It is never enough to use only one logical fallacy when forming a fundmamentalist argument. The building blocks of nonsense must be gently bludgeoned into place one atop the other to form a wall of illogic that stops thought and runs one into danger of exhausting their Latin vocabulary. Consider these beautiful bits of logic…
The Post Hoc Ad Absurdem Non Sequitur: “Prayer being taken out of schools led to the founding of the Emergent Church which will eventually lead to everyone being unsaved, drunk, and buying foreign cars.”
Or perhaps the Ad Hominem Circulus in Probando “Emergent Church types are nothing but a bunch of unsaved drunks becuase nobody who drinks that much could possibly be saved.”
My personal favorite is the Plurium Interrogationum Ad Verecundiam “Are you still an unsaved drunk Emergent Church member even though that’s clearly unbiblical?”
Line upon line. Precept upon precept. Fallacy upon fallacy.
So true. A lot of their dearly beloved dogmas are built upon faulty fallacies to begin with. It is like a rocket pointing straight into the ground. Can’t go up if you are facing the wrong direction.
This is a major catalyst for me. I started off way down with easy things to pick off and worked my way backwards. Finally I figured out that the whole thing is faulty down to the core. The whole of IFB is built upon a fallacy. It took a while, but it was freeing to finally see it. Freeing to finally realize it. Freeing to finally be free.
You shouldn’t have to check your mind at the curb to have your religion. God created us thinkers and we should use our mind. If you have to suspend all logic and reality to have faith then you don’t have faith at all.
Thank you, Mark, for voicing exactly what I’ve been thinking – God gave us both our Bibles and our brains and He wants us to use them.
It scares me when I hear pastors both quote the passage about the church that “searched the Scriptures daily” and object to anyone’s asking them about particular points in their sermons.
That’s one of the major doctrinal things that did it for me.
Is a “faulty fallacy” true?
Ha! I saw that too!
🙂 Oops just realized that. Ummm, I’m going to go with no 😉
And here be the real “logic” behind many who leave “fundy-ism”
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/november/27.40.html
Considering Fundie-ism has nothing for anyone who can think with their God given brain and ability to to use it… it is small wonder that this age group and demographic leaves the hollow religion that is, all shadow and little substance.
It took me several years longer to realize the IFB was shadow theatre played by empty socks projected onto a blank wall.
“unchristian” was one of the first books I read on my way out of fundamentalism. Another was “Love Your God with All Your Mind: The Role of Reason in the Life of the Soul” by J.P. Moreland. And also “Blue Like Jazz” By Don Miller.
Until Americanized Christianity fulfills it’s God ordained role as outlined in passages like Ephesians 4, then more and more will see Christianity as merely another religion vying for their allegiance, time and money.
Love Your God With All Your Mind is an amazing book. It was required reading for a class I had in college last year. I’m reading it again now for a second time; a lot of good information in there. JP makes many excellent points.
That is a large part of why I left the baptist church. A woman with a brain and dreams of something other than teaching sunday school or leading the choir isn’t welcome in a fundy church. That and the fact that while Jesus exhorted us to be, “Wise as serpents and mild as doves” (IIRC the verse correctly) fundy leaders seem to think it’s best not only to refer to us a ‘babes in the lord’ but keep us that way too.
It seems like they want to keep us uneducated about certain things so we won’t go book learnin’ and start questioning things we find wrong with their theology.
Just don’t be afraid of *all* Baptist churches! I go to an American Baptist church (also affiliated with the UCC) where women are encouraged to use the gifts God has given them.
The article is ok, but he underplays the reality of this generation. He sort of glosses over the root of the problem.
“Tired of dealing with a guilty conscience and unwilling to abandon their sinful lifestyles, they drop their Christian commitment. They may cite intellectual skepticism or disappointments with the church, but these are smokescreens designed to hide the reason. “They change their creed to match their deeds,” as my parents would say.”
This is exactly what Fundamentalism does. Instead of understanding that they messed up, ruined the lives of countless children, they call you a sinner, a rebel, taking the easy route and just excusing your sin. That *is not* what is happening with this major cultural shift. Young people are not leaving the faith because they are too lazy to get out of bed or too rebellious to repent of their sin. They are leaving Christianity because they cannot, or people won’t let them, wed their mind with their faith. They are told that you cannot believe evolution and the Bible. They are told that homosexuality is a choice and believing anything else is a sin. They are told that you must be a conservative to be patriotic and you must be patriotic to be a Christian. Quite frankly they are told so many illogical and faulty things that they just can’t take it anymore. So rather than try they just quit.
But it has nothing to do with laziness or rebellion. Many of these young people have given their best only to be shot down with snide and arrogant remarks. They run into the brick wall of systematic theology (man made) and decide that faith must not be for them. It is really sad to watch.
Mark,
No, don’t mean to seem disagreeable, but evidence is to the contrary and exactly as the article says.
This generation is as the Bible says it is , and things have indeed “waxed worse and worse.”
We see it in society in all levels–education, goverement etc. all show the same levels of decline in anything that requires dedication or self sacrifice.
Fundamentalism or andy brand of Christianity is not to blame, nor is the education system , it is the lack of character in society that itself is anti-intellectual and pro-instant self gratification.
MR – I grant you that many fundy kids have been messed up by fundyism, and I will also grant you that many fundies don’t allow the kids to “wed their mind with their faith.” But after that your train runs completely off the tracks.
I don’t believe at all that evolution and millions of years is compatible with the bible, and I believe that there is much good evidence to support a young earth. You must know that there are great scientists who believe as I do. Now I won’t fight anyone over it, but it seems very odd that you would stick that in here as being an example of fundies not allowing kids to “wed their mind with their faith”
I absolutely believe that homosexuality is a choice, I could be wrong, but guess what, neither one of us has good hard science to back up our beliefs on this one, however an absolute bible truth is that homosexuality is a sin, our bible leaves no wiggle room on that. You didn’t come right out and say that’s its not, but I hope you know this bible truth. But again “Wed their mind with their faith?”
I personally think that the conservatives support more of my beliefs than do the liberals, probably abortion is the first thing that comes to mind, I don’t know any liberals that stand up for life in the womb. I don’t put my trust in men or political parties. I’m just really confused about how you chose these things to demonstrate or show why we are having young people leave the faith.
Is it ok if they don’t want to believe in global warming?
Yes, Americanized Christianity and Fundy-ism do shoulder most of the blame for the Leavers. It is not society and the lack of character that is somehow to blame. If that is true then Christianity is a weak religion and does not deserve to continue to exist. If that is true then the God of Christianity is a anemic, pathetic figure that is unworty of our worship and reverence. And it is the modern American Church that has presented this view of god to the world and to itself.
Today’s view of Christianity is merely an exercise in moral relativism. And as the article puts it, “Many experienced intellectual crises that seemed to conveniently coincide with the adoption of a lifestyle that fell outside the bounds of Christian morality.”
In the first 4 pages of this article much is made about church attendance and the numbers. It has this presumptive Baptist doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” about it. (The problem is were they actually saved? or were they only altar atheletes to start with?) Matthew chapter 7 comes to my mind because I was once one of these “Leavers” and I came back to church(the brick and mortar ediface) but after 38 years of playing church the Lord Saved me, redeemed me, Converted me. In doing so, there were times all I could hear was “Many there will be in that day who say, ‘Lord, Lord haven’t I done all these wonderful works for you’… and He’ll say, “Depart from me you workers of lawlessness, I Never Knew You.'” I don’t believe I was alone in realizing I was one and that there are many who will die and go to hell from the Church Pew.
The Americanized Church (on the whole) is bankrupt and has nothing of substance to offer a world that in desperate need Jesus Christ, that needs the Gospel. The rot is evident in the church itself. The way we do church is broken.
The article finally gets around to touching on Ephesians 4. It will not be until ‘we the church’ undock from the brick and mortar mentality, divorce ourselves from this idea that the gifts mentioned in Ephesian 4 are offices to be filled and that those offices sanctify the person occupying them, when we finally disciple every believer to use the gifts God has given them to be a witness and a testimony of God’s mercy and Grace and when we really become the Church, the Priesthood of Believers that we are supposed to be… then we will have answers and not platitudes; reason and not manipulated emotionalism; Absolute Truth that will stand before all detractors and naysayers. But now it is hid behind “Moralistic Therapeutic Deism”.
So it is not a weak, lazy generation of young people who are unwilling to discipline themselves… it is a weak, lazy, undiciplined Church that cannot/does not provide the answers and reasons for the hope that we say is within us, and those on the inside are seeing that Christianity is just another Religion among a sea littered with religion. We have divorced Jesus Christ and the Gospel from the daily life of the Church. Jesus has become not much more than just a good teacher we hear about during the Sunday morning lecture.
This all can be laid on the threshold of the Church. Not at the door of the brick and mortar but the actual Church. It is sad that this article spends so much time on Ministry as it is defined within the boundries of the four walls of a so-called church. We have failed to disciple. We have failed to proclaim and explain the Gospel of Christ as a daily meal every Christian Believer needs for nourishment. We have failed to allow folks to use their gifts to minister to the Body of Believers and we have made a “full-time minister” of the one who stands before us and lectures to us. Even he believes he is the minister, that he is the ministry.
I have to agree with Mark R:
@Greg and @Salty. I understand where you are coming from. Some people are downright apathetic. And sometimes overtime what I’m pointing to ends up in apathy. People give up trying. They give up fighting.
@Greg, The problem is that you give no wiggle room. You are doing exactly what I said is being done to disassociate so many young people. The examples I gave were purposeful because they are so controversial. Now, of course, on evolution you said you wouldn’t fight any over it…that is nice, but at the same time you said:
“I don’t believe at all that evolution and millions of years is compatible with the bible”
So what you are telling me is that you won’t fight anyone, but, oh by the way, the Bible isn’t compatible with what you believe. It is like saying, “If you believe that you aren’t a Christian.” And this is my point. Instead of having an intelligent conversation it all starts and stops with your interpretation of the Bible. It isn’t bad interpretation, but it starts and ends there. Fortunately God gave us a mind, unfortunately Christian’s haven’t been using it for decades and it is finally catching up with them in this generation. And that is really my point. Your “not fighting” is worse because before the conversation has even begun you’ve already doubted my salvation.
With homosexuality I’ll say that I’m convinced that it is not a choice. And that is because I’ve seen how difficult it was for many of my friends and colleagues when they came out. They spent years suppressing it, dating girls and trying to be normal. Finally they come out only to be cast out of their very own family, rejected by their church and cast out of normal life. Believe me, they would not do this if it were a simple “on off” switch. But you are right there isn’t conclusive scientific proof, but there are plenty of studies suggesting it isn’t a choice. But of course none of that would matter to you because it all starts and ends with your interpretation of the Bible. Even if the Bible says that homosexuality is wrong that has no barring on the topic I brought up.
“I personally think that the conservatives support more of my beliefs than do the liberals, probably abortion is the first thing that comes to mind, I don’t know any liberals that stand up for life in the womb”
Unfortunately that is the only thing that will ever come to your mind. Funny how many times I hear people shout that a Christian must be a conservative and this is the only reason they give. First just so that now you know a liberal who “stand[s] up for life in the womb” now you have me 😆 But really beyond this one issue that is it. And, well, lets just count what the conservatives have down in the last 40 years to “stand up for the womb.”
Now I’m not saying the Bible isn’t important, my point is that it isn’t the end all be all of life on this earth. It is the end all be all of spiritual life on this earth. It is our channel to God himself. And so it is a very, very important book. But God gave us intellect, he gave us science, and he gave us reason. To check that bag at the curb in order to have our religion is to have no religion at all. Theology is *man’s* understanding of God, it is not understanding itself. You have to use reason, logic, and understanding in order to come up with one’s theology. It only seems reasonable that we are aloud to have that same reason and logic on matters not explicite in the Bible.
