In a strange fit of unintentional honesty, Bob Gray sums up the issues with fundamentalism in four paragraphs:

[Noah’s sons] knew their father was not perfect. They knew their father was a sinner, drunk, and naked in that tent, but they did not want to see it even though they knew it was true. Anyone who is over you is there because God placed them there in your life, and if you are not careful you will miss the fact that God put them there and you will end up excusing your rebellion because of their imperfection. Here are some sons who said, “We know it’s true, but we don’t want to see it.”

I had the wonderful honor of preaching with Dr. Jack Hyles at least once a month for 22 years. Wait a minute, I knew he was not perfect because he was a human being like me, but I did not want to see his imperfection. I needed a hero. You need a hero. I knew he had weaknesses, but I did not want to see them. I knew he had sins, but I did not want to see them. I refused to allow myself to get that close.

Most divorces are caused because there is no mystique between husbands and wives anymore. Ladies, dress up for your husband like you would for guests in your home. Most church splits are caused because people become too close to each other. They begin to see all the warts. They see all the imperfections. They see all of the sins and here comes trouble in that church.
If you become too close to a staff member, let me tell you what you will find! As it is written, he is not righteous, he does not understand, and he does not seek after God. Let me tell you what you will find if you get too close to anyone. Romans 3:10-18 describes what you will find. Paul is speaking here about the Jews and the Gentiles. The Jews thought they were better than the Gentiles. The Apostle Paul is saying you are no better than the Gentiles. He describes every human in these verses. This is the biography of Dr. Jack Hyles, Dr. John R. Rice, Dr. Curtis Hutson, Dr. B. R. Lakin, Dr. Lee Roberson and the Dr. Tom Malone’s of this world.

We have lost our mystique! You are going to find that your wife has the poison of asps under her lips, she is unprofitable, a throat that’s an open sepulcher, a tongue that uses deceit, her mouth is full of cursing and bitterness, her feet are swift to shed blood, and wives who become too close to their husbands will find the same thing out about them.
Let me see the beautiful forests, but do not let me become too close to see the knots, broken branches, dead branches, serpents, insects or the spiders. Let me stay at a distance and see the autumn time as the forest puts her coat of many colors on like Joseph of old. Let me step back and see it! Don’t let me become too close to see the diseased and dying tree. These two boys said, “We know daddy is a sinner, but we do not want to be reminded that daddy is a sinner.”

Denial is a virtue. Truth is overrated. Fantasy and magical thinking is what we need more of.

389 thoughts on “Denial”

  1. The primary problem of Bob Gray’s comments is the “covering’ heresy he promotes. Merely the idea that a man “has been placed over” any other believer is not scriptural. Mutual submission is the primary idea when believers are relating to one another in the church.

    This whole notion of unquestioning obedience to a man is dangerous and leads to all kinds of abuses: Pride, despotism, dictatorial rule, passive believers, and the supression of the priesthood of the believer.

    Men like Bob Gray, Jack Hyles, Tom Malone, Curtis Hutson, John MacArthur, Mark Minnick, Tony Miller, Steve Anderson, and etc, have been lifted up on a high to a place where they are unapproachable, isolated and separated from God’s people. The laity is forced to stand at the bottom of Mt. Sinai while the Mog communes with God before bringing the message to the people with veiled face. Meanwhile, the admonitions of the New Testament like “Call no man Rabbi” go unheeded for the sake of our traditions.

    We continue to what is right in our own eyes.

      1. I see your point.

        I would put MacArthur and Minnick in one camp, and all the others in a different camp.

        It’s the principle of the separation between the clergy and laity that breeds so many of the problems we see today, no matter what camp you associate with within fundamentalism.

        On one side there is this fanatical idolizing of personality. On the otherside there is this sort of “reverential awe” afforded these great men of the sacred desk.

        1. I don’t know about Macarthur, but I know Minnick should not be in that group. If you break down your principle into two more distinctions marked by how the separation was created, I think we can say some men create it by telling everyone about how great they are and others by actually showing it. I would describe Minnick in that way. In 5 years, I never heard him pump himself up. My respect and admiration for him came only from his ability to teach me about God and teach me how to teach myself. I think we can also say that while the potential for problems may indeed exist when that sort of thing happens – however it happens – some men use it to fleece the flock and some do not use it. He used his massive political capital to switch away from KJV and show you aren’t necessarily reprobate just because you prefer to read Scripture in your native tongue. Others use their influence to sex minors.

        2. Minnick may not pump himself up, but he believes rape victims are responsible for the crimes against them. He believes that there is “something in the nature of children who are molested which calls the molester to them.” In other words, kids are asking to be molested.

          He’s asked at least 1 childhood sexual assault victim to leave his church & never return because she spoke out against her abusers.

        3. In a way, it’s true that there is “something in the nature of children who are molested which calls the molester to them.” But that means nothing unless you specify what the “something” is. It is the powerless condition of the children, or at least vastly unequal power between the molester and the molested. Most criminals choose crimes they think they can get away with.

        1. Yes I did, and for the aforementioned reason…

          “It’s the principle of the separation between the clergy and laity that breeds so many of the problems we see today, no matter what camp you associate with within fundamentalism.”

    1. Placing MacArthur in the same camp with these other man is absurd. It is the same as placing Apostle Paul in the same camp as Demas. Bigredone, you need to read your Bible and read the Bible some more and then open your eyes to see how Christ centered MacArthur is!

      1. Yes, Oh! Yes! Can’t you see, B.R.O., how Christ-centered Johnny Mac is? Read your Bible! He’s NOTHING like the IFB MoGs we mock here! What a teacher! What a radio personality! What an unmatched author of books! What a dynasty of Christian pastorship he has established! He founded his own seminary, for Heaven’s sake! What a stander-up for the hard truth! He ain’t ashamed to call Roman Catholics “unsaved,” no sirree! No indeed–he ain’t even afraid to call “unsaved” any ol’ one who disagrees with his particular soteriology! He knows just about all there is to know about God, and he’s most eager to set you on the right path, just like the Good Shepherd! He’s so often the point-man when controversies arise, and he won’t back down from a fight! Spunky brawler for the TRUTH, he is! I like to call his kind of approach to religion the “Buzzard Baptist Approach.” He’s always around when there’s a big stink! He’s the most Christ-centered person I know–so much so that I can’t hardly tell him from Christ–how dare anyone scrutinize this Man of God!?

