PBW Day 3: A Little Learning

Choosing a Fundy U is an incredibly important step in a preacher boy’s life because it marks the territory of his future ministry possibilities. A BJU pastoral grad isn’t likely to find much opportunity at a “Hyles church” and a missions major from PCC may be considered too liberal to be supported by those in Crown circles. Pick your college, pick your friends.

The other possibility is that the preacher boy may decide that if John the Baptist didn’t have no book learning that he don’t need none neither. Down this path he may find a menial position on ministry staff at his home church where he can sit and learn at the feet of great men like his pastor and the part-time volunteer youth director/bus mechanic/grounds keeper.

He will hone his preaching technique, copying the voice and gestures of those he idolizes as carefully as he copies their sermon outlines to use later. He will practice and revise his “true life” illustrations until he can be sure that there won’t be a dry eye in the house by the time that rebellious teenager, her parents, and her dog finally perish in that freak balloon accident. He will learn how pastors walk, how they think, how they smile so it looks almost real, and how they nod attentively while planning what they’re going to say next.

But whether in the classroom or the school of sub-minimum wage hard knocks, the most important lessons that a preacher boy learns are those about himself. For he is a Man of God. He is the Man of God. He is practically a demigod. He is a prophet, priest, and king and none can say to him “what doest thou?” He will rise up and call himself blessed.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a newly minted preacher boy.

180 thoughts on “PBW Day 3: A Little Learning”

  1. The freak balloon accident made me laugh!!!

    So many great statements are in this post – like the fakey smile pasted on the PB’s face while he pretends to listen to you.

    Bless YOU, Darrell.

  2. “…how they smile so it almost looks real, and not attentively while planning what they’re going tonsay next.”

    So brilliant…that visual is playing in my head like a movie. I can totally remember this from my childhood.

    1. *Nod* attentively and *to say*

      Perfect storm of early morning, large fingers and iPhone keyboard 🙂

  3. Lol well done! I don’t know if the other Fundy U’s did this, but at HAC the preacher boys practiced their sermons on the buses. There were the sermons for the bus kids (both going to and from church), and then there were the sermons for those lazy, lazy bus workers who only spent 16 hours of their weekend in ministry work. A lot of new, bizarre doctrines were formed during these rides.

  4. The choice of Fundy U *DEFINITELY* marks the territory of his future ministry opportunities! This is so true. Most Fundy churches will not hire a pastor/youth pastor/assistant pastor who did not attend one of their approved Fundy Universities, from their approved circle/sphere of Fundyism.

    Because, forget the fact that all true Christians will be together in heaven someday. . .we need to spend our 70 years on earth “defending the old paths” and “separating” from anyone not in our unique circle. It’s good to see some preachers still taking a stand, Amen???

  5. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of a newly minted preacher boy.

    Or live on a campus with hundreds of aspiring ones.

    The title of this post is perfect. I don’t know how many times I’ve heard Pope quoted with the implied meaning that knowledge and/or education is dangerous, when his real meaning was precisely the opposite: learn all you can or, for God’s sake, stay ignorant.

    A little learning is a dangerous thing,
    Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring.

    1. Of course Pope didn’t mean that education is dangerous!!
      He meant that thinking you know more than you really know is dangerous.

      Sorry. The English major in me just had to cry out. :mrgreen:

        1. Well, given that they regularly misquote the greatest literature of all time (the Bible – discounting that it is literature, of course), it would logically follow that they’d misquote other great literature, too.

        2. “To err is human- to forgive, divine.” (Pope)

          We ought to forgive the Fundy Mini-MOG’s errors and heresies because he’s on a noble path, Haymen?

  6. I have mixed feelings about this stage. Our Pastor was a nearly retired, average church (200 – 250) kinda Pastor in the BBF…a good man (by that I mean, he wasn’t over-the-top) but the major malfunction started with the associate Pastor from Baptist Bible College East (now, Boston Baptist College)who was low on the used gray-matter but off the charts when it came to shout’n and bible waiving…his synapes were doing their job but the lobes weren’t retaining anything important. Anyhew, we had a pride of PBs (Doug, Dale, Matt…affectionatly refered to as “the Stooges”)who were so far up the associates butt, they could taste his lunch before the associate could. These guys would ride down the main street of Plattsburgh shouting “there’s no hope in the Pope”…cause trouble on base for the rest of us and generally made sure EVERYONE noticed them. Where are they now? One is a “Ruckmanite” youth pastor in Florida, one is a McArthur clone and the other went to Bob Gray’s school and doing SOMETHING self-righteous, I’m sure. Me? I’m sitting behind a keyboard gossiping about them.

      1. “so far up the associates butt, they could taste his lunch before the associate could.”

        sounds like a job for george

      2. Here’s an expression from a movie I just watched and the principal was refuting the parent’s lament that their son was a good kid who just needed, bla bla bla. “He’s a selfish monster with a heart made of shit and splinters” 😎

        1. Ruckman claims there were Ruckmanites before he even existed! What an ego! But what do you expect from IFBs, who believe the early xtians praticed their faith like today’s IFBs

        2. I have to admit, he’s good. Anyone who can shovel that much fertilizer each and every month has talent.

      1. Smith, I don’t dare go to your link. I read Susan’s, and my spirit is wilting under the sweeping generalizations and judgmentalism. Gotta go listen to some uplifting praise music exalting Jesus’ name!

        1. Oh you know it! What’s really interesting is that a group of Intelligence rats in the Phillipines have dug up so much dirt and muck on him and his associate because Dr. Ruckman was attempting to DESTROY a missionary…these guys (and gals) aren’t even Christians and they came to the defense of the missionary…if you hazard a visit, the link is…http://peterruckman.net/

          Apparently, Dr. Ruckman is now under federal investigation…http://soloescrituras.blogspot.com/2010/09/jeff-mcardle-and-peter-ruckman-et-al.html

        2. Both peterruckman.net and that other link are phony. That guy who has the solascriptura blog is a kook who just got arrested recently and sent to a psych ward for evaluation. He makes a bunch of false claims about people because he’s mentally unstable. He goes from sounding “spiritual” one minute to cussing the next. Just ignore him and move on…

        3. Kat, and you know this how? People cuss and express themselves in anger when they’ve been messed with. Secondly, how do you know that he was committed to a mental ward for evaluation? How do you know they are false claims? How do you know the links I gave are false sites?

