Disunity

In fundyland, any talk of unity is generally greeted with a healthy dose of suspicion. For in any group of significant size with even a hint of diversity there will be those who may disagree with the fundamentalist on some point of doctrine, practice, or formal etiquette. You just can’t trust anybody these days.

Indeed, the call to unity is the great siren song of Satan. For one fateful day, hand will join in hand and all the world’s great religions will combine into one single world religion under a world-wide government with a single currency and a single language. This will in turn lead to seven really icky years of tribulation (which Christians will be lucky enough to miss via the Rapture) and then the peace and prosperity of the millennial reign of Christ. So, of course, you can see why such a fate is to be avoided at any cost.

In short, the fundamentalist will not be adding his name to your club, group, or knitting circle unless its focus is shooting stuff or getting a candidate elected. To hear more, consider joining our Counsel on Holy Disunity and Blessed Isolation. Meetings are held every Wednesday at 4 p.m.

145 thoughts on “Disunity”

    1. Interestingly, reminds me of the Catholics I know in Baltimore.

      They have been seperating for centuries and keeping things ancient for the sake of ancientness….and let’s not forget the Nun’s.

      Very interesting parrallels actually. Someone should write abook. Or a blog. Hmmmmm……

        1. None of the Nun’s? LOL

          I was referencing their dress, behaviour, emphasis on corporal punishment etc. a nd it’s similarity to fundyism.

        2. Down in Georgia the answer is Sam Nunn, former Georgia Senator. 😎
          I suppose you could call his boy Brian the Son Of Nunn? (ducks to avoid tomatoes) 😛

      1. Big Gary was making fun of your grammar.
        “Nun’s” is a possessive, meaning “belonging to a single nun.” The correct plural of nun is nuns. Note that the word nun is not capitalized, but the title Sister is, when followed by the name of a specific nun.

        1. And while we’re at it, in the phrase “it’s similarity to fundyism,” “it’s” should be spelled “its”. “It’s” is a contraction meaning “it is” while “its” denotes possession.

      2. I’m glad others have taken up the Grammar Bug mantle. Saves me the trouble….
        About Catholicism and the Catholics themselves – I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. The Roman Orthodox church certainly has its long-held traditions and doctrines, and in that way I suppose the RCC and fundy churches are similar. But they do not hold on to doctrinal positions and such just because they are old – to so assert shows a complete misunderstanding of how RCC doctrines are created, promulgated, and yes, changed. (Paul VI anyone?) They do stick to tradition and declare thatthey are right when denominations disagree, unlike all others, which freely concede the possibility that they could be wrong 😕 – NOT! And while the RCC claims authority in matters of doctrine, they do not separate themselves from other denominations on this basis at all. The RCC will work with any other Christian group in areas such as basic missions and service. At least when the RCC invokes the authority of history, they have a credible record – unlike the IFBers and their nonsensical “Trail of Blood.” Pfui.
        The saddest similarity is abuse of parishioners and the professional clergy’s attempts in both groups to cover for their own failures.
        In some ways, the group most like the IFB movement is the Charedic/Hasidim movement within Judaism, esp. wrt pointless dress and worship practice issues. It’s always interesting to see young Israelis dressed in their great-great grandparents’ style of clothing made for the ghettoes of NE Europe – in a near-tropical desert. 😯

  1. Totally true. As a kid, I had no perspective on the church I grew up in, but we often heard about people who brought their prayer requests to us because “we are known as a praying church.” None of the kids I played little league with knew much of anything about the church, and most of the adults I eventually got to know (as I became an adult myself) primarily knew of us from a book-banning to-do from the early ’90s. Now, having grown up and gotten to know a lot of people from other churches in my hometown, I realize our church’s reputation was, if anything, that of a tiny, self-righteous enclave.

    They’re branching out somewhat now, though. They’re getting involved in a church softball league.

        1. Our church has played in a church league, but we’re now desiring to join a regular community league. What’s with all the hiding from sinners? Our God is strong enough to help us handle shaking hands after a game with an unsaved person. He’s even strong enough to give us love enough to get to know them and hang out with them and share the Gospel with them. Jesus didn’t call us to heaven (not yet!); instead He left heaven and came INTO this world, and He’s left us IN the world so why do we keep putting up walls then nervously inviting in a few from the world to come join us inside our walls (or our church leagues)? Let’s get out there and play ball!

