108 thoughts on “The Praise of Men”

  1. I went to that church one time when I was at Holden Beach. I don’t think anyone talked to me. Or maybe one usher. The only thing I remember about the service is that the special music was about all the people still around after the Rapture.

  2. I’m confused/concerned about those “full-time soulwinners.” I can’t imagine the IFB is paying them (of maybe they are, with Brother Anderzon’s generous donations). Both possibilities are frightening. Either these folks have quit their jobs to knock on doors all day, or they make their living off of it. I suppose we know that IFB churches aren’t above the latter, what with WCBC’s summer “JewCrew”.

    1. IFB churches don’t pay people to go soul-winning; it’s a requirement in many (most?) of them; it’s considered one’s Christian duty to go out knocking on strangers’ doors.

      But Russell Anderson has been paying people (usually college students between semesters) to go soul-winning.

      1. Actually, sometimes they do pay them. Typically college students on summer break, as in the case with WCBC’s NYC group that targets the Jewish neighborhoods. And, as you can see in the video, they are not all that well prepared.

        http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2011/07/being-ready-always-to-give-an-answer-to-every-man/#comments

        ” Oh, and for an explanation as to what they’re doing in NYC, they are giving out DVD’s recorded by Tom Cantor, a Christian businessman. The DVD is his testimony of how he came to accept Jesus as the Messiah and his personal Savior, giving evidence from the Jewish OT. Mr. Cantor has a real heart for the Jewish people…and people in general. I just wish everyone working for him had the same manner.”

    1. That’s like a whole large city…… If this is true, then there should be like a utopia somewhere occupied by solid Christians who have been born again and are living as Christ-followers. I think it’s even a stretch for this to be a number of people who have filled out a card, prayed a prayer, or raised a hand with “all heads bowed and eyes closed,” which IS NOT salvation anyways. Salvation is verified by spiritual fruit, not a raised hand, spoken prayer, or signed card.

    1. “Sorry, Son, I cant afford to turn on the cooker. This week your father will have to pay back all the tithes he owes God. So you will have to eat them raw. But don’t eat to many. They have to go out to all those unsaved boys and girls, who are much needier than you are….”

  3. Numbers like these always make me want to cry. I’ve been involved with church plants over the last 30 years, both overseas and here (currently as the lay director for our Spanish CE ministry in my local congregation). It usually takes 5-10 years to plant a healthy, reproducing church here in the States. How many churches has Bro. Wynne developed out of all these “converts?” Pinocchio and his nose come to mind about now….

      1. Do you have proof that they ARE true?

        You don’t honestly look at those numbers and say Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Where are these people? Are they actually serving the risen Christ, or did they just show up for special days and baptism because they were bribed? Is the method of salvation a simple 1,2,3, A,B,C, repeat after me bamboozle? Are current church members actually forming relationships with them because they are people with needs, or because the church has needs?

        How many of these people have truly changed lives now? Where will they be in five, ten, 20 years? Will they be broken under legalism and not darken the door of any church again? Or will they reflect the love, joy, peace, etc., that fundies say exist in Christ? For that matter, how many of the current church members and their “soulwinners” will still be “sticking by the stuff” in that time frame, exhibiting love, joy, peace, etc.? Or will they be broken by the burdens of legalistic religion?

        Anybody can write numbers on a page for a man who writes a check. That’s not hard.

        1. A: Attendance
          B: Buildings
          C: Cash

          1: One Mog
          2: Two Deacons to do his bidding
          3: Three Ushers to take up the offerings

      2. Things that can’t possibly be real don’t really need to be disproven.

        I know with reasonably certainty that there is not pod of blue whales on your lawn, even though I haven’t seen your home.

      3. Yes. There is proof.

        Please engage your brain for a moment. Take all those souls saved through the year. 783,433 through “full-time soul winners on the street.” 50 weeks per year (vacation, etc) x 5 days per week x 8 hours per day. That is 4000 hours. That is 196 per hour. Every hour, 8 hours per day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks per year.