        4. I happen to be married to one of the guys Sanchez has threatened. Look up Allen Sanchez on Facebook and you’ll see what kind of weirdo he is.

        5. This site sure is full of wonderful, encouraging people!

          Smith, I don’t care whether you believe me or not (since what I’m saying disagrees with your opinion, I’m sure you’ll dismiss it outright), but Allen Sanchez is a foul, deceitful, delusional fruitcake that couldn’t tell you the truth if you asked him what time it is. He was arrested on a felony count of unlawful possession of an assault weapon after brandishing it and making threatening gestures with it on a movie directed toward myself and many other men that are simply trying to serve God. In conjunction with his MANY threats, both bodily and mortal, toward both adults and children, preceding this incident, it was deemed necessary to address the problem legally.

          In addition, the information on peterruckman.com is about as trustworthy as Talk:origins (translation: it’s a bunch of stupid, baseless, libelous lies). Do yourself a favor and do a little research before you make a complete jackass out of yourself.

        6. @MC1171611

          “This site sure is full of wonderful, encouraging people!”

          As encouraging and wonderful as you? :mrgreen:

          I’ll come right out and say it – Peter Ruckman is a complete wacko. Even super conservative fundies don’t go as far as him. Assigning absolute perfection to an imperfect english copy of imperfect Greek and Hebrew Texts makes him (IMO) clinically insane, or at least veeeeery misguided..

        7. Ruckman is nuts. The fact that some of the other nutty people don’t like him does nothing to diminish his nuttiness.

        8. “He goes from sounding “spiritual” one minute to cussing the next. “

          A always revealing sign of psuedo-spirituality —expressed and illustrated by some on this site …and Ruckman for sure.

        9. “He goes from sounding “spiritual” one minute to cussing the next.”

          Like Ruckman doesn’t do that too? LOL 🙄

  7. Let’s not forget the “other” group of fundie PB’s who are Acts 4:13a qualified, just like the pastor who called them.

    Acts 4:13a, “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men,

    If it was good enough for Peter and John then by gid it’s good enough for any preacher! Hay-men? 😯

    1. “Acts 4:13a qualified”!
      That’s the best euphemism I’ve heard yet for “completely ignorant.”

  8. “The other possibility is that the preacher boy may decide that if John the Baptist didn’t have no book learning that he don’t need none neither.” Our pastor in a mid-western state gathered a few local preachers and preacher wanna-bes for a mini-conference. (Thrill.) One guy DIDN’T KNOW HOW TO READ. He said he didn’t need to because God’s Spirit would tell him what to say!!! I guess his wife would read him the Bible chapters. Arggghh.

    1. If you really want to impress ME…break out the camel’s hair girdle/loin clothe, eat locust and wild honey (good luck getting to it) and don’t bathe for weeks on end….

    2. I always like to remind people that John the Baptist’s head was cut off and given to Herod’s wife’s daughter Salome as a prize for dancing naked before Herod.

  9. Or, in the case of an aspiring preacher in our church, you listen to tapes of the hardest, most judgmental preachers you can find, such as Phil Kidd, and pattern your vocal inflections and illustrations after him. It doesn’t matter that our pastor, a great man, has warned him against this way of preparation, the boy does it anyway, and has consequently developed more “convictions” than God Himself! he is quite eager to share them with us when the opportunity arises, too. nobody takes him seriously.

    1. “…and has consequently developed more “convictions” than God Himself!” -Jesse

      I remember the moment that came shortly after I graduated from high school and my family began to get flack for my younger brother dating a girl in church, the moment that it occurred to my incredulous young mind that these rules weren’t even *about* God anymore. In fact, the things people were doing anything spiritual, they were simply making lifestyle/preference choices and trying to enforce them on us.

      The scornful and disdainful attitude with which our former “camping buddies” berated/talked about/ignored us with was the eye-opener for me. I’m actually kind of glad that I got to see it firsthand, as it did more to convince me that the IFB “unspoken rules” were completely unrelated to what God wanted than any abstract explanation could have.

      I remember hearing someone once remark of the group that, “If God Himself came to them and told them not to follow those rules, they would still be doing it!”

      1. Becky, there was a newly married kid in our home just this week who was trying to indoctrinate me on the proper, “Biblical” doctrine of espousal. I listened for a while, as he laid out his case, then I told him of the many flaws in his thinking, the first was that modern-day law and culture doesn’t provide for that system, and there were so many different ways people found a bride in the Bible it’d make your head spin. I think they all mean well, and the object is to keep their daughters pure till their wedding day, but in my estimation, most of the kids who were indoctrinated with that foolishness snuck behind everyone’s back, and did what they wanted anyway, deceiving their parents, and totally shooting more bullet holes in their “Godly” convictions. But I digress. this is about preacher boys.

    2. Jesse wrote, “and has consequently developed more “convictions” than God Himself!”

      Much truth in this statement.

  10. “He will rise up and call himself blessed.” And if he doesn’t it’s because he’s having you do it. Our old pastor actually had “standing votes of support”–he would say something and have everyone who agreed with him stand and clap. These weren’t statements about the truth of God’s Word or anything like that, they were statements like, “Yes, I told that person never to come back to church, and I’d do it again! Agree with me? Stand up and clap! Tell those around you to stand up and clap! Tell them to get it right, or get out!” Woe be to those who chose not to stand, espcially if they taught in his school. Hell hath no fury like a power-trippin’ pastor.

    1. @grace, this is sickening. Since when does a congregation become a posse? A shepherd doesn’t train his sheep to perform for him or to sing HIS praise. Instead a shepherd cares for the sheep, protecting them, encouraging them, feeding them, leading them. A shepherd SERVES!!! I bet this pastor enjoys his thrice-weekly personal cheering section. I bet he leaves those services REALLY proud of himself. Ick. Ick. Ick.

