87 thoughts on “God & Country (Not Necessarily In That Order)”

  1. Thankfully, this past Sunday’s service at my church included a brief recognition of the veterans. The sermon was about something completely different – certainly not about “returning to the God of our forefathers,” which would be weird, because I don’t want to return to the deists’ and unitarians’ God.

    1. Fundies would possibly live better lives if they did return to deism/unitarianism over fundy cults they are trapped in…

  2. There’s nobody there! I wish this were true in every fundy church and that people were finding freedom instead.

    America is no more a Christian nation that the cat was a skunk in the PepΓ© Le Pew cartoons.

    1. I would imagine they are all sitting in the back. Isn’t that where most Baptists sit? πŸ˜‰

    2. We would seek revival and we would “see God doing great things again”. So what is God doing right now, small stuff? This is one of those sermons where you leave and say ” so what exactly did he saaaaay”?

      1. The fundamentalist god is a tiny little deity who is only as powerful as the fundamentalist himself.

        It’s really sad.

        1. Yes, He needs us oh so much. Poor God, He anxiously awaits mankinds participation each day and hopes that we will help Him out.

        2. But I guess that’s what happens when you actually think you chose salvation and not that Christ chose you. Oops my Calvinism is showing. πŸ˜†

        3. You can absolutely choose Christ or reject Him.

          “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great a salvation?” Hebrews 2:3

          God’s own plain words says emphatically that you can neglect salvation, and the reverse is true, you can accept Him, the entire theme of the new testament is to explain this to a fallen world. Jesus Christ came to planet earth for this very reason “To seek and to save that which was lost”

          Please don’t “neglect” this great salvation.

        4. @Greg. Jesus came to do the work of His Father which was to reconcile God with his elect. At the moment of your regeneration or salvation, if you can choose to resist then that makes God not omnipotent. And if I can choose then can I “unchoose”?
          Which in turn keeps putting salvation in a category that makes it “up to us”. I don’t want to serve a God who leaves it up to me.

          So many thoughts so little time. God’s permissive will versus his decretive will and then the old saying of “prayer changes things”. Does it? Or does it change us. Not saying I have the answers that’s for sure!!


          [walks off muttering under his breath]

        6. hey greg,
          neglect does not imply choose

          If I neglect my car then eventually it will break down and not function as it is supposed to. If I neglect so great a salvation that I have been given then again it will breakdown and cease to be what it is supposed to in my life.

          Keep your proof text in context greg: Who is the audience, what is the passage saying. Christians are the audience and the first verse sums up the passage, “Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it.”

      2. In their minds the “great things” that God is doing would be evidenced by the pews being filled with people eager to hear the words of the Man-o-god. Obviously he needs to get his people “on fire” for God so they will go out soulwinning and bring in those sheeves.
        I am just now realizing why they gave away watermelons and pony rides and other prizes for coming to church. You couldn’t get them there for the MESSAGE!

      3. The sad thing is, I do believe God is doing great things. There is a growing burden for the neglected inner cities. There is a desire for authentic, transparent Christianity. But because the fundamnetalists are hiding in their bunkers, refusing to see ANY good in other Christians over issues like music, they deny that God is working. That’s more than a shame. It’s wrong. To refuse to see God working through others because they exercise liberty in ways fundamentalists are uncomfortable with is such a sad, self-imposed blindness.

        1. Yes, PW, I agree with you. God IS doing great things. He is moving constantly every day. More than I have seen in my lifetime. Whenever I talk to my mom (a uber-fundie) I tend to get really depressed because the ways *I* see God moving SHE sees as the end of our country and freedom and every good thing as we know it. I can’t argue with her about it because she knows what she knows what she knows and ain’t nobody going to tell her otherwise. I just feel sorry for her with such a dismal outlook on everything.

