262 thoughts on “Removing All Doubt”

    1. Obviously, fact it has male leadership is more important than anything else – such as, say, the times of the services.

    2. Most churches are content to have “Men in Charge” as an unspoken theme. This one feels the need to make it part of the church name: Male Leadership Gospel Baptist Church and School.

      1. I suppose they mean that the gospel of male leadership is taught there, as opposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

      2. That’s what I thought the name was at first glance “Male Leadership Gospel Baptist Church”.

        Which led me to wonder what the “Male Leadership Gospel” was. I’ve heard of the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and even the gospels of Thomas and Judas, but not the gospel of Male Leadership. Mr. Male Leadership: the 13th apostle?

      1. Have you looked behind your ear?
        Oh, wait, in that picture it looks like you don’t have an ear.

    1. Scorpio, no one cares where your pen is.

      That sign can’t be real. It has to be photoshopped. It just has to be, for no church (no matter how fundy) could possibly consider their position on male leadership of such importance that they would have to actually advertise it as if it was just as important as Jesus.

      Now, if they mean that Christ is the head of the church, then great! Then why not display, “Jesus Leadership” ? They could then place in smaller letters below such a sign, “servant leadership.”

      As far as the nursery is concerned, can you imagine Earl the automechanic watching your little-bitsy babies? I’m okay with the wimmins taking charge there.

      Okay, speaking of wimmins; Maybe this church has a nearby church that has wimmin bishops or something. Perhaps this sign is an open protest to such an abomination of desolation. I wonder if there is some sort of internal strife amongst the deaconesses involving their men-folk not standing up to the plate and taking leadership. This might very well be a sign that the wimmins put up to poke at the men to take their rightful place. I think it’s a rebuke from the feminine gender against the weak-kneed, yellow-bellied, cowardly men-folk.


      1. My dear, departed Pentecostal neighbour lady once said to me in exasperation, “I know the Bible says men are supposed to be the leaders but HOW DO WE MAKE THEM LEAD?”

        1. lol… yeah, there are some jerks that use the “male leadership” to dominate their wives. but more often I find that wives use it as a way to guilt trip their husbands into doing something. i have a friend that was divorced by his wife because he “wasn’t a christian leader in the home” (or that’s his version, anyway). he’s an engineer… he’s like sorry… i was working paying the damn bills instead of leading bible study every night. she was dating again before the divorce was even final. honestly sounds like a thinly veiled excuse to get rid of someone once the romance in the marriage dwindled under the weight of four kids (two of whom are adopted from the third world because that’s what christians do, you know).

        2. ^^ THIS is exactly why the patriarchy movement thrives, not because of men on a power trip, but because of bossy wives who tell their husbands how and where they are going to lead. For some reason these women want to have bunches of kids, so they use sex as a weapon to control their husbands, refusing to use birth control, and pretending that dad is this big patriarch, when its really the matriarch who is in charge, guilting dad by saying, “Children are a blessing from God; you don’t want God’s blessings in your life?” And before you know it, you’ve got a dad who works to provide for an army, while mom gets her dream of sitting on her ass at home, homeschooling, and putting the older kids in charge of taking care of the younger ones.

          Trust me, I’ve seen it first hand in my family. And yes, there is some bitterness in between those lines. And yes, I feel like the Duggars are Independent Baptist spawns of hell, with permanent smiles tattooed on their faces.

        3. I think you are half right, Larry. I have seen what you describe in my family and others but I have also seen the flip side where cruel men use the Bible to keep women down. Sadly both attitudes destroy the wonderful companionship that marriage can bring. I don’t blame you one bit for being bitter. There are a lot of things about the way I lived for years that make me angry and bitter too.

        4. Yes, I admit, my observations are quite anecdotal. Although most of the families I know in this type of theology are quietly run by women, I’m sure there are more than a fair share of bullying men there too. Its really just a breeding ground for dysfunctional people all around.

        5. Sick people will use whatever they can to further their sick agenda. In my experience and the experience of most people I’ve spoken to about this, it’s usually the woman who exploits “patriarchy.” But the potential for abuse on the part of the man is very obvious, and if the potential is there than there are certainly people taking advantage of it.

        6. Larry, I find that there are couples that both buy into “God will just make big families work out so have lots of kids.” They don’t figure out the reality of how hard parenting and providing for so many is until they have a brood. Not to mention operating in exhaustion and scarcity seems to make them take longer to figure out that a large family is not best for everyone. It can be hard letting go of an ideal. I had three, age three and under at one point and there are years I don’t remember.

        7. MollyWollyDoodle, love the name, the whole purity, male leadership, no dating, God will provide, quiverfull garbage is a toxic recipe for disastrous relationships. I am not sure how there are fundy couples that have good marriages and happy families. I know there are but I suspect they secretly buck the system somehow.

