Scientific “Proof”

(I know I’ve been posting a lot of videos recently. Once I recover from whatever this plague is from which I am suffering, I’ll get back to actually writing again. In the meantime, please pass me a tissue and a gallon jug of Nyquil)

498 thoughts on “Scientific “Proof””

  1. Basically all I hear as he is talking is the idea that music is all about preference. He keeps saying that your musical style makes you the person that you are. In that case listening to his style of music must make you a pompous d-bag who likes to preach his personal preferences and make up random proof texts that seem to make him sound correct, even though practically everyone that he is preaching to already believes the same thing that he is saying.

  2. I think it is true that you can tell about a person by the music they listen to. Based on the songs in my iPod:

    Keith Green, Amy Grant, Scott Wesley Brown: became a Christian in the late 70’s

    Lots of Classic Rock: must be in my late 40’s

    Jimmy Buffett: middle aged white guy

    Very little 80’s and 90’s music: Fundy during the 80’s and 90’s

    Casting Crowns, Chis Tomlin: evangelical Christian

    Reggae: Don’t worry ’bout a thing

    This is fun! :razz: :smile:

    1. Like!

      When an 80s song comes on the radio, I’ll tell my daughter, “This song was popular when I was a teen.” But then I add, “But I didn’t hear it until about ten years later because I wasn’t allowed to listen to anything except classical music and hymns.”

      1. I’m pretty ignorant of the popular music of the late 80s, the 90s, and of this century. Why? That’s when I was most thoroughly fundy.

        Fortunately, my husband has had a wide and very eclectic taste for music, so I wasn’t just listening to classical (some of which I find both boring and repetitive). The problem is, I can’t talk music with my kids. At all. I have no idea who the current popular musicians/groups are.

        Though it was really funny to find that the newly rebuilt McDonald’s near us uses the music I grew up with on their muzak. Made me feel comfortable and a little bit young again.

    2. My moral downfall was during Bible College when I purchased a cassette Walkman and Phil Collins and caught several trains to see a Christian girl with a less than stellar reputation….priceless.

    1. Josh: Do you know about the Scorpions’ “Moment of Glory” CD? I used the beginning of “Winds of Change”. The first minute-ish is all symphonic instrumental. I cut that last note of the prelude right before the electric guitar kicked in. It was perfect. Everyone loved it, and only a few people had any clue what that lovely music really was.

      (If my sister-in-law ever reads this, I am up a creek. She has zero tolerance for anything amusing at weddings. Even my white Doc Martens were too much for her.)

        1. Here’s a live performance. (Warning to Fundamentalist lurkers: Definitely uncheckable music after 1:33. Before then, hey, enjoy the tune. :smile: )

  3. John,

    I think fundamentalism is severely fucked and so are you. It’s great to be a free man–you can rant all you want–I find it amusing!!!

  4. Josh, so glad you brought up Yes. Just today I was playing Steve Howe licks I learned in the ’70s! When I was 17 I was listening to the live “Siberian Khatru” solo when I said to myself, “Okay, there must be a God. This reaches my soul!” That was a giant leap toward my responding to the gospel when I heard it for the first time two years later. (And if you ever do hear of a Christian prog band, lemme know!)

  5. Lizzy,

    I believe you misunderstand my posts.

    I am NOT arguing that the art song or pop song is not important. But you would have to be delusional to say that a 2 minute art song, by even the best composer, can legitimately compete with a symphony by another great composer. That is akin to saying a sketch by Picasso (a titan among painters) and a painting by Rembrandt (another titan) are somehow able to be judged on the same level. It is simple not fair to Picasso.

    Hugo Wolf was a wonderful composer… a genius even. But he did NOT distinguish himself in any other form but the song. Look closely at the other composers that distinguished themselves in song form (Vaughn Williams, Debussy, Schubert, Brahms, Schumann, etc.) You will find that these men also were masters of larger forms. And I would further argue that it is based mainly on their mastery of these bigger forms that gives us the ability to rank them so highly. Their body of work is simply better and more varied than a Hugo Wolf.

    Chopin is also not “ranked” as highly as he could be because of his confining himself almost exclusively to the piano. Gershwin also gets similar arguments because, although he wrote in larger forms (although very few) his way of manipulating his material is inferior to that of some of the above mentioned composers. Its a simple fact. As a composer myself, I have the insight to investigate just why the so-called “experts” believe this about Wolf and Gershwin and Chopin, and I agree with them.

  6. I love how these music discussions always degenerate into this “which is better” round robin. ::yawn::

    The scientistic language that Garlock dons is ridiculous and oh-so-typical. He’s just blowing smoke — trying to sound smart. It’s actually makes me sweat.

    The inerrancy argument from 100 years ago was trying to do the same thing. To make our study of the Bible be able to stand up against scientific discourse. I’m not saying the Bible isn’t without error per se. That’s not the point. The point is that we did back then what Garlock is doing here . . . . But Garlock’s stupider.

    I also wanted to comment because I think I am a John-post-killer. . . . You’re welcome.

  7. Did anyone notice the woman in the audience bobbing her head to both versions of the Hallelujah Chorus? I guess she likes both styles. Probably secretly listens to AC/DC. :smile:

  8. Next time before you go off all half cocked,

    John you don’t even know what that means. I wasn’t half cocked I was fully locked and loaded and meant every word I said. So don’t patronize me.

    Without any need to give my opinion, your words speak for themselves.

    Good, then I won’t have to repeat myself.

    Resorting to name calling and chidlish insults again are you? Have I ever done this to anybody ever on this site?

    And I’m the bully?

    See I knew you couldn’t help yourself, now you are the poor martyr. Fundy preachers can’t help it. They crave the attention of even the slightest persecution; your egos are drawn to playing the martyr like a moth to the flame. You are so predictable.

    Why do you resort to such slander and then think you are holier than thou for doing so? It’s admittance that you have no argument, only assaults.

    -If I have slandered you get a lawyer.
    -I claimed I was holier than thou?? When? Where? Show your proof. Of course we know this can't be true because you constantly remind us we are just mere sheeple in comparison to you John. Should I genuflect now?

    And , you are still excusing such attitudes and actions….including your own.

    Oh no, I don’t need an excuse. An excuse would presuppose I needed a cover for my actions. I stand on every word I have said and my actions have been very purposeful in answering your insufferable egotistical crap.

    I am sure you are leading people to God by the droves with your mean spirited, insulting and hateful bitterness toward Him and His word.

    -Ok, John back that statement up. Time to put up or shut-up. Other than my stand against your condesending pratter show me where I am hateful and bitter towards God and His word. (I wager the only examples you can produce are where I stand against your inflated and erroneous opinions.)
    -John, your argument is non sequitur. But you play the fundy pastor so well, especially since with your spiritual clairvoyance you can see the hearts of all you come in contact with and you know their relationship with God, dontcha John?

    Now that you have made yourself clear, after I gave you the benfit of the doubt, it is clear indeed and far, far sadder.

    Wow! Your ego is hyper-inflated John! You gave me the benefit of the doubt? You really are a sanctimonious prig. You can have your “benfit” back and george says you can keep the “e” as well.

    Pitiful you say? John from your attitude and the way you present yourself what is pitiful is that you are a pastor. You stand before a congregation of people and bend them to your will with emotional, spiritual and mental manipulation, if your actions here at SFL are any indicator of who you are. You exhibit an almost sociopathic denial that you are the problem. That is a hallmark of fundy men-o-god as well. You and men like you are the very reason many of us have left the IFB cult. You exhibit the marks of a cult leader and you can’t see it. Keep your pity and your prayer list. I would actually prefer if you would mark me off of your list altogether.

    1. @ Don: Thank you for being willing to say what most of us are thinking. And I, for one, laughed out loud when he said you were bitter toward God and His Word. How anyone could come to that conclusion from any of your posts is beyond me. I have always found your posts to be insightful and though provoking.

      “You can have your “benfit” back and george says you can keep the “e” as well.”

      :grin:

      1. I mostly lurk and don’t comment, but I applaud you, Don, for your well-written and thought-out comments.

        I feel like I’ve learned a lot from this site, from Darrel and the commenters – (PW, love you; Don, Reader Mo, LMcC, Scorpio, Rob M (because we can’t see the white piano), Camille, Bassenco (I have novels with your autograph :smile: ) – I shouldn’t have started the shout-outs b/c there’s too many to name) – a big one being that I don’t have to wallow in this confusion and hurt and pain from Fundy Land: it’s there. It happened. I can acknowledge that and by God’s grace, live in grace.

        I can’t wait to see where this discussion has gone in the time it’s taken me to write this . . .

        1. LOL So now I am a liar?

          What a great judge you are!

          I have no need or desire to use Don or anyone else here as “illustrations” and in fact, quite enjoy not thinking of SFL at all when I am not logged in. It’s on my favorites list right under Al Mohler.

          I do have a few on my prayer list, but none on my sermon notes.

    1. Well, I like his music, and Tubular Bells in particular, quite a lot, and I think it’s good. If you haven’t heard it, you should check out one of his latest recordings, “Music of the Spheres”. Full orchestra, very “classical” sounding, but still based on Tubular Bells sounding theme (as many of his compositions are).

      1. I really like his work. I would call myself a diverse eclectic when it comes to musical tastes. Bluegrass that I grew up on to Enya, Rock, immoral Jazz, Celtic, some old Rap and Hymns. My play lists are all over the map. There is some really beautiful music out there in all genres.

