Logic Fails

It’s been a while since we checked in with Steve Anderson, so I thought I’d indulge in a little extra dose of crazy today.

I understand this correctly, Steve is telling us that kids who don’t get saved in school chapel will all end up gay. Which is demonstrably true. Obviously.

270 thoughts on “Logic Fails”

        1. Dear Jew 4 Jesus:

          As I see it, Mr. Anderson is a deeply troubled man who uses a pretense of faithfulness to God as a cover to mask his mental illness. I suspect that this will come to light soon enough. When it does, expect him to be replaced by someone just as extreme and unstable as he is.

          As an aside, what this poor fellow does fit my understanding of preaching.

          Christian Socialist

    1. Maybe he’s using an exponential scale. You know, the first time you tell them, they’ve heard it once; second time, they’ve heard it like 10 times; third time, you’ve told them a hundred times; fourth is a thousand…so when you hear a preacher say “They’ve heard it a million times!”, really all they mean is maybe seven times, tops. Seven being the number of perfection…so I guess if they’ve heard it seven (one million) times and still haven’t repented, they’re beyond hope.

    2. If they’ve heard a thousand times maybe they’re just burnt out. Ever notice how some things become meaningless if you hear them too much? James Thurber used to repeat the word “spool” until it seemed like gibberish 😕 in order to go to sleep.

    3. You know what is funny is that this is the same argument that fundies use against attending liturgical churches. They say that reciting the Lord’s Prayer or Hail Mary or the Apostles’ Creed or taking communion each Sunday “cheapens” these things and yet they berate Christian school kids wiht the “gospel” on a daily basis.

      My mother grew up in a liturgical church and she always told me that she “never heard the gospel” growing up. I told her she just wasn’t paying attention!

      1. The same logic would say you shouldn’t read the Bible more than once, or hear the same sermon message more than once.

        I actually think that the Lord’s Prayer and other liturgical prayers become more profound to me every time I say them, not less so.

        1. I would rather repeat Christian truth any day than hear the fundie “gospel” parrotted ad naseum.

        2. I just have to add a big amen to your comments. Since I have been in a Liturgical church my faith has grown!

  1. This Sunday will be my 2nd Sunday since I have broke free from the Fundies. Already when I meet people I have known for the past 25 years on the street I get rebuked like this, telling me to not talk to their family as I am now corrupt and I risk destroying the “things of God”. They also pointed their finger in my face and told me I wasn’t truly saved.

    In other words, they don’t want to hear the truth that Jesus died for everyone, not just the Fundies.

    No more crazy for me… I’m Fundie free! 😀

    1. I feel for you, but it is (unfortunately) to be expected, as you were (I believe) on staff, and thus someone prominent in your former church.

      I wonder if any of these people would be willing to talk Bible with you? They may be happier just blaming their own and their children’s failures on you.

    2. Already when I meet people I have known for the past 25 years on the street I get rebuked like this, telling me to not talk to their family as I am now corrupt and I risk destroying the “things of God”.

      That is so wrong, so asinine, so petty, so fearful, so stupid….
      Just how small, how weak, how inept, how afraid, how utterly helpless is this god they serve? Sin is more powerful than their god. Sin is the most powerful force in all creation according to these type of folks. The only way to counter sin is tol avoid it. They are so fearful of sin, getting sin on them, being contaminated by sin that they cannot see they are eat slap up with it.

      Again the Billy Sunday approach to sin: it is an external “thing” to be fought against. The harder one fights against the tangible external manifestations of sin… the more sin creeps into the sinfighters own heart.

    3. Welcome to the dark side. I remember my first few weeks out of fundyland, people weren’t too happy with my decision. But then again, I’m glad I’m only striving to please Christ and not men.

    4. Dear I’m coming out:

      While this would not be admitted by adherents of your former church, your action does represent an implicit if unspoken rebuke.

      From your ‘no more crazy’ remark, I’m guessing that the absence of a stable theological system and clear, Biblical thinking was a big issue for you. That language won’t mean squat to your erstwhile friends.

      I can’t tell you what to do, but in your place, I think I’d point out that the judge has been appointed [Ac 10:42], that we must all appear before his judgment seat [2Co 5:10], and that on that day, my appeal will be God’s righteousness received through faith in Christ [2Pe 1:2].

      You can try, ‘good luck on your right church membership appeal!’ But my observations suggest that such barbs are more useful when others direct them at you, and not the reverse. Use your own discretion.

      Still, I’d try to pry open the mind and plant a question, some little seed of thought, followed with ‘good seeing you’ and ‘we’ll talk again …’

      Would love to be a fly listening in on these conversations. Blessings!

      Christian Socialist

    5. Been there. Done that. Shunned as well. I actually feel sorry for them now because they are so caught up in it that they see the real “light” Jesus. Keep you head up and realize the only son that matters is God. Pray for their awakening .

    6. Every time I read stuff like this, I just 😯

      I belong to a small Anglican (wishy washy lukewarm ptooey and we drink red wine to boot) congregation. We recently had two long-time, active members “come out” to the local ELCA congregation because of a simmering difference of opinion regarding how our cash-strapped bunch was going to pay a priest. One side insisted that a priest was not needed; the other said that the congregation needed to scrape up the money to have a priest fly in and administer the Eucharist at least part of the time, while local parishioners conducted morning prayer the rest of the time. It doesn’t matter which side was which. The upshot was that the congregation voted one way and not the other, and one day this couple up and left.

      They left on very short notice. They left us hanging. Didn’t bother getting replacements for their voluntary duties for coffee hour, lesson reading, sandwich making for the homeless shelter, or the junior warden’s position. Just left.

      How do we talk about them? Like this: “Oh, right, the Bs used to do that, but they’re going to the Lutheran church now–I think A took that over–let’s go ask her.”

      How do we talk to them in public? Politely. As one does if one does not want to be taken for a ranting crackpot.

      The idea of pointing a finger while standing in a public area and quavering, “You’ll regreeeet iiiiit . . . yeeeewww wih-ulll . . . . ” just makes me think of whiny old drunks or demented senior citizens who think you stole their dog (that’s been dead for ten years).

    1. Absolutely.

      It is pretty hilarious how they all have different “standards” though, isn’t it? Mr. Anderson is as fundy as they come, yet he’d have to shave to work at PCC.

    2. Oh, yeah, I remember many years ago when facial hair of any kind was really really bad, and very very short hair on a man (VERY short, almost bald) was really really ‘suspect’ (if you get my drift).

      As I say about a lot of these things now that I’m retired and getting better (but not older), God sure does change His mind a lot, doesn’t He? (That was tongue in cheek.)

  2. What about Christian school principals who have screamed the gospel at kids hundreds of times, he’s screamed it at them thousands of times, and is still molesting children? Is there hope? His homosexual behavior with underage boys will probably just be described as “a good man making a mistake” and we can’t expose it because it will hurt the gospel that those kids have heard thousands of times an hour before they were groped. I mean, if its time to get real about what is really going on at Christian school lets get real! These people will bite and scratch anyone of the sheep who get out of line, but a fellow shepherd? Circle the wagons boyz, we are about to get persecuted.