        2. I used to play in one of the afore mentioned softball leagues. They didn’t dare play in a league open to just anyone. After all, those sinners have a tendancy to drink, cuss, and fornicate in the dug outs. Oddly enough, the league umpires claimed that they had more problems with the church league games than the other leagues. Who would have thought that different churches would have trouble getting along?

        3. They got more than one Baptist church to work together? What did the Lutherans invite them all to a keg party?

      1. The league my church was in was called the Fundamental Christian Athletic Association. It consisted of a group of “like-minded” churches. The sportsmanship displayed in those games was worse than I ever saw in a city league. I remember one of the rules was that shorts could not be worn. I guess fundies can’t resist imposing a dress code.

    1. PW – I still struggle with understanding women’s role in the church, but lady you have some things to say. I’ll bet you write your husband’s sermons! Seriously, your words are always kind and gracious, full of wisdom and understanding. I can see that is the sort of message for not only us hurting ex-fundy’s but for the world at large, I can just imagine that this was the way our precious Saviour dealt with people, in love and kindness, man that love is good stuff! and of course it was our Lord’s main message.

      I seriously appreciate you and the sharing/ministering that you do here. I’m not giving you a word of faith, but I believe with a heart like yours, and I’m sure your husband is similar, that God has some great things in store for you guys and your church.

    1. No, no, no, only the true “Washed in the blood of the blessed hope, Independent, Fundamental, pre-trib, pre-mil, trail of Blood, seperated, sanctified, 1611 King James Only, sin hatin’, Jesus lovin’, devil fightin’, soul winnin’, Old Paths, Baptists” will be raptured before the Tribulation cause God is good and they are his favorites, his chosen people. All others will have to go through the tribulation as punishment for not being true believers as outlined above. 🙄

        1. All of those too! If all those liberal, sin lovin’, devil worshipin’, short haired women/long haired men, open toed, sandle wearing hippie, commie types are fer it! We’re agin’ it! Hay-men? haaayyy-MEN!

  2. I’ve experienced this. You’ll be talking to someone about some movement and they’ll almost always preface it with, “Well it sounds good, but…” Or something like that. Never mind the fact that the movement is reaching people for Christ. Never mind the fact that as it grows it expands its reach. Because it is popular or big or useful now they have doubts. Isn’t that always the way?

    1. Sadly, yes. I’ve noticed that exact thing going on at my IFB church. That’s just one of the reasons why I am slowly distancing myself from that church; I’ve found another far better church to go to.

  3. At Thanksgiving dinner last week, my fundie stepdad was talking about world events. He commented that it is “scary” to see how the world is moving to one currency. I think he was pissed when I asked him why he would be scared by that. Shouldn’t that make us excited because God told us this would happen? He quickly back-pedaled but he was not happy with me.

    SFL: being “scared” that the Bible is true.

    1. Perhaps there’s a logical (gasp, did I just say that?) reason for their fear. Of course they won’t be here for the main events, but imagine how you’d feel if you knew that the blood of all the sinners to whom you should have witnessed would be on your hands. If you felt the rapture were going to happen Any Day Nowâ„¢, wouldn’t you be getting a bit anxious?

      1. Or possibly, the deep down fear that they might not be really saved (have I worked hard enough, witnessed to enough people, donated enough money to the church, ect…) and that when the Rapture comes they might be one of those left behind. When you’re being constantly told that you have3 to work, work, work to be acceptable on one hand and that “all our rightousness is a filthy rags” on the other, it’s hard to see a way that you can be acceptable to God at all.

      1. It is actually true, that the Euro might be a huge impediment to the recovery in Europe. In most of the cases countries either overextended due to an unrealistic bump in status by the euro or they unwillingly were draged into the position they now are in with no remedy because they cannot control their own currency. Ireland and Greece are an example of the former and Spain is an example of the latter.

    2. I was reading this http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-t-hughes/the-christian-right-in-co_1_b_777821.html

      Here is a very apropos quote: “And because pessimism and negativity were so central to the Fundamentalism project, Fundamentalists devised a premillennial escape hatch that assured them of victory in the life to come even if Modernists won the battles on this earth.”

      That made me laugh for some time. I had never thought of it that way, but it is so true! 😀

    3. “SFL: being “scared” that the Bible is true.”

      Yes!! So true. We are not to fear. Not to fear men, not to fear the end times. Our God is in complete control.

