63 thoughts on “Sufficiency of Scripture For…Everything.”
You are on a roll…..LM…….(a)(Shhhh)….O!
vacation did him some good.
And when you ask them why, they’ll start pointing out all the wrong things that Sigmund Freud taught, without bothering to find out whether modern psychologists still believe that stuff now. Of course, they do that with science, too. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised…
And when you ask them why, they’ll start pointing out all the wrong things that Sigmund Freud taught, without bothering to find out whether modern psychologists still believe that stuff now. Of course, they do that with science, too. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised.
I read Jay Adams’ first book, Competent to Counsel, a few months back. And honestly, it was nothing but an opportunistic rant. Sure, sure — the discipline of psychology had some trouble in the 1970s. I get that. They got that too, and like you say, Josh, they fixed it! They did.
I also read Lundy Bancroft’s Why Does He Do That?. Wow. WOW!! Now that is what a good book that honestly deals with SIN should look like!! Yeah, it’s secular, but it’s all about taking responsibility for your SIN!
Sigh. . . .
It’s part and parcel of the whole fundy mindset equating intellectualism and academics with liberal, godless, athiests and other things of the world that are to be avoided at all costs. When the fundy is faced with an academic issue instead of following truth wherever it takes them, they attack the person presenting the issue and retreat to the bunker to form a strategy for defending their ignorance.
“Run away, run away…. quickly, back to the Bunker for more Holy Handgrenades. Brother, Doctor Tobias D.D.(Hon.) …Please find us some proof texts we can use to defend our ignorance against the worldly onslaught!”
Dr. Tobias D.D. (Hon.) answers, “All we need is found right here in our un-copyrighted, 1611 King James Holy Bible! The answers for everthing are spelled out in here. Science never answered nothing, that the Bible didn’t already have an answer for.” (Actually have heard that last line preached from a pulpit.)
When the Devil is coming agin’ ye just remember to hold on to ye life verse and it will see ye through. Fundy mysticism is alive and well.
Bottom line is, once again, control.
Nice! Has anyone heard the story of how I became a software engineer? I searched through the KJB for all instances of “for, do, while, if, then, else, …”. In some instances, using define statements, I was able to get some verses to compile.
Caricature, oversimplification, and ridicule are the retreat of those without an argument. Apparently, both sides can be guilty of it.
SFL: Criticizing the opposition while pretending to criticize yourself.
Caricature, oversimplification, and ridicule are the retreat of those without an argument.
Or those who after spending hours and hours in careful debate come to realize that the discussion is pointless since nobody is listening anyway and decide to have a few laughs about it.
If you’re coming here looking for deep and thoughtful answers to life, the universe, and fundyland you’re setting yourself up for disappointment, my friend.
3.5 years of good psychotherapy did me more good than 12 years in Fundyland.
Why do truisms need an argument?
of course, the scriptures are only all-sufficient so long as they’re translated correctly, according to fundies. and mormons.
Dude. Totally made my day with this one. The whole fundy vs. psychology thing has really been pushing my buttons as of late. Thanks for the reprieve!
Reader Mo, how could you forget JW’s? Duh.
lk- you sound just like my help-meat 😛
If you don’t believe in Jay Adams’ 1970-based Nouthetic Counseling, you don’t believe in the sufficiency of the Scriptures. This IS Biblical counseling institutionalized. Schizophrenia, hypoglycemia and depression are not illnesses but they’re ways people act up for refusing to ask someone for forgiveness. The antidote for this is to have a round-table discussion at the end of each day and confess your sins to each other and to God.
I just summarized the book for you guys- no need to read it!
Jay Adams, Tom Cruise, and Mary Baker Eddy walk into an emergency room. . . .
Oh please, please, somebody supply the next line….