        1. Same here. I grew up on classical, did 2 degrees in piano, and taught for several years, and it’s still my first love, but a close second is film scores (they incorporate so many different styles!), and I love rock, Celtic, New Age (or as it should called “miscellaneous nice music”), some bluegrass, pop, symphonic metal, various international folk styles, many old hymns (pre-gospel song era), a very little rap, jazz, and country… There is so much wonderful music to enjoy, to fit any mood. In that nasty hypothetical, “Would you rather be blind or deaf?” (Um, neither. Duh!) I always say I’d rather be blind. I can’t imagine life without music.

    2. Creepy..which is why it was chosen for Exorcist–and I have played that for people who have never heard of the movie and they agree.

      Further proof or the “appropriate” argument.

      If you put words to this…even scripture…it would not be appropriate unless they were hellfire and brimstone verses.

      1. Creepy? Only in certain contexts.

        I didn’t see the movie, but I heard the music at Six Flags over Georgia. For some weird reason, it always seemed to be playing in a certain part of the park. For me, it holds no negative or creepy associations, other than being a total earworm.

  9. DON >”I was fully locked and loaded ”

    Wow. Then you really need real ammo instead of blanks. That would help. This does explain why you keep missing the targets though. :!:

    DON“Good, then I won’t have to repeat myself.”

    But you did anyway! :roll:

    You still can’t face the music Don, and now you run to claiming I have taken a martyr position???? I point out your lewdness, hypocrisy and weak “arguments” and you say that by doing so I play the martyr??
    Nice try. Still pitiful, but hey–when that’s all you’ve got, I guess you try anything.

    You sir, are so predictable. You repeatedly claim yourself “holier than thou” everytime you say that I do. Are you then saying you are less holier than I? See?
    (And before you resort to the old “Yeah, not by fundy standards, but….blah, blah, then realize that by any standards, is standards)

    As to why you would want to genuflect , I dunno. Whatever floats your boat Don.

    DON” I don’t need an excuse.”
    I’m sure you don’t Don, I’m sure you don’t.

    DON” show me where I am hateful and bitter towards God and His word.”

    You give plenty of evidence. Go back and read your posts to plenty of others –pretty much anyone who you disagree with.
    A few examples that come to mind with no need of searching…
    Your ridicule and use of “gid” (I know, I know, “George”‘s misspelling is your excuse, but there is no excuse for such disrespect to the name of God), also many of your posts that refer to the inspiration/preservation of His word show disdain for the very doctrine.
    I also notice you usually put God in intentional lowercase.

    DON(I wager the only examples you can produce are where I stand against your inflated and erroneous opinions.)

    You lose again! :wink:

    Then you go on about my discernment.

    But you see my heart dontcha Don?

    When I referred to you attitude and the way you present yourself that was wrong, but when you refer to mine, that’s perfectly okay? Riiiight.

    Darrell broke confidence and revealed my identity (because that’s okay if it’s the “opposition”) so you can attack me personally. Nice.

    I have not used my calling as any basis for my reasoning nor tried to pull rank or any such thing.
    You just don’t have any argument so you again resort to personal attacks again.

    You exhibit an almost sociopathic denial that you have any problems Don. I have aplogized more than one to individuals and the group when I go “too far”. This has genuinly grieved me and I am trying harder. You test me, but hey–that’s how that works.

    I don’t recall you ever apologizing for anything. Maybe I missed it.

    Your repeated resentment of Pastors is a common ingredient in your posts also Don. Your resentment of authority may have come over time or a trait of yours, but that is no excuse for attitudes and actions (as this thread was suppossed to be all about before you turned it personal).

    I love the people I pastor and do not fit your stereotype. But then, that messes up your bigotry doesn’t it?

    Then you go on to call me a cult leader.

    You do exhibit all the characteristics of someone who has been hurt Don….by themselves. Of course it’s all IFB fundyism’s fault not yours.
    It’s like when someone has been divorced 5 times and says it was all their ex’s fault(s). Sure.

    You practice all that you preach against…with a much harsher attitude.

    You rail and assail against and then cry foul when anyboy does anything similiar.

    When I came out of Reformed Thology I felt much the same as you I guess, and was easy to aggitate. I mocked and belittled with glee until I realized I was as bad or worse than what I fought. I do hope and pray you see this in your own reflection next time you look int he mirror Don.

    And though you would prefer if I would mark me off my prayer list , my love for you constrains me to keep you there.

    BTW Don’s totally personal attack against me has brought out “haymens” and “atta-boys” from some of you. What if I had done the same? What if I had mae one reply entirely a persoanl attack against someone here? Ask yourself this question.

        1. Oops! That was supposed to go below…..my mistake.

          …but it’s Okay RobM, Don doesn’t read all my posts either, and it doesn’t keep him form disagreeing.

        2. “You read those posts? I feel like I’m not missing anything skipping all but he very shortest of posts by Mr Keater”

          I usually find them good for a laugh or three. :grin:

        1. Interesting….if you want to insult your opponent, all you have is the nomenclature of the juvenile discourse of identity associations which is almost the exclusive providence of those on the liberal Left.

          “Birds of a feather” I suppose.

        2. You know John, I would never attend your church or direct anyone your way. I live in your state. You have so much time to spend here arguing and fighting, putting others down with passive aggressive, illogical ramblings that I wonder how much time you actually spend in Bible study. I’ve read almost all of your statements and you’ve done little to shine as a light for Christ on this site or do anything to recommend your ministry to anyone here. If you really cared to defend fundamentalism then you would show love and compassion to the people here instead of your arrogance and disdain for our past hurts and our reactions to them. Nothing you say to us is new, we’ve heard it all before. We’ve encountered fighting fundamentalists like you many times.

    1. You give plenty of evidence. Go back and read your posts to plenty of others –pretty much anyone who you disagree with.

      Give me an example John. I’ve been on here for quite a while so you should have no problem finding at least one example (at least one that is not aimed at you).

      You still can’t face the music Don, and now you run to claiming I have taken a martyr position???? I point out your lewdness, hypocrisy and weak “arguments” and you say that by doing so I play the martyr??
      Nice try. Still pitiful, but hey–when that’s all you’ve got, I guess you try anything.
      You sir, are so predictable. You repeatedly claim yourself “holier than thou” everytime you say that I do. Are you then saying you are less holier than I? See?
      (And before you resort to the old “Yeah, not by fundy standards, but….blah, blah, then realize that by any standards, is standards)

      A: I point out your lewdness, hypocrisy and weak “arguments”
      For the court please give one example for each of the accusations you have brought.
      1)my lewdness 2) my hypocrisy and 3) my weak “arguments”

      B: You sir, are so predictable. You repeatedly claim yourself “holier than thou” everytime you say that I do. Are you then saying you are less holier than I? See?

      (sidebar: please in the future use your own arguments and don’t just parrot what I say to you back to me. It will make it much more interesting if you could at least try to be original) For the record, PeeWee Herman’s, “I know you are but what am I” shtick is a bit lame at our age.

      DON” show me where I am hateful and bitter towards God and His word.”
      You give plenty of evidence. Go back and read your posts to plenty of others –pretty much anyone who you disagree with.
      A few examples that come to mind with no need of searching…
      Your ridicule and use of “gid” (I know, I know, “George”‘s misspelling is your excuse, but there is no excuse for such disrespect to the name of God), also many of your posts that refer to the inspiration/preservation of His word show disdain for the very doctrine.
      I also notice you usually put God in intentional lowercase.

      A: show me where I am hateful and bitter towards God and His word
      You never answered the question because 1) the “gid” reference was coined by neither george nor myself. If you understood the concept of SFL and you knew the source of that reference you would not have embarrassed yourself by using that one against me. Your parenthetical sermonette again shows your sanctimonious “holier than thou” attitude. (we know however, seeing that in yourself that is your “white piano” and you are blind to it.) Here is an absolute statement you will not be able to dispute with evidence from anywhere I post on the internet: You cannot find one example where I disrespect the name of the Almighty Creator God. You will find a multitude of examples where I totally disrespect and disregard the inept, anemic, weak, frail, phony Fundie god that is packed away in a box and is totally dependent on the actions of it’s followers to keep it’s religion alive. The pathetic god of the fundie imagination is not The great and terrible “I AM” of Scripture. The god of easy believism, numbers based evangelism and works sanctification is not the Sovereign God over all creation.
      B: also many of your posts that refer to the inspiration/preservation of His word show disdain for the very doctrine
      Since there are so many you should be able to find and produce at least one to back up your claim. I can’t defend against phantom accusations and imaginary charges.
      C: I also notice you usually put God in intentional lowercase
      No, what you see (as I just explained) is reference to the fundie god-in-a-box. The imaginary god that is proclaimed from the fundy bunkers.

      You exhibit an almost sociopathic denial that you have any problems Don. I have aplogized more than one to individuals and the group when I go “too far”. This has genuinly grieved me and I am trying harder. You test me, but hey–that’s how that works.

      (sidebar: You exhibit an almost sociopathic denial that you have any problems Don. Again that is my assertion regarding you, do I have to come up with all your arguments John? To turn it around and parrot it back to me is pathetic. Please be more original. )

      I’ll finish the rest of my rebuttal later. I really want to get to the meat of your accusations.

      1. Hey, I missed this one from earlier.

        I will wait for you to answer, though it ain’t looking worth the wait considering this one.

        1. And one last thing before I go……

          Anyone else notice how Don has made this all about ME?

          I guess I could be flattered that now I have a stalker, but not so.

          You obessesion with villifying me (and all authority figures it would seem)could give Dan all kinds of good psycho-analyzing fodder, but I digress.

          Look in the mirror Don.

          Aml517 made me think. Maybe I am just wasting my time with you. Not SFL, just you.

          You’re only goal seems to be to divert any discussion into a cdiscussion about me personally.
          I point out the silliness of your arguments by pointing them back at you, and all you can do is point at that fact—not the point, just the pointing.

