204 thoughts on “Today in Fundy History”

      1. The clip of Kim Jong Il’s mourners needs a little context. (Sorry if I’ve said this before):

        1. Only a few years before this scene, the “Dear Leader” had callously allowed millions of his own people to starve to death.

        2. People who were deemed not to have displayed sufficient grief were sentenced to “reeducation” in hard labor camps:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxMrq6YTgbQ

    1. Fundamentalism is the heart of any dictatorship. It is hero-worship plus doctrine over anything else. Just as Stalin was revered in Russia and Hitler in Germany, so fundy leaders vie to gain that prominence that will gain them awe and worship.

      Move over, Mary, Mother of our Lord! Jack Hyles is in Heaven!

      A good look at any of the major ministries shows an intolerance of any thinking or expression that makes the Man more human or the Ministry less divine. This intolerance of freedom of speech carries over into their political dealings as they assay to squash political freedoms of their enemies.

      IF the possibility arose for the US to become a true theocracy with Pastors and Ministries allowed to enforce “Christian Law” upon the public, they would readily seize the opportunity.

      1. They would seize the opportunity, but they would fight among themselves about whose version of “Christian law” was to be enforced.

        One of the factors causing the collapse of dictatorships is that hero worship and sound doctrine are usually at odds with each other. Since the leader doesn’t follow the doctrine consistently, the believers start to doubt, and eventually become dissidents or defectors.

        1. Very true. But the outcome of such a struggle would depend on a few things. War, natural disasters, ability to enforce dictates with permanent solutions, etc. As long as there is freedom to hold your opinion in any degree of safety, dictatorship cannot stand very long.

          I wonder. Think about a dystopian future. Some avian flu has wiped out 90% of the world population. Economies have collapsed. But Fundamentalism has gotten stronger. The heirs to Jack Hyles, Arlin Horton and Bob III are vying for power.

          A novel based on that idea could be plenty fun!

        2. That scenario may be backward.
          That is, first the science-deniers get control, as a consequence of which 90% of the world’s population dies of preventable causes.

        3. I think the more likely scenario is the science deniers don’t get their vaccines and die of preventable diseases and then the world is less a few thousand of these folks.

        4. I think the more likely scenario is that the science deniers sue the state of kentucky for religious discrimination after the state rescinds millions in tax breaks for Christian Disneyland after the science deniers break their word and hire on the basis of religious affiliation…

          Oh wait, that is real life.

      2. IF the possibility arose for the US to become a true theocracy with Pastors and Ministries allowed to enforce “Christian Law” upon the public, they would readily seize the opportunity.

        “GOD WILLS IT!”, of course.

        During that Congressional gridlock last year, guess who was calling the loudest for a Military Coup from their pulpits? Especially when I remember Reagan-era brags from those same pulpits how NOW so many of our military are Born-Again Bible-Believing Christians(TM). Maybe the Reverends figured after the Coup the military would hand power over to the Reverends?

    2. And they all wept much, and fell on Paul’s neck, and kissed him,
      Sorrowing most of all for the words which he spoke, that they should see his face no more.

      When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping who came with her, he groaned in his spirit, and was troubled, And said, Where have you laid him? They said unto him, Lord, come and see. Jesus wept.

      Yeah it is strange for Christians to weep and mourn over the loss of loved ones. Strange, well, at least in “mock-Fundy-land” it is.

        1. “fundamentalists” (ALL, one broad brush) follow NONE (another broad brush)… So you know ALL fundamentalists? and you know that ALL of them follow NONE of those verses?
          I try to live my life staying as far away as all, never, only, etc, unless it is dealing with God Himself. I can never know ALL things about ALL people of ANY group. Apparently YOU can.

        2. I did not delve deeply into the subject and need not do so. To know that anyone is, in fact, “worshipping” an icon is to, in fact, know his/her heart, and that is impossible. Many of you would be the first to say catholics do not worship Mary and the Saints, yet what they actually do comes far closer to worship than simply having a painting in honor of someone beloved in your life and being mournful of their passing. I don’t know the story of it. Perhaps an artist in the church chose to do it on his own in memorial? Who know? Do you? I doubt any of them were worshipping a pastor, but, unlike you, I make no claims of KNOWING it.

        3. You’re kidding, right? You think we are going to deny that those are examples of idolatry, and try to justify them?

          Of course not. Idolatry exists all over, including in Brian. People justify it with all sorts of arguments you don’t find acceptable when it is *them*, but that you accept when it is you or yours.

          I would not kiss the Pope’s ring. I like the man. He is better than any other Pope in memory about speaking for the poor. He has reduced the pomp and pageantry of his position a huge amount over his what his predecessors had. But give a medieval gesture of worship and loyalty? No thanks.

          How desperate are you, Brian?

        4. B, You don’t know have to look at someone’ heart when their actions spell worship. Daniel didn’t bow down physically or in his heart. But you could pretty much tell that all of the other people who were bowed down were worshipping Neb’s god. You are in denial.

        5. B, You don’t know have to look at someone’s heart when their actions spell worship. Daniel didn’t bow down physically or in his heart. But you could pretty much tell that all of the other people who were bowed down were worshipping Neb’s god. You are in denial.

