A preacher used an iPad in the pulpit at Heartland Baptist Bible College?? Quick, somebody send that church an e-mail and FORCE SAM DAVISON TO EXPLAIN!
If I were Sam, my response would have been to stare at the camera blankly for about 5 seconds and then say “Dude…it’s 2015.”
160 thoughts on “Luddites”
My son went to a youth conference in Lincoln, IL in 2013 and one of the guest preachers (an older gentleman) after berating using electronic devices for preaching, claimed that the Apple symbol on the back of the ipad/iphone is representative of the apple that Adam and Eve bit into that plunged mankind into sin.
Unfortunately for him, the bible never states what kind of fruit it was, just that it was forbidden.
Oh, come now. If a preacher man says it, it must be so. Don’t let actual facts from the book of Genesis hold sway over you. Thinking is evil.
I’d preach against iPads if I were a guy, because Apple products are for hipsters and hipsters are the same as hippies and hippies caused the downfall of the United States from the pinnacle of holiness that was the 1950s. But I’m not a guy so I must be innately ignorant.
You sound bitter
All fundy women are!
Oh for heaven’s sake! If he thinks apples are so bad, I have to wonder if he ever eats apple sauce. Or apple pie. Or apple anything. Idiot!
I knew this crazy charismatic lady who swore (well, no, she didn’t swear, but you know what I mean) that the fruit in the garden of Eden was apricots. Because one time when she was a little girl, she stole apricots from the kitchen and ate them and this was the first sin she remembered committing. And she said that apricots are the only fruit that is delicious enough to tempt someone to sin.
But she also tried to slay my fundy mother in the spirit once, so she was a bit nuts.
Yup, those fruit trees bear mighty tasty produce. And God would put the forbidden tree smack dab in the middle where it would be sure to be seen, beside which they’d have to pass, with all that wonderful fruit on it — as if He was planning all along to get them to try it. He couldn’t have set up a better trap.
If she stole enough apricots and ate them all, that particular sin carries its own punishment–or so my husband says. He really likes apricots, too.
In Medieval and Renaissance art, the forbidden fruit was often portrayed as a pear, and sometimes as a medlar (a fruit not found in most U.S. supermarkets):
Or a pomegranate (which was also the forbidden fruit in the Greek myth of Persephone and Hades):
If it were based purely on deliciousness, for me the forbidden fruit would be a very ripe mango.
I think I recall seeing one painting where the fruit of Genesis 3 was a quince.
but this discussion of fruit
has led me to think of William Carlos Williams
and his plums
and has made me hungry
Reminds me of the diary of one of the KJV translators. Taken from, The Men Behind the KJV. “The next year young Ward wrote, July 19, 1596, “My gluttony in eating plums and raisins and drinking so much after supper.” July 23, “For eating so many plums, although thou heard that many died of surfeits.” August 6, “My longing after damsons when I made my vow not to eat in the orchard.” August 13, “My intemperate eating of damsons, also my intemperate eating of cheese after supper.” August 21, “My long sleeping in the morning.””
A great poem indeed, notquiteso.
You can die from eating too many plums?
Dying from eating too many plums? What a way to go!
Just a personal preference ONLY, but I prefer no device of any kind when preaching, even the old time machines that you put a transparency on. Nothing against the technology, but it usually compromises eye contact. I do agree, however, that a visual such as a short PowerPoint presentation may be needed, but hopefully won’t take up the entire preaching time. My pastor rarely preaches from an outline or notes, and makes great eye contact throughout, so maybe I’m spoiled. 🙂
“Lets do the time warp again
A KJV Bible
Its knee length skirts and dress
don’t use iPads
that will drive us insane.
Lets do the time warp again.”
Honestly, the 1950’s were not this lame…
Your KJV has long skirts?
If you are a serious Christian your Bible will have a cover so…yes bibles can have skirts….
You don’t want to let that Bible show too much (calf) skin.
Isn’t having a lacy fru-fru cover calling attention to the holy book and therefore immodest?
It’s ok to use technology as long as you make it very clear that you aren’t good at it, don’t use it to it’s potential, do everything you possibly can the old fashioned way and only use an I phone or I pad as a last resort. Then and only then can you be truly Godly. Amen
All Godly technical knowledge ceased in 1611
…or was it 1769?
It’s okay–the iPad was for medical reasons.
Too bad they don’t have scrolls. CURSE YOU, GUTENBERG!!!!!
But you can scroll on the i-pad, so maybe Steve Jobs was actually returning the reading of books to the Olde Paths. After all his name was JOBS because he created JOBS for people to work and not drain our nation’s spirit by being on WELFARE, haymen???
