Also, using the self-checkout for things like condoms – even if you’re married.
If you use the self-checkout but pay with a card you have lost your testimony to your bank’s computer you heathen.
Yes and second
Of course, this graphic is based on the assumption that wine is inherently evil (as well as a misunderstanding of the meaning of “appearance” in the passage).
Yes, there are layers upon layers of problems here.
1. The notion that wine is evil in a bottle even if it is not being drunk and that no good Christian would ever purchase it.
2. The notion that something that might be mistaken for wine is as evil as wine itself.
3. The notion that a cashier will inherently know 1 and 2 to be true and will further know that you are a Christian who is knowingly violating his own conscience.
4. That this knowledge of your hypocrisy is all it will take to send someone straight to hell.
I’m probably missing a few other points.
On the hermeneutical problem:
“The word ‘appearance’ in the Thessalonians passage does not mean what is commonly suggested: ‘If something might look evil then don’t do it just to be safe.’ Rather, the word refers to forms or manifestations of evil. Thus, the point is that the Christian should not engage in anything sinful in whatever way or form sin may manifest itself. A ‘Living Bible’ type paraphrase would be ‘don’t sin.'”
[#24 in Jerry Hullinger’s “58 Theses Regarding Christina Liberty and Legalism”]
You are correct.
And there we have a prime example of how King James language (as much as I love it) can be manipulated by confusing its antique usage with modern definitions.
I would love to read the “58 Theses.” Googled it but nothing came up. Where could I find it? Thanks!
Mind if I actually disagree? The word means outward appearance. eidos–it’s a cognate for one of the words for ‘sight.’ The problem is the context. Paul is telling them to reject anything that looks like evil /when they’re interpreting prophecy/. You’re still allowed to drink wine, but the KJV translation is fine there. 😛
I don’t mind if you disagree! I agree with you that (in context) Paul is speaking of prophecy. The word often means “outward appearance.” It can also mean “form” or “kind” as a synonym for genos (Thayer, Hendrickson, 172).
Which translation would make more sense (in context)?
1) Despise not prophecies. Test everything: keep the good, flee from all forms of evil.
2) Despise not prophecies. Test everything: keep the good, flee from everything that looks evil [but may or may not actually be evil].
A synonym for ‘genos?’ I haven’t seen that, I’ll have to investigate 😛
Alex, you’re partially right. “Appearance” would be accurate if the meaning was synonymous with “manifestation/occurrence.” But the word “appearance” in English has several different meanings. The ambiguity of the English wording does not appear to be present in the Greek wording.
can refer to the outward appearance of something — but it seems to refer to what is actually true (i.e. the appearance/form of someone [Luke 3:22, 9:29; John 5:37]. Contemporary usage of by Josephus and by the Apocryphal books bears out this concept.
As you suggest, “context is king” — i.e. meaning is derived from context. This is especially important when dealing with a translation from one language to another. There is rarely a direct, one-to-one equivalency. Contextually, there is little basis for arguing that means “what might seem to be.” Paul’s argument is a balance of “cleave to everything that is good/abstain from every thing that is evil.”
Just my two cents… 😀
Jesus Juke.
Self checkout for that? Ruining my testimony with a cashier? Never, ever crossed my mind, even as a fundy. It was grape juice for all that the bottle looked like wine. Same goes for IBC root beer. Likely a result of my misspent youth at a godless state university.
I’ll admit, though, to a certain thrill at thinking I was “getting away with something” the first time I bought some.
Fundies are so concerned about the outward appearance but never with obeying Christ’s command to love. It’s sad.
Guys used to put IBC bottles on the dorm windowsills at BJU just to bug people. There were a few hall meeting announcements regarding that.
I definitely flash my IBC cream soda bottles around just to bug people in my neck of the woods.
The thing is – the cashier is going to know its not alcohol because they won’t have to follow the computer prompts…
We buy a bottle of this for new year’s eve at my house. Didn’t know it was a problem for anyone. There is no such thing as self-checkout in my little town, either.
hope you have fun in hell
😯
I just laughed out loud in class…
Wow! You’re quite the comments preacher today! LOL! Definitely has already committed the great unpardonable!
Shoes, this is now my favorite post…
We do, too. Had to buy two bottle of it last year to share with our teenagers.
(And shoes is being facetious — a constant state with him.) 😉
I remember the first time I bought beer-I was 22, and in college. I do remember looking around. Same thing with condoms (wasn’t married)!
My fundy relatives would drive miles to get cooking wine.
One of the first times I drank a beer in public was at an outdoor cafe on a busy street corner in Chiang Mai, Thailand. Regardless of the fact that running into someone I knew there (someone who would care about the beer) would be nothing short of a miracle, I still had a hard time not feeling like I was doing something wrong.
Mm, I love sparkling grape juice. I don’t drink the real stuff, mostly because I like to maintain a sharp awareness of my surroundings at all time (because I once attacked my TV while I was half-asleep…but that’s another story.)
This pic brings back memories of 6th grade at my Christian school. On top of basically yelling at our class for looking at pictures of a developing baby in our Beka published health book, she once read us this devotional that had one kid showing off “imitation wine for kids” to her friend, and the friend had a crisis of conscience. Never really thought of it as imitation wine…pre-wine, maybe. Cracks me up.
Heehee — the Beka health book with the chapter on baby development. I remember poring over that chapter many times. It was horribly fascinating; I just couldn’t keep from going back to it.
Oh yes, that chapter was fascinating. I do imagine the good people at Beka cringing over having to type “birth canal.” I do think babies developing in the womb have a sort of beauty to them, because they’re new life. But I don’t think looking at a baby chapter (with honest, no mention at all of sex) warranted being yelled at by the teacher.
I remember them talking about the baby coming out, but they should have specified which orifice was the birth canal. I was, um, confused about that till someone straightened me out in college… 😳
There is beauty in all life — and, for goodness sakes, that teacher shouldn’t have yelled at you for looking in a school book.