        8. Oh yes. My oldest was three when my youngest was born. Threes tiny ones, an upstairs apartment, and husband was making barely above minimum. but we were supposed to trust God and he would take care of everything, right?

          I wish I could forget some of those years. Like the times when I skipped meals so the kids had enough to eat. Or raided their piggy banks for laundry or gas money. Or washed my hair with dish soap because there wasn’t money for shampoo. Or the time we were so broke, the kids’ dad snuck down to the creek and put in the crawfish trap. We ate crawfish for a couple of months doing that. (I still can’t stand them.) And found out later that the creek was polluted from the chip plant a couple of miles away.

          And it was an arranged marriage. I stuck it out for 11 years.

        9. MiriamD and Liutgard….Thank God my husband and I came out of fundamentalism together. We grew as we read and thought and talked and searched. It was painful. My guy is just a good, good man, better than the me to be honest…he’s pretty much lost his family. We love our kids dearly and desperately but we really have our hands full dealing with physical health and spiritual healing issues on a daily basis. Joyful now to know a loving, holy Jesus who calls to true mercy, love, and humbleness. Blessing to you.

        10. P.S. Liutgard…I can’t imagine how hard that was…I’ve not had to watch my children go hungry. MiriamD, we are still carefully sorting through how purity culture hurts and what is healthy and appropriate. My heart hurt the other day when my preschool niece was over to watch Frozen (surprisingly allowed) and she burst into tears, “I’m IMMODEST!!!,” crying over and over again because the Elsa dress she borrowed showed some skin through the top. Her parents were rather proud that she freaked out. :^(

        11. That little girl crying breaks my heart too. I know exactly what you mean by her parents pride. I have seen that too. My little niece gave me a lecture, with tears in her eyes, on the evils of “wearing things between your legs.” She may have been six, no more and possibly younger. Poor little things to be so worried about such things when they should have nothing but mud pies and bird nests on their minds. It creates emotional instability later in life. I have seen it many times.

        12. Why Grandma! What separated standards you have! All the better to judge you with, my dear!

          When little ones see clothing styles (or even not being clothed) as wrong, wicked, or evil they have been corrupted. Why, in their innocence Adam and Eve were naked in the garden and we’re not ashamed!

          The parents are giving this little one a lifetime of grief.

      2. Well, there definitely are places where the male members are elevated to a higher position – Scorpio would be well aware of such since the cockpit of SFL tends to provoke a similar inflated view of self.

        They certainly could have done a better job of PR/Branding as “Sausage Party Baptist Church” could be attractive on a number of different levels and provide a number of marketing tie-ins when it came to events and capital campaigns.

        I don’t know about you, but my Balogna has a first name.

        1. Here in my city we have two signs right next to each other on the same block:

          Julian Veterinary Hospital
          Silva Sausage Factory

          Your bologna could be Rover or Fluffy.

  1. I wonder if the other churches in Bonita Springs, Fl have had an influx of wimmenfolk.

    1. If there’s an Episcopal Church in town, that might in fact be the case. Our last priest was a lesbian. Currently our priest is a young family man, but our deacon is a young woman. Anyone who has a call can become clergy.

      1. Well, at least if they and their discernment committee agree there’s a call, and if the Vestry will sponsor, and if the various levels above the parish agree, and if the candidate survives seminary. Not quite so many hoops to jump through to become a deacon, but there’s still the discernment committee, and lots of training, and lots of field experience.

        1. Yup. You can’t just get a DDiv from Joe’s Independent Baptist Bible College and Car Wash and then get on as an assistant pastor at your gag’s church.

        2. Dammit, George! That’s dad’s church!

          (Disclosure- I’m on some pretty hefty pain meds, and my typing is awfully sloppy today.)

  2. Isn’t it ironic that when Gospel Baptist Church is translated into Spanish, all the words take the feminine form?

        1. Someone said the language of Heaven is Finnish. Because it would take you all Eternity to learn it.

    1. Yes, it is ironic.

      While we’re on that subject, I’ve seen the phrase before, especially at Baptist churches, but “Buenas Nuevas” is a pretty bad translation of “εὐαγγέλιον” (“euangélion”). The more usual way to say “good news” in Spanish would be “noticias buenas” or “buenas noticias.” “Buenas Nuevas” sounds more like “new goods” (as in fresh merchandise). I wonder if someone with an English-to-Spanish dictionary in hand attempted a quickie-word-for-word transposition.

      1. It’s translated as “buenas nuevas” in the old “Versión Antigua” (back before the widely used 1960 Reina Valera), and is also translated the same way in the more recent Nueva Versión Internacional (NIV in English). I think it may just be the traditional way of saying it, but out here in California I hear “buenas noticias del evangelio” all the time.

