129 thoughts on “A Relationship With Your Pastor”

  1. okay.. now I got that out of the way. The Pastor holds the place of Jesus Christ? He is a representative? For people who hate on Catholics so much, that’s precisely what the Roman church says the Pope is…

    Last time I checked, we were all ambassadors (representatives) for Christ.

  2. I get what he’s saying. But my old pastor was a very aloof man. So it was hard to have a relationship with him.

    He was nice on the superficial level and was there at church to just do his job. I admit he was a hard worker though, his home pretty much was that building.

    nicodemusatnite.com

    1. I would agree. I’ve known a number of IFB pastors and pastoral staff members over the years but only at a superficial level. They built walls around themselves so you really couldn’t get to know them. Part of it I think was that they were afraid to show they’re human. And part of it also was that some already had a close circle of friends in the church and that was sort of their comfort zone.

    2. When a ministry is as large as the one he has there, it is impossible to have a “relationship” with the pastor. It is physically impossible and more than that emotionally impossible for a single man to seriously engage with all of the members of a congregation that large. If you listen, when a pastor of a ministry that large starts preaching you almost wonder WHO he is speaking to. Even his preaching starts to lose its personal feel.

      1. In my opinion a church with a single minister should cap its membership at 100-150 adults, or confirmands if the church recognizes the process of confirmation, and work on opening a daughter church. Churches with multiple ministers should still cap their membership at 2,000-2,500 adults or confirmands. The first number is the maximum number of people one person can typically claim as personal acquaintances and the second is about the biggest a community can be and still feel like a village (with care and attention).

        As for the original entry–is the layperson ever allowed to call the pastor on an error? No? Then it’s not a relationship I want.

        1. I meant to say: a church with a single minister should cap it’s membership at one. (according to Eph 4) [good morning george… morning don]

  3. I’m surprised he would answer a letter from Aiesha. Maybe she’s a bus kid who would like to get to know her Pastor and church family, but is separated from them every time she’s at church.

    1. I was thinking the same thing. Most of the old school leaders of Christian fundamentalism had little use for minorities. Most of the old school leaders were segregationist or outright racist.
      Many fundie leaders are aware of America’s changing demographics. They are also aware that the white population is becoming more secular. The growing minority population would seem a good place to find new recruits. But often the minorities bring their culture (especially their music) to the church, a culture often white fundies dislike. Because for many fundies, in order to be a good Christian one had to adopt white American culture.
      White fundie leaders forget the early church had the same conflict between those who believe gentile converts had to adopt Jewish culture and customs, and those who believe the gentiles could be good Christians and keep their gentile culture.

    2. You assume Aiesha actually wrote that letter. I could almost guarantee Aiesha is the name for Jack’s non-dominant hand with which he typed that letter so he could answer a question on a topic he wished to address. This guy is so incredibly smarmy, he gives smarmy people the creeps.

      1. I cannot even look at the still shot, of the video, without feeling a wave of nausea. He was always grotesque, but years of depredation have made him just … Well, nauseating. πŸ‘Ώ

  4. Just remember, sometimes the shepherd has to “slap people around” and “make fun of others from the pulpit”. Tough love folks. Suck it up. JACK does not “have a problem sleeping at night, so don’t worry about him”. πŸ™„

    Why do I actually remember some of the things this man says?

  5. Wt…? Your attitude toward your pastor/parents represents your attitude towards God? My my, that’s an awfully tall pedestal that man has crawled up on. It’s gonna really hurt when he slips and falls.

    Jesus points out that God is way better than parents (“if you being evil know how to give good gifts, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to them that ask…”) and I believe my husband’s missionary parents were soundly thumped at seminary that a man should hate his parents for the kingdom’s sake, i.e. abandon them for the foreign field whether they supported the idea or not. Plus the word pastor is only mentioned once in the NT to my knowledge, and nowhere in that passage is pastor given that kind of power.

    But that’s how proof-texting is: use it where you need it for the sermon at hand, or just make stuff up out of thin air (like if you don’t have a good relationship with your pastor you will “struggle in so many areas”, whatever that means)and say it with the same gravity with which you quote scripture. Who will notice the difference? The MOG has spoken!