        1. One thing I noticed about MacArthur was his grouping in his book “The Truth War” of New Age, emerging, and missional churches as if they were all the same or all similarly wrong.

          Having intimate knowledge of several missional church communities, he is very wrong on this.

        2. But PW, that’s the only rhetoric he knows; which is a real turnoff to people who went to college and had to study rhetoric. Basically it is the associative fallacy. He made it an art form in “Charismatic Chaos”.

        3. I stopped listening to MacArthur after reading this little tidbit:

          “Fifth, wives are to be workers at home. One of the hardest things for many contemporary wives to do is be satisfied with being a homemaker. Part of the reason is that modern appliances and other conveniences greatly simplify and reduce housework, and time that is not used for something constructive inevitably produces boredom, dissatisfaction, and often increased temptations. ”

          Basically, women aren’t happy at home because of that dangblasted dishwasher. Forget the lack of social interaction or the support of a real life social network that were available to previous generations of homemakers before the majority of wives worked. You want your wife to be really happy? Tell her to wash all the laundry for you and the kids by hand in the river!

        4. Oh yes, and education! Why should a woman need education if she is going to remain barefoot and pregnant as a stay-at-home wife, cook, dishwasher and slave?

          His comments are somewhere along the lines of how Muslims in Islamist countries regard their wives. Keep them covered up and ignorant and pregnant.

          Of course, nowhere in the Bible are men admonished to love their wives for their intellect and ability to interact in a social environment.

        5. As a SAHM, I think it’s asinine to think a SAHM doesn’t need an education. Besides the typical cooking and housework, I also take care of the finances (including doing taxes by hand each year) and homeschool the little ones. In addition, I’ve repaired most of the major appliances in our home when they’ve broken and also performed minor plumbing and auto repairs. Before being married, I didn’t know how to do ANY of this kind of stuff (not even the cooking!). It was a sharp learning curve requiring a lot of research which would be nearly impossible for someone who was deprived a decent education.

        6. Well, most of the SAHMs I know can’t do appliance repair and don’t do the taxes. Or didn’t.

          In any case, it used to be that women going to a Christian college were expected to major in Home Ec, Secretarial, Children’s Education. or Elementary Education. They expected the coursework to be lightweight as the focused on getting their MRS degrees.

    2. BigRedOne – – – – – I have a question about you listing Tom Malone along with the other names in your comment. Can you tell me more about how he is so like these other preachers? Have you heard him preach in the past? Did you go to his home church? Was he your pastor in the past? Did you go to his college? I’m just wonderin’.

      1. Once again…

        “It’s the principle of the separation between the clergy and laity that breeds so many of the problems we see today, no matter what camp you associate with within fundamentalism.”

        I know that each and every man I mentioned (did I mention they were men?) is placed on a pedestal by their particular camp. They all seem unapproachable by the laity and beyond scrutiny regarding their teachings by those who follow them.

        I conceded that there are varying camps within fundamentalism, but all have similar problems regarding this lifting up of personality and style of ministry. I submit that anything post-apostolic should open game for questioning, no matter how dearly you consider YOUR MAN, or how lofty he stands before your eyes.


        1. My FIL was quite familiar with Tom Malone, as he attended Midwestern Baptist Bible College (which Malone founded).

          My FIL actually liked the man, but from the tidbits I’ve heard, Malone definitely belongs in BRO’s grouping.

    3. Funny. The whole Protestant revolution was predicated on the idea of the Priesthood of the Believer. Even in Baptist circles, this doctrine is still important.

      What is astonishing is that IFB preachers have been subverting their own foundational principles to elevate their own status. While they decry a Pope with authority to speak as Christ to His Church, they heartily endorse mini-popes on a local church level. They elevate “God’s man” as a single individual, dismissing the idea that the people of God are God’s men and women!

      I have the right and the duty to search the Scriptures for myself. I do not have the duty to submit myself to everything the self-styled MoG declares. He is not more important than I am. His interpretation is only as valid as he can prove, and that proof includes a historical and grammatical context.

      Knowledge is power. Knowing what these MoGs are doing helps us escape their clutches.

  2. Oh dear, I come home from work, take off my oppressive undergarments, throw on a baggie t shirt and either boxers or lounge pants. “Tada! This is me dear, howya like me now?”. How in the world have we stayed married 31years? According to Pastor Gray we should have divorced by now. “Honey! we gotta get us some of that mystique back, Pastor says!”

    1. Since our oldest is about 8 months old, we still walk around in underwear or nothing or sweats and a t-shirt. Or just sweats. Or…you get the picture. That is sort of the point of being at home, yah?

    2. Only 30 1/2 for us. Now that we are empty-nesters, the dress code is pretty much non-existent, and often neither of us gets fully dressed after the evening shower. Next week our infantryman will be home on leave and his sisters are coming to visit. I have to remember to shut the door again when I shower.

      I kind of like the mystique of no mystique. We’ve reverted back to the first five years dressing (or not) like newlyweds.

        1. I know this isn’t the topic, but couldn’t help but notice. You guys jumped all over someone else for being a pro-Fox news hound. I can’t believe you let it slide these last two pro-war posters, as if being in military makes you some kind of “hero” for “fighting for our rights.” How about being honest and saying the wars in the Middle East are not “for our freedoms” and are a hopeless waste. Sorry, I’m just tired of being around fundies for too many years and to have to come on here are hear the same old crap.

        2. I honor the servicemen who do their duty and obey their lawful orders.

          But personally, I am anti-war. Yes, the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have been useless, worse than useless, an awful failure — in part because we did not understand the people or their culture and the mindsets of Islam, fundamentalism and tribalism.

          But I do not blame the soldiers for fighting the wars.

          I, myself, decided not to go into the military. My father was a career enlisted USAF man. By the time he retired, I pretty much hated the military.

          Then again, I did not have the mindset to go into law enforcement, either. I am an educator.

        3. @Stewie soldiers aren’t responsible for the motives for a war or get to choose whether we go to war or not. Soldiers are not responsible for the failure of US war policy. Soldiers do not form or reform societal structures or norms. How pointing out Fox New’s cheerleading of endless war for wars sake somehow necessitates badgering soldiers in your mind is a bit confusing.