    2. A bit- though the Romance languages are like that. Inflection and sex are specific to the object, not to the person. A Frenchman can point to his head and say ‘ma tête’, but a woman may refer to ‘mon vagina’. Which is bizarre, but that’s the way it works.

      1. As David Sedaris pointed out, the French word for “vagina” is masculine, but the French word for “masculinity” is feminine. Go figure.

        1. In Latin, one of the major terms for male genitalia is feminine and one of the major terms for female genitalia is masculine.

          Noun genders often make NO sense.

      2. I tell my Spanish students that it’s not about the feminine words wearing pink and the masculine words wearing blue. It’s just a convention to organize grammar.

        1. But some languages, including English for the most part, get along just fine without nouns having genders, so it makes you wonder why so many other languages think they need it.

        2. Just blame it all on Latin! All languages have interesting things about them…their syntax, their pronunciation (tones, clicks), their grammar, or their writing system. It’s why I enjoy being a language teacher (Spanish from Sept-June, and ESL in the summer to kids from several different countries).

        3. Because they are directly descended from Latin (hence the ‘roman’ part of ‘romance’), in which nouns are gendered. Why Latin has gendered forms, I don’t know.

        4. Re: binary vs. gendered

          Some non-European languages have more than two (or three, as German) genders. We think of gender as meaning masculine or feminine, but it can also refer to other traits of a word. In grammar it can, that is.

        5. This may explain the German woman I knew as a child and her confusing habit of seemingly random gender designations to inanimate objects.

        6. Learning binary is as easy as 01, 10, 11.

          11 cheers for binary.

          There are 10 types of people in the world when it comes to binary……….

        7. German is notorious for assigning inexplicable genders to nouns.
          As Mark Twain remarked in his classic essay, “The Awful German Language,” “In German, a turnip has a sex, but a yound lady has none.”
          [“Rübe” is a feminine noun in German, and “Mädchen” is a neuter noun, so it’s “die Rübe,” but “das Mädchen.”

        8. In Russian, ‘cat’ is masculine, but ‘kitty’ is feminine. Dog and doggie are both feminine. It seems to be dependent on whether the word ends in a consonant or a vowel. The use of neuter seems to be arbitrary (probably because I’m not a linguist).

        1. A Fundy pastor in the same situation would be considered to be On Fire For The Lawd.

      1. I read a comment once from a christian (whose name I’ve forgotten), about how many Christians would make great martyrs, they are so dry they burn really well. I hope I’m not one of them.

        1. Other Christians contain so much tallow that they’d burn like a candle for days.

  3. I don’t understand how women in the church are OK with this. I mean, I grew up IFB so I know that some women have no problem with this line of thinking, but I still don’t get it.
    Even when I was a teenager my blood would boil whenever the pastor preached on submission.

    1. Mine too, Rebecca A. and I suspect that is why we are ex Fundy while the others are still Fundy. They are better at “keeping the flesh in submission.” Oh gag.

      1. Hahaha! Yes, MiriamD, I’m sure they pray for our souls everyday. Independent women who can think for themselves? The horror! We need to get right with God. :p

        1. Something that still makes me laugh is my youngest daughter’s response to being told she was being prayed for, “by name.” She said, “What, not by description? Not the freckled, green eyed, curly haired one?” All that holy, speak-ese, stupidity.

        2. Ah, yes. I remember people saying they were “praying for someone by name.” My brother is ex-fundy, too, and we still get a good laugh out of the ridiculous things fundies say.
          @BamaMan, I’ll make you a sammich, but I don’t think you’d like what was in it. :p

        3. “By name”: This must be a survival of the ancient belief that there is an inherent power in saying people’s names.

          In some Native American cultures, for example, a person’s “true” name is known only to that person and his/her family. Each person has another, public name for everyday use, because saying a person’s “true,” private name might endanger that person or at least give the speaker some kind of power over the person with that name.

          It has been claimed that after the city in Washington was named for Chief Seattle (also spelled Si’al and several other ways), the eponym was unhappy and asked for compensation on the grounds that after his death, Chief Seattle’s spirit would be unable to rest whenever people spoke the town name.

        4. Interesting, Big Gary. I must mention this to the next Fundy who I hear saying it. They would be horrified at using something with such non-Christian connotations.

        5. Aw, a compliment. Thank you. It’s better than a butt cushion even. My kid is pretty funny

        6. I think the phrase “I prayed for you by name” is supposed to reassure the person that they were being thought of specifically not in the general manner of many prayers: “Lord, bless all the missionaries and all the church folks and all the people who are sick. Bring the backsliders back to you.” Those prayers tend to be vague and short. Praying for someone by name means you’re thinking of their particular situation.