    1. I would probably make his head explode. I am a Jesus-loving homo. I get a little tired of being the scapegoat for the fundies in both the traditional and evengelical camps. I also shake my head a little and feel so bad for them because of how small their concept of God really is. They can’t even imagine how many people there are who are just like me.

    2. Fundies sure are obsessed with who might potentially be having sex with whom, aren’t they?

      Of course, there’s homophobia everywhere . . . did anybody here see the home video “Ah-Ah’s Return” on Youtube? Boy loves stuffed monkey, boy loses stuffed monkey on camping trip at age four, boy mourns monkey, mom stumbles across similar monkey while shopping eBay for something else when boy is 7, mom buys monkey, mom takes monkey out of box, and IT’S THE EXACT SAME DOLL. It’s the boy’s old lovey. Boy cuddles monkey and dissolves in tears of joy and nostalgia.

      Comments immediately dive into how this evil mother is failing her son by letting him express his love. Because that will make him GAY GAY GAYYYYYY.

  3. Dear Steve Anderson:

    Just suppose that salvation and social justice were inseparably bound in the Isaiah 58 sense. Where does that leave you?

    Steve? Steve? Are you there?

    Christian Socialist

    1. I don’t know where I saw it (maybe here), but there is actually a video of him preaching about how terrible America is at caring for immigrants and the current anti-Hispanic hysteria. He goes off on those who are unwelcoming and reminds his flock that Christians are called to be better than the world and care for those sojourn.

      I was shocked when I saw it, but I guess it is a case of the broken clock being right twice a day.

      1. Dear Pastormike:

        Was that message discussing all Hispanics, or only heterosexual Hispanics?

        On the other hand, I noticed the other day that one of Paul’s ‘will not inherit the kingdom’ lists names such sins as idolators and homosexuals only to turn around and tell us, ‘and such were some of you’ [1Co 6:9-11]. Oh well, I suppose that Paul was also a ‘liberal.’ :mrgreen:

        Christian Socialist

        1. One hand on the hem of my flowy cullottes, the other on the neckline of my shirt to ensure modesty, I curtsy. 😆

        1. I posted this in yesterday’s thread too. Please consider it.

          2 Timothy 2:24-25

          “The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition….”

        2. It was at you Greg. I haven’t seen enough of Ronnie’s posts to know what she believes. That doesn’t speak against her character; just my lack of attention most likely.

        3. Thank you for thinking of me.

          “Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you.”

          1 Thessalonians 4:11

        4. When I see someone who claims to be a brother openly violating the scripture over and over again (not in a moment of weakness), it is my business.

  4. I am so thankful God does not feel this way. I rejected Christ throughout my fundie Christian school. I rejected Jesus because I rejected the people pushing Jesus not because I hated him. I wanted nothing to do with a Jesus they were preaching-they taught a Jesus who hated everything and loved nothing. I am so glad God was kind and showed me that he was different then how those fundies presented him.

    1. “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.” Gandhi

      Even if this is apocryphal, it sums up why many have spurned Christianity. After escaping Fundystan and looking back, I can’t imagine how it must look to someone dropped in suddenly.
      Come join us in the narrow way to freedom by following the narrow path of rules I will lay out for you. The more works you perform, the holier you will be. (Provided your works stay in the fellowship. We don’t want to appear liberal)

      1. There’s a story (perhaps also apocryphal) that Gandhi tried to join a Christian church when he lived in South Africa, but the church he approached happened to be for “Whites Only.” (Indians were considered “coloured” or “Asian” under South Africa’s segregation laws of the time.)
        Gandhi couldn’t see how there could be one God for white people and another for other races, so he gave up the idea of joining a church.

        1. I’d doubt that this is true since Hindus have gods for everything. A white people god wouldn’t be out of the question.

        2. Gandhi was no generic “Hindu.”
          His philosophy emphasized the equal value of all people. For example, he broke with the Indian tradition that some people are “Untouchable.”
          He was also knowledgeable about Christianity, Islam, Jainism, Sikhism, and Zoroastrianism, as well as Hinduism.

    2. Dear Jim:

      In other words, you didn’t reject Jesus at all. You rejected a false, legalistic, manipulative caricature of Jesus. Good for you!

      Christian Socialist

  5. I had a mama crying at my conference table at Christian school one night because she thought her 17 year old wasn’t saved, even though he told her he was saved–apparently he wasn’t saved enough or the right way or something in her mind–and she was certain that no one gets saved after age 18.

    1. That would be a surprise to quite a few people I know… and the Holy Spirit is not limited in whom He speaks to (sorry about ending the sentence with a preposition).

    2. My mother did this to me ALL THE TIME. She used to send me these sobbing e-mails at my Christian (non-fundie) college about how her heart was breaking that I was not saved and didn’t care about serving God and blah blah blah. She knew that I was not saved because (and I am not making these up):

      (1) I had stated in a few different conversations wiht her that I believed that Methodists, Assemblies of God, and Eastern Orthodox believers were saved.

      (2) I had stated that I believed that the Gospel is contained in the Apostle’s Creed (she believed that it was not – makes you wonder what she believed the Gospel was).

      (3)I had stated that I believed that Madeline L’Engle was a Christian author. (Can you believe what a hell-bound sinner I was?)

      (4) I read Harry Potter and His Dark Materials books during my first summer home from college and ONE TIME MY FATHER FOUND A COPY AND SAW THE WORD DEMON (even though it was actually daemon) IN THE PHILIP PULLMAN BOOK.

      (5) I was not attending Heartland Baptist Bible college in Oklahoma City where the girl that she wanted me to marry was also attending.

      So yeah, the “sobbing momma grieving over her reprobate child” is a character that a lot of middle aged fundie women adopt.

  6. I listened; it wasn’t too bad, except that he apparently does not believe that the Holy Spirit must convict a person of sin for them to be saved: if he tells the gospel, and the person doesn’t respond, the person has rejected God. The Bible tells us: To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts

    This implies to me that a student may hear the gospel, but the Holy Spirit may not speak to the student at that time. One of the evangelists of the past used to ask God to show him when the right time to discuss the gospel was… we don’t see too much of that today; it’s become a salesmanship contest, where “salvation” is counted by the number of prayers said.

    I also am not too sure that the hypothetical student is hearing the gospel; perhaps references to it, and/or manipulative techniques to get him to come forward (“if you’re not utterly, completely, really, positively, 105% sure you’re going to heaven, then come forward and get it settled”). But the gospel that transforms a life isn’t heard much. Chapel messages usually don’t talk about the gospel, and many churches don’t, either. Some IFB churches brag about this; that it is the MOG’s job to keep the people going, and it is the people’s job to present the gospel to everyone, so they “preach” messages that beat up the people to not quit and to keep going, but the actual gospel is rarely heard.

    1. I completely agree with you. I didn’t get truly saved until 7 months ago, even though I grew up in the IFB and went to a Christian school. The Gospel message is not truly proclaimed, so I had never heard the true Gospel until about a year ago. I guess I am proof that what he said here is completely wrong.