          I don’t know what “fundy-ism” you came out of, but it must have been somehting else, and it sure hasn’t come out of you.

          As a former believer in De-oops-Re-formed Theology, you exhibit familiar character traits of five point fundy-ism, but that’s par for the course.

          Hope you enjoy Church services in the morning and don’t miss the message by obsessing over little ‘ol me.

        2. Oh, and when you answer my original posts questions (This was about music remeber?) I will answer yours.

          To refresh your memory John this is the response I replied to that began this odyssey. It had nothing to do with music and everything to do with your condesending response.

          John October 29, 2010 at 3:37 pm @Pastors wife

          Agreed about the backlash. I have contemplated star
          ting all over agin under a new name, but I wanted to see if I would be treated with grace and forgiveness after apologizing.

          Sad that so many have been hurt by their past (though it was good enough to lead you into the Kingdom to begin with)
          but I have lived long enough to see many who ran away (and into the arms of liberalism) see the rror of their ways and come back to common sense Chrsitianity.
          There is such a sense of bitterness against parents here that saddens me, though i am not surprised as I have seen what you say to be so in many cases.

          That doesnt justify the attitude or actions, but it explains it.

        3. Just showing specific examples of your inconsistencies John. Your attempts at deflecting the conversation, and not staying on topic are, again, predictable characteristics of a Fundie who 1. does not know how to argue a debate (ah la Ray Comfort/ Kirk Cammeron) 2. has no real response so he must never allow himself to actually be pinned down with an answer 3. never admits or accepts responsibility for his own actions.

        4. Spoken like the true Liberal that you are Rev. Don.

          See how easy it is?

          1. Ignore all issues and implications
          2. Insult and make the opponent the issue instead
          3. Claim victory where this is none and then gloat.

          And I appreciate the Ray Comfort comparisson. The similarity and familiarity of how he is attacked and treated by athiests is analagoous to my treatmnet by you.

          How was Church?

        1. Seriously. I don’t understand people who think say “liberal” like it’s a bad thing. Jesus, in his time, was a liberal. He challenged the traditional way of Jewish thinking, but he didn’t reject the Jewish tradition. So perhaps being liberal isn’t so bad after all. It’s all interpretation, like it or not.

        2. I no longer care about “liberal” or “conservative” labels when it comes to theology.

          All I care about is “God-honoring” and “hiding one’s own agenda behind God”. I have met God-honoring conservatives and liberals (shock to the fundamentalist lurkers, but it’s true!). I have met conservatives and liberals who use God only as a tool to further their own agendas.

          Yeah, it makes discerning the real deal a little tricky. Falling back on labels is easier, but I prefer taking that extra time to spot quality.

        3. The real issue is always whether the honor is real or not

          (Isa 29:13) “Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me”

        4. John: That’s what I said. I know you didn’t understand it that way (because somewhere you’ll come up with some verse that says it’s a sin to agree with anyone with a four-letter username or some other such poppycock), but that’s what I said.

          There’s a difference between truly God-honoring and those who simply use God to advance a personal agenda. Unfortunately, many Fundamentalists never learn this.

  10. This is an extremely important point! I’m the noise-level Nazi around here and it frustrates me to no end that other people just don’t take their hearing seriously. It’s like diabetics who refuse to even try to control their blood sugars even though they know all the potential complications, because those complications take many years to come to fruition. If we can’t *see* the damage right now, we refuse to do anything to prevent it.

  11. No brag, just fact Don.

    I was accused and I defended.

    You hate facts now too?

    And if my consistency is predictable, then so be it.

    What facts John? The fact of your inability to to get past your own ego? The fact that your best argument is to try and turn other’s statements around and parrot them back and claim victory? The fact that you have no love, no humility, no grace because you are so full of yourself and your need to be vindicated and right that you are blind to your own self-righteousness?

    I’ll put it to the group: Other than John is there anyone I have personally taken to task around here?

    1. You put this in the wrong place, but if you (or anybody reading) looks you will see that it refers to, and only to, the useage of insults.

      Your thin-skinned attacks are themselves the best arguments against you, so of course I quote them.
      That’s what makes you so angry, being called out on your own inconsistencies and baseless insults.

      Stings, doesn’t it?

      My righteousness is in Christ and nothing else, you keep bringing “self righteosness” as if that makes it so. I do not quote myself as an authority, but the Bible as the basis for my positions, something you do not do.

      As for taking your fan club to task, why would you?
      They are your flock right? You are their self appointed preacher.

      1. John, this is a diverse crowd, so I can’t speak for everyone, but what bothers me most about your manner here is that it’s disingenuous. Don says what he thinks. We interpret it based on the experiences we know he’s been through. He is who he is, so he’s easy to understand. Same with lots of other people here, even the ones who disagree with each other.

        But you are impossible to understand because you don’t seem to understand yourself. You squirm into whatever role suits your purposes at the moment.

        You put on your “Bible scholar” mask and sling proof texts to accuse people of Biblical illiteracy. You put on your “picture of innocence” mask to point out others’ hypocrisy. You bait people, then put on your “just joking” mask to try to make them look stupid for reacting to you. Then you put on your “worldy” mask to prove to us that you’re not “one of them.”

        I’m trying to help you see that to others, you appear slippery and manipulative. Don has integrity. He is always Don… unless he’s George. :smile: That’s why it’s easy to sympathize with him and not with you.

        I know people are multi-faceted, and it’s natural to be defensive when you feel pressured, but there’s more than that going on with you. I don’t know what it is, but I hope you stop flailing around and figure it out soon. If you’re not exhausted yet, you will be. I’m exhausted just watching you.

        1. I’ve found that people who fight hardest for whatever John is fighting for are, ultimately, very insecure. Either he is starting the process of realizing Fundyland is an operation in contradictions, and he can’t quite bring himself to accept that yet; or, he doesn’t realize that God is bigger than any of our concepts and ideas, including his. He uses a self-righteous tone, throws in a Bible verse or two and talks down to anyone, especially the men, who disagree with him. (Have you noticed he doesn’t respond to the women?) I have no problems with anybody stating their musical preferences. That’s not what Garlock has done. Garlock has attempted, very poorly, to make his preference and God-ordained standard and used creation as “scientific proof” of his preference. This is not only stupid, but blasphemous to Almighty God.

        2. Pita,

          “disingenuous”
          How could you possibly know this? Your armchair psychology is really interesting, since you say I cant be understood.

          Don says I am “predictable” and you say just the opposite. One of you is worng, or both of you are wrong.

          Don doesnt discuss, he interupts adiscussion I was having with RobM to insult and have a temper tantrum.

          This, is okay and you sympathize with him.

          An athiest and a homsexual post (and attack me repeatedly) and no one tries to help them or correct them, but I am ganged up on and rebuked.

          The point is proved AGAIN that most here have not stopped being “fundy”–they have just changed what they consider the fundamentals.

          Now they bully based on liberal interetations instead of conservative.

          Still stubborn.
          Still judgemental.

          It has been very revealing.

          It’s become “Stuff We Like To Laugh At Fundies About Because We are better Than them”

          Trading white shirts and long skirts for tight jeans and NIVs doesnt make you less a fundy in mentality. Its just chaning the rules.
          Now it’s “All rules are bad-that’s the rule”

          Don

          Whatever point you were trying to make is obviously totally misguided and incorrect, as Bassenco and I have had more discussions here than any- beyond a doubt. Not to mention Pastors wife and LmcC (Not sure if male or female)

          So whatever you were trying to prove, proves more about you.

        3. My “predictible” and Pita’s “disingenuous” are not diametrically opposed in your case. You exhibit all the qualities of a fundie m-o-g and that makes your disingenuous role changing predictible.

        4. *sigh*

          Pita said “you are impossible to understand “
          that was what was opposite your “predictable” claims…not the disengenous part.

          Pay attention Don!

        5. “Understand” was too vague a term. I should have used one of the following synonyms for more clarity: appreciate, accept, identify with, sympathize with, tolerate.

        6. @John, I think what Pita has said is true. They are not just *wrong*, the things that you do, they are consistently inconsistent and downright *odd*. This also reminds me of the whole “LOL” misplacement thing that I’ve noticed with fundies (mostly fundies, though I’m sure there are other types of people that do this).

          For me, it’s just that you aren’t making any sense at all in any way, and you jump around while responding to other people. I remember seeing this on other websites where someone was “responding” to a more “liberal” (read: normal) person. The fundy, much like you, seemed to swing between feeling that he should trumpet his desire to show “love and kindness” and making sarcastic, harsh, childish, or personal remarks that were just terrible.

          I would have more respect for you if you had been consistent, you know? If you had said (and lived!) out a more consistent worldview, as in “I disagree with you all, but I will be kind and remember that you are viewing everything through the cracked lense of your unfortunate experiences,” I could have not minded as much. I know plenty of people who are wayyy more conservative than I, but still garner my respect. But you have swung between playing “nice pastor man” and “sarcastic troll man.” It’s not working, John. Sometimes I even get the feeling that you don’t even believe the things you post. That you would like to “join” the ex-fundies in here, and have your story be told, too. I don’t know why you do not, to be honest. I think people would respond to that kind of vulnerability with more compassion than you think.

          Anyways, just my two cents for you.