      1. A Shepherd serves? What a thought? the deacons in our church were the most powerful. I always scratched my head when we went over the qualifications when it was time to vote for these powerful men. Are they going to serve or just rule over us? The latter.

        1. No kidding! A lot of people on this site have been burned by power-hungry pastors, but I’ve seen a LOT of powerful deacon boards who really run the church and give the pastor fits. I’ve heard of good men voted out or crushed into depression after years of dealing with men who quibble and backbite and complain. My husband used to come home so discouraged and exhausted after deacons’ meetings; he eventually stopped telling me about what went on in them because I’d get REALLY mad! Now we’re going to elder rule, and we plan to have deacons and deaconesses (!) who are biblically qualified and who have hearts to serve (as the elders are to as well).

  11. In the old days, the country people (especially if they were Baptists) would distinguish between “Jackleg” (also spelled Jakeleg) preachers, who had no formal training, and “Mama-called, Daddy-sent preachers,” who had been through seminaries. The latter was a boy whose mother said, “Son, I want you to be a preacher,” so his father sent him to college. Many folks considered the “Jackleg” preacher superior, since he was presumed to act directly on orders from God, and the “Mama-called, Daddy-sent” variety to be inauthentic.

    1. Speaking of being an English major, there’s a lack of number agreement between my first and second sentence above. Sorry about that. 😳

      1. Forgiven! I’m always nervous about my posts lest a typo or grammatical error slip in. (HeeHee – I ended with a preposition on purpose!)

        1. Ending sentences with prepositions is one of the things that I get most upset about!! Stop angering a weaker brother and do what you need to! Do not end any more sentences with the prepositions that we speak of.

        2. Yes, and don’t forget the resident linguists (ok, me!) who twitch at the very hint of prescriptivism, even if we are recovering prescriptivists ourselves. 😉 *attempts to restrain herself* There’s nothing wrong with stranding prepositions at the end of sentences!

  12. “Choosing a Fundy U is an incredibly important step in a preacher boy’s life ”

    Oh how true. A while back I was working at a camp in California. What I found was that the California was pretty laid back. In fact, girls wearing pants wasn’t really a problem, showing up to a service without a tie was fine. But when it came to translations you either had laissez-faire or hard line kjvo (like the extreme kind).

    The time it really hit me was during one of the teen camps. One of the kids in my cabin had actually just graduated from HS and was on his way to college. Of course I was a BJU guy and he knew that, in fact, most of the workers there were BJU. Well as it happens he was from a kjvo church and not only that he was planning on being a preacher boy. Any guesses as to what school he was planning to attend? So our first conversation was about what school I went to. He figured I must be a preacher boy and and when I told him I wasn’t he seemed pleasantly surprised. But then it came up…first meal we all had together, he’s only been with me for a couple of hours. And he asks, at the dinner table, “So, what is your view on Bible translation?” I almost spit up my drink. Hey I knew the conversation was going to come up, but the first meal in front of everyone else. I wanted to say, “Woe slow down buddy there is plenty of time for that.” For this guy nothing else seemed to matter. We were going to be at odds the whole week even if I was KJVO (which I wasn’t) merely because I went to BJU and he was planning on going to PCC solely based on their stance on KJV.

    1. I love my KJV and appreciate its history and its beauty. However, I am so annoyed at KJV-onlyism because its proponents are so often in my experience arrogant and rude, not caring about ANYTHING more than their opinion on Bible versions. I’m willing to have fellowship with other Christians based on JESUS CHRIST, but too many of them just want to yell at me because I don’t agree with them. It’s truly disgusting and unChristlike and prideful and self-righteous. I’d better stop. You can tell I’ve had a lot of personal experience with some not-so-nice KJVO folks! 🙁

      1. Amen, PW! As a former teacher and former Bible club worker, I prefered to use the NASB with my students – I could then spend more time explaining what the passage meant instead of translating individual words that the kids didn’t understand.

        But I don’t like to argue about translations. There are so many other things that are more important. At the Bible study I attend now there are as many different translations as there are people, and it’s kind of neat to hear how passages sound different in different versions.


        1. Jenni, once again, awesome post on your blog!!! I TOO agree with the BJU creed! Isn’t it ironic that while they say the creed represents the fundamentals, they will separate from you if you disagree with them on associations or music. Bob- Jones-approved churches students are allowed to attend on are now referred to in the handbook as “biblically obedient.” This bothers me so much! Being a fundamentalist was SUPPOSED to be about the fundamental truths – the creed – but it’s been so warped and twisted. 🙁

      2. Amen! A few years ago, in high school (my senior year), I was eating lunch with a couple IFB friends. They were KJVO. I wasn’t; in fact, that day, I had my NIV Bible with me in my backpack. I took it out because I wanted to look up a verse. The moment these “friends” saw what version I had, they began mocking it (calling it the “non-inspired version”) and, in essence, me. I tried explaining to them that it’s God’s word, no matter the version, and that the right Bible for someone is the version they felt most comfortable with… my “friends” weren’t having a word of it.

        They just started getting angry and being more forceful about their position and why it was the “right” one. They made me feel so horrible, I was actually reduced to tears. Not once did they apologize. They made me feel so ashamed that I went out the next day and bought a KJV bible so they wouldn’t get on me. I used it for a few years, but I’ve been back to using my NIV for the past 1 1/2 years.

        I don’t hang out with them anymore. One of them is entrenched in the IFB lifestyle. The other (thankfully) is slowly starting to see the light (his wife is kind of stuck-up, but I play nice and be as kind as I can to her. I’m female, btw, just so y’all know lol)

        1. This is typical behavior in my experience for KJV-only folks. God NEVER allows us to treat other believers with disdain or seek to shame them. Only arrogant self-righteousness tries to exalt oneself over another believer, and we know what God thinks about pride!!!

    2. It is idolatry to worship or hold sacred anything except God. That includes versions or translations of the Bible.

      1. True. They hold the Bible (KJV) in such high esteem that they forget about the real Word of God – Jesus.
        My last year of Fundy U they had Bible Truth Music in to do a conference on “godly” music. Byron Foxx got up and said “We need more songs about the Bible!” I thought to myself “The Bible is about Jesus, let’s sing about Him instead.”