    1. Dear Big Gary:

      Alas — one suspects this is so all too often! And those who trumpet the ‘gospel’ loudest seem often to know it least.

      Christian Socialist

    2. This. How many times did he refer to saved kids as good and unsaved kids are bad. This is works based salvation. It is a false gospel. Speaking out against this is not bitterness. Speaking out against this is standing for the truth.

    3. It’s a shame the author of most of the New Testament wasn’t truly saved isn’t it? You know the guy who was “the chief of sinners” and was always doing what he didn’t want to do, was wretched, and had a body full of death. Too bad…

    1. I think the mural on the wall is there to make people feel comfortable when they pisseth against it.

      “Hey Brother Steve, this toilet is really deep and wide”.

  7. So, Stevie, how do you explain the fact that a large majority of people who live on my street are, by all appearances, unsaved, yet my children are believers?

    Let me add my own proof text. Read two verses down, to Ecc. 10:2–A wise man’s heart is at his right hand; but a fool’s heart at his left.
    Which side of is your heart on? I’ll bet it is on your left.
    Just an observation.

        1. Elizabeth, I think you should engrave this Bible verse on something for your Mom, or maybe sew it on a sampler, or something like that. 🙂

  8. I checked out the church website. Did this come from the “why Christian School is unbiblical and wrong” sermon? I am curious about the “right and wrong dress” but not curious enough to listen to an hour-long sermon.

      1. Dear Steve:

        At 9:55-57, you say:

        ‘You’re not going to tell me that an independent, fundamental Baptist didn’t know the Gospel.’

        Yes, Steve. Plenty of independent, fundamental Baptists don’t know the Gospel. Week after week, they babble Gnostic heresy, never realizing the import of their words.

        Moreover Steve, this happens with such regularity that a case can be made that the IFB movement together is a false teacher.

        Lastly, there may be people who are so well trained in theology that they would turn up heresy in your own teaching. It mightn’t take long either. 60 max. Perhaps 30. Blessings, Steve!

        Christian Socialist

        1. Regarding My Previous Post …

          I should specify that the ’60’ and ’30’ referred to seconds, not minutes.

          Christian Socialist

      2. You know, that man mentions himself and Jack Schaap more than anything else in the entire sermon. This was basically an “I was right” victory dance. How is this in any way edifying to his congregation? How is this bringing his congregation closer to God or challenging them in their own Christian walk in any way? Something is wrong when this is all you hear when you go to church.

        1. Dear formerHACgirl:

          Yeah, that passed my mind as well, as did the fact that he gives us a patchwork of texts from which we are [apparently] to derive a personality profile of a child molester.

          Two more thoughts come to mind.

          1] With the explosive temper, telling people to ‘get the hell out of my church,’ open demonization of a sitting President [cf. Jude 1:10-18], tangles with border guards, etc., I honestly can’t envision this punk’s career ending well.

          2] Please, please tell me that this particular ‘Anderson’ has absolutely nothing to do with Hyles-Anderson college! I know it ain’t so, but I just need to hear it …

          Christian Socialist

        2. He’s not the Anderson that Hyles-Anderson is named for, nor did he attend that college.

          As far as I know, he isn’t related to either the Anderson or the Hyles of the college name.

        3. Wow, you’re right, and I’m wrong. Apparently, Steven Anderson did attend Hyles-Anderson, but did not graduate.

        4. By the way, that’s about the tenth time that web site has crashed my computer. I don’t know why. But there will be no more stevenandersonfamily blog for me.

  9. i went to this guy’s web-page and sure enough like all of these guys-they think they are a grand spectacle to the world. He says that thousands are saved and millions of downloads of his sermons. Well I can see the millions of downloads because everyone likes to watch a train-wreck. It is amazing how these guys think they are special-the most famous Baptist preacher=Jack Schaap? Soon sir you will be the most “famous” with the b.s. that comes out of your mouth.

    1. Sometimes I wonder if these preachers realize how many people who go to their websites and YouTube channels are only there for a laugh.

      Or maybe they count all of them anyway. There are some (endlessly repeated) stories of people who were converted when they went to revival meetings intending to mock them. If that happened once, why not assume it happens millions of times a month? 😉

  10. Dear Steve Anderson:

    1] If no one suggests that all christian school students are in a right relationship with God, why harp on it?

    2] How do you know that this or that child doesn’t know or believe the Gospel? What if said child is waiting for an adult mentor who holds that faith with a sane mind and gracious spirit?

    3] Are you sure that Christian School students have heard the Gospel a thousand times — or even a hundred times. Maybe what they heard was a Gnosticized perversion of the Gospel. Would you know the difference, Steve?

    4] I find Ro 1 to be an extremely complex passsage. Is the descending spiral something that happens individually, or is it a description of how sin works in all humanity? Or is it a Jewish/Gentile thing? Other options exist, and all of them can find some support from Ro 1-3. How do you know that your particular reading of the text is correct?

    5] Have you considered the potential of your screed to create a witch hunt in this school, to find that ‘one’ on whom all can count to create much harm?

    Christian Socialist

  11. Steve’s comment about parents forcing their children to attend Christian school reminds me of parents who forced their children to attend Christian (Fundy) colleges. Wired how the cycle never seems to end.

  12. I must confess that, after all of my life experiences and attendance at several different kinds of churches (Evangelical Free, Nazarene, Eastern Orthodox, LDS), I am completely lost. I don’t mean “headed for hell”, although that might be a distinct possibility in my case. I mean utterly confused and bewildered – lost in that particular sense. I also confess that after seeing several of these videos and articles, I’m even more lost.

    1. What IS the Gospel? I mean, really, if all of these fundamentalist preachers have it wrong, what IS it?

    2. What does it mean to be “saved”? How do you do it? I’ve prayed the Sinner’s Prayer before. It didn’t work, because I never felt any assurance.

    3. What does it mean to be a Christian?

    4. Why all the hatred for other belief systems, even if they happen to fall within the fundamentalist Christian spectrum? Why Hyles vs. Schaap vs. Gothard vs. Anderson vs. Grice? Shouldn’t these “men of God” cooperate?

    5. After all this, I’m not sure I WANT salvation…

    I am one lost chess player.

    1. Wow. Thanks for sharing. I’m not sure a blog is the best forum to address your questions in depth, but let me give it a shot. The gospel is much, much bigger than “getting in” – it is a story that begins with a good creation that has fallen under bondage to sin. The gospel – the good news – is that Jesus Christ came as the messiah. As such, he fulfilled the demands of the law, and broke the power of sin and death. He earned the blessings promised on Mt. Gerizim, and suffered the curses of Mt. Ebal. In so fulfilling the law perfectly, he has taken our just punishment of death and earned for us a place in his kingdom. Even now the Spirit of Christ works in this world, and we look forward to the day when he makes all things new. We are united with Christ by faith – in faith God grants us the righteousness of Christ. Sometimes this faith is expressed through a “sinner’s prayer”, but not always. I express it every week when I recite the Apostles’ Creed and take communion. My assurance doesn’t come from my feelings, but from the forensic nature of my redemption. Christ actually lived a sinless life and died a sinners death for me. I believe that. I don’t always feel like it, but that doesn’t change the facts. It’s kind of like being married. There are days when I don’t feel like my wife is my sweet bride (generally every four weeks or so…), but that doesn’t change the marriage covenant I entered into one bit. Why do I want to be saved, every moment of every day? Not because I want to get out of hell, but because God is so very good, and I want what He wants for this world – forgiveness, peace, love, and justice. I want Him and His kingdom. Anyway, I hope this helps.