        7. Actually what I just wrote pretty much goes without saying — you all know it. I guess I’m just really tired today so I’m stating the obvious.

          I wouldn’t be surprised if there are elements of the traditional belief in the power of speaking one’s true name buried deep behind that phraseology.

        8. I have no doubt that is true, PW. I guess what annoys and amuses me is the way many Fundies use words or phrases just for the “holiness” factor. When this man told my daughter he would pray for her by name he was being pompous. It is that whole convoluted speech thing they do.

        9. I’m sure there are. The Kabbala is much concerned with how to pronounce the name of God because it is magic. To speak His True Name is to command the power of the Almighty. Fundamentalists believe you are saved by calling on the name of Jesus.

          They replace God Himself with “His Word” (i.e. Scripture, Bible, whatever) and try to constrain God’s actions with those words. The KJV-onlyists are particularly guilty of that. They are reducing a relationship with God down to incantations. So memorize those Bible verses, kids! Use them when you pray, when you witness, and all the rest of the time, too! The more you can quote, the more God will do what you want Him to do (err, the more your heart will be in line with God to lay claim to His Promises! Haymen? HAYMEN!).

    2. Quite a lot of the recent chapel messages at BJU have been on submission. They are trying to recover from too much exposure to GRACE.

        1. Oh man…I could only get through about 10 minutes of that. And, how many times was he going to clear his throat throughout the message? I think I counted at least 20 times during the 10 minutes I listened. :p

        2. Skip ahead about 20 minutes to get to the really, really offensive stuff. It’s all about how honoured women should be to be submissive to men.

        3. Just for the heck of it, I turned that sermon on and listened. I got through about seven minutes of it, and then I had to turn it off while I still had any brains left. That guy preaching on the Scriptures sounds about the way I would sound if I were explicating a text in Sanskrit (a language I don’t know).

        4. Miriam – That is some crazy stuff there. At least he didn’t yell in the parts I listened to. But this just proves that anyone can make any verse in the Bible say anything they want it to say.

        5. Oh my gosh!! I just listened to the rest of this guy’s message. So many gems… “Having children puts her in the home, where she belongs.” “The place of obedience is wonderful.” “A woman’s place is in domestic circles.”

          What kills me is that most women in the fundy lifestyle think this is so great. Why would you willingly want to live your life this way??

        6. Rebecca, I am glad you listened to it. This is what the Plymouth Brethren believe, what they preach and what they live. People say they are kind, good Christians but very few people understand what goes on behind those oh so exclusive closed doors.
          @ Scorpio, Peebs generally don’t yell, not as an ordinary thing but the stuff they preach, it is way out in right field.

        7. I tried to listen, but failed moments into the sermon. There are so many other, more important matters to take care of. Like dusting my Rubik’s Cubes, straightening my Coke cans from other countries, and then rearranging my spare shoelace collection.

        8. Uncle Wilver, should you run out of those important tasks there is loads more where this came from.

        9. Did you grow up Plymouth Brethren, Miriam? I grew up in an IFB church and was STRONGLY discouraged to learn about any other denominations or religions. And, that was before the Internet so I really had no resources, but I was always interested in what other others believed.

          This guy sounds like a lot of IFB preachers I’ve heard in the past, minus the yelling. 😉

        10. Yes, the closed, Tunbridge Wells group of the PBs. It is remarkably healing to speak out about them. We were constantly told that the early church was just like us but most people couldn’t ”stay the course” and left and made up all the other churches, like Baptists and Catholics, lol. We were told that we should never, ever criticize ”The Brethren” in any way or it would bring dishonour to the Lord. We were told a lot of stuff that just ain’t so.

        11. I am so glad that I found this site, too! I only discovered it recently, but it’s so good to know I’m not the only one who’s gotten away from fundamentalism. It’s nice to have kindred spirits.

          Haha! That sounds like the church I grew up in. The IFB was the only “real” church, according to my pastor. All other religions and denominations were heretical. I swear they all make up so much nonsense and brainwash everyone into believing it’s the truth.

          I don’t know if it’s been mentioned on this site or not, but I just started reading a book called “Fundamentalism and American Culture” by George Marsden. I’ve only gotten through the first 80 pages or so, but it’s been really eye opening. So much of what I was taught was just garbage! I swear they made most of it up, or just really, really twisted the Bible to suit their own agendas. There really is no biblical basis for a lot of things I was taught.

        12. If that didn’t hurt Doc, you didn’t listen long enough or perhaps your pain threshold is just way too high. Too much practice, perhaps?

