Trial By Fire (Bob Gray cries “Persecution!”)

Bob Gray (Texas) has a new book out exploring the trials and tribulations endured by Independent Baptists. Oh, how they suffer.

Topics covered include: “Satan’s Attack on Pastoral Authority”, “Satan’s Attack Using Calvinism”, and and that ever present question: “Why Do Adult Children Rebel?” To that last perhaps not thinking of them as “adult children” and just calling them “adults” might be helpful.

Disappointingly, the only way to get your hands on this literary masterpiece right now is to direct order it from Bob himself. However, Christmas is coming up and I’m hopeful that one of these may find its way into my fireplace stocking. I can’t wait to see if there are any veiled references to SFL in its pages.

171 thoughts on “Trial By Fire (Bob Gray cries “Persecution!”)”

  1. I can’t wait to read this as well. I really interested in the pastoral authority bit, you know, how the pastor has the power to make the rape victim apologize to the congregation for getting raped……

  2. Bob is retreating into books because when he posts his views on the internet, he invariably gets thrashed, both by believers and non-believers. I had a three-day cross fire with him, blog to blog, which demonstrated (with rather startling effectiveness) that Bob Gray could NOT actually use the Bible, at all, as a resource in his discussions.

    He proved himself to be completely illiterate in terms of the text of Scripture. All he could do was quote the Romans Road at me and tell me to get saved (as arguing with him, apparently, was damning proof that I did not know Christ). Atheist Bruce Gerenscer also had a field day picking apart Bob’s wild and man-centered declarations.

    1. BTW, also explains why he will not release it to Amazon.com. He cannot control the review process, and in short order there would be sufficient reviews in place on Amazon to show how truly ignorant and heretical he is.

        1. I don’t believe in posting reviews of books I haven’t read, and I have better things to do than read THAT book … like, oh, organize my dust bunny collection, for example.

        2. I can’t start the dust bunny organization project because I have yet to finish categorizing my belly button lint. Also might have to do some ear wax sculptures first…we’ll see how the spirit leads.

      1. I do think, based on the “Bob Gray Shoot-out” that I had with Bob last year (2012) in October, that he is a lot more aware of Jocelyn Zichterman and me than he is of SFL. (He named us a couple times.) I have been blaming him for the Russ Hirner case for years. I think Bob remembers me from all the way back to the early days of Don Elbourne’s FFF, and Jocelyn was a national news figure identifying the IFB by name as an abusive religious cult.

        Bob’s pragmatic mind can decode such direct attacks as a danger to his comfy life. But I doubt that he “gets” SFL. Frankly I think the parody and discussions here are just a little too over his head and the heads of his congregation. His church has dwindled. Only the stupidest and most stalwart are left to him.

        1. I wonder if he also mentioned Coyote/James Spurgeon (author of Tales From the Baptist Crucible)…Oh boy, did he hate James.

        2. Used To Be Fundy, at some point a few years ago, I saw Bob make a sideways reference to Coyote. Didn’t name him, but talked about a young man who had criticized his ministry who had gone off the rails and was out of the ministry, yadda yadda yadda.

    2. Bass, I just read the posts in your “shoot-out” with Gray. It’s sickening to see how immature, childish and utterly pathetic his writings were. You’d think that a man who dares to call himself a Doctor of anything would be capable of presenting a more coherent argument.

      You also impressed me with your self control and logic. Good on ya.

        1. I just skimmed a bit of that. It gave me a fit of schadenfreude-induced giggles to see that:

          1. “Dr.” Bob Gray, Sr. (as he styles himself), “author of 33 books,” by his own count, is semi-illiterate. His spelling and grammar errors are legion, and some of his sentences just don’t cobble together any meaning at all. 😐

          2. He calls you out by name and says you’re a “demonette.” If I were you, Bass, I’d have the title “Demonette” on my business cards or at least on a T-shirt or a vanity license plate. Demonette! That probably shouldn’t make me laugh as much as it does. 😆

  3. It was clever and sneaky of Satan to invent Calvinism several centuries before the IFB movement. That way Satan had Calvinism in place and ready to discredit the fundy church as soon as it popped on the scene.