To cross-reference this post with the Ladies Conference post, I am now casting you as Yoda.
Very well was your comment said
To add to Mark’s (excellent) comment:
http://www.democratsforlife.org/
So yes, it is possible to be liberal and support life in the womb.
Backing up Amanda:
Many years ago while I was still Fundy, I started looking for any pro-life people whose beliefs didn’t match mine or the Catholics. I was living in a town where fellow Fundies were ridiculously rare. To my very pleasant surprise, I found pro-life liberals, libertarians, Democrats, Greens, feminists, atheists, agnostics, pagans, lesbigays, vegans… you name it. I was on Jen Roth’s Leftout list for several years until it closed. Knowing that my non-Fundy friends and I shared common ground on the life issue made it easier to listen to their different POVs, and even revise a few of my own beliefs along the way. Turns out something else weird happened along the way: I learned that any of the liberal pro-lifers were also devout and thoughtful Christians who had it together much more than I ever did. Talk about shaking a little fundygirl’s world!
Agreed. The Christianity Today article still commits the strategy of it’s-your-fault you are not a christian. The author is just better educated and a better writer than his more conservative brethren.
I was not a shallow christian. I was in bible college preparing for a life of service when the doubts became a torrent. I am a PK. I sought answers within the church, but I got everything but answers. In the end I concluded that the church had no answers. (I will scream, if you post “Jesus is the answer.”) I earnestly and fervently wanted to stay, but the cognitive dissonance between my faith and my questions broke in the end.
MR – I don’t think that I have ever been mischaracterized on anything I have said or written as badly as what you have done in your last posting here. The straw men are astounding! I can see that you are obviously very bright, and you must know that you did a complete hatchet job on me, so I must conclude that you have an agenda or you are just wanting to win an argument, and not have that “intelligent conversation” If I’m wrong let me know.
Evolution – I’m assuming you believe in it, obviously I don’t, and I don’t think its compatible with the bible, that’s all, we disagree. How in the world do you derive from that stated belief that I tell people “if you believe like that you aren’t a christian?” What? “It all starts and stops with your interpretation of the bible” (where is this coming from?)
Homosexuality – Is killing wrong, how about rape, while we are at it, what about child molestation? Are all those sins? I have news for you, so is homosexuality! I’m not here to judge, God has already done that. His word calls this sin an abomination and perverse. God said (not Greg) that homosexuals have depraved minds, He also calls homosexuals reprobates and God-haters. I think you need to take up your interpretation of scripture with our Lord, and don’t even concern yourself with me.
I have put this out a few times now, no one has answered yet. Are the thousands that have “chosen” to come out of this wicked homosexual lifestyle and live God-honoring/fearing lives, were they lying about their pasts?
Conservatives – I don’t care if anyone is a liberal or conservative, but because I agree with conservatives about abortion, and this was the first thing that came to mind “that is the only thing that came to mind” Are you kidding? I can’t hardly believe that you would make such a jump in your conclusion. Are you really just pulling my leg, and I have taken the bait?
My whole point was to relay the fact that “our” hope is not in men of any party.
I think differently about the bible than you do, it is this precious book from which I found the way to the Saviour, it is this wonderful book that provides me with living water. The bible is alive, it breathes it lives, its message saves, it gives hope. It “is” the end all and be all (my opinion) God does not want anyone to put aside intellect, reason and science.
I submit that none of these things you put forth have anything to do with young people leaving the church.
Please don’t mischaracterize any thing in here, if you don’t understand something or want me to clarify something, just ask.
@Greg,
WELL said—-and, it keeps me from having to say it! 😎
I thought SFL was not anti-biblical, just anti-fundy weirdness.
Sometimes lately, I wonder.
Salty – Thanks alot, I have been wondering the same thing, of course when you have a forum such as this anyone can come on and say anything they want. I see this funny and apparently acceptable attitude here of attacking anything that is conservative. I mean we are all entitled to our opinion, it sorta seems that in leaving fundyism many of these folks are rejecting everything they heard or were taught while they were in fundyism. I submit here that we are all sinners, just because many of us have escaped fundyism doesn’t mean that everything we say and do is sanctioned by God now, and it is utterly ridiculous to think that everything that is said and done in fundy churches is wrong. These folks, many of them in fundyland, including pastors love the Lord with all their heart, and are mixed-up in certain areas. (God is gonna straighten us all out on some things when we get to heaven) There are thousands of wonderful christians sitting in these churches that know that their pastor is off on alot of things, but love him and are praying for him. I prayed earnestly for my pastor for years to get out of so much fundy foolishness. So to act as though *everything* done and said in fundy churches is wrong is simply ludicrous.
Folks on here regularly run down the tea-party, conservative tv personalities (think Beck, O’reilly, Coulter) (let me say all three of these can get on my nerves as well) and coversely support homosexuality, big government, Obama, and if you don’t join them in support of these things, that ol fundyism is still hanging onto you. People can support all of the above and not a peep out of anyone, but if you or I say something to support any of the above, we are immediately shown the error of our way.
Rambled enough.
last sentence should say “if we something negative about those things”
“…when you have a forum such as this anyone can come on and say anything they want.”
You are correct. Welcome to the big wide world of the internet. Just imagine that a site like this might actually attract liberals, conservatives, gay people, pro-lifers, pro-choice, fundies, ex-fundies, people in the process of becoming ex-fundies and who knows, maybe an atheist or two.
It’s called life and most of us have had enough of being told how we are to think, how we are to dress, who to vote for etc. etc. etc.
@Greg,
Sorry, I’m not trying to mischaracterize you in any way. And no I don’t have an “agenda” I have an opinion, but no agenda.
Evolution: You are missing what I’m saying. I get that you see no problem in my belief in evolution. Which is why you originally said “I won’t fight over it.” But your conclusion is that evolution is incompatible with scripture. What I’m saying is those two things don’t go together. If you tell someone that you believe something that is incompatible with scripture then you are sending them the message that they are incompatible with scripture. Which again goes right back to my original issue. Sure you won’t fight the person, but your conclusion is that their beliefs are wrong, which in Christian circles is akin to saying that they aren’t saved, particularly in Fundamentalist circles. Hence the issue. Someone asks, “How do we know God didn’t use evolution.” And suddenly people are going out of their way to say, “I’m praying for you.” Why? because you have a legitimate question about evolution/creation. That is my point. You didn’t outright question my salvation, but you might as well be when saying something like, “Evolution is incompatible with the Bible.”
“I think you need to take up your interpretation of scripture with our Lord, and don’t even concern yourself with me.”
Simply put, you are holding me to your standard Greg. That is my point. Theology is mans understanding of God. It is great, but limited. Ultimately I do need to take it up with God…and if Christians allowed other Christians that same benefit then we wouldn’t see people leaving the faith. Dont’ conflate your interpretation with God’s truth. They are separate. And I’ll take up my beliefs with God. But I was asking a simple question outside the scope of whether homosexuality is a sin or not. I never said it wasn’t a sin. I never said that God thinks it isn’t. All I said was that I think it isn’t a choice. We may disagree, but somehow because of that I need to check my interpretation? Interpretation of what? Where in the Bible does it say that homosexuality is a choice?
By the way homosexuality has absolutely *nothing* to do with any one of the host of crimes that you listed. I really have no desire to go into it, but it is telling that you list a bunch of crimes linking to homosexuality. *All* I said was I don’t think it is a choice. You went the rest of the way.
“I have put this out a few times now, no one has answered yet. Are the thousands that have “chosen†to come out of this wicked homosexual lifestyle and live God-honoring/fearing lives, were they lying about their pasts?”
That is an impossible question to answer. There are too many working parts to really answer it with any authority. Are they all lying, certainly not. I don’t doubt that there are some people who’s urge is far less then other people. Also by saying that it isn’t a choice that doesn’t mean I think people can’t change, or that God, the miracle worker, can’t change them. How much greater is the power of God if he can turn natural order of a person in such a fundamental way?
As far as politics is concerned, really when you boil it down abortion is the only issue that takes direct biblical import. All the other issues are either American conservatism mistaken for Christianity or just outright personal preferences read into scripture. That doesn’t mean that someone who is conservative doesn’t have a real biblical reason for being conservative, but it also doesn’t mean that someone who is liberal has no biblical reason either. Really don’t care about politics to be honest. I just think it is interesting how people find American conservatism so fundamental to the faith.
“My whole point was to relay the fact that “our†hope is not in men of any party.”
Totally agree.
“I think differently about the bible than you do, it is this precious book”
Maybe, but really I’m not so sure. This book is extremely precious to me. I find and learn about my savior and God through this book. And I’m sure you do as well. It is where we go from there. And these topics provide insight. The Bible can call homosexuality an abomination and yet they might not choose that lifestyle. Evolution could be true and the Bible intact. And one could be politically liberal and still believe abortion is wrong. Those are my points and to the end that religion tries so hard to not only deny them as possibilities, but to cast doubt on anyone who thinks them, that is the reason that people keep leaving the church. Not laziness, but simple bullheaded arrogance on the part of the Christian leadership. So quick to judge and cast down that they literally cast people out. So quick to assume that the person who questions established beliefs must have an agenda that they throw them out on the curb. I have think skin, but apparently not everyone does. And that is why people are leaving the church. They gave up on trying, they gave up raming their head against the brick wall.
MR – I’m pre-millennial
I’m pro-life
I’m conservative
I believe homosexuality is a sin
I believe premarital sex is a sin
I’m patriotic to the core
I’m for small government
I believe a man should work in order to eat
I believe in the trinity
I derive all of these beliefs from my study of the scriptures, I believe that they are compatible with scriptures, hence if you believe differently I would think that your belief would be incompatible with the scripture. So What! And wouldn’t that also make it your opinion that my beliefs were incompatible with the scripture? Couldn’t we discuss it and you show me why your different beliefs are compatible with the scriptures.
Also I could have fellowship with anyone who believes differently on the above few topics and do.
I don’t question anyone’s salvation if they disagree with me on the above topics. Really I find it hard to believe that we have to go into this minutiae, it seems extremely “nit-picky”
I would like to go on step by step and rebut on alot of other things, but I’ve got to go.
I continue to submit, and am convinced that none of the things you mentioned are reasons why young people are leaving the church.
“I’m pro-life
I’m conservative
I believe homosexuality is a sin
I believe premarital sex is a sin
I’m patriotic to the core
I’m for small government
I believe a man should work in order to eat
I believe in the trinity”
These are all great things. I’m not saying you shouldn’t believe them. In fact, none of these issues have to do with what we were discussing.
“I derive all of these beliefs from my study of the scriptures, I believe that they are compatible with scriptures, hence if you believe differently I would think that your belief would be incompatible with the scripture. So What!”
First most of what you mentioned in that list has nothing to do with the things I brought up. I brought up the topics I did, they are specific, for a reason. Because on those issues I believe that one can come to a different conclusion and not be in violation of any biblical principle. Or one could come to a different conclusion and base it upon scripture, and would be no more or less valid than your basis of scripture. Evolution and politics come mind for the latter and the “Is homosexuality a choice” is of the former. See the Bible doesn’t tell us if homosexuality is a choice. It tells us it is wrong, but that doesn’t change if it is a choice or not. So two Christians ought to be able to come to a different conclusion without any issues. Literal 6 day creation is really based completely on interpretation and doubly so for American politics. So it seems reasonable that two God fearing people could come to a different conclusion. My problem is when you force your conclusion on me. I don’t mind that you are conservative, or that you don’t believe in Evolution. More power to you. But I do mind if you claim exclusive rights to the interpretation of the Bible.
Now there are some matters with which there is no wiggle room. The deity of Christ is a prime example. For those who deny his deity they are committing heresy. On this in order to be orthodox one must conclude a certain way. But beyond that on certain other issues there is considerable wiggle room because either its scope is outside the purview of the Bible or the Bible isn’t specific on that topic. Again I chose my topics purposeful. American politics is an example of the former evolution is an example of the latter. Well actually evolution is an example of both.