        1. I get so frustrated when people criticize praise music not knowing that song after song is taken STRAIGHT from Scripture, especially the Psalms! Maybe they don’t recognize it because it’s often in NIV not KJV. My favorite was when a deacon’s wife demanded that we never sing “You are the God that healeth me” because she didn’t want to confuse people into thinking we were faith healers, I guess. Problem is, she was being more “holy” than the Bible. That IS a Bible verse. That put her in the position of telling us we couldn’t sing Scripture out loud in church. Wow! And I’M supposed to be the compromiser who’s unfaithful to the Bible????

        2. Oh my goodness, YES! We had a special speaker in last night, and he (as usual) criticized what he called 7-11 music that’s in “those contemporary churches.” You know, a phrase of seven words that you repeat eleven times.

          It was all I could do to not stand up and shout that not ALL contemporary worship music is like that! Such as Blessed Be Your Name (of course)Heart of Worship, Casting Crowns type songs: they have no idea and it’s a little infuriating 😛

        3. How about “I am so glad that Jesus loves me, Jesus loves me, Jesus loves me, I am so glad that Jesus loves me, Jesus loves even me.” That’s pretty repetitive, but they don’t care because it’s already been accepted into their holy hymnal. And how about the angels? They sing 3-infinity: three words – holy! holy! holy! (or rather one word!) – FOREVER around the throne of God!!!! I don’t think God is as offended at repetition as the fundies think He is.

    3. Q: “So, what is your view on Bible translation?”

      A: “I’m all for it.”

      Then I walk away.

      1. That reminds me of this anecdote.
        Supposedly, someone asked Mark Twain, “Do you believe in infant baptism?”
        Twain replied, “Certainly I believe in it– I’ve seen it.”

        I don’t know if Twain really said it or not, but it’s a good quip.

    4. A side story about that same camp. There was a week when several kids showed up with random translations (other then KJV). Now the camp wasn’t kjvo, but I think they must have felt some pressure from the KJVO types. So the directive was for us to force the children to memorize Bible verses in KJV and if the child didn’t have a KJV Bible I was to get one from lost and found for them to use.

      I just refused. If the kid gave me his Bible I’d ask, “Is this the version you use at your church.” If the answer was yes than that was the version he’d memorize from. Who am I to tell him what translation is acceptable. 👿

      1. My parents use the situation you describe as a reason for everyone to use the KJV: “It’s just so confusing when everyone has a different version. God wants things to be done decently and in order. There’s no order when you can’t all say the same verse in unison together. Sooooo, everyone should use the KJV.”

        1. By that logic, we should read the Bible and memorize verses only in Aramaic. You know, to avoid the confusion that happens when people use different versions.

        2. That was the stated rationale for my church quitting AWANA when I was six years old. This was in spite of the fact that AWANA still was offering a KJV version, but our pastor said that we kids might go to a competition and hear other kids quote verses from the other version and then we would get confused.

        3. See this could hold through as logic for a church. If a church said, “lets all use the KJV” then it would be understandable. That way when a pastor reads something or he quotes a verse it is recognizable. My church uses NIV, and all of the pew Bibles are NIV. But if a child shows up with say NKJV or even the NIV and that is what he uses at his church than I’m confusing him by forcing him to do memorization in practically a different language. 😀

          But really it isn’t that different. Sure if we are going to recite something from rote memory then we’d fumble over some word differences, but that is it. If you quote a KJV verse and I quote an ESV or NIV verse the difference would be in immediate understanding not in actual meaning.

  13. I often liken the KJO crowd to Israel when they were in rebellion but were so proud of themselves for being in possession of the ark of the covenant. It didn’t matter that they had missed the mark…they had the ark….they could do no wrong!
    The bulk, but not all, of the KJO churches I am familiar with are so full of unbelievers working their way to heaven. They have been sweeping their problems under the carpet for so long that you can smell the rotteness as you walk in the door. But can they see or smell it? They have their KJV and therefore must be right with God!

    1. Jon, my experience has been that the KJVO crowd have no life in the Spirit whatsoever…they are so consumed by the flesh that the KJV is their only harbor of pseudo-spirituality.

      You know, for the most of us, the Fundy/KJVO is all we have ever known and once you leave, the corruption, angst, dred and everything associated with Fundamentalism is something you vow to stay away from, but yet, there are few alternatives. So what do you do? I choose to stay home and teach my family rather than expose them to the ‘Elmer Gantryesq’ Fundamentalist or the socially liberal ‘others’.

      1. Ask the Lord to guide you to a congregation who are actually concerned about pleasing God. It took me quite a while to find one myself but it is very refreshing to be in a church that is balanced and also very serious about the work God has for it to do.

        1. We finally have a church like that too. Oh what a blessing. A church that is concerned more with helping abuse victims, orphans and victims of sex trafficking than pot lucks and singspirations and missionary banquets.

      2. “…there are few alternatives.”

        No, Smith, there are many alternatives. Fundamentalism hasn’t cornered the market on the truth (and I would venture to say they lost the truth long ago). There are a number of churches out there without that label and yet are wholly committed to God, His Word, and reaching the lost.

        Staying at home and teaching your family is not the answer – and in fact, it’s not biblical. At all. You NEED the body. A Christian unattached to a local church body is like a hand or a foot unattached from the physical body: useless and dying. You MUST keep looking, and if you check your prejudices at the door, you will be pleasantly surprised to find committed, spiritual brothers and sisters in many places. Don’t make the fundy mistake of continuing to isolate yourself.

        1. FUD this is not an attack at you. I understand your sentiment. But I have a radical view of “Church” that is so different than the “Church” I have so far experienced (in… wow, almost the half century mark now) and I have yet to see the Church body that Scripture describes, in real life. I am closer to some of the folk here than most of those I have ever attend “church” with.

          Warning: Rant begins:
          But the body doesn’t have to be attached to some brick and mortar ediface with a pupet-master in the pulpit either. You don’t have to attach yourself to a local social club, or join any membership in order to be a part of a “body.” You don’t have to sit through three lectures a week in order to have fellowship with like minded Christians. You don’t have to attend so called worship services to worship. I submit that “Americanized” Christianity is not (for the most part) about Christ at all. It is about power first, then numbers and money, an somewhere buried in the list you may find Christ.