        1. If I were a deity, that would be my choice. I’ve never asked God his favorite color, but I do think those 11 Bravos are being just a tad conceited. 😉

        2. I contend confident, not conceited. There is a difference. They are well trained for a job, and do that job well.

  3. What if we take the highly revered quote from David Hyles (posted on SFL – 6/9/14) and expound on it from the holy Word of Bobbeee Gray:

    “Great marriages exist where… ( delete: we are more in love with each other than with our expectations of each other

    and insert: … the purty, little wooman keeps her naggy, viperous mouth shut, dresses up like that purty June Cleaver when I come home for my dinner, always treats me with mystique, doesn’t get or stay too close (especially when I’m on the computer), and minds her own businees when I’m hidden away in my ‘prayer closet’.”

  4. Dear Stuff Fundies Like Reader:

    While off topic, SOMEbody recently replied to Dr. Grey’s blog post on Calvinistic heresy. It seems that someone pointed out that as he described them, the famed ‘five points’ poorly represented the Canons of Dort, and that the Canons were written when Calvin’s body was 49 years in the grave. It was also pointed out that Calvin came up with two theological ideas that were truly innovative. 1] Calvin was the first to describe the theory of vicarious atonement. 2] Calvin was the first to describe Jesus’ 3-fold position as prophet, priest and king.

    The writer had the audacity to ask which of those genuinely ‘Calvinist’ points Dr. Grey might care to repudiate.

    It seems that someone’s post vanished in less than 24 hours. Perhaps it was the obviously abusive language that produced this result.

    Christian Socialist

    1. Gee, I wonder who would have challenged such a learned MOG. Surely MOG was right and justified in taking down such a rebellious and ridiculous heretical post.

      CS, I love how you cause trouble.

  5. It’s just amazing to read this line of drivel…

    Some notes.
    Exposing ministry-disqualifying sin in a preacher is NOT rebellion; it is called obedience to the Word of God… (something Gray may want to try one day instead of teaching man-worship)

    Noah’s sons chose not to participate in any sin regarding their father, as Ham did. The Bible is rather quiet about exactly what Ham did, but Noah “knew what his younger son had done unto him” (which implies it was more than just looking at him). Noah’s sons covered up their father, but not their father’s sin.

    Gray may say “I needed a hero” – that tells us something about himself, but he is wrong to state “You need a hero.” – a hero is someone that you want to be like; Christianity teaches us that we are to be, by the grace of God, what He made us to be, not attempt to be a poor copy of somebody else. [If Gray wants to re-define “hero” as just “admire” – fine; there are many, many people whom I admire.]

    He says that he didn’t want to see Hyles’ “weaknesses” or “sins”… I can hardly believe he said that! He preaches against Billy Graham and Jerry Falwell — why is it OK to see their weaknesses and sins, but not this man you worship? Billy Graham never gave thousands of dollars to a married woman in marital difficulty, as Jack Hyles testified that he did for Mrs Nischick. Billy Graham never had a private line installed in his secretary’s house, as Jack Hyles did. Jack Hyles paid his ex-daughter-in-law’s child support with church funds. Even if Jack Hyles didn’t have an affair with Mrs Nischick, he ought to have been disqualified from pastoring by the other things he was doing. But no, let’s just keep our eyes closed, willingly blinded to what God would have us to do.

    His statement about divorce would be laughable, if it weren’t so tragic.

    Church splits: he MAY have a point here — but the wrong one of course. When church members get close, they will often talk about the church and it’s leaders, and they may discover that the pastor is covering up his son-in-law’s corruption, or that the pastor, who preaches against cable, has cable in his own home. Or that the pastor, who preaches strong on tithing, was not tithing…. and so on. It is not the closeness of the church members that is a problem – it is the leaders not being open and covering sin. Thus, Gray and others like him don’t want the church members to be close; they might find out that what they thought was an isolated incident wasn’t so isolated at all:

    Brother 1: “I went to the Pastor Gray about Bro H last night; Bro H seemed too close to my daughter. Pastor Gray assured me that this was the first time he had heard this; that Bro H was a good man, and he would keep an eye on him.”

    Brother 2: “I don’t quite know how to tell you this, but I went to Pastor Gray with the SAME issue six months ago regarding my younger sister.”

    …and so on. Whereas, if Bro 1 and Bro 2 aren’t close, they would not talk about it, and the cover-up can continue.

    I HAVE been close to some staff members; I am aware of their imperfections; however, if they don’t have a “cover-up” mentality, and love Jesus Christ, I don’t like them less — I like them more. It is the ones who deflect and make excuses for the leaders that make me despise them.

    Summary of the writing: “I prefer to worship Dr Hyles than know the truth”

    Mr Gray: Learn of Jesus – He said that if you would know the truth, the truth would set you free.

  6. This reminds me of a preacher I heard once who preached that women should not show up in the kitchen in the morning to fix hubby’s breakfast while wearing a bathrobe and with their hair in curlers. Instead, they should be dressed nicely, with their hair fixed and their makeup on.
    1. My husband pours his own bowl of cereal.
    2. My hair is naturally curly, so the curler issue is moot.
    3. Bathrobe? Nah, I just wear my pj’s.
    4. 6 month old babies are not willing to wait for Mom to put on makeup before she gives them breakfast.

    Just another example of how these people live in a fantasy world.

      1. Personally, I think they preach their fantasies (the G-rated ones anyway). They wish they could have a wife like June Cleaver, so they use the pulpit to promote their own selfish desires. Nothing new there.

        1. I would go so far as to say that they get most of their moralistic preaching material from watching old episodes of 1950-early60’s television, Andy Griffith is popular around NC for all the obvious reasons, Leave it to Beaver, Father Knows Best… all have built in moral lessons and illustrations that the M-O-g can easily tweek to make it look and sound as if it is something they actually experienced.

  7. I attended a Bible Study at church one day where the speaker said that before we have our “devotions” in the morning, we should “fix up” just like we would for a date. If we wouldn’t go on a date with our spouse or signficant other in pjs or without showering, we certainly shouldn’t show up for our private time with God dressed as if we don’t care.