        6. Sorry, B, but just because you choose to conflate deviant and psychologically damaging behavior with “mourning the loss of a loved one” or Bible verses that happen to mention weeping does not mean that they are equivalent, or even similar. Frankly, if you have to be told that the picture above is unhealthy, then the likelihood of us having an adult or rational conversation is probably statistically unlikely.

        7. It’s a little strange to say that when you see people doing something, you have to “know their hearts” to know if they are doing it or not.

          If I see a man stabbing a woman in the heart on the street, it’s true that I don’t know if he mistakenly believed that was the right way to administer accupunture to cure her headaches. But it’s still fair to say he killed her.

          Maybe a person putting a plucked, dressed chicken in an oven is trying to bring the chicken back to life. But I’m not out of line to say that he’s cooking a chicken for food.

          And when I see people making offerings, singing hymns, and doing all other kinds of acts of worship to a giant image of a man, it’s fair to say they are worshipping that image.

        8. B, or should I call you Brian? Or how abour d-bag? Since that is what you act like. Why are you so butt-hurt about what we say? You remind so many of us of what we were like at one time. And most of us regret the fact that we acted like assholes to other people. The way you act. But now we act differently. It is waht happens when a person experiences freedom from the bondage of fundamentalism in any form, especially religious.

        9. A ManaGAWD who not only had his mistress on the payroll, but in an adjacent office with a connecting door behind a curtain.

          A ManaGAWD whose mistress also lived next door, again with a connecting gate between their backyards.

          A ManaGAWD whose son(s) of course inherited his megachurch — until every one of them (plus his shaft-polishing son-in-law who married a daughter who could not inherit herself) crashed & burned in either a child abuse or sex scandal. Game of CHRISTIAN Thrones, anyone?

        10. b, You went against the “fundamentals” of SFL…..they are very similar to what they left……they allow no one to speak or think differently than them, even as you have thoughtfully pointed out discrepancies in this logic….You are thinking freely…you must buy into SFL groupthink in order to fit in.

          When I found SFL about 4 years ago, I thought I had found a welcoming place to heal wounds inflicted by legalism, and it did for a time…..but quickly I saw how you had to “buy all the way in” you couldn’t express thoughts outside of “their” box……that’s when I realized they had traded in one set of dogmas for another.

        11. Greg, I don’t know where the hurt lies, and hope I am not a part of it. If I am, please tell me.

          But I don’t think SFL is anything close to a monolith. I don’t see a box you have to remain in. Opinions differ, and people feel free mostly to state theirs. There was some disagreement over whether the mega-picture and the bronze statue of Hyles demonstrated idolatry at the church. People had their reasons to agree or disagree, even with what appeared to be a consensus.

          Nothing personal, unless you choose to make it that way.

          In any case, I wish you and us peace. There will be disagreements, but we can get along together even with those.

          And it isn’t like we would excommunicate you. Unless you get abusive. We’ve had a few of them. I don’t see you going there.

        12. greg, this site a roundtable with a diversity of voices. Like yourself, I’m of the minority opinion on certain issues, but I appreciate all the voices here–yours included. Anyway, post a dissenting opinion on a typical Fundy website and see how long your comment stays on the board. Getting back on topic, Brian’s main problem here doesn’t seem so much to be that he disagrees with most of the other commenters: it’s that he comes across as an obnoxious, fingerpointing scold. And this is just my own opinion, but, on this particular issue, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. I had the opportunity to observe Jack Hyles and his institution for years and, well, if the Stacy Adams shoe fits, wear it. To wrap things, up, I’d hate to see you stop commenting. It would be a genuine shame if this site were to degenerate into the monolithic echo chamber you seem to think it is.

        13. Let’s not forget greg has gotten himself banned from the forum. Why? Not because he had a dissenting view. No, greg got banned because he was abusive to people and acted like an obnoxious jerk to people. So now he posts random comments on the blog playing the victim. Do not fall for his persecuted personality.

        14. As I mentioned before, one of the hardest things a person trying to come out of fundamentalism has to learn is how to stop thinking and acting like a fundamentalist.

          As a fundamentalist, I thought I was being kind by being “straightforward” (otherwise known as abusive). I thought the criticisms of people about me and my faith or those I looked up to were misplaced and mean. But I thought I could be harsh in my criticisms of others. Rejecting what I said was rejecting the truth, while my rejection of what others said was being discerning and wise.

          Now somehow I have to learn how to reject fundamentalism in a non-fundy-fashion. It isn’t easy. I don’t just want the targets to change. I want my attitudes and actions to change. It isn’t easy.

          I about feel like Paul in Romans 7.

          I understanding the essential hypocrisy of fundamentalism, I still have a problem escaping it. Yes, I get harsh at times. I criticize others. I reject philosophies and theologies I disagree with — but at least I am less convinced of the inspiration of the Holy Me. There are fewer idols (maybe).

          And who knows? Maybe I am just as bad as I was beforehand. I have left certainty for doubt, verity for the knowledge of my own ignorance and need to keep learning, and trust for wariness. I am in an uncomfortable position. God’s trumpet produces a weak, wavering, uncertain sound. The faithful on the battlefield are fighting each other, so I am getting out of the way.

          It shows that Fundamentalism simply tries to sanctify the flesh. It is still flesh. There may be no real Spirit other than in our wishful thinking.

          Still, I am going to accept Puddleglum’s take on things. There may be no Narnia, no sun, no Aslan. Maybe the Witch is right. But I am going to act as if they do and look for them. No more silver chairs or white pianos! No more lists of rules or shaming or MoGs. I will allow myself to make mistakes, apologize for them and keep on trying. But I will not be shackled to fundamentalism ever again.