His name was Jobs because his life recapitulated the Book of Job.
I’m not sure how, but I’m sure there’s a sermon in there somewhere.
So, here in 2015, I’m supposed to believe a “college” president has never turned on a computer?
You know Sam was the only speaker to preach Christ and the Gospel during the SOTL conference I reported on for SFL. All the rest were preaching about themselves, performance religion, praising one another, counting coup, and bragging on their own sanctimony… *sigh*
I really do hate the way church is done in the IFB. And if the small minded prig who sent the email about the use of an ipad in the pulpit is reading this…
“How small is your god?” How small is your god that he is confined to a black leather book approximately 8.5 inches x 11 inches? The Bible on the ipad is the same as the black calfskin leather, gilt edged book you have in your hand. That email is proof of idolatry. It’s proof they worship the visible book more than it’s contents!
“It’s proof they worship the visible book more than it’s contents!”
Well said, Sir.
The attitude here is pretty much the same as that of the Israelites during the time of the judges before they went into battle against the Philistines, ‘Hey, let’s take the magic box with us and then we’re sure to be victorious!’
“How small is your God?” Well he’s big enough to be everywhere, and small enough to fit His words into an iPad, too.
I’ve been out of the fundies too long. I’ve begun to put of my mind the stupidity regarding the use of technology.
At our new church its odd to not see a tablet/iPad used in the sermon.
The church I went to after leaving Fundystan actually bought the pastor an iPad to use in the pulpit and his studies.
I have the ESV on my phone. Ebibles are not always practical — my app is a no-frills deal — but it’s easier than carrying a bound version. Since I often walk to church (uphill both ways) that’s a huge consideration.
Without shoes? In the rain? Or snow?
Yup. Old paths!
No. Olde paths. Get it right.
Not just a book…a “black” one. Don’t come in here with one of those sissified bright colored Bibles either. Shove that in the garbage with your iPad, unless you are blind. Then we’ll give you a pass.
Yeah, unless it’s an American Flag Bible.
(Also, in Oklahoma, camo bibles are permissible.)
Argh! Those “Freedom Bible” ads are filling up every website I go to now.
You’re lucky. I keep getting dating ads — either for young Russian women or old Catholics. I’m not interested in either, TYVM. Darrell’s got some weird ad algorithms going.
I get the young Russian women too, but usually at school. And Viagra. Also at school. “Teacher, what’s vi-gra?”
Remember the Viagra tv advert with that song, Good Mornin’? and the guy jumping down the steps and dancing down the sidewalk? Well my 7 year old loved it and used to do that out our door every morning to the amusement of the entire neighbourhood. LOL
Lady Semp – You interested in pilots?
Not pilots named Otto. 😀
This perfectly encapsulates all that is maddening about Sam Davison. He has enough of a sense of humor to poke fun at fundy foibles while at the same time propping up the silly system that he admits is worthy of mockery.
“The problem is not with him (The speaker) it is my failure to say anything to try and clarify why that is….”
He should have said, “If there was a problem, the problem is not with him…the problem is with you.”
more specifically he should have said, “the problem is with your idolatry of that black book“
I was at BJU when Triplestyx went on his tirade about students using electronic Bibles in chapel. IIRC, his reasoning was the he couldn’t tell if we were reading the Bible or playing video games on our devices, and given how grace-filled and Christlike Fundies are, the obvious solution was to ban electronic devices of any kind from being used in chapel.
Being the early adopter that I am, I was using a Palm Tungsten T2 with Olive Tree’s Bible software. I had to start carrying around a heavy paper Bible in my book bag in addition to all my other books.
Maybe he knew that I was using the NASB instead of the KJV on my Palm?
My first electronic Bible was also Olive Tree on a T2. I kind of miss the Palm. I’ve never had a calendar on a phone I liked as much as the Palm.
I use Olive Tree on my RAZR M and my Galaxy Tab2. An older guy asked a question at church a while back, and our asst pastor pulled out his phone to look up an answer and was told, “Not from that. From a real Bible”.
Change comes slowly, but it will come.
I’m an old BJU dropout. I never hear “triplestyx” before. Took me a second to figure it out. That’s great! But you really should refer to him with more respect: DOCTOR Triplestyx.
I used to clean his office on night cleanup. He is not a nice man.
Doctor Tripplestix! Sounds like a Gotham Baddy for sure, alongside the Joker, the Penguin, and others.
Anyone here into creating Gotham-style drawings? What evil lurks in the hearts of college students? Tripplestix knows!