“And wouldn’t that also make it your opinion that my beliefs were incompatible with the scripture?”
No, and that is the heart of this discussion. Even if I thought that my beliefs would make your beliefs incompatible with scripture part of loving a brother in Christ is to reserve judgement for matters of utmost import, such as the deity of Christ. Beyond extreme fundamental doctrines measures should be taken to ensure that you show love and grace to fellow believers so as not to isolate them or alienate them. People are working things out we change constantly. That is my point. Young Christians are coming to terms with what school, society, family, church and the Bible tells them. It all hits them at once and they have to weigh things out, it is part of growing up. As they work it out people should allow them to experiment and dabble. Let them come to grips in their own terms rather then judging them and telling them that their beliefs are against God and the Bible. That is the Holy Spirit’s job not yours. But Christianity has made it there prerogative to judge and that is why young people are leaving the church. They are sick of trying. They aren’t happy with the answers they get and they don’t want to be constantly judged while they work things out. They’ll come around, but not with judging.
“I continue to submit, and am convinced that none of the things you mentioned are reasons why young people are leaving the church.”
You really haven’t given me a reason why these aren’t reasons. But no matter. I know that laziness is not the primary reason. At least not in the circles I’ve lived in since FU. My friends, co-workers, church pals are really trying to come to terms with the issues. Some fall away and it is sad to see, but not hard to see why. Now of course there are lazy people. There are always lazy people, it is easy to sleep in. But a good many of my friends are coming to terms with these issues, not being lazy, and you can’t just brush them aside. To do so will only make the matter worse.
What the Christian church needs to understand is that excusing this issue with “it is just laziness” absolves them of any wrong doing. It allows them to be lazy. “Oh the issues of the church is just laziness what can you do?” But the real problem is their lack of love, their lack of understanding of the real issues facing this generation. They don’t allow questioning, but you have to, people have questions, tough ones that deserve tough answers. Ignoring that only marginalizing religion in this generation’s mind all the more. You can deny it, but it is there whether you admit it or not.
To reiterate. I understand that you don’t understand the topics. But they were chosen because they are topics facing this generation. These and many more. They are chosen because they deserve real answers, or real honesty. Sometimes it is ok for a church leader to say, “I don’t know.” It is ok for a church leader to listen to what young people have to say, listen to what they are struggling with. Its fine to say, “this is what I believe.” but you do so in love without judging. That’s all that I’m getting at. The laundry list of beliefs that you presented weren’t really part of the discussion…not sure how you derived those as part of the discussion to be honest.
Also @greg, I’m happy for your conservative beliefs. No one here is attacking you. Or at least not I. I’m the one that is different. I’m the one that has pressed the walls of these issues, but I’ve come to terms that my beliefs and stances are compatible with scripture even with your beliefs. But you commented and so I replied back. That isn’t an attack just a good old discussion. You are free to be as conservative as you wish, I just expect the same in return for my liberalism. 😀
It was a shock to me when I realized that all Christians don’t have to think in lockstep. Actually, BJU was a help to me in that. There were people from other denominations there when I was a student, yet we all could stand and recite the creed. The creed included nothing about pre-mil, pre-trib escatology (or music), and I began to realize that one could be a good Christian, even a Godly believer, and yet disagree on issues. That was not an easy assumption coming from a background of strong aescetic legalism.
I remember reading the “What You Need to Know About [Jesus, the Bible, etc.]” series by Max Anders in which he many times objectively presents different views Christians hold. Again – eye-opening.
I do think it’s easy for the church to point the finger at those who leave and say, “It’s all THEIR fault. THEY’RE sinful, lazy, willful, self-indulgent, etc.” But many times the sin has been in the churches when churches refuse to allow questions and elevate preferences or minor doctrines to major doctrines. I agree with you – Christ’s deity is a major doctrine. The timing of Christ’s return is NOT such a major doctrine though.
I remember being thrilled to find McDowell’s “Evidence That Demands a Verdict.” I’d always been told if the Bible says it, believe it, as if that meant you weren’t allowed to even think about it or wonder about it or question it. I loved that there were actually books about people thinking through objections and providing reasoned responses in defense of the Bible. As a young person, I had gotten the feeling that even WANTING proof meant you were sinning because faith didn’t NEED proof.
But I LIKED knowing that Christianity was being followed by intelligent people who had thought about it, not just by people with fingers plugged in their ears, eyes tightly closed, yelling, “I don’t care what you say!!! I believe it!” I believe it too, but I don’t want to be afraid of questions.
@Pastors Wife
Exactly, Amen, and Amen! A couple of weeks ago one of the elders at my church preached a sermon on doubt called “The D-Word” :-D, His passage was taken from Matt where John the Baptists doubts that Christ is the Messiah. This was the man who touched and saw Jesus, Baptised him and yet at a certain time doubted all the same. Doubt is real and it is an essential part of the faith. Fundamentalism and to a larger extent evangelicalism looks at doubt as a nasty word (hence the title). But it isn’t. It is a good thing, and to the extent that people come up with surveys and articles denying its existence or validity is the same extent that we continue to lose people. Marginalizing the fallen isn’t going to win them back. You have to figure out what the root problem is.
Mark – I’m not going to respond point by point to your lengthy response, btw I do agree with alot of it, you still throw those straw men out and then mow em down, but I know you are very sincere, and I believe that you are very concerned with young folks leaving the church and I appreciate that concern. The main thing that I want to address here is about my little list of conservative things I mentioned that I feel the bible supported. You stated that “my laundry list of beliefs were not really part of the discussion” I was simply trying to demonstrate that we all have beliefs that are derived from scripture. (not that those particular beliefs applied to the topic at hand) I may not believe or agree with you about yours and you may not agree with me about mine, just as I disagree strongly about the items that you originally cited as being reasons for young folks leaving the church, and I thought I made that point very clear in that comment.
Don’t for a moment concern yourself about people attacking me. I use alot of scripture and it oftentimes riles people up, they feel that I’m trying to bash them with it, and when I do use scriptures, I am very cognizant that those very verses apply to me as well. We must all search the scripture “for in them ye think ye have eternal life.”
By the way, how did the Emergent church come up? Are you switching churches Darrell? 😯
I was wondering the same thing. I can’t wait to see comments on this!
Haha! When did Lutherans give up the title of drunkest church on the planet? 🙂
Where I’m from we don’t have many Lutherans, but we do have a lot of what my dad calls “Whiskeypalians.” 😆
Ah – Lutherans drink beer, Catholics drink wine, Episcopalians drink whiskey? Fundies – they stick to kool-aid…. 😆
Q. What’s the difference between a Catholic and a Baptist?
A. The Catholic will speak to you in the liquor store.
Greg, I love it. I have a couple friends that are Catholic and they’re a riot. I love them.
@Greg-
Q- Why do you take 2 baptist with you when you go fishing?
A-‘Cause if there’s just 1, he’ll drink all your beer!
@Phatchick – Wow… ha ha. And, you might want to check your wallet, too.
Obviously, Rob, you don’t know any Episcopalians.
Granted.
Well, since the emerging/emergent (I’m somewhat familiar with the difference) church movement has now been called “dead” it’s about time the fundies started preaching against them.
I’m just anticipating.
Give it a good 25 years, I look forward to hearing the sermons when they finally found out it happened! 🙂
Darrell, the Fundies are still preaching about hippies. Buy the time they gain steam about the emerging/ent stuff, we’ll all be asking “what?”
Ha! The way your mind works. It is brilliant. But this is major anticipation.
I think the “emergent” is dead isn’t exactly true. The movement itself might be dead the but the sentiment and impetus lives on and that is both good and bad.
Where I came from, the “leadership” had never heard of the Emerging Church (probly b/c they weren’t very internet saavy) and still preached against the same ole stuff, pants on women, versions, soulwining, tongues.
When I went to ask my pastor about the EC he had that deer in the headlights look. Ditto about New Perpective on Paul, etc. Pretty much everything except pants on women, versions, soulwinning, tongues…
I’ve never heard of a church that preached against soulwinning….
I meant about – not against. Figured some one would call me on that. 😳
@Phatchick – Like!
Most fundies I know aren’t even aware of the Emergent church…
Or WAS an Emergent church.
That’s what my husband was saying! But fundies are going to be fighting against them for decades anyway, the same way they kept preaching against hippies and the USSR!
LOL! I love to hear people ranting against hippies! It’s amazing! I’ve always wanted to see a fundy parking lot w/ Goldwater for President bumper stickers. I’m convinced this exists somewhere.
Those that like John MacArthur are aware of it now because of the book “Truth Wars” in which MacArthur makes the mistake of equating emergent with missional, assuming they’re the same thing which they’re not. We’re dedicated to being missional, and we’re finding people trying to label us as emergent in order to discredit us.
Fundies are twits. Some guy (not an IFB, but a fundie none the less) posted on facebook how “all pentecostals are deceived and trust in emotion”. I’m not pentecostal, but I know and read a few authors. I said his comment was painting a very broad stroke, and challenged him to read Joseph Prince’s “Destined to Reign”. I provided some quotes from the book that showed him JP was a pentecostal but teaching the exact same thing he believed about grace. Instead of saying “Oh, I guess my comment was a bit broad, maybe some do teach pure grace” he started dragging up everything else he thought wrong with Joseph Prince…
“Fundies are twits.”
So much truth in so few words.
BTW, best fundy analysis ever: Emergent = exodus/exiting, so Emergent church = those who denied God but still like to hang out.
The ones that knew Emergent existed, thought it was the UU or atheists (and apparently drunkards).
Hubby and I went to an emerging church for a while. All it turned out to be was a bunch of Southern Baptists who didn’t want to admit who they really were, and a bunch of musicians who weren’t paying attention to the preaching anyway.
not only are emergents drunkards, they also smoke pipes. 😯 So, there’s two strikes.
Awesome use of the legitimate reductio ad absurdum. Which is one of those tools you have to use when talking about Fundamentalism…
This made my day. Seriously. I laughed so hard the endorphins won’t wear off until sometime tomorrow.
It’s happened so many times I can’t remember when this was or what the topic was, but some intrepid (read: Quixotic) young Fundy had quested into the comments to defend the faith. It devolved into about a dozen comments with him lashing out into some new fallacious territory and me pointing it out. It ceased to be funny after a while but it was an incredible display of the untrained intellect.
Best way to respond to a fundy who comes bearing “logic”:
“Have you stopped beating your strawman yet?”
Win.
LOVE! Straw men never had it so bad! 🙂
Like.
“have you stopped beating your straw man with that red herring yet?” 😯
Yes! I now have another retort to add to my repertoire to use against fundy so-called “logic:”
No fundy will stand a chance! 😆
Love it. “Ni!” is part of my everyday language. That and “Run away, run away!”
Or rather, vocabulary…
It’s late. 😉
LOVE IT!
We had a pastor who spent over a half hour on the word “detergent”, how it was different from soap, that the word was derived from the Greek word that means “to separate”, therefore sin and hell are separation from god. 💡 Now that is logic!
Actually, the way detergent works is that it chemically binds dirt to water. The opposite of separation.
but detergent DOES separate dirt from CLOTHES….something that any gid fearin’ 18 year old help meet could figure out…try to keep up here, Big Gary. Also, I’ll pray for you.
That’s particularly amazing since the word “detergent” comes from Latin and not Greek. The word is detergeo and it means to wipe away.
That’s some of that good old fashioned church basement Bible College linguistics right there bless God.
I suspect that you aren’t using the 1611 version of Webster’s!
Nope. Just my Latin textbooks.