        15. I’d like to point to the example of the commentor “Guilt Ridden.”
          Guilt Ridden has a very conservative viewpoint on many issues, which is often quite different from mine. But he (she?) manages to state those views without attacking any other commentors, so nobody takes offense, and we’re still friends.

        16. greg got banned from the forum, because he didn’t follow the SFL script…..I have NEVER carried on, or even been as “abusive” as scorpio is being to me and “B” in this very thread!…..the fact that you aren’t “called” on your behavior “proves” my point!

          I challenge anyone to go back and look at any and every comment I EVER said on the forum. (if you do Darrel, put the comment that I was responding to for context)

          Btw, I have apologized for a few of my comments!

          But my infractions have been “very” mild compared to what is allowed by those that follow the SFL script!

          I even recall a low-rent female radio personality being allowed to physically threaten people on the forum!

          But of course if calvinism is true, I was “predestined” to do all of these things…so don’t blame me, blame god…..couldn’t resist Big Gary!

        17. Greg, Can you detail for me the “SFL script”? I have never seen it. I can’t describe it.

          The only rules I use in a place like this are basic sandbox rules. Play nice. Be fair. Share your toys. Make up if an accident happens. Don’t throw sand in other people’s eyes. And if you have to get rid of s**t, go to the bathroom. Don’t do it – or do-do it – in the box where others are playing.

          I am not saying you don’t have a grievance. I know you feel one. But is it possible others have one as well? Might their perspectives be valid also?

          Just something to think about. But I would like to see that script.

        18. You see greg, this is the problem with computers and the internet, things that you write don’t go away. No context is needed. Everyone can read through this thread from about 4 years ago. There are enough new folks here who never got the chance to meet the real greg. They only know this pitiful persecuted persona you are putting on here.

          http://www.sflforums.com/showthread.php?tid=4825

        19. scorpio – You are a very strange bird….I specifically “asked” for someone to go back and post my “bad” comments, (thanks btw) then you act like you are Mr “I spy” because you found & posted some of my commentary…go figure!….But I love what you chose to post, it confirms EXACTLY what I have been saying!…..Your density level seems even deeper than I first imagined! Ut-0h! ….I may well be kicked off the blog now for being so derogatory to you! But never mind that you have called “B”. a… d bag, insinuate he’s an a_ _ hole,…. but carry-on you SFLers, Ya’ll have a very small world, just like the small world of fundamentalists you left, but if SFL makes you happy, and gives you someone to talk to, carry on!

        20. greg, it is not that hard to find old threads on the forum, oh wait, that is unless you are banned. Sorry. I actually enjoyed reading that old thread. I forgot how many people really were fed up with your shenanigans.
          Anywho, keep stopping by and posting your weekly snarky comment about Calvinism. You really should mix it up a bit though. I miss your irrational tirades against the Catholics, TEH GAYZ and liberals.

        21. greg, surely you know by now that I am not a Calvinist.
          Unless your definition of “Calvinist” is “anybody who disagrees with greg.”
          I don’t have any special fight with Calvinists, but I don’t believe what they believe.

      1. My bad Big Gary….I used to “discuss” calvinism on here with someone very vigorously, thought it was you….I wouldn’t say “debate” because that would infer that there is any legitimacy to the man-made doctrine of calvinism, and there is not….so sorry!

      1. Absurd, whereas you know in N Korea they either are worshipping the man or doing so out of fear for their lives, you know Bible-believing Christians do not worship a man, but are simply setting up a temporary memorial. No different than what is done by so many every day for lost loved ones, it just happens to be on a large scale since there are so many people in the church paying their respects, but haters gotta hate.

        http://www.breakingnews.com/item/2014/12/16/photo-australian-prime-minister-tony-abbott-and-w/

        http://www.breakingnews.com/item/2014/12/16/photo-australian-prime-minister-tony-abbott-and-w/

        http://www.charlestondailymail.com/article/20140907/ARTICLE/140909442

        https://snapshotsandsojourns.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/img_0271.jpg

        But since they are “fundies” we must mock on and denigrate everyone we feel deserves it.

        1. Imagine! Brian is defending fundamentalism’s adoption of practices they always point out as idolatry using the “Everybody Does It!” Argument!

          Yes, he would follow the worldly off a cliff, because everyone does it! It isn’t walking off a cliff, it is enjoying freedom from gravity to the fullest!

          Hypocrisy, thy name is Fundamentalism. And Brian is thy Prophet!

        2. I said ‘looks like’ N. Korea and I meant it.

          We have worship of a human and raising him to almost divine status goimg on. I’ve read enough of Hyles supporters gushing on the man that is does become straight up worship.

          And there is a DEFINITE gear factor for the flock. Ask anyone who has survived extreme fundamentalism to testify to that.

          I’ve studied North Korea and the IFB church extensively. The parallels are downright spooky.

        3. Imagine! Brian is defending fundamentalism’s adoption of practices they always point out as idolatry using the “Everybody Does It!” Argument!

          I remember that exact same argument years ago, from a sexual predator who tried to get into my pants:
          “Everybody’s Bi, you’re just in denial. Everybody’s doing It!”
          Didn’t work then, and don’t work now.