Or was that the Shadow?
Get the “L” out, and you’ve got Tripestyx. Somehow that seems to fit also.
The kids are now using YikYak in chapel
“I was at BJU when Triplestyx went on his tirade about students using electronic Bibles in chapel. IIRC, his reasoning was the he couldn’t tell if we were reading the Bible or playing video games on our devices, and given how grace-filled and Christlike Fundies are, the obvious solution was to ban electronic devices of any kind from being used in chapel.”
I bet he was mostly concerned with students recording and publicly posting the graceless chapel sermons online. They prefer the world not see what they really are.
Equating technology use with “a bad attitude”?
At least Luddites opposed technology because they thought their jobs were at stake. This is so much worse. This is “old paths” with an ox-drawn cart. Why don’t they just get rid of their modern buildings and go back to un-air conditioned open-air tents while they are at it?
So it isn’t the KJV if you read it from an iPad? Unless you are legally blind?
They would do the world a favor if they would stop using computers and the internet, too.
If they use computers, they can at least look godly. If they go to the seedy side of town in their Escalades or church vans everyone will know what they are up to. You can hide your browsing history but it’s hard to deny that you were seen at that bookshop.
You seem suspicious
Me? Suspicious? Hey, just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they AREN’T out to get me.
I prefer to think of myself not as suspicious, but as delightfully jaded.
Jade is a semi-precious stone …
Big Gary, I’m completely precious.
And precocious, no doubt.
HBBC is already located in the seedy side of town, so . . . mission accomplished!
So yes, there are a few that still believe in the tents without air conditioning. Jason Kendrick is an evangelist that carts around a tent and dies meetings. Several years ago I attended one and heard him talk about how he loves the heat and the bugs and the Mosquitos. Guess to really gave God in your side you have to be swatting Mosquitos while dehydrated?
He sounds like malaria’s best friend.
I want an explanation for why some of those preachers have started using them new-fangled auto-gnome-bills to get to meetings. And how about those backslidin’ churches that have taken to using electric lights instead of God-given oil lamps?
Old paths, hay-men?
That’s what I was thinking too. They should also reject the use of indoor plumbing.
I wonder if these guys use straight razors? No twin-blades or rotary electrics…
They use a sharpened clamshell.
Leviticus 19 v 27
(it’s in the King James Bible)
Haha! Is that the beard verse? My bil got a tattoo and his father-in-law quoted him vs 28:
You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD.…
My wife (I love her for this!) asked him why the fil had a clean shaven face, because the previous verse says not to trim the sides of your beard.
Why yes, the fil IS a fundy, why do you ask?
I have tattoo – lots of them, about 50% of my upper body is inked – and theyake great Pharisee Detectors.
I also have a beard. The bible might not condemn me but Fundies might.
I use a straight razor. Nothing like a little cold steel against your throat in the morning to remind you that you’re alive.
I use a safety razor, preferably with Wilkinson Sword blades. My son once asked why it was called a safety razor, since it was so easy to get cut with. When I showed him my grandfathers old straight razor and told him this was what it replaced, he agreed it was safer.
I have never used the straight razor, but I have thought of stropping it and giving it a try.
Dr., you never cease to amaze me!
Is kerosene permitted or do we need to stick to candles, olive oil, and whale oil?
Re: electric lights. I seem to recall in the His Dark Materials series, what sort of lights one used had some correlation to whether one supported the established Church or not.
Dear SFL Reader,
In case you feel that this is all much ado about nothing, let me assure you that the man in the pulpit is dealing with a very serious spiritual issue.
The question boils down to form versus substance. The man in the pulpit has clearly chosen “form.” He apologizes where he should be applauding. He thinks he is rejecting “worldliness” when he is choosing a different era of worldliness.
He has forgotten what substance looks like. He is a servant to shadows, to ghosts (and not the Holy one!). He cannot tell the difference between good and evil any longer. “If the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness!”
The physical world, including science and technology, is not the “world” that is in rebellion to God. The rebellion is in the forsaking of the weak and needy, the downtrodden, the “sinners” who need help. Instead these men lift themselves on high pulpits, puff their chest, praise themselves as they reduce faith to a mere mental assent to archaic thinking and doctrines.
Do those men advocate for the betterment of the poor, the healing of the sick, the lifting up of the fallen, Grace on the “criminal” sinners? No. They may do some scant work, but they want to be in charge. They want the glory. So they attack things that are good and useful and which should be received with thanksgiving! They cripple others to magnify themselves.
The technology has done a lot of good. How much more good could be done if preachers would stop being petty and use all available resources to focus on the larger issues?