        2. I agree completely with your comment, pastor’s wife! It couldn’t have been said better.

        3. I had to read it several times before I caught the typo. Probably wouldn’t have even noticed it if you hadn’t piqued my curiosity by pointing it out. :mrgreen:

        4. Amen, PW. One of the blessings of leaving IFB was discovering that actually God was alive and well, and very active in the world around me.

  3. I am a 20 yr vetran so I have earned the right to complain. Patriotism has gotten way out of proportion in many IFB churches. They worship America instead of God. I have traveled to many countries and the US is a special place but Americans can be so arrogant overseas to claim some manifest destiny to impose our ways on all we encounter. This was Bin Ladens biggest beef with us. Not defending BL, he was a criminal that deserved to die, but he hated his country being corrupted by America. His motives were wacked and so is is home country of Saudi Arabia.
    As a Christian I am a pilgrim passing through. This is not my home. I can love my country and all that but my loyalty and allegiance are somewhere greater than America. I guess it’s great to appreciate religious freedom but it has gotten way out of balance in some churches.

    1. So America corrupted his country (lol) is that the reason he had a stash of pornography, and treated women like dogs? Get real!

      1. He’s not saying that Bin Laden wasn’t a murdering scumbag or a hypocrite, greg.

        But if you spend 8 seconds watching Jersey Shore or Real Housewives of Atlanta and then imagine that this is what people around the world think America is…it’s not hard to see why they can build a case that the West is a civilization of corruption and wasted virtue.

        And yes, moral outrage by those who enslave women, murder innocent people and behead their enemies is the worst kind of the pot calling the kettle black.

        1. Darrell – I hear you and understand your point, but how you arrived at that conclusion based on Fred’s comment is beyond me, he speaks specifically about “Americans overseas being so arrogant to impose our ways on those we encounter.”

          I would never have arrived at the conclusions that you did based on Fred’s comment. 😯

        2. I extrapolated it from the “country being corrupted” statement.

          If all Americans were exporting was a love of freedom and justice and general good moral qualities then I doubt fred would be taking issue with it.

  4. It is so much easier to point the finger at liberals, homosexuals, Obama, and left wing universities than to confront our own sinful state; doing so is nothing more than a pride filled diversion tactic.

    What’s wrong with America? I am. We (Christ followers) are. That preacher is.

    WE need the gospel. That preacher needs the gospel. I need the gospel – everyday.

    However, I guess, to some people, it is more fun to shred and tear down society than it is to exposit Scripture, humbly worship the Lord, and own their sin.

    1. Amen. on 9/11 I began a practice of repentance and sought to change the way I live because of my pride and sin. That process continues to this current time.

      1. Yep. He was studying at Tennessee Temple. He and his wife were one of the few bright spots in my early adolescent years.

        1. I wish MY old youth pastor would start a blog like this. But he is quite busy doing CPR on a college that clearly died years ago.

  5. *Singing softly*

    Oh how he needs you and me
    Oh how he needs you and me
    He gave his life, there’s nothing else he can do.

    Oh how he needs you, Oh how he needs me
    Oh how he needs you and me.

  6. Of course America is God’s chosen instrument. That is why our church in Costa Rica sent missionaries to New York City.

    There is more lost souls in any one block of NYC than in all the jungles of Costa Rica.

    1. Amen! Many of the American churches, at least mainline, are dying a slow death or are maintaining. This is not to suggest that the Gospel is no longer effective. It is just that statistics show that the institutional church is growing in South America, Africa and Asia. America and Europe ARE the mission field and not the other way around. No Fundy would ever admit that.

  7. 1:Revival is the end-all be-all of IFB religious existence. Revival is the ultimate religious,experiential high. Fundies are revival junkies.

    2:”God needed a nation that had the financial means to get the gospel to the world…” What a poor miserly god that represents. The heresy in that statement is “God needed…”

    1. AND that finances are even a part of God’s plan. HE can do things WITHOUT money. It is MAN who makes money the idol and doesn’t seem to be able to function without it!