I’m kind of ashamed to admit it now, but I used to be into guys like Adams. Oddly enough Competent to Counsel and other books like it were influential in my leaving fundamentalism, so I’ll at least give them credit for that! I’ve since then come to see that the whole nouthetic (I’m weary of hearing “biblical” used to describe things) movement is based upon a gross misunderstanding of the authority and sufficiency of scripture, common grace, etc.
@Lou Melà nd: so according to Adams I must be sinning and feeding idolatry of the heart when I follow my doctor’s advice and eat something when I notice my blood sugar dropping (I’m hypoglycemic and crankiness actually is one of my early warning signs). I’m not entirely sure how I’m supposed to deal with my heart issues when I ignore those signs and end up passed out on the floor. It’s a little hard to “self-counsel” and pray then! I’m so glad I’m out of that world now…blech.
@BASSENCO: where’s Reader Mo when you need him?
I have a friend who went hard-core fundie and she had to’ repent’ of getting a psychology degree-because psychology is of Satan. (It even sounded like she destroyed her diploma!) This was on top of her ‘repenting’ for the evil sin of going to college-even a fundie light college- in the first place. Women aren’t allowed to get an education you know.
Oh, and there in no such thing as mental illness….it is ALL an indication that you are ‘wrong with God.’
Camille: Jay Adams, Tom Cruise, and Mary Baker Eddy walk into an emergency room. . . .
BASSENCO: And the nurse at the desk says, “What seems to be the problem”
OK, OK, somebody go!
Jay Adams, Tom Cruise, and Mary Baker Eddy walk into an emergency room…and see a man in a full body cast moaning in pain.
Tom Cruise declares “this man is not injured, he merely needs to audit himself into a clear state to uncover his thetan reality then his so-called pain will cease.”
Mary Baker Eddy contradicts “No, this man merely needs to acknowledge that his physical flesh is a sinful manifestation and that only pure spirit can be righteous then he will understand his pain is an illusion.”
Jay Adams says nothing but picks up a Gideon Bible and begins beating the man on the head with it.
“What are you doing?!” ask the other two in horror.
“Discipleship!” yells Jay loudly “By the time I’m done he’ll still be in pain but by golly he’ll at least have the decency to feel guilty about it!”
Thanks, I’ll be here all evening.
Oh, sorry, I just realized I did the whole joke myself instead of the line at a time thing.
The rest of you carry on.
Folks the story I am about to relate is true I have redacted the names to protect the ignorant:
This is first hand Fundy “Sufficiency of the King James Bible” testimony:
xxxxxxxxx: I am glad I have the Holy, Inspired, Inafallible, Inexhaustive word of God in the King James Version! One that has not been corrupted by man. And I am thankful I dont have to know foreign languages to get Gods real meaning!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx:
Amen honey! Thats why the KJV was given to the english speaking people. If you stay with the KJV, you have the same bible as from the begining just in English. If you knew you had the correct bible, why would you try to learn the meaning in another language, it’s been done for you! God says to love him with all your mind, but some people take that out of context and try to get smarter than everyone else by reding books that “man” have wrote instead of just believing the Bilble and start saying words noone can spell much less say! Love God with all your mind by learning the Bible, not tring to correct it or put personal thoughts to it! The bible means what it says or else it wouldnt be in there! Im sorry, that just bugs me when people try to get smart by turning away from the KJV when infact the Bible calls them fools!
xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Another thing xxxxxxx, when people that are’nt right with God hear stuff like this, they are gonna scream “Legalistic” dont pay it no attenchion, they have to say that so the wont feel they are wrong. I am agaisnt Legalism, God set me free from that, but I would rather have a little legalism actions than be a liberal! Believing what the Bible says does not make you legalistic anyway, it makes you a christian! OK, Im stopping LOL
Copied verbatim from FB. (original spelling errors have been supernaturally preserved) You can’t make this stuff up.
ok- mary baker eddy, tom cruise, and jay adams walk into a dr’s office. romance ensues. mary baker eddy is not involved in said romance.
@ Don.