If there were a God in Heaven — a good God — should He not have done something to keep these self-serving idiots from coopting His Faith?
Thus endeth the rant for now.
Form follows Function.
Same difference! 🙂
You do not know the man in the pulpit, then. I know Sam Davison personally and sat through his homiletics class. He is clearly handling a delicate situation in a classy and tactful way. For you to make an assumption on Sam Davison’s Christianity like that proves your own Christianity’s depth.
The best of men are men at best, and I’m not sensationalizing him to be anything more than a man. He is simply a mentor and one of the most Christ-honoring men I’ve ever known.
So, SIR… please don’t make assumptions based on a seconds-long video clip outside its context.
What’s so freaking “delicate” about using a tablet form of a holy book as opposed to a bunch of paper bound in leather? If that’s “delicate” I’d hate to see their reaction to actual issues that matter, like loving one’s neighbor. Oh wait, judging someone over using a tablet instead of a paper book IS a matter of loving — or not — one’s neighbor.
Pixels or paper shouldn’t be an issue. A word is a word is a word no matter the physical form that it takes. If they want to use their book as the standard of faith and practice they should be using scrolls, because Jesus took a scroll and read from it. None of this bound book nonsense. Then again, he wore robes and I’ve yet to see a fundy man in a robe and sandals.
I also know Sam Davison – very well. Can’t say more lest I give away my identity, but I’m sure I know him better than someone who attended his class! I watched the man up-close and in action for about a dozen years.
This is VERY typical for him. Because he personally hates technology, he sometimes preaches against technology merely because he doesn’t understand it!
Only in “old paths” churches/schools is it “cool” (a word he hates, BTW!) to brag about how little you know about technology!
Over the years, I went from respecting the man very highly, to wondering how many people have been hurt by the illegal and unethical things he’s allowed to take place under his “ministry.”
Lord Don: “Performance Religion” LOL!!!!! That is so very true!!!
I am feeling for the speaker that used the iPad. It’s so embarrassing when you have a disability and you need to “apologize” for the extras that make life livable. I have several extras in my life due to an orthopedic problem that has gotten worse as I have aged. At one women’s retreat, someone kept commenting on the elevated toilet seat I had left in the ladies’ room (discreetly in a corner) every time she walked in. I finally told her it was mine and she didn’t have to say anything else. No one should have to apologize for an iPad in the pulpit, for any reason.
The saddest thing about true Fundy churches it is all about appearances-the right Bible, the right musical instruments, the right kind of clothing, the right kind of music, the right kind of preaching, the right kind of vocabulary. They do swallow a camel trying to strain out the gnat, and they don’t seem to understand where the problems are. Jesus came to bring grace and freedom, not more enslavement to appearances.
Fundynomore, you left out one essential–a white piano.
None of the fundy churches I attended had a white piano…should I feel deprived?
We did have a “modesty rail” for the choir loft, though.
Just one more thought–I wonder if the average Fundy ever thinks about how much good missionary work occurs because of technology…such as Bible translation and simplified fund raising.
But the Fundies would say “the people translating the bible are producing false translations because they ate not using the king james. Why translate the bible when we have the perfect word of God already? Teach them to read the King James.” And, yes, I have heard someone use that argument. 🙁
All you need is an average education to understand the verbiage of the KJV. Haven’t you heard of the Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level Indicator?
I am reminded of a church where I visited the midweek service a few years ago. The pastor told everyone to get their cell phones out as they would need them during the service! The service was more like a class. Bible questions were asked in multiple choice format. When you chose the answer you felt was correct you texted the letter of that answer to the ph number given. We could see horizontal bands moving outwards to the right of each choice as answers were texted in. Finally the right answer was given and discussed. I was impressed and thought this was a neat use of technology.
Nothing wrong with it, but it’s just a gimmick.
A show of hands would accomplish the same demonstration.
People are more likely to text a real answer – some anonymity there. Possibly raising your hand to the wrong answer is intimidating. I’m not IFB but I imagine how “getting it wrong” woudl go over in that setting.
I got slapped on the shoulder by a guy at my local (non-fundy) church for texting during the message. The problem is, Imwas taking notes on my phone’s notepad. I set him straight right then.
I also work in a repair shop and my boss came up to me and told me to put my phone away and get to work. I showed him my phone. I was on a technical website for the equipment I was trying to fix. I reminded him that the company should actually be paying for my phone since I was using it for the business.
Another guy at work found out that I have light switches in my house that are connected to the wifi so I can have them programmed for vacation, turn off bathroom fans after 30 minutes, monitor the temperature, etc. He laughed and said I could have saved money and time by buying a clapper™. He, my friends, is a complete and utter dope.