      1. I’m appreciative of the blessings and freedoms I have in America. But those who indicate that God NEEDED America in order to evangelize the world seem to miss the point of 1 Corinthians 1:26-28: “Few of you were wise in the world’s eyes or powerful or wealthy when God called you. Instead, God chose things the world considers foolish in order to shame those who think they are wise. And he chose things that are powerless to shame those who are powerful. God chose things despised by the world, things counted as nothing at all, and used them to bring to nothing what the world considers important.”

  8. Don – I did have a bad habit of quoting scripture out of context, but I am steadily getting better and constantly vigilant about it. One can go all over the bible and find folks rejecting and accepting God’s plan of salvation, I chose this one because it speaks specifically to the fact that you “can neglect” the salvation offered to every living person on this planet, and I checked the context before posting, I guess I will have to disagree with you about the context on this one.

    Darrell – Presbygirl started it πŸ˜€
    I’ll try my best to let this be my last comment, but no promises. :mrgreen:

    1. @Greg. It’s true I started it. Presbygirl said sorry. See above. πŸ™‚

    2. John 15:16 says “You did not choose me, but I chose you…” Romans 9:16 says “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.”

  9. (Sigh) I guess it was foreordained that this would branch off into a Calvinsim debate

    Or maybe…it was supra likley…or is that infra? LOL

    1. In the Red corner we have Calvin the Crusher. Across the ring in the Blue corner is his opponent, Arminius the Avenger.
      Put your hands together people for 10 rounds of exciting internet forum action to determine once and for all who will be the undisputed theological champion of the world!

  10. BTW just wanted to say, I am thankful for all the American heros who put on an uniform, picked up a weapon, and purchased liberty at the price of their life.

    John 15:13

  11. I only bothered to listen to a few minutes but I wonder if he ends up saying the old “if God does not judge America, he will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah” bit.

    1. That part always gets me. I always got a headache when a sermon started out about how great America is and how blessed we are to live here and then turns to the “God will bring His wrath upon America if we don’t change our ways!” speech. OK, so, which one is correct?

    2. Considering what Ezekiel 16 says about the sins of Sodom, that sounds pretty reasonable to me:

      β€˜Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.”

      If God threatened Jerusalem with a thumping for being worse than Sodom, it looks to me as though we’re due.

      I think it’s only possible to go on and on about the greatness of America today from deep inside the Fundy bubble, with your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears.

  12. This “sermon” was the most egregious mis-representation of a Gospel or Biblical message that I’ve EVER heard. This preacher used one verse to prove his “America is awesome” pep rally of a sermon. And if he had been just 10% true to the text…contextually, historically or hermeneutically then even he could see this was a gross mis-handling of scripture.

  13. Did anyone catch that he said that he “Loves preaching on America”? I thought it was supposed to be about Christ.

    Silly me.

  14. Maybe the reason many fundies worship America is because many of the beliefs, rites and rituals of Christian Fundamentalism were created in America. IFB is an American creation, an American religion. It only makes sense to worship the country of your birth.

  15. Does anyone else think the “Looking Unto Jesus” sign was printed in dot matrix?

  16. I remember hearing this exact same drivel. That God is depending on America to get the Gospel out.

    I guess Mark 16:15 should really read as “Go ye into all the world, until America gets here. Then y’all can take a break”.

  17. I’d love to read an orthodox Jewish exegete’s take on Psalm 33:12 — I’ll bet it would be waaaaayyy different from this guy’s.

    I am neither unaware of nor unappreciative of God’s blessings upon this nation, but that said, this sermon is a load of crap.

  18. Interesting that America is such a giant part of God’s plan, but it’s never mentioned anywhere in the Bible. Comes out swinging with “I truly believe in my heart America blah blah blah.” No verse. Never a verse. Just his heart. I attended Fundy U for 3 years, got expelled, but I could preach 100 of these sermons from memory. Same opening statements, rhetorical questions, then adjusting the glasses as he slides right into the cadence of the sermon. And we’re off.

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