Oh, the memories! I was also confused for many years about exactly which hole the baby came out. Don’t remember who set me straight.
Years later, teaching biology to high school kids overseas, one student getting extra help was stunned to learn “girls have 3 holes, boys have 2”. So stunned, in fact, that he made sure to announce it to the entire class the next day – sure enough, many were shocked at the revelation! Not sure how many were girls that were surprised… And the textbooks at that school had full diagrams and told it straight (though tastefully).
Oh man, this reminds me. Shortly after I was married I found myself explaining to my husband the “three hole” thing! He was amazed–and kind of relieved about where a baby would be born from! 🙂 Oh the joys of growing up in prudish fundy homes!
Oh, God, Christian school anatomy. I didn’t realise there was such thing as a ‘birth canal’ (to use the euphemism :P) at all until the onset of menstruation.
The problem is that fundies see what they want to see. They see you going to the theatre and automatically assume you’re there to see the R rated film instead of the G rated one. Or that something they see you buying in a dark bottle has to be liquor. My husband brought home a bottle of ginger beer a couple weeks ago and it was in a bottle that looked like a beer bottle. If one of the people from the former church had seen him they’d have thought oh how far they’ve fallen since leaving our church!
I remember the former pastor saying that when he was moving he flat refused to use any moving boxes that had the name of a brand of liquor on them lest someone think he was drinking beer. There are no limits to the sanctimonious prig-ism of these people! Of course they always use the verse about avoiding the appearance of evil, which has some merit but they take it to ridiculous lengths.
Like not allowing my husband to pick up a woman for church unless I’m with him. Even if she’s very young or very old, so to them it was better that she had no ride than that she ride with him alone! Thank God the new church and new pastor are a lot more reasonable! 😀
goes right to the heart of the issue with fundamentalism…I Cor. 13 in their beloved KJV says Love “thinketh no evil”
discernment has become paranoia, accountability has become authoritarianism (neither of which are biblical anyway), and love has become hatred. the doublespeak makes my head spin.
By thinking evil of others, fundies are actually failing to avoid the appearance of a very common form of evil. They are in fact violating the principle by changing it.
Great response, captain solo. I was going to remark on how unChristian it is for fundies to automatically assume the worst, but you stated it better than I would have!
No wonder there’s so little joy among the fundies I knew: always grimly thinking about evil instead of believing the best.
Hey, the last time I moved I was a regular at the local liquor store on Thursdays when the new shipment came in. Liquor boxes are great for packing books, because when they are full they are not too heavy for me to lift. Who cares if some of my former Baptist friends looked through the window and saw me helping myself to the pile the sales clerk saved for me. Now I unashamedly buy wine at the neighborhood supermarket and enjoy a glass with dinner frequently. As I approach 70, I think I’ve at last grown up.
Someone told my mom she needed to use beer for slugs in her garden. She was horrified — she couldn’t *possibly* buy beer!!! We also had to avoid the liquor aisle in the grocery — couldn’t even walk past it without feeling a little flutter of guilt every time. smh.
Beer is in the ice cream aisle at our store. Wine is in produce. How would a fundy ever be able to shop at our local store?
Ah, the joys of small town life! We have some weird placement of stuff in our local grocery stores too, but because of our geographical location, the beer does not have to share any aisle. There is, in fact, a small walk in refrigerator that’s open to the public in our corner store with a sign above it, “Beer Cave.” Redneckville, anyone? 😆
So would your testimony be absolutely ruined if you bought the plastic champagne glasses to drink your sparkling grape juice?
Cheers!
“Red solo cup, I fill you up.
Let’s have a party, let’s have a party.
I love you red solo cup, I lift you up,
Proceed to party, proceed to party.”
somehow this prompted a very irreverent picture of a communion service in my mind.
Great, now this is going to be in my head all day long. 😛
Yes! All sorts of glasses were verboten!
I remember being sternly told as a child that the adorable tiny glasses I liked in my grandma’s china cabinet were whiskey shot glasses — the assumption being that I shouldn’t therefore like them, even though to my childish eyes and hands they were “just right.”
I remember getting into this club where they sent you books every month and with each set of books they’d send you a wine glass. It was very pretty. I didn’t end up joining the club but I was able to keep one of the glasses. I used it for juice and milk. I liked holding it by the stem. But the thing eventually broke. It’s really too bad when you have to feel naughty for drinking milk or juice just because of the glass you’re using. 🙄
I know your testimony would be ruined to environmentalists! I try not to buy the plastic kind anymore. (But then, I can be a little bit of an environmental nut too.)
Ahh yes. The appearance of evil. A pastor once told me that I was hurting my testimony by being on the internet while my wife was out of the house. 🙄 🙄 🙄
I guess that tells me more about him than it does me.
As a good fundy, if I see someone coming out of a gas station I assume that they went in to buy a six-pack, some smokes and a dirty magazine. No way they could be there to simply buy gas.
Anyone remember the days when strict fundies would not eat in a restaurant that served alcohol? Or shop at a grocery store that sold it? I’ve heard of people putting their would be purchases back on the shelves when they discovered the place sold beer/wine.
I’ve discovered that out in the non religious world (and maybe in some religious households) the sparkling grape juice and cider was served on special occasions like Thanksgiving and Christmas to the kids so they wouldn’t feel left out of the celebrations.
A little country church tried that for a while…but folks just couldn’t stop going to Wal-Mart.
even worse….at my Fundy High School, we had to place our lunch orders with the lunch lady, who would retrieve it from the lunchroom. We were not allowed to order Cheerwine or Root Beer, but instead were instructed that we were only allowed to address the offending soft drinks as “Cheer” and “Root.” We also never drank Root Beer floats, we drank “Root Floats.” Dear Lord, I wish I was making this up……sigh.