When people start this drivel about “tacknahlogee” I always tell them that it’s fine if they want to ignore it, but I’m going to use it any time I feel it enhances my life.
Of course, writing with a ball-point pen is also technology.
As is writing with a fountain pen or a goose quill, or pressing a stick into a clay tablet. It’s just a question of which millennium’s technology you prefer.
Does it occur to anyone else that Muslim fundamentalists are using more technology than Christian fundamentalists? If the Christian fundamentalists realized this, they’d probably humble bragging it from the “pool-pit” next Sunday, haymen?
Nah, they’d be saying they needed to adopt the tech to stay ahead of the bad guys.
You seem cynical
Yes, I’m messing with you
No, I’m delightfully jaded. Don’t you remember?
Hold it right cheer….
I’m looking through my four volume set of “The Fundamentals” looking for the reference to handwritten notes being “true fundamentalism.”
I – know – it’s – gotta – be – here – … (licks finger and turns to next page)
…pushing up reading glasses…
Someone E-mailed a complaint about using tech. E-mailed a complaint. E-mailed.
And then the response was live-streamed over the Internet.
LOL! Excellent point!
The guitar player in our worship orchestra uses two iPads, a MacBook, and a pedalboard full of gizmos every Sunday. But he doesn’t preach, so I guess that’s ok. 😛
I played this clip for my wife (her grandparents attend Sam Davison’s church) and the first thing she said was how ironic that someone used EMAIL to complain about technology use!!
Really. Why would the pastor even read something nobody bothered to write on parchment with a quill?
They should etch the words on tablets of stone, like Moses.
And so it came to pass that young Cox, having established his Kingdom in the video booth, sent forth his minions with iPads, iPhones, and Twitter accounts to survey the land…(the plot thickens).
One time, one of the prominent token black funny missionaries to black America…aka a guy being paid to live in his own neighborhood and do what he should be doing anyways, went on a tirade during a revival in my church about how uninterested people should show some respect and not text while he is preaching. I was the only one with a smart phone, and I came almost straight from work without my bible and was following him on Youversion. I just kept on while he his vein was bursting about old disrepectful me. A while later, I emailed the man to apologize to him, not for using my phone, but for allowing him to continue to think I was disrespecting him without clarifying. No response….no apology for jumping to conclusions. ….nothing. In trying to be humble about, I only confirmed he was a jerk who jumped to conclusions and wanted to impress everyone about being such a firm old paths preacher who would call people out from the pulpit.
If you have nothing important to talk about, you talk about little things.
One time, one of the prominent token black funny missionaries to black America…aka a guy being paid to live in his own neighborhood and do what he should be doing anyways, went on a tirade during a revival in my church about how uninterested people should show some respect and not text while he is preaching. I was the only one with a smart phone, and I came almost straight from work without my bible and was following him on Youversion. I just kept on while his forehead vein was bursting about old disrepectful me. A while later, I emailed the man to apologize to him, not for using my phone, but for allowing him to continue to think I was disrespecting him without clarifying. No response….no apology for jumping to conclusions. ….nothing. In trying to be humble about it and keep him from being offended, I only confirmed he was a jerk who jumped to conclusions and wanted to impress everyone about being such a firm old paths preacher who would call people out from the pulpit.
If you’ve heard this story before, don’t stop me, because I’d like to hear it again.
I think of this when I double post also………..
That’s pretty much my life motto.
Maybe I’ll have it engraved on my tombstone.
These are the announcements you find yourself making if you pastor a church full of Pharisees
I actually love having my Bibles on my Kindle. Easy to take notes or delete them if I need to with scrawling all over a page.
Of course, I tend to prefer the NRSV so I have my foot half in hell’s domain already….
Me, I like the NET Bible, the New English Translation–with the translation notes.
That’s a good one, too. I should put that on my phone.
I use Olive Tree on my laptop and my tablet. Everything syncs and I’m not marking a paper Bible up past readability the way I was as a little kid when 1) everything important HAD to be highlighted and 2) no one had realized how bad I was at reading highlighted text yet.
The Episcopal parish I’m in now is going paperless for at least Lent, possibly thereafter, for the worship bulletins (so it’ll go from three full sheets every Sunday per person at minimum if there aren’t extras to maybe one for announcements only). I’m seriously considering paying the ten bucks for the official Book of Common Prayer app because I read along with the printed readings, juggling pages in the BCP and Hymnal is already one book too much without adding a Bible to it even if I can find out the readings beforehand and pre-mark, and there are some other features I want anyway.