  6. In theory I like the idea of having a good relationship with your pastor. I’m highly suspicious of it as a measuring stick of spiritual growth (especially since you can’t find that or even a general concept of that in scripture). Also, it seems rather ballsy for a pastor of church with too many attenders to have a personal relationship with more than like 2% of the attendees/spouse abusers. I’d like to know the other 4 of his “top 5 signs of spiritual growth”. If you are one of the thousands of people who go to FBCH and have no relationship whatsoever with Schaap to to unavailability, shouldn’t this be a reason to leave to a smaller church (even if you don’t have an issue with insane fundyland?

  7. Way to ruin a perfectly dreary Friday morning, Darrell. When the page loaded, my first thought was, “Oh, Lord. THIS Jackwagon?”

    I’m going back to yesterday, thank you very much.

    1. “Jackwagon” made my day. I was a student at HAC when he was, later on faculty when he was, and he has always been a jack wagon. I never ever play the videos of him. If I need to vomit, there are easier ways to induce it.

    2. “JACKWAGON!” LOVE IT!!! Describes him perfectly! I, too, was at college with him and he has ALWAYS been a Jackwagon as far as I can remember. Thank you. I was crying, but now I am laughing.

  8. Incredible! I’ve often heard the preaching that if your relationship with God isn’t right, your other relationships won’t be right but he takes it a step further to say your relationship with HIM has to be right (meaning you’re in subjection to him, obeying his every word no doubt) or your other relationships will be wrong! Who does he think he is? And like others have said with a church that size there’s no way he can have a personal relationship with all of his church members. My first fundy church had approximately 500 members (far fewer than the thousands who attend FBC) and I barely knew the pastor, I only spoke personally with him a handful of times during the 15 years he was the pastor. Schaap must really think he’s superman.

    How dare he suggest that if you’re not in a proper (obedient, fawning, worshipful hang on his every word, never disagree with him) relationship with him, you’re not in a proper relationship with God! Then he compares himself with parents, you’re to obey your parents, and you’re to obey your pastor without question. I assume this girl Alisha (or whatever it was) is a child or young teen. Hopefully he wasn’t speaking to an adult, though knowing the utter sexism of this man it wouldn’t surprise me a bit to learn he was speaking to an adult woman. They regard adult women as children. 😈

  9. Maybe the question that should be asked is, “How important is the pastor’s attitude towards his brothers and sisters in Christ,in regards to a church body growing spiritually and the saints being equipped for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

    If he is the proxy god this^ cannot take place.

  10. only one concept comes to mind. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER. CULT LEADER.

  11. Pastor as the head of family and as shepherd of sheep —well, now that gives me very bad images when I consider how often pastors have sex with members of their congregation.

  12. He represents Jesus Christ. I cannot find in the Bible where it says that Jesus put pastors in charge of the church and that they are to be representations of Him. Woops….I am not reading the KJV Bible – it must be in there…right?

  13. What have we learned today?

    1) Beware if Darrell gives us anymore fundy free days. There is heck to pay after. πŸ˜†

    2) Pastor = God. Or in his mind I am sure the equation is Pastor > god. (Capitalization is deliberate)

  14. It seems that a lot of IFB pastors are friendly enough, but most of them are not friends with anyone in the church. Perhaps it is hard to “skin” the flock when you are friends.

    By the way, the little church where I grew up was not like this. I can’t recall the pastor getting angry in the pulpit or elsewhere, and he seemed to me to be friends with everyone in the church. It was only when I got involved in the IFB movement, that I encountered “angry Baptists”.

    1. They are not all bad; there is an IFB pastor in Arkansas who counsels people that they should not join a church where the pastor preaches in anger.

      I wish I’d had this advice 25 years ago.

  15. I don’t know; Mr Schaap may be getting a unfairly deserved pounding for this video. People here are reading a lot into his response.

    He did not define the nature of the relationship; he didn’t say that people need to worship their pastors, or give to them blind loyalty.

    According to I Pet 5:1-5, one of the jobs of a pastor (elder) is to feed the flock of God. If I think my pastor is not trying to help me, I won’t listen, and won’t receive the feeding he is offering — and why I am at his church if I don’t at least have enough of a relationship with him to trust him to feed me the Scriptures?

    I do think that his answer was too close to Roman Catholic teaching; the pastor is not God’s representative to us; we have free access to God ourselves… too many IFB churches look to Moses and the children of Israel as their model for church government (maybe it’s a HAC thing). I’ve heard too many messages about Korah (“don’t you dare point out in public where the pastor is wrong”) and Hur/Aaron (“your function, if you’re lucky, is to do whatever the pastor tells you to support him”)

    The priesthood has been done away with, and He has made us priests unto God.