    1. How about someone letting your fries get nice and cold before you eat them? 🙁 Few things are more dispiriting than a stone-cold french fry, esp when you’ve been waiting all day to eat them, and can smell yummy, crispy hot ones being made (that you can’t have?) 😛

    2. Anytime things don’t go their way, it’s persecution. Never mind that they are being called out for being douchewads when people (justly) criticize their actions. And the rain falls on the just and unjust, we all miss busses, get cold french fries, have cars that won’t start, the store be out of our brand of cereal… ect ad nauseum.

    3. Exactly.
      The IFB churches and their self-appointed leaders are not suffering from anything other than their own narcissism, bad theology, and general foolishness.
      Period.

      1. Big Gary – let’s not put Mr Reagan in the same stratosphere as Bob Gray, Jack Hyles, or any other fundy MOG. My first name is actually Ron(ald) and if my first child would have been a girl, we were going to name her Reagan. 😀

  4. I think the IFB is doing a pretty good job of attacking themselves; they don’t need any help. I noticed a lot of people in that realm believe they have authority over their children until they die. Kinda kills that whole thing about leaving your Mom and Dad and cleaving to your wife.

      1. I am talking from experience. I was told your parents have authority until you get married, even though I was a NCO in the USAF (not that I took that seriously). You have your kids for maybe 18 yrs, at some point you are going to have to trust you did a good job and that the Lord will guide them the rest of the way.

        1. I should clarify: took “them” not “that” seriously. I take the AF seriously 😆

        2. Thanks, George, for eating most of my comment!! @MCD I was told – and believed – the same thing. Sadly, if my parents would’ve told me to break up with my now-husband, I would’ve done it. They had “veto power”, after all. I’ve seen that mindset cripple otherwise intelligent young adults. They can’t make a decision without first consulting an “authority”.
          Also thank you for your service!

  5. I can’t wait to see what the Pastor has to say about Pastoral Authority so I will know how to feel about it as well. Ohhh Santa, please… Oops!!! I forgot I wasn’t supposed to let on that I am on speaking terms with Santa now.

  6. Statement: “the only way to get your hands on this literary masterpiece right now is to direct order it from Bob himself.”

    Translation: “even the Christian publishing houses didn’t want anything to do with this piece of crap.”

  7. What is up with these guys and pastoral authority? They seem to insist that they have Carte blanche authority over all and everything in their little kingdoms.

    Also, what’s up with all the Bob Grays running around? What, if your name is Bob Gray you have to be a flaming fundamental, authoritarian, imperial, arrogant, aloof, Mog with nothing better to do than to lord it over the people and demand obedience?

    The self-importance is astounding.

    1. The other Bob Gray has been food for worms for a few years, but I love how Darrell (and we, really) still have to make a distinction between them when this one writes a new book.

      I guess you just never know… :mrgreen:

    2. Its ironic that the IFB pastors always condemn denominations for all the authority the denomination has and the structured ordination processes. They complain the pope has too much power and authority. The IFB professes the ability of the lay person to read and understand Scripture on their own…..but the MoG is far more powerful than any of the pastors or priests in any other denomination. Its amazing how blind they are to the fact that they are contradicting themselves in this manner.

        1. If our bishop dared try the shenanigans that fundamentalist preachers inflict on their flock three-times-a-week-and-twice-on-Sundays-and-don’t-forget-that-we-know-where-you-shop, he would be out on his ear. And I’m not even talking about the criminal acts!

          Hollering, talking smack about congregation members from the pulpit, claiming the authority to bloviate about everything . . . frankly, these pastors sound like the loud mean drunk at the end of the bar.

  8. Wonder how he reconciles the chapter “It’s Time to Grow Up,” with the chapter “Why do Adult Children Rebel?”

    Maybe if they’re not treated as children into adulthood, they might start to grow up.

  9. “I do not profit from these books. The money proceeds from the sale of these books goes back into the printing and distribution of my books. ”

    Sounds like profiting to me.

  10. “My desire is to keep John Rice, Lee Roberson, Tom Malone, Curtis Hutson, Jack Hyles, Carl Hatch, and other great men alive for our young people”

    Zombie Mogs! Run before you get bitten!