    2. We cannot know God unless He chooses to reveal himself to us; fortunately, He has done this in His Word, the Bible. To answer your questions

      1. The Bible defines the gospel as follows: “that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”

      That is the gospel in a concise summary. But it depends upon understanding of the terms and meanings of terms, such as “for our sins”.

      The problem with SOME fundamental churches (mostly those modeled after Jack Hyles) is that have mutated the gospel into a free ticket to heaven, and treat presenting the gospel as trying to sell people this ticket, which they get, they say, by praying a prayer. They minimize the “for our sins” part of the gospel and say it means “no one is perfect”. The truth, according to the Scriptures, is that mankind has, in each individual life, deliberately refused to do what we know is right and have chosen wrong. God is infinite goodness, and mankind has refused to give Him the glory due His name. We have refused to listen to His ways. I am a rebel against God, and want to do my own thing. We must be willing to humble ourselves, and repent of our wrong ways (we must acknowledge that we are wrong and that we want to change).

      2. To be “saved” (a Scriptural term) means to be saved from the power of sin and have the capability to do right and glory the Lord of the ages. The Bible tells us that we are saved when we repent of our ways, and ask God to forgive us and accept us. There is no set, magic prayer; in the Bible, the prayers for salvation are all different. It is a matter of the heart, mind, and soul. It seems unlikely to me that people who have no sense of their sin and merely want to escape judgement are not going to be saved. Salvation, though, is not a matter of how we feel. Romans 10 tells us that if we call upon him in repentance and faith, He WILL forgive us and He WILL save us… even if I lose my mind tomorrow and don’t remember Him, He will remember.

      3. In a strict sense, the word “Christian” means “little Christ” or “imitator of Christ”. In a strict sense, it means those who are trying to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ. In the more general sense, the term is broadly used to describe everyone who is saved.

      4. It’s hard to say why; generally, no human can be completely sure of why another person behaves in such a way. I personally believe that many of these men have achieved some measure of “success”, and have become proud, and don’t want to share the spotlight with anyone else, so they have to pick flaws in others. Sometimes, there are legitimate problems. God tells those who would follow Him that they are to separate from error, and some of these man have taken it to extreme measures.

      5. Salvation isn’t about going to a church, or saying magic words, or, really, even going to heaven. Salvation is becoming at peace with God Almighty, and having a relationship with Him because of Jesus Christ. I have that now, and it is WONDERFUL! I’m hoping you’ll want it, too.

    3. 1. What IS the Gospel? I mean, really, if all of these fundamentalist preachers have it wrong, what IS it?

      The Gospel is the good news that, while no person could do anything to reconcile themselves to God, Jesus Christ fulfilled all of the Father’s requirements of the Law in order to be the acceptable sacrifice required for the payment of sin, in order for him to reconcile, redeem, save the ones his father has given him.

      2.What does it mean to be “saved”? How do you do it? I’ve prayed the Sinner’s Prayer before. It didn’t work, because I never felt any assurance.

      Saved from the weight of the condemnation of God’s perfect law for one. The strength of sin is the law, the law which Jesus Christ fulfilled. Saved from damnation and eternal separation from God for another. Saved to everlasting live with Jesus Christ.

      3. What does it mean to be a Christian?

      It means that one is being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, to be like our savior. We will never perfectly attain Christ-likeness here in this life but one strives to walk with Christ as best one can. The believer is no longer on his/her own but they are (spiritually) in Christ. Belief dictates behavior. We should behave according to what we believe about Christ.

      4. Why all the hatred for other belief systems, even if they happen to fall within the fundamentalist Christian spectrum? Why Hyles vs. Schaap vs. Gothard vs. Anderson vs. Grice? Shouldn’t these “men of God” cooperate?

      Just because someone or something claims to be of God does not mean it or they are. There have been many atrocities committed by folks claiming to be doing the Lord’s work. Yes, there should be great cooperation in the body of believers. Yet position and power corrupts the “ought” and what ”should be” is polluted by the greed, envy, and empirical desires of “leaders.”

      5.After all this, I’m not sure I WANT salvation…

      do you mean the imperfect presentation of the Gospel and the corrupt examples of salvation from some men? Or true Salvation according to the work and will of Jesus Christ?

    4. Shakhmaty,
      I may not be the best to answer these questions, however, by God’s Grace I will try.
      1. What is the Gospel? Here is a link to a 3:34 minute video by John Piper. He is the pastor of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, Minnesota. He explains it well, especially the last 20 seconds or so. http://thegospelcoalition.org/resources/video/What-Is-The-Gospel—John-Piper
      2. What does it mean to be “saved”? Many people only speak of being “saved” when referring to escaping from hell. I believe it is so much more than just escaping hell’s grasp. As Piper touches on at the end of the video, salvation is not just going to Heaven, but it is the ability to spend eternity in the glorified presence of God. It is quite a lengthy book, but if you get a chance to, read a book entitled Heaven. It’s by Randy Alcorn, and it is perhaps the best book I have ever read on Heaven. How do you do it? Growing up I heard many people just do a “1-2-3 pray after me, and presto you’re saved”. It’s not the words you say. I Corinthians 15: 3-4 says it best, “For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.”
      3. What does it mean to be a Christian? I found this great article which will help explain what a Christian is. http://carm.org/christianity/devotions/what-christian
      4. I have taken your 4th question and boiled it down to one small sentence. Why is there not unity among fellow believers? This is a hard question. In Luke 9:46, and 22:24 the disciples were arguing who was to be the greatest. The Apostle Paul addresses it in his letter to the church at Corinth in 1 Corinthians 3. In my opinion men (myself included) desire others approval, and want to make ourselves look good, rather than putting Christ first in our lives. It is only by falling on our faces and repenting of our selfish desires to Christ Jesus that we can live in unity. And it is not just a one-time confession, but daily and if need be minute-by-minute confession.
      5. Please do not let the sins of other people who claim Christ as your reason for not accepting, or continuing your walk with Christ Jesus. I have personally walked away from God because of other people. But I have found that only Christ Jesus is the one who never changes and people always will.

      I hope this helps to clarify some things for you.
      J. Knox

      1. Dear J Knox:

        Speaking only for myself, I wouldn’t start inquirers on Mr. Piper. I think that raises way too many issues!


        Christian Socialist

        1. I understand where you are coming from. Thank you for your feedback. Also, I have enjoyed several of your comments the last few days, and I appreciate your light you have shown on them. Thank you again.

      2. What is the Gospel?

        “For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believes; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.” Romans 1:16……..(my opinion about “the gospel” matters not at all!)