        4. Does anyone know how old this picture is? Because, after 14 years, it can’t be called a “temporary memorial” any more, unless the picture is at least a decade old. And, if it is a temporary memorial like in the links, why was the huge picture painted while he was alive? So strange…

        5. Janet, I gather from other comments here that:
          1. The giant mural was painted while Jack Hyles was alive, so it wasn’t a “memorial” per se;
          2. The photo and the YouTube of public mourning are from soon after Hyles’ demise (2001);
          3. The mural has been painted over sometime between 2001 and now (2015). “Temporary” doesn’t seem like a proper description of the painter’s intention, since it was done with regular paint on bricks, but it appears to be gone now, as are many other things that were around in 2001.

        1. I watched the first four minutes.
          It seems to me that those people are not halfway up to North Korean standards of weeping and wailing.
          Maybe they need to go to a Jack Schaap marriage seminar for reeducation?

        2. Instructing children to speak to the dead (with whom they had no personal relationship) – nothing weird about that

        3. From 2001? So he had just died, then? How long did the shrine stay up?

          A funeral should have been sufficient. Some people were more upset over this man’s death than were upset at the deaths of their own family members, I’d guess. Certainly no one else got this kind of treatment.

          But this does appear to be 2001. This is the church web site today: http://www.fbchammond.com.

          There is, of course, a Jack Hyles Memorial Auditorium in their great multi-building Campus. The “What We Believe” section of the website has “We believe in the King James Version of the Bible” as the very first sentence to the first paragraph, titled “We believe the Bible is the Word of God.”

        4. The statement about the Bible is false.
          They don’t believe in the King James Version, or any Version of the Bible.
          They believe in the teachings, heresies, and delusions of Jacks Hyles and Schaap.

        5. Heh. When I mentioned reeducation at a Schaap Marriage Seminar, I didn’t know how accurate that was.
          At the link rtgmath kindly provided, the top featured event is … the 2015 Marriage Retreat, apparently going on right now. No word on whether or not it will again be based on Jack Schaap’s book “Marriage: The Divine Intimacy.”

        6. That “First Baptist Church” looks like a WalMart warehouse with a Little Country Church facade & steeple tacked onto the front.

          And a ten-meter tall shrine to their REAL Personal LOORD and Savior, Founder Great Leader.

          Trading in Nork imagery for something more Biblical, will the picture in this shrine come to life and command that all who do not take his Mark shall be killed?

  1. I remember like yesterday the announcement was made at PCC (church service or chapel? I can’t remember which…). The girl I was with at the time was from a Hyles church and was so happy that PCC made a respectful announcement of his passing.
    Looking back, I am glad I didn’t end up with her!

  2. I used to sit in my friend’s living room with his parents and listen to Hyles’s sermon tapes (that came from the office next door to Jack’s office, you know, the one with the hidden door). My friend’s mother wore long dresses and refused to cut her hair. She got most of her standards from Hyles. As an adult, I find it interesting that Jack’s wife has her hair cut and styled. Ironic.

    Just for old time’s sake I tuned in to one of his sermons online. Talk about the king of humble-brag. I also noticed he tried hard not to compliment his people too much as they had a tendency to get prideful. More irony.

    What a charlatan!

    1. That thing is huge! It might be nice to have a photograph in the lobby or something, but that thing is the size of a house.

      And talking of hair – I can’t work out what she did – it looks like a peacock tail.

  3. I remember being at my Fundy church in Michigan, it was a Wednesday night, I’m not sure if he died that day or before but that’s when I heard about it. It was as if everyone was in mourning and none of us even knew him. He’d preached there a few times but that was all.

    1. Black leather for riding your rebel motorbikes are approved as long as the members you ride with are all from your church. After all, suit coat and tie have long been married to backwoods evangelism, haymen? Nothin better than to reminisce about the ol’ sawdust trail!

      That is, until the costs of the hobby start cutting down on what is put into the offering plate.

  4. And yours will surely follow you. This site has become spiritually revolting.

    “Finally, be all of one mind, having compassion one with another, love as brethren, be tender hearted, be courteous: not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but on the contrary blessing; knowing that you are unto this called, that you should inherit a blessing. For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile: Let him turn away from evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and pursue it. ”

    “neither dishonest words nor foolishness nor low jesting, which are not convenient, but rather giving of thanks.”

    “Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lies in you, live peaceably with all men. Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says the Lord. Therefore if your enemy hungers, feed him; if he thirsts, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head.”

    Mock of ages, this site is, it just mocks in self-rightness

    1. Well hello, B!

      Let me remind you of the boomerang. And the law of sowing and reaping. AKA, “They started it.”

      You cannot with a straight face tell me that you have never, ever mocked those with whom you have significant disagreement. If you are a fundamentalist, mocking is half the game!

      How do you talk about politics? You mock the liberals. How do you talk about “mainstream denominations”? You mock them. Hyles, Dr. Bobs, Shapps, Hortons, and all specialize in mocking.

      So get off your low horse. You have nothing to complain about. You have no fingers left with which to point. Fundamentalists follow NONE of those verses you so nicely quoted. None. Nada. Zip. Nor do you, apparently. We all learned well at the feet of our masters.

      1. It’s BRIAN, rtg. I was just too lazy to type my whole name. Yep, me again. I am wearying of getting the constant mocking e-mail updates from this site. I’m surprised you did not know it was me.