    1. It’s nice that your church provides a place for mental patients to go on their day trips.

    2. Kinda weird that if that were so necessary that God didn’t bother including those instructions in His Holy Word for us to know that.

      How can people like this not see that they are like the Pharisees, laying heavy burdens that are hard to bear on people?

      1. It was actually the lawyers in Luke that our Lord was addressing here regarding heavy burdens. This was after he blasted the Pharisees for their love of greetings in the marketplace and front seats in the synagogues.

        Regardless, it’s all about putting burdens on people that God never intended for them to bear. These same people will not lift a finger to bear them themselves.

    3. As a mom of young ones– some days my prayer closet IS my shower. It’s the only time I’m alone and not under pressure to help someone.

      I’m pretty sure Jesus has seen it all before, and I bet He’s glad to hear from me on those crazy days even if I’m not gussied up.

    4. BULL Gipp’s Dress Code for Christians

      Dress UP, not Down You should have three states of dress. I do.

      There is your “Everyday,” or casual dress. – That is simply the way you dress everyday as you live your life. It shouldn’t be grubby or disheveled. Nor does it need to be flashy or upscale. Dress slacks or khakis are fine. Ladies, find the most “feminine” pair of men’s breeches or skin-tight blue jeans you can find. I’m sure God will understand.

      “Dress Down” – You dress “Down” to work. You should have some grungy cloths you wear to work in the garden or change the oil in your car. If you just said, “All my clothes are like that.” then you’re a slob! Clean up and step up to the next level of life. You shouldn’t spend your life looking like a bag-person! You should have “old clothes” or “work clothes” that you don’t make a practice of being seen in. Nothing shameful. Just “down,” a step below your everyday clothes.

      “Dress Up” – You should also have a level of dress that is above your everyday fare. If you just said, “I don’t dress up for anybody”you have a serious pride problem. You think you’re too wonderful to have to humble yourself and admit that there could actually be someone in existence that is above you socially. There is! His name is “the LORD.” You should “put on your best” to go to church. Not because it’s a fashion show. Not to out-dress someone else. But because you are going to the place that God may meet with you and you should humble yourself and dress so you won’t be embarrassed if He shows up.

      Men: wear a dress shirt and tie. That’s right, a tie, even if it’s just a clip-on. God is more important than you! Dress up for Him.

      Ladies: I don’t care if you think you have to dress like “Rosie-the-Riveter” during the week just to show how liberated you are, wear a dress to church. Why? Because even the God-hating world knows that a woman wears a dress when she dresses up. Watch the Academy Awards and see. Get a dress and wear it to church. And not a dress with a plunging neckline or slit up to the armpits. No one wants to see that “feminine” butterfly tattoo you have on your chest or the top of your hose. Dress up. Dress decent. God is more important than you! Dress up for Him.

      I was in a church recently where all the little girls wore dresses and all the little boys had suits & ties. It was cute. It was refreshing. It was parents teaching their children that church is important and they should dress accordingly. Right, I know, you don’t have the money to “waste” buying your son a suit he’s going to outgrow soon. Take a look around your house and see what you’ve truly been wasting money on! The truth is that you just don’t think God is important enough to spend money on clothes for Him. But when your child is sick you’ll run right to Him and almost demand He jump up and fix him up. You’re special. God isn’t. He’s a slave who is just there to do your bidding. Who dresses up for a slave?

      If you’re still too arrogant to think you ought to dress up for God, fine. Then don’t dress up for anyone else! Don’t dress up for a funeral. Don’t dress up for work. Don’t dress up for your kid’s wedding. Surely you do realize that God is more important than your child. If you’re too proud to dress up for church then dress for your child’s wedding just like you do for God! Please! Do it! Let the world see what a proud jerk you are. You owe it to them to show them how no one in the world is important enough for you to dress for. Then go home, look in a mirror and say, “Hello, GOD!”

      Can someone show me the Doctrine of Dressing Up in the Bible? Anyone? …
      I shake my head at the sheer level of phariseeism this one man spews forth.

      1. This idea of Christians must dress-up for church to worship God does nothing but distance God from the people. It gives the idea that God is who you visit Sunday mornings, Sunday nights, and Wednesday nights when you are all dressed up.

        Fundies don’t really understand that God is with us all the time. He see us at our best and our worst. He loves us in our brokenness. He loves us for who we are, not for the clothes we put on our bodies-however much or little that is.

        The sad thing is, I have fundy family members that would read Gipp’s “Doctrine of Dressing Up” and tout it as gospel truth. They would repost it on Facebook and add a long expose as to why it is so important for Christians to follow the “Doctrine of Dressing Up.”

        1. When people “dressed up” for church, they also dressed up for any other social gathering. Suits, ties, hats – these were normal. Those days are passed, largely replaced by khakis and a golf shirt, or maybe jeans and a plaid button down. Pretending that the social norm of fifty years ago somehow has a theological basis is snort-coffee-through-your-nose contemptible.

        2. @Admiral911: In my junior year of high school, I was part of a small group of students who sold enough raffle tickets to finance a trip to Hong Kong. Our teacher/group leader made us dress up for the entire trip. All of the flights. From Alaska.

          None of us liked him very much to begin with, but after that trip…

        3. Admiral911 says:
          June 14, 2014 at 10:43 pm
          People used to Dress up to go on an airplane as well

          Yep, that was PCC back in the 90’s warning all of us about BJU and their stand on the KJV issue. That is what the Scripture was talking about, right? The KJVO issue was near and dear to the hearts of the Apostles.

        4. Ben Padraic says:
          June 14, 2014 at 5:19 pm
          Didn’t somebody warn us to, “beware of the leaven of the Pharisees”?

          My last post was in response to BP, not A911, though I’m sure the issue of dressing up to go on Airplanes was critical to 1st Century Christian thinking!

          George is to blame for the copy and paste error!

        5. @ B.R.O.

          Short answer:

          If something is not either clearly stated in scripture or else clearly and logically inferred as well as having been taught by the apostles, it should absolutely not be taught as doctrine. That of course includes KJVO teaching.



      2. Thanks for the link.

        It looks like Mr. Gipp has some other interesting thoughts:
        “Call your pastor, “Pastor”… I don’t care what that devil Rick Warren told you…” “Even your doctor isn’t called of God.” Well, your pastor is more important than you are.”