Did you have to order chicken chest too?
HAAA!!! LOL I am sure we would have, if it had been on the menu…. 🙄
Congratulations Strangely Warmed. You have received my “most hilarious comment” award! (Whatever that is!) But the reserved one cannot stop laughing! 🙂
What about a 5+1 pack?
Remember the days nothing! My father-in-law to this day will not. 🙄
Well, now, there’s an easy way to have family functions without awkward fundy relatives turning up 😈
More guilt by association. If it looks like a bottle of demon alcohol then Bless gawd it is a bottle of demon alcohol!
*This message brought to you by, Outward Religion Inc. “When you care enough to stand in Judgment of all the rest.”
^^ Win!
I attended a wedding where the pastor and his wife left because they served this type of Welches for the toast.
they will be in heaven, while you knock on the door … outside
You mean they will be in the gated community in heaven. The rest of us may be in the common areas of heaven but these Independent, Fundamental, Separated, Holier-than-thou, 1611, King James only, sin hatin’,debil fightin’, door knocking, tract passin’, hymn only singin’, dyed in the woool Baptists will be locked away behind their gates of hell with a who’s who of fundie M-O-gs keeping guard over their flocks. /sarcasm
You are clearly mistaken Don.
That is certainly not heaven.
Oh of course, I see now that you said they will be “locked behind the gates of hell.” I get it now.
The truth is, what you describe does sound much more like hell than heaven.
At my brothers Catholic wedding reception my Baptist aunt asked my sister to move the champaign bottle so she could take a picture. My sister moved it so it was center in the table. They left the reception when the dancing started.
My parents once stormed all nine of us kids out of my uncle’s wedding reception for the same offence. As if THAT doesn’t hurt your testimony as a Christian!
Boy, o-boy, I’ll bet that showed them! hungh?
Yeah, cause that’s just what Jesus did with is 12 disciples at wedding receptions where there was alcoholic beverages involved. 😉
It is so funny that you should post this. I ran into this issue in Korea just last week. A friend and I went to a new bakery to pick up a cake for a coworker. When asked about the cake by the bakery owner, we explained about the coworker’s birthday, and the owner came back with a gift for her – sparkling grape juice, since he knew we were Christian school teachers. The little fundy I was with just about had an apoplectic fit when I accepted the gift and graciously thanked the man. The whole time I was accepting it, she was just going on about how we couldn’t and wouldn’t take it. I’ve never been so grateful to be the Korean speaker of the bunch. At least the store owner didn’t seem to understand her. I was so embarrassed at that foolishness.
We took both the gift and the cake to Sunday School the next day, and we got a whole other lecture from both the Sunday school preacher and the birthday girl about walking through the streets with this birthday grape juice making people think we just came from the bar! Nothing like a gracious thank-you when you can lambaste someone for a possible grievous sin! Personally, I think my testimony was better served graciously accepting a kindly offered gift than not having what could be liquor in my hand.
That’s why the don’t really understand grace. I would have opened the bottle and poured it on the cake.
Cause bars are known for selling bottles of grape juice, and cake.
Gotta love the fundies who bring their kind of Christianity to other cultures…”if they don’t act just like we think they should, they can’t really be Christians, can they?”
That being said, I have a lot of [non-fundy] friends who teach in Korea…what city are you in?
I’m up in Bucheon, outside of Seoul. I can’t believe how many Americans I’ve met in Korea!
I know people teaching in Seoul, Pyongtaek, and Uijongbu. No one in Bucheon, though. 😎
I go to church up in Oijungbo every now and then. That fundy is a lot less crazy than this fundy here in Bucheon. Wow! Small world!
I am totally craving a Korean cake now! So light, with that whipped topping and fruit . . . my mouth is watering.
My husband promised me that when our kids are grown, we can take a month-long trip to Korea. I CANNOT wait!
I’m with you there! The food is excellent here. When I go home, I am so having the breaded pork with pineapple sauce imported. 😀
Your story reminds me of this one:
“Sometime after World War II, during the reconstruction of Europe, the World Council of Churches wanted to see how its money was being spent in some remote parts of the Balkan peninsula. Accordingly, it dispatched John Mackie, who was then the president of the Church of Scotland, and two ministers from another rather severe and pietistic denomination, to take a jeep and travel to some of the villages where the funds were being disbursed.
“One afternoon Dr. Mackie and the other two clergymen went to call on the Orthodox priest in a small Greek village. The priest was overjoyed to see them, and was eager to pay his respects. Immediately, he produced a box of Havana cigars, a great treasure in those days, and offered each of his guests a cigar. Dr. Mackie took one, bit the end off, lit it, puffed a few puffs, and said how good it was. The other gentlemen look horrified and said, ‘No, thank you, we don’t smoke.’
“Realizing he had somehow offended the two who refused, the priest was anxious to make amends. So he excused himself and reappeared in a few minutes with a flagon of his choicest wine. Dr. Mackie took a glassful, sniffed it like a connoisseur, sipped it and praised its quality. Soon he asked for another glass. His companions, however, drew themselves back even more noticeably than before and said, ‘No, thank you, we don’t drink!’
“Later, when the three men were in the jeep again, making their way up a rough road out of the village, the two pious clergymen turned upon Dr. Mackie with a vengeance. ‘Dr. Mackie,’ they insisted, ‘do you mean to tell us that you are the president of the Church of Scotland and an officer of the World Council of Churches and you smoke and drink?’
“Dr. Mackie had had all he could take, and his Scottish temper got the better of him. ‘No, dammit, I don’t,’ he said, ‘but somebody had to be a Christian!'”
D.T. Niles, told at the sesquicentennial celebration of Princeton University; repeated by John Killinger, Pulpit Digest, July/August, 1992, pp. 12-13.