      1. Speaking of BJU, I understand that it has come out with it’s long-awaited response to the GRACE report.
        According to the news story I saw, the response basically was, we don’t acknowledge any mistakes and we aren’t going to change anything. They even said BJ will continue to sell the works of Jim “Shake It Off” Berg.

        I’m sure there will more conversation forthcoming on SFL about this.
        And speaking of BJs, how about the one Liberty University just gave to Ted Cruz?

        1. They have their response on their website bju.edu. You can even download a PDF into your kindle. I saw a very sad response to BJU’s response written from three of the people who were interviewed by GRACE. I’ll have to look it up and post it here.

    3. Good stuff, Big Gary! I’ll be sure to pass that info along to those I know who are still in the fundy lifestyle. 😉 It’s fun when they get uncomfortable.

  4. If this sign is true, nothing says “gospel” like excluding half the human race. The Gospel only fully restores men. Women are only given the entrance into heaven—although I have heard it preached that it is only through child bearing and being a good wife this really happens.
    I recall vividly how Paul speaks of the Spiritual gifts given to the Church by the Holy Spirit are gender specific.

  5. From the website:
    “Single Mother’s Help

    Here at Gospel we have a heart for single moms. We will help them buy vehicles without getting ripped off, or…”

    Because we all know wimmenz are too stoopid to buy a vehicle without a man.

    1. I just looked through the “Ministries” tab. It should read condescending, not ministry, also buses are “gospel chariots?” hmmm

    2. We have a single (mid 50s never married) woman friend with a PhD in education (from a major state school) who took me with her to buy her car. Not because she couldn’t decide. She had already negotiated a good price on a good automobile. It was because she has trouble saying NO, and wanted me to help her write the smallest check possible. (I pushed an awful lot of papers back across the table with firm “No, we don’t want that”)

      I never imagined paying cash for a car would be as long a process as financing.

      1. My sister took her husband along because when she (a six-footer, BTW) crossed her arms and did the Spock Eyebrow of You’re Full of Baloney, the salesman just kept.on.talking. But when he (shorter than his wife, BTW, with a mild, boyish face), shifted his weight a little after she said, “Actually, I’m more interested in [thing salesman didn’t want to sell her],” the conversation changed course accordingly.

        Because penis, apparently.

        He told me that he had daydreamed about getting a really good costumer and makeup artist to help them cross dress and going back to that dealership to buy another car in “her” name, just to see what would happen.

        1. That would be fun to try. How much make-up would I need to hide the beard I grew back late this winter?

          I hadn’t really considered the gender aspect, just the say no aspect. Had she been male, the finance guy would likely have treated her differently. When I went with my son to get his car, he had a lot less trouble. Maybe his 6′ military bearing helped.

        2. I am wondering how I managed to buy a house and two cars (not at the same time) on my own? And, reasonably good deals, too. It must be something to do with my very independent grandmother and mother.

      2. “I never imagined paying cash for a car would be as long a process as financing.”

        Many auto dealers actually hate it when people pay cash for a car or truck, because if you finance through the dealer, the dealership often makes more profit on the loan than on the actual sale of the car.

        1. Yeah, that and many finance companies give a kick back for selling the loan. The salesman gets his from the car, the finance guy from the loan. Not that day.

  6. My fairly conservative evangelical church does not have male elders (by the way, that’s my personal understanding of Scripture), but women in leadership are certainly acknowledged and allowed to lead in all areas. Half of the members of our current pastoral search team are women.

    I’m surprised they didn’t add “macho, macho man” to the sign!

  7. I’m sure you have all misunderstood. This is from their church covenant:
    We engage, therefore, by the aid of the Holy Spirit to walk together in Christian love;

    But then, the same sentence says you will support the church with money also, so then………………..I don’t know. I’m confused the more I read the convoluted run-on sentence they call a church covenant.

    1. Just stick with the Nicene Creed.

      It’s been around for a long, long time through most of Christian history (despite “Baptist history.)

      1. While teaching on the church in an IFB church, I used the line And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. in my introduction and spent a week on each of the words “holy, catholic, and apostolic”. I was almost disappointed no one outside the class challenged me for calling the true church “catholic”.
        Such a teachable moment wasted.

        1. Your teachable moment wasn’t wasted, Uncle.

          Either the folks had no idea where that phrase came from, so they let it slide. Or they were so shocked that they were speechless.

          Either way, it sunk at least a little into their gray matter.

        2. Jay, the kids (pardon me–young adults) in my class left with a new perspective and understanding. Most of them, almost all reared in church, had no clue what the Nicene creed is. I was hoping there might be a ripple effect, but it stalled, as have other things we have discussed. Our congregation is becoming a majority of older folks, a more set in there ways group, losing a lot of young families. I feel like a guy with just a little CPR training happening onto a really bad wreck. Twisted bodies needing help, while I know is to “apply pressure to the wound.” I know often our counsel to those who come to us is not typical IFB, but I believe it is much closer to Christ’s teachings of love and caring.