        If we were to uncritically accept Gipp’s statements, we might reasonably come to the conclusion that God doesn’t have any special plan or purpose for anyone’s life unless they are a pastor. We might even be led to believe that God loves pastors more than He loves the rest of us. It would be interesting (but probably not enjoyable) to listen to Sam attempt to logically prove his statements from scripture.

        On a somewhat related note, one might wonder if these guys have any idea how they mimic and exceed some of the worst aspects of Catholicism– right down to the relics. On that note, maybe a piece of “Holy Lester’s” thigh bone should have been placed with the fuselage in order to provide an additional draw for the faithful who might want to visit and pray for miracles. Leaving the Catholic church was possibly one of the hardest things I ever did. Incredibly, guys like Sam Gipp actually make me half seriously think about going back. If I had to have a pope, I’d rather it be Francis than Gipp or any of the other fundy Mogs. While there are some important doctrinal points about which I believe Catholic teachings to be unbiblical, one of the best men I’ve ever known is a Catholic priest– he seems to exhibit the fruits of the Spirit and appears to have found a peace that eluded me when I was Catholic. In any case, I certainly don’t want to insult current Catholics and I apologize for the angry rambling.

        1. Leaving the Catholic church was possibly one of the hardest things I ever did. Incredibly, guys like Sam Gipp actually make me half seriously think about going back.

          I know I’m not supposed to say this here…but you have just been added to my prayer list. 😉

        2. Yep, I’m not insulted, either. 😀 (Sorry; posted before I saw elfdream’s response.)

      3. Did Bull Gipp really say it’s OK for ladies to wear skin-tight bluejeans?
        That surprises me. The rest of his hogwash doesn’t.

        I’ve got news for him: God may meet you anywhere. The Lord doesn’t just live in church.

        1. Just as I am, dressed in my best.
          I look better far than all the rest.
          Fit to be with Thee I’m impressed!
          O Lamb of God I come, I come.

          Just as I am, A preacher proud
          Who from the pulpit Screams aloud.
          I’m the example for All the crowd!
          O Lamb of God I come, I come!

          Just as I am And waiting not
          To scrub someone else’s blackest spot
          Since of my own sins I have naught
          Oh Lamb of God I come, I come!

          Just as I am, to help them grow
          Their daughters I will fully know.
          And with offering plates so full of dough
          Oh Lamb of God I come, I come!

        2. “I’ve got news for him: God may meet you anywhere. The Lord doesn’t just live in church.”

          Exactly, BG!

          What was Moses wearing when God spoke to him out of the burning bush? What was Paul wearing on the road to Damascus? For that matter, what was the Samaritan woman wearing when she met the Jesus at the well? Not only this, but Sam’s statements neglect the fact that God is omnipresent and that NT theology teaches us that the Holy Spirit indwells believers.

          Beyond that, Gipp’s little screed could leave someone with the impression that Gipp and men like him are the primary if not only conduits that God uses to speak to not only non-believers, but also believers. It’s hard to say what’s more appalling, Gipp’s pomposity, pride, and arrogance, or his level of theological understanding.

      4. Thanks for this Word of Wisdom, Don. The last time God and I got together I forgot to wear a tie. Is this why He stood me up on our last date?

      5. 1. What’s a “bag-person”? I’ve heard of “bag lady” but not this.
        2. He references Rosie the Riveter? Seriously? Does anyone know any woman who wears pants because Rosie the Riveter did? Then he adds a comment about women trying to show how liberated they are as if he’s still in the 60s.
        3. Not all women at the Academy Awards are in dresses.
        4. His “answer” to someone about not having money to spend on a suit for their young boy was dismissive and condescending (and obnoxious).
        5. Anyone who doesn’t agree with him = proud jerk.

        This isn’t the Gospel.

        1. Rosie the Riveter was a character from the early 1940s.
          That’s about right in the middle for how contemporary most Fundy preachers’ cultural references are.

        2. Hey, the ’40s were cool! Don’t diss the ’40s. Jitterbug, Greatest Generation, shorter skirts (than in the ’30s), Big Band, swing, jazz, Gone with the Wind (well, that was 1939, but close enough), the Andrews Sisters singing “Rum and Coca-Cola” and “Boogie-Woogie Bugle Boy”….you get the idea.

      6. If I still had to wear hose and dresses every Sunday, I can pretty much guarantee I wouldn’t be going to church very much.

        1. Well, I’m not big on pantyhose, but I love me my maxi-dresses. I wear ’em to the office all the time. It’s like wearing a nightgown to work. What’s not to like?

      7. Yep, and so it was for John Bunyan. I believe Pilgrim’s Progress addresses this very critical issue concerning which we all should comply with the utmost care.

        After all, didn’t Jesus tell us how important the outward appearance was to Him? He did say to paint to sepulchres polar white, didn’t He? And don’t forget that we need to pray out loud in the court yards so that everyone knows know spiritual we are so that all will know who to go to when we are in crisis…That is what Jesus told us, right?

        Oh yes, I’m sure Jesus’s disciples bathed before each and every time they met with Him. I’m sure that’s what He commanded and required of them, That little thing where Jesus demonstrated humility by washing their feet was merely an analogy and totally unnecessary since they had already bathed and, therefore, were squeeky clean.

      8. I love it when cultural practices take precedence over the Bible. Like dressing nice, nice haircut, no smoking, no beating your slaves, no treating women like property, etc.

    5. This idea about dressing up to have devotions in the morning is stupid. GOD is our FATHER, Abba, Father, my sons do not need to dress up to talk with me. The President’s children do not need to dress up to talk with him…The children of Kings can go see their father in their pj’s and tousled hair.

  8. I think one of the key misleading factors here is the use of the word ‘imperfection’ to cover a whole range of misdemeanours. We all know we aren’t perfect and have many flaws. However the term imperfection could be used to cover a personal lack of ability in an area – being a bad cook for example. Or it could be used to refer to major moral lapses. Both are technically ‘imperfections’.
    It could be considered ungracious to point out that your host isn’t a perfect cook. But to apply the same principle of overlooking someones ‘imperfections’ when these are sins that damage other lives is disingenuous, to say the least.

    1. Imperfections=felonies in the IFB. The little things are just others “judging” them. But if they mention “imperfection” what they are really saying are heinous crimes. So it seems anyway. It is sickening at on many levels.