        7. “An athiest and a homsexual post (and attack me repeatedly)and no one tries to help them or correct them…”

          Scorpio, I think we’re being singled out. Or is that doubled out. Anyway.
          Speaking for myself, I grew up with the Bible and and know what it says and how certain passages have been interpreted. I have no need for someone like you to “help or correct” me. Obviously, most people here recognize that. Instead of bashing me for being gay or Scorpio for being an atheist, they simply post ideas that have helped them and tell of their own experiences with finding God outside of fundyism. Again, speaking for myself, figuring out who I am and that God allowed me to born this way (don’t care if you disagree!) is what drove me from fundamentalism, but what drove me initially away from God altogether (I’m agnostic now but tentatively headed toward Him), is people like you. If you’re a representative (even in a fallen state) of what God is like and what He wants his children to act like, then I’ll run as far as I can the other way, consequences be damned. However, the many posts on many subjects I’ve read by Don, Bassenco, Pastors Wife, RobM, Mark Rosedale, Reader Mo, Darrell, Camille, and many others demonstrate a much different picture of a God for Whom I think my heart still desires. I see His work and grace in their lives and that is enough. Why should they hound me away with much “help and correct(ion)” even though most will disagree with my views. I, in turn, do not take it upon myself to constantly question or ridicule their views with which I might disagree. But when I read almost any of your posts, I just get the feeling that any real Truth is being strangled by your insistence that you are right and that everything you say is backed by the Bible, even though you don’t cite it nearly as much as you seem to think.
          So take from one who is something of an outsider. Spend less time arguing and baiting people and more time reflecting what God is doing in your own life, if anything. It’s often hard to tell…

        8. @Diachenko Unreal, that that was actually said, but there’s an old wise saying that “noone cares how much you know, till they know how much you care”, not that John has demonstrated all that much knowledge (although he clearly thinks he does), but even the Scriptures tell you that knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. IDK what John feels like he needs to be defended from, I hadn’t seen anyone trying to play gay footsy with him, and it’s not like his persecution complex isn’t showing. :)

        9. PS Resistance and pushback is not an attack, and does not qualify anyone for the Martyr of the Year award.

        10. @Diachenko — God bless you, D. God bless you. We both know how hard it is to live in this town as a fundamentalist. . . . but it’s harder to live here as a former fundy. But we’re here. Whatchagonnado? I personally think the not-caring about what everyone thinks is the biggest accomplishment. I mean, I’ve wanted to be at that place for a long time, but I’m just starting to actually be at that place. Took a long time. . . .

          So bravo for your boundary-setting words up above! :)

        11. Diachenko says

          “However, the many posts on many subjects I’ve read by Don, Bassenco, Pastors Wife, RobM, Mark Rosedale, Reader Mo, Darrell, Camille, and many others demonstrate a much different picture of a God”

          And THAT folks really says it all and sums up precisely what I have been saying all along!

          Di is right, it is a different God, a different God than the scripture presents. Regardless of what I say (And there has been no discussion here on Homosexuality that I recall-yet Di recognized though that “Don, Bassenco, Pastors Wife, RobM, Mark Rosedale, Reader Mo, Darrell, Camille, and many others” clearly presnt a different God than the Bible does….not just fundamentalism . This may not be so , but it does come across so to Di. How does that make y’all feel?)

          Notice also that Di then is applauded for this interpretation.

          Is this what you were going for Darrell? A place where this is seen to be the consensous?

          REAL love cares enough to tell the truth. A doctor who cares is willing to use the needle and scapel when necessary.
          A loving God made a real Hell that Di is going to if they do not turn to Christ. Note: “loving”.

          Jesus made fun of the Pharisees, fine…I have enjoyed doing that here too (Schaap and others) but it has turned to making fun of fundamentalism….not “fundies” traditions, manners, but actual belief in Bible truths.

          Athiests and homosexuals love it, Bible belivers are not welcome.

          Herein has become a forum of fundamentalism bashing, and a place of comfort to the Christ denier and abominable.

          Who use you all as support of their sinful beliefs.

          (And since Don is applauded for his upfront and honest opinions and ability to be bold, surely I will as well, right? :roll: )

          The evidence speaks for itself.

        12. The Lord Rebuke you John.
          You perceive God’s love and God’s grace as a spoon perceives the taste of food. You and you alone know your god and everyone else must worship the god in your box or they are going to hell. You sancitmonious prig! You are the posterchild for the IFB cult and you can’t see it in yourself. No love, no compassion… and you claim to represent Christ to the world around you? You self-centered puss bucket!

        13. “And THAT folks really says it all and sums up precisely what I have been saying all along!
          Di is right, it is a different God, a different God than the scripture presents.”

          *Palm smacks forehead* How does your head not explode from being so puffed up? It is truly staggering how full of yourself you are. Perhaps when several admitted Christians who study the Bible carefully (as you also claim to do) come to a different view of God and find some consensus about it, you might have to admit that your own view is flawed and wrong. I realize that you are probably incapable of that, which is sad. The God that you talk about and preach about isn’t interested in saving, healing, and helping people any more than you are. It’s all about attacks, being right, and judging. You would have made a great member of the Spanish Inquisition. The others here seem to have been able to cut through all the layers of crap that fundies like you have piled on over the years and have discovered the real God that the Bible reveals, one who revels in His Grace and extending it to undeserving humans through His Son.
          So get this through your impossibly thick head John. It is your version of God (the one we often refer to as god, or gid) that is unscriptural and powerless to do anything but attract bullies like you.

        14. Yes, John, it *is* a different God. Have you ever considered that you are the one with the wrong view of God? I mean, actually humbly and prayerfully *considered* it?

        15. Then all the atheists and homosexuals drew near to the blog to join in the conversation. And John and the “Bible-believers” murmured, saying, “these former fundies receive sinners and graciously converse with them!”
          ~ (a paraphrase of Luke 15:1-2)

        16. Dianchenko – I think we were singled out! :shock: What in the wide wide world of internets is going on when both an athiest and a homosexual post comments on a blog! :lol:
          Not only do we post here, but in John’s words we “…attack me repeatedly”. I guess we are guilty of fundy bashing?? By that logic, since I am responding to you Di, I am attacking you.
          I wonder who makes John’s skin crawl more, me or you. And this is what gets me, he does not see how he is being judgmental. It isn’t sufficient that he just states that he is being attacked, no he has to classify his “attackers”. It’s like our discussion holds less merit because of who we are. Phht!

        17. You know, John, if you read a lot of books, you might just discover how gnostic your faith is. Start with anything by Walter Wink. His “Engaging the Powers” changed my world view. Then move on to Marcus Borg. If those are too “liberal” for you, try Steve Brown’s “Key Life” podcasts. Even read R. C. Sproul (he’s too conservative for me). Read Bob Bixby’s blog – he’s a closer to your theology. Read Richard Foster (conservative Quaker). When you really begin to discover that “it” really is all about God, you’re off to a good start. People like Bob Jones, Jack Schaap, Arlis Horton can’t hold a candle to these people.

        18. “Am I . . . become your enemy because I tell you the truth?” (Galatians 4:26)

          The Gospel message (regardless of who preaches it faithfully) will always be a threat to people losing their sense of entitlement to living the life they have chosen to live. Athiest, Sodomite or legalist.

          “If any man preach any other Gospel than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:9)

          They do not want to look beyond (inside) the exterior shell, to be seen as foundationally weak, attitudinally selfish and hurtful, and morally bankrupt.
          Not to mention that beneath the veneer of loving and caring is an incisive heart that holds great amounts of hatred and jealousy for people, principles, and things.
          Jesus says that inside the whited sepulchers are dead men’s bones and deep resentments. That’s why the Bible warns us to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith — tp look into that coffin of a body we call home and see what‘s really there.

          They said to Isaiah: “. . . prophecy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophecy deceits.” (Isaiah 30:10)

        19. @Don

          To quote Ronald Reagan “There you go again…”

          Resorting to schoolyard taunts and insults. Thanks for making my case easier to see.

          :cool:

          “I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20)

        20. @Scorpio

          Who said I don’t think I’m judgemental?

          I openly admit it.

          YOU however do not.

          The Lord Jesus Christ commanded “judging”: “Judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24)
          In (John 7:43) He told a man, “Thou hast rightly judged”
          In (Luke 12:57) the Lord asked, “Why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?”
          1 Corinthians 10:15 “I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say” ().
          The Lord Jesus Christ commended Peter in Luke 7:43 for “judging” and Jesus Christ said Simon was “right” for judging: “And he said unto him, Thou hast RIGHTLY judged” (Luke 7:43).

          Then in 1 Cor 2:15 “But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, ….” So, it is our positive duty to judge.

          “The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.” (Psa. 37:30)

        21. “The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.” (Psa. 37:30)

          >
          Well, that disqualifies you John. Scripture says “The mouth of the Righteous,” not, “The mouth of the selfrighteous.”

        22. @ John: “They do not want to look beyond (inside) the exterior shell, to be seen as foundationally weak, attitudinally selfish and hurtful, and morally bankrupt.
          Not to mention that beneath the veneer of loving and caring is an incisive heart that holds great amounts of hatred and jealousy for people, principles, and things.
          Jesus says that inside the whited sepulchers are dead men’s bones and deep resentments. That’s why the Bible warns us to examine ourselves whether we be in the faith — tp look into that coffin of a body we call home and see what‘s really there.”

          You were looking in the mirror when you said this, right? I couldn’t have summed you up any better than you did for yourself.

          Oh, and now I see that you’ve broadened your knowledge of homosexual fundy-speak to call me a Sodomite. I prefer Greenvillian, since that’s where I actually live. :mrgreen:

        23. @ Scorpio: “By that logic, since I am responding to you Di, I am attacking you.”

          Help! Help! The atheist is assaulting me! :mrgreen:

          “I wonder who makes John’s skin crawl more, me or you. And this is what gets me, he does not see how he is being judgmental. It isn’t sufficient that he just states that he is being attacked, no he has to classify his “attackers”. It’s like our discussion holds less merit because of who we are. Phht!”