          I often think I should leave and go elsewhere. If I relied on my church alone for spiritual nourishment, I’d starve to death. I stay hoping to make a difference and help someone else see there is so much more than being slaves to a translation or some form of law. I often think I’m tolerated more than wanted by some of the leadership, but humored because my wife and I have a lot of respect from the older members and we are dependable, if not controllable.

          I know this turned to a bit of a ramble, for which I apologize. Sometimes things just need to be said out loud.

    2. The Male Leadership, etc. Church and School’s “Covenant” also says “We engage … to strive for advancement of this church in knowledge, holiness, and comfort; to promote its prosperity …”

      Because, you know, the Great Commission says “Be comfortable and prosperous.”

    3. Also, as a sort of motto, they have written in red italics above the “Covenant”:

      “Love and use only the King James Version of the English Bible.”

      Which gives us this interesting dichotomy:

      Saint Augustine of Hippo:
      “Love, and do what thou wilt.”

      Male Leadership Gospel Baptist Church and School:
      “Love and use only the King James Version of the English Bible.”

    4. Signing a church covenant is a violation of Jesus’ teaching regarding swearing. For my part, I just think they are so transparently idiotic and manipulative that I just about can’t trust any church that would entertain the idea. Of course I’m one of those liberals.

  8. They have a school. I wonder if, in typical fundy fashion, they have ladies with masters degrees as teachers that have worked there for 20+ years but the “administrator” is a male. A very young man just out of college who will be there for about 5 years. Just long enough to screw things up because he’s clueless about teaching or managing but those female teachers better submit to him because he’s a MAN!

    Well maybe he’s only in charge of the high school. These churches often put the pastors wife in charge of the elementary school whether she has a degree/experience or not and pay her 3-4 times as much as the experienced ladies with masters degrees.

    1. Master’s? Pfffbt. That’s for the world.

      A high school diploma is good enough to be paid $75/week for the work of the ministry.

      1. I seriously doubt that someone with a Master’s from an accredited school would teach in a Fundy School environment.

        Unless, of course, the husband ordered the wife to do so. Wifely submission, after all.

        1. I knew a woman with an engineering degree from university of Michigan that taught at a school. She was divorced and tried to live on the pathetic salary they gave her. I told her more than once she should go get a real job but she wanted to “serve God” at the expense of taking care of her children.

        2. You might be surprised at the pull of religious fantasizing. I know several fairly bright (judging by their degrees) people who even interviewed for teaching jobs in fundy schools (mostly as a sort of retirement job, but still). Interestingly, they are not themselves true fundy (SBC and general evangelical). They both had some bizarre fantasy that working in a “Christian” environment would be better than a secular. Because apparently that is a viable logical construct.

    2. I read through the school site. The teachers- even high school- are all women, and the Principal is the head pastor, and asst. principal is also a pastor. The office administration are all women. Curriculum is Bob Jones and A Beka. The teachers all seemed to have degrees from BJU and s few other IFB schools. Basically, if was all IFB, even down to what shoes may be worn.

    3. Hah!! They need a good old-fashioned Sister School, run by a ’50s-vintage Mother Superior. That’s learn ’em to respect the Power of Women!

  9. After much contemplation, I believe the context of that banner has been hidden from our view. There seems to be more to it than meets the eye.


  10. Male leadership only? I am glad to see that this Christian Church is submitting to the finest standards of Islamic Fundamentalism. Allah sees it, and is pleased.

    1. I remember once a newspaper columnist contacted a bunch of TV preachers and tent revivalists and so forth who called themselves “Dr. So-and-So” to ask where their doctorates came from and what their dissertation subjects were. Predictably, most of the preachers didn’t answer, but the response he did get were extremely amusing.

      1. Was it here that ran the article about somebody contacting local religious leaders in order to add their dissertations to a university library and getting a death threat from the minions of a Real True Christian Phakey Doctor?

      2. I got mine for $50 online. But don’t tell my wife. She doesn’t submit. She would tell me that was a waste of money. Then I’d bring up how much she pays every 6 weeks for a trim and color ($100) and she would give me that glaring stare and I would mumble, “Well, it’s TRUE!” And she would remind me of how I spend $50 every 3 weeks on beef jerky and I’d say, “TERYAKI beef jerky!” Then I’d go back two decades and remind her of how much she spent on that makeup consultant kit that never panned out, and she would say that’s not fair, she said she was sorry.
        Then I’d say I’m sorry, then find out that’s not good enough. So I’d give her $50 and she’d be ok then.