  9. I only have a second . . . just wanted to say . . . when I get all nakiddy drunk my Helpmeet covers my shameful parts and doesn’t say a word. HAYMEN!!!

      1. Great. Song.

        Nico is too young to know it probably. But I like the way you relate songs to posts. Let me know if you come to Alaska. We’d have a few drinks. Ooops. Damn. I made someone stumble.

        1. My brother lives in Alaska.
          I don’t know if I’ll get there this year, though.

        2. Big Gary, as I recall your bro is in Fairbanks. I’m 40 road miles north of Anchorage (Palmer). I messaged Darrell asking for help with setting up an account. I can’t figure the damn thing out.

        3. Yep, Fairbanks.
          Palmer is waaaay down south.
          I want to go this year, but it’s a really long trip, and not cheap …

        4. Oh, not That far down south (350 miles from Fairbanks). It’s a 6 hour drive. The country is just bigger up here.

          I lived in Barrow for about 10 years, and it’s 300 air miles north of the Arctic Circle. Going to Fairbanks was going down South for us, back then. Been here the past 10 years. So if you travel to Fairbanks we need to get together.

  10. Wow. What a revelation!

    Our troubles are because we have lost our mystique! Somehow we have allowed people to see behind the mumbo-jumbo, the rhetoric, the lies, the stooge in the pulpit. We should have been more careful. We should have paid more attention to stagecraft, to having trained handlers only allow the leadership to be seen in pristine situations and circumstances.

    We have to tell people to ignore the imperfections and deceits and go on believing all the same. Yes, that man in the pulpit slept with your daughter! But who are you to condemn God’s man! David sinned, yet he was still God’s man on the throne! Ignore the situation and go forward, remembering that God put that man as your authority, right or wrong, and you are to follow him as you would follow Christ!

    If your situation, your experience differs from the Word of God, throw your experience away and trust the preaching! Your experience lies to you. It deceives you by making you think the Bible is not true! God’s man has the answers. Though a sinner himself, he can tell you how to save your marriage, for those who cannot do, preach!

    And all God’s people said “Amen” and drank the Koolaid!

  11. Relationships fail because there’s not enough “mystique”? Oh really? If you want mystique in your relationship, try role-playing the X-Men. If you want a stable, loving relationship, you need love, respect and communication. Full stop.

        1. hhhissssssss… fantasies about a hairy chick wielding sharp instruments in a sexual setting… *shudder* …while “The Legend of John Wayne Bobbitt” plays softly in the background.

        2. I was looking at a humanities book one day when I was going to college, and there was a picture of an ancient statue that had the tip of his you-know-what broken off. The guy sitting next to me leaned over and whispered to me “early Bobbitt.”

        3. I still say the natural name for Bob Jones U.’s sports teams would be “the Bobbits.”

  12. Dear Bob Gray Senior:

    RED HERRING! You’ve given us a whole school of red herring!

    The issue is not perfection, how flawed we are, mystiqueless men with frumpy wives, but the doctrine of ordination. If you can’t see the difference, stop the pretense of being a Biblical commentator.

    Christian Socialist

    PS: I see you’ve refurbished Ro 3:10ff to cast wives in their true, Biblical light. Slick move! Whatever inspired it, I wonder …

  13. Either Bob is trying to cover up for himself, or to defend his old man, who is deceased, and with Jack Hyles. Two perverts. And if there is a hell….

  14. “Most divorces are caused because there is no mystique between husbands and wives anymore. Ladies, dress up for your husband like you would for guests in your home. ”

    Ah so that’s why Jack Schaap ended up having sex with a 17 year old girl – the little woman wasn’t dressing up for him at home!!

    1. I know a close relative of his wife who says she was the most perfect wife on the planet that she ever knew. Did EVERYthing right. Didn’t skip a beat. UGH!! Coolest thing ever….I am far from perfect. My hubby of almost 25 years has NEVER found another woman or child to call his “wife”. So thankfully I don’t have to do all she did…..and still lose my hubby.

      The sick part of being a perfect wife is ENTIRELY too much effort for me. I am who I am. Take me or leave me!!

  15. Gray “needed a hero” because he never fully grasped the concept that he should look up to JESUS. He should attempt to be like JESUS. Since he’s a narcissist, being like JESUS wouldn’t be any fun. Jesus didn’t yell, berate, cast stones, and obsess about the rules. Jesus did exactly the opposite. He washed feet, and forgave, only showing disdain for the Grays and Hyles of his time, the Pharisees.

    So of course he loved Jack Hyles. To guys like Gray, Jack Hyles was a lot more appealing god to worship than Jesus ever was.

    If Gray pastors a church, they should give him a retirement gift of two giant red shoes, a red nose that doubles as a horn, and a really tiny car. Then they should send him on his way.

      1. Actually, only laughed at the last paragraph, of course. The first two were well written and true.

    1. Gray DID pastor a church; he claimed that God told him to step down ONLY if the church called his son as pastor.

      So, like good, obedient sheeple, they did, and the son now pastors his father’s church. It’s one way, I guess, of ensuring that your pension won’t be cut off.

  16. Heartbreaking that people say they follow Jesus yet their lives do not reflect his teaching.

  17. “Conceal, don’t feel
    Don’t let them see
    Be the good [Fundy] you always have to be…”

  18. According to Bob, we should just trash all the ministerial qualifications listed in the epistles. I find that insulting after serving alongside so many wonderful people during my 15 years as a missionary. They were faithful spouses, excellent parents and lovers of God. Most of my pastors have been the same. The two who were involved in affairs set themselves up by isolating themselves and trying to be the exalted MOG. Gray’s statements dismiss the efforts of many godly ministers, both men and women.

  19. It’s unfortunate that, while there are scriptural remedies to address the sin and faults in the lives of fellow believers, Bob Grey didn’t discuss any of them in this rather substantial quote. Instead he offered up extra-biblical opinion. Very unfortunate.