          And before the claws come out and I get slashed, when you respond give me data, in cold hard numbers the percentage of Ministry expenses from where you attend. If your assembly’s giving to the poor, the needy and meeting real human needs where they are hurting is greater than the minister’s yearly salary then I’ll apologize to you. I’ll apologize if it is greater than the yearly electrial bill. If not my rant stands. 😎
          :End Rant:

        2. Don,

          Jesus went to Synangogue with imperfect priests and people as both child and adult “as was his custom” Luke 4:16

          “Israel-ized” Judaism had plenty of problems too, just liek your view of “american-ized” Christianity but that was /is certainly no excuse to refuse worship with fellow believers in protest, and is in denial of the teachings of scripture concerning the body of Christ.

          Please don’t defend isolation, and become worse than the fundamentalist in “seperation” mentality.

          (John 13:35) “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.”

          Sorry to come across so forward, but your comment was quite cutting and I am concerned for you.

          Peace, out.

        3. Ian, that analogy doesn’t make any sense at all. There’s no parallel between so-called “Israel-ized” Judaism and American Christianity. For one, how could Judaism have been anything other “Irael-ized”? There weren’t national variants. Judaism was an Israelite thing because they kinda founded it. The only thing America has founded is a bunch of cults.

        4. @ IanI appreciate your analogy. I am not advocating isolation-ism. I am advocating a radical departure from the organized, institutionalized, Americanized way of doing religion. I have not yet found the answer to it but it is out there. And it’s not in the social clubs that pass for “Churches.” Look at where “God’s” money is being spent, what it is being spent on and who is spending it. That’s why the preacher boy system is so corrupt… it is all perpetuated by those in power. And the preacher boys want that power. To control their own congregations is the end goal. The system is corrupt!

          And the Christ who came in flesh is no longer seen by a world that is in need for seeing the radical Jesus who came to testify to the Truth and give us life. All the world sees in Christainity is another corporate religion.

        5. LOL Don – I may have to rethink my handle now that I’ve seen its abbreviation. FUD, indeed.

          I don’t think you’re attacking me, and I think we agree a lot. Since I’m a now fundy escapee, I can discuss without playing the “you’re just being mean to me” or “you’re just an apostate, what do you know” card. 😉

          You’re right. The typical American church is more of a social club or power structure than anything. That is the problem. But that doesn’t mean all churches or that way or that we shouldn’t strive to be part of a body who is truly working as a body.

          I could probably get those numbers for you, our church’s monthly statement is always on the wall in the back. We do have community outreach ministries, and our pastor (who is not a dictator) continually emphasizes working out the Gospel in that manner. He also emphasizes the importance of being part of the body – not for control or for appearance, but because it’s a vital means of grace from God.

          I understand that just because my pastor/church is functioning as a true body doesn’t mean all churches do. I also understand that just because many churches are morally bankrupt and led by powermongers doesn’t mean they all are.

          I do understand, however, that cutting yourself off from the body, even imperfect, is always the wrong answer. Find a new body, yes. Look for a body whose shepherd feeds, guides, and leads and doesn’t beat, force, and shove – by all means yes. Find a body whose pulse beats with grace and love, please. They are out there.

          My husband and I nearly did that. We nearly cut ourselves off from one of the very means of grace God gives us. We were even in a good gospel-centered, love-filled, grace-filled church at the time (and are still there). God in His providence kept us in a position where we could learn to start reaching out to the body and becoming a true part of it – and now, thanks to that body, I’m involved in the local rape crisis center, helping a local adoption facility, and caring for others in the body more than I ever realized I could. Our body regularly helps teachers in the local public schools and participates in our community’s functions.

          I’m not saying that to defend myself or my church – I’m just saying, that if I had run away from this body out of fear, I would still be a shriveled pulseless limb.

          God is so great and powerful, He doesn’t intend for us to sit at home hunkered down trying to keep the faith. He intends for us to be part of the assault on the very gates of Hell – and those gates aren’t the way people dress or the style of music they choose. Those gates are the bastions of slavery to substances, child abuse, sexual abuse, physical/emotional abuse and manipulation, poverty and injustice. God always wins! Get out there and fight for the winning team!

        6. Don, Hearing you loud and clear. I just think “church” in America is light years away from what we “should” be doing, and I also don’t have the answers to exactly what that should look like. Just the idea that the MOG is gonna come in on Sunday or Wednesday and give everyone what they “need” doesn’t seem to make sense to me, this is just a man. I think that we have given this “under-shepherd” waaaaaay too much authority, especially in fundy circles, the guy may wake up with a new revelation and take the whole church into a ditch or “Jonestown” I can’t believe that in the U.S. for “church” everyone files in, sits down with their seats pointed fwd and then out comes the one with all knowledge critical for you and I, and then tells us what we need to know. What about everyone’s else’s gifts? When do they get to be utilized? I’m also hearing you loud and clear about all the expenses involved with staff salary, builings and their expenses. Did Jesus really want it to go this way? I really don’t know the answer to this, but to me it just doesn’t seem possible that this was the way our Lord wanted it to be.

          I have stated before that what matters to me is “what thus saith the Lord” After the fundy mess that I came out of, hey everything is wide open for me. I know there are wonderful,great well meaning people that are trying to good things for the cause of Christ, and I appreciate their efforts, but for most of the churches to have this sorta top-down type of set up with a pastor having so much authority, ehhhh, I don’t know. It’s certainly a far cry from our Lord Jesus walking in amongst a throng of people on the side of a mountain meadow and setting down among them and speaking and ministering to them, man I would have loved to have been there!

          Ok done my rant, should have warned that one was coming.

          Tks Darrell, it is therapeutic!