        1. Brian, you have the same song, second verse of any detractor that comes here. You aren’t very original.

          And apparently you don’t learn your lessons very well, either.

          There are people here. Good people. Treat them with respect and you might get some. Act like a gadfly and you will get the attention such a pest warrants.

          However, thank you for letting us know who to attribute this to. A mockumentary dedicated to you will begin in due time. Or not.

        2. If you don’t like the “constant mocking email updates from this site” get them cancelled. Simple.

        3. Yep, that’s what I was thinking. Weary of SFL? By the way, love the KJV language, is that on purpose or do you really going around talking like that? As I was saying, Weary of SFL? Get thee hence, then.

        4. Brian or B, you say you are too lazy to type out your first name, which has, at last count, only five letters.

          Yet you have the energy to type out long posts in support of Hyles & Co.

          Interesting.

        5. Brian if you don’t like what we say, dont keep coming round to listen. You will be able to live within your precious little ifb bubble with no fear of it ever being punctured, and the rest of us christians who have to live in the real world won’t be tempted to waste time and energy trying to shout through your soundproof head. Win-win. We will miss you though. Every time you, and people like you, post, you remind us why this site exists and why it is so important.

        6. Yep, that’s what I was thinking. Weary of SFL? By the way, love the KJV language, is that on purpose or do you really going around talking like that?

          Because God spake in Kynge Jaymes Englyshe, dropping the KJV direct from Heaven just like he did the Koran in Meccan Arabic.

        7. Brian or B, you say you are too lazy to type out your first name, which has, at last count, only five letters.

          Yet you have the energy to type out long posts in support of Hyles & Co.

          That energy is only for denouncing blasphemy against his REAL God.

    2. B, I recently read several transcripts of Hyle’s sermons….some of which were considered his “greatest hits”. I opted not to listen to them, as I can tolerate only so much yelling.

      I had an incredible difficult time finding anything that resembled Jesus, or Paul or any other apostle for that matter. What I DID find was self-righteous ranting, pride, arrogance, anger, hate–all masquerading as godliness.

      Do we mock? Yeah, and maybe we go to far sometimes, but we also have all had experiences with fundamentalists like Hyles who have taken the name of Jesus and thrown it in the mud in the name of their own ego and empire building.

        1. Like filking “How Great Thou Art” into “How Great *I* Am”?

          At which point, the Great Image at the top is right in line. Will they install a little altar with pinches of incense before it?

    3. B, your words really shook me up, to be quite honest. I hadn’t realized how cold-hearted I had become. Please forgive me. This Sunday, I shall go to an old-fashioned Bible-believing church and will walk the aisle and rededicate my life to fundamentalism. I also repent of not voting Republican, not spending at least 10-20 hours working for the church for free, and tithing to a liberal church. I shall put away childish things and walk like a man, fast as I can, walk like a man from you-hoo-hoo-hoo!

      Please pray for me as I sometimes slip back into my old mocking ways.

    4. Oh, yay! The “stringing random bible verses together to try and make a point” game! I can play, too. You know, when the Israelites were committing idolatry, Elijah mocked Ba’al mercilessly, and the priests along with him. When fundies commit idolatry, it is all too fair to mock in the same manner. And yeah, stop deflecting dude. The real burr under your saddle is that the Hyles crowd is guilty of blatant idolatry. The end.

      1. Oh, yay! The “stringing random bible verses together to try and make a point” game!

        The word is “duckspeak”, superlative form “doubleplusduckspeak”. Reciting the Party Line without using a single neuron above the brainstem.
        Stimulus, Response.
        Stimulus, Response.
        Stimulus, Response.

        And as for “stringing random Bible verses together”, does anyone remember the Calormenes quoting the Poets from Chronicles of Narnia: A Horse and his Boy? It Is Written, It Is Written, It Is Written?

    5. Brian, have you ever been a student at HAC or a member of First Baptist Church, Hammond? I graduated from that “college” and am of the opinion that there were church members and students there whose reverence for this man crossed the line into idolatry. Even worse than that, Jack Hyles loved and encouraged the adulation.

      On the subject of the irritation and outrage you seem to feel when you visit this site, Paul’s comments make me think of a joke:

      A man walks into a doctor’s office and proceeds to contort himself into an unnatural position.
      Guy to doctor- “Doc, it hurts when I do this!”
      Doctor- “Don’t do that!”

      Joking aside, seriously guy, what are you trying to accomplish by visiting SFL and posting your comments?

  5. Was this video made in 2001 (noticing the hair styles) or is that hideous painting brought out every year?

    It must have taken quite some time to make that painting.

  6. Serious question, preferably someone from this sphere. What is the general consensus within this camp to explain away the mountains of evidence against Hyle’s character…the secretary mistress, the door between their offices, forcing her husband to live in a garage, buying her a house, covering up for his son’s sexual affairs, and possibly even his involvement in the death of a child. Not to mention the accusations from his mistress’ daughter and his own daughter.

    I mean, after a while, doesn’t even the dumbest of people realize that there is a whole lot of dang smoke for their not to be a fire in there somewhere?

    Forget about the man’s crappy doctrine and how he made people gawk after him. How do people in the100 percent Hyles camp explain all of this crap away? I have never understood this mentality.

      1. The secret to a successful con job is to get the mark so invested in the con (financially and emotionally) that he can’t back out. Not even when he knows he’s being taken to the cleaners. Because that would requiring him to admit to himself that he got conned.