        How long does it take to save a soul? 15 minutes? An hour? A couple of hours really connecting, plus a meal and coffee? At 15 minutes you would still need 49 people full time tirelessly cranking ’em in and spitting ’em out.

        Can you really give the Gospel in less than 15 minutes? I don’t think so. I never could. Have you? Really? What is sin? What is Salvation? Who is Jesus? Pat answers NEVER work. NEVER.

        So you need 49 street workers, full time. Minimum. More realistically, it takes much longer to interact with people to help them see that Jesus Christ, the Version 1.0 or 2.0 or 2.03B that you preach, is THE Version and THE Answer to their life’s deepest needs. Furthermore they need to know that Faith is not praying a prayer, saying a pledge, reciting such and such or saying that you “believe.”

        If an hour, you need 196 or 200 full-time workers. Do they have that many on staff? How many full-time soul-winners do they actually have?

        http://www.ibfms.mx

        No head count, there. Only about 7 or 8 major people on staff. Evidently the Full-Time soul winners aren’t important enough to be mentioned on the web site.

        Now sure, their Plan of Salvation has been whittled down to 4 steps and 17 (count ’em!) verses. But really. Is soul-winning a rattle-off-the-verses technique?

        Of course, Fundamentalism has added so MANY Many many qualifications and extras to what is needed to properly believe or trust or whatever that it really would take a 16-week, 8-hour course to present it all. Especially pesky is that dratted problem with Science. Science is so fact-based, and the conclusions it comes to based on facts are anathema. Especially evolution. Goodness! I have people telling me, who trusted Christ as my Savior 41 years ago, that I was never saved to begin with because I began to understand and believe that evolutionary processes were real and correct some, uh, 16 years ago or so.

        So you tell me. Please do. I will be waiting for your answer. Is 783,433 saved by way of the Full-time soul winners street ministry realistic, or not? Is it reasonable to believe this report, or should we see it in the light of reality — and eternity — as a lie?

        1. And if there WERE almost 800,000 people Saved(TM) in a single geograhpic area, wouldn’t this have some visible impact on the surrounding community?

        1. For the last word about this kind of soul-winning numbers game, read Nikolai Gogol’s “Dead Souls” (1842).
          Chichikov (the novel’s antihero) and Kevin Wynne are interchangeable.

      1. News media is making it a controversy. Nick, Blake and Jacob know what the deal is. I think Blake will be the QB starting SEC play in a couple of weeks. We have plenty of weapons, Blake just needs to get the ball to the right player at the right time. No worries here or in “Title Town”…on the road to #16! Roll Tide!!

  4. I can’t fathom the mindset that makes the glorifying of another man like that acceptable. You don’t see that kind of butt kissing anywhere else other than IFB crowds.

    Besides the nausea-inducing content, the grammar, random capitalization, and formatting made my brain hurt…

  5. Some background I think is needed:

    A. Kevin Wynne is a missionary in Mexico City. See http://www.globalbaptist.net/kevin-wynne.html

    B. The “full time soulwinners” are employees by Anderson to do just that. They are usually Bible college students at a missionary’s bible college. His thinking is that he can pay them “full time” (few bucks a day) on foreign fields but won’t do it here in states. Anderson gets reports like this and keeps a running tab on his accomplishments.

    1. Ask me what I think about that “Save the Catholics” stuff. No, don’t ask me; you don’t want to know.

      But…but…why do these people always go sheep-stealing in Latin America? How come they seldom or never go to someplace truly “unchurched,” like, say, Uzbekistan? Too dangerous, maybe? So much easier to “save” people who have known about Jesus for the past 500-plus years. Why bother starting from scratch with hostile heathens, right?

      Grrrr. Don’t get me started.