I’m hoping those of us with devices can use them in limited ways during the service once the paperless switch happens and I’m already planning out the AppDetox blacklist for Sunday mornings to keep me out of anything but Bible apps and maybe a diary program for independent notes.
Was this pastor not using a microphone connected to speakers?
That’s a modern technological device. How about the camera in the back of the auditorium? Another modern technological device. How did these fundy’s survive such an invasion of evil into the church?
Sam Davison is not a Fundies. He’s a fundamentalist in the truest sense of the word. He is a biblicist. He is not a legalistic, and he taught me personally how to come out of the “Fundies” mindset.
You can be a fundamentalist and not be a “Fundie”
Sam Davison is one of the most respectable men I’ve ever met and he truly lives a Christ-centered life. He also preaches like none other.
Heartland baptist bible college has covertly grown into one of the top Bible colleges in the country. They develop biblicists! Not Fundies, there.
Than you for your comments, Mr E.
But, and as a matter of telling you the truth, I must tell you that you are sadly mistaken.
Fundamentalists “in the truest sense of the word” are indeed fundies. Substituting the word “Biblicist” makes no difference; indeed it reinforces the very idea of fundiness. In an attempt to elevate status, avoid a label but also failing to address the core issues you demonstrate the essence of fundamentalism, including its rotten core.
“Biblicist” is a say-nothing label. It is puffery. It doesn’t mean they handle or understand the Scriptures any better. It confers on them no particular wisdom nor insight. It is like the “honorary doctorates” fundies have honored themselves with over the years, claiming glory without having it or earning it.
It is a matter of form without substance.
That isn’t to say that the man can’t be nice to whom he chooses. It doesn’t mean he isn’t sincere, or considers himself a fraud. One can be sincere–and wrong.
I appreciate your attempt to defend your friend and mentor. But by his own standards he may be judged by those he associates with, by the movement he belongs to, and by the attitudes he displays. One doesn’t have to know him personally to judge him as one of those–how could he be anything different?
Frankly, no fundamentalist would think of or call themselves “legalistic,” no matter how legalistic they really are. The Pharisees thought themselves to be right with God as well, but Christ showed the depths of their self-deception.
I used to be a fundy, root and branch. I called myself a “Biblicist” on occasion. I was sincere, believed I honored Christ and lived for God. Reality hurts.
I will grant you Sam is the only one at the SOTL conference I attended who preached Jesus Christ and the Gospel. But according to the Fundies’ own set of standards… “you are known by the company you keep.” If you run with a cult, you are identified with that cult. Appearance trumps substance every time right?
That depends on how specific the “cult” gets.
I’m a Baptist by definition, but it doesn’t associate me with the Westboro crowd. I used to be a Fundies’ fundie. I now use two different categories, because there really is a difference. If you’re too blind to acknowledge it, that’s your choice:
1. Fundies: over the top, half-crazed traditionalists who like to yell and demean others for their own prideful benefit. Rule makers. Legalists. Ruckmanites.
2. Fundamentalists: the Word of God, in its context, is exclusively our standard. Jesus Christ is everything. My duty as a Christian is to honor God and help people. Period.
I’m a fundamentalist. And I make no apologies. However, I do find this website entertaining occasionally because I used to sit in Camp Meeting headed up by men like Sam Gipp and Phil Kidd… So sad to see these sects exist. IMHO, They truly are cults. However, I do not wish to associate with that mindset. Their attempt to see God honored and people helped is thwarted by their method.
Uhhh, nobody appointed you the definition maker or arbiter. So no, you don’t get to set the definitions.
In fact, your attempt to do so pegs you as a very hard core fundy. Fundy and Fundamentalist. No difference.
To be sure there are minor distinctions between different people. But minor only.
The word “gay” is no longer associated with “happy”. If you said to someone, “I’m feeling gay today” I’m pretty sure that person would not interpret that as meaning that you feel happy. Likewise, the term “fundamentalist” has taken on a negative meaning. In a way it is unfortunate, because if one believes the fundamentals of xianity (whatever they are; for some believing in the KJV is a fundamental element, despite the fact that you can’t make that claim from the Bible itself) one should be able to call himself a fundamentalist.
No matter how often and how stridently a fundamentalist makes the claim that “fundamentalist” doesn’t mean “crazy” the world at large now defines the term negatively. People think of fundamentalists as legalistic, crazy, violent, and isolationist.