There’s a 1611 Webster’s?? Did Good o’ King James sanction it too? Dang, the cool stuff I learn by reading SFL….;)
You learned latin in your basement Bible college?! That’s impressive. Your pastor MUST have been a “Doctor”… and drove a caddy.
no, no the caddy only carries the clubs and he drives a 72 Dodge Dart. I think Doctor Evangelist R. Pastor III does drive a Hummer, at least to the Golf Course on Mondays (after making his deposits at the bank). 😯
Yeah, to do his “Links Ministry”
goot wan!
No No No… I didn’t attend a basement Bible college. I went to a Bible college, but it wasn’t in a basement. I was referring to the pastor’s statements about the Greek language and how absurd they were. He must have taken Greek in a basement Bible college.
I took Latin at UNC.
The Affirmed Consequent Petitio Principii Argumentum ad Calvinius
If you listen to rock music you’re not saved
You listen to rock music
You’re not saved
So you listen to rock music
So you’re not saved
So you listen to rock music
So you’re not saved
So you listen to rock music
So you’re not saved
So you’re a Calvinist.
wicked, but in the good way.
The Argumentum ad Ignoramus:
As Dr. Hyles used to say…
I noticed in my first comment that I actually did not affirm the consequent but the antecedent. Oh well. The joke still works.
Ok, ok..I admit I am ignorant and have no earthly idea what an emergent church is or what “Ad Hominem Circulus in Probando” mumbo jumbo is..and I just recently graduated honors with a Dr’s degree from Old Paths in submission and child bearing hips.. 😎
Awww…a good fundy edumacation is not what its all cracked up to be these days…
Where I went to school they still preach against and write books in opposition to…. wait for it.. Being Seeker Sensitive! Yup, 10 years after that ship has sailed they’re preaching against it.
SFL: Preaching against “sins” no one is committing.
I know of an “evangelist” who still has on his web site that he is against neoevangelicalism in all forms (how many are there?), inclusive evangelism (what the heck does that mean anyway?) the current ecumenical movement, and the modern charismatic movement (Really? didn’t that sort of merge into the pentecostals or disappear?), and ecclesiastical apostasy.
http://www.bbcwccs.com/kenlynch/default.htm
He forgot Promise Keepers!
10 years ago when I was in High School they were still preaching against Black Sabbath and KISS and the ladies all had poofs in their hair. So in the late 90’s they were stuck in the mid 80’s.
It would have just been AWESOME if someone raised their hand and said, “Um, Black Sabbath broke up years ago, when Ozzy Osborne decided to branch out on his own and his wife/manager paid 1.5 million to release him but he still maintains a friendship with the former band members. And, KISS supports our troops, so that makes them okay, right?”
Hey! It’s 2010 and I still like Black Sabbath!
Don’t make me start singing some Crazy Train on up in heaya!
Honey, fundy preachers have been ranting against KISS for about 3 decades now. I first hear the “Knights In Satan’s Service” routine as a teenager back in the late 70s.
Actually, I and a few of my friends at church were fans of them and Alice Cooper, mostly because when our moms would go into our rooms and see the posters, they’d shudder.
KISS and Sabbath are both still around and a basic requirement for all non hip hop fans to listen too, so it’s still very applicable!
They knew what they were talking about/warning against ❗
God gave Rock and Roll to you! Put it in the sould of everyone! And I love love love warpigs thanks to our fundy hs science teacher constant drumbeat against Black Sabbath. Most of us would just snicker when they’d rant against bands noone knew at the time. Good times!
See? They were right!
Look how you turned out
😀
“Actually, I and a few of my friends at church were fans of them and Alice Cooper”
I just learned that Alice Cooper is actually a reformed Christian.
They’d all mark a big “R” on me for the station that I listen to. It’s ALL those guys and Pink Floyd (who I LOVE) and Black Sabbath and all those Hell-bound hippies.
Salty, I thought I was the only one who liked to pick on Rob.
Sorry, Rob, we love ya, but its just fun. 😉
Wasn’t Alice Cooper’s family IFB? I always heard that they were good Baptists in the church that I grew up in and how he was the wayward heathen.
@Natalie oh it’s everyone that are comedians on here! Just a bunch of jokers, and I apparently comment with a target on my back! 😉
It’s the PCC thing. 😉
Hey, that reminds me. Do you remember the “Battle of I-10” between Trinity and PCC? Eagles vs. Eagles?
Ya’ll always kicked our butts… badly.
I never got into the Eagles. I just wanted to know bhow my actual teams were doing. And I got assigned Palms Grille for work assistance (lovingly referred to internally as the sweaty palm), but included working concessions for Fri night soccer games, and Eagles basketball games. By the time I quit, I had already missed the Spirit (TM) of PCC we were all supposed to Catch. They hyped the TTU game (I think the claim was TTU gave sports scholarships, which I find difficult to believe). Computer lab was free during games!
Well, I got to cheer for our Eagles basketball. Yep, all the home games. And, our team was REALLY bad. I didn’t really care, I liked cheering more than I liked watching us lose.
Bwahahaha!
Sounds like a classic fundy training to me!
Wait! Wait! Is the “emergent church” equal to those wicked evil hated ecumenicals? You know, those horrible people holding hands with the Catholics, gays and baby seal killers?
But they are not as bad as those gay catholics that kill baby seals with puppies…. but we can even join forces with these folks so long as they are pro-life, 2nd amendment, Republicans. 😕
And, not to mention, gives A LOT of money.
Verba sine sapientia:
Happens anytime a fundy opens his mouth. 🙂
Speech w/o ???? Thought?
Words without wisdom 🙂
LOL I love Latin 🙂
Cisterns without water….
cisternae sine aqua
Under this logic, Jesus and Martin Luther wouldn’t be allowed to join a fundy church, much less get an honorary Dr’s from Olde Paths.
I think we all know both of them would be VERY unwelcome.
argumentum rexjaccobus:
The King James Bible is the Word of God.
The New International Version is not the King James Bbile.
Therefore, the New International Version is not the Word of God.
(i.e.,
A cat is a mammal.
A dog is not a cat.
Therefore, a dog is not a mammal.)
Win.
How ’bout
*My pastor’s rules and standards are always right.
*That rule/standard is not one of my pastor’s rules or standards.
Therefore, that rule or standard is not right.
Yes, tick-v-g.
Actually the fallacy is “denying the antecedent.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denying_the_antecedent
Ok, here’s logic: Concerning tithing, my pastor used to say….
“The tithe is the Lords! If you don’t give it, He will take it! But remember! God loves a cheerful giver!”
This may not sound absurd or faulty to you, but, it drove me crazy.
You’re not the only one who’s driven crazy by it.
Yep, heard that one:
1. God loves a cheerful giver.
2. We should give willingly.
However,
3. If you are not tithing exactly 10% of your income plus an increasing “faith promise” each year, you must not be right with God.
It’s one of those things that make you go hmmmm….
I don’t get it…
My wife and I (actually, I take care of it, my wife doesn’t worry), put in an offering each week. It’s pretty much the same most weeks, unless I happen to miss it. It’s not 10%, in fact, I wouldn’t even know what 10% is.
I give as God hath prospered me. I’m actually really lazy with finances. I pay my bills on time, and there is always money there when I need it, so praise God for that, but I don’t worry about it. We give because we want to give. Also, we don’t even have an offering at church, there is a little offering box by the door, so it’s all very hush hush, and noones stands there watching you.
I know what you mean! I put in an offering each week, too, and I generally plan for it (by thinking on Saturday, “Hmm, I should stop by the bank and get some cash.”), but I don’t calculate percentages or make sure it is exactly 10%. I give willingly and abundantly – or at least as abundantly as a person with a part-time job can do, and I am pretty sure God is happier with my giving now than He was when I was forced to tithe in Fundyism. I hate to think what that money went to … 😯
How about all of us ex-fundies banding together and starting a class action suit against our former fundy churches demanding our “tithes” back.
Bingo! That’s the way I operate too. God’s not worried about “my” money because HE is the one who provides it. 1%?, 10%?, 3%? Who knows, I give whatever I give because I want too.
@Jenni – The real truth: “Because we’re building a new 3 million dollar fellowship hall to eat in and WE NEED THAT 10+%!!!”
That is so true, it’s scary. Right before a building project, I was asked why I wasn’t giving my tithe of 10% in checks, so they could keep track of how much I was giving. It complicates matters when the same people paying you are checking to see how much you tithe . . .
Could have responded by saying the tithe in the old testament never went to support the construction and maintenance of buildings, including the temple. It is very clear who tithed and what the tithe was used for in the OT…details many fundies don’t like to hear.
See, Stan, there you go bringing the Bible into it. Now, what does an IFB tithe have to do with actual BIBLE? (hee hee) 😉
It’s scary to know that a person could check both my paycheck and my tithe – those two numbers should be in no one’s hands but mine and God’s.
My husband has never seen and never known who gives what at our church. He doesn’t harass people over giving or not giving. He doesn’t know who the faithful tithers are, so he’s free to preach without fear of making so-and-so angry because then they might stop tithing. But then again, our church was unable to pay us a salary last month (even a reduced one).
I’m trying not to worry and to wait on the Lord and let Him provide for us. (I’m not doing really good at that yet.)
Remember he’s leading a “peculiar” people, so says the KJV.
There’s peculiar and then there’s f*@&!^g wierd.
Bingo!
That brings to mind things my pastor has spoken about regarding Christianity. It’s like some of these people in the IFB world think its a GOOD thing for Christians to be thought of as “weird.” (I’m slowly distancing myself from my IFB church; I’ve found another, far better, church to go to)
Argumentum ad A bad readingium of Colossians 2:8-ium:
Logic and philosophy are worldly things
I don’t participate in worldly things
– I don’t participate in logic and philosophy
– Wait, I just used logic to prove this
– I’m in an inescapable quagmire now.
– Quick! Think up a red herring
– Obama is the Antichrist
– Q.E.D.
Well said….Gives “we are fools for Christ” a whole new meaning.
Ipso facto, Eureka! Huzza!
LOL! That’s one of the funniest things I’ve read all year. 😆
Oh my gosh, I could write a novel on my opinion of IFB’s and their approach to politics. Their whole claim that Obama is the Antichrist has given me such a headache from my eyes rolling. Love him or hate him, Obama is NOT the Antichrist because there is about 5,735,226 things that he DOES NOT have in common with the Antichrist.
I LOVE how when an IFB doesn’t like a politician, he’s immediately a demon, but their Republican, regardless of what the guy’s really like and regardless of how much of a crook he is, he’s GOD’S CHOSEN.
True dat!
@ Natalie, I see that sentiment expressed here all the time, but that is absolutely not my experience in fundyland, and I was in it for the better part of forty years, out now for about two. I’m about 60 miles outside of D.C. so maybe its our close proximity that makes even the fundies around here realize that our hope is not in man, republican or dems.
I could walk you into at least 1 Baptist church in Herndon (PCC supporters) that think Dems are all closely related to, or possibly the Anti Christ himself.
Good gosh, I just realized that I used “their” for “they’re”. Yu can tel that I lurned anglis frum a Bible koledge.
{shrug} They’ve been laying that one on every Democratic president (and candidate) since Carter.
Well, it is God’s Own Party after all.
You are prophet and a philosopher in your own land. Sucks to be you.
In case any Fundies come by there is a 4 part series on Ars about logic/QED
Here is the link to the first and you can click your way from there.
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/guides/2010/11/getting-to-qed-part-1.ars
Ars Technica is very liberal in their politics, therefore any fundies will immediately discount any [correct] information on logic contained therein. That is, however, the least of our worries, because, as A.P. Sullivan just pointed out, logic is a worldly thing, and this will prevent most fundies from having anything to do with it. 😉
Pastor Logic: (non sequitur rex)
-David was a Shepherd
-David was anointed to be king
-Touch not the Lord’s anointed
-I am an undershepherd
-I am anointed
-Therefore I am King over my flock
(and you had better not come against the Lord’s anointed.)
We use the King James Bible because it was translated using a superior Greek text, the Textus Receptus.
We use the Textus Receptus because it was used to translate a superior text, the King James Bible.
