rights movement were unfortunately conservative Christians. They are the ones that lost court battles, they are the ones who held the fire hoses, and they are the ones who lynched people. It was radical Muslims or worldly atheists. It was “God-farin'” churchgoers! Almost makes me want to be an atheist. Too bad God called me to grace.

    1. “They are the ones who held the fire hoses, and they are the ones who lynched people.” Truly terrible! How, oh, how could people have the Word of God that tells us to be loving, humble, and gentle and then behave this way? I know we all tend to a pride and self-righteousness that blinds us to our own faults, but this is egregious! How much has the name of Christ been damaged because of behavior like this?

      1. “How much has the name of Christ been damaged because of behavior like this?’

        A lot. Among people who don’t go to church (which is most Americans), the reputation of Christianity and of churches is not good.

        The Book of Acts tells us that outsiders remarked on the love demonstrated by people of the early Church. Non-church people nowadays more often remark on how judgmental and hypocritical they think Christians are.

        1. On the other hand, I really like MLK’s version of being Christian. 😀 Perhaps remembering/emulating that legacy would be better than the fundy one(s)? If you’re ever getting depressed about the state of Christianity today, just look at the churches and Christians who worked with him and who continue that!

      2. “How, oh, how could people have the Word of God that tells us to be loving, humble, and gentle and then behave this way?”

        There are many that have the word of God but far too few that have the God of the word. That has always been the problem with fundies. 🙁

        1. “There are many that have the word of God but far too few that have the God of the word.”

          Oh, I love that saying. I’m definitely going to use it.

  33. MLK was a wicked plagiarizing, whoremongering liar. His “day” should be repealed. I’d rather have a Malcolm X day, at least Mr. X had integrity and was exactly who he said he was. Even his enemies cannot besmirch his character.

  34. Polished Shaft

    “It’s a sin issue and we all need the Grace of God to help us love each other.”

    Yes you are so right, if we would listen to the Holy Spirit instead of our earthly, sinful natures, we would see many of our problems evaporate.

    After reading others stories here, I realize that I was very fortunate not to have experienced the depths of racism as some have. I did mention the one church, which was the church I grew up in, it was very bad, but as I said, over time they repented and things got much better.

  35. Methinks greg is a little bit like Dr. Laura – they want everyone else to blame themselves for their issues, but they only want to blame others for their issues.

    1. My, My, My Aren’t we the little psychaitrist today?

      It’s hilarious because you probably aren’t bright enough to understand the irony of you “analyzing” me, and then comparing me to Dr Laura.

    2. Ok, ok, I think we’ve worn this one out. I too think greg, however well he means, probably doesn’t see how offensive he comes across. That said, it’s not a good idea to keep it going by throwing his name out there. Can we be peacemakers and move on, please? <3

      1. Melody – Yep like I just initiated this last dust-up with wonder boy.

        Melody, you certainly possess a modicum of sense. Now was Dan Keller acting offensively to me?

        1. Depends on your definition of offensive (another can of worms, I won’t go there). I do think he was out of line by just adding another comment when you had said nothing to him today. Seriously, everyone, let’s just drop it.

        2. Melody – Blessed are the peacemakers!

          Not only ready to drop it, never wanted it started.

          You may have a career in politcs.

          God Bless You 😀

  36. BigGary: No, I’m not justing. Her husband always stopped short of saying that Jack Hyles committed adultery with his wife. He accused him of breaking up his home, of stealing his wife’s affection, and many other things, but he refused to accuse Jack Hyles of adultery. People further away from the center may have assumed he committed adultery, but that charge was not made by those closest to it.

    I assume you jest when you say no one accused Jack Hyles of adultery. For starters, the woman’s husband accused him. Also, many other people who knew Hyles well.

  37. This is just a personal example which demonstrates that not all conservative Christians feel animosity towards MLK. I go to a college that takes Christianity seriously, and I would consider the beliefs of all the faculty and most of the students as traditional and conservative. However, every MLK day every student takes the entire day to volunteer in the community. It’s an official school-wide event, and even though it’s not mandatory, I’ve never heard of anyone who didn’t participate. Also, my freshman English professor had us read “Letter from a Birmingham Jail” and cited King as one of the three greatest orators America has ever known. Also my speech professor had us watch the “I Have a Dream” speech as an introduction to the class. I’m glad I can go to a Christian college that’s not anything like Fundy U!

  38. I know that all may not agree with MLK. But I know that many Fundie churches stood on the wrong side of history and are continuing to do so. As an African-American I am pleased to see so many people in support of the change that MLK started, even though we don’t agree with his lifestlye. The Christian education that I received did not tell the whole story of what he did. It was only in college that I realized what he did for this country.

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