What you posted made me shiver. Don’t they realize that the KJV translators had to know foreign languages to give them the KJV?
@Don: glorious. simply glorious. easily the best summary of the kjv only position i’ve ever read. it has everything: straw men, incorrect spelling, poor use of apostrophes, non-sequitors, koran-like bibliolotry, and the implication that the kjv is not hard to understand. perfect!
Apparently not, at least not according to their current “Pastor.” (Stepford residents dontcha know, I am not kidding when I say that they practice 90% of the cliche’ fundy stuff we poke fun at here. Nothing like redneck, southern, anti-intellectual fundyism.)
Though I know they both have been exposed to the truth, but have rejected it because it was too cerebral. I’m fairly certain that this was a dig at their former pastor (his words wuz big’uns and you couldn’t spell ’em mus less say ’em. Like, Justification, sanctification, glorification, propitiation and maybe Septuagint … jest to name a few.) and maybe someone questioned their KJVO stance while they were out street preachin’. Who knows.
@mo Yep, just like Preggo… it’s in there! 🙂
oops one too many “g’s”
I heard a joke involving MBE (or, well, her teachings), that may only be similar for that reason. But it might fit in here somehow, kind of…
A Baptist, a Pentecostal, and a Christian Scientist die and go to hell. The Baptist says, “I should have listened to my pastor; I wasn’t sincere when I prayed to ask Jesus into my heart.” The Pentecostal says, “I must have sinned and lost my salvation!” The Christian Scientist says, “I’m not here, and it’s not hot.”
Nice FB work @Don. I’d prefer to use the [sic] on typo’s rather than disclaimer at the end. I’m going to blame your fundy background on disclaimer! 🙂
I’m thrilled to see the triumphant return of Stick Figure Jr, and his back-sassin’ dad ways. If he did spend time in a Roloff home, it sure doesn’t appear he had his will broken. Keep up the wise-acre comments, young’in!
According to Kathy Griffin, the gays don’t want Tom Cruise anymore.
In some instances, using define statements, I was able to get some verses to compile.
JimE made me snort.
@Don: if i recall correctly, the official kjvo position on the septuagent is that it didn’t exist. as an Orthodox, i have to chuckle at the fact that our new testament (the byzantine text, if you will) is God’s inspired and perfectly preserved word, but our old testament (lxx) didn’t exist, or if it did, is rubbish.
i also like how God preserved His word by using a Church with a bunch of Mary-worshippin’, dress-wearin’, baby-baptizin’, non-shavin’, long-haired, image-kissin’, sign-of-the-cross-makin’, creed-saying’, pre-written-prayer-recitin’, liturgy-chantin’, ritual-obsessed, church-n-state-non-seperatin’, to-saint-prayin’, for-dead-prayin’, prostratin’, works-believin’ sissies.
@ Mo Funny how they turn a blind eye to the origin of the TR fo sho.
I’m afraid these are now in a Ruckman-knights church, at least it sounds like it on the surface.
And as far as “works-belivin”…..course now they will deny it but fundy’s are all about works sanctification and performance Christianity, they can’t see it in themselves but boy-howdy that is how they measure themselves spiritually. they’re doers of something and they’re gawd’s favorites for doing it.
@Reader Mo: yeah, and the KJV translators weren’t exactly Baptists, either. 🙂
Gosh, this would be funnier if it weren’t so darn true. I had a run-in with a guy who believed this to the letter. Truly and honestly believed that man was so corrupted by sin that he was incapable of even stumbling upon truth (and we’re talking scientific and medical truth, not spiritual truth). Believed the earth was the center of the solar system because a few passages say that the sun rose, set, or otherwise stood still, and by golly, if the KJV says the sun stood still and made it sound surprising, that must mean that ordinarily the sun moves, right? None of this “perspective of the observer” crap. His attitude was, if it isn’t in the Bible, it’s not important enough to learn about.