This is the song that never ends…
Infinitum Circulus Argumentum
“Against which, no reason can penetrate.”
Kind of like this:
http://komplexify.com/math/images/CircularReasoning.gif
Excellent! 😎
Fundies never claim they are annointed. That’s like one step away from raising your hands to sing, or speaking in tongues (it’s all just as sinful) 😛
Way too charasmatic for them.
In conversations you will hear prachers evangelists and other IFB pulpiteers talk about the anointing when they are in the pulpit. Often they will call it “Liberty” but they fancy they are anionted and therefore more special to god than everyone else. IFB M-O-g’s only talk with and freely associate with other M-O-g’s… not with the subordinates or the common sheeple…because they just don’t understand the burden of being a pastor. And of course the more humble one appears to be behind the sacred desk the the more anointed he is.
We just left an IFB church and you just described the pastor right down to the feigned humility. So glad to be out, so glad to be out….
Yeah, the humble he *appears* behind the pulpit, the more obnoxious he is in private life.
Once again, I am in awe at how similar my story is to everyone elses here. Some days I read this blog and literally weep at the 20+ years of my life I gave to that man. I have had lunch more times in the past 6 months with the pastor of our new church more than in all 20+ years combined. He would never think to lower himself to be seen with one of the flock socially, but always feigned humility and the burden of being a pastor from behind the pulpit.
The real burden of the IFB pastor will be one day explaining just what his burden of being a pastor was and what the heck he was doing in the pulpit in the first place!
Our church’s desire is to live in community, getting to know one another and encouraging and helping one another. But I just read on another blog a question about whether pastors should “socialize” with everyone in the church, and a pastor was saying how his personality just didn’t mesh with everyone’s personality and how he needed his personal time. He came across very superior and stand-offish. You know, I don’t mesh with everyone in my church either, but I believe that is why God gives us love toward one another. BTW, I’m not against personal time, but I think more IFB pastors could benefit from just spending time with people. They probably feel like they need a break from people because they have a constant need to always be correcting other people. If you’re the guardian of all that’s holy in every social interaction, no wonder you want to run away and have some peace, but why not stop feeling the need to nitpick at every innocuous comment someone makes and just start LIVING and getting to know other people?
Fundy Preacher Boys are taught to be aloof. The principle is this: Familiarity Breeds Contempt. If your people see that you are human then you can no longer rule over them. I am not joking about this. They are taught to NOT allow any of the congregation into their life too far.
Most IFB M-O-g’s are taught to only associate with other pastors, evangelists and missionaries who are on perpetual deputation, who know the burden you share. Never let down your facade, you must stand in the pulpit as God’s representative. You must not let others get too close and see your warts because them you lose your authority over them.
I was politely told I could not participate in a conversation one time because I was not a preacher. (I was addicted to the kool-aid at the time so I just said, “Oh-kee-doe-kee”) Grrrrrr.
My pastor never invited us to dinner or lunch or anything. He had fellowship nights at his house, but they were awkward with the whole church. My wife and I did marriage counselling with him after a long day of work, for about an hour at a time, and we wouldn’t get home until 7 and then have to make tea, but he never thought of inviting us for tea.
I told him and he made up some excuse. There were so many things that led to me leaving that church. I know he thinks there was one thing (my struggle with a particular sin), and he probably thinks I backslid away, but I left because all his rules and inhospitality and his wifes treatment of my wife was unbearable.
Plus, his sermons were boring. They were all vaguely familiar – no real insight. It was like “read a text” and then reword it in many different ways over and over again.
Thanks all, I had the same fundy pastor for 15 years and he shunned me and my family numerous times. I helped him move, fix his house, had his family over, gave him gifts, etc. etc. It is comforting to know that others have experienced the joy of having a jerk as a pastor.
@PW – Saw the exact same thing with my last fundy pastor. He liked motorcycles, so we took about a 200 mile ride one day, and it just seemed like he kept his “real” self hidden from view, that’s got to be a rough life, course he’s doing it for the kingdom. I noticed at our annual picnic, he really didn’t mesh with “his” people very good either. What a shame, I certainly don’t see this type of demeanor of a pastor to the flock being represented in scriptures this way.
“I certainly don’t see this type of demeanor of a pastor to the flock being represented in scriptures this way.” — EXACTLY!!! It has been our desire to be faithful to SCRIPTURE that has led us out of fundamentalism. There are just so many things that are out of whack with what the Bible says, and this is another one of them!
As I’m listening to the song “Noel” right now, I’m reminded of what the great “dr.” Bob Jr. used to say… “Noel, Noel… I hate that song. It makes me think of No Hell, No Hell, and that is what the heathen say! They say there’s no hell!”
Are you serious? Wow… that’s just pathetic
no flippin way…….what a jackass.
I don’t remember hearing that one, but she’s not kidding. Jr was a jerk.
Argh, don’t get me started on Jr. The man had no sense of humor, and apparently no guts to confront me on something minor, either.
I was making good-natured fun of wearing Sunday hats, and he acted like it was no big deal to my face. He ran to the mission team leader, who chewed me out instead. By that time, I knew the ML hated me, so I didn’t care anymore what he said. But as far as Jr. goes? Gutless wonder, plain and simple. 🙄
To the innocent, everything is good.
To the corrupted, everything is evil.
And THAT’S something that bugged me right away about my fundy U: I felt they damaged my innocence by turning innocuous things into “sins.” Having to cut up a banana instead of eating it whole? Not being allowed to share a book between us? Not being allowed to walk on a sidewalk next to each other? Those rules wouldn’t stop people who really wanted to sin and they only frustrated the innocent.
I’ve become convinced that the fastest way to give a person a dirty mind is to let them live under some Fundyland rules for a while. Perverts around every corner or something.
@LM- agreed! I know of a couple guys at my IFB church who are some of the most vulgar people I’ve encountered.
I just saw your mention of the rules…cut up a banana!? I’m dumbfounded. Wowzers.
Are you freakin’ serious? This has temporarily knocked all the snark out of me.
Recently a very dear and close friend of mine has been struggling. The fundy responses he has been getting:
-You’re not saved in the first place (trust me, he is)
-You are seeking attention and are not really struggling spiritually (And how would the fundy know when someone really is struggling?)
-You are seeking attention and are not really struggling physically (um…that handicap he has isn’t a joke, and neither were those trips to the emergency room)
-You deserve nothing and need to stop thinking only about yourself (and what does the fundy deserve? The exact same thing.)
-You need to stop giving your testimony and stop witnessing because you are doing it to seek attention. (Has it ever occurred to him that my friend’s testimony glorifies God [oh, and was only used ONCE when witnessing!])
-You have decided to be a homosexual (doesn’t make sense to me either)
-Why don’t you try to kill yourself again and maybe this time it will work. (….I control myself and say “grrrrrrrr”)
Thankfully, despite all this, God has been working in my friend and he is healing and growing in God. He has grown so much and I am so thankful he is still here and improving spiritually. I am glad that God is more powerful than words, no matter how harsh.
{jawdrop} I simply can not understand that level of cruelty. That is just awful!
I’m really sorry your friend is going through this. I hope he can get away from the people who say such destructive things. Does he believe what these fundamentalists are saying?
No, thankfully he does not. He knows better 🙂
I mean he knows not to believe what they said to him. He can avoid them and does.
You know, since Fundies believe homosexuality is a *choice*, have your friend ask the next antagonist when THEY *chose* NOT to be gay!? (I’ll bet it was recent!)That would either shut’em up or piss’em off further.
Thousands have been helped to “come out” of the homosexual lifestyle, so if its not a choice are these thousands of folks lying?
Homosexuality is a choice the same as heterosexuality.
Desire and behaviour.
One does not commit sin with either until acted upon inwardly (“adultery int he ehart”) or worse, outwardly.
To try and excuse behaviour/desire by saying they are “born that way” is entirely opposite to scripture. We are all born sinners.
Sin is sin, regardless of disposition.
So Salty, did you choose your sexuality? Do you wake up some days and think, I’m going to choose to be hetereosexual today? The honest answer is no, you don’t choose it. You were born that way.
I know that I am attracted to women. I don’t choose that, I just am.
Here’s a question, that I am sure you should be able to answer since you know everyone’s inner desires……if someone had the ability to choose their sexual preference, why would they choose a preference that would present them with nothing but ridicule, prejudice and bigotry from narrow minded people?
Coming out (meaning, going public about your sexuality) and coming to the personal realization that a person is gay doesn’t mean that they just CHOSE to be gay one day. From how its been explained to me from some of my gay friends, some struggle for years knowing that they don’t fit in with normal society. It takes a lot of courage to come to the realization of their real self. Some have more supportive families and they feel more comfortable going public. But, they’re gay regardless and were meant to be that way.
Society (church included) is a powerful thing and it has its strict rules that are dictated by the box in the living room, the internet, and the pulpit. But the reality is, not everyone fits into society’s rules. And, those that are not, are shamed, bullied, put down, and hidden away.
Sad.
Scorpio/Natalie – I see neither of you touched my question about the thousands that have been helped out of the homosexual lifestyle and are now living “normal” productive, God-honoring lives. So again my question to both of you, are the folks that actively lived and pursued the homosexual lifestyle for years and then God set them free from that lifestyle now “lying” about their pasts? Were they deceived into the homosexual lifestyle and then deceived back out of it?
Natalie your response was rather telling when you said that they “don’t fit in with (normal)society,” so you are at least admitting that homosexuality is abnormal. You also had another telling comment “It takes alot of courage to come to the realization of their real selves” That is the huge problem we all face straight, homosexual or other. The bible tells us to “deny” ourselves and take up the cross and follow Him (Jesus). Christianity is not at all about “ourselves” (we) are the problem! The bible says our hearts are despertely wicked! This goes waaay beyond homosexuality, this is a critical problem with all of mankind “getting in touch with ourselves” Within me there is no good thing, however through Christ I can do all things. We need to get “ourselves” out of the way, and allow God to work through us.
I could babble about this all day, but this is a topic that there is very little gray about as to how God looks at the sin of homosexuality. Please read Romans 1, I will just highlight some of the verses, these verses are all talking about those that are in the homosexual lifestyle. v-21 their foolish hearts were darkened v-22 they claimed to be wise but became fools v- 23 they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images v-24 God gives them over to sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another v-25 exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rther than the Creator v-26 God gave them over to shameful lusts. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. v-27 in the same way men abandoned natural relations with women, men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion v-28 God gives them over to a depraved mind v-29 they became filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy,murder, strife, deceit and malice v-30 they invent ways of doing evil v-32 although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
I am a man that has done some terrible things in my past, (I have done things so awful that will never be given as a testimony, I will take them with me to the grave, praise God though, they are covered by the blood) these comments are not written to hurt anybody, I don’t have a thing against homosexuals (but by the Grace of God go I) But anyone that knows our God and allows and even supports this sin or any other sin is doing the sinner no favors. It may sound fundy but I submit these comments in love.
I agree with you, Greg. I say this with an aching heart not with superiority or hatred, but I can’t get around Scripture.
I make a choice every day to not act on the same-sex desires I experience.
I chose that because I want my life to tell God’s story.
@Scorpio,
Ian and Greg said it for me really.
We are ALL “born that way” i.e. SINNERS.
Some have a propensity–whether it is biologocally genetic or as a result of abuse, or being raised by the opposite sex and having gender confuion or WHATEVER…but that is no excuse.
A man that is attracted to women and rapes them has no excuse…neither is the man who is attracted to women and is a serial fornicator.
All are sin.
I have gay family members and straight family members who are living sexually sinful lifestyles.
If it were a matter of being merely “born that way” it would be a birth defect, but as it is…all men and women and those who are confused as to which they are, MUST be “Born again” according to the word of God.
@Greg – Wow, you said a lot to make your point, and I STILL don’t agree, and I’m guessing you will say that I’m denying the Bible. No, I just don’t think you’re interpreting it properly, especially about following Jesus.