    I think he’s right that one should have a good relationship with one’s pastor.

    I think it is a broad generalization to say that people who don’t have a good relationship with their pastor have trouble in their lives. Even people with a good relationship to the pastor have trouble in their lives (amen?).

    I do NOT think that the pastor is the representative of Christ to the people.

    Finally, when he referred to the church as the family of God, I was fully expecting him to say that the pastor is the father of the family.

    1. .38 “The pastor as the man in charge of that particular flock”

      .42 seconds in “…your pastor is a representative of Jesus Christ”.

      I don’t think we are being unfairly critical or reading too much into his comments.

      Pastors are not “in charge” of the church – they are mandated to serve the church. No where in this commentary do we hear anything about service. It is how are you “the church memmber” in your relationship with the “man in charge – God’s representative”. This is precisely what is wrong with MOG rule.

    2. GR, have you seen the other videos and textual material by and about Jack Schaap posted here on Stuff Fundies Like? If not, watch them and listen to what he says, and you’ll see that all we’re “reading into” this video is other stuff he himself has said.

      Start by clicking on the name “jack schaap” over to the right of these comments.

    3. GR, I’m sensitive to your request that this be done carefully and objectively. Thankfully when it comes to Schaap there is no need to embellish or distort since the reality is quite bad enough. As was noted, check out his other videos for some context.

      1. I’m no fan of Jack Schaap. I’ve seen some of his incredible arrogant correspondence with other pastors.

        If you wish to help people stuck in fundyland, however, reading stuff into a video just gives credence to the concept that this site is just filled with bitter, vindictive rebels. I’m writing about the impression that the responses give people who come by here, and maybe see this for the first time.

        Let’s judge him for what he said on THIS video; if your comments are referencing other things he has said, you don’t need to give “chapter and verse”, but you can add something like “xxxxx (according to other videos posted).

        1. The thing is, though, this site is mostly satire. It’s to make fun of … stuff fundies like. Sure, it provides respite for the beaten down, but it does so with humor, mostly.

          I don’t believe SFL is a ministry in and of itself. It’s a website, meant to just poke fun and point out the things that Fundyland prides itself in.

          True, it has helped in my healing, as I’ve seen it done in other people, but I don’t think it’s a site to truly be taken THAT seriously.

          True recovery from fundyland comes first from actually studying what the Bible truly has to say. That alone is the serious, most important part. The more you truly study the Bible without the fundy glasses on, the more you see that what they teach just simply isn’t right.

          SFL is a place, I think, to come and laugh and point out the absurd (i.e. Jack Schaap) and truly see how ridiculous Fundyland, in all its glory, can truly be.

        2. Call me a bitter rebel, if you want. I’m fine with that.
          But I don’t think I’m vindictive. I don’t want bad things to happen to Jack Schaap, for example. I just want him to stop hurting other people, which he is now doing on a daily basis. I want him to stop putting himself in the place of God, which offends me, and probably offends God. I want people to stop being deceived by him, and all his ilk, and following him or other false prophets blindly.

  16. The most dangerous thing about a guy like that is the fact that, in these videos (not in the pulpit), he comes across as a really nice guy. His speaking voice is clear, smooth, and strong… And, someone who’s never been into and burned by the IFB movement watches that and thinks this guy has it together and truly knows the answers to life and happiness. Then, they start listening and then they follow every single word the man says and does every thing he commands them do. And, thus begins the whole mind games.

    I feel sorry for the teens and college kids. They’re influential and want to believe that this guy has their best interests an heart.

      1. Natalie. I feel sorry for them too. I was one of them. I know the torture and the mind-screwing they get when they are under the influence of that kind of cult mentality. It is so hard to explain how they cover every base as far as “What *they* will say” so that nobody can say ANYTHING that will convince them to come out of it. Their eyes have to be opened from being in it. I wish there was some way to reach out to them. I even thought about going back somehow *under cover* but couldn’t bear the idea of that.

        1. “I was one of them.”

          Me, too. πŸ˜‰

          But, through the years to follow, thankfully, God gave me the wisdom and strength to realize that I wasn’t a bad person for asking why and then finally realizing that you couldn’t put all the characteristics of what it is to be a Christian in one single, little box.

  17. OK, Here’s the part that really struck me as odd. When you have a poor relationship with your pastor, your spiritual growth is stunted.

    But, in my experience, it wasn’t the poor relationship with my pastor. It was all the effort I was putting into trying to please my pastor and have a good relationship with him.