        So unless you want me to be out another $50, try to keep this on the qt, ok?

        1. You are making me so glad that I am still single…at least the cat only glares at me when she doesn’t get what she wants!

        2. Hah!! When my husband says stuff like that, I remind him that he bought that lava lamp.

          Yes, really. A lava lamp.

  11. It’s been a long time since I’ve remarked or commented here – I’ve felt I had nothing to add. But I have to say that this is the weirdest church sign I’ve ever seen. Not the worst, just the strangest. Why would any church…I can’t even think why…

    1. Don’t put yourself down! It is good for you to chime in! It is good for us to see you around! We all need each other, you know.

    1. One could only hope God has a great sense of humor and greets at our death in a way that strips away all of the boxes we placed God in….so for the fundamentalist, God shows up as a woman….classic

  12. New to this site. As I was reading your comments, I thought to myself, “There are non fundy churches/movements who hold to ‘male leadership’. I may not agree with them, but many who hold this position don’t seem to be the wild-eyed fundies we see here. Maybe this church is being judged to hard.” So I snooped around and saw this on the “Bible Institute” page – “These are no “sissy” courses”. Since multiple dictionaries define “sissy” as “A boy or man regarded as effeminate”, please continue your barrage of comments on this misogynist pseudo-church.

    1. Poe’s Law strikes again. Every time you think a report of Fundies doing something outrageous has to be a parody or based on a misunderstanding, it turns out it’s understated, if anything.

      1. Understated because there’s no way to really explain the craziness without sounding crazy yourself. Of course I might be crazy?

        1. “… because there’s no way to really explain the craziness without sounding crazy yourself.”

          Yes, that’s it exactly.

    1. “There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to the promise.”

      Galatians 3: 28-29

      1. I Cor 14 shows Paul contradicting himself: As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silent in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be in submission, as the Law also says. If there is anything they desire to learn, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church.

        1. Sigh. Yes, that’s true. Although some scholars question whether those two passages were written by the same person.
          In any case, they were written to different churches, presumably for different reasons.

        2. Strange how Fundies latch on to passages like this yet ignore no much of the rest of the letter. Or say it is relevant only in certain contexts. The previous chapter is for those who think like Fundies.

        3. But anyone who has (a) actually read the Bible and (b) is honest about what the authors are saying without (c) trying to cram it all into some philosophical and internally-logically-consistent box will tell you (d) the authors of the Bible didn’t agree on much, and you can justify almost everything as “biblical” if you try hard enough (the current moronic idiocy coming out of the SBC on gender roles is virtually indistinguishable from the past moronic idiocy coming out of the SBC on slavery).

        1. Look at Lady Semp getting sassy. I don’t think there are enough sammies yet.

          I’ve got to figure out how to make a ball gag for a keyboard…….

    2. I’m still pretty conservative and prefer pastors to be men (BTW, I’ve rewritten this sentence several times and I just don’t know how to make it sound less offensive; I’m not trying to offend, just express my beliefs); however, I wouldn’t hold that to be a doctrine so essential that I’d make a huge sign about it and install it over the word “Gospel” on my church sign for all the community to see.

      1. Yeah, it’s something to have to get used to. I’m used to women bus drivers now.

      2. Thank you, PW. There’s a difference between beliefs and preferences.

        When the Episcopal Church was debating whether to ordain women, initially I was opposed. Then I realized that my opposition was simply because I had never seen one.

        A very stupid reason, for sure!

        in January 1977 the first woman ordained in the Episcopal Diocese of Ohio was to celebrate the Eucharist in the Cathedral in Cleveland. I went there, out of curiosity.

        She came out from the “wings,” and she was a pleasant-looking woman in her 30s or early 40s. I had seen enough of grumpy, sour-faced male clergy to immediately drop my opposition, and I never had a problem again with the “plumbing” of the priest.

      3. pastor’s wife – women can’t be pastors because then that means you could be married to yourself. 😉

    1. Fundies deal with Gay men in their own Biblical way. That is what leftover bricks from the latest building project are for.

      1. At least, that’s what would happen if the country’s Law didn’t get in the way….

        1. My California-dwelling friend describes his state’s ballot initiative process as “a machine for turning every bumper sticker into a law.”

        2. Very disturbing. The people who would support this think they are being true to the Bible (the more important first part of it) but I doubt if many of them will be truly consistent. The same chapter of Leviticus demands that those who commit adultery also be put to death. That’s sure to boost the sales of coffins. Even for Christians. But where does that leave people like Jack Schaap? He probably safe enough. I don’t think the Old Testament has anything to say about sex with children??

      1. Reminds me of the time my (mostly liberal) Methodist grandmother loudly proclaimed at a family gathering that she would leave the church as soon as they started ordaining “the gays.” There was a sort of stunned silence and then my uncle said, “I am sure they already have.”