People like that are incapable of being reasoned with.
@Don true.
Fundie sanctification is a works based sanctification – and to mess with any part of salvation is to mess with salvation itself. Of course you mention the world legalist in their presence and they are super quick to point the finger at the Catholics. But they have four fingers pointing back at them… because you may not have to work to get saved.. but you better cut your hair brother or you aren’t a good Christian. The irony is they judge exterior as an indicator of spirituality and many times a dude with short hair and a suit is running off with his secretary the next week.
They also have a anemic, preferential interpretation of scripture. Essentially the Bible is sufficient to be wrested to prop up their preferences.
What is amazing to me is that most IFB’s, self included (well, I am not an IFB anymore, but when I was), eschew Lordship Salvation (I define it as the promise to do works in order to be saved – commit your life to Christ stuff), rightly so, but then add on so much legalism AFTER salvation that they may as well just say you are saved by your works. I can’t count the times , as an IFB, that a group of us would doubt on some guys salvation because he was wearing a shirt with a band on it, or he refused to wear a tie to church (ahhh, how fondly I remember the days of running a King James Bible forum, where we would discuss such essential doctrinal points as “should you wear a tie to church” or “geocentricity”), or he used an NIV or whatever.
As an IFB, I had major problems with the internet, but it didn’t stop me standing on the corner of the street screaming about boozing and whoring (actually… it did, eventually, and I became the biggest wreck of my life, completely depressed, self condemned, hopeless, and finally saw the truth about Jesus Christ. He wasn’t just a Saviour from Hell, but from myself and everything in me (which is nothing good), which ultimately led to me leaving the IFB church praise God).
Kudos to you, Darrell! I laughed!
Truly and honestly believed that man was so corrupted by sin that he was incapable of even stumbling upon truth (and we’re talking scientific and medical truth, not spiritual truth). Believed the earth was the center of the solar system because a few passages say that the sun rose, set, or otherwise stood still, and by golly, if the KJV says the sun stood still and made it sound surprising, that must mean that ordinarily the sun moves, right?. . .
People like that are incapable of being reasoned with.
Figures of speech are completely lost on fundies. I think we both know this from long, sad experience. Their weird and unhealthy obsession with literally interpreting everything eventually permeates their manner of viewing the world so much that they can’t even grasp the most elementary irony or sarcasm.
@ Mounty:
The really sad thing is, God gave us science as a gift–He intended it to be an act of worship so that we could learn what an amazing Creator He is. He made us naturally curious so that we would pursue this knowledge. He gave us the Bible so we would know the important spiritual truth, but an infinite God cannot possibly be confined to a single book.
@Don
With Prego or Preggo – it’s still “in there”. LOL.
>>Figures of speech are completely lost on fundies. I think we both know this from long, sad experience. Their weird and unhealthy obsession with literally interpreting everything eventually permeates their manner of viewing the world so much that they can’t even grasp the most elementary irony or sarcasm.<<
Or metaphors.
@ Loren lol yepzeedoozers 🙂
The “All Sufficiency of Scriptures” is a hard one to pin down. I listened to a sermon by Masak (sp?) from BJU. It was actually from his church. It was about how to find the will of God which is one of his pet sermons. Anyway he had a few presuppositions. The first one was the Sufficiency of Scripture. Now, I had always gathered this to mean that the Bible contains “*everything*” we need to know about *everything*. At least that is how it was taught to me at BJU. But he started off with a definition essentially the Bible is sufficient for godliness or all sufficient for the Christian life. I had to listen a few times to make sure I heard him right. But of course as he started giving examples and applying it you quickly realized that his presupposition was to say that the Bible contains *everything* we need to live life.
I just cannot believe that. I will not believe that. It is absurd on so many levels. And anyone who actually believes that must take it to the extreme Mounty mentioned. You have to believe that if it is in the Bible it is true and everyone else is wrong. But that just isn’t how even Fundamentalism works. In science class you use a science text book (though BJU flaws theirs by design). In Math class you use a math book. All of this contains reams upon reams of information, data, and text that has no basis in scripture (unless you take it to the most abstract forms).
