Being Without Sin

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone! In the wake of recent events, this phrase has been taken up like a battle cry by those who wish to defend the sinful actions of a man who (ironically enough) has spent his entire career throwing stones. It’s odd that fundamentalists aren’t concerned with who is pelting the Catholics, the gays, or men-with-Calvinist-looking-beards with rocks. If the rule was that one can never speak out about sin until they themselves are perfect then we can only assume by their proclivity for judgmentalism that fundamentalist pastors are all perfect and rule churches full of sinless people.

Even as we watch them defend the indefensible,however, it’s hard not to feel a pang of sympathy for the people who have believed a lie and followed the Deceiver. When your pastor is the final authority on what God says to the point where he himself attains the status of a demigod then it must be a crushing blow to realize that he is nothing but an idol with his feet stuck in the mire. It is a hard thing to see your Dagon broken to shivers and to realize that you’ve been played for a fool.

All is not lost, however. Perhaps love may win a few at last and two or one will truly begin to renounce their worship of men and their trust in the arm of flesh. Maybe a few will even depart from that place and find a strange and glorious freedom for their souls. But I fear that many will still stand hurling the stones of self-righteousness, and hatred, and fear even as they search for a new idol to prop in place of the one that now lies shattered in the dust.

Christ, have mercy.

329 thoughts on “Being Without Sin”

  1. My sister goes to FBC, her children go to the school, her eldest daughter goes to HAC. They are considering removing their kids from the school, sending their daughter to a different college (not PCC thank God), and changing churches over this. She and her husband are not big wheels in the church, but they have been very active with a bus route, prayer circles and such. Even if JS were innocent, which I doubt, what this has done is already splitting the church.

  2. If you only knew what happened it would make your skin crawl. If you only knew the truth about jack Schaap you would never trust a human again. If you only knew how demented this girl is to say I see nothing wrong with this I love him would make your heart break for Cindy. If you only knew……. Very thankful for a God that never changes, a Christ who is still risen, and a book that will always give strength.

    1. Most thinking people in Britain do not consider the Daily Mail to be the most reliable source. However, if there is a scandal to be reported, you can bet that the Mail will be in their quickly!

  3. It is heinous, in my view, to insist that the young woman involved in this incident is somehow at fault. Anyone who believes/promotes this view is just as creepy — and just as wrong — as the creeps who inflict this damage on their victims.

    It matters not if she initiates inappropriate conduct in any form. It is up to the adult man (especially when he’s 54) to show self-discipline, common sense, restraint, love for his wife and respect for his marriage vows and stop such activity.

    It is tiresome to see people act as if men are some kind of lower-level species on the evolutionary ladder who are unable to control themselves in the presence of a woman. This thinking is what leads some religious systems to keep their women covered from head to toe and out of schools and the front seat of cars. If men can’t control themselves around women they should stay inside and let women run the world.

    Ladies, if you hold that this teenage girl is guilty, you need to stop and take a long, hard look at yourselves. You are part of the rape mindset.

    1. This is my first time chiming in on this issue and I am possibly responding in the wrong area, although I can see why another poster or two mentioned that the bloggers here seemingly care nothing of morality or Christian values. The attitude that’s portrayed is one of ONLY being concerned in these types of cases if there was some type of technical illegality going on. It’s as if no one could care less if a pastor has an affair or not. Heck, more power to him (or her) if he (or she) does! The posters seem to only be concerned about any illegalities and it’s as if if a pastor has an affair with a senior citizen then there is no problem and no one here would barely notice.

  4. I saw someone ask “where was God in all of this, washe playing dead or did he just not care”…I personally believe God allowed this to happen because the congregation was putting their faith in the wrong person…they were putting their faith in Schaap or the church rather than Christ…He was probably trying to get people to remember who is the one whe they should be putting their faith in…a man who is capable of falling into sin, or Jesus Christ, who is completely perfect and who died to pay for our sins. Like when God destroyed the earth with the flood because of how people were living or there’s other Biblical examples of God sending down punishment for how humans act to show them who God is and where he stands! I hope people see this message from God…jack schaap and no other man will get you to heaven…only christ himself can…

  5. Semp…how dare u say we have a mindset of a rapist…that’s just sick and its a totally different story. This girl is NOT underage, if you read the LATEST news on the topic (for the lady who said yesterday that the 1st news is the most reliable, ur an idiot! Since when is the 1st news the most reliable? The last news is the most reliable because they have all the corect info by then, where as the 1st news only has a fraction and assumptions so far), also, my statement was made because everyoe was saying that poor girl like she was unvolunteerily raped! She wasn’t! She may have wanted it! She was on board. She wasn’t made to have sex or touched in a way she didn’t want! U guys are making her seem like she was raped and he wasn’t! Like this incident is going to effect her life as it would for someone who UNWILLINGLY got raped or molested! You people are true baptists…screw up everyones words and try to make pople look dumb and like they don’t know what they’re alking about…people like you are the kind I hated growing up in church…people who think if u don’t share an opninion, ur going to hell and ur lower than u! Well, ur completely ignorant!

    1. Krista, if you say that a minor female is responsible for the actions of an adult man — more than three times her age in this instance — than you are part of that mindset. Are you saying that Jack Schaap is incapable of controlling his sexual urges? Is that what you’re saying? If it’s not, please clarify.

      I don’t care if she was standing there buck naked with “come hither” eyes. If she was being a “strange woman” it was his obligation to remove himself from the situation. If he is unable to control himself he has ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS being around females. The Bible tells men to stay away from the “strange woman”.

      I don’t think that people who disagree with me are going to hell. I have no idea where you got that idea, as I certainly never stated it. I never stated it because I never held it. I have on more than one occasion changed my mind when I learned more information about situations. If you can prove, with actual physical evidence, that the young lady in question was of legal age to indulge in sexual relations with Jack Schaap, and she indeed did so willingly and voluntarily, that still means he is wrong because he cheated on his wife. Even if he was single, it is still wrong because fornication is prohibited in the Bible. I still say he was in the wrong, regardless of her age.