        1. That investment aspect is so true and so sad. The cost to get out can be higher than the disgust felt at staying in.

    1. The things used to create this mentality are things common to cults. If people can believe that it is right to give poisoned Kool Aid to their children, it is not hard to see how they can believe that what they were told by Hyles was the real truth. Create a “them versus us,” mentality, keep people and their money totally wrapped in the church and church business, make sure the world outside seems scary/untruthful/hateful/dirty/evil and keep this up for years, black can seem white. It happens because the deceiver is always 10 steps ahead of the deceived.

      1. I agree wholeheartedly, but I’m wondering…do Hyles followers think that they are all lies and that every accuser is out to get him or what? I’m just wondering what the consensus is there.

        1. Speaking as a former Mormon, that’s basically how people of that religion treat the memory of Joseph Smith. Even though the church now has essays up admitting that he was technically guilty of child rape and did things like send guys on missions so he could sex their wives.

          The dood was a narcissist, and prophesied that his name “shall be had for good and ill” throughout the whole world. So when people speak ill of him, they’re just proving him right! Satan is using them to tear down the works of God and besmirch the good names of his leaders.

          It also helps if you can grossly mischaracterize the people who are upset with him or other leaders, to the point where it’s always over petty things. Or that even if it’s not, God still wants you to support him “despite his weakness.” Which, you’re not allowed to ever call them out for having those “weaknesses,” and if you “choose to be offended” because of them that just makes you a bitter and angry apostate.

          Even if he raped your daughter.

        2. Jewelfox, joseph smith had crossed my mind and I was thinking about the similarities. The ironic thing is how IFB preachers often decry the likes of Joseph Smith or other religious leaders yet they adopt many of their ways: unquestioning loyalty, separation, control, and yes, sometimes illegal activity.

    2. They push out the negative reality and focus only all the nice things he claimed to do, or perhaps that one thing he did for them personally. Some of those things were actually quite questionable, but they were in a warped place that twisted it into good. For example, he would give the young college ladies money or a new dress, which they interpret as him being generous. But consider the sick devotion he demanded in return: (singing) “We love you, pastor!” They were brought up believing blind loyalty is a supremely good trait (remember the staffer who said he would drink poison if Hyles told him to?) and that those who speak badly about the manogawd are the worst sort of people.

      1. But consider the sick devotion he demanded in return: (singing) “We love you, pastor!”

        You mean the “Hymn to Boopsie Woopsie” he required teenage girls in his school to sing upon his arrival?

    3. Larry, the various charges are addressed as follows:

      secretary mistress: vile rumors spread about Dr Hyles by her husband to destroy his (Dr Hyles’) ministry. No proof has ever been given.

      door between offices: two defenses here: (1) The door didn’t exist. (2) Offices built at that time ALL had dual entrances, and a door doesn’t make a man guilty of adultery.

      forcing her husband to live in a garage: We have only the word of the husband that it is so. Denied by others.

      Buying her a house: Dr Hyles said he loaned her money after her divorce to buy a condominium (not a house). He usually spouted off about how generous he is to others, and says that this was not out of line.

      Cover-up of son’s sexual affairs: Claims he never knew about it

      Accusations from mistress’s daughter: Children of divorced parents usually take one side or the other. Her children are backing their father.

      Own daughter (not sure if you meant Linda, his daughter, or Paula, his own daughter-in-law): Paula destroyed her own marriage by her big mouth, and was just taking revenge at the time. Linda is clearly just bitter about her life… how can anyone believe her charges when there were so many “facts” that she got wrong.

      Smoke vs fire: Point out all of the great things Hyles has done, and say that every great man has his share of detractors, and this is no different.

      Basically, it comes down to that the fanatical followers of Hyles refuse to believe the facts; claiming that all accusers are just bitter people out to get him, and are twisting things. They point to the success (again) of various ministries and say that they can show 100 people helped for every 1 that we can find that were hurt.

    4. Ask Reichsminister Albert Speer how he “arranged his mind” to see nothing wrong with the National Socialist regime when he was personally benefiting from the patronage of Der Fuehrer.

      1. It’s irrelevant what Obama was doing back then. The point of the video is that in 1970 Jack Hyles said that a “negro” was alive who was the antichrist and would form a tyrannical one-world government, and the video says that “negro” was Obama.
        So if Obama is going to control everything in the entire world, I think he’d better hurry up and get started.

        1. Blatant racism, of course. But the funny thing is that Obama couldn’t do as rotten a job of managing things as they and their political cronies have done.

          And no matter what your political leanings are, at least social welfare is commanded in the a Scriptures and capitalism is considerably restricted. Unrestricted capitalism and excessive wealth is condemned.

          The only way I see that they have been able to sell the idea that God loves their conservative ideas is by making sure their congregations don’t read the Bible and don’t really know much about it. Preach on as little Scripture as possible, but make sure you “quote” a lot of snippets out of context to make people think you are including lots and lots of Bible.

          It’s a lot of marketing. It is all in how you package what you are selling, how you create the product so you can sell more product but give less value. A “pink slime” “chicken” nugget Spiritual Happy Meal? Spiritual obesity snack foods? High fructose corn syrupy Water of Life?

          Then keep them busy with useless activities as bus ministries and endless meetings and organizational themes so they don’t have any time to really exercise spiritually.