So I guess I’m curious. Is the doctrine of sufficiency of scripture merely for the Christian life? All things pertaining to godliness can be derived from scripture or is it literally *all* things pertaining to *everything.* In other words the Christian need not search any other source of knowledge because God has already given us everything we need to know? The former I can at least stomach, the latter is mental dissonance because as far as I can tell the entire idea of a University that teaches anything but strict Bible classes ruins this idea. To even quote an outside source at all goes against this presupposition, perhaps even just reading an outside source could be damnable.
I think Scripture contains all things necessary for our salvation, not all the secrets of life, nor does it contain all truth. I think God is way too big to be pinned down in one book. I also think God is bigger than the boogy man.
See — if Calvin is right and the Bible is God talking baby talk to us, why would we think that’s all there is?
Comments are closed.
A silly blog dedicated to Independent Fundamental Baptists, their standards, their beliefs, and their craziness.
You are on a roll…..LM…….(a)(Shhhh)….O!
vacation did him some good.
And when you ask them why, they’ll start pointing out all the wrong things that Sigmund Freud taught, without bothering to find out whether modern psychologists still believe that stuff now. Of course, they do that with science, too. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised…
I read Jay Adams’ first book, Competent to Counsel, a few months back. And honestly, it was nothing but an opportunistic rant. Sure, sure — the discipline of psychology had some trouble in the 1970s. I get that. They got that too, and like you say, Josh, they fixed it! They did.
I also read Lundy Bancroft’s Why Does He Do That?. Wow. WOW!! Now that is what a good book that honestly deals with SIN should look like!! Yeah, it’s secular, but it’s all about taking responsibility for your SIN!
Sigh. . . .
It’s part and parcel of the whole fundy mindset equating intellectualism and academics with liberal, godless, athiests and other things of the world that are to be avoided at all costs. When the fundy is faced with an academic issue instead of following truth wherever it takes them, they attack the person presenting the issue and retreat to the bunker to form a strategy for defending their ignorance.
“Run away, run away…. quickly, back to the Bunker for more Holy Handgrenades. Brother, Doctor Tobias D.D.(Hon.) …Please find us some proof texts we can use to defend our ignorance against the worldly onslaught!”
Dr. Tobias D.D. (Hon.) answers, “All we need is found right here in our un-copyrighted, 1611 King James Holy Bible! The answers for everthing are spelled out in here. Science never answered nothing, that the Bible didn’t already have an answer for.” (Actually have heard that last line preached from a pulpit.)
When the Devil is coming agin’ ye just remember to hold on to ye life verse and it will see ye through. Fundy mysticism is alive and well.
Bottom line is, once again, control.
Nice! Has anyone heard the story of how I became a software engineer? I searched through the KJB for all instances of “for, do, while, if, then, else, …”. In some instances, using define statements, I was able to get some verses to compile.
Caricature, oversimplification, and ridicule are the retreat of those without an argument. Apparently, both sides can be guilty of it.
SFL: Criticizing the opposition while pretending to criticize yourself.
Or those who after spending hours and hours in careful debate come to realize that the discussion is pointless since nobody is listening anyway and decide to have a few laughs about it.
If you’re coming here looking for deep and thoughtful answers to life, the universe, and fundyland you’re setting yourself up for disappointment, my friend.
3.5 years of good psychotherapy did me more good than 12 years in Fundyland.
Why do truisms need an argument?
of course, the scriptures are only all-sufficient so long as they’re translated correctly, according to fundies. and mormons.
Dude. Totally made my day with this one. The whole fundy vs. psychology thing has really been pushing my buttons as of late. Thanks for the reprieve!