    1. HeeHee! Beware the undead!

      On a serious note though, how sad that his focus are humans, many times quite flawed humans, instead of Jesus. Point your young people to JESUS.

      1. If someone ever decides to do a blog series of the Independent Baptist Hall of Shame; Jack Hyles (along with the Florida Bob Gray; son Dave and son-in-law Jack “Polished Shaft” Schaap) would have to be the first entries; especially if there was a “sexual sin” wing (along with wings for financial shenanigans and doctrinal problems).

  11. Whenever I hear someone invoke Satan, I always think “blame-shifter”. The flesh does not need any help, if something has gone awry spiritually, look no further than the mirror. Satan is one dude. A single entity who at most can bring some pain if allowed by God. There are half an innumerable host of demons under his aegis, but they needed permission even to enter a herd of pigs. I do not fear Satan, I fear my flesh.

    1. Don’t be going and telling fundies what Jesus said about it being what comes out of a person that defiles him, that would mean they personally need the Gospel instead of being able to conveniently blame their corruption on all those pesky outside influences like Satan, Calvinists, Young Restless Reformed bloggers, Harry Potter books, and unnaturally beautiful young wimmenz.

    1. “Christmas is coming up and I’m hopeful that one of these may find its way into my (strikethrough)fireplace(end strikethrough) stocking.”

      This comment alone is worth today’s price of admission. 😀

  12. Why would Satan attack the Independent Fundamental Baptist Movement?

    Jesus himself said,”Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?”

    I dare say that that Satan is the founder and Chief Operating Officer of IFB movement.

  13. It used to be that Fundys were concerned about Catholicism affecting the IFB. Now they are fighting Calvinism. Soon the main enemy will be the SBC, and finally the greatest threat to the IFB will be compromising IFBers.

    1. If you pay close attention to who the IFB exalts and worships you will see that Jesus has become too liberal for them and it is just a matter of time before they start openly attacking Jesus for his non-conformance to IFB ideology.

    2. Have you read any Sword of the Lord installments? Like, ever? Since the early 1960’s, at least, they’ve been attacking Southern Baptists as “liberal” and the devil incarnate.

      1. I agree that some IFBers have always looked at the SBC as a threat/enemy. In the brand of Fundy I grew up in, they were seen more as misguided brethren. But there used to be a lot of railing against Catholicism. These days you rarely hear a peep against Catholicism among Fundys, outside of Chick Publications.

      2. I heard more about SBC and their ‘falling away’ than I did about any other group. I also heard how Baptist Bible Fellowship churches were not really independent.

  14. ♫ To M-O-g be the glory great things he hath done!
    So loved he himself that he wrote us this tome.
    Who yielded His life to the pas-tor-al Call™,
    And opened hi$ ca$h gate, now he’ll $ave us all. ♫

    1. ♫ Praise the Bob, Praise the Bob, Let his bank account rejoice
      Praise the Bob, Praise the Bob, hear only his voice
      Oh come to his altar and increase his sum,
      And give him the glory great things he hast done! ♫

      1. ♫ Bobaloo, bobaloo, bobaloo, bobalooyah!

        PRAISE YE THE BOB!

        Bobaloo, bobaloo, bobaloo, bobalooyah

        PRAISE YE THE BOB!

        Praise ye the Bob, Bobalooyah, Praise ye the Bob, Bobalooyah, Praise ye the Bob, Boballoyah!

        PRAAAISE YEEE THE BOOOOB!♫

        (I couldn’t help myself; it was an inspirational moment. Don has that effect 😐 )

  15. Anyone want to guess what the chapter “Writing Wrongs” might be about? I’m thinking it might be about bloggers writing all sorts of “wrong” things on the internet.

  16. Since I’ve never even heard of Reverend Gray, I was going to abstain from comment. “Better to remain silent and be thought stupid than to open my mouth and remove all doubt,” I always say.

    Be that as it may, I do have one question. What could possibly be in this chapter?

