FIRST… BAPTIST!! AMEN??
Dang you, Congo man!
It’s hard to take time out of my busy amillennial, covenantal, Reformed, Congregational, Baptist-persecuting schedule to be first, but I’m committed.
Some Baptists say we Congregationalists should BE committed.
But are you the right kind of Baptist?
And, where is John the Baptist? He was the first to baptize the correct way!
Dear Jay Croft:
Actually, I do. Thanks for the new desktop!
I was going to say that no chart is correct without John the Baptist. That’s what I’ve been told.
John was the first Baptist! He wasn’t called John the Methodist!!
Fundy logic ftw!!!!
Some people say that John was a Baptist,
Some folks say he was a Jew,
But your holy scripture tells you
That he was a preacher too.
— Woody Guthrie, “Lonesome Valley”
Lol! How many times I’ve heard that one…smh
Would that be Jean Baptiste Charbonneau? I’m pretty sure I heard his mom became a fine Christian woman who ministered to the Indians. I probably heard that from the same people who say Jefferson and Franklin were really Baptists.
In actuality, Moses was the original Baptist. Paul wrote in I Cor. 10:1-2 that Israel “Were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.” But it doesn’t have the same ring to it, does it? “Moses the Baptist.” Nor have we ever heard a preacher say at a fellowship meeting, “There was a man sent from God whose name was Moses…” John the Baptist himself never claimed to be the “bride” either. By his own admission, he was the “Friend of the bridegroom.” (John 3:29). So, if John wasn’t the original Baptist, and if he wasn’t the “bride” of Christ, and if he wasn’t a member in good standing of a Baptist church (the law and the prophets were until John, which makes his ministry in the OT covenant, not the church age), how could he possibly be qualified to be in the ministry, or even be saved? And dare I even point out that John wasn’t the “husband of one wife” as far as we know? How dare God go to press with the Bible without clearing its content with Baptist tradition first!
Perhaps it’s inherent in their understanding of their history, but I’m truly shocked there’s not a box with “KJV 1611” on the timeline, considering that is such a hallmark of their identity and has preserved them as a people–the faithful remnant that has not bowed their knees to Baal. Then again, if it was good enough for Jesus, then it must be good enough for all of us.
I actually had someone say “it was good enough for Jesus and the apostles” in reference to the KJV…. Somehow the KJV has garnered the same attributes as God Almighty–inerrant, eternal–some have gone as far as equating KJV to John 1’s The Word….so I guess in some of their minds KJV transcends the 1611 print edition.
In the beginning was the KJV, and the KJV was with God, and the KJV was God.
The KJV was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by King James; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In KJV was life; and the archaic language was the light of men.
No, that’s not blasphemy … why do you ask?
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
I swear a preacher quoted John 1 and held up his bible. Here is the Word. It reminded me of Aaron and the Golden Calf–here is the God who brought you out of Egypt…..I was wondering if I would be justified in stoning the pastor and every one who said amen….but I decided to err on the side of grace.
Leanne – that was the standard understanding of John 1 in my fundy internment camp. And I mean that in the sense that no one ever questioned it. It was obvious that is what it meant. The pastor said it. I believe it. That settles it. Amen?
Bowed the knee to Baal or to Westcott and Hort?
Baptists are NOT a product of the Reformation! The line shouldn’t even be connect to it.
Baptists were not the original church any more than Methodists or Presbyterians were….except the fact that we were all part of the Church which split to make the Catholic and Orthodox Churches…..so the name Baptist shouldn’t be there either.
The Baptists just went around the Reformation. That’s why the line doesn’t go through it.
I use to hear in my fundy flavored churches “Christians are the only ones who shoot their own wounded.” Baptists are really good at that. Fundy baptists have made that an art form. What they do to Church history and how they label other churches even other baptist churches shows they are rather trigger happy.
Forget shoot. We hang, draw, and quarter our wounded.
I heard something along those lines… “Let’s make like Christians, and split!”
Haha! Somewhat reminds me of this.
This is the chart that was used to terrify me as a child in the Peebs. That fire from heaven at the end was the stuff of nightmares.
We had a huge display of that chart that was rolled out every time the pastor was going to talk about revelation. Good times! I remember thinking “man, that chart looks complicated. They must know their stuff!”
I remember thinking that too. Crazy. I eventually got really good at mentally removing myself from the room at the same time as appearing to be deeply interested in the chart and the man explaining it.
“I eventually got really good at mentally removing myself from the room at the same time as appearing to be deeply interested in the chart and the man explaining it.”
MiriamD, that’s an essential skill for a young person in a fundy church of any stripe.
I used to have that mentality. Then I studied mathematics and realized that only people who don’t understand things very well make them complicated.
Complicated serves to intimidate, to keep people from asking questions. Complicated does nothing to answer questions or to explain things very well.