Reader Mo, how could you forget JW’s? Duh.
lk- you sound just like my help-meat 😛
If you don’t believe in Jay Adams’ 1970-based Nouthetic Counseling, you don’t believe in the sufficiency of the Scriptures. This IS Biblical counseling institutionalized. Schizophrenia, hypoglycemia and depression are not illnesses but they’re ways people act up for refusing to ask someone for forgiveness. The antidote for this is to have a round-table discussion at the end of each day and confess your sins to each other and to God.
I just summarized the book for you guys- no need to read it!
Jay Adams, Tom Cruise, and Mary Baker Eddy walk into an emergency room. . . .
Oh please, please, somebody supply the next line….
I’m kind of ashamed to admit it now, but I used to be into guys like Adams. Oddly enough Competent to Counsel and other books like it were influential in my leaving fundamentalism, so I’ll at least give them credit for that! I’ve since then come to see that the whole nouthetic (I’m weary of hearing “biblical” used to describe things) movement is based upon a gross misunderstanding of the authority and sufficiency of scripture, common grace, etc.
@Lou Melà nd: so according to Adams I must be sinning and feeding idolatry of the heart when I follow my doctor’s advice and eat something when I notice my blood sugar dropping (I’m hypoglycemic and crankiness actually is one of my early warning signs). I’m not entirely sure how I’m supposed to deal with my heart issues when I ignore those signs and end up passed out on the floor. It’s a little hard to “self-counsel” and pray then! I’m so glad I’m out of that world now…blech.
@BASSENCO: where’s Reader Mo when you need him?
I have a friend who went hard-core fundie and she had to’ repent’ of getting a psychology degree-because psychology is of Satan. (It even sounded like she destroyed her diploma!) This was on top of her ‘repenting’ for the evil sin of going to college-even a fundie light college- in the first place. Women aren’t allowed to get an education you know.
Oh, and there in no such thing as mental illness….it is ALL an indication that you are ‘wrong with God.’
Camille: Jay Adams, Tom Cruise, and Mary Baker Eddy walk into an emergency room. . . .
BASSENCO: And the nurse at the desk says, “What seems to be the problem”
OK, OK, somebody go!
Jay Adams, Tom Cruise, and Mary Baker Eddy walk into an emergency room…and see a man in a full body cast moaning in pain.
Tom Cruise declares “this man is not injured, he merely needs to audit himself into a clear state to uncover his thetan reality then his so-called pain will cease.”
Mary Baker Eddy contradicts “No, this man merely needs to acknowledge that his physical flesh is a sinful manifestation and that only pure spirit can be righteous then he will understand his pain is an illusion.”
Jay Adams says nothing but picks up a Gideon Bible and begins beating the man on the head with it.
“What are you doing?!” ask the other two in horror.
“Discipleship!” yells Jay loudly “By the time I’m done he’ll still be in pain but by golly he’ll at least have the decency to feel guilty about it!”
Thanks, I’ll be here all evening.
Oh, sorry, I just realized I did the whole joke myself instead of the line at a time thing.
The rest of you carry on.
Folks the story I am about to relate is true I have redacted the names to protect the ignorant:
This is first hand Fundy “Sufficiency of the King James Bible” testimony:
Copied verbatim from FB. (original spelling errors have been supernaturally preserved) You can’t make this stuff up.
ok- mary baker eddy, tom cruise, and jay adams walk into a dr’s office. romance ensues. mary baker eddy is not involved in said romance.
@ Don.
What you posted made me shiver. Don’t they realize that the KJV translators had to know foreign languages to give them the KJV?
@Don: glorious. simply glorious. easily the best summary of the kjv only position i’ve ever read. it has everything: straw men, incorrect spelling, poor use of apostrophes, non-sequitors, koran-like bibliolotry, and the implication that the kjv is not hard to understand. perfect!
Apparently not, at least not according to their current “Pastor.” (Stepford residents dontcha know, I am not kidding when I say that they practice 90% of the cliche’ fundy stuff we poke fun at here. Nothing like redneck, southern, anti-intellectual fundyism.)