        1. Yup, the priest who got kicked out for an affair with a young girl. I remember now. Never read that in a Chick tract.

        1. FWIW, I did get rebaptized, as apparently my first one in infancy, in the Presbyterian Church, didn’t count, you have to be dunked, not just sprinkled. And yet, for all the fuss Baptists make over it, I’m glad I did it anyway. Never hurts to give it an extra boost. 🙂

    2. I couldn’t be much more disgusted with these people. They somehow found time and resources to send countless “full time soul winners” and build and maintain what appears to be a large and extravagant auditorium/church to accommodate 9,000 attendees, but their budget is so tight they’ve only found needs and resources to give out 3,000 or so food baskets. Your priorities always show up on your balance sheet and braggadocio.

      1. The thought of a “church organization” is bad enough, since the church is not an organization, but an organism.

        But the thought of a “church” hiring “full-time soul winners” is nauseating.

        Imagine. That is your “job.” Your job description gives expectations of how many “souls” you are expected to “save” (“lead to the Lord,” “reap”) every week, month, etc.

        They aren’t called, “Gospel Presenters,” or “neighborhood workers,” or extension ministry people. No. The job title cuts all the work of the Holy Spirit out of the mix. Performance reviews, goals, job descriptions. The results are measured in numbers, and numbers beg to be inflated. The focus on individual lives isn’t there. Nothing about growth. Get those soul babies born! Then leave ’em out in the cold without individual care. Nothing is more important than the New Birth. Growth and Food and Life are all nonessentials.

        The Gospel Ministry is meant to count not only for eternity, but for the here and now. Paul said that if in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But the reverse may be even more true. If Salvation works only in eternity, but has no power in the here and now, then we have no assurance that it exists at all. If God does not or cannot change circumstances and hearts in our lives now, how can we trust anything for the future? It is a fool’s errand.

  6. How pathetic to cut the number of food baskets. We only give them food baskets to get them into church to save their souls. Guess they have never heard of doing a food drive to make the baskets. The church I used to work at did that every year. The church only purchased hams, eggs, and fresh veggies.

  7. Folks, when you’re just making up numbers, at least have your made-up numbers be consistent with each other.

    783,483 + 142,840 + 45,494 + (14,715?) =/= 926,273

    As for the claim that this guy and his assistants have personally “saved” (no, “Saved”) nearly a million people in one year, I’ll let the absurdity of that speak for itself.

    1. It is tragic.

      If they are really seeing 1,000,000 (rounded) lives transformed, but only 1500 even join the church, that’s about 0.15%. When God recorded numbers in Acts 2, 3000 were saved, 3000 were baptized, and 3000 “continued in the apostles’ doctrine”.

      It’s sad/tragic that they rush to tell people that they are “saved” when there is no evidence of the “new creature” that the Holy Spirit makes within true believers.

      As a older deacon once sadly proclaimed: “They are messing with someone’s eternity!”

      1. But showing only 1500 salvations a year (assuming that much is even true) would hardly be enough to continue contributions from someone like Anderson….who demands big numbers.

        IMHO pastors/missionaries have to sell out their integrity to keep such deep pockets happy and writing those big checks.

  8. Hold up, Bro Kev signed this letter “Your friend and servant”. Or grammatically, your friend and your servant. What relationship would cause someone to sign a letter “Your Servant”. Bad math is ignorance but fealty to man is creepy.

    1. According to Jesus, I think we are to serve one another, thus we are to be servants.

      Also, given that Anderson has given beaucoup bucks to this organization, you could make the case that this MOG is Anderson’s servant.

      There’s more that could be said on the subject of servant relationships but that’s why search engines were invented.

    2. “Your humble servant” is an old, polite closing for a letter.
      “Your servant” is also a proper way for a minister to describe his/her relationship to a congregation.
      But signing a letter to your boss or financial backer with “your servant” implies a rather slavish relationship.

  9. This letter has to be joke, I said to myself, It cannot be real!

    Then I pulled up the website and read Rick Martin’s letter as well. I don’t have the appropriate words to explain or define these people.