  13. Dear SFL Reader:

    How is it that a guy with a Masters in Biblical exposition believes that life’s most pressing question is ‘where will I spend eternity?’

    Is this the burden of the Biblical message?

    Christian Socialist

    1. Good question – the major focus of the Bible is how we live THIS life

    2. Well, compared to this life, I suppose Eternity is a long time…. Anyway, one of the big beefs I had with the kind of Christianity I grew up with, was the way a Christian had to prove he/she *was* a Christian was to follow all The Rules, most of which seemed to be designed toake life Hell on Earth….

        1. I love C. S. Lewis’s words on eternity:

          “But for them it was only the beginning of the real story. All their life in this world and all their adventures in Narnia had only been the cover and the title page: now at last they were beginning Chapter One of the Great Story which no one on earth has read: which goes on for ever: in which every chapter is better than the one before.”

        2. Eternity can also be the hope of those who are always satisfied knowing they have done their best.

          the Admiral

  14. Why not make the subtext the written word? “Only Fundamentalists Need Attend”

    1. They probably aren’t Christian at all because they don’t read the King James Bible.

      1. Sure they do. They read a Spanish Bible translated directly from the original King James Version. 🙄

  15. Maybe we’re all being unfair to this church. Maybe they only mean that their leaders are from Male, the capital of the Maldives.
    They’re just trying to make any Maldivians who may be church-shopping feel welcome.

    1. Lol, that’s a good one! Let’s hope they know how to properly pronounce Male. 🙂

      1. It’s often written Malé, but I don’t know how to make letters with accent marks in this comment box (I cut and pasted the name just now).

  16. This is sort of off-topic, and I’m about to get mushy. So, consider yourself warned.

    Every now and then, I feel like an outcast/bad person because of {enter unapproved fundy action past or present}. All I have to do is come here, sanity is restored, and I carry on knowing it’s not me, it’s them.

    I love you all and I thank you.

    1. You’re not being mushy – you are being honest. I have had the same experience.

  17. Oh.My.Goodness.

    In the “Corporal Punishment System” section of the Elementary school handbook beginning on page 12, it lists who, what, when, where, why and how the family is to punish their children for school discipline issues.

    One part of the section:

    “When the parent has been given notice by way of a discipline letter, the spanking is to be administered by the parent in the privacy of their home within 24 hours […] or the child MAY NOT return to school. Three firm
    swats with a paddle are to be given.”


    What if I only give three moderate swats? Or two and a half firm ones? Or go to town and give four? What if I use my hand? Or a switch? Do they send a mandatory-use paddle home with the form?

    What if I just signed the form? How could they prove that I’d falsified it? Would I need to send photographic or video evidence? Would they want to look at the kid’s rear end to check that I had done the deed?

    Seriously, what kind of parent puts up with this kind of control freak bologna?

    For people who say they value independence (the I in IFB), they sure are promoting big-time infringement on the sphere of family life.

    1. That is the most bizarre thing I’ve heard in awhile! At my fundy school, they just paddled kids on site. Maybe there is a law against it where they are? Or they are looking to avoid a lawsuit?

      1. Get the parents to gang up on and bully the kids in your stead. Make their cooperation part of the right for the child to go to school there. The parents will feel “involved” and the won’t believe what their children are telling them about the place.

    2. That’s sickening. I went to a pretty insane Christian school, but mandatory spanking by parents is completely ridiculous and vaguely sickening.

      1. Jon — your avatar rocks! Can you tell me the name of the artwork or where you got it from? Thanks!

    3. Yea and what if they are foster kids and it’s illegal to spank them?

      the Admiral

  18. Their stupid sign makes my parents’ church’s “KJV 1611” sign seem pale in comparison!

  19. Hmmm….
    Maybe there is a Cooperative Baptist church nearby, and they are trying to set themselves apart?
    It reminds me of those “no ethanol” signs on some gas stations.

  20. Dang Saturnalia movement in Fundyland….smh. There has to be a balance. Black/White, Yin/Yang, Up/Down *sigh* Takes two to tango. The oldest trade in the history of the world has been the oppression and enslavement of women for some odd reason, and I will never understand it. Ever.

  21. Oh man. I must confess when the picture loaded and I saw MALE LEADERSHIP I laughed hysterically. It’s so in-your-face it’s ridiculously funny. But it is truly a shame.

  22. They should have had a sign like this outside of my former church. They literally practice *man-centered* religion. It’s been over six months since we’ve set foot there, but it still hurts when I think about the way they elevate men above women and children. They need to get to know The Man from Nazareth, and take a long hard look at how he treated women and children.

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