          Fundamentalism as a spiritual junk food and corporation-focused lifestyle?

        2. Agreed. It’s a stretch to say (as some have) that state socialism is mandated by the Bible, but there’s no Biblical support for capitalism as it is currently constructed, either.

        3. While I support state socialism to a degree, I won’t say that the Bible mandates it. In fact, the Bible writers are unfamiliar with any large governmental system other than monarchy and equally unfamiliar with smaller group governmental system other than a tribal culture. The concept of money wasn’t well developed until the New Testament. Marriage was a contract between families.

          It was a time we would find strange.

          But property reverted back to the original family lines every Jubilee. Or was supposed to, at any rate. Hebrew slaves were to be released every seventh year. Debts were to be forgiven. The edges of the fields were to remain unreaped by the owners, left to the poor to glean. A village society cannot easily hold the very very rich and the poor in the same group. Equalizing mechanisms were necessary for a functioning group. The Book of Ruth has a lot of descriptions of that structure in action.

          In the writings of the Prophets, injustice and inequity were major themes back of pronouncing God’s Judgment. James is equally harsh against injustice and inequality. In the Revelation, God’s Wrath falls particularly spectacularly on the wealthiest.

          I think it is clear that God is interested in the plight of the poor and bereft. Applying those principles as a society can’t be as wrong as the conservatives wish to insist.

        4. That’s a good way to put it: Equalizing mechanisms were built into the system … which is often true in tribal societies. And the prophets railed against attempts to subvert or misuse those mechanisms.

  7. Having not grown up in IBF craziness, every once in a while I think maybe y’all just exaggerating just a wee little bit. Then…. there are posts like this one, that kick me right in the teeth and make me realize, I probably don’t get 1/2 of what y’all had to experience. This one is just awful and beyond any form of normal human logic.

  8. Actually, the mural was painted before Hyles death. It was put there in ’99 to commemorate his 40 years of ruling FBC. So, it took almost 2 years to achieve “shrine” status. It was removed at least 5 years ago, because I think it was gone before the last Pastors School I went to in 2010 (probably due to fading, not because of a change of heart). Idolatry is still alive and well there though, because the statue of Hyles & Wife still remains at the front entrance of the college, and people still put Reece’s Cups and Diet Dr. Peppers there (supposedly his favorite snack) on days like this.

    1. This is inappropriate, but your comment brings a joke to mind:

      In attempting to increase peanut yields, botanists spliced genetic material from flowers as well as monkeys into that legume’s DNA. They ended up with a Rhesus-Peanut-Buttercup.

    2. Entropy has set in over the centuries.
      From bending the knee and burning the pinch of incense to the Image of Caesar to bending the knee and making food offerings of Reese’s Cups and libations of Diet Dr Pepper to the Image of Boopsie Woopsie.

      1. “Augustus was proclaimed a god after his death. Caligula wants to be a god while he’s still alive to enjoy it.”
        — Aliester Cooke, commentary to the BBC production of “I, Claudius”

  9. When you hear the sound of the horn, flute, zither, lyre, harp, pipes, White Pianos and other musical instruments, bow to the ground to worship King Jack’s golden mural. Anyone who refuses to obey will immediately be thrown into a blazing furnace

    1. I can’t begin to count all the violations of both flag etiquette and religious protocol they committed by shoving the folded-up flag into a corner of the casket that way.

    1. I looked up the romancingvictims site, and I admit to being confused.

      The point of the site is what?

      It seems to be something of a stream-of-consciousness (or stream of unconsciousness!) hodgepodge on the idea of real victims versus fake victims and real identities versus fake identities and whether or not the GRACE report is worth the paper it is printed on and …..

      If anyone can clear it up for me, I would appreciate it.

      At least SFL has a modicum of organization to it. The threads evolve from a point that Darrell starts us out with. There is a fairly logical and standard threaded topic arrangement. And no one here would think to claim that this was a library of facts about fundamentalism. No, just a collection of perceptions and venting and people seeking connections through sharing experiences and comments — having some fun in the process.

      I wouldn’t challenge the truthfulness of anyone here sharing their own experiences — well, if someone claimed Tripplestix had turned into a demon in front of them I might then. But perhaps the largest indicator that we have left fundamentalism is that we can share, laugh, moan, groan, agree and disagree and be friends, even with different perspectives.

      Can’t get much more different than me, I suppose! Math nerd and all around (too round) … uhh, well, ….

      (Back to the subject! Quick!) But I wouldn’t write a tell-all book about fundamentalism and use this blog as reference material. The “Web” is just not the best source for fact-based materials. We use aliases. I’d still post like I do without them, but ….

      So I guess I wonder what this “romancingvictims” site is really about.

      One of the biggest difficulties those of us coming out of fundamentalism have is learning how to stop being and acting fundamentalist. Sometimes all we achieve is modifying our fundamentalism just enough to convince us that we have escaped, when all we’ve really done is just budded off another branch on the tree. Maybe that is what that site’s author has wound up doing.

      Or maybe not. I would gladly accept clarification.