        Who is this salvation for, a select few, or everyone? (My opinion matters not at all)

        1) God our Savior wants ALL men to be saved. (not some) 1 Tim 2:4

        2) Jesus is the true light, that gives light to EVERY man. (not some) John 1:9

        3) Jesus gave Himself a ransom for ALL men. (not some) 1 Timothy 2:6

        4)The Lord is very patient with us, because He wants EVERYONE to come to repentance. (not a select few) 2 Peter 3:9

        5) Jesus, speaking of his crucifixion, said that when he was “lifted up” He would draw ALL men to Himself. (not some) John 12:32

        6)Jesus says ANYONE may CHOOSE to do God’s will. (not just some, and you are given a choice) John 7:17

        7) Jesus said that “these are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you REFUSE to come to me to have life (indicates man’s free will) John 5:40

        8)Jesus wanted to gather Jerusalem together as a hen gathers her chicks, but couldn’t because, “you were not WILLING” (indicates man has a free will) Matthew 23:37

        9)God makes Himself to be “clearly seen” by men so that “men are without excuse.” (demonstrates men willfully reject God) Romans 1:16

        10) Jesus says that His Father loved the world so much that He gave His only son for us, and that all one has to do is BELIEVE on Him for eternal life. (requires an action “belief”, and is available to all)

    5. Might as well give it a go myself:

      1. What IS the Gospel? I mean, really, if all of these fundamentalist preachers have it wrong, what IS it?

      [i]The Gospel is two-fold: what you are saved FROM and what you are saved TO.

      You are saved FROM death, sin, Hell, slavery, weakness, etc because of Christ’s death on the cross. You’ll hear that from a lot of frothy-mouthed preachers and, in theological terms, it would be called penal (for most) substitutionary atonement.

      You are saved TO good works, a life of freedom, everlasting joy, good works (an invitation to be part of what God is doing), eternal life, etc… where God has made us victorious over all evils and death. The grand gospel is that God will restore all things and make a new heaven and a new earth. (Heaven isn’t the end of it all.) We have proof of this by the resurrection of Jesus from death. The theological term for this Christus Victor.

      Both are right. Both are essential. To preach one and not the other is to preach an incomplete gospel.[/i]

      2. What does it mean to be “saved”? How do you do it? I’ve prayed the Sinner’s Prayer before. It didn’t work, because I never felt any assurance.

      3. What does it mean to be a Christian?

      [i]I’ll give the same answer for both of these questions.

      Here is what I told someone else:

      Do you love God and love people? How does that play out in your everyday life? Do you, as a general rule, find yourself striving to be more like Jesus or less? Do you want to be more like Jesus? Are you finding yourself able to trust God more with things and thereby worrying less than you used to? Is the trajectory of your thoughts/fears/dreams focusing more on others than on yourself?[/i]

      4. Why all the hatred for other belief systems, even if they happen to fall within the fundamentalist Christian spectrum? Why Hyles vs. Schaap vs. Gothard vs. Anderson vs. Grice? Shouldn’t these “men of God” cooperate?

      [i]Because people would rather be “right” at the expense of others than be “wrong” to the upliftment of others. It’s a problem as old as Christianity. It was also THE major concern for Jesus in His final prayer regarding believers.[/i]

      5. After all this, I’m not sure I WANT salvation…

      [i]Once you understand it, you will not want anything more (or less) than “salvation”.[/i]

    6. Dear Shakhmaty:

      Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist spoke of ‘a place in his kingdom.’ As I see it, that’s the deal. It’s about ‘kingdom.’

      Kingdom means a king.
      The king’s word is law.

      But we are lawbreakers,
      aliens within his realm.

      So we are judged guilty.
      Our sentence is death.

      But this king is great!
      gracious and merciful!
      slow to anger,
      swift to bless!

      The king made a Proclamation:
      FULL AMNESTY and Citizenship!

      Believe the proclamation!
      Bow before the great king.
      Thank him for your pardon.

      Welcome to God’s kingdom!
      There is much more to know.
      But this is where you begin.

      And there’s more.

      The king gives you his Spirit
      The king gives you his word.
      These are your guide in life.
      Use them! Know the king well.

      Jesus is our King. And now?

      Find other kingdom citizens.
      Celebrate life with them!
      Feast at the king’s table!
      Live in the joy of his comfort!

      Thank you so much for your inquiry. God bless you, my friend!

      Christian Socialist

        1. Dear Shakhmaty:

          Thank you so much!

          Other replies offer plenty of sources; so I won’t add none of my own.

          If I could offer but one word of council, it would be to look to the King! Learn the kings ways, and walk in the light and warmth of his face!

          Sure, we’ve got boatloads to learn. We’ll be the rest of our lives learning it. But on our way, let us never lose sight of the king!

          Meanwhile, let’s walk together!

          Blessings, my friend!

          Christian Socialist

      1. I guess what I’m afraid of is all of the “little boxes” that Christians are supposed to fit into. I have never fit in ANYWHERE in my LIFE, and I’m sort of glad because the boxes scare me. Also, each one of the boxes I’ve heard of has a base even more common than than belief in Christ, and that’s belief in hell. Everlasting perdition for unbelievers…

        *shudder* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONEYGU_7EqU

        1. I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “little boxes”; there is a wonderful and refreshing freedom in Jesus Christ; I am freed from the power of the sin that warps me, and free to be truly me.

          Generally, it is mankind that tries to fit people into “little boxes” (if that means what I think it does).

          Jesus Christ expects you to be His disciple and learn of Him; there are things His followers are supposed to do, but His commandments are not grievous.

        2. I know that people have said a lot, but I’d like to leave this little note. A small little book called “Jesus With Dirty Feet”. The author tries to reveal Jesus just as he is, without the different or conflicting ideas.
          Somebody real that one can relate to. Somebody who walked on earth and got dirty feet.

        3. My mom always likes to remember that Jesus probably smelled of sweat sometimes. The Middle East is hot. Will look into that book.

        4. Guilt Ridden,

          By “little boxes”, I mean those that other Christian people tried to put me into, when I wasn’t sure how their “commandments” related to Jesus’ teachings.

          Real Christians…wear dresses if they’re women.
          Real Christians…tithe, no matter how poor.
          Real Christians…never miss church even if ill.
          Real Christians…pray at restaurants to witness.
          Real Christians…give out tracts.
          Real Christians…obey, and never question.
          Real Christians…almost worship the Holy Bible.
          Real Christians…don’t frequent sinners’ haunts.
          Real Christian women…consider males their head.

          Ad nauseam!

          Glad to clarify,

        5. Shakhmaty: Try a “main-line” church. For example, ours:

          1. Nobody else’s business what you wear as long as you aren’t naked and you don’t smell. (And if you work a smelly job we will give you a pass on the smell.)

          2. Nobody else’s business how much you tithe, if it’s in kind or in cash, and whether you tithe at all. The budget is read out at the annual meeting and then people talk about ways to meet it, which may or may not include personal tithing.