      Anyone in a position of power should not be abusing that power. Even if nothing is directly stated or otherwise implied, a pastor/counselor/teacher should not engage in sexual relations with a church member/ counselee/student. The power is still there and the victim may feel powerless to avoid the situation. Unless you’ve been in that situation you cannot possibly truly understand what it means to be there.

      You appear to be very angry. I do not mean to anger anyone. I will speak truth to this situation because it seems so many do not want to know.

      1. That’s why I’m angry…you “christians” are calling me names and saying I have a mentality of a rapist! I have a baby boy and would NEVER harm him and if anyone did anything sexually (just the thought of it sickens me) I will be out for that persons blood and won’t stop til I get it…I’m have been considered a prude cuz I don’t “give it up”. I would never rape or molest a person, child or adult!

        The stories I have read which the words came from eddie wilson, the spokesman of that church, the girl was NOT under age but she was close enough to question it and investigate! Or so they thought…as of this morning and that’s what I had read yesterday.

        I keep seeng people say “even if she walked in buck naked”, well, we has humans have urges and you can’t tell me you live a perfect life and don’t give in to urges sometimes..or have thought of it…I’m NOT sticking up for schaap and Semp…I have tried to clarify in just about all my posts, but everyone is too hard headed to understand what I’m saying. This girl is NOT under age…yes the age differnce is huge and yes, he’s sick for persuing a girl so much younger than he is and yeshe is sick because of the meer fact that he is married and a pastor and should be setting a good example for the church and people that see him. He did wrong in any way u see it, but what I’m saying is that you guys are saying this poor girl, her life is going to be so messed up now cuz he brutially raped her…he didn’t brutally rape her…they had a relationship going. She knew what she was doing…that’s why god gave us consciences! Maybe she was manipulated…we don’t know that yet! The nd stoy isn’t out yet…so what I’ve been saying is that maybe we should wait to see what REALLY happened before we completely trash this guy…I mean, he’s totally wrong in every ay and the end story won’t change that no matter what the age is…my deal is with everyone saying this girl didn’t want the relationship and making it seem like she was forced to do something she didn’t want to do. I am familiar with the situation because my mother WAS brutally molested and raped by her moms bf at the time when she was a young teen and THAT. Did effect her life from then on out…she developed mental issues and imbalances from the incident! This is how u guys are making the girl out to be…but she’s not…she had a choice I’m sure…and she chose to be in the relationship with him…she won’t be mentally damaged from this BECAUSE she chose that road….do you understand or do I need to clarify again? If so, point out exactly what u don’t understand and I’ll see how I can put it to make it more understandable! No guys shouldn’t think with their penises and yes he was wrong and I’m not arguing that topic, my issue is with those saying she’s damaged and calling her a victim in the sense that she didn’t choose this road. You guys say he should have said no, well, she had the choice to say no too…common sense…even for a worldy person, u don’t have to screw who u don’t want to…and if ur MADE to…then go to the police…u think she thought this stand up pastor is going to kill her if he didn’t have sex with him?

        Btw, yesthey crossed state lines. They went to michigan and illinois for their encounters…the secretary drove her to met him…that’s why she was fired.

        Google Jac Schaap and next to some of them, they have a time where it was put on the internet…look at the latest article you can find…the last one I read was released at about 8am florida time.

        1. Krista – The more you say, the worse you sound. You just keep blaming the girl. How can you even attempt to claim to understand her mindset and point of view? How can you even call what they had a relationship?You cannot listen to what a spokesman for the church says! They are going to spin this to mkae them look as good as possible. You need to listen to what the police are saying. There have been plenty of stories linked that quote the police as saying that this is an investigation. If it was a relationship the police would not be involved.

        2. Ok, Krista, I see what you are saying. You are saying not to victimize the girl because it is quite possible she wanted to have sex with him, so she isn’t a victim because she got what she wanted. Right? Ok, but here is the thing, even at 18 (which I understand she wasn’t) she is still too young to be encumbered with such a heavy burdon and should NOT have been given that to bear. Even if she wanted it, even if she pursued it, even if she BEGGED for it… she was not mature enough to know what is good for her. He of all people should have wanted what was best for her and witheld it from her (for her own good) if the scenario you are proposing were accurate. So… She is STILL a victim. Because she was not protected by a person who ought to have had HER best interest in mind and not his own selfish greedy lusts. I don’t know if you will understand this until you are older, but I have kids your age, I look back on things that I wish had not happened in my youth, even though at the time I really really wanted them to. I wish I had been protected not only from the perpetrators who wanted to take advantage of my innocence, but also protected from my own desires.

        3. Krista, being part of rape culture doesn’t mean going around thinking, “Hey, I feel like raping somebody today.” It means finding excuses for rapists. The victim was asking for it, the rapist was under a lot of stress, people of the rapist’s gender just can’t help themselves when people of the other gender walk by, the rapist gets a pass for being drunk, the victim shouldn’t have gotten drunk, the rapist should get a pass because putting them in jail would disrupt this other thing they do that is good for people, people of the victim’s gender have a responsibility to be alert at all times for potential rapists because telling people of the other gender not to take and use the bodies of other people is somehow not even an idea, it was “just” adultery and never mind that the rapist was in a position of power over the victim such that the victim was afraid to say no . . . Do you find yourself arguing in favor of any of these assertions? Then you’re part of rape culture.

        4. I’m sorry your mom was violated by her mom’s boyfriend. That’s horrible.

          And you’re right. The two types of abuse don’t necessarily equate. Your mom literally had no choice. This young lady may have had a choice, but she may not have felt like she had a choice. Coercion is a very powerful thing.

          She may not suffer the same long-term emotional effects that your mom did, but it’s likely she will suffer some. Don’t discount her suffering just because it wasn’t AS bad as someone else’s. That’s not fair, and it’s not right. She’s still going through pain and difficulty and confusion right now, and she’s probably got a heavy load of guilt as she watches this man-made empire crumbling — do you realize how many people are blaming HER?