That is fantastic 😀
For some reason I would tend to think that the WCC couldn’t care less if clergy smoked or drank. I would think the biggest thing they would be concerned over would be to make sure you are preaching the gospel of Communism.
PLONK
Consider the timeframe – 1947 at the latest.
I remember as a kid, attending an older cousin’s wedding with the reception at the local VFW. First time i’d ever seen a wedding reception held anywhere but the church hall or seen anyone drinking anything that wasn’t coffee or fruit punch (unspiked) 😎 .
ah, the freedom once your reputation is shot 😆
Never thought of it that way. Good point.
I’ll drink to that.
That is an excellent point.
Fo’ real. My former pastor did me a favor by lying and destroying mine. 😉
We love this stuff! For a while I even used a bottle stripped of it’s tag as a vase for flowers. I was living dangerously then! 😆
I had a weird coincidence happen. My wife is taking a Medical Terminology class and one of the words that she told me about today is DIPSOPHOBIA. The definition an extreme fear of drinking alcohol.
So, lets all raise a glass to the fundy Dipsophobes in our lives. May they learn to relax.
I guess I’ll be drinking to my wife then.
One of the ironies is that the Welch’s company was founded by members of the temperance movement to provide a dry alternative to wine and strong drink. From Wikipedia:
The method of pasteurizing grape juice to halt the fermentation has been attributed to an American physician and dentist, Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869. A strong supporter of the temperance movement, he produced a non-alcoholic wine to be used for church services in his hometown of Vineland, New Jersey. His fellow parishioners continued to prefer and use regular wine. His son, Charles E. Welch, who was also a dentist, eventually gave up his practice to promote grape juice. In 1893 he founded Welch’s Grape Juice Company at Westfield, New York. The product was given to visitors at international exhibitions. The oldest extant structure associated with the company is Welch Factory Building No. 1, located at Westfield, and listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1983.[2]
As the temperance movement grew, so did the popularity of grape juice. In 1913, Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan served grape juice instead of wine during a full-dress diplomatic function, and in 1914, Josephus Daniels, Secretary of the Navy, forbade any alcoholic drinks on board of naval ships, actively replacing them with grape juice. During World War I, the company supplied “grapelade,” a type of grape jam, to the military and advertised aggressively. Subsequent development of new grape products and sponsorship of radio and television programs made the company very successful.
Welch was a Methodist. He was concerned about recovered alcoholics drinks.
My very strict IFB mother told me when I was a teenager that I should never leave a Coke can in my car because someone passing by and looking in my window might think it was a beer can. (That’s a long sentence, sorry).
Personally, I’d be more concerned about attracting creepy crawlies. And only the completely soused would mistake a Coke can for a beer can, and they wouldn’t care, they’d just want you to share.
I remember someone becoming angry with me for drinking Barq’s out of the can…it wasn’t someone who had any authority over me, so I ignored them and just enjoyed my cold brew, but it was one of those eye opening experiences. Also had a friend who was accused of drinking by someone who saw him drinking IBC from across a restaurant.
Thankfully we have Shoes here to keep us all on the straight and narrow…got to keep away from the near beer or we will slide right down the slippery slope and start listening to Steve Green whilst sipping wine coolers.
Ah Yes! Good Old “Baptist Wine”! Personally, I love the stuff- and have never felt guilty about buying it.
I don’t drink and I never have; as a Christian and as a minister of the Good News of Christ’s grace, I am called to a higer standard than those around me. God holds me accountable for what I do, and my conviction is that God does not want me to drink alcohol, as it would offend people who I am trying minister to. Sometimes, we are called to give up our rights to serve others.
I am not judging anyone who has a different take on the matter. Whether or not someone chooses to drink or not to drink is between them and God. I cannot be anyone else’e conscience. I am not the Holy Spirit! I am called to love and serve, not to condemn and judge. I just wish some of my fundamentalist friends would realize that!
Now see, you might be the kind of fundy I’d LIKE to have a drink with.
Ah, But I’m not a Fundamentalist, at least not of the Baptist variety! I was raised Independent Pentecostal and now serve at an Independent Church of God (Anderson, Indiana). Even though I might look like a fundy, (I read the King James [Because I like the language-I’m NOT KJO], don’t drink, and generally don’t listen to much “secular” music [mostly because it’s not very good musically! :-D]), but I had a prof tell me at while at seminary at Jerry Falwell U, that I was too nice of a guy to be a fundamentalist
Years ago, when buying IBC Root Beer, I would refuse the plastic bag because you can see through the bag enough to see that there’s a 6 pack of something in it, but not well enough to see that it’s root beer. I figured it’s better to carry it out in the open in case I’m seen by someone, rather than try to “hide” it and it be mistaken for beer. Crazy! I do know people who will not buy the sparkling grape juice because it could be mistaken for wine.
As teens, my siblings and I loved to buy sparkling grape juice for special occasions. My parents were clearly uncomfortable about it, but weren’t quite fundy enough to say it was wrong, even though our church would have disagreed.
More than once at Fundy High, we were told that if we were ever anywhere that there might be alcohol, we should “abstain from all appearance of evil.” This included if we ever had to go to something like a work reception that might have spirited beverages. We were taught that we should just have nothing to drink. I will admit to buying into the party line, until an agnostic friend convinced me that anyone that knew me may not know what I was drinking, but he would know what it wasn’t.
I still do not drink, but I will join in a toast with my soft drinks and wish well with those who do. And I have spent very enjoyable evenings with folks who partook. The saddest part of this, though, is my unsaved, unchurched friends don’t care if I drink or not. It is more often acquaintances, often from a similar legalistic background, who are proud of their ability to live free in grace that seem to take offence.
Fortunately, in Ontario, the only place you can purchase the alcohols is government-licensed stores (The Beer Store, LCBO), so the only appearance of evil you’d get is if you went into the LCBO to get sparkling grape juice. Which I’m pretty sure they don’t sell.