  20. I wonder why Gray and other Fundy mogs never seem to remember I Peter 3:7, where husbands are told to learn their wives and show them honor and respect. In an understanding way tells me I am supposed to get to know her needs, wants, and desires, then act on them. If you need mystique, that’s fine too. It will always be there. The missus and I have been friends now for over 33 years, married 30, and I still learn new things about her. (Or maybe re-learn some of them)
    Respect as to a weaker vessel doesn’t mean women are weak the way we normally use the word. When I teach this passage, I explain it as the men are the Waffle House mug while women are the fine china cup from Harrods. Both have strengths and weaknesses. They will both hold a cup of coffee or tea, and will both break if dropped.

    Fundy mogs with their pick and choose which Scripture to teach have broken many china cups and cracked a lot of diner mugs, when both need their own proper care.

    Of course, the last part of 1 Peter 3:7 tells us that the wife is equal to the husband. I guess that is why this verse doesn’t count.

  21. I’m going to get a new cat and name it Mystique. I’ll make it an indoor only cat so that way we will be sure never to loose it.

      1. “Loose” can work there — you won’t be letting her loose. Okay, I’m stretching it.

  22. This is a predictable consequence of legalism. With legalism, you can’t accept yourself, can’t accept you are a sinful being, so you turn a blind eye to your own sins or explain them away. Therefore, you can’t accept any sins in anyone else. This means you can’t get close enough to others to see their sin if you want to still like / love that other person.
    The only remedy for this is to accept God’s grace for yourself first, then you can see others in the light of grace.

  23. So, I “knew” a man for 41 years, over 36 of those years I was married to him. I had three beautiful children with him. I found out 8 years ago that he had been cheating on me for at least 13 years, living a totally different life apart from our married/family life together. He begged me, and I chose to stay with him, partly because he came down with stage 3 colon cancer. Eight years later, our son finds self-made porn on his computer, and I discover that he has been with several women since he begged me to stay with him. He has lived a total lie with me for virtually all of our married life together, and I’m supposed to “look the other way?”!!! This is not only dangerous advice, but unbiblical, as well. Jesus sees our faults, and loves us anyway. While we should not make a public spectacle of others’ faults, we do not ignore them. Jesus did not ignore our faults! He died because of them! Solutions to problems do not come by denying them. Should we tell to someone who has been raped, molested as a child for years, or beaten and abused by a parent or some family member to deny the perpetrator’s sin? Sin stops when it gets exposed. Forgiveness happens after the sin is exposed and dealt with. The law was given to expose sin, so that we could see how much we need a Savior–how much we need forgiveness. There is a place for covering one’s sin, but healthy relationships are ones where sin is exposed within the relationship and DEALT with. I hate divorce. But I have been forced to go through a divorce because the sin was not dealt with properly. I pray that those who are being tormented by someone else’s sin do not read the above article and think that it is true. If you are in an abusive relationship, expose the sin, get help from someone you can trust, and then work on forgiving the perpetrator.

    1. WOW! You have been through a lot. I am so sorry for that. I canNOT even imagine all of that!

      You are 100% right in what you have said. Sadly, the IFB don’t get that. I totally agree with you.

  24. Makes one wonder if he’s about to be found in some indiscretion, and he’s setting the stage to blame his wife and to coerce his followers into accepting that the indiscretion was just a proof of his humanity, and should be overlooked.

  25. Does Mr Gray ‘s argument seem … accidentally postmodern?

    1. That said, much of my own thinking is postmodern. But regardless, it helps to recognize a flim-glam when presented with one.

      1. It is SO amazing how many people are okay with that sick bag of flesh!! I had a couple IFB preachers in my living room a year ago going at it against each other on absurd ideas. But I had the unfortunate opportunity to hear one say “I know a lot of people don’t like Schapp, but I am here to tell you, he was a great man and did so much for God…..and boy he is doing a lot of good in the prison”. I thought I was going to hurl my lunch. UGH!! The absurdity of stupid humans get on my last nerves!!

        1. Oh and the one who is in love went to HA and attended FBC for years.

          When the Schapp saga broke and I discovered so much about Hyles and the fools from there, his wife said to me …”Oh please do not tell me anything you found out about Hyles. I loved that man and I just don’t want to know anything”. Well there ya go, that is EXACTLY what it wrong with IFB…..don’t tell me a thing!!! ARG!!! I am the opposite. I NEED to know the crap. Glad I found out too.

        2. How disgusting that preacher’s views are. I literally HATE how they pick on evangelicals (and others) over technology or worship styles but excuse their own leaders of the grossest perversions. It makes me SO MAD.

  26. In other words, retain harmony by keeping the proverbial mask on. This is why Christians are regarded as hypocrites.

    1. At some of us are willing to admit to being so. It’s never easy to point out one’s own flaws, but it’s still better than denying them. 😕

  27. There is a simple way to end the MoG worship once and for all:

    Transport Mr. Bill Gothard, Mr. Jack Schaap, Mr. Doug Phillips, and Mr. Chuck Phelps to San Diego California. Place all four on a chain gang. Make them fill potholes from San Diego to Bangor, Maine. Set aside 4 to guard them on this trip. Auction off the guard slots with the proceeds from the auction going to organizations focusing on helping victims of pastoral abuse.

    Sounds pretty simple to me.

        1. ooos, sorry for the duplicate post. I thought the first one had messed up, so I re-posted. So sorry!

  28. Anybody who acknowledges that there is sin but states that the way to deal with it is to ignore it has no knowledge of the gospel.

    How can any of these “pastors” be saved?

    1. THAT is a question I have been asking more and more.

      Do they believe the gospel they preach? If so, they would not neglect it, they would be sure to “get saved.” If they did not believe it, it would be a certainty that we should not believe them.

      On the other hand, if they *do* believe the gospel they preach, how is it that they are so easily able to do such wickedness without either God disciplining them early and publicly for it, or without any remorse? Is there no Holy Spirit indwelling them? Does the Holy Spirit not work in their hearts and lives to conform them to the image of Christ? Is the message they preach that lacking in power and effect?

      Could it be the gospel they preach isn’t the gospel after all? Pray a prayer, “accept Christ as your Savior,” Romans Road, Sinner’s Prayer. “once saved always saved,” the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth …. If the gospel has power, then where is it?

      I’d certainly like to know. Something is terribly messed up and it brings doubt and disrepute to God and to the gospel.

      1. Dear rtgmath:

        You wrote: ‘Is there no Holy Spirit indwelling them? Does the Holy Spirit not work in their hearts and lives to conform them to the image of Christ? Is the message they preach that lacking in power and effect?’