  4. Seems about right. The local IFB churches pretty much just pretend that their neighbor IFB churches don’t exist.

    The [Baptist] church I attend now participates in the community ministerial association’s Easter and Thanksgiving services, so we get to visit other churches twice a year, except when we host the “festivities.” The last one was at the Catholic church, where the priest gave the sermon. I’m sure our participation in this gives the local IFBs plenty of fodder for pointless pulpit postulations about our apostateness.

    1. Early 2010 I left one of those Fundy Bunker Compounds. Several of us earnstly tried to show that we were not the only “True Believers” in the community. Last year we actually attended one of these community church gatherings. We tried to introduce the reality that there we other version of Scripture other han the KJV. We tried to repair the image of that bunker in the eyes of the community but it was all for naught. Because the Methodist “Female” Pastor was one of those who spoke at that commuity service, they rejected attending one of those ever again.

      I had even suggested that due to the image of the Church being so intimately inter-twined with the actions and reputation of the former pastor and had left such a negative image in the community, that we have a funeral for that “church”. Take the granite “church: sign and move it out to the Grave yard, hold a service for it and bury it. (All the original church documentation was burnt in the arson fire at that former pastor’s home anyway. Of which he was the prime suspect but copped to a lesser cahrge) It would have been the perfect time to make a fresh start in the Community. (of course only three families actually lived in the immediate community. Now it’s down to 2)
      When we started looking for a pastor it quickly became apparent that the pillars of the church wanted to return to the wallow of fundamentalism, easy believism, shallow manipulative preaching and a one man rule so they could return to the comfort of their vomit.
      Yeah, The IFB is separated and self-sanctified. In reality it is a Cult.
      (sorry for the long postings recently. I’ve just had to vent somewhere.) 🙁

      1. That had to be hard, Don. I’m glad you had some others who were of like mind with you to be an encouragement in the Lord.

        I had to laugh at your idea of having a funeral for the church sign. We’ve been using that terminology at our church. We just voted a new church name. We covered up our old church sign with a huge black tarp. We have potted flowers at the bottom, so it DOES kind of look like a tombstone! Lord willing, we’ll be able to replace the sign and have an unveiling in January, showing the community our new sign and our new direction!! (I don’t think we’ve had a BAD reputation in the town so much as a non-reputation. We are small and were isolated, but we’re trying to repent of that and become part of our community.)

        1. That’s the real ironic part of all of this. We were an average church. The people were normal nominal fundies. But we had been so indoctrinated by the IFB movement (read CULT) that we didn’t know we were on the Lunitic Fringe. But it costs to leave the cult, you have to want to think for yourself, and question the status quo. You have to be willing to examine your life and be honest with yourself, and God. Be willing to look at a sacred cow and say, “Is this truly of God or is it man made tradition?
          It is more comfortable to have the Pulpiteer tell you what to think than it is to actually think and compare it to the Word of God. One of my fellow member on the Pulpit committee actually told me you have to preach to the least among us if you want the church to live. (That was one of the dumbest things I thought I had ever heard. You should be getting away from the pre-chewed regurgitated tropes and make people reach for the truth. If they don/t have to reach for it, and it doesn’t trouble them… then they are not growing.)

          Actually the dumbest thing I heard was at one Pulpit committee meeting it was said, “We don’t need to be looking at resumes and questionaires, just get ’em in here and preach ’em. I can tell more about a man by hearing him preach.” A good wolf can bring 6 or 7 a-game sermons and fool anyone doing it that way. (they ended up with a easy-believeism guy who does the OFA one better, he just has them raise their hands in the pew and tells them, “If you really meant it and you were sincere then you are saved.” Presto-change-o and we can ring up another one.

          Sorry for that rabbit trail. But now we were not what I would consider “Fightin’ Fundies” we were just a your normal garden variey fundy church with no more rules than most IFB had, and not as strict on all of them either. (of course I did hear someone ask my wife one Sunday morning after the interim pastor, who was trying to lead us out of the bunker mentality had left, “What are we going to do about all these women wearing pants?” My wife just smiled and she told me later she wondered why that was still an issue. We found out that should have been a flag warning us about the direction the majority wanted to return to. (Extra-Biblical Rules and Standards… that make us more separated and more better loved by god)
          (holy Cow! ya’ll are going to be charging me extra for the lengthy therapy sessions I have been posting here the past couple of days. Hope my provider covers all this couch time!) 😯

        2. @Don “We don’t need to be looking at resumes and questionaires, just get ‘em in here and preach ‘em. I can tell more about a man by hearing him preach.” Boy! That REALLY shows a lack of discernment. That must have been so frustrating! Why did God have Paul write Timothy and Titus about the qualities of a pastor if all one had to do is listen to them preach?