      1. I looked very briefly at that site too. My brain felt boiled. All this justifying, qualifying, turning inside out and examining, denying, defending….. all of this reminds me of a tempest in a teapot. It is all nothingness. The world goes on. It’s a big world. All these little protections of an idea, a way of life, whatever, it is all artificial. I have listened to people quote scripture endlessly and earnestly in defence of the stupidest things. Things that no-one else in the world cares about. How much energy has been expended on trying to make sure that ”Thou” is always used instead of ”You” when praying? I wonder if Ebola victims care about that. I wonder if genocide victims care. Sound and fury.

      2. It seems to be something of a stream-of-consciousness (or stream of unconsciousness!) hodgepodge on the idea of real victims versus fake victims and real identities versus fake identities and whether or not the GRACE report is worth the paper it is printed on and ….

        No, it seems to be a Conspiracy Kook Rant. On the level of “COMMUNIST GANGSTER COMPUTER GOD ON THE DARK SIDE OF THE MOON PARROTING PUPPET GANGSTER ASSASSINS WITH FRANKENSTEIN EARPHONE RADIO CONTROLS!!!!!!!”

      3. “One of the biggest difficulties those of us coming out of fundamentalism have is learning how to stop being and acting fundamentalist. Sometimes all we achieve is modifying our fundamentalism just enough to convince us that we have escaped, when all we’ve really done is just budded off another branch on the tree. Maybe that is what that site’s author has wound up doing. ”

        Spot on. It’s actually what the author of the site is REBUKING. She is calling out BJU grads for behaving the same way they rebuke BJU for being. The Truth Seeking Graduate leaders had faked an identity claiming it to be a lawyer of GRACE in order to push their own agenda. This site’s author (who does not like GRACE or BJU) challenged them on this lie. Finally Boz of GRACE made a public statement to set the record straight. TSG leaders were lying. And they accuse BJU of all kinds of tactics to win converts…

        Basically the site is non-fundies challenging another group of non-fundies to stop becoming what they despise in BJU.
        This though was a bit more serious in nature. After the TSG has worked so hard to push GRACE and hold BJU accountable in these areas…to find out they were going to such extremes to lie and create victims (and an attorney).

        Not sure if that helped!

        1. Thanks. You delivered in a couple short paragraphs what the author of that website failed to communicate in how ever much space they used.

          Seems to me that all parties involved there are acting more fundamentalist than those who are coming out of it. Of course, if they are only against BJU, they may well still be fundies arguing points of fundyism. It is easy to spot the flaws in others that you do not recognize in yourself, even if you possess them in as dramatic and apparent a measure.

          My regards!

        2. Yes, thank you for summarizing that. I couldn’t quite understand the site, so to read it here gives me clarity. Bless you for your depth of understanding and generosity to share it!

  10. See, it’s things like this that when I was in my last days at Fundyland, after the rose-colored glasses came off, that I would see things like this and ask myself, “Am I the ONLY ONE who feels that this has crossed the line?”. It really felt like being in, “The Emperor’s New Clothes”. In fact, research of anyone that felt like me is what brought me here. I not only found people who thought the same, but people who, outside of my own husband, were the only people who truly understood the way a person thinks after growing up in that culture.

    Ironically, of those of us who grew up in my school and church and later left Fundamentalism, we have an instant kinship, because we understand each other in such a deep way.

    1. But it took courage to step out and start talking. That’s when the kinships started, and now more and more are coming out. So, I’ve long past questioning if I’m right in my thinking.

      It goes to show to always follow you’re gut.

    2. Ironically, of those of us who grew up in my school and church and later left Fundamentalism, we have an instant kinship, because we understand each other in such a deep way.

      Because you are both Veterans.
      You’ve Seen the Elephant.
      Just like those who went through Rapture Fever and Christians For Nuclear War back in the heyday of Hal Lindsay.

    1. Heh. Well, I have to say on that topic that if neither heaven nor hell exists, I won’t be disappointed. If they do exist, there is a good possibility that Hyles opened his eyes to a totally unexpected location.

    2. He has gone into hiding with Elvis Presley (who he converted in an Elevator) – they are building the infrastructure required for the people of God to resist the coming invasion by satanic extra-terrestrial nephilim warriors

  11. they hate us cause they ain’t us. That is North Korea, right there, baby!
    I hope it’s a joke picture. That is just plain creepy! Who puts up a shrine like that? Ugh!!!

  12. This is probably not the appropriate place to post this but I thought you guys might enjoy it. A friend in a group I am part of on Facebook posted this about her belief in God after coming out of Fundamentalism. “I no longer believe that there are vast numbers of people God hates and that he gets Victorian maiden vapors over how we dress.” Such a way with words.

  13. I was a student at HAC when this video (original one posted from 2001) was made. The mural was painted for the Hyle’s 40th anniversary at the church and says something like Happy 40th or Thank You for 40 years or something. It’s not uncommon to see billboards honoring long service at large organizations. The mural turned into an impromptu “shrine” when Hyles died much like the scene of a car accident or the home of a missing person does.

    The students seen are from the schools the church operated. Hyles certainly did interact with students on a regular basis even though it was public. I remember feeling a strong sense of grief when he died but he didn’t know me. People who didn’t know JFK grieved when he died, too. We had been praying fervently for Hyles’ recovery, as had the students at all of the schools. We were all disappointed, many heartbroken. Bringing students to a place to remember the leader of their school by singing some of his favorite songs, placing flowers, notes, etc. is not out of line in when helping them work through their grief.

    There’s plenty of anecdotal evidence of pastor worship at FBCH, but this video in context really isn’t part of it.

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