          3. Please DON’T come to church sick. Our members in frail health will thank you!

          4. Pray in public if you want, but not as a witness. Remember the pharisee and the publican.

          5. Tracts are an abomination and a plague. If you want to know more about what we teach, we have classes and a library.

          6. Unquestioning obedience has no place in a faith founded on an older faith that was founded upon argument. Seriously, have you read how many times in the OT people go and argue with God Himself?

          7. Talking about the holiness and infallibility of the Bible is like staring at a footprint instead of looking to see where the track leads.

          8. Our old priest used to go to the bar. Not with tracts. With money for beer. He talked religion with the guys at the bar because that was where they were and they spent a lot of time talking religion anyway, so why not talk it with a genuine cleric?

          9. Considering that Jesus specifically said that marriage was for this side of the Veil and spent a lot of his time talking to women with no headship in sight, I don’t think patriarchy has much to do with Christ.

          Come on over to the lukewarm, wishy-washy, worldly side. We do great potlucks.

        6. “Talking about the holiness and infallibility of the Bible is like staring at a footprint instead of looking to see where the track leads.”

          I am so stealing this line. 🙂

    7. Dear Shakhmaty,

      Thank you for sharing your heartfelt post. Your openness is refreshing.

      IMO, if you want to grow in your understanding of God, if you are a learner and desire to build a robust theology, if you want to “get” the gospel, I would humbly point you towards “Reformed Theology.”

      The Reformers (Calvin, Luther, etc) had a high view of God, a low view of man, and were refreshingly Christ-centered.

      Tim Keller’s and Tullian Tchividjian’s podcasts are a great place to start. RC Sproul’s podcast is also great. If you are looking for a little more depth, there is a fantastic podcast called “White Horse Inn” where four guys sit around and talk theology – that one is lights out. As far as books go, check this one out: http://tinyurl.com/8dr253b.

      Reformed theology is a gospel-centric theology, so once you start to understand what it is all about, once you understand the basics of the system, the gospel will likely become much clearer to you.

      Grace to you on your journey.

      1. I would second those recommendations. I would also recommend Matt Chandler, CS Lewis (not Reformed, but excellent), NT Wright (he can get pretty heavy), and John Stott.

        1. Two caveats re Lewis:

          1. He falls into the common trap of taking the description of the effects of sin on the relationship between men and women as a prescription; and

          2. Having apparently been in robust mental health his whole life, and at a time when mental illness was less commonly spoken of, he sometimes mistakes mental illness for the sin of sloth.

      1. The Episcopal Church, http://www.episcopalchurch.org. Look up the congregation nearest to you on their site. If you visit, ask if the local congregation does Education for Ministry, which, despite the name, is an adult survey course in Bible study, Church history, and theology. It’s a good way to relearn your Bible without the fundamentalist filter.

        Some local congregations have fundamentalist leanings and there was recently a big brangle about an openly gay bishop. But I have never heard of an Episcopal priest shouting and spraying spittle, disguising their insults to their own parishioners as hypothetical cases of bad behavior in sermons, refusing to allow anybody to see the parish accounts, etc.

  13. My hubs was forced into fundie Christian school, and miraculously he survived with only a little PTSD, seriously, and we will soon be working as missionaries in Haiti. Don’t worry, he’s been incredibly shunned by his fundie family, since we left fundystan years ago. What kind of family views the missionaries as the “black sheep”? Oh yeah, I remember now-Fundies. As for me, I went to public school, so I didn’t stand a chance in the world of making it in Fundieville.

    1. i know those type of families well… they are the ones i had to give a defense of my Christianity when i went to Promise Keepers-a group that teaches men to love their children and wives. my faith was also in question when i didn’t clean my room at my fundie u-i had a heart or bitter issue because my bed was not made. i also got pulled in to defend going to an unapproved church!?! it is crazy town; i just wish i projected the attacks back on them instead of thinking there was something wrong with me-but hey now i know i am not the issue although clearly i have issues 😉

      1. Oh dude, speaking of fundy schools and room-cleaning, this year in (normal-person) university I’m taking an Intro to Religious Studies humanities class. The prof told us the most depressing thing – he was basically explaining his background, and how he used to be a Christian. He grew up very Christian. Then he went to Bible college. And he was so careful to follow the rules and so proud of himself for being an adult.
        And one rule was that you had to keep your laundry clean. So he washed all his, diligently, but he wanted to save some money, so he laid it out to dry the last few minutes. Well, he had it out to dry when the Bible college’s “room inspectors” came in: they marked him as failing to do his laundry, and he got in trouble.
        That, that little thing, was indicative of their entire attitude. Of their entire unreasonable, unfair, judging, infantilising attitude. He said that this little thing, right here, was what made him start to go, “F*** you guys!”
        That depressed the crap out of me. Good one, fundy school.

        1. In the name of the Gospel, they act like Pharisees. Jesus showed that NO ONE WINS under the law, yet fundy college is run by law and not by mercy. (Not that I’m against rules; I’m against the narrow, antagonistic, accusatory nature of the enforcement of those rules.)

        2. Dear ShrimpCanuck:

          This may be a Mk 4:5-6; 16-17 ‘rocky ground’ gambit. Many have died for their faith. How much heat does a flunked room inspection generate?

          Still, Pastor’s Wife is entirely correct to point to the larger mentality surrounding the experience.

          Christian Socialist

    2. “What kind of family views the missionaries as the “black sheep”? ”

      That made me laugh – that’s me and my wife totally. Not only did we prove we were liberal by joining with a non-denominational organization, but since returning to the US we’ve been attending a Lutheran church. We are definitely the black sheep. 😎

      1. Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. My parents cop out of this issue by simply decreeing by parental fiat that all non-fundie churches are “not Christian.”

        (See, the problem is that parental fiat only worked when they could beat us into submission. Not so much anymore!!)

  14. When I taught in fundy schools, I remember going to an “educational” convention where we were told that we were failures if every kid didn’t “get saved” before they graduated. Now that I know that we turned them all gay too, I’m heartbroken. :mrgreen:

  15. Yup. Steve Anderson’s crazy. These kids have heard the gospel thousands of times — from people who yell at them, tell them how horrible they are, and abuse them.

    The kids look to see if the gospel really does change peoples’ lives. All they find is the same kind of hate. Oh, they love each other (just like Pharisees do). But let someone have a different opinion and they freeze them out. To be a saved fundy you must be poured into a mold, sacrifice thinking, believe everything the Pastor says, worship at his feet and mouth the same bigoted and hateful words. All the while telling people that God loves them.

    Fundamentalism sounds good to those who are steeped in it. It is easy to use ranting, proof texts, and villainization of others to make you feel superior to others. But people are watching. There are good reasons why the words “fundamentalists” and “hypocrites” go together.

    I came to Christ as a teenager. But I cannot see much in Christian fundamentalism today of any worth. Given their examples, I would reject their offer of salvation, saying it clearly didn’t work on them!