          She doesn’t have it better or worse than any other victim of child sex abuse. Just different. Her road is her own. She’s a victim. And hopefully she soon becomes a survivor and learns to thrive in spite of it all.

    2. I don’t care about age of consent in regards to this situation. How can a 16 yr old girl just growing out of her training bra while receiving counseling for sexual abuse from a 54 yr old man give consent? In one state this is legal while in another you go to prison with a cell mate who has a mom tattoo and sleeps on the top bunk. This incident screams of manipulation and coercion and if that were my daughter this guy would be getting his balls chopped off.

    3. a) i’m not a lady, i’m a human male
      b) the latest reports have NO different information from the first report, that is, the girl was 16 and now she’s 17.

      I will say, the latest reports DO add some context which earlier one’s didn’t have, namely, that 16 is the age of consent in Indiana.

      Well, so Schaap took advantage of a young girl when she was most vulnerable, he committed adultery; but at least he didn’t cross the invisible line and commit rape as legally defined! So at least he won’t go to prison, but he sure has a LOT to answer to God, his wife, and the other people whom he has wronged.

        1. Yeah you’re right I did sort of jump the gun. I was trying to just say, “ok, AT BEST, he might not have broken a law; but it’s still REAL bad.”

          But if he had her cross state lines, he may have committed a felony. Plus, (as i mentioned earlier), it looks like he probably broke the written Pastoral Counselors codes of ethics, which can sometimes be brought to bear by the prosecutor. On the other hand, it would probably be difficult to use, since I doubt Schaap is licensed or a member of any counseling organization.

        2. Jason, I’m sure he is not a member of any professional counseling organization. Counseling organizations would be deemed as a compromise in their circles. The magic light for a young girl to be deemed responsible is unfortunately puberty in their minds. Forget the fact that she was receiving counseling from this predator for past offenses towards her. The “ick” factor is strong here.

    4. Saying a woman is complicit — even in part — for her sexual assault IS taking part in rape culture, like it or not. Even if a woman walks buck naked down the street, she should not be raped or touched in any way. We are entitled to our bodily autonomy. And that goes trebly for minor, dependent or otherwise vulnerable females.

      1. If I were to walk into a store, bar, whatever, wearing a short panty showing skirt, tight lowcut shirt, and hooker heels, and I get raped, guess what…it’s partially my fault. I dressed in a way that was meant to catch the male eye and get a reaction. It may not be the reaction I wanted, but…it was still a reaction, and I asked for it.

        1. Rape has nothing to do with sex and how one is dressed. Hence the high number of sexual assaults in Saudi Arabia.

          But you keep thinking that women who are raped and girls who are molested somehow “asked for it.” YOU are a part of the problem. YOU are rape culture.

          I hope you didn’t raise sons.

        2. No, you didn’t ask for it. Contrary to what you seem to have been taught, men can resist sexual temptation. We are not quite the mindless lust-monsters you seem to think we are. Perhaps you need to associate with a higher class of male?

          If a man has sex with a woman without her meaningful consent (which includes being mature enough to understand the ramifications of her decisions), it’s his CHOICE. 100%. A man is just as capable of NOT having sex with an attractive woman as a woman is of not having sex with an attractive man. Would you say that a woman who flings herself at every male she finds attractive, whether or not he has shown interest in her, “couldn’t help herself” and that the man should have made himself less appealing so as not to tempt her?

    5. I’m sorry (not really), but I remember being 16/17. This period of time in comparison to when I am 54/55 Im sure is a HUGE DIFFERENCE in my level of understanding. MAYBE SHE WANTED IT AND MAYBE LIKED IT? Are you for real? If the members and deacons were afraid to speak up and they are ALL OVERAGE, then what in the world would a 16/17 year old be expected to do in her position. Can you even imagine going for counseling and being betrayed by not only the counselor, BUT THE HEAD Of the CHUrCH.

      When dating, it is IMPERATIVE to have a chaperon. WHY IN THE WORLD WAS A WOMAN NOT present?? Really?

      A MAN OF POWER is attractive not only to his wife but to many others. Grooming is a BIG PART of ABUSE. Little things turn into BIGGER things!!!

      CAN WE ALSO recognize that JS did not come before the church to admit or “confess” to any wrongdoing. Like JUDGE JUDY ALWAYS SAYS “It may not be the first time it happen” BUT IT SURE MAY BE THE FIRSt tiME SOMEONE HAD THE GUTS TO NOT SWEEP IT UNDER THE RUG.

      OH, believe you me, that I will be in prayer for many that were not on my prayer list before. Instead of BRAGGING ABOUT how many MAY have been brought to CHRIST, I will be praying for those who MAY turn away and want NOTHING to do with CHRIST.

      NEVER GET YOUR THEOLOGY FROM A WOMAN? Really? So thankful that I have a personal relationship with Christ and I do not look to the church nor the pastor for whence cometh my help. I TRUST IN THE LORD with all my heart and I am a sheep only to HIM.

      I am NO LONGER 16/17 and like the slogan from the NYC MTA….IF I SEE SOMETHING I SAY SOMETHING!!!!

      There is a positive to this happening: GOD always has a WAY of redirecting the ATTENTION to himself and he will, in the end, be magnified and glorified. My father always quoted from the scripture and warned me that it may not be today, or tomorrow, but BE SURE YOUR SINS WILL FIND YOU OUT.

      FOR REAL!!!!!

      1. I agree! I too remember being 16/17 & wearing clothes to attract boys–no, not 54-year-old men, but boys! I, to this day, thank God for his mercy in protecting me from what “could have” happened.
        This girl may not have “asked” for it, but she knew it was wrong. I don’t believe she was afraid to say, “No!” I think the idea of being with a man of his position was thrilling to her.
        However, it is my belief that, as pastor, Jack Schaap is at fault 100%. I am now 52 & have been in a Fundamental Baptist Church (including First Baptist Church) since I was 15. NEVER have I been taught, or even hinted to that anything like this is EVER acceptable! It has been taught by every leader (spiritual as well as secular) I have ever had, that you are not to put yourself in any situation where anything ever could happen like this.
        How many times have we heard, “Abstain from all appearance of evil”?
        Please allow me get a bit pios now. I know that we all sin (every day) and none of us is going to be perfect until we get to heaven.
        Having said that, now reality check! NO ONE EVER HAS SEX BY ACCIDENT!
        Thanks for letting me vent!