SFL #1004: conflating testimony with reputation. Because the eternal destination of every person you come in contact with depends solely on your ability to never screw up.
Ouch! Yes, the implication was strongly there in my fundy church! What a heavy burden that is too, to carry such an eternal responsibility for everyone you meet!
I’ve heard that same excuse used to condemn buying real wine to use in cooking. Even those who believe that drinking alcohol is evil sometimes have a hard time arguing against using it in cooking, so they often appeal to the the excuse of “what will the person at the check-out think?” Because the person working at the check-out has nothing better to do with their lives then silently judge everyone’s choice of groceries. 😆 🙄
Weaker Brothers™ (and Sisters™) are everywhere!!
The Iron fisted rule of the “Weaker Brother” (or Sister)
This is one of my biggest gripes with fundamentalism. Take going to the movies, for example.
According to Fundy logic, going to the movies is “an appearance of evil” on account of the fact that someone might wrongfully believe you are going to see a dirty movie and therefore conclude you are doing something evil. To go to the movies then is to possibly look like you are doing something sinful.
But who in their right mind will think that the pastor, his wife, and two small children are going to the theater to watch a dirty movie? Who will assume they are enjoying some wicked twist on Family Night?
Only the other fundies in their church, that is who.
And then what kind of hypocrisy leads them to conclude that it is okay to buy movies at Blockbuster… or the Red Box… or the movie section of Walmart… Don’t those provide equal opportunity to “appear evil?”
As others have said, their focus quickly turns to “appearing right” rather than actually being right. As we have all heard in our fundy churches of old, “God looks at the heart… but don’t forget that man looks on the outward appearance. Therefore, although God knows we are good by seeing our hearts, we need to help man along by showing them we are good with our Pharisaical bullshit.”
Not in those exact words, of course.
I once went to a fundy’s house who had a huge flatscreen and the recliners, etc and some secular movies in their collection and then she put it a christian movie about the life of Jesus but because she had some kind of “filter” device that was supposed to bleep or mute out swearing, the christian movie was almost unwatchable because it kept bleeping out God, Jesus etc. It was sad… 🙄
That is BRILLIANT!
My ex-wife was OK with sparkling grape juice, but wouldn’t stand for cooking wine in the house. She wouldn’t even eat anything that had cooking wine in the recipe. One less thing for me to worry about these days. 😀
A local fondue restaurant was offering a free cheese fondue and one of my fundy friends made sure to point out that it was possible to get non-alcoholic beer for the cheese. 🙄 We went to that restaurant this past weekend to enjoy the beer in the cheese and the wine in the chocolate. Because that is the only thing you can taste when you are eating the fondue. 😆
Cousin! My ex-husband threw out my cooking sherry. My crab bisque (his favorite) never tasted the same, but at least it wasn’t evil!
Cooking wine is awful. You should only use a wine you would be willing to drink. Cooking wines are usually filled with sodium, yuck.
On the one hand, you could use the self-check out line to avoid the appearance of evil. On the other, you’ve just given up what could be your only opportunity to give a tract to the cashier and tell them about the gospel. I say assume that heathen can read and get in the damned checkout line like everyone else.
I went to a fundy elementary school. At home alcohol readily available. If I wanted a drink I had it. No taboo. Built in consequences. I got drunk a couple of times and found out hangovers suck. my bride likes hard lemonade. I like strongbow cider and guiness stout. If my teenagers 14 & 16 want a pint they get it. no sneaking around and they always stop at one. sometimes fundies try so hard to be different that they lose their testimony. If being a christian means that I have to be a boring short haired white bread prick with a stick shoved up my butt then put me on the highway to hell
FTW! Or in other words, I totally agree.
I was buying a bottle of Pink Moscato at our local Walmart and ran into my pastor’s wife. A friend of mine asked if I told her I was using it to marinade steaks. I said “Now you know that Pink Moscato has one good purpose… GET IN MY BELLY!” Doesn’t bother me that I enjoy a glass of wine here and there, as long as I’m not drunk!
I was already out when I got married. My super funny dad had a talk with my then fiancé about serving alcohol… We had to send out two different invites for the reception.the one that went to the fundies ended at 8:30 (before dancing and alcohol) the other went til midnight. Anyway for the toast the fundies were there and we had requested sparkling grape juice so they could toast as well. No mentioned to them that it wasn’t champagne. Lol I wish I had video of their faces when the toast was given lol the glasses stayed put and they had their funny smile on. It was great…we had an open bar for later in the night but the punch and soft drinks were served from the bar and my dad asked them to take down all the alcohol so no one could see it lol.oh he is alway worried about his name and what people will think 🙂
alway worried about his name and what people will think…
Behold! the power of Fundiedom!
When I was growing up my mom was a fundy and my dad was an alcoholic. My mom used to want to keep that fact about him a secret and we were not allowed to speak of it to anyone. A few times when I was packing my lunch for school I couldn’t find the right sized or shaped bag for my lunch and actually left the house with my lunch in one of those long skinny bags you get at the liquor store with your bottle of *whatever* in it. I didn’t think anything of it at the time, but evidently my mom got a call from the school about it. I don’t know how she explained it, but I do know I was told not to use those bags for my lunches anymore. Ahhhh FUNDIES! Always a good source of stress. 😐
Hey, thanks for the heads up, I will make sure my youngest never takes one of those “black” plastic bags to put his lunch in… 😆
We were once heavily chastised by my fundy mother-in-law for buying frozen margarita mix to make non-alcoholic margaritas. It’s just a lime slushie!