    “Satan’s Use of Repentance”

    How in the Hell (pun intended) could Satan use repentance? Isn’t repentance the very thing that brings us back to God after a dalliance with Satan? How could turning away from sin and returning to God be something that Satan would use?

    Very confused…

    Peace,

    1. Your definition of repentance is correct, however the IFBers that I know, particularly those whose ‘royal lineage’ goes back to Hyles himself decry preaching repentance as a form of works salvation. Or they twist the definition into being exactly the same as faith, i.e. turning from unbelief to belief.

      I had multiple confrontations with my last IFB pastor over this issue precisely. He just would not hear it, and he believed that saying the sinner must repent was putting an un-biblical demand on the sinner to ‘get saved.’

      Guess he/they never read Jesus:
      From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. – Mat 4:17 KJV

      I also loathed the 30 second Romans road spiel. The two seem to go hand in hand.

      1. Which contrasted with my current SBC pastor, who spent the entire message (only 30 minutes long though!) last Sunday on biblical repentance. It’s good to actually hear the Bible preached. 🙂

      2. You said:

        “Your definition of repentance is correct, however the IFBers that I know, particularly those whose ‘royal lineage’ goes back to Hyles himself decry preaching repentance as a form of works salvation. Or they twist the definition into being exactly the same as faith, i.e. turning from unbelief to belief.”

        So then if I am part of an IBF congregation and I’ve been in serious sin, for example embezzling from my employer, and I turn away from that sin, confess and repay the person from whom I have stolen, what would they call that if they would not call it repentance?

        AND…would they not encourage a person to do that? In other words, would they not “preach repentance” to someone who was stealing, or spreading lies, or whatever?

        Thanks, and peace

        1. “So then if I am part of an IBF congregation and I’ve been in serious sin, for example embezzling from my employer, and I turn away from that sin, confess and repay the person from whom I have stolen, what would they call that if they would not call it repentance?

          AND…would they not encourage a person to do that? In other words, would they not “preach repentance” to someone who was stealing, or spreading lies, or whatever?”

          I can’t speak for all, but the pastor at my last fundy church would have called it “getting right.” But you have to understand this “getting right” was entirely optional. If you repeat the prayer you’re gloriously saved! That’s it! There does not need to be a change of life to evidence the work of grace. And when he/they speak of “getting right” it’s all about the person’s own efforts to “cut off” the sin, and separate from sin, instead of having godly sorrow over your failing and turning to Christ for forgiveness/restoration. I’m sure the idea of repaying the offended would never even enter into the equation.

          “So then if I’m sinning and not getting caught I can just keep sinning?”

          It was never put like that and the pastor would often LOUDLY condemn people committing sin. But of course his definition of sin usually went as far as drinking, listen to anything but hymns, or reading non IFB literature.

          It was a strange contrast in the theology. An easy-believism, no repentance form of “salvation” contrasted with a severe works-righteousness method of sanctification. But biblical repentance was nowhere to be found.

        2. “It was a strange contrast in the theology. An easy-believism, no repentance form of “salvation” contrasted with a severe works-righteousness method of sanctification. But biblical repentance was nowhere to be found.”

          One observation and one question.

          Observation: Sounds a tad schizophrenic. On the one hand conformity to Byzintine and sometimes arbitrary rules is strictly enforced, but on the other hand continuing serious sin is is not an obstical to “getting saved,” and Satan can make use of repentance.

          Question: I’m guessing Lent isn’t all that big a deal?

          Peace,

        3. “One observation and one question.

          Observation: Sounds a tad schizophrenic. On the one hand conformity to Byzintine and sometimes arbitrary rules is strictly enforced, but on the other hand continuing serious sin is is not an obstical to “getting saved,” and Satan can make use of repentance.

          Question: I’m guessing Lent isn’t all that big a deal?”

          Theological schizophrenia! Too perfect. I love it! That perfectly describes it.

          “Lent?! What d’ya think we are, Catholick!?”

          While never quite said like that, the above sentence pretty much summarizes the IFB attitude toward Lent or really any liturgical observations.

      3. You said:

        “…he believed that saying the sinner must repent was putting an un-biblical demand on the sinner to ‘get saved.’”