  6. Tikatu…u are so stupid…yes I said bro in law…I have sisters who are married…wouldn’t they be considered my brother in law? Don’t jump in on comments you don’t understand! Or read the whole thing 1st…like I said, I’m going thru a divorce…therefore making me a single mother…my husband is a soon to be ex! Don’t be so ignorant!

    This is the exact reason I’m no longer in church…u guys are rediculous!

    1. i hope you can love Jesus, and have charity towards his people, even if you think we’re rediculous.

  7. Didn’t Jack Hyles ultimately admit his affair? I didn’t know there were people that still believed he was innocent.

    1. I don’t think he ever actually admitted it. But just because “nobody saw it” doesn’t mean there weren’t people who knew. It’s just there were so many people who willingly looked the other way that he was allowed to go on and nobody was allowed to talk about it. At some point it was looked upon as that “unpleasant situation that nobody talks about.”

    2. I was in the circle at the time of the accusations against Jack Hyles. All I remember hearing in church was that the devil was at work and had lead people to accuse him of sinning. Seems to me, the church tried to cover that one up. Much in the same way that Bob Gray’s trangressions were covered.

  8. Jason, ur just as rediculous…u claim to be christians which means we’re siblings in christ but here u all are, criticizing me and calling me names and pointing out all my typing flaws when I’m just trying to point out it hasn’t been established that the girl was under age yet. Not only that, but if an attractive woman threw herself at u and u were tempted, even not acting on it, does that make u a rapist? No…it doesn’t! Where in the world is the brotherly love? Not here, that’s for damn sure! Every ifb church I’ve been to are so critical! And THAT’S why I prefer to worship god in my own home…in the way I believe is right…so people like u can bring me down with ur negativity! Go ahead and criticize me for this! It just shows I’m correct about christians…u guys ned to read the bible and see exactly what it says about being a christian and how t reat others and leave the judgement up to God!

    1. I think you’re confusing my words with those of other posters. And not only that, but you seem to be reading much farther into other peoples’ posts than the words they have actually written.

      I certainly never called you any name. And, despite what you have read, i don’t think anyone called you names, either.

      No one here has been particularly negative towards you, as far as I’ve seen. We HAVE, on the other hand, entered a serious discussion about how to treat predators and their victims. Sometimes this can bring up very strong emotions, I get that.

      Again, I hope you can love Jesus and have charity towards his people. And I hope you can be healthy and whole. Blessings and peace.

    2. Krista, I’m not sure why you say her age hasn’t been established. Can you explain why you think she wasn’t a minor at the time of the incident? Have you seen or heard reports from reputable news organizations that state she is 18 or older? If so, have these been confirmed? Even if she is above the age of consent, having consensual sexual relations with someone other than your spouse is defined as sin. A man is wrong to cheat on his wife; it matters not if he is seduced. The Bible condemns and prohibits fornication and adultery; it also condemns rape. Men are fully capable of turning down sex if they don’t want it.

      As for the qualifications to be a rapist — you have to commit the crime of rape. You may imagine raping someone, but in the eyes of the law that doesn’t count. Rape is defined in various ways in various states. Look up the laws in your own state.

      I see you being critical and harsh to everyone who disagrees with you. How do you know if people here are reading their Bibles or not? Are you treating others the same way you are accusing us of treating you, or are you treating us the way you are telling us to treat you? It works both ways.

    3. Krista, Funny that you should mention us reading the Bible. I guess you missed the part where Jesus spoke of those “doing that which is right in their own eyes.”

  9. Sims, that is what I’m saying except from the articles I have read so far, they…according the the police, are not quite sure of her age. Last I read, she was over 16 but close enough to the age to be questiond. Yes, he should have known better and shame on him for taking advantage of an immature girl who doesn’t realize the effect of her actions and what it may cause her in the future, but this girl was not brutally raped as some have said in the beginning of this post. That’s what I meant…they say she was raped and he’s a monster making it seem like he held a gun to her head and raped her, but that’s no the case. She is the victim in the sense as u said, but she’s not a rape victim as in the sense she refused but he forced her to sleep with him. Besides….what I read, there was no sex…the photo was of them making out…also, there was more than one girl…or so they think.

  10. Jason…maybe u should go back and read posts from yesterday, someone called me a moron, others called me illiterate because my keys on my phone sticks and has auto correct spelling and punctuations and my phone, after I get to a certain point, I can’t see what I’m writing to correct where I made mistakes. Others, today, have called me stupid and that the more I speak the dumber I sound…this isn’t name calling and being negative toward me? Not only that, but I’ve tried to make my posts clear after people have mentioned or made me think I wasn’t being understood and everyone says the same thing…I have a rapist metality, which I find VERY offensive! All because from what I’ve read, HER AGE HAS NOT YET BEEN DETERMIND! I Was speaking in regards to the ones who made it sound like she was brutally raped…must I go back and copy and paste the post I was referring to in order for everyone to understand? It was a topic that was sure to be brought up and I did, so I get the switch for it! And not to be rude to the one who said I’m too young…I’m 28. I’m a mother…I know what u mean. I have made mistakes I wish I could take back too but I made an adult choice that I must live with now. I was very sheltered and my parents didn’t give me the sex talk…I lost my virginity at the age of 18 with a “preacher boy”.

    1. I and others have provided links to many different news sources all of which agree, she was 16 at the time this relationship began, and now she is 17. No one said she was “brutally raped,” but, ACCORDING TO THE LAW, if she was brought across state lines (even being above the age of consent), she was statutorily raped. It’s called Rape in the law. Even if she “consented,” or even if she enticed Schaap. If she was under 18 and brought across state lines, it’s Rape.