I love the mix in the buckets. I’ve bought lime and strawberry so that I could mix tequila with the lime and water in the strawberry. Made it easier to know which one the kids could have. Of course I’ve also given my kids virgina piña coladas, daiquiris, sparkling cider, etc. They know when they are 21 they are welcome to join us in a REAL drink 🙂
Years ago when my young kids went to a fundie Christian school for a couple years (sorry kids)the yearbook came out with an ad for a Christian-owned charter bus company. Unfortunately for the school the photo contained a food tray with a bottle of wine and wine glasses. Since they apparently missed catching it during proof, someone was forced to black out the bottle and glasses in EVERY book with a sharpee. Comically, the blackout was in the general shape of the bottle and glasses!
And in a case of life being stranger than fiction, I once had a clerk tried to card me for buying the IBC root beer.
Me: root beer is nonalcoholic
Clerk: but it say’s beer on the label
Me: yes, but you’ll notice the computer didn’t alert and ask for ID when you rang it up
Clerk: oh, *long pause* oh yeah, never mind
The most amusing part was that the kid didn’t look at all fundy-long hair, multiple piercings and tattoos, I think he really did just look at the label and had one of those “duh” moments.
I was once told I could not buy ginger beer at three in the morning, because in my state you can’t sell alchohol past two. I had horrible nausea and could barely keep it down to correct the cashier.
An asst pastor, who sat on the platform during the preaching, would occasionally buy virgin cocktails at restaurants. The pastor once preached against this practice citing the “avoid the appearance of evil” verse. That had to have been awkward.
🙄
I generally have a bottle of red and a bottle of white grape juice in my fridge at all times [and, no, it doesn’t depend upon my mood tonight]. I buy the berry ones when they have them at my regular store (usually around holidays).
Also have 4 wine glasses that get occasional use when I’m feeling uppity. One of my favorites was the red juice with some frozen raspberries tossed in with it.
True story: We had sparkling, non-alcoholic wine at our wedding. At least one, if not two, of my husband’s aunts picked up the bottle and examined it thoroughly (presumably looking to ensure no alcohol was in it whatsoever) before pouring it into their glasses. 🙄
Trivia fact: The Welch’s empire was founded by a Methodist minister (and generally cool dude, awesome beard and conductor on the Underground Railroad) as a non-alcoholic substitute for wine at communion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch
I was scolded by my mom when I was in my early 20s for buying sparkling grace juice for a special picnic with my boyfriend. “Why would you want to LOOK like you were drinking wine?”
Now that is a wonderful term: Grace Juice! Sparkling Grace Juice. The fundies can have their Welch’s Legal Juice, I’ll take the wine of Grace everyday.
Thanks, George, for making me look witty instead of careless or uneducated.
That would be a great brand name for sparkling grape juice. 😎
Or Wine
Here’s one time I wish I could have avoided the appearance of evil.
Down the road from my house is a cowboy bar, named the Circle S Saloon. (Some local fundies, and not so fundy Christians, including my hubby, call it the Circle Satan. I actually think that’s pretty funny.)
Anyway, at one time, my car windshield had a crack in it. I had kept putting it off getting it fixed because I felt it wasn’t obstructing my view. But we often had a county cop hanging out near the Circle S making sure that people leaving the bar weren’t weaving or anything, and he thought the crack was far enough over into the driver’s side of the windshield to stop me. So, you guessed it, I got stopped right by the neighborhood bar by the cop who is known to hang out there watching for drunk drivers. I was really, really, hoping none of the neighbors who knew my car went by until I got along my way! 😳
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A silly blog dedicated to Independent Fundamental Baptists, their standards, their beliefs, and their craziness.
First?
Also, using the self-checkout for things like condoms – even if you’re married.
If you use the self-checkout but pay with a card you have lost your testimony to your bank’s computer you heathen.
Yes and second
Of course, this graphic is based on the assumption that wine is inherently evil (as well as a misunderstanding of the meaning of “appearance” in the passage).
Yes, there are layers upon layers of problems here.
1. The notion that wine is evil in a bottle even if it is not being drunk and that no good Christian would ever purchase it.
2. The notion that something that might be mistaken for wine is as evil as wine itself.
3. The notion that a cashier will inherently know 1 and 2 to be true and will further know that you are a Christian who is knowingly violating his own conscience.
4. That this knowledge of your hypocrisy is all it will take to send someone straight to hell.
I’m probably missing a few other points.
On the hermeneutical problem:
“The word ‘appearance’ in the Thessalonians passage does not mean what is commonly suggested: ‘If something might look evil then don’t do it just to be safe.’ Rather, the word refers to forms or manifestations of evil. Thus, the point is that the Christian should not engage in anything sinful in whatever way or form sin may manifest itself. A ‘Living Bible’ type paraphrase would be ‘don’t sin.'”
[#24 in Jerry Hullinger’s “58 Theses Regarding Christina Liberty and Legalism”]
You are correct.
And there we have a prime example of how King James language (as much as I love it) can be manipulated by confusing its antique usage with modern definitions.
I would love to read the “58 Theses.” Googled it but nothing came up. Where could I find it? Thanks!
Mind if I actually disagree? The word means outward appearance. eidos–it’s a cognate for one of the words for ‘sight.’ The problem is the context. Paul is telling them to reject anything that looks like evil /when they’re interpreting prophecy/. You’re still allowed to drink wine, but the KJV translation is fine there. 😛
I don’t mind if you disagree! I agree with you that (in context) Paul is speaking of prophecy. The word often means “outward appearance.” It can also mean “form” or “kind” as a synonym for genos (Thayer, Hendrickson, 172).
Which translation would make more sense (in context)?
1) Despise not prophecies. Test everything: keep the good, flee from all forms of evil.
2) Despise not prophecies. Test everything: keep the good, flee from everything that looks evil [but may or may not actually be evil].
A synonym for ‘genos?’ I haven’t seen that, I’ll have to investigate 😛
Alex, you’re partially right. “Appearance” would be accurate if the meaning was synonymous with “manifestation/occurrence.” But the word “appearance” in English has several different meanings. The ambiguity of the English wording does not appear to be present in the Greek wording.
can refer to the outward appearance of something — but it seems to refer to what is actually true (i.e. the appearance/form of someone [Luke 3:22, 9:29; John 5:37]. Contemporary usage of by Josephus and by the Apocryphal books bears out this concept.