      3. “You know, for the most of us, the Fundy/KJVO is all we have ever known and once you leave, the corruption, angst, dred and everything associated with Fundamentalism is something you vow to stay away from, but yet, there are few alternatives. ”

        @Smith Seriously it took me a few years to figure out how untrue this was, but it is absolutely untrue. Smith, simply put you are too near Fundamentalism to see that there are Christians all around many of whom have no hang ups associated with Fundamentalism. My first job after BJU I moved to the college town near where I grew up. I should have been intimately familiar with the area and the churches there. Instead my parents, and even myself were a little worried that we’d even be able to find a suitable church. It took us 4 months, not because we couldn’t find one in that time, but because we couldn’t decide. Our next move was to Boston near where my wife grew up. Again she should have known of some churches to go to. Somehow she grew up thinking that Boston was made up of nothing but Roman Catholics. We’ve found tons of great churches and really are only restricted by geography.

        The point is that liberal is not a fixed state. It is a relative state. Where you are now 90% of christianity is liberal to you, but that doesn’t mean that they reject the gospel or are bad churches. Go out and see for yourself. Oh their music might not be as conservative, and some people might be wearing shorts or t-shirts, but you’ll hear the good news. You’ll hear Christ preached and God loved. When you are as conservative as a Fundy everyone is more liberal. Losen up and see for yourself the amazing world of Christianity outside of the bubble. Stop believing the lies from Fundamentalism.

  14. I wanted to laugh, but I could not.
    I have never been and never will be a preacher boy, but I have observed them and the wake of devestation left behind.
    Every paragraph revealed another characteristic of the PB. The negative effects on the PB and others takes the laugh from my heart.
    The truths of Fundyland typically make me smile and laugh, today it only hurts.
    Well done.

  15. Darrell, I’m hoping you will give these preacher boys some advice on choosing a good wife. He won’t want a woman who wants to go out to work, and who will have as many kids as the Good Lord wants to give them, and will homeschool them. She should have biblical standards like not wanting to vote so she won’t usurp authority over men. It wouldn’t hurt for her to have an organic garden, and be exemplary skills in preserving the food harvested from the garden. She should also play the piano, (white or otherwise) and be there to play it at every service (unless she’s in actual birth travail during the service – but surely she would plan better than that. She needs to be able to organize the church nursery, and teach those babies their Sunday school lessons.

    1. Dating a PB could be a lot of fun, though, more like an interview than a date.
      “So, your dad is a pastor? That’s great! You probably help him out, don’t you? You play piano? At every service? Aww, that’s wonderful. You’ve never taught Sunday School have you? You have? AND worked in the nursery?”

      Every “yes” answer in this interview would net you ten points towards a quick betrothal.

    2. Of course we must include grinding home-grown wheat kernels into flour for making bread while breast-feeding the youngest….

    3. There was a nice girl who was friends with my wife (then unofficial girlfriend) at PCC. I knew her a little. An Evangelist Major (kind of like a preacherboy who doesn’t want to have to deal with all of those ‘people issues’ in a church but still wants to yell a lot) stalked her because he told her she fit his qualification for an evangelists wife. She told the administration, but they wouldn’t help her out. Finally she had to transfer colleges to get away from the creep.

      1. “She told the administration, but they wouldn’t help her out.” 😯

        Have they not heard of lawsuits?

        1. They are not afraid of lawsuits. They would organize a spiritual beat down by a mob of people quoting that you don’t go to law against a “brother.” The Delphi Effect is one of the fundamentalist’s most effective tools.

        2. And they have a passel of lawyers ready to defend them for little to nothing against whatever you can get for a lawyer.

    1. Or, he can get Beneth Peter’s Jones book “With Heart and Hand: a Manuel for Women in God’s service”. It’s a textbook on how to be a pastor’s wife.

      If he’s not a Bojo grad, I’m sure there are similar books from other campuses.

      Hate to disappoint, but there’s no mention of pianos. 😉

      1. Well, now that you brought it up, if Preacher Boy marries Piano Lady with her own white baby grand – even closer to that dream job as head dude and dudette at IFB church.

    2. When your kids become badges to decorate your religious sash, you know you’re not doing it for Christ anymore…IMO, anyways.

    3. How do you guys find these crazy websites? I can’t figure out how she equates voting with living her life every day. Does she think she’s the only one that takes care of her family? Oh, yes, I guess she does.

      1. I’m one of 9. We were way wierd. Just glad there was no internet when I was growing up. I’d hate for my mom’s views on parenting and Christian womanhood to be saved for posterity.

  16. I was one of those PB at one time at a Fundy U. Now it wasn’t one of the crazier colleges, but was still one of them.
    It wasn’t until I graduated, that God showed me grace by never letting me get a “job” at a Fundy church. It was kinda hard to realize that the degree I graduated with does nothing for my righteousness.
    So, in a sense, God used my Fundy U experience to get me out of fundamentalism. Ironic much?
    By the way, I still don’t have a job at a fundy church, but am in the elder process at a church plant in Centennial Colorado.


    1. Are you Acts29? We’re not officially, but we’re involved in a replant and are really excited about getting outside the four walls of the church and starting to be part of community (with the purpose of showing them Christ). We are definitely a missional church.

        1. Yes! We’re very excited about seriously reaching out and showing Christ! It’s also scary – scary because our “circles” (we’re BJU grads) are rejecting us and saying we’re preaching another gospel. 😥 It’s also scary because it’s a lot easier for me to stay busy doing “churchy” things than to reach out. I’ve kind of been insulated in Christian school/college/ministry for so long that I’m safe and comfortable and reluctant about going outside the bunker. But I want to, because I believe it is God’s will!

          BTW, I was at the Acts29 conference in Denver at L2 in May (I think) of this year.

        2. It’s cool that you were able to mention the Acts 29 network without someone immediately replying with a comment about how fundy Mark Driscoll is.

        3. @Tony P, I’ve tried to stay under the radar on SFL and just focus on the fundamentalism I’m learning to repudiate and not espouse a particular group or preacher, but I was so excited to see Bobby’s church link that I outed myself!

        4. PW – you are preaching another Gospel – the Gospel of Jesus Christ. *They* are the ones who are preaching a gnostic gospel.