      You’re right, a few people here have been really mean in the names they have used. I missed that. I hope you can let that roll off your back. This is the internet, after all. There will be plenty of mean people saying terrible things.

      Now that you ARE 28, I (and others here) simply hope that you would approach this issue like an adult. It’s simply immature to keep your ears plugged.

        1. Indeed, when it comes to court-room-quality-testimony, the facts will be verified. But to this point, every single report indicates the girl WAS 16 and IS NOW 17. The report you link to doesn’t disagree with this.

        2. Well, this is the latest news…she was 16…but the articles I’ve read said they were unsure…and yesterday when all this started, they weren’t sure…I based my comment on what I had read asof 10am yesterday.

          And, jason, this is the part is was referring to on my last comment, the link I shared…

           A board of deacons decided to fire Jack Schaap on Monday night and then reported allegations to the Sheriff’s Department on Tuesday because it was unclear whether the woman was a minor, spokesman Eddie Wilson said.
          Wilson said that Schaap admitted to the deacons that he had an adulterous affair with the young woman, initially believed to be 16.
          “We know the age was very close to an age of question,” Wilson said, adding that church records show her to be older. He declined to release details about the allegations or the young woman.
          “There was a rumor, and the deacons questioned him, and that is when he admitted it,” Wilson said.
          He said the sheriff’s office has told church officials that the young woman is older than 16 but that the investigation remained open.

        3. Keep in mind that all of the quotes in that article came from people at FBC. They are in crisis mode and are going to try to spin this so they don’t look bad. Every quote from the police has been more direct to the point that they wouldn’t be involved if a crime wasn’t committed.

        4. So, now that we’re back where we began, we can all agree that, AT BEST, he’s a predator who took advantage of a 16-17 year old girl, committed adultery, and may have committed a felony.

        5. She was 16 when they started having sex, and while that may be the age of consent in Indiana, it is NOT in Illinois, and he dragged her back and forth across three different state lines just so he could violate her privately.

          He broke the law; she didn’t.

    2. “…and that the more I speak the dumber I sound…”

      I did not say that. What I said was “Krista – The more you say, the worse you sound.” That was from my post today at 10:38am above. I did not call you dumb.
      Perhaps I should have said “In my opinion, your interpretation of the facts is incorrect and off base.”

    3. Hey, Krista. YOU called yourself illiterate. I just went and checked. No one else called you that. NO ONE. You were ranting about people not understanding what you were saying, and I said that yes, I was struggling to get through your creative punctuation (you tend to add periods and commas haphazardly — I don’t know if it’s intentional or not, nor do I care.) Someone else said your syntax was garbled. And then YOU said THIS: “…for those of u who complain about my bad grammer and spelling…christian schools…that must be why I’m so illiterate!” So YOU have only yourself to blame for that lovely little bit of name-calling.

    4. Auto correct inserts the wrong word, it doesn’t misspell words. You need a new scapegoat.

      What brand of phone has auto punctuate? I could really use that.

      1. I don’t. I sent my husband an “I love you, Ted,” message once. Turns out, I hit 833 instead of 866. My husband, who is NOT named Ted, has not let me live it down to this day.

      2. Holy SHIT! Samsung epic has auto punctuate…so did my last phone, samsung replenish. I didn’t say auto misspell…so, u know how to spell every word in the dictionary? Maybe I do misspell some, especially when I’m frustrated at u people and that my phone is giving me crap. Now I see I must be 100% clear with u guys. Get bent all of you!.I’m unsubscribing tfrom this site. And u will never catch me in a church thanks to people like immune hope god punishes u for ur insensitivity.

        1. like i said before… I was hoping you could let things roll off your back. Too bad.

          No one was demanding you to be perfect; we were just TRYING to have a discussion, but when you choose to not meet us halfway (by at least attempting to communicate clearly) it makes it difficult to proceed.

          Welcome to the internet: where typing skills and clarity matter, if you wish to be taken seriously.

        2. You are blaming anonymous people on a blog for your choice to never return to church? Way to own your own choices, Krista.

          Also: You are making the assumption people here are all Christians. You would be wrong.

        3. “…Now I see I must be 100% clear with u guys.”

          I would have settled for 65% clear.

        4. Really? THIS is what people are arguing about on here? Shouldn’t this be a constructive debate on the issue at hand? Oy!

  11. You have quite a biased & twisted perspective of the First Baptist Church of Hammond. Nobody worshipped this former pastor. We all understand he is made of the same sinful flesh that you & I are made of. There is no cover-up of this matter & nobody is defending his actions that got him fired. You need to understand that he preached against all kinds of sinful practices, but not against the people themselves. I’m sure that you will find some holes in what I’m saying, because he is just a man & is prone to error, just as you & I are. It is quite obvious to me that you have an ax to grind against this man & against fundamental Bible believers in general. That’s ok. You have the right to throw all the stones you want. Take advantage of this situation, exploit it to the fullest & fire away.

    1. Tom, I find your worldview disturbing. Interestingly enough, the stones you are talking about in context were meant for a guy like this who wrote 20 or so books about teenagers dating. This man has done more harm for the cause of Christ then I can possibly imagine right now. He will BURN for this and there is a special place in hell for him. Christ calls us to judge often especially false teachers and he is most certainly a false teacher.

    2. “You have quite a biased & twisted perspective of the First Baptist Church of Hammond.”

      Right. And we got it from listening to sermons that Schaap and Hyles preached. And the Hyles clones that perpetuate the lies, deceit and sin preached from the pulpits of many IFB churches across the country.

      Tom, we too were once where you are. We were blind, but now we see.

      1. Scorpio – well said. I too was once blind, but now I see. I was raised in a church that was hugely influenced by Jack Hyles and churches like his. Funny, churches like “his”. Hm, shouldn’t the ‘his’ be referring to god not to the man who was in charge?

    3. Tom, how biased and twisted do I have to be to read Schaap’s own words, just a few posts down from here, and conclude that I do not want such a man anywhere near any teenage girl ever?