          Oh you know the fundies: no respector of persons when the heathen are involved. Atheist, homosexual, witch doctor, liberal, feminist, Catholic, person who isn’t as conservative as they should be, readers of the NIV…
          Of course, if being atheist or gay means we have nothing of value to contribute, there’s an awful lot of art, music, literature, architecture, TV and radio programs, movies, sporting events, church building programs, Bible printers and publishers, and the like that will have to rebuffed. Why even King James himself and all the things he supported and sponsored would have to be denounced. Too bad for that rather obscure 1611 Bible translation…

        24. Di,

          Now THAT is a “I know you are but what am I “ grande! LOL

          Quote most of my post , then say “Yeah you musta been looking in a mirror”

          Genius :roll:

          And Di, I didn’t call you a Sodomite, I referred to them in general, but if the shoe fits…..

          “sod·om·ite (s d -m t ). n. One who engages in sodomy. “
          http://www.thefreedictionary.com/sodomite

        25. What john, can’t you handle it when someone turns your accusations back on you? You do it all the time. Oh! When you do it, it’s good tactics but when it’s done to you, then, it’s sophomoric.

        26. John said “Now THAT is a “I know you are but what am I “ grande! LOL”

          Not really, it’s more of a “Take the beam out of your own eye before attempting to take the speck out of another’s,” but I wouldn’t expect you to know the difference.

          “And Di, I didn’t call you a Sodomite, I referred to them in general, but if the shoe fits……”

          Right. Sure, whatever. But I’m not sure that shoes are the correct apparel in this case.

        27. No Don, when I do it, I am accurate, when Di tries it, it is amateurish and inaccurate, making her/his case weaker, not stronger.

        28. Diachenko

          Mat 7:1-2 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
          For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

          Jesus didn’t say ” It is never right to judge.”
          The Lord Jesus Christ commanded “judging”: “Judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24)

          It is a warning against HYPOCRITICAL judgment, not against BIBLICAL judgement.

          If I smoke, I must quit before telling you to quit.

          same chapter a few verses later, vs 5
          Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and THEN SHALT thou see clearly TO CAST OUT the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

          One whole book of the Bible is titled Judges!

          The book of Proverbs is full of admonitions about listening to reproof and how a wise man accepts correction.

          When you criticize and the answer is simply “stop being judgmental”, the accuser isn’t being biblical.

          John 12:48 “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

        29. No Don, when I do it, I am accurate, when Di tries it, it is amateurish and inaccurate, making her/his case weaker, not stronger.</blockquote)
          John I believe you really do believe that. What a hyper-inflated ego you have there John. I can see why you want to be a pastor. Your gianormous ego has to be fed and you have found the perfect vocation that will stroke your ego three time a week. I'll bet pastor appreciation day pumps you up to a euphoric high that is hard to come down from. You are an attention junkie John. I have met one of your brothers before, it got so out of hand with him he destroyed his ministry, his family and his life and is now sitting in prison. Seriously John you need to get some help.

        30. John said, “No Don, when I do it, I am accurate, when Di tries it, it is amateurish and inaccurate, making her/his case weaker, not stronger.”

          And the award for “Narcissist of the Year” goes to *drumroll* John M. Keeter!

        31. “The book of Proverbs is full of admonitions about listening to reproof and how a wise man accepts correction.”

          Well then, you are clearly not a wise man. Not there has been any doubt over the last few months.

        32. @ Scorpio: “By that logic, since I am responding to you Di, I am attacking you.”

          Help! Help! The atheist is assaulting me!

          Diachenko – Stop attacking me! :mrgreen:

        33. Forgive me for feeding the troll, but I have to speak up about this one:

          “REAL love cares enough to tell the truth. A doctor who cares is willing to use the needle and scalpel when necessary.”

          I am a doctor. And yes, there are times when a needle and scalpel are necessary. But when they are misapplied, it is bad medicine, it is cruel, and it is harmful.

          A fractured bone can be a serious problem. Sometimes you do need a needle to put in numbing medicine to set it. Sometimes you need to pull out the scalpel to do surgery to pin it.

          What you don’t see(won’t? can’t? I dunno), John, is that you’re pulling out the scalpel and needle for the nondisplaced radial buckle fracture while telling the compound tibial fracture to just walk it off.

          It’s bad medicine. And bad medicine doesn’t heal anybody. :cry:

        34. (Matt 9:12-13) “But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
          But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

          A Pastor verses (by using verses)a bully, an Athiest, and two Homosexuals -obviouslly the two unbelievers are expert spiritual physicians and the Pastor is eeeeeeevil.

          No response at all against their defense of sin, but time is spent to attack me.

          :roll:

          (Am I the only one who is thinking about the late 80’s song “Your love is like bad medicine…bad medicine is what I need, whoah oh oh”? -Not any more :wink: )

    2. Beckyboo

      Thank you for your two cents …..and showing Don that discussion can be done without schoolyard taunts and insults.

      The inability of posters here to pigeon hole me causes much frustratation because I do not fit the mold you all have made.

      I am a fundamentalist, but not a “fundy” according to your definitions. Because I do not fit in the box I am accused of being “disengenuous”

      If I were, then I would NOT be honest and give my honest opinions. I have openly criticized some of the same things you do here, and do not

      Yous ay I am “odd”–as opposed to what?

      My “LOL” is genuine…I laugh here alot.

      I do NOT always disagree with you all, and constantly point out how many of you you are indeed viewing everything through the cracked lense of your unfortunate experiences.

      If I didn’t believe the things I post, I wouldn’t post them.

      You attempt to claim I am hiding my inner desires to leave fundamentalism is a familar farce. As stated, I am not guilty of many of the things I am accused of here, and when I say so upfront, I am aused of insincerity, lying or being “odd”

      I appreciate your pointing this out.

      1. The inability of posters here to pigeon hole me causes much frustratation because I do not fit the mold you all have made.
        I am a fundamentalist, but not a “fundy” according to your definitions. Because I do not fit in the box I am accused of being “disengenuous”

        Actually, disingenuousness is one of the biggest things in the box. It’s one of the things that gave you away before anyone even knew who you were.

        If I were, then I would NOT be honest and give my honest opinions. I have openly criticized some of the same things you do here, and do not

        It’s not agreement or disagreement with people that makes you disingenuous. It’s not even inconsistency of opinion – most people here are still working through things, which is completely normal. I’m not sure how to make you understand what I mean by disingenuous: tricky, strained, artful, evasive, guileful. It encompasses more than just disagreement, insults and bad attitudes. It’s the kind of person who puts on a show to elicit certain reactions from people but who doesn’t have any real strength behind the facade. It’s the kind of person who, when attacked, instantly uses the “I’m rubber you’re glue” defense instead of weighing out the criticism and benefiting from it.

        You seem desperate to justify something here, but it isn’t God, it isn’t the Gospel, it isn’t the Bible, and it isn’t even fundamentalism. It’s yourself (your rightness, your Bible knowledge, your humility, your “normalness,” your willingness to apologize, all the ways you don’t fit into a mold, how you’re being treated unfairly, how everything wrong with you is someone else’s fault, how far superior your moral compass is, that whatever you may be guilty of – everyone else is guilty of worse). I think the only things you haven’t tried to make a show of are your reading comprehension and spelling skills.

        One shining example of this is the fact that you whine about the being mistreated even after you’ve apologized. If your apologies were genuine repentance instead of a ploy to manipulate others’ reactions, then that mistreatment wouldn’t matter to you.

        You can snap back and point the finger at everyone else as much as you want to, but it only demonstrates a lack of integrity; if your character is dependent on everyone around you being perfect, then it’s far too fragile.

        It bothers you that people call you self-righteous, but your constant self-justification make it difficult for people to think of you in any other way. If you really are claiming Christ’s righteousness instead of your own, then “…only if everyone else gets perfect and stops picking on me first!” is not a valid response to criticism.

        1. I gotta agree with John about homosexuality. I have a gay uncle whom I love very much, but he still lives a sinful lifestyle by choice. I will never judge him nor talk bad about him, but his lifestyle is sinful.

        2. *wild applause for Pita* Thank you!

          BTW, I think it’s funny that John is trying to pretend he doesn’t know whether I’m male or female. What do I have to do, post in neon pink or something?

          Let’s help out poor John, OK. Let’s go through things I have clearly said here.

          1) I live in Tennessee.
          2) I came here as a single person.
          3) I am married.
          4) I have a husband.
          5) I care deeply about women’s issues in the church.

          While #5 merely increases the chance I have XX chromosomes, the first four taken together should prove I’m female since gay marriage is not legal in Tennessee. (Yes, Janis Ian and her spouse live here; but they got hitched in Canada.)

        3. LmcC

          John is not trying to pretend he doesn’t know whether you are male or female. I did not know.

          I scan the responses here, but it’s rare that people mention “husband” and “wife” et. and I certainly don’t recall seeing this from you before. Your name LmcC could be either, so I had no way of knowing this, or what state you lived in.

          Sorry if this somehow offended you.

        4. @AvgJoe
          The issue for me is how to view God. The IFB says God is small and we have to help him, if not do everything for him. With that view one becomes a modern crusader who takes on the sin in society and tries to “clean” everyone up and then drag them into the church.

          The other view of God is that He is the Sovereign God of the universe. He did not charge us with cleaning up society and the sin in society. He never said, “you sinner, go and straighten out those other sinners.” All He said is “You will be a witness for me… and go and make disciples.”
          It is not my place to attack the life style of someone and call them a sinner. The Pharasees did that and they received the strongest rebuke for Jesus. The realization is that I too am a sinner and if I got what I deserved all I would get would be an eternity in hell. So I am to show the Love of Christ to those I come in contact with. We are all sinners, and it takes a work of God’s grace in our hearts to change us… the ravings of a rabid fundie screaming “Turn or Burn” only serves to further alienate those who need Christ most… as well as make all of Christendom look foolish and something to be avoided.