        I reply: What a thing to say — on Trinity Sunday, no less. Your questions are inspired.

        You wrote: ‘Could it be the gospel they preach isn’t the gospel after all? Pray a prayer, “accept Christ as your Savior,” Romans Road, Sinner’s Prayer. “once saved always saved,” the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth …. If the gospel has power, then where is it?’

        I reply: Another bullseye! What you are describing is not Christian faith but Gnostic heresy. As I have said before, so I say now, that much that is called ‘fundamentalism’ is untouched by the gospel and stands in need of conversion to Jesus Christ.

        Christian Socialist

        1. The messages they give are mixed. They tell themselves that salvation is God saving them from sin’s penalty — the fires of hell — while giving them license to continue sinning. They tell other people that salvation is God saving them from doing the sin altogether.

          We see that in their implementation of their morality in social policy legislation. They want to outlaw certain sins, even at the expense of the civil and political rights of others. But they won’t include themselves. They will always give themselves an out.

          Maybe they think that the Law and its penalties is the only way to free one from sin’s practice? But it sounds like people “walking after their own lusts.”

        2. The whole setting is founded upon an impossible standard to keep.

          Like so: Christ died for our sins. Why? Because it’s impossible for us not to sin. So the creator of the universe had no other choice than to redeem us all by coming down himself as someone else to die for us. Now that you acknowledge Christ’s death, congrats! You’re part of the club. Remember how we told you that it’s impossible for you not to sin? Well, now that you believe, you suddenly have the ability to no longer sin, so you better straighten the hell up and don’t take his death for granted.

        3. Dear rtgmath:

          I’m ‘saved’ from my sin, so sin doesn’t really matter … Again, you describe one form of the Gnostic heresy as it is reborn in many fundamentalist situations.

          Dear KeepOnAndCarryCalm:

          Thank you for your ‘impossible standard’ point. I’m posting to draw attention to it because this matter may be more significant than seems at first glance. This question was asked before as you see from this text.

          ‘…why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear’ [Act 15:10]?

          These ‘impossible standards’ are a ‘test.’ But who is tested? It isn’t the people on whom we place them, says Peter. Rather, they put God himself to the test. Fundies break BIG taboo.

          Blessings on you both!

          Christian Socialist

    2. I went to a pastor once — not my own pastor as I was finding a church — for counsel regarding a besetting sin. This “godly” man told me that when we confess our sin, God says to us, “Shh… I already know about it. Let’s sweep it under the rug here.”

      I left, very concerned. Two months later, it was exposed that the pastor had been having an affair.

  29. Fundie standards:

    Concerning the world: The world is evil! Look at all the evil done in the world! Only Christ can fix you, and you can only be fixed by doing what we say!

    Concerning their church: Yes, people in the church do evil things. That’s sin nature. Try not to bring it up. Just say that Christ is still working in them, because he obviously hasn’t finished. Haymen?


  30. Some observations:
    1. I seriously doubt that Mr. Gray is actually a believer. These paragraphs clearly exhibit an ignorance of the gospel. The beauty of the gospel is that we all WERE liars, murderers, adulterers, deceivers, etc. etc. BUT now we have the righteousness of Christ. We still do wrong, but we are no longer identified as children of darkness. And, this is what fundamentalism gets wrong over and over and over again. Our identity has been changed.
    Sure, we still sin, but that is where grace comes in. Instead of sin being our
    identity, grace is. Our sin is not who we _are_ it is what we do.

    In his article he says, “Tell me about David when he was so happy when the Ark came back, but don’t tell me and don’t major on what happened with Bathsheba and Uriah. Please allow me to go backwards and place the garment over the Bathsheba and Uriah incident.” The incredible narcissism of that is staggering. He is not only rewriting the scripture he claims to uphold, but he is further discounting the truths that come from David’s sin (Psalm 51, for example).

    2. This article is incredibly misogynistic. In his paragraph that begins “You are going to find that your wife has the poison of asps,” he is comparing all women to prostitutes. Is that his view of women? Merely including the phrase “and wives who become too close to their husbands will find the same thing out about them” certainly does not balance out this incredibly disturbing tirade against women.

    1. Don’t get too close to your wives — so you can get closet to other men’s wives without being caught?

    2. You make some great points! You’re so right about how his off-hand comment about husbands does not mitigate in any way his extremely intensely vituperative words about wives.

      1. I’m starting to think that misogyny is so much a part of Fundy culture that Fundamentalist preachers can’t see it, any more than a fish can notice that it is wet.

        1. I think so.

          I was thinking about why my wife is still so comfortable with the IFB church I used to attend (and which she still does). She is a secretary for the Episcopal Church where I worship. She sees the difference in how they treat women. She sees the differences in a great many areas. But she seems *more* comfortable with the IFB church.

          She saw what I went through, or part of it. How it is that she did not feel personal outrage at the public humiliation I endured I cannot fathom. She isn’t a “doctrine” person, and 90% of IFBers aren’t. Like them, she would stare at me if I asked her to tell me about a doctrine the church has. And she can’t remember what the preacher preached about 15 minutes after the message is over. Conversations with friends have overridden what would have made a significant impression.

          But her grandfather was a fundamentalist itinerant preacher (an evangelist). Somehow she has been so immersed in the whole system from childhood that it all seems right to her.

          Looking at it from that perspective, if it weren’t for the direct abuse, I might still be there and happy with it (though I am one of the 10% to whom doctrine is important – hey, I am a teacher of mathematics, after all!). I would attribute failings not to the system itself, but to the Devil or ungodly forces or what all.

          Because ultimately, for most people, “faith” is a cultural component and not really a separate, personal awakening to the idea of a relationship with God. This enculturation has created a stagnant pond of spiritual sludge that refuses to change at its deepest layers.

    3. Like most people, he would like the Bible a lot better if he could cut out the parts he doesn’t like. Unlike most people, he thinks that’s a valid way to interpret the Bible.

  31. We now have a written record of the commendation of the leaven of the Pharisees which is hypocrisy so clearly stated by a ‘leading’ fundamentalist! Go ahead, don’t get too close and see what’s really behind the mask! Wow! Truly unreal advice, but sadly, only too typical.

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