      To repeat an earlier post of mine: How does a man who talks like this get a pulpit? He’s a creep!

    4. How would an anonymous poster on an internet forum “take advantage of this situation”? We’re just in a little corner of the internet.

      No, the people who “take advantage” of situations are the powerful men who meet troubled young girls.

      By the way, I’ve always worked with the assumption that, if there’s been a wrong, all else being equal, the more powerful person ALWAYS deserves a greater share of the blame.

  12. I have to say I agree with Krista. We had something similar happen in our family, though not with such a huge age gap. A cousin who was 21 slept with a girl who was 14. Wrong? ABSOLUTELY! HOWEVER, she admitted herself that she came on to him first. Should he and Jack have had the mind set to walk away, YES. BUT, girls today are becoming more and more sexually provacative at much younger ages. I have a cousin who is barely into her teens, but for several years her and her friends have presented themselves as much older. Psh, I, myself, remember being 15 and wanting to make myself older so that the boys would notice me. We have a close family friend who was pregnant by age 15. I side with anyone who says that Jack is not 100% to blame. He IS just a MAN. He is not exempt from temptation, no matter the age of the girl.

    And to those who are ragging on people who can’t type. How about you consider the fact that they may be using a device that is not so easily corrected? And, let’s focus on the heart of the argument, not on the petty BS. If you start picking on people because they have typing or spelling errors, then you are just looking to argue with someone.

    Now, back to the HEART of the matter at hand. Yes, he is a sick individual for partaking in this action. And, yes, he took advantage of a young woman who needed his help and looked up to him for guidance. But, she is to blame as well. She knew that losing her virginity to ANYONE was wrong. Yet, from what I understand, SHE led HIM on. Doesn’t matter how old the guy is…his d**k is eventually going to get what it wants. This is true whether the older person is a guy or girl. Think of all the ‘cougars’. Age…is just a number. No more, no less. Don’t forget our forefathers were wed to women much younger than them.

    Not defending Jack in anyway, but I don’t think it’s fair to place all the blame on him.

    1. Did you really just write that “losing her virginity to ANYONE was wrong”? She was in counseling for being sexually molested!!!! What in the ever-living heck is wrong with you?

      Omg … no wonder … ugh … *shudder*

      And I have more faith in men than that. They have brains, and they can use them. I honestly believe that if a minor child EVER comes on to my husband that he will be able to resist her. If he does not, he had better HOPE the police catch him before I do because he will not like what I do to him. That’s because my husband has a BRAIN he can think with, and I expect him to use that brain — not his penis.

    2. “His dick is always going to get what it wants,” huh? So he couldn’t say no?

      Then why wasn’t he in an institution somewhere? A grown man is supposed to be able to control himself.

      I know, I know, the answer is that lust is an irresistible sex pollen that women exude and men are just poor helpless victims, led into sin by Jezebel or Eve or whoever.* Rape culture with a Jesus fish bumper sticker.

      *Bzzt! Wrong. Try Tamar. Or Bathsheba.

      1. Forget grown men. We need to raise our sons to control themselves.

        We spend too much time telling women to not get raped. We don’t do that with other crimes — “Don’t get murdered! Don’t get robbed!” No, we tell people not to hurt others and not to steal. So why in the heck aren’t we teaching our sons not to RAPE PEOPLE????

        Mothers, stop telling your boys that girls are sluts, that they’re asking for it, and that they deserved it! Stop being a part of rape culture, and stop raising rapists!

    3. “Yet, from what I understand, SHE led HIM on” — I’m SO tired of hearing stuff like this. She was 17; he was 54, the leader of a huge church. If Joseph in the Bible at a young age was wise enough and godly enough to run away from the seduction of Potiphar’s wife, Jack Schaap should surely have been able to do the same.

      “Doesn’t matter how old the guy is…his d**k is eventually going to get what it wants” — No. No. No. The Bible tells us to FLEE youthful lusts. The Bible says that the Holy Spirit gives us the power to face any temptation. The Bible says that there will always be a way to escape. Schaap chose to use his position of power, prestige, and supposed holiness to manipulate a young person into meeting his perverted desires. He violated one of the most sacred vows in life – his marriage vows. He violated the honor and responsibility of his position as pastor and spiritual leader. We never read of David blaming Bathsheba; he owned up to his sin and repented. Would God that Schaap and his followers would do the same.

      1. There is nothing that would ever convince me that, Biblically, ethically, or morally, she was responsible for “leading him on.” She was a teenager, barely past childhood. Teenagers do all sorts of foolish things: experimenting with drugs, alcohol, drunk driving, and sex. Adults are there to help direct and control and teach them, not to say, “Oh, good! Here’s someone I can use for my own sick pleasure.”

        All those years of supposed maturity, all that life experience, all his years of Bible study, all that godly wisdom that he preached from the pulpit and disseminated on his website, all the power of the Holy Spirit living within him — none of that could stand up against the “wiles” of a minor? It’s pretty pathetic that he could have so much power, such a prestigious position as pastor of a megachurch with so many people following him so devotedly, and yet supposedly be so very weak that he couldn’t withstand a 17 year old.

        No, it’s not on her. It’s on him, the adult, the pastor, the counselor, the father figure, the spiritual adviser, the shepherd of the flock.

        1. That’s true. It also seems that those who are most hungry for power also tend to be somewhat corrupt already.

        2. Thank you, PW! That is my opinion exactly. I have had it with men thinking with their dicks and trying to explain it as normal male behavior. On one hand you have them saying we’re human beings not animals and on the other acting like a bull in a stud barn. YOU CAN’T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS! You’re either a reasonable human being who can control himself and act like an adult or you’re a sex machine who can’t be trusted around anything that wears a skirt by natural right. And, just for the record, I have male friends who are quite able to keep their pants zipped and their minds on something other than sex most of the time. Schaap and his ilk are (thank god) the minority but I do wish they’d disappear altogether, they give the decent guys a bad rap and us women one more thing to worry about.