IF complicated is needed, one can be selective in the information one presents to lessen the complexity. Teaching and learning needs to be done with that focus in mind.
I remember the chart. I remember Dispensationalism. I know it quite well. I preached it. I taught it. What I know now is that I don’t need that junk. It does absolutely nothing but puff up people as they think they are being filled with “knowledge.” Somehow compassion and empathy get lost in the mix.
In fact, compassion and empathy get lost under all “end-times” teachings. Think about it. Everyone is SOOO excited that the Lord is coming and *we* will be with the Lord. But that means that all those others get disposed of in the Cosmic Trash Dump of Hell. Yet there is no wild scramble to look for ways to bring people to Jesus. No, their fate is pretty much sealed. Since the Lord *knows* the end from the beginning, it is already accomplished. Those who will get saved will get saved. Those who will be damned, well, the Lord Himself will send “strong delusions” to ensure damnation!
There is no planning to make this a better world. It is all going to get burned up, so “drill, baby, drill”! Why try to preserve God’s Creation and take care of it when it, too, is ultimately trash. And that feeds the pocketbooks of the industrial masters so very much!
And why pay people a “living wage” when Jesus is going to return? Most of them are going to hell anyway. If Jesus were blessing them, they’d be rich, right? They are poor and lost and trash.
Any theology that feeds the rich, trashes the poor, disregards the future and discourages the creation of a just society has to be wrong. It has to be!
rtgmath, such great points about complexity and simplicity. One quote I heard that I’ve always remembered was Thomas Jefferson writing in a letter, “I would have written a shorter letter but I didn’t have the time.” It is more challenging to distill your thoughts into something simpler or shorter or clearer.
Also, “compassion and empathy get lost” — yes. Heartbreakingly true.
Miriam, that one was new to me. I’ve seen Larkin’s charts but do not recall the Loizaux Brothers.
You’re welcome? Lol. There was this man who had it printed on a huge bedsheet and used to pin it to the wall when he travelled around explaining it. As a kid that seemed hilarious to me. All of time and eternity on a bedsheet.
After a bit of brief research, I see the Loizeaux’s were Plymouth Brethren who carried on Darby’s dispensational view of the bible. They also published quite a few commentaries and books by well known preachers back in the early 20th century.
Even as a young earth creationist, I have quite a few problems with the start of their chart. And it gets worse from there.
They can’t have been too influential, they don’t seem to have their own Wikipedia listing.
The Peebs don’t want to be influential. They want to be exclusive, it makes them feel holy. I am serious. The fewer of them there are, the more they congratulate themselves.
Miriam – That chart is so full of crazy! This beats any fundy chart I have ever seen. If I understand that correctly, government was formed on the 2nd day of creation? But man wasn’t created until the 6th day? So whom governed who?
Scorpio, I am not sure commonsense is the way to approach this chart. Drugs might be a better way.
Miriam – I got plenty of those. Perhaps when I get home I will visit the medicine cabinet in order to help me discern the truth and wisdom in the chart. 😉
Ra the sun god ruled us all until Noah, apparently?
Of course, RobM. Just ask any Babylonian.
This flowchart is wrong accordingly to one of my fundy friends who insists that Baptists came into existence around the time of Nimrod.
“There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.”
Giant Baptists FTW!
I don’t see Ted Alexander on this?
You forgot to create a place for the Old Testament heroes as “Baptists in Spirit”
Now even I have to admit, that’s pretty funny
All that end times/rapture/tribulation/Darby inspired ramblings are pretty much unique to American Christianity brought to us courtesy of the Scofield References Bible. I know an evangelical Chistian woman who happens to be English and she has NONE of that baggage. She is a happy well adjusted Christian without all of those terrible fears and doubts that used to stalk us. Hers us a very authentic faith without all the emotional roller coasting and craziness.
The whole history of the Baptists is also unique to American Christianity as well. Show that to a classical scholar and see what kind of a reaction you get. It would be priceless.
Actually, Darby was Irish, well English Irish. He had a lot of influence in the UK in the late 1880s but it waned quickly and he brought his message to Canada and the United States. There are still PBs in the UK but they are definitely not mainstream any more.
I wish it had waned quickly here!
Me too. It seems that as a society progresses it loses it taste for hellfire and brimstone. Come on society, progress already.
Re: hovertext, triangles may be gay, but they keep popping up in fundy graphics everywhere.
Those cases aren’t necessarily contradictory
Squares to represent Baptists seems pretty accurate.
(Does any one except me still call people “squares”? Maybe it’s just my inner Beatnik coming out.)
Sure thing daddy-o.
I dig your groovy lines, man
No more jive talking!
Verily verily doth David Barton approve.