      2. “An athiest and a homsexual post (and attack me repeatedly) and no one tries to help them or correct them, but I am ganged up on and rebuked.”
        Here’s where I jump in. Can atheists and homosexuals never be right, never have a valid point? According to you we should disregard people’s opinions because of their belief system or their (God-given and natural) sexual orientation. I don’t think you can even spell “arrogant”, you couldn’t spell “atheist” or “homosexual.” Add “trans woman” to the list of your persecutors. :roll:

        1. There are plenty of typos in each of our responses, and my spelling isn’t usually so atrocious. Not that it makes any difference at all.

          Also, is a “trans woman” like a “Transformer”? Are you going Autobot or Decepticon?

        2. Apparently you’ve never heard of wikipedia or even google. Or you completely lack respect. Either way, I’m not amused.

        3. “A trans woman (sometimes trans-woman or transwoman) is a male-to-female (MTF) transsexual or transgender person ”

          See: “Confused”

        4. It’s not a failed attempt at humor, it’s his standard and completely successful attempt at classlessneess.

        5. How’s this?

          (Matthew 19:4) “And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female

          Now you can argue against Jesus!

        6. @Faith

          “Can atheists and homosexuals never be right, never have a valid point? According to you we should disregard people’s opinions because of their belief system or their (God-given and natural) sexual orientation.”

          (Matthew 7:17-18) “Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.”

          And your statement that your perversion is “God-given and natural” is an insult to God and nature.

          (Rom 1:27) “And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”

        7. Where’s the argument? Some people are male, some people are female, and some people are male and female. The book even says it. :cool:

        8. John, you assume the tree is bad before you even look at the fruit.

          What would be natural for you is unnatural for a homosexual. And vice versa.

        9. Faith

          You say “Some people are male, some people are female, and some people are male and female. The book even says it”

          Whatever book it is you are referring to, I know not–but I (and everyone else) know for sure it is not the Bible.

          The verse quoted (and many others) clarify your confusion.

          There is a reason the term “fruity” is used in connection with such confusion Faith.

          God determines what is natural or unnatural, not you.

        10. John, if I had any respect for you at all or any inkling that truth of any kind (outside of your own parallel universe) meant anything to you, I would be happy to share my experience of coming to understand who I am and that it’s a gift from God. Probably Faith would too. You insist that it’s our “chosen” way of life without understanding the least thing about us. I would dare say that many others on this forum also believe that it’s a choice, but they’re not throwing around terms like Sodomite, perversion, and making lame trans- jokes. You really are an atrocious representative of the God, Christ, and Gospel you claim to believe.

        11. Di,

          You beef is with the Bible, not me .

          You have made your choice, and want acceptance and approval of what God calls abomination.

          It’s not a gift but a hurtful sin.

          I have close kin who profess the same as you, and I love them very much and spend time with them. I do not shun them or bash them.

          That doesn’t change the fact that they too are woefully wrong.

          (1 Cor 6:9) “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”

        12. “You beef is with the Bible, not me”

          This is the standard fundy tactic that I heard wayyy too much from the pulpit. As the pastor yells at everyone, surely to hit as many people as possible, just retreat and hide behind the bible. “Hey, don’t be upset with me. I’m just telling you what the bible says”. In truth it is what the fundy thinks the bible says.
          I say “nonsense poopy pants” :lol:

        13. (1 Cor 6:9) “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”

          Is what the Bible says.

          As an Athiest, you do not believe the Bible, regardless of what any preacher says.

          (Psalm 14:1) “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.”

        14. John, you have once again proved that Fundies like taking verses out of context.

          (1 Cor 6:9) “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”

          And what does it say after the comma, John?

          “10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

          11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”
          All that passage is saying is “Y’all were a bunch of scumbags, but you have been cleaned up and made fit to be part the Kingdom of God by the name of Jesus.” It’s about the power of Jesus to save, not a laundry list of things that will send you to hell.

        15. Oh, and God does determine what is natural and unnatural. We see it in creation every day. Thousands of people are born intersexed, that is physically both male and female. Sex and gender are not black and white, either/or properties.

          And just watch dogs or dolphins or monkeys for a while if you don’t think that homosexuality isn’t a natural behavior.

        16. Faith,

          Exactly!
          In context those individuals were due for hell, but

          verse11 “And such were some of you: but ye are washed,”

          They are no longer in such sin but have been washed!

          These sins are not continued by Christians and Paul is making that very argument here.

          Homosexulaity is a horrible sin along with the rest and unless repented of, you will go to Hell. Same for the fornicator , adulterer, murderer etc.

          Also, it is quite obvious you have God and “mother Nature” mixed up….fallen creation is rife with sin and distortion.

          (Mat 19:4) And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

          The fact that you acgt like an animal is no argument, only an admission

      3. Oh, it didn’t offend me. I’m just used to Fundies taking slams at people with unisex online names even when posts prove what the person is.

        Of course, now that you know I’m female, the dreaded “Jezebel” term used against non-Fundamental women is sure to pop up. In the interest of fairness and saving your typing fingers, you should know…

        I don’t even wear make-up. :grin:

        1. Let’s get something straight. I’m not the one coming on here, saying I’m not a Fundy, and then acting so stereotypically like a Fundy that some of us would think you were a parody like CMG if it weren’t for your little video.

          I am an ex-Fundamentalist. I am honest about it. I admit I’m still learning and growing outside the Fundybubble. I do not to have all the answers, but I will call out baloney-spewing.

          Back down, John. You are acting like a Fundamentalist to the point where nobody believes your “I’m not a Fundy” schtick. You treat your own interpretations of Scripture as if they are Scripture itself, and it drives you crazy when one of us calls you on it… maybe because you really think your interpretation really is the only right one. Actually, we do you a favor by calling you out if you really are an ex-Fundy. Otherwise, we’re just blowing your cover, which is necessary around here.

          If you’re going to act Fundy, just be Fundy. If not, quit acting like it.

        2. Dangit, George…

          I do not have all the answers…

          Darrell, no way to work in an edit function and give George a vacation, eh?

  12. Hey Darrell,
    Did you know anything about this?

    They are your flock right? You are their self appointed preacher.

    I didn’t know I had taken over and made myself Dear Leader.
    Should we have an ordination ceremony or something?
    Can we have an electronic laying on of hands? Maybe everyone can reply to this all at once using ALL CAPS as they touch my avitar on their screens.
    :shock:

    1. @Don, when I first started reading SFL, some of your comments were a little startling to me, your sense of humor and your out-spokenness. But as I kept reading, I saw your heart, one that follows after God and that cares for others and that is passionate for truth. Thanks for showing me that the body of Christ doesn’t have to be all cookie-cutter Christians, and thanks for your openness.

      1. Thanks PW. I came back here because I was tired of allowing fundie type junk to cause me to leave. If I give in and leave then the IFB mentality wins. I wrestled with it and came back a few days later to peek in and see what was happening. I had to make a stand. The poison of legalism and appearance over substance must be faced and the light shown on it. I do make a stand against the Americanized Christianity that is practiced today.
        I appreciate your testimony and that of your husband. I see you are making a difference and much effort to get back to biblical Christianity. You do not realize what that means to me. I applaude you both and pray for you in that journey.

    2. Since he brought it up, I feel compelled to point out that at least twice in this thread John made reference to preachers then immediately equated that with “obeying your authority.” I find the emphasis on the authority of the preacher very revealing. The pastor is a servant, right? He’s the shepherd, which to me implies leadership, yes, but not “authority.” And yet here’s John prattling on about authority like the end-all of being a pastor is exercising authority. And that’s what I despised most about Fundamentalism while I was in it – pastors who saw themselves as the “benevolent” dictator of his local flock.

      Sorry, don’t mean to hijack. Don, thanks for saying what no doubt many of us are thinking. Rather than repeat you I’ll just say, “Keep on keepin’ on.” :D

    1. I wish I could send a local IFB over to go soulwinning on his A. :)

      I don’t think there’s an IFB worth his salt that wouldn’t find hours & hours of stuff worth bring the guilt & conviction over and questioning his salvation over. I’m personally having a hard time not questioning it myself, and I’ve been known to have pluralistic tendencies at times. If I end up “in heaven” with John, I wanna be on the other side of the railroad tracts, and preferably no quick or direct route.

      1. Oh, Rob, you could do what I did once.

        One Sunday afternoon while I was still Fundy (but questioning), the JWs broke my personal 11th commandment, “thou shalt not mess up my Sunday nap”. I said I had graduated from a Bible college and knew what they were saying quite well, but the guys in apartment five would be quite interested. Apartment five was the home for Mormon missionaries. It was all I could do not to grab a lawn chair and popcorn to watch the fireworks. (BTW, I actually had a good relationship with the Mormon guys, but we did play pranks on one another across the hall.)

        So… you could send out more Fundies, some JWs, some Mormons, and throw in a few political canvassers and a Cutco salesperson for good measure. Oh yeah, and mess up that Sunday nap ;)

  13. A simple astronomy google search shows that the planets are in no way relative to the Sun in octaves. Their distances are not even close to double each other. I think you can teach anything in an IFB church and it will be believed.
    Did you know that there are exactly 3 electrons in every atom but that they form 1 atomic structure? Did you know that when you split an atom there is a stamp on the inside that says “Hath Been Made by The LORD” in Elizabethan English?

  14. One of the best things about this comments section is the civility and respect that allows people with widely divergent beliefs and opinions to share our stories and discuss religious issues.