    4. by making that misogynistic statement you ARE {trying}to excuse him.
      Joseph ran from Potipher’s wife. but I’m sure if he hadn’t you would be trying to high five him across the millenniums with sadistic winks and the “huh, huh” nods.

      Have you ever thought that it was orchestrated not on her part BUT HIS?! We know from his disturbing sermons, he had a horrific fascination with teen girls and sex. What if he, during their counseling sessions, just did what abusers do ~ win their trust make them comfortable and then make them start to see them as a desirable man and from there, he didn’t have much to do but allow the things he set into motion happen. Master manipulators know how to do just that. And he was a MASTER MANIPULATOR.

      He gets no excuse. PERIOD…

    5. Unless someone has evidence she tied him down, took off his pants, and caused an involuntary sexual response (which can happen — men CAN be raped by women. It’s just not common.), then, in fact, it IS ONE HUNDRED PERCENT HIS FAULT. All those people making excuses like “He was tempted…”… if you’re a woman, I feel sorry that you’ve never known a decent man. If you’re a man, you’re not a decent one. (I am, for the record, a 47 year old heterosexual male, and an atheist. I’ve had a decent number of sexual partners over the years. Not once did I cheat (I’ve had the opportunity, with women I found both physically and mentally attractive), or force myself on a woman (I include taking advantage of a woman whose mental state means she can’t make a reasoned decision in the same category as direct force), or use psychological games (“You would if you loved me…”) to get a woman to have sex with me when she was hesitant or reluctant. (Hint: A woman who wants to have sex with you of her own free will, who desires it as much or more than you do, is going to be a *lot* more fun in bed.) Absolutely, I have been in situations where I was “tempted”, but, you know what? The big head rules the little one, PERIOD. Any man who claims otherwise, or claims he couldn’t “help himself”, is a pathetic weakling who is not much of a man. Grab a Playboy and run to the nearest men’s room, if that’s what it takes to keep yourself under control. Maybe if someone believes in a God who forgives their sins, they’re MORE inclined to commit them. I don’t have to answer to any gods for my actions, and I don’t have the comfort of believing that no matter what I do, no matter how vile, I’ll be forgiven. I have to answer to the guy I see when I look in the mirror, and that guy is a mean-spirited, cold-hearted, unforgiving SOB who never lets me get away with anything.

      1. I agree with Lizard. It is 100% Jack’s fault. He was the adult. It does not matter what the girl’s actions were, HE had the responsibility to say no.

        Joesph was seduced by Photpier’s wife and by all accounts she was good at what she did, but he still said NO!

        Put responsibility where it belongs.

  13. I was raised in a IFB church–I’ve heard plenty of sermons (some of which were from Schaap himself) about how it is the woman’s fault if a man lusts after her. NEVER in my 20 years in an IFB church did I ever hear a sermon about how men are also to blame for sexual promiscuity– why are women degraded and belittled in those churches???
    I’ve read a book by Cindy Schaap on marriage–there is a paragraph about how the wife should get up in the morning before the husband and “draw his bath”…I wonder if she still thinks the same way?

  14. So though this is not a surprise to me I still find it terriable. As long as I have attended church I have been under a Pastor from under Dr. Hyles teaching or like minded with Dr. Hyles. I am a fundemental christian. I believe that this started when he started trying to discredit the KJV as the truly inspired word of God. He was cocky..I am sorry thats the truth. When I heard about the death of Dr. Hyles I cried..I did also when I heard the selection of his replacement. He was not strong enough or experienced enough for this job. HE should have said no. I am not sure who should have taken the pulpit..I am sure there are many who can handle the stress he went through. But I feel for his family and the Hyles family on this tarnish of that great name. He and those like him give a bad name to fundementals.we simply believe the fundementals of the Bible and that no man has a right to use those to further himself wether in the pulpit or out of it. A lot of pastors have pulled their support of this once great church well before this happened nor have I heard many who recommend Hyles Anderson as the college to send their young people..but maybe that is exactly what this church needs..I just wish it could have been less harmfull to innocents. As far as as the casting of the first stone…I believe as does my Pastor and family..God hates the sin not the sinner..but that Bible is as it is. You take it or leave it. I am sorry for the masses that are hurt by this.

    1. I believe that this started when he started trying to discredit the KJV as the truly inspired word of God.


      1. I agree, wow! I’ve heard the thinking, but to see it in print is just wow. But not surprising.

    2. WOW indeed. The King James “BIBLE”? That’s where this is coming from? WHAT THE?

  15. I really think that what Krista and Mol are trying to say is this is a different level of sexual misconduct than if the girl had been actually raped against her will. It doesn’t seem as if either are trying to diminish Schaap’s role in it, maybe they are but hopefully not. It just seems that this age this girl is so close to the questionable age and I’m sure if she were 13 or 14 this wouldn’t be even be something that would be said. It’s all speculation anyway since not too many people really know exactly what took place and how much she was or wasn’t victimized since there is most definitely different levels of victimization. And I’m not putting her in any certain category of victimization so please make sure you read that correctly.
    I personally was a victim of sexual ‘misconduct’ at the age of 13 and I mention this so no one thinks of me as some heartless person sympathizing with a ‘rapist’s mentality’ because I’m not. I do think that the fact that she was going to him for prior sexual abuse is REALLY what gets to me and that maybe people are forgetting that when they are saying it was her fault too. If the age gap were different I MAY agree with these two and if some of the other circumstances were different as well such as the leadership position/ counseling. If this were my daughter would I punish her or reprimand her because of her part in this? I’m quite sure I wouldn’t. That’s the question I keep going to when I see anyone saying this girl played an equal part in it and knew what she was doing. If the perpetrator were 24, maybe, I don’t really know… because at some point or age a girl IS responsible for her actions… but in this case I just really DO see her as a victim. This is quite a young age, there’s prior sexual abuse, the 37 yr age difference and his leadership position.
    Anyway. I just want to say that what person of this position with so much to lose would ALLOW pictures to be sent to his phone. You’d think he’d be smarter than that. That’s the first rule in cheating 101.