I don’t know the hearts of those who have “got right with God”, so I’m not going to judge what’s going on there. That’s not my place. Just like how even though I don’t fully understand a homosexual’s mind/heart, I’m not going to judge it either. I’m just going on what they’ve told me. I don’t know any former homosexual who “got right with God”.
But, all that you’ve said is nothing that I haven’t heard in my fundy church growing up, school, and college.
You can believe that you’re right, that’s fine. I just don’t agree with you.
@Greg – And, I also don’t believe that you’re saying your comments in love. They have self-righteousness all over them, regardless of your closing statement.
I wonder if you’d actually say those things to the face of a homosexual.
Personally, I think you could use a big dose of compassion.
Natalie, I’m with you. I’m smelling something here.
@Scorpio – For a minute there, I felt like I was back at college. *shivers*
Natalie – that is your “fundar” (fundy radar) going off. Certain phrases and styles of writing will trigger it.
As a straight guy, God has given me scripture to identify sin in *my* life. Fundies love to say they love the sinner but hate the sin, God tells us to love people and let Him deal with their sin. I knwo the forgive/retains sins thing is gonna get brought up, and I don’t have it in front of me, but I know how it worked for the debtor forgiven his debt that tried to have his debtor imprisoned: not well.
Am thrilled with Illinois for passing civil unions. You should see the angy fundy screeds, and prayers being threatened on facebook updates from rural news orgs here!
@Greg – Yes, they are lying. Exodus Intl. (and NARTH) are just another rotten poultice of condemnation, shame, and guilt plastered over wounded hearts. Eventually these “ex-gay” people will either accept their natural orientation or sink into depression and misery – or just kill themselves, whether overtly or through an addiction.
I want to hear what JESUS said about homosexuality. Once I learned the story of how our current canon came to be, the words and actions of Jesus became my only guide to life. If Moses, Paul, or Peter say something that is inconsistent with the example of Jesus, I’m going with Jesus.
I feel I need to clarify. I was not looking for an argument about pro/against homosexuality. The weird thing about the situation is that my friend was called a homosexual when he has no inclination in that direction whatsoever. I realize I forgot to mention that and therefore part of the point was missed.
People assume that since he is artistic and doesn’t fit into their mold he is automatically gay and they torment him for being a homosexual when he isn’t.
I will not state my personal views on what the Bible states about homosexuality because I did not post my original post intending to start a flame war and I do not intend to continue the debate. Please keep your arguments logical and avoid using dishonest tactics (i.e. Straw man, Ad Hominem,…et cetera) when discussing things that you feel strongly about.
It’s terrible that people make assumptions and accusations, instead of getting to know someone and care about them. Bullying, badgering, labeling, and harassing are NO WAY to help someone who is hurting, alone, confused, or different. When we paint people into boxes and reject them and their gifts (instead of trying to encourage them), we may be forcing their hand, pushing them into rejecting God or Christianity. Musical and artistic people should be celebrated; you can do “feminine” things and not be homosexual, but if people reject you, maybe you’ll have no one to turn to BUT the very people the accusers have been saying you are.
Thank you, Pastor’s Wife. Part of what has been unreal about this is how God has been working in him. When so many of his friends left (or were forced to leave even though they didn’t want to) instead of becoming weak and discouraged, he has grown in a way I never saw coming. My friend is still being beaten down but he is all right and I am seeing God work and grow in him which is just amazing. 😀
And this is why the church’s attitude towards homosexuals and other gender variant people has to change. If you’re gay (or assumed to be gay) you get treated like a leper. And prayed for in a passive aggressive sort of way.
I got my response to these comments in the wrong spot supposed to have been here, but scroll on down and you’ll find it.
My path out of fundyland started by me asking questions and not getting logical answers.
As a teenager, I was told I shouldn’t wear pants because of a verse in Deuteronomy. I asked if that meant we should also have animal sacrifices, only to be told that my question was the result of a heart that wasn’t right with God.
Typical response. Honestly, I think it would have been easier for them to just have a digital recorder in their pocket that had prerecorded BS responses that they can just hit a button and it gives the appropriate response.
Typical way of deflecting. Make you look like the bad person because they don’t have a valid response to your inquiry.
“It sounds like you have a problem with authority.” A line I heard constantly at BJU.
The classic answer is, “I have a problem with illegitimate authorities.”
I can’t imagine that would go over well (and if it doesn’t, bite back at them with “it sounds like you have a pride problem”).
Lol, at HAC I don’t think that would’ve gotten me anywhere. At least, not anywhere pleasant.
the Bible says, “obey those in authority over you.” We are your authority. Therefore, if you don’t do what we say and do it cheerfully, you are in effect disobeying God Himself. The Bible says, “If I regard iniquity in my heart the Lord will not hear me.” If you are not obeying your God-given authority, God will not hear your prayers. Someday you will be praying over your sick child, and God will not hear you, because there was an offense against BJU that you never confessed to Jim Berg. (I am not exaggerating. This was a sermon that turned my life upside down).
Jenn, that sort of flawed teaching was prevalent on many fundy campuses. I encountered it many times while at HAC. I’m still trying to get over it now that I’m out of fundyland.
my friends outside of BJU would ask me how the school could possibly enforce so many rules. How could they know everything you’re doing? I would tell my friends, you really have no idea. No idea.
Just another brick in the wall. “We don’t need no education!”
I don’t think it’s a fallacy to say that most all of Fundamentalism is one giant non sequitur!
So, recently on a well-established “fundy” forum (that I sometimes read for kicks). . .A “discussion” took place about some particular changes being made by a Fundy U.
One response in particular struck me: “Fundy Pastors cannot continue to send their young people to this Fundy U if it continues to make these types of changes/compromises.”
Okay, first, logically, is the Pastor sending the young person to college??? Since when is he paying the bills? I suppose he somehow mysteriously “knows” that these young people have received “THE CALL” to ministry. Is he going to bear responsibility when the young person graduates from said Fundy U and can’t get a “real” job? (Okay, okay, I know he is the MOG and is supposed to make ALL decisions for everyone, even down to what college an 18-year-old attends.)
Fundy Pastors don’t literally send students to a college but Fundy colleges heavily rely on years of campaigning done by sympathetic pastors who usually have their favorites that they endorse. If you attend a school like BJU for example you’ll find a huge number of students who come from a particular church or Christian school. Loosing those key recruiters hurts.
As a side note, most churches and schools take great exception to being called a “BJU School” or “BJU Church”….especially here in Greenville. But espeically here in town the relationship is so symbiotic that if either group gets mad with the other they can have a great impact of attendance and through the fellowship/separation effect great ripples.
I don’t even have to go over to that forum to know that it HAS to be my old alma mater, since the church is all but southern baptist now.
And, I’m one of those that was “sent”. Shoot, my society (PCC knows them as “collegians”, I believe) had a LONG history of members from my church. In fact, when I got to college, I was pretty much guaranteed a spot in the society, because I came from that church. The society colors were the same as my high school’s.
The homeopathic method: you take a small amount of working material and dissolve it in a big bottle of water. When the moon is right, you shake it and shake it and shake it. Then you take a small amount of the resulting solution and dissolve it in a big bottle of water. When the moon is right, you shake it and shake it and shake it. Then you take a small amount of the resulting solution and dissolve it in a big bottle of water. When the moon is right, you shake it and shake it and shake it. Then you take a small amount of the resulting solution and dissolve it in a big bottle of water. When the moon is right, you shake it and shake it and shake it. Then you take a small amount of the resulting solution and dissolve it in a big bottle of water. When the moon is right, you shake it and shake it and shake it. Then you take a small amount of the resulting solution and dissolve it in a big bottle of water. When the moon is right, you shake it and shake it and shake it. Then you take a small amount of the resulting solution and dissolve it in a big bottle of water. At the end of the process you convince sufficient people that the effective power of the original working material has somehow been transferred to the tincture you have thus created. And you sell it to them for great profit.
In this case it was: a small amount of the Bible says… added to gallons of conjecture and tradition. Mightily shaken. Small part of which was added to more conjecture and tradition. Mightly shaken. Etc. From which indisputably follows that what happens in fundy worship is firmly Biblically based. Except for those bits which Man-O-Gid would like to reform further.
Reading this post reminded me of the misbegotten mantra that things started going to hell in a hand basket when prayer was removed from the public schools. Well, I finished high school in 1961 and it wasn’t until a couple years later that the Supreme Court ruled in the O’hair case. Yet, it was my generation (which grew up saying the Lord’s Prayer every morning) that rebelled against those who sent young men to die in Vietnam. Maybe we should have removed prayer years earlier when those who directed this awful tragedy were being educated.
In their heart of hearts they would say that things started getting worse when desegregation was enforced.
IDK, most fundies I know are so intentionally/blissfully unaware of the inate nature of their own sexual desire it almost makes you jealous of living life so self unaware. Goes a long way to justifying their homophobic anger. I genuinely believe there’s a lot of fundies that would gladly eithe make up a direct answer, or even more classic fundy style give a smart a programmed response that doesn’t mean anything, but they think it does.
Reply fail. That was to smith above re date you chose to be straight.
I agree totally. The longer you live, the more things become a mystery rather than a know-it-all flippant answer.
@Smith, true.
The person with the flippant answer reveals himself as arrogant, shallow, and usually unloving. The longer you live, you should be growing more humble and more gentle, more in awe of Christ.
Fundie logic was once put into a song “God said it, I believe it and the settles it for me”
My father in-law, an Assemblies of God pastor, tried to use logic in his sermon this past Sunday to say that stealing even a little bit of money is a sin, therefore drinking even a little bit of alcohol is also a sin. He said this as if it made some sort of logical sense in his mind. And of course he got some “amens” for saying it.
Funny, I don’t see the bit about drinking alcohol as being a sin in the Ten Commandments. Or in any of the laws set forth in Deuteronomy or Leviticus. The best I can come up with is the admonishment in Proverbs to not get drunk on TOO MUCH wine, but it never says, “Don’t drink ANY wine.” Maybe my father in-law has a different bible than I do, and his actually says that drinking any amount of alcohol is a sin.
It’s sad – people really DO think that’s logical. The problem is, as you said, that it DOESN’T line up with what the Bible actually says. I think it undermines the Scripture when preachers twist the Bible into supporting something it DOESN’T (or in this case, actually says the opposite – the Bible is clear that drinking a little wine is fine.)
Proverbs 31:6 and 7 are interesting verses to drop into this situation (right before the wife of noble character). I pointed these out once to a Pentecostal friend and his response was that as they were the sayings of King Lemuel, perhaps they didn’t have the same authority as the rest of the Bible.
These people are supposedly so concerned with defending the inerrancy of Scripture, but let clear Scripture contradict one of their sacred cows, they’re quick to repudiate – what? their personal opinion? NO!!! They’ll repudiate the Scripture!!!! HOW, HOW, HOW can they see themselves as the last surviving holdouts defending the Bible against unbelievers when they themselves refuse to accept ALL the Bible says? It’s dishonest and drives me crazy.
(BTW, I believe in the inerrancy of Scripture and don’t drink, if anyone was wondering.)
So by saying that this doesn’t have the same authority as everything else in the Bible, that’s like he’s saying that the Bible isn’t completely infallible and inerrant.
That’s what it seems like to me. There’s no reason not to accept that part of Proverbs the same way we accept any other part of Proverbs. King Lemuel’s just an excuse. After all, several of the Psalms were written by some kind of Chief Songleader. Does that mean those psalms are invalid? I think not.
To be fair he was a decent sort of bloke and not one of the ranting MOG types. I just think I caught him on the hop. But it’s still an interesting response and, inconsistent, as you say.
For the record I drink alcohol now and then but have every respect for those who choose not to.