    Michael S. Alford wrote earlier: September 10, 2014 at 2:23 pm “I met Kevin Wynne years ago, and know people who have maintianed contact with his minstry since then. Do you have some sort of proof that these are manipulated or inflated numbers?”

    So, Mr. Alford, it is our responsibility to “prove” these outlandish numbers are “manipulated or inflated?” There are many reasons to doubt the numbers without having to prove they are true.

    B.R.O.

    1. Rick Martin claimed that Anderson saw 5,577,646 souls saved through his Bible students and outreach ministries. If Anderson were 100 years old and he or his army of Bible students personally lead souls to Jesus every single day of his life from the day of his blessed birth he would have saved 153 (rounded up from 152.8) souls a day.

      If that doesn’t raise suspicion, then wrapping your mind around his 2013 firgure of 569,203 souls saved should: Thats 1,559 souls each and every day for the year 2013.

      No shame.

      1. The entire city where Rick Martin has his church only has a population of around 420,000.

        The entire country has a population is about 100M; in 2010, only 2.7M called themselves “Evangelical Christians”; another 1.3M called themselves “Protestant” – even assuming that all of these are Independent Baptists, that’s only 4M, no the 5.5M claimed by Rick Martin.

        Apparently, a lot of these people “saved” don’t know how to answer surveys. 🙂

        1. So that means his church SAVED everyone in town twice over? Like those Third World elections where Glorious Maximum Leader is re-elected by twice as many votes as there are people in the entire country?

          If those numbers were true, wouldn’t we have seen visible changes and effects in that town?

      2. I don’t remember a lot of specific events at HAC but I remember being in chapel when Martin was preaching one day. There was one line he said and at the time it was fairly motivating and I wrote it down. It actually made sense then and in a way it still does. I’m no longer motivated though. It’s more of a commentary on my philosophy these days than anything else.

    2. I would doubt those numbers just on the weakness of Mr Wynne’s writing skills. The random Capitalization of words For no good Reason makes me doubt his abilities In anything Academically related, including Counting and Numbers.

      He might be a very good man who loves his deity but the focus on numbers and money is quite off-putting.

      For what it’s worth, I don’t expect the guy to be the next Shakespeare, but I would hope that a man who runs an educational institution would be able to exhibit basic writing skills.

  10. I can remember chapel at Pillsbury when “performance cards” were collected and the results were posted on a statistics board from when students returned from being out working over the weekends. It was all about the numbers, numbers, numbers. As the old saying goes: “The last liar doesn’t have a chance”.
    I know I was disingenuous at times as painful as that is for me to admit to that. I sooooo badly needed a place to fit in.

    1. In OT Israel the Tithe of 10% took care if the costs of a Theocracy that included Temple expenses, judicial, a standing army, maintenance of the City of Jerusalem, etc., etc.
      To coerce the church in this age of Grace to model tithing after OT Israel is not biblical. To make it worse with guilt trips on basing the 10% in gross rather than net is crazy and wrong. In my Fundy past I have watched some good people give but not be able to adequately care for their family.
      The biblical guidance for today is being a cheerful giver, give as God has blessed. Give 10% if you can. If you can, give 90% and live on 10%. I know for sure if i were well-heeled and could give like that I would do my homework and due diligence to make sure I wasn’t being scammed or misled. To be coerced or deceived to give as if it’s a guaranteed “return in in investment” is not right.

      1. My wife and I believe that we do not give to the Church, but to the Lord. So, if I take part of the “tithe” money and spend it at McDonalds to feed a homeless man (and we have), the Lord should not be displeased with that as an offering given in His name.

        The Pastor probably would be displeased.

        1. YES.

          I was taught that the best giving is the kind that takes so much of your substance that you start squirming about whether you’ll be able to afford your little luxuries (not necessities, mind you)–but the money goes to people worse off than you as directly as possible and with minimum notice. And the pastor/priest/whatever isn’t the person who should be involved in collecting or distributing the money. That’s what deacons are for!