Go on calling yourself “fundamentalist” if you wish. Outside the movement it is loaded with bad connotations and you will be labeled as a lunatic. Inside the movement, it’s a term of pride and you will be warmly received — at least by fundies of the same stripe. Other varieties will call you too liberal or too crazy.
But it is a spot of fun to turn the IFB standards back on them from time to time. To the average Fundie the “appearance ” of something is to be avoided even more than the substance of something. So to associated oneself with fundies of fundiest stripe then one must own it… in fact it hangs around one’s neck like an albatross The stench clings to whomever continues to bathe in the Pharisee’s wallow.
And as you agree that the Fundies are a sect then I believe we are not that far apart in our assessment of the IFB bunker system being, at least, cultish in nature and practice.
Mr. E, for a long time, my husband and I tried to go by the “true” fundamentalist label. We called ourselves balanced. Had I known the term, I would have called us “fundy-lite.” He didn’t preach against tattoos, public schools, and dancing. He focused on Scripture. We didn’t join any local IFB organizations though we were asked to. Eventually, though, we gave up the label. One of the things that influenced us was having a prospective visitor call us and say they wanted to visit our church but seeing that we had graduated from BJU, they wanted to let us know that they were a mixed-race couple: would they still be welcome. We were horrified that THAT was the reputation we were unknowingly presenting: we told them, yes, of course, they were welcome and we were thoroughly ashamed of having the BJU label.
I also think one of the problems with saying I’m a fundamentalist because I believe the fundamentals of the faith is that it makes it sound as if no other types of Christians believe in the fundamentals and many do.
All those who affirm the words of the Niceness Creed or the Apostles’ Creed are affirming the fundamentals of the faith. These are the historic points used to define someone who is a Christian.
In trying to replace some and remove others, the “Five Fundamentals” attempted to exclude people from being acknowledged as Christians. It created a separate, more exclusive body, often referred to in Fundamentalist circles as “the true believers.” Other groups are claimed to preach false gospels. It may be grudgingly acknowledged that there are saved people in those groups, but it is never assumed that they got saved through the preaching inside those churches.
To those who wish to be known as Fundamentalist, I ask them if they ever read the rebuke by Paul to sectarianism in I Corinthians. What is wrong with simply being a Christian? Why all the attempts to separate from Christian brethren?
Of course I know their answers. But in the context of Scripture those answers are feeble.
rtgmath is correct. For 1900 years the Apostles’ Creed contained the fundamentals of the faith. Even the later ecumenical creeds were seen as distinguishing landmarks, but not boundary markers.
Of course, many fundamentalists don’t recite the creeds or even familiarize themselves with them. Some of them avoid the creeds by saying there is a line of fundamentalists (or Baptists) that goes back to the apostles (who needs a creed if you’re part of that pure line of faith?). It is totally untrue. It’s sad that so many people who desire to live righteously will completely avoid historical documents that disprove their belief. I used to recite the BJU creed while there. It’s ok, but not nearly as glorious as the creeds that have survived for centuries. I’ve always thought it odd that they had their own creed written up, supposedly on a napkin in a few minutes.
Truly, though… The name doesn’t say much unless you live up to it. By its true definition, fundamentalist is what I am. The word, “Christian” carried a negative aura for centuries. The word, “Baptist” carries a negative aura currently… Does that mean I drop those? No, because I am within the true definition of those.
Honestly, though… I don’t even introduce my church to others in town as an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church. I just say it’s a church.
If further questions rise, I’ll sure answer them.
I think we can all agree that the Word of God is deserving of being followed and faithfully so.
Like I said, honor God and help people should be our mission. If you get that part right, the rest seems to fall into place.
I do understand this website’s mission, because there are half-crazed loons out there who claim fundamentalism like its some sort of ordained title from God Himself.
I’m quite entertained by it all…
I have MANY stories from my “camp meeting” days under Phil Kidd… Haha
I am not a fundamentalist any loger, nor can I be.
Fundamentalism holds to a warped view of the Scriptures (inerrancy) with a package of inconsistent and inappropriate hermetics. Their views on salvation, on the person and work of Christ, on the church are all lopsided through ignoring many parts of Scripture.
There was no golden age of rightness. They have always been progressing toward what they have become. They enthusiastically deny reality. They are a cult of many masters displaying their ignorance with unguarded tongues attempting to give pure water and foul from the same spring, thinking they can tame the ungodly fires of their tongues to do the will of God.
Caution: the package contents have never been what they advertised. There is no good “truest sense of the word” for fundamentalism. That kind of thinking is a snare to the soul, a delusion of righteousness keeping you in an ungodly state of mind.
“I’m not angry, LOL!”