        3. Yeah. I just couldn’t return to the wallow with them. I could not go back to the vomit and act like it was good preaching. I sat through another month of sermons and then addressed my friends at then end of a Sunday Morning sermon (where we had one of those self-called wannabee’s in preaching. Can you say s-h-a-l-l-o-w.) and told them I could no longer go with them and our paths were going in different directions from that point forward. I was going to follow the Reformed path and seek out expositional preaching, Baptist if possible but true to the five sola’s of the Reformation and the Doctrines of Grace in any case. (I have been accused of being a Calvinist, but I don’t carry that label. I will say I agree more with Calvin than I do with the Father of American Revivalism, Charles Finney, or any of his successors, or the Joneses or Roloff and any of that crowd.) And as Paul Harvey used to say, “That is the Rest of the Story. Good…day!”

        4. I am reading these stories and I wonder if any of you have read Randall Arthur’s books?( Wisdom Hunter or Betrayal)
          It chronicles the journey of an IFB pastor and his walking away from it..they are novels but quite good.

        5. @IamHisBeloved, I have “Wisdom Hunter”, and I thought I read it a long time ago, but I read a short description on Amazon, and I don’t remember it at all. I know it’s on my shelf. Guess I’ll go find it and read it. Thanks for the book suggestion.

      2. Don, I agree that they are a cult. It’s good to vent that stuff out. Some of it is hard still for me to talk about, but I’m getting there.

        So, you go ahead and write, and I’ll read.

      3. Thanks for taking the time to share your heart, Don. I am in the same place in my journey. Last weekend my husband was asked to speak at our friends’ church. He challenged the congregation on some of the fundy sacred cows, such as men and women’s attire, music, worldliness, and paralleled these sacred cows to the Pharisees who strained to put a hedge around the Torah. Your comment “You should be getting away from the pre-chewed regurgitated tropes and make people reach for the truth. If they don/t have to reach for it, and it doesn’t trouble them… then they are not growing.” describes this congregation perfectly. There were visitors there who appreciated and grew because of the message, but the core congregation has stagnated, and they have been this way for decades. This message troubled them, and you should have felt the blizzard-like coldness at the “fellowship” afterwards! How does shunning exemplify Christ’s love? How does funeral-style singing encourage others in the faith? Why is it that they will separate from someone who listens to Casting Crowns, et al, but won’t separate from a people/families who exemplify none of the spiritual fruit we are to display? BTW, do you think “See you at the Judgment” means we won’t be invited back? 😕

        1. That had to be awkward, but you never know what might result: if the seeds of the Word were planted, they could take root in the unlikeliest heart!

          And I totally DON’T understand why cold-heartedness, gossip, meanness, fear, gluttony, pride, and worry are acceptable sins, but women wearing pants or listening to Casting Crowns (I LOVE their music, BTW!) is considerd a sin worthy of shunning. It’s very frustrating to me because it does NOT reflect what the Bible really says!

        2. The problem is a problem of the heart. I love the people and I know there are true Christians in IFB churches. It is the IFB movement that is designed to produce individual bunkers of unaccountable leadership. When the only one you are accountable to is God you become the only god you are accountable to.

          I realize there are sincere men doing the best they know how and they love the Lord but they have allowed legalism to become doctrine. When you have the benevolent dictator he must use rules and regulations in order to keep his flock right. Of course this goes contrary to the Biblical concept of Liberty and Love for one another, submitting to one another in love and having the heart of a servant in ministering to each another. (according to Ephesians 4)

          Americanized Churchianity promotes the building, and the numbers and the successful ministry. Money, size, numbers and power dominate the americanized church. Power is inversely proportionaly to the size of the church it sometimes seems. Especially in the little rural IFB churches. There may not be much money to pay the pastor a living wage, but there is power to spare. The little church with no huge budget makes up for it by bestowing more power to the hands of the pastor… or more often than not, the M-O-g will take it for himself as his “oxen’s” due. Then he impliments his rules, add a congregation that has been taught that the M-O-g is on par with Jeremiah, Elijah and John the Baptist; stir ingredients with an emotional experience and voil’a instant cult.

          The programming is deep in the Americanized Church Bunker and doubly so in the IFB. Out in the Rural areas especially, you have so many preachers that were momma called, or were part of a Preacher boy clique whose main qualification for ministry is Acts 4:13a. And if this man/boy can stir their emotions and/or make them feel guilty enough to get them to the altar, then he’s a keeper.