You have to remember the Temperance movement married itself to Americanized Christianity starting with Charles Finney. The movement became so intertwined with Christiaity that Billy Sunday, Jones Sr., and the old timers built their ministry empires on “preachin’ agin’ demon alcohol!” They realized that they could externalize sin and make it something they could rally people to stand up against. Sin is so much easier to deal with when it is externalized. After awhile it became essential doctrine, and especially here in the south it was incorporated into Church Covenants, and by-laws. By then the template was forged and the army was set in motion and the Generals led theor troops, telling them what they should think about virtually all issues and the commanders became emperors and Kingdoms were formed. The Banner was raised and the Army of God marched with the Christian Flag as their standard. The battle was hot but they won when Prohibition was passed… or so they thought.
Here are three videos that show the externalization of sin (well maybe not the Black Knight but it seems Billy may have inspired the Black Knights additude at least)
http://persifler.wordpress.com/2010/05/02/your-favorite-fighting-fundy-as-the-black-knight/
proofread, proofread, proofread george!
Christiaity = Christianity
theor= their
Another fundy hot-button, Don’s answer above is right on, “externalize that sin” and we can really go after it, funny though Jesus continously tells us how he is much more concerned with what’s on the “inside” than the outside. Jesus first miracle is to turn the water into wine at the wedding, and if you read the entire story in the scriptures, the context is very clear that this is not grape juice.
The bible is actually quite clear about allowing folks to partake of the fruit of the vine, and it is also very clear that we should not become drunk from that wine.
I also don’t drink and January 24, 2011 I am celebrating 30 years of sobriety! All glory to God!!
There are some Southern Baptists that need to actually study the Bible on this issue… instead they want to pass resolutions about it 🙄 http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=34136
Oy!
AFAIC, the SBC has turned into nothing more than IFB-lite. Rule upon rule…
Greg, congratulations on the 30 years 🙂 Way to go.
Zen hugs and nice going! I’m proud of you.
Thank you and thank God.
I was able to do it w/out AA, although I know that organization helps alot of folks.
I’ll make this brief. I was drunk and in a bar on Jan 3, 1981 and got shot in the head, I obviously lived, but that was the catalyst to start me thinking about my life and some of my life choices. A doctor successfully removed the bullet and a plastic surgeon made me pretty again, you would realize how funny that was if you could see me! Anyway long about the 24th of January I decided I would try and clean up my act, btw I was taking most any drugs I could get my hands on, PCP,LSD and marijuana were my favorites. By the grace and goodness of God Almighty I was able to quit it all. I am convinced that God allowed that bullet to hit me and not kill me (whom the Lord loves them he also chastens) I said I was gonna make this brief didn’t I.
Praise God for His mercies are new every morning. He is faithful!
Lol. My little bit of wine is healthier than the diets many fundies follow. Though while at HAC, I did see more emphasis on not filling your body with junk than at most fundy places. I’ll give them credit for that.
The analogy is faulty. Stealing money is still stealing regardless of the amount. Intoxication is directly related to the amount consumed.
Natalie – Don’t like the message just kill the messenger, right. If the shoe fits wear it. God’s Word say homosexuals are God-haters, but I’m self righeous because I have pointed that out. The most absolute loving and *compassionate* thing anyone can do for someone caught in this sin or any other sin is to give them the precious, life-giving word of God. You act as though I am some sort of wild-eyed fundamentalist running around screaming about gays taking over the world, and nothing could be further from the truth, I too have friends and family members who are gay, I also have friends and family members who are living in heterosexual relationships that are wrong, but we weren’t discussing those at the time, but because you are all in to supporting homosexuality you try to assasinate my character and testimony, and I really don’t appreciate it. And guess what? Most of the rational folks that comment here see right through you. Remember the verses about the Word being like a sword, sometimes it hurts. You may have to have harmful surgery to remove a cancer, and suffer with the results of that surgery to live a long healthy life. I seriously hope that your homosexual friends receive the life-giving words of the Lord Jesus and His gospel, but it doesn’t appear that they are going to here it from you anytime soon.
@Faith – You are on very shaky ground picking and choosing which words of God you decide to follow. Warning/Sarcasm following – Would you please share with the readership of SFL your brilliant understand of “How our canon came to be” oh, and while you are at it please share your great knowledge and insight about how and where Moses, Peter or Paul ever said anything that was “inconsistent” with the teachings of Jesus. (end of sarcasm)
Jesus is the Word, all of the Word all day long and for eternity. Forever His Word is settled in Heaven. His word is consistent from Genesis to Revelation. The Word became flesh (Jesus) and lived among us.
I have said this many times it doesn’t matter what I think or say, what matters is what thus saith the Lord, so I’ll close these comments with His words.
2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage – with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
“Most of the rational folks that comment here see right through you.” WRONG!
Natalie’s comments are quite rational. She is just another person who has found SFL as a place to express her thoughts and feelings on fundyland. Many people find SFL therapeutic. And in the process heal through humor and satire.
Not everyone is going to agree on every post and certainly not on every comment. But that doesn’t mean any of us want to get “lectured at” or have bible verses thrown at us with someone’s elses personal interpretation just becasue we don’t agree.
Natalie is a relative newcomer here at SFL and her posts are honest, insightful and humorous. But because she disagreed with you and your interpretation of things, you blast away with bible verses and claims of not being self-righteous. Very similiar to what many of us heard from fundy pulpits. If we wanted that kind of interaction we would not be on SFL, we would be in “our place, every time the doors are open”.
Scorpio – Mellow out alittle bit. I’m just someone that has also found SFL and I am also trying to express my thoughts and feelings. I also don’t want to be lectured at or have someone else’s personal interpretation of the bible foisted upon me. I have also tried to keep my posts honest, insightful, humorous and loving.
So I guess we are basically in agreement.
Scorpio, thank you. That was very sweet.
Greg, I’m not sure exactly what someone is supposed to see if they’re looking right through me. I’m not really sure what you meant by that. I’m just a person who came to a site because it was interesting.
I still don’t agree with you about your beliefs. And, frankly, I don’t know why that bothers you so much.
Greg, lets just hope that you don’t have the pleasure of me pulling you over…then again, I’m not sure I have enough tickets for you.
Is crime fighter aka “Hot Fuzz”?
Natalie – This is really weird. I was having nearly the exact same thoughts as you. I was wondering why my beliefs bother you so much.
You said that you don’t agree with my interpretation of the bible, that is so ironic, I also don’t agree with your interpretation of the bible, and almost all that you have said is nothing that I haven’t heard on Oprah or other politically correct media.
Now you have a couple of people rushing to your rescue and yet I haven’t called you a liar, or self righteous or lacking in compassion as you have called me.
It seems some people think their opinions are more important than other peoples opinion.
I have noticed this over and over, the folks that yell the loudest about tolerance are usually the most intolerant people there are.
re: Greg’s post above this one:
http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2010/04/blaming-the-victim/
I never called you a liar, Greg.
CfexF – Why would you want to write me tickets? I have disgreed with her very politely and in a christian manner, I really can’t say the same for her responses to me.
“I have noticed this over and over, the folks that yell the loudest about tolerance are usually the most intolerant people there are.”
You are absolutely right.
Sure, but it’s gotta be the super short extra condensed version. Men (not God) decided what writings would be considered scripture. And they didn’t all agree, and still don’t to this day.
Moses is easy (ignoring the fact that he didn’t really write Leviticus), Jesus broke those laws left and right. Paul’s attitude towards women is completely inconsistent with the example of Jesus. Try to reconcile the story of the woman at the well, or Mary Magdalene being the one to announce Jesus’ resurrection to the disciples with the writings of Paul concerning the role of women in the church. I’m with Jesus, you can follow Paul if you want to.
Oh, and Paul wrote the epistles to Timothy, not Jesus.
Jesus is the Word, and Jesus is Truth and without error. Writings that men say are scripture have flaws and inconsistencies. I try to follow the Word.
Faith – I’m nearly speechless (note nearly) You have consumed some very strong Kool-Aid.
Your knowledge of the bible and translations and its transmission down through history is a flat zero. I don’t know where to begin, because not only are you completely lost on the subject but it appears you want to stay that way. An analogy may be in order here – its easier for me to teach someone to ride a horse that has never ridden one than to teach someone that has learned to ride the wrong way. Applying this analogy to you, not only have you learned to ride the wrong way, you don’t even know what a horse looks like.
I am seriously wondering, and you don’t have to answer this if you don’t want to (obviously) Why bother, I mean why fool with anything at all in the scriptures? If I felt the way you do about the bible I would just toss the whole thing.
I’ll close with scripture, but in your case it probably won’t help. Romans 1:22 “Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools.”
I love it when you talk down to me, Greg.
The Bible is the story of God’s love for humankind. Why would I want to throw that away? It’s also the only place to learn about Jesus, and it is through the character of Jesus (revealed through his words and actions as recorded in the Bible) that I interpret the rest of the Bible.
I try to be like Jesus, in every situation I try to model my behavior after his behavior. (Of course I fail an awful lot.) Jesus tells us to internalize the big principles (Love God, love others, love yourself) and to apply those principles in our lives. You seem more interested in knowing all the rules in The Book and demanding that everyone follow them.
Natalie – “I also don’t believe you are saying your comments in love”
If that’s not calling me a liar, then I don’t know what a lie is.
Just because I didn’t believe ONE thing you say, doesn’t mean I think you lie in general, and therefore, don’t believe you are a liar.
Faith – I really don’t understand you at all. Your last two comments are almost diametrically opposed to one another. After I read your last comment I almost felt ashamed of myself, my gracious, I thought, what did I do to this poor person.
It appears you want to have your cake and eat it too. You said “Men, not God determined what writings would be considered scripture” If that were the case I would have nothing to do with it either. I know all the crazy literature out there that supports some of what you are driving at, I have read and studied much of it, you can’t stop there. I’m not one to simply read and study things that support my beliefs, I think its good to study the “other” side. Once you get a firm grasp on the topic, then you can spot problems. A for instance, I had been debating/arguing with a guy about bible translations for several weeks. On one of his comments he brought up Dean Burgon as an ally to his KJV cause, well point of fact Dean Burgon is a big supporter of the KJV and the manuscripts that back that translation but he wasn’t a KJV fanatic like the guy I was debating, but because I was familiar with both sides of the issue, and had read Burgon, I knew that he had suggested that in the gospel of Matthew alone he had suggested 120 changes. That fact didn’t make my debating buddy very happy.
“The bible is the story of God’s love for mankind.” How do you know? Men determined what writings would be considered scripture.
“It’s the only place to learn about Jesus.” How do you know? The Jesus I know quoted the OT all the time, we can’t trust those can we? Men decided what would be in there.
Are you like Jesus when it comes to believing in the OT?
Let’s see what Jesus has to say about that ol “pesky” law stuff.
Matthew 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Am I just “quoting” rules to you now. Btw I’m not demanding anyone follow anything. I am just trying to point folks to the Saviour, when I see completely wrong information about the precious Word of God displayed here or anywhere I just don’t sit still and take it.
You say you want to be like Jesus and to model your behaviour after His, please study what He did and said, I’m sorry I know this is offensive, it is obvious you haven’t.
I am inclined to disagree with you. Not based on the content of what you are saying but rather your delivery. I just have an intense need to disagree for spite alone. Its this same inkling that made me a “rebel” in fundy high school and its also doing a fine job of keeping me from going to church at all anymore. Not saying that you need to change how you say it. Perhaps the problem is more with my reception of it all. My point is, that …well, iits a big turn off. And to quote the movie MASH, “that is all.”
CfexF – Very fair and honest response, thanks.
crime fighting ex-fundy – A fair and honest respone. Tks.
So Greg, do you follow the whole of the law? Or do you believe that the work of Jesus fulfilled the law and that we now live under grace? You are so stuck on “Until heaven and earth disappear” that you ignore “until everything is completed.” Why do you think Jesus said “It is finished.”?