    When I quit stressing over how my theological leanings (from real Bible study) would be a problem between my pastor and I, it did indeed cause problems in the relationship. But it also freed me to leave that church and experience spiritual growth on a level that I never knew before.

  18. And, no, my relationship with my pastor is not like my relationship with God.

    God isn’t going to judge you when you talk to Him about evil thoughts or sins you committed. He’s going to listen and forgive.

    God doesn’t tell you exactly what to look like. He’s going to let you discern that for yourself.

    God isn’t going to tell you exactly what college to go to or whether or not to take a job and tell you that if you choose the wrong one, your life will be ruined. He’s going to open doors and give you the choice of them, each door having its own outcome.

    God isn’t going to tell you exactly who to marry. He’s going to provide to you all types of people, and the wisdom and ability to discern within yourself whom to choose, if any.

    God doesn’t work like IFB pastors. He gives us a free will, something they just simply can’t do.

  19. There it is… ATTITUDE. The word they used to bludgeon us for all those years. “If you have a problem with me or anything I do, your ATTITUDE is wrong, because it COULDN’t BE ME! I REPRESENT JESUS! If you have a problem with ME you have a problem with JESUS!” Wow… that all came out of nowhere. Gonna go lie down for a minute.

  20. “Your attitude toward your pastor shows your attitude toward the Lord Jesus.”

    Actually, you have it backwards.
    The attitude you have toward woman and children and other people you consider inferior (laymen who refuse to wear prestigious clothing and sit in the chief seats in the church) “who are not capable of teaching you anything about God”, your disdain for them shows your attitude toward the Lord Jesus.

  21. I think even the King James Bible says that there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and man, the man CHRIST JESUS. Of course what that scripture is REALLY trying to say is, that in the original languages the word one really means TWO and that Jesus NEEDS Jackwagon Schaap to be the “Jesus with skin on him” for all us poor pitiful people who can’t see Jesus otherwise. We should all now bow down and be grateful and give gifts to our benevolent king. If we work really hard and serve until we are so sick we can’t move then maybe (JUST MAYBE) he will feel so inclined to look in our direction and perhaps buy us a pizza or ice cream and we will be eternally grateful for such a grand gesture towards us “sheep”

  22. I have been in this kind of church. The big church with the important pastor who only has time for a select handfull of members. This creates horrible infighting as the peons jockey for position and to gain favor with the Mog. He then dishes them out a little favor and in return they wear themselves out building his kingdom in hopes that he will toss them some crumbs at a future date. I thank God that I am out of that mess.

    I think I need to go punch a wall.

  23. I guess we won’t bother to mention that pastors who do a poor job cultivating honest relationships with the members of the church hinder their spiritual growth.

    You church members have always and will forever be to blame.

  24. Pastors who call for this kind of loyalty from their staff and church members seem to be dealing with some kind of insecurity issue. They show the need for constant affirmation.

    I once served an internship on a staff of a very large church with over one hundred staff members. This pastor mentioned in a staff meeting once that if he did not receive a personal note (read: something flattering him and the ministry) at least every month from a staff member, he would begin to grow concerned.

    That kind of sounds like insecurity to me.

  25. This sounds like he is putting ALL the responsibility for a good relationship with the pastor on the OTHER person. Where is the responsibility on the pastor’s side? These pastors will one day stand before GOD and give account for each person who was in their “flock” and how they “shepherded” those people. I feel sorry for them on that day.

  26. Holey shmoley, this one hit me hard! When I was 23, (over 20 years ago!) my pastor managed to get me into bed with him. What this pastor was saying about being Jesus’ representative was shades of the kind of sh*t that guy would pull to make me think I ‘had’ to give into him to be following God. πŸ˜₯
    (Walks off to punch a wall.)

    1. These narcissist can be so manipulative. πŸ‘Ώ

      I can not imagine what you had to go through, especially if the congregation attacked you and considered him the victim (which is often what happens). πŸ˜₯

  27. So I need to have a good relationship with my pastor to have a good relationship with God? Whatever happened to the supposed beloved baptist doctrine of the priest of every believer?. Not to mention the biblical fact that Christ is the one mediator between God and man, so if I am in Christ I already have a good relationship with God.

    1. Haven’t you heard?
      The Priesthood of All Believers has been supplanted by The Godhood of Your Pastor, and Christ as the One Mediator is out of date, because who needs a mediator when you have God Himself in your pulpit?