        5. What Dan said.
          And be proud that your gospel is “that” different from the IFB establishment. Jesus preached a radical gospel to the establishment in his day as well. Only God can open blinded eyes to truth, so unlike the IFB cult, we just have to be faithful in our witness and testimony… not reponsible for getting “successful” results. We only have to keep expositing truth and let God do the work in the hearts of those we come in contact with. I don’t have to “fix” anyone and I don’t (and can’t anyway) get them “right.” Those who attempt to set everyone “Straight” on their thinking and doctrine only make their converts two-fold more a child of hell than themselves.

        6. Cool! We were worshipping and learning in the same room! My husband and some others elders-to-be had gone to another one the year before, but it was my first. My favorite thing was realizing that these people – who looked different from what BJU prefers, who sang music that BJU hates, and who have associations that BJU would never tolerate – actually are very serious about Jesus and the truth of the Gospel. I’ve always been told the evangelicals are compromisers; only fundamentalists are sincerely following Christ and taking the Bible seriously. That conference proved to me that thinking was WRONG!!! It’s been so enjoyable for me to step outside the IFB world and be able to view other Christians with love not suspicion.

        7. I totally agree. I still have fundies in the family who think we are liberal because we don’t look conservative, listen to rock and roll, and have an occasional beer, but our theology, use of Scripture, and philosophy is way more conservative than theirs. I was always told that evangelicals were one step away from liberalism. I now notice that those who are steeped in legalism, and moralism like I was, they are the ones who add to the gospel. Jesus uses pretty strong words for them.

  17. What are even scarier than home-grown Preacher boys are the foreign men who come to Bible school in the states, become clones of American PBs, marry American women, and then finish off their stint in American by going on deputation for years.

    I met a wife in this situation. She’d been married to him for five years, only visited his home country once, and couldn’t speak the his language. I don’t think she was ready for the culture shock that was in store for her. 😕

  18. I worked with an evangelist, Joe Boyd, on one of his campaigns and I remember his instructions to us “would be preachers” were pretty weird. For instance, crossing our legs and letting any skin show between our socks and pants could drive a woman into a frenzy of sexual desire (my wife says this isn’t really the case). He did give me one good piece of advice when he suggested that we (preacherboys) should aim at the side of a toilet bowl when using the washroom after being invited out for dinner on Sunday afternoon.

    1. “… crossing our legs and letting any skin show between our socks and pants could drive a woman into a frenzy of sexual desire… ”

      How I wish it were that easy!

    2. Ankles, AFAIK, don’t really turn many people on. I think the evangelist was projecting. Does any man (besides the most repressed) really think women’s ankles are the height of titillation?

        1. OK, I can see a definite possibility with the repression angle. That would be a lot of repression.

      1. I remember the days in my Christian school where we had the dress code “talk” and we were told by the pastor’s wife that toes were seductive…that’s right, toes. We had to wear socks and hose at all times and closed toe shoes. I was afraid when she told us this stuff that we were all getting a glimpse into her husband’s preferences. 🙁 *shudder*

  19. “He will hone his preaching technique, copying the voice and gestures…”

    Reminds me of the replays of evangelistic services held in foreign countries in which the interpreter not only translates the words of the famous evangelist, but also imitates his emotions and mannerisms.

  20. Actually, I find the idea of the untrained volunteer bus mechanic to be much scarier than an untrained preacher! 😯

    1. … Not to mention untrained bus driver. How many tragic church bus accidents do we hear of every year?

      1. I was involved in 2 bus accidents 🙁 One of them a drunk driver hit the bus head on, I was sitting 3 seats back, a seat picked by me father to avoid the influence of the worldly bus children until I caught the eyes of the boys on the bus and then I went to maximum security right behind my father when he was driving, and the impact knocked my shoe off and it lodged itself behind the heater in the front. Good times… (No one was injured either time, so I don’t feel bad about saying that.)

  21. Totally true on the “pick your college, pick your friends” quote. Back when I was still considering seminary (that’s hard even to type) I announced that one of the schools in the running was a more reformed baptist school in Michigan, well-known in fundy circles. The next time I went on visitation, I “ended up” riding with our pastor (very not reformed from a large well-known fundy church in Wisconsin) who lectured me on the dangers of reformed theology and warned me (gently, I guess) that if I did go to that school, I’d be cutting myself out of consideration by a lot of like-minded churches to ours.

    (SFL: Further education, but only if it validates past education.)

    And reading that first paragraph, I’m shocked at how far I’ve come. Jordan, PLEASE tell me I wasn’t that guy.

    1. “I’m shocked at how far I’ve come.” — then again, didn’t fundies always say that it’s a slippery slope? I mean, look at me: I started listening to Steve Green, and now here I am at a Third Day concert! Oh, my! How I’ve fallen!

      1. I’m jealous. I’m slipping quickly, but have not yet had the opportunity to make it to see Third Day in concert. I try to slip more quickly by turning the volume up in my car.

        1. “Lift up your face! Lift up your face! Salvation is calling!” – great song off their new album! Also heard live but I’ll try not to rub it in! 🙂

      2. once you get downslope to toby mac you won’t be able to see the slippery top anymore, its a freedom that has no comparison in this life

        1. I’m convinced that from Fundyland this is a slide ^ up.^ You have to descend into the valley of Fundiedom. Freedom and liberty are in the plains and vistas above the Valley of the shadows of Death, above the Fundie Wastelands.

        2. Good analogy! They only think it’s a slippery slope down because their eyes are blinded by fear.

          BTW, I almost raise my hands when I sing along with “Days of Elijah” in the car. This would HORRIFY my parents – the music, my enthusiastic response, and the fact that I’m not holding the wheel with both hands. 😆

        3. I think hardcore fundies realize they are living on a razor’s edge (of their own making) and have no room to accept any variance or disturbance without the entire house of cards falling in on them!

        4. And I think that analogy is a subconscious hint at that mostly subconscious realization (or possibly conscious that they are fighting with having misidentified it as sin or temptation).

    2. This happened to some of my friends. One wanted to go to Masters and his pastor flat out told him that if he went to that school he would not be welcomed at his church. When my friend told me this story I was shocked. I mean is this what education is really about, Validation? Many people purposefully choose seminaries outside of their comfort zone to be better balanced. It seems perfectly reasonable. But oh well.