“THE BIBLE MAKES US BAPTIST!” [all caps mine for emphasis]
“THE BAPTISTS GO ALL THE WAY BACK TO JESUS CHRIST THEIR FOUNDER!” [all caps mine for emphasis]
I can easily waste the rest of my days upon this mortal soil reading all of these fine literary baptist masterpieces.
Was that web page designed to be viewed using a computer running DOS? I haven’t seen those color combinations in quite a long time. Now my eyes hurt.
I remember few things from my college days but I remember from my typography course that white-on-black was not a good thing to do in copious amounts.
“Three things must be true concerning the beginning of the church in order for it to be a scriptural church. It must have the right founder – Jesus Christ (Matt.16:18); the right place – Palestine (where Christ lived); and the right time – during Christ’s personal ministry. ” Wrong. It must simply have the gall to claim all these three things. Case in point? The Baptist church.
Baptist go back to Jesus their founder–yet on the page your link sent me to–their founding fathers look a whole lot like the American founding fathers….curiouser and curiouser.
My apologies for this long quotation from the last link, but I do want to “draw your attention” to the proclamation that baptists have never persecuted anyone, “EVER!”
“BAPTISTS have a history of which they need not be ashamed-a history of noble names and noble deeds, extending back through many ages, in which the present generation well may glory. From the days of John the Baptist until now, a great army of these witnesses for the truth, and martyrs for its sake, has illumined and honored the march of Christian history. The ages since Christ have known no purer, nobler lives, no braver, more faithful witnesses for the Gospel of Christ, no more glorious martyrs for its sake, than many of those who honor us by being called “our fathers in the faith.” They were true to conscience and to principle and loyal to Christ, at a cost to which we are strangers. They went gladly to prison and to death in defense of the Gospel which they loved. Social ostracism, bonds and imprisonments, confiscations and fines, whippings, drownings, and burnings at the stake, not only in solitary cases, but by hundreds and thousands, are certified to, even by their enemies. Christian martyrology has no bloodier and no brighter page than that which tells, however imperfectly, of the persecutions and sufferings for conscience’ sake of Baptist confessors, received during past ages, not from pagan barbarians so much as from professed fellow-Christians. It is an equal honor to their record that, while they endured persecution for the truth’s sake, they never persecuted others for conscience’ sake – never! How could they, when one of their cardinal principles was, and is, entire freedom of conscience and liberty of faith and worship, without interference by any? And the one priceless heritage they have given to the world, with which the world’s religious life of today – and its secular life as well-has become imbued, is that of entire religious liberty of faith, speech and worship, and entire separation of church and state.”
“… And the one priceless heritage they have given to the world, with which the world’s religious life of today – and its secular life as well-has become imbued, is that of entire religious liberty of faith, speech and worship, and entire separation of church and state.”
It’s curious that they end with that, since it is precisely what so many Fundy activists want to abolish now.
We would be remiss not to point out the section of that website labeled: Racial Suicide. Oh yes.
“It is an equal honor to their record that, while they endured persecution for the truth’s sake, they never persecuted others for conscience’ sake – never! How could they, when one of their cardinal principles was, and is, entire freedom of conscience and liberty of faith and worship, without interference by any? ”
Cough! Choke! He had the gall to say that? When the Prime Mission of IFBs and other Baptists are to restrict the rights of others and enthrone their doctrine as rule-of-law in these United States?
One background in fundyland where church history meant a copy of “Trail of Blood”
One reading a copy of some of the writings of the Early Christian fathers written before Constantine’s conversion (like this — http://amzn.com/0684829517)
The beginning of my conversion to Catholicism
Same here Brother !!
Hey–we made Alexanders Facebook page in which he blows his own horn. Again. I wonder when he will block me from it, also.
I love his comment:
“Stufffundieslike, the sounding board of a multitude of narcissistic psychopaths, has tried to do all they can to discredit a book no one has even read yet.
I know they hate when their lie about Puritans founding American liberty is debunked and when their deceitful Theocracy conspiracy gets a kick in the teeth.”
Can someone explain to me what our deceitful Theocracy conspiracy is all about? Please.
Ahhh! He has been reading! I posted about how business has been financing conservative religious viewpoints with a view toward creating the “Christian nation” everyone thinks we are.
Funny. I went onto the NYT website and found this AFTER I had made my post. I hadn’t read it, and I didn’t take any of my ideas from it. But here it is. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/opinion/sunday/a-christian-nation-since-when.html?action=click&contentCollection=Media&module=MostEmailed&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&src=me&pgtype=article
Followed by–My prayer is that God would use this short and simple book to open the eyes of many to the great things God has done in America with the Scriptural churches(BAPTISTS).
All you non-Baptists better get straightened out quickly, before the wrath of Ted bans you all.