        So then if I’m sinning and not getting caught I can just keep sinning?

        Peace,

  17. “There is nothing new in the tactics of Satan. We are not ignorant of his devices,”

    But we are ignorant of sound hermeneutics and church history and science and sociological issues and psychological issues and relationships and….

    1. We are not ignorant of his devices …in fact in the IFB “we” have adopted many of his devices to use in our Ministry. We use the devices of the devil to combat the devices of the devil… fighting fire with fire.
      And the result is a scorched earth religion that leaves destruction and pain in its wake.

      1. I agree. The fundamentalists often use the same tactics they condemn others of using. They are guilty of the same sins they rail against others for committing…they just do it in the name of KJV Jesus.

        1. ooo.. that could be a new listing in the SFL Lexicon.

          KJVesus: (n)The IFB god created in 1611 for the English speaking people of the world.

      2. “We use the devices of the devil to combat the devices of the devil… fighting fire with fire.”

        Ah…so they’re using television (which according to them is of the Devil) to preach against television, which is of the devil, or so it goes. Did I get that right?

  18. Darrell,
    I hope you have already placed your order for cases of books to give to your staff at SFL.
    I hear that they are a great gift. Why just a few minutes ago I read this: Many pastors are buying a case to give as Christmas gifts to their staff and Sunday school teachers. These will make a great Christmas gifts to your family also. The local bookstore will be the ruin of many a good church. Our people need literature in their homes that will reinforce what their church stands for.
    I believe in your case you could substitute blogger for pastor, since our Fundy lurkers have credited you with Pied Piper like leadership qualities normally reserved for the mog.

  19. “However, Christmas is coming up and I’m hopeful that one of these may find its way into my fireplace stocking.”

    Darryl! You struck through the wrong word!

    In the right place it can provide (temporarily) both heat and light!

  20. Hmmm. The end of the ad says, “GOTTA LOVE THE OLD TIME RELIGION!”

    That’s Religion, as in Sales Pitch, folks! Come get your hellions while they’re hot!

    1. Bobby-boy often uses the catch-phrase, “Gotta love …(blah, blah, whatever)…” as an end-tag in his blog-comments. Just his own cute but pathetic attempt to try to stay hip and relevant.

    1. Praying for @DrJohnNHamblin as he mounts the pulpit at Jersey Shore this a.m. Sorry to miss it. Looking forward to being back in p.m.

      This one had me laughing 😈

        1. I invisioned Hamblin throwing a western saddle up over the pulpit, sinching it down real good, and then commencing to mounting his high horse..er..pulpit.

          He would then do what every Mog does, cattle drive the people to obedience.

  21. I see this guy has a chapter on calvinism. I would highly recommend to everyone you choose not to be a calvinist, of course if calvinism turns out to be true you have no choice, or do you? This is getting very confusion!…………….lol 👿

  22. Hey there, Bobby-boy! Good to see ya again! Remember me, I played at a couple of your fund-raisers a while back… I know you read SFL 😉 . Enjoyed your screaming and verbal manipulation! Hope your boy will learn some of your tricks, too!

    Trial by fire? Do you mean the refining fire of God? As in purified seven times? I didn’t know that that was the work of Satan, but ya learn something new every day, I guess. Do you apply the same principle to the KJV?

    Anyway, good to see ya agin! Keep active in your dotage!

  23. The hatred that the IFB movement has for the doctrines of grace (because labels are necessary in this pluralistic world…..soteriological Calvinism and not the various abberations of it)is astounding. Yet, they claim to be biblicists. Amazing!

  24. Yes! This is just what I wanted. Not.

    Books by fundy pastors fall into a few select categories. You have your exposition (verse-by-verse through the KJV). You have your autobiography/biography (Heroes of the Faith, general back-slapping). You have your regurgitated sermons (often overlapping exposition). This book appears to be a collection of sermons, and I’m pretty sure I’ve heard them all before. Even though Bro. Gray insists that “every generation has to fight its own battles for the cause of Christ,” fundies simply cannot seem to bring themselves to think up some new sermon material.