          But like I said it’s a heart issue. And only God can change the hearts of men and women. Like PW said you never know when God will use a word here or a message there to break though the hardened scales that blind an individual’s or church’s heart. But for the grace of God I would still be in the IFB. I once was blind but now I see. But there are still issues and the reconstruction of my world view to deal with.

          btw I had to laugh over your “See you at the Judgment” phrase. 😯 Yes, I doubt you will be invited back if that was their parting salutation. But scripture says if they will not hear then shake the dust off your shoes and move on. God will Judge and judge righteously. Just be sure you are speaking Truth in Love and you can be sure the “results” are in God’s hands.

        3. Thank you so much, PW and Don! Just knowing I am not alone makes all of the difference! I’d hug you both, but unfortunately, that would be a show of emotionalism, and we all know that is a slippery slope leading to all sorts of worldliness such as unsubmissiveness to my husband, donning a miniskirt, or, God forbid, reading my devotions out of “The Message” instead of the KJV….Oh well….HUGE HUGS to you both! Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to the tattoo parlor to ink “apostate” on my forehead. 😆

  5. *thwap*
    Once again you hit the bullseye Darrell! I cannot begin to tell you how proud our mog was of the fact that he never participated in any local civic functions or organizations that involved religion. We were also repeatedly warned of the dangers and pitfalls of neighborhood and workplace bible studies. It was dangerous…yay even forbidden to get spritual teaching from anywhere or anyone except him.

        1. Especially anonymous ones – cause they have no name to publicly trash from the pulpit in retalliation.

        2. FBC-Jax is Fundy enough. The former pastors had connections with my IFB church. I don’t know about the current guy, but the history is definitely there.

    1. The pastor at my hopefully-soon-to-be-ex-IFB-church one said, a few years ago, that he was invited to be part of an association of local pastors here in my hometown. He said he refused because it meant not fellowshipping with like-minded believers, and he said he didn’t want to compromise the faith (or something like that).
      Even back then, I thought that fellowshipping with other pastors was a good idea and likely to be challenging to the faith, which would be a great way to grow more spiritually.

  6. I have a question. I am a fundy and use the KJV. I think the KJV is the best translation but could it be that there are so many different translations and so many different denominations because God knew that all people are different? One size does not always fit all. Lexus might be the best car on the road but that does mean it is the best car for every person out there.

    1. *high fives 12-StepExFundy* 😛

      Good eye, Jason!

      The KJV certainly has its uses, and I still have more than one in my Bible collection. I made it a point to use KJV at our wedding ceremony for my Pentecostal and SDA relatives.

      People are different. Education levels, age, subculture, you name it. Some of us respond well to tradition and ritual, others don’t. Some are more formal, others more casual. I enjoy visiting different churches and seeing how each group worships in their own way, and there’s really something to learn from each group. (Speaking of, any Nashville-area SFLers going to First Friday at Christ Cathedral tonight? It’s the Advent service.) Sometimes people just “get it” better in one denomination’s style of worship than in another.

      Same thing with Bibles. Even when I was at BJU, I saw other Bibles in the bookstore. One blew my mind: a translation for the deaf. Turns out that they learn language differently from hearing people (yeah, bleeding obvious), so a translation that fits their needs and skills is necessary. Other Bibles are better for children or teens, like the ICB or the NIrV. People with learning disabilities do better with some translations than others, and then there are folks like me who want multiple translations, sometimes even in different languages entirely.

      Why limit God in the ways He chooses to communicate? 🙂

      1. We limit God’s way of communicating to us by our perceptions. God could not have communicated to Moses via the burning bush unless Moses believed it possible.
        How many of us would believe that God would speak to us via a popup message on the PC display?

  7. Disunity is the name fo the proverbial game. The simple fact that these kooks and morons won’t mirror Jesus’ prayer that “they would be one” as He and the Father were one reflects Don’s observation that Fundamentalists (Baptists or otherwise) are nothing but cults.

    Even IF they WOULD “fellowship” with other “like minded groups”, they would turn into a Holy-Huddle in the appropriate corner of the room and start disecting and spiritually dismembering those of “like mind” to prove who is actually on top of the Spiritual heap or closest to capture the “Holiness” flag.

  8. For me, the authored text was inspired. Copies are inspired according to their accuracy. Translations are just translations. The work of men. I think the different translations are because people’s language, environment, culture, thought processes, and dictionaries are different.