  28. My former fundy pastor actually wrote a book entitled, “Your Pastor and You”. Seriously, what purpose does such a book serve other than elevating the pastor waaaaaaay up above the flock?

    Crazy, all of it.

  29. The only thing that came to mind when I read that was…”I wonder if Jack drives around Hammond/Gary in a kelly green metalflake ’85 Buick skylark with 31 inch goldachrome spinners with a ‘pimpin aint easy’ decal on the back winda”

  30. Oh man, this is good stuff. Completely backwards but good for a laugh if you can do such a thing. Coincidentally I just had a discussion with a UPC member about this same thing. Apparently I’m out of God’s will because I didn’t respect my Managawd a year ago when I moved, and he’s somehow part of the headship talked about in 1 Corinthians too. πŸ™„

  31. Note I got THIS MORNING from my youngest sister.
    “I forgive you and miss you, but I know until you apologize to my pastor and our sister we will never be a real family again. I know you’ll never get this, but it makes me feel better that I got it off my chest”.
    😈

    1. Until you do X, She will never accept you as part of her family. That’s messed up! People with normal boundaries don’t talk to other people this way.

      I’m sorry, too. Totally sucks.

      1. Yep. My family is my family, whether or not they apologize to me, my pastor, or anybody else.
        My other family members would say the same thing.

        I’m sorry it doesn’t seem to be that way in some families, and I hope MKX’s sister will get over that belief.

  32. OMG OMG OMG OMG..I am shaking. God help me. TRIGGER…So Jack, that is why you throw the F bomb around in meetings where people don’t bow to your commands?? That is why you are completely inappropriate in your dealings with women in counseling sessions? This is why you send people 7 page letters ripping them to shreds because they left the church and aren’t 100% loyal to YOU? This is why you vilify and destroy the names of people who question your leadership in ANY way and fire them on the spot if they decide to follow a different path other than YOURS? This is why you tell a teenager they go go F themselves, their family can go F themselves? No one sees that beautiful side of you do they oh wise shepherd who destroys people by exemplifying a god that is little and mean and abusive? Guess what – I stand and say, THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES ON.

    1. They put forth such a noble and wise facade. So calm, so serene, yet the devil is behind the mask the public is allowed to see. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it till I die: the IFB attracts men of lesser and questionable character to its ranks precisely because all one has to do is say, “I was Calledβ„’ to the ministry.” The bigger the ego and the greater the chrisma the more popular the ministry and the greater the potential for manipulation, abuse, criminal activity and coverup.

      IAHB, we love ya sis. Thank you for your contributions around here. ((hugs)) from me too.

    2. Beloved, knowing some of the things you’ve told about your story, I think you are courageous to be speaking out about it, and I appreciate you doing it. You don’t know how much I admire your character.

      Jesus fellowshipped with tax collectors, prostitutes, and pagans, and he forgave adultresses and thieves, but do you know what he couldn’t stand? Hypocrites. He denounced hypocrites more than anyone else.
      I don’t know why I thought of that just now …

    3. This thread hit my trigger too! I have spent all day in tears or near tears. IAHB, I can’t even say how much I understand and appreciate what you are saying. I am more or less without words, so I will just say AMEN to what you said here. Oh, and (((hugs))) to you.

  33. Sims- you are not alone kiddo-hugs backatcha. If you ever need to chat feel free to email me- us sisters need to stick together.

    Big Gary, Don, Emily, Helen, PS and Naomi-thank you for encouraging my heart- you all are family and I loves ya! (I really shouldn’t have posted at the moment I was triggering..not good..)

  34. my god i love it

    “Jesus is the head of the church”- Catholicism agrees
    “Jesus places pastors (read bishops and such) over particular flock, your pastor (pope) is a Representative of Jesus christ on earth”.. isnt that “Vicar of Christ”???

  35. This strikes me as one of those invented questions that just gives the pastor the opportunity to pontificate on his subject of choice. Who would ask that question? Who would ask it in that way?
    This reminds me of the nonsense “conversations” that pastors sometimes claim to have with “unbelievers” that set them up for a clever punch line for their illustration.

    1. So, RojAvon, you are suggesting that Schaap exaggerates, maybe even LIES, in order to make an egocentric point? As in the tradition of his FIL (who, apparently, willed the pastorate to his SIL, it being a little-known fact that these things descend from father to… er, SIL)? Is this what you are saying? Shocking. πŸ˜‰

Leave a Reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.