    1. Thank you for understanding our position. And before anyone starts in let me apologize for any grammatical errors. Im now typing from a very uncooperative phone.

      Just one correction: we are in no way giving equal blame. I would give it a 90/10 on blame. His being of course thehigher. I may even go as far as 98/2. But i would not give him 1o0% blame. Assuming she is mentally the same age as her physical age she should have known that it was wrong no matter what his age is. Nor would i punish her. But i hope that she realizes she is partialy to blame and learns from this. If she learns nothing than this is all for naught anyways. Wow this site does not like mobile web. This has been difficult to type.

      We all need to keep in mind that this is all speculation anyways. When and if the truth comes out, im sure the debate will continue.

      1. Mol, if a person goes to a trusted pastor or counselor for counseling due to sexual abuse, she lays the deepest hurt in her heart in front of him. The only thing the pastor / counselor can do is HANDLE IT GENTLY. If he comes on to her sexually AT ALL she can very easily get the idea that all she is good for is sex. When she tells him about her sexual abuse, if he reacts in certain ways, even if he DOESN’T mean to come on to her, she still can take it that way. So please, don’t blame the woman. She went to him, laying her deepest hurt in front of him, and rather than handling it gently, he used her. Women have been known to commit suicide due to that kind of clergy sexual abuse. 😥

        1. I get that. But she could havesaid no. Who knows, she may have. But i highly doubt it if shes sending him pictures. And to the comment about how could he let her do that. I doubt he did. If he just left his phone out for anyone to see and unlocked i doubt he was expecting that type of text.

        2. Schaap could have, and should have, said no. Again, I don’t care if she was stripping on his lap to the tune of “fuck me”, he is 100% at fault for his own actions. Why is that so hard for people to understand?

        3. Forhis own actions. Yes 100% to blame. However for whatever lead him to go that far….hes only mostly to blame. If it were a 6 year old girl. Hed be 100% to blame or if it turns out she is not mentally her physical age…then he 100 % to blame.byt if she is of an age to know better than he’s not fully to blame unless he forced her. and being a psychology major i understand she may have daddy issues. but that where her mental age comes into queston. it will be interesting to see how or if he’s prosecuted.

        4. And this is where I agree with this side of things. We don’t know what happened with her first sexual abuse. Who knows, maybe she lacks some sort of father figure or that certain love that people needs and therefore making her more susceptible to sexual abuse or maybe a better target is more accurate. Who knows. This where the fact that she has had prior sexual abuse is a huge deal as compared to someone else. Her emotional state is most likely not as strong as another’s or even her willpower. Should she learn from this… yes, and that is where I agree with Mol since we should all learn that our actions affect others greatly. I hope though that no one in the church openly condemns her though since that I’m sure would be utterly traumatic.

        5. Except word is there were other pictures on there as well… so speculation but if that’s the case he took them or she sent previous pictures.

        6. Because they apparently have no faith in men or their ability to control themselves.


          MOST men are perfectly able to not have sex with people they aren’t supposed to be having sex with. It’s not rocket science. Just keep your genitals in your pants.

      2. Right, I knew when I wrote the ‘equal’ bit that it may be corrected but at the moment it felt too complicated to explain that I was including a few of the people that I’ve seen say that on various blogs, facebook posts, and various news websites and not necessarily you. I should have explained myself more or just not said equal.

        Also I had a typo on line five of my paragraph. I said “It just seems that this age this girl is so close” and SHOULD have said…. It just seems that this girl’s age is so close… :mrgreen: I just wanted to APOLOGIZE for that and hopefully everyone will forgive my grammatical error.

      3. Here’s the thing, though: although you state he’s perhaps even 98% to blame, you still have spent the majority of your time discussing HER fault. If she’s only 2% responsible, why has most of your time been spent discussing it?

  16. In the context of this discussion, why does it matter, *at all*, as to what the victim did?

    Fact #1: Schaap was in a position of authority over her

    Fact #2: Schaap is a mature adult who knows better

    Fact #3: The victim was not in any position to consent even if she was open to the relationship

    This entire argument over her own sin is disgusting and typical of the IFB and fundamentalism in general…and you people think it’s discussion of Schaap’s sins that turns people away from Christ?!?

    1. i just want to make it clear grew up ifb but am no longer. and have not been for many years. nor will my children should i have any very brought up in it.

      1. Yet you clearly still have the fundy ideas of evil women in your head.

        “Schaap is 100% in charge of his own actions but not 100% to blame because the woman seduced him”

        That’s the intent I read behind your words, even if you don’t mean it…and I’m sure I’m not the only one. You don’t think there is an inherent false dichotomy in them?

        It doesn’t matter what her actions were, she is in no way responsible for his behavior.

  17. I have to agree with Krista and Mol too. I’m not going to say much because I’m afraid I will get a lecture on my grammar and typing skills and I’m not really interested.

    1. Excellent grammar and typing!

      However, HOW could you morally believe this?? It really hurts my soul to keep seeing people blaming the victim and trying to go easy on the predator. STOP IT.

  18. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!” — notice in the story, the one Jesus defended was the powerless and friendless, the one all the “good,” “holy”, “righteous” people were attacking. Notice too that she was accused alone — where was the man with whom she’d been caught in the act? He seems to have been let go: all their vitriol was focused on HER.

    It’s so sad that this story is used to try to keep people from rebuking a powerful, influential man. The situation in the Scripture was completely different.

    1. Right on. I’ve been working with the ethical framework of, “if there’s been a wrong committed, all else being equal, the more powerful person ALWAYS deserves a greater share of the blame.” And every time, I’ve been more confirmed in this.

    2. Let’s also remember there was a whole lot more at stake in this situation. These were literal stones and this was a form of execution. A bit different to making verbal accusations against someone.

  19. Can I just say that anyone who even mentions that this could be the girl’s fault is certifiably bat-shit crazy.

    1. She was a 16-year-old girl.
      He was (theoretically) a man of mature years, and moreover, her pastor, counselor, and supposed mentor.

      Case closed.

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