      1. 2 of my youth pastor’s grandchildren are currently at Masters. Their parents are loyal BJU graduates. They chose not to go to their parent’s alma mater because of the accreditation thing and the fact that it’s just too much with BJU on the resume.

        1. Elderly people with the patience and cioncern for teens can be amazing mentors and youth workers/pastors! Very iffy/sketchy at any age in fundyland, but in real churches, they are often the absolute best, even though “not cool”

  22. Where you get your Fundy undergrad/masters “credentials” is key to which organizations might eventually grant you your eventual “Doctorate”.

    Think carefully or you may have to actually spend some money for a 6 week summer program in order to come up with the additional paper on your wall before you add those letters to the stationary and the church sign.

  23. A pastor gets his authority from the church that appointed/elected him. It is a Biblical position that God gave for the edification of the Body.

    “Preacher boys” (an entirely extra-biblical word and idea) have no authority. None. They are not a pastor.

    Yet so many of those at Fundy U Florida in the Pastoral Ministries Major were constantly and arrogantly insisting on being treated not as a equal, but as a superior by those in other majors, and of coarse by all the girls. In their mind they didn’t need a church – they were mystically ‘called’ like an apostle to be a superior man. I know they were young and I hope many of them got over it; never-the-less it is sad to see those who aspire to be spiritual leaders in such a mess spiritually. On a power trip before they even have any power. 🙁

    1. It is sad, especially when Jesus already set the disciples straight on that 2000 years ago!!! In His kingdom, the leader serves.

  24. I was a preacher boy for approximately 1.4 seconds. I’m at BJU to serve my parents; the education is good enough that I can suffer through the rules for a few years. But the preacher boy classes… ugh. I got out quickly. Now I’m a Humanities major taking an inordinately large amount of biblical language classes.

    1. That’s the wrong reason to go to any school. You will regret this choice later. You need to live your life, not the life your parents have planned out for you.

      As a side note: Best of luck finding a job outside of fundyland with a BJU degree.

      1. I agree in general with Faith’s warnings, but I graduated with a History degree (not the most serviceable in any case) from BJU this year and I’ve found good employment. It’s taken alot of work and I’m probably not making what I could otherwise. Do I regret going to BJU? You bet!!!! 😀

    2. I did the same thing at WCBC. Suffered through 4 years of lunacy to please my parents. I’m not sorry I did, because had I not gone there I would not have met my wife, nor started my journey out of Fundamentalism. Sometimes you do have to make a few sacrifices for the sake of some relationships in your life.

      1. Yep, accreditation is a big problem … try getting a teaching job anywhere outside of SC and not in a Christian school and you will be laughed out of the building. Really rots that I have a B.S. and an M.Ed., plus six years’ teaching experience, and I can’t get a teaching job. Instead, I’m a cashier. A happy cashier healing from a long stint in fundyism, but a cashier nonetheless.

  25. In my experience not a lot of thought goes into what fundy U Christian kids go to. It depends on what church you were brought up in and how you’ve been influenced already.

    I was raised in a GARB church. It was a lot more fundamental when I was growing up than it is now. I chose to go to BJU so I could study graphic design. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. I knew there were a lot of rules of course. But I did not know how much the university rules were tied into your personal relationship with God. My point is, in my experience I plead ignorance. If I had truly been able to think for myself I would have made a lot of better choices in my youth.

    1. Some folks in my small GARBC church were kind of annoyed that I chose BJU instead of one the of GARB-approved colleges like Cedarville or Baptist Bible College in Clark Summit, PA.

      “I did not know how much the university rules were tied into your personal relationship with God.” – so, so true! Or the burden of “telling on” other people (which I never did).

      I also didn’t realize that often the only thing people know about BJU is that it’s “racist”. This is a bad testimony and embarrassing to explain. (An interracial couple asked if they were welcome at our church because they saw on our website that we were BJU grads. We rapidly said, “Yes!!” but were so grieved that THAT was the perception of those outside our circles.) Also I didn’t realize how much of an impediment an unaccredited degree would become in the following years after I graduated.

      I loved most of my time at BJU, but when I graduated, I was definitely ready to be out from under the repressive rules. Now, of course, I’ve changed in many ways and will not be recommending BJU to my children. This is hard for me to admit. (I’m still new at this ex-fundy thing.)

  26. yes, BBC and Cedarville. The kids I know who graduate from those places seem happy with their education and had a lot of fun. I went to BJU because they had an art department, not available at the GARB colleges. I was disgruntled with some extreme stuff being taught there my first year. But they slowly got a firm grip on my conscience. I believed I was truly doing my best to be right with God, but never more miserable! I became a promoter of BJU to my GARB family and friends. I really fell into the trap of believing they are the only ones who really get it right. (not the dorm rules side of things, but their Bible teaching).

    freshman year 😯
    sophomore 😡
    junior 😕
    senior 💡
    grad student 😥
    graduate telling coworkers i went to BJU 😳

    there’s no good face to portray my nervous breakdown.

    1. I worked for a guy who went to LIberty. I was a very uptight grad from PCC and didn’t really mix well with others who weren’t like me. My boss was unsympathetic with my Christian feelings being offended and would argue with me that Liberty was not really a Christian College. Looking back, I hate how I was then, but still think it’s pretty bizarre that you can attend a Christian School and not know it is??

      1. that is strange, especially since Falwell is so well known for his outrageous statements that a lot of Christians want to distance themselves from.

    1. If you are related to Don Chitty, who’s spent several years as an IFB pastor harassing people on New Mexico’s Navajo reservation, I will eat my hat.

        1. I’m sorry. Wish I could help you there. :O

          Guess he needed to go tell depressing falsehoods stories about his church members.

  27. Was offline yesterday, not sure if this counts as a gesture, but my faves were the ones who would go through their outlines, and hold up which numbered point (along with announcing the outline) as they went along. It always made me wonder how many people realized their intelligence was being called into question from the platform.

    I’d love it if someday someone identified a core 100 gestures, identified the originator to name it, and start a list of known users. I could laugh at a list like that for days!

    Anyone else got some fave gestures (I know late in the post to start a thread)?

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