        2. Ooh! Happy giving story of the week! I got this from Reader’s Digest.

          So a man stops by a panhandler and talks to him instead of just dumping money and walking off, or scurrying past. He says, “I can give you $100 right now, or I can teach you how to code over the next few months.” Presumably he had seen the panhandler’s cell phone, i.e., his lifeline to pretty much anything these days. The panhandler took the second option and launched an app that helps commuters set up car pools.

          Moral: Before you give, ask.

  11. To: Dr. Russell Anderson
    From: Kevin Wynne
    Re: Yur so awesome

    Deer Dr. Anderson yur so awesome and I must say a very attractive man. I cud call you ‘man pretty’ but not in sum gay way. We sur do luv the bilding you paid fer. It’s plumb bustin at the seems for Jeezus. We have hed so manny peeple saved hear that we dun lost count. All because of you. We luv and adore you and honoure you. If I was a lady I’d want to hav yur baby.

    Ef the good Lord shud leed you we could mangify yur name some more even with a bigger bilding.

    Yurs in bromance,
    Kevin

  12. When we remember that the contemporary IFB church is a religious corporation, established for its own perpetuation as any commercial corporation would be, then the numbers game makes sense, that is worker productivity, piece work, hourly output etc. But when viewed biblically, the numbers game disintegrates. King David got in a heap of trouble for numbering Israel. Scriptue notes that it was Satan who prompted the king to keep a membership roll as it were. And in second Corinthians Paul made it clear he was not in the number of those who compared themselves among themselves. He said it was not wise to do so. Corporately, numbers make sense. Bibically, they are a satanic wash out.

  13. With no irreverence towards the Almighty, but with a certain amount of ridicule of Kevin Wynne’s claims, maybe we can shorten the letter and add a tune:

    The “Doc’s”ology

    Almost one Million Souls were Won!
    So Thank you Doctor Anderson!

    Peter, James, and let’s not forget Paul–
    I think you may Excel them All!

    Your friend!

    P.S. And Servant!

    1. Wow. The way he says “batch of pastors” just makes me think of taking a cookie sheet out of the oven with a batch of chocolate chip cookies on it. All pretty much the same, except maybe differing in how many chocolate chips they have.

  14. “Your giving”
    “Your full-time soul-winners”
    “Your Bible class”
    “Your programs”

    Praise, Doc Andy, all who know him.
    Who can tell how much we owe him?
    Gladly let us render to him
    All our words of praise.

    Russell is the name that charms us,
    He for conflict fits and arms us;
    Nothing moves and nothing harms us
    While we trust in Him.

    (I didn’t even have to change the second verse except for replacing Jesus with Russell, not that Kevin would ever call him Russell.)

  15. my wife has a cousin involved in this cultic church. when she was going to the college they paid her to go soul winning. they actually gave her quota of how many souls need to be saved every week. she was in tears because she had not met her quota and would not get paid…and she was afraid she would not have enough food for the week. How sick is that? if your next meal depended on how many souls got saved, you will do anything to make them the pray the prayer

      1. Sadly, it sounds like the cousin of this gentleman’s wife accepted a commission based sales job. It also seems as though her employers somehow overlooked 1 Corinthians 3:5-8, among other verses, in the course of their bible reading.

        What’s even worse than the fact that the quotas encourage lying, however, is the evangelistic techniques used to hit the numbers.Multitudes are being taught that praying a special prayer out of a desire to avoid punishment is exactly the same thing as receiving Jesus Christ.Only God knows how many human beings will be vastly more difficult to reach with the gospel in the future because they were given a false assurance of heaven due to the fact that they prayed a “magic prayer” after listening to a brief presentation.

        1. It’s called “Say-the-Magic-Words Salvation” and it’s universal among “Non-Denominationals” and Fundagelicals.

          And like any Magick Spell, you have to say The Words just right, and really really truly Mean It or the spell doesn’t work.

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