    Some further chapters:

    “Only Devil-wimin Wear Pants”
    “Why We Worship the KJV”
    “Republican = Christian”
    “How to Preach ‘God Hates Fags’ Without Actually Identifying with Westboro”
    “Spanking Adult Children is God’s Way”
    “How to be Right Every Single Time”
    “A Demon Behind Every Bush: Why the Environmentalist Movement is from the Pits of Hell”
    “33 Proofs that Satan Created the Internet”
    “I’ve Got 99 Problems and that Muslim Obama is the Cause of Every One of Them”
    “Why Anyone Who Contradicts Me is A Tool of Satan”

    1. Some of these titles make a certain loopy sense:
      “Only Devil-wimin Wear Pants”–black leather ones of course, though a black corset is never out of style. :mrgreen:
      “A Demon Behind Every Bush” Actually, that could also apply to certain politicians, if you’re clever enough. 👿 😎
      “33 Proofs that Satan Created the Internet” Most of these involve kittens. Satan DEFINITELY created the Tech Support lines which all end up in India. 😈
      “How to be Right Every Single Time” Every teenage girl in North America has read this. 🙄

      1. ‘“A Demon Behind Every Bush” Actually, that could also apply to certain politicians, if you’re clever enough.’

        Especially given the Fundy assumption that any two words that sound alike must mean the same thing. :mrgreen:

  25. I am glad to see (according to the sub-title) that the IFB draws fire , so the rest of us can live in peace. I think there are a lot of denominations that the devil doesn’t particularly care for.

      1. Yup.
        When you hold a lighter to your own shirt until it goes up in flames, and then yell “Fire, fire!” it’s not what most people mean by a “trial by fire.”

        1. Okay, wasn’t a “Trial by Fire” something like this? You burn the person at the stake. If they live, they are a witch and have to be killed by some other means. If they don’t, well, you can give what’s left of them a Christian burial, if you are so inclined.

  26. I have a feeling more books like this will come out as the man made religion is exposed. These self proclaimed men of God don’t want their abusive authority to go away. But if there is a wave of reform against them, who have God on their side, they do not have a fighting chance to continue to lord over the flock of God. 💡

    1. I’m sure if you wrote him and told him you were an IFB’er who felt under satanic attack and didn’t know why, he would send you a free copy of his latest book entitled “Trial by Fire, Satan’s attack on Independent Baptists”.

    2. Tell him you’re a reviewer for, I don’t know, Holier Than Thou Journal, and ask for a review copy.
      Then send your book review to Darrell so he can share it with us. 😎

    1. The thing is many who claim this are the ones who lit the match to get it started in the first place.

      Starting a fire where there need not be one.
      “Pants on women?” Light it up.
      “Versions other than the KJV?” Bring on the Salamander!
      “Not attending every time the doors are open?” Burn them at the stake!
      “Disagree with the M-O-g?!” dip them in hot oil, then light them up so that others may clearly see how we treat rebels and disobedient followers.

      1. “Disagree with the M-O-g?!” dip them in hot oil, then light them up so that others may clearly see how we treat rebels and disobedient followers.”

        This is what my wife and I experienced first hand (methaphorically-speaking of course) when we left our former-fundy church. The Mog then refers to himself as Job, and we are relegated to every negative character in scripture. Sickening.

  27. Just thought I would share this bit of experience I had recently, after seeing this. I came in contact with this lady on a “Christian” dating website. We both live in East Texas. We eventually talked over the phone. She said she was a former member of LBT, but had converted to SBC. That should have been enough of a red flag right there, but I gave her the benefit of the doubt. Let the circus begin. She rambled on and on of how it is important to have a godly, Christian home, with the man as head, affection, solidarity, etc. Then she asked me all about my interests, ways, traits, mannerisms, etc. She talked about a favorite country song she had been listening to. Asked if i had heard it, which I had not. I was about a couple lying on a bear-skinned rug. She asked what I thought the song meant. Told her I did not know. She said, evidently, ” it must have been referring to them being naked.” Before we ended the conversation, she asked me if I would call her on Christmas, with a Christmas wake-up call. Synopsis: Once a kook, always a kook.

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