As you suggest, “context is king” — i.e. meaning is derived from context. This is especially important when dealing with a translation from one language to another. There is rarely a direct, one-to-one equivalency. Contextually, there is little basis for arguing that means “what might seem to be.” Paul’s argument is a balance of “cleave to everything that is good/abstain from every thing that is evil.”
Just my two cents… 😀
Jesus Juke.
Self checkout for that? Ruining my testimony with a cashier? Never, ever crossed my mind, even as a fundy. It was grape juice for all that the bottle looked like wine. Same goes for IBC root beer. Likely a result of my misspent youth at a godless state university.
I’ll admit, though, to a certain thrill at thinking I was “getting away with something” the first time I bought some.
Fundies are so concerned about the outward appearance but never with obeying Christ’s command to love. It’s sad.
Guys used to put IBC bottles on the dorm windowsills at BJU just to bug people. There were a few hall meeting announcements regarding that.
I definitely flash my IBC cream soda bottles around just to bug people in my neck of the woods.
The thing is – the cashier is going to know its not alcohol because they won’t have to follow the computer prompts…
We buy a bottle of this for new year’s eve at my house. Didn’t know it was a problem for anyone. There is no such thing as self-checkout in my little town, either.
hope you have fun in hell
😯
I just laughed out loud in class…
Wow! You’re quite the comments preacher today! LOL! Definitely has already committed the great unpardonable!
Shoes, this is now my favorite post…
We do, too. Had to buy two bottle of it last year to share with our teenagers.
(And shoes is being facetious — a constant state with him.) 😉
I remember the first time I bought beer-I was 22, and in college. I do remember looking around. Same thing with condoms (wasn’t married)!
My fundy relatives would drive miles to get cooking wine.
One of the first times I drank a beer in public was at an outdoor cafe on a busy street corner in Chiang Mai, Thailand. Regardless of the fact that running into someone I knew there (someone who would care about the beer) would be nothing short of a miracle, I still had a hard time not feeling like I was doing something wrong.
Mm, I love sparkling grape juice. I don’t drink the real stuff, mostly because I like to maintain a sharp awareness of my surroundings at all time (because I once attacked my TV while I was half-asleep…but that’s another story.)
This pic brings back memories of 6th grade at my Christian school. On top of basically yelling at our class for looking at pictures of a developing baby in our Beka published health book, she once read us this devotional that had one kid showing off “imitation wine for kids” to her friend, and the friend had a crisis of conscience. Never really thought of it as imitation wine…pre-wine, maybe. Cracks me up.
Heehee — the Beka health book with the chapter on baby development. I remember poring over that chapter many times. It was horribly fascinating; I just couldn’t keep from going back to it.
Oh yes, that chapter was fascinating. I do imagine the good people at Beka cringing over having to type “birth canal.” I do think babies developing in the womb have a sort of beauty to them, because they’re new life. But I don’t think looking at a baby chapter (with honest, no mention at all of sex) warranted being yelled at by the teacher.
I remember them talking about the baby coming out, but they should have specified which orifice was the birth canal. I was, um, confused about that till someone straightened me out in college… 😳
There is beauty in all life — and, for goodness sakes, that teacher shouldn’t have yelled at you for looking in a school book.
Oh, the memories! I was also confused for many years about exactly which hole the baby came out. Don’t remember who set me straight.
Years later, teaching biology to high school kids overseas, one student getting extra help was stunned to learn “girls have 3 holes, boys have 2”. So stunned, in fact, that he made sure to announce it to the entire class the next day – sure enough, many were shocked at the revelation! Not sure how many were girls that were surprised… And the textbooks at that school had full diagrams and told it straight (though tastefully).
Oh man, this reminds me. Shortly after I was married I found myself explaining to my husband the “three hole” thing! He was amazed–and kind of relieved about where a baby would be born from! 🙂 Oh the joys of growing up in prudish fundy homes!
Oh, God, Christian school anatomy. I didn’t realise there was such thing as a ‘birth canal’ (to use the euphemism :P) at all until the onset of menstruation.
The problem is that fundies see what they want to see. They see you going to the theatre and automatically assume you’re there to see the R rated film instead of the G rated one. Or that something they see you buying in a dark bottle has to be liquor. My husband brought home a bottle of ginger beer a couple weeks ago and it was in a bottle that looked like a beer bottle. If one of the people from the former church had seen him they’d have thought oh how far they’ve fallen since leaving our church!
I remember the former pastor saying that when he was moving he flat refused to use any moving boxes that had the name of a brand of liquor on them lest someone think he was drinking beer. There are no limits to the sanctimonious prig-ism of these people! Of course they always use the verse about avoiding the appearance of evil, which has some merit but they take it to ridiculous lengths.
Like not allowing my husband to pick up a woman for church unless I’m with him. Even if she’s very young or very old, so to them it was better that she had no ride than that she ride with him alone! Thank God the new church and new pastor are a lot more reasonable! 😀
goes right to the heart of the issue with fundamentalism…I Cor. 13 in their beloved KJV says Love “thinketh no evil”
discernment has become paranoia, accountability has become authoritarianism (neither of which are biblical anyway), and love has become hatred. the doublespeak makes my head spin.
By thinking evil of others, fundies are actually failing to avoid the appearance of a very common form of evil. They are in fact violating the principle by changing it.
Great response, captain solo. I was going to remark on how unChristian it is for fundies to automatically assume the worst, but you stated it better than I would have!
No wonder there’s so little joy among the fundies I knew: always grimly thinking about evil instead of believing the best.