Though I know they both have been exposed to the truth, but have rejected it because it was too cerebral. I’m fairly certain that this was a dig at their former pastor (his words wuz big’uns and you couldn’t spell ’em mus less say ’em. Like, Justification, sanctification, glorification, propitiation and maybe Septuagint … jest to name a few.) and maybe someone questioned their KJVO stance while they were out street preachin’. Who knows.
@mo Yep, just like Preggo… it’s in there! 🙂
oops one too many “g’s”
I heard a joke involving MBE (or, well, her teachings), that may only be similar for that reason. But it might fit in here somehow, kind of…
A Baptist, a Pentecostal, and a Christian Scientist die and go to hell. The Baptist says, “I should have listened to my pastor; I wasn’t sincere when I prayed to ask Jesus into my heart.” The Pentecostal says, “I must have sinned and lost my salvation!” The Christian Scientist says, “I’m not here, and it’s not hot.”
Nice FB work @Don. I’d prefer to use the [sic] on typo’s rather than disclaimer at the end. I’m going to blame your fundy background on disclaimer! 🙂
I’m thrilled to see the triumphant return of Stick Figure Jr, and his back-sassin’ dad ways. If he did spend time in a Roloff home, it sure doesn’t appear he had his will broken. Keep up the wise-acre comments, young’in!
According to Kathy Griffin, the gays don’t want Tom Cruise anymore.
JimE made me snort.
@Don: if i recall correctly, the official kjvo position on the septuagent is that it didn’t exist. as an Orthodox, i have to chuckle at the fact that our new testament (the byzantine text, if you will) is God’s inspired and perfectly preserved word, but our old testament (lxx) didn’t exist, or if it did, is rubbish.
i also like how God preserved His word by using a Church with a bunch of Mary-worshippin’, dress-wearin’, baby-baptizin’, non-shavin’, long-haired, image-kissin’, sign-of-the-cross-makin’, creed-saying’, pre-written-prayer-recitin’, liturgy-chantin’, ritual-obsessed, church-n-state-non-seperatin’, to-saint-prayin’, for-dead-prayin’, prostratin’, works-believin’ sissies.
@ Mo Funny how they turn a blind eye to the origin of the TR fo sho.
I’m afraid these are now in a Ruckman-knights church, at least it sounds like it on the surface.
And as far as “works-belivin”…..course now they will deny it but fundy’s are all about works sanctification and performance Christianity, they can’t see it in themselves but boy-howdy that is how they measure themselves spiritually. they’re doers of something and they’re gawd’s favorites for doing it.
@Reader Mo: yeah, and the KJV translators weren’t exactly Baptists, either. 🙂
Gosh, this would be funnier if it weren’t so darn true. I had a run-in with a guy who believed this to the letter. Truly and honestly believed that man was so corrupted by sin that he was incapable of even stumbling upon truth (and we’re talking scientific and medical truth, not spiritual truth). Believed the earth was the center of the solar system because a few passages say that the sun rose, set, or otherwise stood still, and by golly, if the KJV says the sun stood still and made it sound surprising, that must mean that ordinarily the sun moves, right? None of this “perspective of the observer” crap. His attitude was, if it isn’t in the Bible, it’s not important enough to learn about.
People like that are incapable of being reasoned with.
@Don true.
Fundie sanctification is a works based sanctification – and to mess with any part of salvation is to mess with salvation itself. Of course you mention the world legalist in their presence and they are super quick to point the finger at the Catholics. But they have four fingers pointing back at them… because you may not have to work to get saved.. but you better cut your hair brother or you aren’t a good Christian. The irony is they judge exterior as an indicator of spirituality and many times a dude with short hair and a suit is running off with his secretary the next week.
They also have a anemic, preferential interpretation of scripture. Essentially the Bible is sufficient to be wrested to prop up their preferences.