  16. Somehow it seems they wish to take the place of the Holy Spirit to “get’em into the kingdom” by scare tactics and manipulation. Forgetting that Christ lovingly draws us not through force, but through the simplicity of the Gospel. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:44

    1. It is so simple really: Salvation is of God

      But many Fundies are impatient and feel God does not move fast enough to keep up the numbers for their annual growth projections. And what good is a Fundy church (or pastor) if they can not show consistent growth? “A healthy church is a growing church, Amen?” 🙄

      Where would G-d be without them? 🙄

      1. All ages. And remember, in an over/under proposition, you don’t need an exact number, just over or under the line.

        Although with all the early money coming in at over, I might have to bump up the line to 14 & 1/2. :mrgreen:

        1. True. Though if you’re betting the under you can always amend the number later by adding a clarifying phrase of “over/under does not include family”. I’m sure that would get you under 12 and 1/2. 😀

        2. LOL. I was actually thinking of adding a second line of over/under non-family members. Then it would be WAY under 12 & 1/2.

    1. I think Anderson’s family comprises most or all of his church’s membership.

      Which sort of puts him in a category with Fred Phelps. Not that they agree with each other, but their “ministries” are similar in size.

  17. Who is he to determine if someone is a reprobate or not? Growing up, I heard a lot of bible even though I wasn’t raised in a xian home or raised in church. I was a very wicked person. A lot people didn’t think God would ever save me. They were wrong. God rescued me.

  18. Thank you all for your thorough responses to my questions about the Gospel and being saved! I want to continue my research into fundamentalism as I seek answers. By the way, what is a “Pelagian”? I’ve never heard that term before, even in my former fundamentalist churches.

      1. In marine biology, pelagic animals are those that swim or float around freely (as opposed to being attached to something (sessile) or staying on or near the bottom (benthic).

        Pelagian theology has little or nothing to do with that, though.

    1. On a blog where we are discussing a crazy preacher’s ranting, I find it ironic that your sincere question about salvation and the gospel was met with many recomendations to read books and watch programs by men! Men may say anything! As we can clearly see from this lunatic, albeit very sincere man!

      Ask God for guidance and wisdom, He tells us to do just that, then pick up His word and dig in!

        1. I’m giving advice to only seek God through His Word and Spirit, not go browsing through Piper’s or some other simpleton’s book!

          You must be bored! But I suppose you pre-selects have alot of times on your hands! 😎

        2. I was unaware of the tradition that taught that Paul et al were deified after writing Scripture. 😉

          Greg – please tell me more about this belief….

        3. Happy to explain myself. 😀

          No Paul wasn’t deified. But he WAS one of the HOLY MEN of God that spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit, so I consider Paul’s words to have and carry the same weight as words spoken by God or Jesus. I condider the words spoken by Paul to be Holy Scripture! This belief, as the calvinists love to say, is a very orthodox position.

          You certainly don’t have to agree though.

        4. Greg,

          By your logic, are you suggesting that none of us should attend church tomorrow and hear the Scriptures interpreted by a mere mortal? Couldn’t you agree that God has gifted some men to teach the Word and feed His flock?

          Don is right when he says that you are headed down a dangerous road. To not seek guidance from 2000 years of church history, from mentors, from pastors, and from prayerful and skilled theologians is dangerous and clumsy.

        5. God has certainly gifted men to teach His word. I don’t deny that.

          But no matter their gifts, they are men! I continue to be amazed that you guys place such faith and trust in men.

          For instance, if I agreed with your theolgy, and was considered to be gifted in teaching, I would have to reject this near-worship that you heap on mere men, it simply isn’t healthy for a deep spiritual life!

        6. *sigh* indeed. Oh, greg, how I wish I had YOUR deep spiritual life. Oops…did I just slip into man-worship there?

      1. Peter tells us that it is not wise to make your own private interpretation of scripture but to examine scripture in the open, to publicly remember what the eyewitnesses have declared of Christ. Paul tells us very clearly: ”what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.” greg, your “go-it-alone” attitude is dangerous, and many a cult have begun by not listening to men who have devoted their lives to the study of scripture. The ditches are deep on that road of individual interpretations.

        2 Peter 1:16-2:3
        For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For when he received honor and glory from God the Father, and the voice was borne to him by the Majestic Glory, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased,” we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain. And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts, knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
        But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

        1. I tend to remind people that there are no new heresies, just old heresies with new names. One of the benefits of looking at saints past is that they have examined these issues and we can reflect on and build upon what we can learn from them. And I say this as a Solo Scriptura guy. 😉

          Greg seems to be implying that the Spirit stopped speaking to people after the writing of the Scriptures. Very odd since he says we should listen to said Spirit later: a bit double-minded, that one. Of course what he is saying is not only illogical using general reasoning but it also directly contradicts what Scripture (as the recorded words of God Jesus say about the role of the Spirit).

        2. It really gets scary when one claims that only what is reveald to them is valid. That approach to scripture only produces little individual islands of gnosticism.

        3. I am not opposed to men teaching others, but surely you know that we are to be aware of false teachers. We are warned over and over to watch out for such false teachers and prophets. We are told that if someone preaches a gospel other than what “we preached to you, let him be eternally concemned” (NIV) accursed (KJV) Think of the Bereans that tore through every teaching with a fine tooth comb, with the word of God(they were commended for doing so) to make sure they were receiving the truth. And lastly, how about Paul Himself having to jump all over Peter for acting like a hypocrite, according to the Scriptures.

          I’ll bet more false theologies have been supported because of simple men confirming other simple men’s false beliefs, than men picking up the word of God and comparing scripture w/scripture, to see if those things which were spoken by men were true.

          If I had asked the question that Shakhmaty asked, my answer of following God and His word, would have been the one that I could have put the most trust in, instead of reading some simple man’s opinion regarding the questions asked!

          Men may say anthing!

        4. What is even more scary is when someone has become so enamored of some man-made theology, that when faced with insurmountable scriptural evidence contrary to that theology, they continue to hold to the filthy rags of some long-ago dead man’s philoshpy, as though it were the truth.

          It’s actually more sad than scary!

        5. greg, you bring up the Bereans? (plural) Men teaching and studying with other men? Yet you advocate the Chuch Norris approach to Bible Study, the rugged individualist who pulls himself up by his spiritual bootstraps because he is a Lone Wolf.

        6. I find myself in the peculiar position of having my idea of scripture only, turned into being me being a monk and not fellowshipping or learning from anyone! I have never posited that, here or anywhere else. Jesus sent the Apostles out by two, Paul often journeyed with others on his missionary trips, the bible tells us “where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them” But I am never told to believe or follow any man blindly, and accept HIS interpretation of the Scriptures, quite the opposite!

          “Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.” 2 Pet 1:20-21

          God expects EVERYONE to study “study to show thyself approved unto God”… His word for themselves, not jump on John’s philosphy, and run with whatever he says! This seems so obvious, I think you are well aware of all of this.

          Look at Paul’s instruction to the Corinthians/1 Cor 14:33

          “Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should WEIGH carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop (in the case of Mr Anderson, I can imagine he would be stopped often) For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets. For God is not a God of disorder but of peace.”