It’s been said here many times, but how do Fundies figure that the churches that read far more of the Bible than Fundies do during Sunday services, and study the Bible in much more depth, are the non-Scriptural ones, while they are the Scriptural ones?
I don’t really mean Ted Alexander, I mean people who can string two or three thoughts together into an actual concept.
Teddy is clearly about 10 sockets short of a set of wrenches, and is the sort of “thinker” who assumes that if he puts some ragged threads of ideas into a blender and presses “Liquefy,” it will come out as a perfectly-knitted sweater.
That’s how baptists create doctrines.
“Stufffundieslike, the sounding board of a multitude of narcissistic psychopaths, has tried to do all they can to discredit a book no one has even read yet.”
It must be kind of painful for Ted to admit that no one has read his book, since it has been out for a while now.
You CAN judge some books by the cover….
I’m sorry to interrupt, but I missed a memo. Darrell, what exactly is our “deceitful Theocracy conspiracy”? I need to know what my teeth were kicked in for.
Quote from Trail of Blood chart:
“THE RED CIRCLES REPRESENT BAPTIST CHURCHES beginning
with the first at Jerusalem, founded by Christ during His earthly ministry, and
out of which came the churches of Judea, Antioch and others.”
See Jesus was a Baptist – cmon guys!
Right. Sure. Jesus was the first Pastor?
Funny. Baptists are sooooo devoted to the Bible, but they never read it! Nowhere did Jesus found a church, much less a Baptist Church! He said He would found a church, a gathering, an “ecclesia” on “this rock,” but it was left to men to gather, to organize, to take decades, centuries, and even millennia to write the rules of belief and gathering.
If Jesus was the first pastor, then the Catholics do indeed have it right for their priests to be unmarried.
Jesus was probably married, but that’s another discussion for another day.
ekklesia is a secular term for a political gathering to make decisions. It is not a religious word like that of the synogogue.
Isn’t that what King Jimmy wanted when he commission the translation that bears his name? Wouldn’t it have been better translated as “assembly”?
George, quit eating verb endings. *commissioned* — not “commission”
I believe assembly is the better rendering. The term “church” has a great deal of extra-biblical baggage, including the idea of buildings and leadership hierarchy (King Jimmy’s variety).
While I agree with you Big Red 1, as an ex Peeb, I get uncomfortable when this discussion begins. They call their gatherings assemblies. It doesn’t matter what you call a gathering if your heart isn’t right. Semantics can only do so much. If you meet in love and tolerance you can call it whatever you want and it will be good. If you meet in exclusion of anyone, it will never be good whatever you call it.
It is like a flowchart of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
… As drawn by the self-identified only true Scotsman in the whole world.
Just need to vent…..
Why on earth is there a “Pastor’s wife appreciation month”?? Where’s the “Organist’s husbands appreciation month” or the “Backrow Baptists Appreciation Month”?? It probably wouldn’t bother me so much but my former church is pushing this crap down my throat (constant emails sent out, cause I’m still “technically” a member). Seems stupid and self-congratulatory. Makes it appear as if they are more important than other Christians. Makes me feel gross.
“Yea, you married a pastor. Good for you.”
I shouldn’t have said “more than other Christians”. I should just leave it at “Makes it appear as if they are more important than others.”
But that’s the Baptist Way!!
Cassie, it’s my pet peeve too. It seems to be quite ubiquitous in evangelical circles too. Not that I don’t appreciate them, but money donations usually follow.
During Pastor Appreciation Month, an email was sent out with “examples of appreciation”. Of course, it included gifts and money…….
You know, I’m a pastor and my wife and I feel the same way. We are just people.
I remember evangelists telling us that we should be raising our daughters to be pastors’ wives (or missionary’s wives). I always thought that God had a unique plan for each person, but I guess that’s not the case. So if all the good girls go to the ministers does that mean regular Joe’s should have to settle for the leftovers?
Well, the way some of those WoGs behaved, it was well and good to not get very far with them.
I was a Social Studies Education major, and girls decided I wasn’t worth any attention if I wasn’t heading to the pulpit.
I’m in a labor job and I married a girl who wanted to go on the mission field. She was under no false pretenses. She just couldn’t resist me.
I saw that being touted on Facebook and thought how nice it is to be out of circles where a pastor’s wife, even though she is not employed by the church, is expected to be heavily involved by playing the piano for all services, teaching children’s Sunday school, attending/leading all women’s Bible study and missionary meetings, organizing all church meals, etc. The pastors’ wives at my church now are just ordinary church members.
Dear SFL Reader:
I suppose it’s inevitable that young men become interested in their bodies and other people’s bodies as well. Interest tends to lead to exploration. Some young men like to use glossy, full-colored magazines as a part of this process of exploration. But it happens that those have not always been available. What they DO have is the Baptist Timeline. And so far as I can see, it is used the same way.
What a terrible thought.
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