What is amazing to me is that most IFB’s, self included (well, I am not an IFB anymore, but when I was), eschew Lordship Salvation (I define it as the promise to do works in order to be saved – commit your life to Christ stuff), rightly so, but then add on so much legalism AFTER salvation that they may as well just say you are saved by your works. I can’t count the times , as an IFB, that a group of us would doubt on some guys salvation because he was wearing a shirt with a band on it, or he refused to wear a tie to church (ahhh, how fondly I remember the days of running a King James Bible forum, where we would discuss such essential doctrinal points as “should you wear a tie to church” or “geocentricity”), or he used an NIV or whatever.
As an IFB, I had major problems with the internet, but it didn’t stop me standing on the corner of the street screaming about boozing and whoring (actually… it did, eventually, and I became the biggest wreck of my life, completely depressed, self condemned, hopeless, and finally saw the truth about Jesus Christ. He wasn’t just a Saviour from Hell, but from myself and everything in me (which is nothing good), which ultimately led to me leaving the IFB church praise God).
Kudos to you, Darrell! I laughed!
Figures of speech are completely lost on fundies. I think we both know this from long, sad experience. Their weird and unhealthy obsession with literally interpreting everything eventually permeates their manner of viewing the world so much that they can’t even grasp the most elementary irony or sarcasm.
@ Mounty:
The really sad thing is, God gave us science as a gift–He intended it to be an act of worship so that we could learn what an amazing Creator He is. He made us naturally curious so that we would pursue this knowledge. He gave us the Bible so we would know the important spiritual truth, but an infinite God cannot possibly be confined to a single book.
@Don
With Prego or Preggo – it’s still “in there”. LOL.
>>Figures of speech are completely lost on fundies. I think we both know this from long, sad experience. Their weird and unhealthy obsession with literally interpreting everything eventually permeates their manner of viewing the world so much that they can’t even grasp the most elementary irony or sarcasm.<<
Or metaphors.
@ Loren lol yepzeedoozers 🙂
The “All Sufficiency of Scriptures” is a hard one to pin down. I listened to a sermon by Masak (sp?) from BJU. It was actually from his church. It was about how to find the will of God which is one of his pet sermons. Anyway he had a few presuppositions. The first one was the Sufficiency of Scripture. Now, I had always gathered this to mean that the Bible contains “*everything*” we need to know about *everything*. At least that is how it was taught to me at BJU. But he started off with a definition essentially the Bible is sufficient for godliness or all sufficient for the Christian life. I had to listen a few times to make sure I heard him right. But of course as he started giving examples and applying it you quickly realized that his presupposition was to say that the Bible contains *everything* we need to live life.
I just cannot believe that. I will not believe that. It is absurd on so many levels. And anyone who actually believes that must take it to the extreme Mounty mentioned. You have to believe that if it is in the Bible it is true and everyone else is wrong. But that just isn’t how even Fundamentalism works. In science class you use a science text book (though BJU flaws theirs by design). In Math class you use a math book. All of this contains reams upon reams of information, data, and text that has no basis in scripture (unless you take it to the most abstract forms).
So I guess I’m curious. Is the doctrine of sufficiency of scripture merely for the Christian life? All things pertaining to godliness can be derived from scripture or is it literally *all* things pertaining to *everything.* In other words the Christian need not search any other source of knowledge because God has already given us everything we need to know? The former I can at least stomach, the latter is mental dissonance because as far as I can tell the entire idea of a University that teaches anything but strict Bible classes ruins this idea. To even quote an outside source at all goes against this presupposition, perhaps even just reading an outside source could be damnable.
I think Scripture contains all things necessary for our salvation, not all the secrets of life, nor does it contain all truth. I think God is way too big to be pinned down in one book. I also think God is bigger than the boogy man.
See — if Calvin is right and the Bible is God talking baby talk to us, why would we think that’s all there is?