“All those who affirm the words of the Niceness Creed or the Apostles’ Creed are affirming the fundamentals of the faith. These are the historic points used to define someone who is a Christian. ”
Er. rtgmath, has George snuck up on you? Or a spell checker, perhaps?
We Episcopalians don’t need no Niceness Creed. We fight down-and-dirty if need be.
George stole a march on me. The Nicene Creed is what I meant. George used my phone’s spell-check feature.
I think your phone has been having relations with Paul Best’s keyboard. His electronic device is famous for this kind of error.
At least it didn’t add the Apollo Creed to the Niceness Creed. Then you would be required to preach from the Glory bible.
There are many American churches that believe more in the Niceness Creed than in any other.
You know, I used to believe that about the Episcopal church, that the people were just playing at Christianity without believing anything. Then I discovered the richness of their liturgy and the holding of their faith in community.
Unless you get to churches like the Unitararians, I am not sure you will find too many that have sluffed off believing in things or acceding to the right of individuals to completely pick and choose their own belief points and it still be all good.
Fundamentalists generally demand too much, at least of their leaders. What they don’t demand in doctrine is often made up in prejudice. Evangelicals do the same thing, just with softer sounding words to mask the prejudice.
But the more liberal churches that use a liturgical form really do have some solid beliefs and look to act on them in a responsible way. And acting on those beliefs for the benefit of others, whether the belief is “literal-factual” or “nonliteral but ideal,” can be lots more productive than a mere demand for mental assent.
Rtgmath, as usual, you say the very things I feel, but can’t form the thoughts. I am seriously looking into a liturgical church setting for these very reasons you state.
Eric, thank you for your kind words. You are very gracious.
I prefer Lt. Starbuck – Kara Thrace Starbuck, so we’re clear…
Oh wait…Apollo Creed. Not Captain Apollo.
How about Creed Night At The Apollo?
I’m not really a Creed fan. Post grunge just isn’t my thing. I wouldn’t mind some cool jazz at the Apollo, though.
Oh, thanks for clarifying which Lt. Starbuck. Yeah, wrong Apollo.
Dr. Eric, here is the best explanation of an Episcopal service (the Eucharist) I’ve found–
Thank you! I have saved the link and will look into it some more.
Going to the Episcopal Church has been very refreshing and healing.
Didn’t you learn anything in Fundystan? You don’t need refreshing, you need knee-knocking, come down to the “old Fashioned alter” conviction. Tears and public confession. If you don’t leave church with more standards to show your extra holiness, then you might as well have just stayed home!
Hmmmmm…………stay home. Not a bad option if Fundy First Baptist is the other option.
In the dorms at bju, we used to go to Bedside Baptist some Sunday evenings… In other words, we stayed in our bunk and relaxed. 🙂
Yep. I did it on occasion when I was in the dorms. Fortunately I was only in the dorms for 3 semesters!
I was Plymouth Brethren back then, and there was Overbrook Gospel Chapel to go to on Sunday evenings.
I see a kind of circular path in my church experience. Very young, in the Church of Christ. From 16 to 35 in the Plymouth Brethren, then till 53 in the IFB, and now in the Episcopal church. The PBs were originally a split from Anglicanism.
Of all of it, the Episcopal Church speaks the best to my heart. It isn’t perfect by any means. There are people of all kinds of political and religious viewpoints in it. But it has embodied the best ideals of a faith in community, a communion of Saints.
Unfortunately the stresses of fundamentalism are in play in Anglicanism the world over. Women clergy and LGBT clergy have stoked the fires of prejudice in Africa and Asia, as well as here in the US.
I always thought it was attending St. Mattress!
When I was at TTU in the early ’80s, we had to fill out a form in chapel Monday morning reporting where we went to church over the weekend. If it wasn’t Highland Park, it had to be with permission to be elsewhere. We all knew the obvious fake churches like “Roadside”, “Travelers”, “Caprice”. etc Baptist would be flagged. If you were traveling back to campus from a weekend back home, the safest thing to do was pick an actual street name from a town on the route and add “Baptist Church” to it.
Probably be a bit harder in these days of internet search engines, but in ’80-’82, it seemed to work okay.
—I guess technically the safest was to go to an actual church service, but that would add time to the trip we usually didn’t want to spare.
Just for context, the situation adressed was more then you catch from this clip. The man preached with his iPad inches from his face the whole time as he stared down at it holding it at neck level. It was distracting, but a good message. So the explanation really should have been offered (IMO by the guy who was actually preaching).
That said, the idea that using technology for preaching was wrong in any way really bothered me and I totally disagreed with it.