    I am sorry to all who have been verbally attacked by John, or felt traumatized here. Diachenko, I am glad you are here, sharing your perspective. Faith, I am happy you are here, doing the same in the face of personal attack. Neither of you deserve these condescending personal slams, and I apologize on behalf of straight cis Christian men.

    Yes, there may be people here who have different beliefs about sexuality and gender. You know what? They probably don’t have personal experience of being gay, or being transgender. I want to hear your stories.

    Let’s not let a troll destroy this community. I’ve seen it in online discussion boards before; derailing constructive and safe spaces is a fundy specialty. They live off of FUD, and seem to never outgrow Someone Is Wrong On The Internet syndrome.

    1. Thanks, Jack.

      I waded into John’s mudhole knowing things were going to get dirty. That is the nature of John. God still loves me, and I am secure in who I am.

      I’m not sure where I would share my whole story here, I should probably get my own blog if I’m going to do that. But I will continue to give my perspective on the things that interest me here. :smile:

    2. “verbally attacked by John”

      By quoting scripture?

      I have never insulted anyone here by calling them names, but I have been called all sorts of names and then told I am a “martyr” for pointing it out :roll:

      My care and concern for Di, Faith and others who express and defend anti-biblical arguments is treated as wrong , while they are applauded.

      I am sorry you feel the need to nourish a sin that will send a soul to Hell.

      The truth hurts and blaming the messenger is only an easy excuse.

        1. Faith

          If you would have repented, or if you repent now, you will know the comfort of Christ and a peae that passes all understanding.

          Your refusal to repent is the reason for your misery

        2. Thanks for caring s’more. :)

          I did repent, many times. I begged and pleaded for this to be taken from me. But God never did, all I got was silence until I said “OK God, then help me to be the kind of woman you want me to be.” Then everything changed. My life is filled with joy and peace, I am happy now regardless of outside circumstances. It’s truly the peace of God that defies all understanding.

          But you won’t believe me because you care so much.

    3. Yes, thank you Jack! And you don’t need to apologize on behalf of straight Christian men. Most here have been wonderful and I respect and admire them. I’m not convinced that John belongs to that group, so as I say, apology unnecessary.

      Faith said: “I waded into John’s mudhole knowing things were going to get dirty. That is the nature of John. God still loves me, and I am secure in who I am.”

      Faith, my friend, that is beautifully said, and I’m borrowing it for myself too. :smile:

    4. Jack: Don’t worry about the trolls. Most of us do know where to draw certain boundaries about other people’s lives for the purposes of this blog. We know when to agree to disagree. Regardless of our own personal beliefs, I think most of us agree on having compassion for others dealing with difficult circumstances and learning to live peaceably with others as much as possible.

      Because of this, those who just want to stir up trouble are pretty quickly recognized for who they are. We know these people are not here to bring any of us back into their idea of a right relationship with God, but to attempt to heap more trouble upon us. They make themselves so obvious that they neutralize any threat they thought they could be.

    5. You’re absolutely welcome! I’m still sorry you have to experience this kind of “care” and “respect” in Christian circles, though.

  15. (1 Cor 6:9) “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”

    Is what the Bible says.

    As an Athiest, you do not believe the Bible, regardless of what any preacher says.

    (Psalm 14:1) “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.”

  16. I can speak only for myself. In John’s posts I recognize the hand that struck at me even though it was not him, and my defenses go up. My family was hurt in a fundy church, betrayed by a crass, blustery m-o-g serving his own ends. I later ran afoul of another crass, blustery, abusive m-o-g in a church school where I taught. These people were surrounded by a fellowship of others like them. Kind of like a pack of junkyard dogs.
    To address the original topic of music: Over the years traveling to churches in our music ministry we ran into a few other junkyard dogs. I could sense them when I walked in the building on Saturday to set up our gear; I always tended to look at the tracts on display, missionary boards, songbooks in the racks, music in the piano bench. I would flip over Sunday school papers lying around to check on the publisher. I checked on the Bibles in the pews, if they had them, and if not I checked on those that had been left behind from the last service. If there were any NIV’s I could relax, because I knew KJV Only-ism was not an issue. But if they were all KJV, we would readjust our song selection in our program accordingly, taking out some truly good songs that were a little more “upbeat”. To be fair, some of these churches were great fun and good folks, and we were pleasantly surprised at times, but I was always wary. If we were invited to minister in John’s church I think I would be very ill at ease, not because of our music which was well received even in the fundy-est of churches, but because of the fear that arises in me by the attitude he displays. Isn’t it sad that legalism and fear of one another divides the body of Christ? So many of us here on SFL have been wounded by the bad parts of fundamentalism. We find camaraderie here and a healing in the sharing and laughter. At least I know I do. I am sure John believes he is doing a good thing, but I recognize the hand that struck me poking its bony finger in those wounds, and I find myself fighting shy of it.

    My metaphorical contribution: Loud and contentious fundies are like junkyard dogs baring their teeth and barking in defense of the rusting empty hulks of legalism.

    1. Kate,

      I think you are right kate. This explains why so many here just outright attack me for any post I make, even if it is just scripture.

      It doesn’t excuse it, but it does explain it.

      The gunshy attitude is so defensive and retalitory that logic is overlooked.

      BTW we dont have KJV’s in the rack and have a guitar,Bass etc for our services and enjoy eclectic (and electric) music so it sounds like you would have been comfortable at our Church.

      1. John says, “I think you are right kate.”

        She is, but you didn’t read the post closely enough.

        “This explains why so many here just outright attack me for any post I make, even if it is just scripture.”

        You never post “just Scripture”. You always have your little spin on it. I didn’t say it was God’s spin. It’s yours. I know you think your views and God’s are the same, but they really aren’t.

      2. Yes, as I said, we were often pleasantly surprised. But there were a few nightmares, too, though we were there to serve and not to contend.
        Well, once… A woman took us gals aside and took us to task for wearing pants while we were working at setting up our equipment. I can still see and hear her; “Some of our teen girls here today are wondering if you are saved.” Now that chapped my hide and I asked to see the pastor. He held his peace after I informed him that I would not have appreciated the men standing around that day watching me haul instruments, sound equipment and catering equipment out of the back of my pick up truck while wearing a skirt! Besides being downright impractical it would have been indecent. Quite the peep show!
        In 40 years of running up against the legalistic judgmental attitudes and ranting rhetoric of some self-serving preachers’ agendas, SFL is the first place I have been able to share my experiences and discover others have stories, too. It’s not just me. I’m not alone. I have learned more about grace from folks here than I ever have in church. Grace is a fundamental that fundies have forgotten, it seems. The angry name-calling and accusatory diatribe that has been going on here for the past few days hurts. It does not heal. There is not much grace in it. It makes me sad. :sad:

        1. Kate,

          A lot of the name-calling and other nastiness can be traced to one person and one person only. The rest of us probably need to stop responding, but temptation gets the better of us or something outrageous gets said that just can’t be left unchallenged.

          Most of us here, regardless of our current beliefs, are compassionate people who are as tired of bullying under the guise of faith as you are. If you’re on FB, Darrell, Camille, grace2live, and some others can direct you to some forums where people can talk more freely without the trolling.

        2. @LMcC join the growing list of people ignoring! He’s not worth the time & effort, and just gets thrilled to know he’s wasted your time.

  17. Uh, John, I wouldn’t go there if I were you. You just posted a verse which proved Faith’s point that the Bible does refer to “male and female”.

    Faith also made a valid point about intersexed people, those born without a clear gender distinction. I’ve known about three people who were born with both male and female parts. One had surgery to remove the male stuff, one was in the process of surgeries to… for lack of a better term become male… before he died, and one can’t afford surgery and frankly refuses to get cut up as a condition of being accepted anyway. These people and others, through NO FAULT of their own, have endured ostracism, rumors, and all kinds of nastiness at the hands of so-called “good Christians” (including Fundies). There is NO section of the fundamentalist church (or conservative evangelical, for all I know) that can reach out to intersexed people or parents whose children are born intersexed. If anything, they’re consistently run out of church. No room for them in your heaven, is there?

    1. Mrs L, Faith and “George”,

      Faith’s point was the opposite!
      You back up MY argument and the Bibles.
      You should have read slower Mrs L.
      Also, intersexed is a misnomer and the scientific community only recently allowed it to be used. The determination is clear even at birth that a child is “one or the other”-he or she may have defects or deformities of another, but they are not both.
      Also, this is a result of sin on creation and anything but “normal” or somehting to approve of. In fact, it proves the rule.
      Paul said there were some made enuchs form the room and there is plenty of room in heaven for them, just like any other handicapped person.

      1. Oh, please, you thought Kate was supporting you.

        http://www.xyxo.org/isgi/apologetic.html

        I’d like to see what you’d actually say to a person with Klinefelter’s or Turner’s, or a chimera, or someone who may well be able to have surgery to be one or the other but cannot afford it. Granted, I wouldn’t want any of those people anywhere near your line of fire…

        1. I merely pointed out that you say I cannot read, yet you thought Kate supported you when she pretty obviously did not.

          In terms of the intersex issue: I have always been referring back to one of Faith’s posts in which she mentions people who are born with ambiguous genitalia and/or genetic makeup (you don’t like the word intersex so I am nice enough to spell it out for you instead). Instead of being so rude as to sugges that you cannot read, maybe you merely skipped this short post to which I refer.

        2. This is confusing, are you just trying to make an argument?

          I referred to your other statements already

          (Matt 19:12) “For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: ”

          This doesn’t change the definition of sin

        3. So, John, will you please explain how being born with ambiguous genitalia and/or a genetic variant instead of the XX or XY is in and of itself a sin?
          If you’re going to make a statement like “(Matt 19:12) For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: This doesn’t change the definition of sin” when I’m clearly talking about a birth issue in which the child had no choice in the matter, you’d better be ready to back it up.