Like you said, can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Faith – Some good questions, and I truly hope you are sincere in wanting to know the answers.
No, I don’t follow the whole law I am unable to, just as Jesus and the whole new testament teaches.
You must understand some OT, so hold on and I’m gonna shorthand this.
You have moral law and ceremonial law. Remember that all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and then written down by men, however the “Law” was written by the very finger of God on tables of stone, isn’t that cool? God’s very finger wrote those laws, which of course we refer to as the 10 commandments. This is (Moral Law) and is what we try to live by everyday, and I fail miserably at times. Ok next.
Ceremonial law – These laws were added because of our transgression of the moral law. It consists of the ordinances, ceremonies and sacrifice in the sanctuary system that pointed to the “future” redemption in Jesus – for instance, in celebrating Passover God gave specific instructions to the Jewish people to represent Christ. Ex. 34:25,26 “Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Feast remain until morning. Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the to the house of the Lord your God.” I am amazed at His provision for us, this was written hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus, I praise Him today! I hope you are beginning to see why I get alittle excited when folks mishandle God’s Word, you cannot begin to comprehend Jesus and His ministry w/out knowing the OT.
Now let’s watch what happens as this comes into the new testament. 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 “Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast – as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast,the bread of sincerity and truth.
So we are no longer under the “ceremonial law” however we are definitely under the “moral law” We know we won’t live up to it, no matter how hard we try, but I know you will appreciate this as I do. When questioned about what was the greatest commandment in the Law. Jesus said, Matthew 22:37-40 “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” How about Jesus’ shorthand!
The above completely answers why Jesus said “it is finished”
We serve a risen Saviour, I love Him today, I praise Him today, I apologize for my sarcasm, I have alot of zeal for the message of our Lord to mankind, as contained in the scriptures, and I have a hard time controlling my temper, yes got one of those too, when I feel this precious Word is being misrepresented.
How many times was Jesus accused of breaking #4? I haven’t bothered to go through and count, but it’s a lot. And if you are going to say that we are only living under moral law as contained in the Decalogue, then where do you get off condemning homosexuality?
You might have missed this before, but when you 2 Tim. 3:16’d me the last time I reminded you that Paul was talking about the Septuagint, which was the accepted canon of his time. Despite writing 2 Tim. 3:16, Paul did not mechanically follow everything his canon said. Instead, he interpreted the meaning of scripture according to his understanding (sometimes inspired by the Holy Spirit) of the teaching and example of Jesus. I am only doing with the canon of today what my brother Paul did with the canon of his day: using my understanding of Jesus to interpret the scripture.
Mt. 22:37-40 was what I was paraphrasing two comments ago here: http://www.stufffundieslike.com/2010/11/logic/comment-page-1/#comment-32349
I fail to see how that is shorthand for “Follow the Law.” It’s a summation of the intent of the Law, Jesus gives us the principles we should use to decide how to respond to any given situation. We are no longer allowed to simply look up the rules in The Book. It’s more challenging than that, instead we are called to think about how to best apply the principles Jesus gave us.
And you are still talking down to me, in the same post where you apologize for being sarcastic. “You must understand some OT.” Really? 🙄 Romans 1:22 me one more time, I love it!
When the church starts preaching fire and brimstone about gay bashing, then I will believe that it loves the sinner but not the sin.
How many times was Jesus accused of breaking #4? I haven’t bothered to go through and count, but it’s a lot. And if you are going to say that we are only living under moral law as contained in the Decalogue, then where do you get off condemning homosexuality?
You might have missed this before, but when you 2 Tim. 3:16’d me the last time I reminded you that Paul was talking about the Septuagint, which was the accepted canon of his time. Despite writing 2 Tim. 3:16, Paul did not mechanically follow everything his canon said. Instead, he interpreted the meaning of scripture according to his understanding (sometimes inspired by the Holy Spirit) of the teaching and example of Jesus. I am only doing with the canon of today what my brother Paul did with the canon of his day: using my understanding of Jesus to interpret the scripture.
Mt. 22:37-40 was what I was paraphrasing two comments ago. I fail to see how that is shorthand for “Follow the Law.” It’s a summation of the intent of the Law, Jesus gives us the principles we should use to decide how to respond to any given situation. We are no longer allowed to simply look up the rules in The Book. It’s more challenging than that, instead we are called to think about how to best apply the principles Jesus gave us.
And you are still talking down to me, in the same post where you apologize for being sarcastic. “You must understand some OT.” Really? 🙄 Romans 1:22 me one more time, I love it!
Faith – I was afraid that you were going to do exactly as you did and take my very decent exegesis of some fairly in depth scripture and just try and twist it to suit your purpose. I tried to keep it simple because of your obvious lack of understanding of scripture. (yes I talk down to you, don’t know how else to communicate to you, and then you do the exact same thing to me, so we’re even, ok)
Again you don’t know what you are talking about. You have spoken in 2 of your comments about the Septuagint, from the way you speak about it, I know you have no idea what the Setuagint is. How is it relevant that “Paul was talking about the Septuagint, which was the accepted canon of his time” (alright, so what?) You throw that out there as though it means something, it means nothing, it has nothing to do with anything we are discussing. The Septuagint is simply the Koine Greek version of the Hebrew bible. It is very ancient, in fact some think it may be one of the oldest of several ancient translations of the Hebrew bible into Greek. Why don’t you find another word related to bible translation and start arbitrarily throwing it into the conversation as though it applies to something we are discussing. Hey I know one “Codex Vaticanus” Ohhhh – That will really make me sound intelligent and someone may think I know something about ancient manuscripts. Reminds me of Will Ferrell in Elf when he finds a word he likes and exclaims “Oh thats fun to say.
If you want to discuss topics such as these you simply need to educate yourself some. As for me I am completely done “casting my pearls before the swine.”
The fact that 2 Tim. 3:16 refers to the Septuagint is relevant because Paul did not consider what he and the other authors of the New Testament were writing to be scripture. So using 2 Tim. 3:16 to support a position that everything in the Bible is the literal word of God is ludicrous. According to 2 Tim. 3:16, the Old Testament including the Apocrypha (which you most likely do not regard as scripture) is the word of God. Do you see my point now?
I am not a person who uses big words to sound smart, I am a person who tries to pick the right word. “Septuagint” is a lot faster to type than “the Old Testament plus the Apocrypha.” And it’s the right word.
Thanks for calling me a pig, too.
Faith,
I just want to tell you that I’m very impressed with how you’ve handled yourself in spite of the outright bigotry you’ve faced here. You are not a swine; you are a person, and for someone to twist Jesus’ words to promote his or her own agenda is inexcusable. Jesus didn’t call out the Roman soldiers or the prostitutes. He called out the religious leaders who insisted that because the Bible says something, it is to be taken literally and therefore more important than love. We’ve got your back, Faith. Keep fighting the good fight!
Did I read that right? He REALLY said the word swine?
Wow. What a jerk.
Yep, add THAT to my list, Greg.
No Natalie I didn’t say it, I just repeated what our Lord Jesus Christ said. Matthew 7:6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs (KJV says swine)If you do they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.”
That “ol” pesky word of God keeps on getting in the way of your opinion doesn’t it?
Ha ha… M-kay, Greg.
You’d make a great fundy preacher. Seriously. You’ve got a lot of it in you.
Oh, it’s your turn now. Go ahead.
Natalie – And you’ve got alot of stuff in you that makes the grass grow green.
Aww… well, since sunshine makes the grass grow green through photosynthesis, I’ll take that as a compliment. 😉
Yes, your are quite the little sunbeam in our digital world.
Greg, whether you want to consider the possibility or not, your use of Christ’s words (taken out of Biblical context, btw) in this particular context, at this particular time, is basically calling those who don’t agree with you both dogs and pigs. Rude behavior, at the very least. You’ll notice, I hope, that you’ve managed to make more than one person go 😯 at your comments, including me. So, I’m calling you on it.
Agree to disagree, step out of the argument, but do it without trying to demean your opponents, m’kay?
Tiquatoo – Hey I can handle it. Our Lord told us this precise thing would happen.
The verse I quoted is in its exact, proper context.
I guess I will go ahead and once again try to exegete this passage for all of you.
To start off with this statement of Jesus is allegorical, obviously no one was pitching pearls down in front of pigs. The meaning here really is quite simple. Jesus is telling us not to persist in offering what is sacred or of value to those who have no appreciation for it, not only will your offering become contaminated and be despised, your honest efforts to help and shed light could be turned down and even openly attacked. (hmm, sounds familiar)
Folks our life, time, energy, opportunities and abilities are God’s pearls – they are His. We must discern when and where to use these pearls, which we are merely stewards of.
Only a hardcore fundy could read the sermon on the mount, and think it justifies them behaving like a jackass. Yes I just said you are behaving like a jackass. No I don’t normally call names, but I’m intentionally stopping short of saying you *are* anything.
RobM – I have never quoted a scripture that was more in context – this is exactly the spot for this verse and *exactly* what our Lord’s meaning was here.
I won’t call you any vile names, but let’s see what our Lord thinks about you and your opinion.
Proverbs 18:2 “A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinions.
Let me finish by saying again that it does not matter what I think or say, as always it matters “What thus saith the Lord”
Yes thank God I came out of fundyism, but God’s Word is still God’s Word, we will be judged one day based on how we responded to this word, if you’ve heard a fundy sermon somewhat similar to that in the past, I am sorry, but the absolute fact is, we DO have a responsibility to respond and adhere to God’s word.
Case in (extended droning on & on) point.
@Greg – I won’t call you any vile names, but let’s see what our Lord thinks about you and your opinion.
Proverbs 8:13: “The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.”
Proverbs 11:2: “When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.”
Proverbs 13:10: “Where there is strife, there is pride, but wisdom is found in those who take advice.”
Proverbs 14:3: “A fool’s mouth lashes out with pride, but the lips of the wise protect them.”
Proverbs 16:18: “Pride goes before destruction,
a haughty spirit before a fall.”
Wow–
little late on this thread–looks like everybody is ganging up on the conservative again.
It is more than a little revealing how that lately whenever a conservative voice on nearly any issue posts, they are openly attacked and argued down.
But if an unbeleiver or far left liberal says anything about anything…sometimes using four letter vulgarity and the like, they are either openly “amen’ed” (is that a word?) or politley overlooked.
Makes any of us who lean even a little to the right , more than little wary.
What has SFL become?
🙁
*sigh* It has been a heated debate. I know I’ve thrown my temper a bit, but that’s just because I feel passionately about what I believe. And, we ALL have our interpretations. People have been arguing Scripture since it was written, so that’s no surprise. Everyone wants to be right and firmly believes that they are right.
I’m done. Really. I have no ill feelings, truly. I love a good debate, especially if I can throw in snark.
Regardless of what I feel about anyone’s delivery, interpretations, opinions, etc., I still love ya’ll.
So, I’m bowing out of this conversation and agreeing to disagree.
Love and hugs.
My Darlin Natalie, one of the most valuable lessons that I have learned asn officer is that its better to walk away than to argue until you are blue in the face. People are so close minded to any opinion other than their own and nothing that you can say or do will get them to accept the fact that there is another line of thought out there other than their own without trying to beat you over the head with a Bible (1611) to beat some “common sense” into you. And to quote another move (Forest Gump), “That is all I have to say about that”.
Natalie – I am delighted that you found your bible, keep reading, it gets better and better.
Theo – It’s not too bad. I think its about (4) they make alot of noise but very little substance.
A familiar pattern often repeated by Fundies on SFL: defend rude behavior, talk down some more, but don’t address the point you were replying to.
The original point got lost about half a mile up the page, and we’re now arguing over minutia.
completely agree!
Crime fighting exfundy – It’s to your last comment that I am completely agreeing with.
Anyone else think the kid on the left looks like young Tom Riddle from the 6th Harry Potter movie?
You’re right! He does. Hmm….wonder if that says something…