    My understanding of fundyland philosophy is that all must adhere to one size. BEWARE: You are on the sippery slope away from fundyland. 😉

    1. And then they get mad when you try to explain it to them. I mean, really.. Fussing over Bible versions where there are FAR more important things to worry about? One size doesn’t necessarily fit all.

  9. My husband works for the Boy Scouts. He knows that Methodists, Catholics, Mormons…almost all other churches are open to having a Scouting Unit but that the IBF is a lost cause. They will say “We support what the Boy Scouts stand for and think its a good thing…” but they rarely commit to having their church charter a troop.

    These Pastors keep their people so busy there is no time for anyone to take this on but their biggest fear is probably the idea that their boys might accidentally walk by a Catholic/Methodist/fill in the blank while attending summer camp. :mrgreen:

        1. I remember that!! I was a kid, and nobody ever explained it very well to me. I just was told they wouldn’t use the KJV any more and I always wondered why that mattered. But I knew enough not to ask questions.

        2. Our fundy church reject AWANA too claiming they did not have KJV anymore. After I left I found out the real truth: AWANA no longer EXCLUSIVELY OFFERED the KJV. Our new church has AWANA.

        3. They usually also say that they’re dropping it because the program is being offered to churches that the IFB think can’t – by virtue of their beliefs – sign off on the AWANA doctrinal statement. Like… I dunno… Southern Baptists. Or maybe GARBC Baptists.

          Interestingly enough, the SBC church down the road from us is now using Kids 4 Truth…

      1. Is that where Boys’ Brigade and GMG (aka Girls’ Missionary Guild, aka Girls Meeting God) came from, too? I grew up with those two.

        Personally, I loved AWANA. Was a leader or director in various churches for over 20 years. It pained me to see our church (one of the BJU orbitals) withdraw little by little from all the fun stuff. The big thing was when AWANA revamped the high school and junior high books, putting in images of (gasp!) real kids. Didn’t want the junior leaders to see sk8r bois wearing baggy pants or girls wearing jeans. By that time, I was on my way out. 😥

        They use Kids 4 Truth now. 🙁

        1. A friend of mine in Georgia is an extremely KJV only IFB Pastor, yet they use AWANA.

          I remember PCC going back and forth on them though.

          There is plenty of variety in independent Baptist churches

      2. And the Assemblies of God have the Royal Rangers. We can’t have the kids associated with some godless organization, after all. You never know when someone in a group like the Boy Scouts will try to sneak in a lesson about evolution, or convert the boys into homosexuals, or something.

  10. Hit the nail on the head, Darrell. I used to be JUST like this, but I went a step further. I would be leary of churches that claimed to be IFB, but if they did things different than my church, I became suspicious.

    My church was the end all, be all.

  11. And, I can’t go to the meeting, I will be in my closet with my KJV, in my dress, separating myself from The World, because I just feel “led”.

    My doctor says that I’m psychotic, but he’s a filthy heathen and probably a democrat and a Catholic and just doesn’t understand my need to separate. I told him I don’t need him. I just need the Great Physician, amen.

  12. Darrell, this describes my entire childhood perfectly. I began to really question fundyism when I realized that until I went to college I probably knew less than 10 people who weren’t part of my local IFB “flock”. That is not the model Christ setup for us! 👿

  13. At BJU a perfect example of this was the infamous “Steve Green” chapel. Steve Green was in town for a concert and part of the heading off of any students going to the concert or any CD signings or anything was a chapel where Steve’s song “Let the Walls Come Down” was played and then interpreted in the light of breaking down all barriers of doctrine and separation.

    How can you have a problem with “Where in Christ we agree, let there be unity.”? Well they did…for about 40 minutes of Triple Sticks rant.

    1. I was in that chapel service my freshman year. Completely bewildered me. Bob said they were gonna play some hideous CCM just to show us how horrible it is… I’m thinking Petra or something?… then they play Steve Green. I went back to my dorm room completely stunned and bewildered. My roommate told me that I “need to be more open-minded.” I went to a pay phone on campus so I could chat with a friend back home in private and cry out all my confusion about what kind of a crazy place is this? Before cell phones. I kept feeding quarters into that payphone.