          If you’re going to use that verse and then make that statement immediately after it, it’s pretty clear you are not talking about the lingering effect of original sin upon all creation, but something far more condemning for the individual child.

          I’m not talking about activity here. I’m talking about popping out of the womb and the doctor immediately whisks the baby away without the usual “it’s a boy” or “it’s a girl” announcement.

          I’m sure you’ll come up with something, but that doesn’t mean it’s right. Come on, what kind of person would go stand over the bassinet of a _newborn_ and scream “SIN!”?

        4. LMcC

          Are you being facetious?

          The birth defect is a result of a fallen creation. It itself is not a sin…don’t be silly.

          The sin is in ysing this as an excuse to engage in forbidden fornication.

          It’s obviously clear that I was not condemning the individual child.

          :roll:

        5. It’s not clear at all from the way you put it.

          You were tying in being born with ambiguous genitalia and acting out sexually (and I refuse to get into the GHD). Regardless of one’s views on the GHD, leave the intersex issue as something totally separate. Folks can argue forever whether homosexuality is something one is born with or something one can choose. Nobody can or should mistreat a child born with ambiguous sexual genetics or anatomy. I hope we can agree on that much.

          FTR, the people I’ve known and/or known about who are/were IS were definitely not sexually promiscuous. If anything, they had a much harder time finding friends and partners who could handle the situation and so didn’t have the chance to be promiscuous.

  18. homosexulaity, n.: The body of gay Christians. :lol:

    If you could spell it, you are using a word that probably does appear in your Bible.

    I am baffled by your statement that the creation we see around us is not natural. It’s amazing the circles a Fundy will talk himself into.

        1. Actually, I think it’s a wonderful neologism. :) It’s catchier than “Queer Christian” but unfortunately not inclusive enough to fully replace that term.

        2. “Certainly, but you neither admit your own or forgive others for theirs.”

          Sure I do–have here in fact, more than once. Since I will make more mistakes, I likely will have to again.

          And I forgive easily! You are forgiven!

        3. You don’t mean it. Knock it off. You wouldn’t “forgive” me if I returned to Fundamentalism and repented of my time here.

          (Don’t get any ideas there. For me to return to Fundamentalism would be for me to put a stamp of approval on all kinds of sinful behavior, including covering up the criminal activity of certain pastors and other church staff, so that is not going to happen.)

        4. Wow–judgemental aren’t we?

          I forgave you already.

          As for “(returning) to Fundamentalism would be for me to put a stamp of approval on all kinds of sinful behavior, including covering up the criminal activity of certain pastors and other church staff) that’s nonsensical.

          All Catholics must leave the RCC then? By your standard this is the only way for them not to apove of abuses

        5. You are so fake. Forgiving me for… leaving the IFB and being honest about the reasons why, even when it makes the Fundies uncomfortable. Wow, that’s totally unnecessary.

          “All Catholics must leave the RCC then? By your standard this is the only way for them not to apove of abuses”

          Actually, for at least some people, this would be their only option. For those who have some pull and can stay in and help clean up the system, they can decide whether they should do so and if it’s even worth it to try.

          This is one reason why I left Fundamentalism. As a woman, and as the child of a widow, I had no voice of my own and nobody to help me out when I started speaking out against the abuses within Fundamentalism. I was called everything but a child of God no matter how kindly and carefully I outlined the issues. I worked the system as well as I could but eventually I had no choice but to get out. There may be married couples (or at least some single men) who do have a voice and feel called to stay in and try to fight those battles (and God knows I hope there are!), but I wasn’t lucky enough to have one of those by my side.

          I had no choice but to get out, and I’m sure there are some Catholic women who need to do the same thing concerning their church. If there’s anyone who thinks they can stay in and actually make positive changes in either the RCC or the IFB, I’m behind them both for trying… but I’m also here to catch them and comfort them when and if they realize they can take no more and must step out.

        6. So you now know my heart too? Wow.

          You gave your reasons for leaving the IFB and they are synonomous to the RCC issue, this is no reflection on IFB doctrine, only your anger at abuses which all denominations have problems with.

        7. Oh, actually it is a reflection on *all* doctrines which leave the door open to things like domestic violence, sexual abuse of children, abuse of pastoral power, etc. My experience just happens to be IFB. I have Catholics in my family who have had to deal with their church’s issue, and they’ve done it in their own ways.

          And yes, IFB doctrine does lead directly to such abuses of power because of its rigid authoritarian pyramid structure, the inability to challenge authority freely (even when done with a general attitude of respect), and the insularity which keeps the victims from seeking help. These things are all justified by their own interpretation of Scripture and perpetuated by their own misunderstanding of human nature and the corrupting influence of power. Until the IFB leadership wakes up, there is no hope for that to change. The only thing left is for the IFB laity, especially those who can never have any real say in the system, to get out.

        8. LMcC it’s no use. You are now in the Judgmental-martyr-controll loop. Logic and reason do not apply in this dimension.

        9. Don: I know. It’s useless, he’s beyond understanding, there’s no hope. It’s sad, really.

          I would have hoped he’d have written us all off as completely evil and separated himself from us by now. But no. And it’s not like he wants to win us back to Fundamentalism either. You’d think he’d try to do that much. But no. You’re right.

          There is no reasonable explanation for what he does. :cry:

        10. LMcC,
          Perhaps the reasonable explanation is to generate illustration material for sermons.
          (I hope this lands in the right place. The *reply button* has failed me of late. Back, George, back, I say!)

  19. Hahahaha, listen to 6 out of 7 of these videos. Because the bush men of Africa believe demons ride the waves of drum beats down into the soul of then ipso facto CCM is evil.

    I love seeing how uncomfortable all the people get when he plays the real rocky stuff. I keep waiting for one of the curly headed fundie ladies to plug her ears.

  20. Faith:
    You are so correct when you summarized “All that passage is saying is “Y’all were a bunch of scumbags, but you have been cleaned up and made fit to be part the Kingdom of God by the name of Jesus.” It’s about the power of Jesus to save, not a laundry list of things that will send you to hell.

    Unfortunately John appears to be so caught up in his Pharisaical righteousness that he is unable to discern what the Gospel is. Remaining safely behind his wall of random verses of an archaic translation of the Bible, he is blind to the Gospel. Gospel is good news, it is freeing, and it is NOT law! We can only hope that the Holy Spirit will penetrate his hard shell and show him God’s simple truth.

    I have never been a fundy so I have thankfully never had to fight so hard to understand Grace. Grace is free, we can’t earn it, no matter how hard we try to not sin, it doesn’t have any effect. We are saved ONLY by Christ’s perfect sacrifice; not because of what we do or don’t do. Hopefully John will one day understand that because of all of our sins, whether it be gluttony, hate, sexual sin or whatever,the default is hell. It is only because of Christ that we can be redeemed. Keeping the Law or fundyism’s non-Biblical rules will only mean we have been law abiding people as we enter hell.

    1. There has been no mention of any man made rules or standards…only what the passage says, which is that you must turn from those sins to be washed and made clean.

      Faith does not belive that the sin of homosexuality she engages is is a sin that will send her to hell, regardless of what the Bible says.

      1. I wrote above “We are saved ONLY by Christ’s perfect sacrifice; not because of what we do or don’t do.” You appear to believe that we save ourselves (at least partially) by stating we must turn from sins to be washed. However, we can never do that perfectly as was indicated by Jesus when he tightened up the Law by indicating, for example, that even anger against a brother constitutes murder. He meant that we cannot keep the law perfectly so our only hope is in Him because he kept the law perfectly. If Faith, or anyone, trusts in Christ’s perfect sacrifice for her, then she belongs to HIM. Of course we should try not to sin, but none of us will be successful in that regard in this life.

        If someone lusts after a woman not his wife, even once, he is bound for hell if he is not a believer. If someone is a glutton he is bound for hell if he is not a believer. We finite humans classify sins according to our own scale, but God’s scale condemns all sin equally. I hope God opens your eyes to his simple and wonderful Gospel.

        1. I expect John thinks all those that come under the GLBT label are the same. javascript:grin(‘:neutral:’)

        2. Wout: It only takes actually knowing people who are LBG/T/I to get over that notion, and I don’t just mean knowing their names. I lived in a city with a very high gay population for five years while I was still Fundy. During that time, I had a Good Samaritan moment. When I needed someone who gave a flip, it wasn’t the church folks who were there. It was the gays, the pagans, the sick-of-church crowd… you get the picture. Strangely, enough, I didn’t lose my faith. If anything, I got a major attitude adjustment that has served well in the years since.

          All Fundies are good for in a time of crisis is throwing people under a bus.

        3. “All Fundies are good for in a time of crisis is throwing people under a bus.”

          All the while assuring us that the bus is our own fault and of our own making. Then they will take over the bus, throw it in reverse to back over us again, while insisting that this is their attempt to “restore” us.

        4. Ha! I’m only repeatedly running you over with the bus becaue you are so deserving of it! And you deserve worse, should thank me for going easy on you. And of course lastly this is only because I love you so much to do this rather than let you do something that bothers me!

        5. You deserve to be run down and ran over repeatedly by someone because of your obvious sin, and I’m going to show you how much I love you by being the one who does it. (all while quoting: “…the wounds of a friend…. I’m only kicking you while you’re down because I love your soul…”) :shock:

  21. this is one thing I can agree with the IFB churches about. Contemporary Christian Music is horrible, although I just think its mostly crappy and not satanic.

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