          That type of service would be fantastic if done in church’s today. Let me just say were I in a service and the speaker tried to tell the folks that “Well I got good news and bad news, The good news? Christ died for some of you!! The bad news, well that should be obvious” Let me tell you that speaker is going to be STOPPED!!

        7. So greg –

          What if someone is a determinist AND a Christian universalist? Seems like your “argument” might lose some of its legs then…

        8. Ronnie – “MY” arguments mean nothing!

          You will get it sooner or later, the only thing that matters is “what thus saith the Lord!”

          My opinion about what those Scriptures mean, does not matter. It’s men putting faith in other men’s opinions about the scriptures is how we have come up with the man-made philosphy of calvinism.

        9. Greg, you keep saying that your opinion doesn’t matter, but then tell anyone with a different opinion or interpretation that they are wrong. God put hard things into His word that many great Christian Scholars disagree on.

          Solomon many years ago, under God’s inspiration, told us that there is nothing new under the sun. So then even your exalted interpretations are likely already in ink elsewhere. That makes you a man follower by your own logic.

          After perusing many of your ponderings, I must ask a question. Why must every true believer worship and believe the exact same way that you do?

    2. It may be 2:20 AM where I’m at, and maybe that’s why I’m having trouble following the new developments in this thread. Then again, maybe I’m still confused! :\

      Sola Scriptura? Deifying Paul? Hmmm…*yep, still lost*

      1. You’ll notice that a few people here will turn any discussion about theology into an arguement here. When it gets like that, it can get difficult to understand. 😉

    3. petrushka1611,

      Are you Russian, or do you speak Russian? I ask because I do, and “Petrushka” means “little Peter” – named after one of Christ’s twelve apostles. 🙂

    1. I didn’t watch the video, but did he really label someone, a TEENAGER (even a hypothetical one), a lost cause? How dare he? Who is he to deny the power of the Spirit and to put a time-limit on the will of God?

    1. Zsuzsana Anderson is quite a piece of work in her own right.
      She reminds me of the 80s satire group, Ladies Against Women. Some of them dressed in cheerleader uniforms and led chants of “Push us back! Push us back! Waa-a-a-a-a-ay back!”

  19. This is stupidity. I personally know someone who would qualify as a “reprobate” according to Steve, who is now studying to be a youth pastor and is a trophy of grace. Steve should check into the life of Adonirum Judson.

    1. I wonder if Anderson knows the background of many of the writers of Scripture. I also wonder where in Scripture he finds how to decide who is and who isn’t worthy of His Grace.

  20. Really? A kid at Christian school is guaranteed to hear the Gospel that often? I heard about missionaries a lot. In chapel I heard about sin a lot. In bible class I heard moralized bible stories a lot and cautionary tales, I heard about paddling a lot, I heard about skirt length a lot but what I did not hear “Hundreds” much less thousands of times was the Gospel. Sorry but even that assumption is false. They hammered hard about keeping in step so much that Gospel grace never even made sense. I think many kids know they don’t fit the code and aren’t shown much less told the real Gospel in Christian school. It was simply a hothouse for sheltering your “good” kids from the “bad” ones and rules not Gospel are generally what they used to shape you. And LAW will definitely make sin abound.

    1. Forgot to add that for many parents Christian school was simply the first step into a cloistered Christian world and preparing kids for associated universities not living in the world as a Christian .I wasn’t even taught critical thinking! Maybe this trend is waning, back then there was no internet so kids could be strategically sheltered. There are more options today for Christian schools, different denominations I’d consider better, but the kind he is talking about are hardly Gospel-Centric.

      1. 1. I think Anderson’s objection to Christian schools is that they are not cloistered enough. His children are home-schooled by his very obedient wife.

        2. Most Fundies are opposed to critical thinking. They even say so. The Fundamentalist majority on the Texas state school board had “Critical Thinking” removed from the state curriculum standards not long ago.

        1. They removed critical thinking from the school goals??? What are they thinking?? As an educator, this terrifies me! If we do not teach critical thinking skills, we are setting the kids up to fail at the university level.
          At my Christian school recently (last few weeks), I had a test that was mostly geared toward critical thinking. I basically made the kids take what they had learned in chem lab and apply it to a hypothetical situation on a test. I got called into the office to defend that question on the test, because it wasn’t “in the Bob Jones textbook”. It really makes me crack up laughing sometimes, and not in the good way.
          As a product of cloistered homeschooling myself, I had no idea how to critical think when I got to college. I actually had to take a remedial course designed to boost my critical thinking skills, because they are so desperately needed in nursing.
          The lack of critical thinking normally taught in a Christian school is just scary, as we are basically breeding the kids to head straight to the further-indoctrinating Fundy U. Thus ends my rant. 🙂

        2. Dear FormerHACgirl:

          As a former educator, it is my opinion that concerted efforts are made to remove critical thinking skills not only from Christian Day School but from public school curricula as well.

          This is done on the premise that uneducated people will be ill-equipped to formulate serious rebuttals to the policies of industry and state, let alone develop viable alternatives to them.

          At the same time schools are slated for closure across the nation, that voices begin speaking here and there for modifying/rescinding child labor laws.

          Of course this is purely coincidental.

          However as an emerging third world nation, we should likely expect not less of this but more.

          Christian Socialist

        3. Dear Christian Socialist:
          “Emerging third-world nation”. That about sums up the situation. Thank you for putting it so succinctly, I am stealing that. And we wonder why so many in the world look down on America.

    2. Thank you for confirming what I thought (and posted earlier) that Christians schools rarely present the gospel — what you wrote is my understanding of how Christian schools work.

      As far as the critical thinking, I don’t believe that all fundamental schools are opposed to it, but they do think that one should learn obedience first, and then critical thinking.

      1. Went back and read your posts, went on tirade before conferring, and I concur with all of them. Talk about avoiding sin, obedience, etc. is not the Gospel. I hardly heard about Jesus. We certainly didn’t hear about Him conquering anything. One chapel message the Pastor held up a white paper then dotted it with black in for sins and all I remember is he started yelling so hard that his face looked like a red hot candy. They focused so much more on sin than the Savior. Or as some would say the put out all the imperatives without any indicatives. Tragic. And worse, they weren’t perfect themselves and we all knew it.

  21. What a sad, sad, angry man. Whenever I hear yelling from the pulpit, it makes me wonder whether the ‘preacher’ is hiding from, or running from his own dark secrets…

  22. So, students who persistently see through bullshit…become gay criminals. Because god makes them that way as a punishment.

    Which means gay people and criminals are more intelligent and emotionally stronger than christians.

    And trying to convert them is therefore against god’s will.

  23. I had Bro. Anderson up to preach a revival for me last year. It went really well and he is a good brother. The only part that I didn’t like was when I took him to the Hometown Buffet and some Border Patrol agents came in. He started screaming at them and had to be removed from the premises by security. I am not sure what caused that reaction.

    I highly recommend Bro. Anderson’s preaching and his ministtry. It wouldn’t hurt you heathens on this site to listen to what he has to say instead of just making fun of him. If you listened to him you might learn something.

Leave a Reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.