    2. Hey, I was there for that chapel, too! Recently, after meeting Steve Green at a concert, I bought that CD on eBay to commemorate that infamous chapel. (Couldn’t get it on iTunes for some reason.) My wife and I heard the lyrics again and said, “No wonder BJIII was so ticked! The truths in that song were hitting pretty close to home!” 😮

      The lyrics are great, and are no doubt convicting, at least on a subconscious level, to many in fundyland, especially those leading the isolationist charge. Here are some of my favorite lines from that song:

      Stones of dry tradition, carved in fear and laid in pride
      Become a dismal prison to those withering inside.

      The body, weak and powerless, crippled by division,
      The victim of a tragic and most cruel civil war.

      Brother fighting brother over culture and tradition,
      While countless lost and dying lie as casualties of war.

      Good stuff, and relevant.

      1. I was there too. I wasn’t familiar with Steve Green until my then-boyfriend (now husband) gave me some music to listen to during Christmas/summer break. It was amazing: thoughtful, uplifting, and Scriptural. And even though I was uncomfortable with the idea of letting walls down (due to my IFB upbringing), I just couldn’t argue with the powerful message of this song. When we agree IN CHRIST, why NOT try to seek unity?

        1. Was I there too? What year was this? I remember one chapel about CCM, where a visiting speaker used an old Sandi Patti song to talk about how sensual the music sounded. It was a song I happened to not care for anyways, but my roomies and I talked later about how there was nothing very new or eye-opening in what had been said in chapel. I kept thinking that if Sandi Patti gave them headaches, whatever would they think of Stryper (which was pretty popular right then)?

    3. A couple of years back we had Steve Green come sing at our church. I got the opportunity to spend some time with him and the guys. I shared with Steve some of the stories about how he had been preached against in the churches I grew up in, and mocked as Steve Grunt (they always included Sandi Fatti in that diatribe). I also shared with him how hated the song “Let the walls come down had been in our circles.

      He was gracious and not ugly at all. He pointed out to me something he wished his critics had seen. On that same album he also recorded the song “We believe.” He pointed out that he SPECIFICALLY included that song to make it crystal clear that he was not advocating throwing off truth, rather unity in Christ. Interesting conversation!

        1. Here are the lyrics to “We Believe”. I learned to LOVE his music (although my parents wouldn’t let me play it at home).

          We believe in the Father, who created all that is
          And we believe the universe and all therein is His
          As a loving heavenly Father, He yearned to save us all
          To lift us from the fall . . . We believe

          We believe in Jesus the Father’s only Son
          Existing uncreated before time had begun
          A sacrifice for sin, He died then rose again
          To ransom sinful men, We believe

          We believe in the spirit who makes believers one
          Our hearts are filled with His presence
          The Comforter has come
          The kingdom unfolds in His plan
          Unhindered by quarrels of man
          His church upheld by His hand . . . We believe

          Though the earth be removed
          And time be no more
          These truths are secure
          God’s word shall endure
          Whatever may change, these things are sure . . . We believe

          So if the mountains are cast down into the plains
          When kingdoms all crumble, this one remains
          Our faith is not subject to seasons of man
          With our fathers we proclaim
          We believe our Lord will come as he said
          The land and the sea will give up their dead
          His children will reign with Him as their head

          We believe
          We believe

        2. I just listened to that song for the first time… I don’t see why anyone would want to ban it for being “bad”. It’s a beautiful song!

      1. you know, I’ll bet they are still chanting “no Steve Green/Sandi Patty in OUR church!” Steve Green/Sandi Patty are a team hand-in-hand bent on destruction in the devil’s plot to bring down the Church.

    4. I can’t remember his name but there is a speaker BJU has in chapel once every few years and he does exactly the same sermon, with the same lame “wife/woman” jokes and illustrations and slam on “CCM”

      His examples: Petra and Stryper. This was in about 2002 and 2008 when I heard this sermon. I remember thinking that Stryper was a joke back in the 80’s when i was in high school..These kids had no idea who he was talking about. Petra…not much better.

      He could’t even be bothered to step across the street to a Christian bookstore and update his uninformed rant with some current bands.

  14. I’m trying to move a local assembly of God’s sheep onto another property that just so happens to be owned by another local assembly of God’s sheep. They just so happen to be Neo-Evangelicals! Or as some say Neo-Evilgelicals.

    No joke one person commented, “but we will be competing with them for people.”

    It is so driven down into the DNA of IFB that all christians are wicked it is amazing.

  15. Isolationalism comes from a combination of two things.
    ➡ First one must be dominated by fear. Rather then doing what one can to avoid temptation and trusting in the power of the Holy Spirit to grow more mature in Christ and put to death the old man; the isolationlist views sin as an overpowering plague that will overthrow any believer. The only hope is to huddle in fear and hope none of the evil (often called ‘leaven’) gets them.
    ➡ Seconly, the isolationalist must be dominated by pride. The plague in question is, thankfully (in their mind at least) a plague existing without. Despite the Biblical use of ‘flesh’ as a basically internal enemy, the isolationalist thinks of the flesh as only active when triggered by an external stimulus. The rest of the world may be steeped in sin and wickedness, but they alone stand as the last hope and bastion of righteousness in this world. Their position is precarious, but if they continue to stand in the gap between all they hold dear and all the people in the world (that Jesus died for) then they just might make it.

    Bonus: This isolationalist train of thought conveniently discredits all those who would dare disagree with us by sheer virtue of them not being us.

  16. Blessed Isolation (to the tune of Blessed Assurance with apologies to Fanny Crosby and Phoebe Knapp)

    Blessed Isolation
    We’re all on our own.
    We don’t need liberals
    We’ll go it alone.
    Fundamental Baptist
    We always shall be
    Holy and separate
    For all to see.

      1. cordovan & Natalie, that was beautiful.

        I always liked that song so I don’t mind if it gets stuck in my head today. I’ll just have to remember the new lyrics. 😀

  17. My husband and I chose to send our kids to public school. Because of our decision I get asked at least once a month when I am going to homeschool my kids. Or they ask where do your kids go to school at, again. When I tell them they look sad and say “oh”. I just have to laugh at the silliness of it all so I don’t get angry.

    1. When fundies questioned my decisions like that, I always told them with a smile (but firmly!) that “This is what God wants me to do,” which a lot of people couldn’t argue with. (I’m sure there are plenty of ppl out there that might, but I never met anyone gutsy enough to do so.) They would smile doubtfully and drop it. Worked for me.

      1. Actually I take that back. When I was at Bob Jones seeking to transfer out, my guidance counselor told me to my face that it wasn’t God’s will for me to leave. Like she had any idea what God wanted me to do.

        1. Recent discussion between my husband and his dad re: a decision hubby had made that his dad didn’t like.

          Husband: I’m just following the Lord’s leading.
          Dad: That’s what YOU say.

          😥

        2. My fiance met quite a bit of resistance when she transferred from BJU, including an “advisor” cheerfully telling her that God didn’t want her to leave. She left anyway. Love that girl.

        3. And how exactly did she know what gid’s will for you is? Last I checked, it wasn’t in the rule book. But then again, it could be in the one with all the unwritten rules. 😐

        4. Have our own way, Lord
          Have our own way
          We have the rules to keep you at bay
          When you seek your own will we do know
          You are out of God’s will, this we do know

  18. In response to the OP…

    SInce we are highlighting irony in the fundy mentality tied to eschatology…

    What about the supporting of all of these organizations trying to repatriate Jews to Israel…. where they can be massacred by the ANTI-Christ after we’ve been raptured out? Sure, Pastor Haggee, I’ll pay for two Russian Jews to be flown to Israel in time for the massacre…

    🙂

    1. I think John Hagee just wants to bring on the carnage, I’ve never seen that guy smile.

      If point A is our present reality, and point C is the Rapture, followed by The Tribulation and assent of the Anti-Christ, then various Fundies will get their followers worried about point B. Which would be whatever else could happen between now and the Rapture. Things like a Gog-Magog skirmish on Israel (which might or might not happen before the Rapture), losing children to the World, seeing other churches and Christians getting “too worldly” and ultimately lost to The World, dubious claims of the development of a One-World currency, government and religion etc. Hence the “hunker down” (“bunker”) mentality that people have described here.

      Of course, when discussing eschatology, many Fundies will talk out both sides of their mouths, and say that the Rapture is any moment now, and claim a simple Point A (the present) – Point B (The Rapture) paradigm. But they can’t resist speculating on too many things, that become factors in a Point A-B-C interpretation of prophecy. Point B standing for bad stuff leading to bad experiences, thus creating serious concern for the near future and ultimately control because no one really knows what measure of “suffering”, but really disappointment they will experience on Earth.

      Even after Hagee repatriate thousands of Jews, he will still have to wait, even he knows there is no way to magically prompt The Rapture, after he has done as much as we could, he will have to ask “Now What?”

      Also, I believe that man wants to attack Iran, which is a scary prospect if he becomes influential in this matter.

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