Hey, the last time I moved I was a regular at the local liquor store on Thursdays when the new shipment came in. Liquor boxes are great for packing books, because when they are full they are not too heavy for me to lift. Who cares if some of my former Baptist friends looked through the window and saw me helping myself to the pile the sales clerk saved for me. Now I unashamedly buy wine at the neighborhood supermarket and enjoy a glass with dinner frequently. As I approach 70, I think I’ve at last grown up.
Someone told my mom she needed to use beer for slugs in her garden. She was horrified — she couldn’t *possibly* buy beer!!! We also had to avoid the liquor aisle in the grocery — couldn’t even walk past it without feeling a little flutter of guilt every time. smh.
Beer is in the ice cream aisle at our store. Wine is in produce. How would a fundy ever be able to shop at our local store?
Ah, the joys of small town life! We have some weird placement of stuff in our local grocery stores too, but because of our geographical location, the beer does not have to share any aisle. There is, in fact, a small walk in refrigerator that’s open to the public in our corner store with a sign above it, “Beer Cave.” Redneckville, anyone? 😆
So would your testimony be absolutely ruined if you bought the plastic champagne glasses to drink your sparkling grape juice?
Cheers!
“Red solo cup, I fill you up.
Let’s have a party, let’s have a party.
I love you red solo cup, I lift you up,
Proceed to party, proceed to party.”
somehow this prompted a very irreverent picture of a communion service in my mind.
Great, now this is going to be in my head all day long. 😛
Yes! All sorts of glasses were verboten!
I remember being sternly told as a child that the adorable tiny glasses I liked in my grandma’s china cabinet were whiskey shot glasses — the assumption being that I shouldn’t therefore like them, even though to my childish eyes and hands they were “just right.”
I remember getting into this club where they sent you books every month and with each set of books they’d send you a wine glass. It was very pretty. I didn’t end up joining the club but I was able to keep one of the glasses. I used it for juice and milk. I liked holding it by the stem. But the thing eventually broke. It’s really too bad when you have to feel naughty for drinking milk or juice just because of the glass you’re using. 🙄
I know your testimony would be ruined to environmentalists! I try not to buy the plastic kind anymore. (But then, I can be a little bit of an environmental nut too.)
Ahh yes. The appearance of evil. A pastor once told me that I was hurting my testimony by being on the internet while my wife was out of the house. 🙄 🙄 🙄
I guess that tells me more about him than it does me.
As a good fundy, if I see someone coming out of a gas station I assume that they went in to buy a six-pack, some smokes and a dirty magazine. No way they could be there to simply buy gas.
Anyone remember the days when strict fundies would not eat in a restaurant that served alcohol? Or shop at a grocery store that sold it? I’ve heard of people putting their would be purchases back on the shelves when they discovered the place sold beer/wine.
I’ve discovered that out in the non religious world (and maybe in some religious households) the sparkling grape juice and cider was served on special occasions like Thanksgiving and Christmas to the kids so they wouldn’t feel left out of the celebrations.
A little country church tried that for a while…but folks just couldn’t stop going to Wal-Mart.
even worse….at my Fundy High School, we had to place our lunch orders with the lunch lady, who would retrieve it from the lunchroom. We were not allowed to order Cheerwine or Root Beer, but instead were instructed that we were only allowed to address the offending soft drinks as “Cheer” and “Root.” We also never drank Root Beer floats, we drank “Root Floats.” Dear Lord, I wish I was making this up……sigh.
Did you have to order chicken chest too?
HAAA!!! LOL I am sure we would have, if it had been on the menu…. 🙄
Congratulations Strangely Warmed. You have received my “most hilarious comment” award! (Whatever that is!) But the reserved one cannot stop laughing! 🙂
What about a 5+1 pack?
Remember the days nothing! My father-in-law to this day will not. 🙄
Well, now, there’s an easy way to have family functions without awkward fundy relatives turning up 😈
More guilt by association. If it looks like a bottle of demon alcohol then Bless gawd it is a bottle of demon alcohol!
*This message brought to you by, Outward Religion Inc. “When you care enough to stand in Judgment of all the rest.”
^^ Win!
I attended a wedding where the pastor and his wife left because they served this type of Welches for the toast.
they will be in heaven, while you knock on the door … outside
You mean they will be in the gated community in heaven. The rest of us may be in the common areas of heaven but these Independent, Fundamental, Separated, Holier-than-thou, 1611, King James only, sin hatin’,debil fightin’, door knocking, tract passin’, hymn only singin’, dyed in the woool Baptists will be locked away behind their gates of hell with a who’s who of fundie M-O-gs keeping guard over their flocks. /sarcasm
You are clearly mistaken Don.
That is certainly not heaven.
Oh of course, I see now that you said they will be “locked behind the gates of hell.” I get it now.
The truth is, what you describe does sound much more like hell than heaven.
At my brothers Catholic wedding reception my Baptist aunt asked my sister to move the champaign bottle so she could take a picture. My sister moved it so it was center in the table. They left the reception when the dancing started.
My parents once stormed all nine of us kids out of my uncle’s wedding reception for the same offence. As if THAT doesn’t hurt your testimony as a Christian!
Boy, o-boy, I’ll bet that showed them! hungh?
Yeah, cause that’s just what Jesus did with is 12 disciples at wedding receptions where there was alcoholic beverages involved. 😉
It is so funny that you should post this. I ran into this issue in Korea just last week. A friend and I went to a new bakery to pick up a cake for a coworker. When asked about the cake by the bakery owner, we explained about the coworker’s birthday, and the owner came back with a gift for her – sparkling grape juice, since he knew we were Christian school teachers. The little fundy I was with just about had an apoplectic fit when I accepted the gift and graciously thanked the man. The whole time I was accepting it, she was just going on about how we couldn’t and wouldn’t take it. I’ve never been so grateful to be the Korean speaker of the bunch. At least the store owner didn’t seem to understand her. I was so embarrassed at that foolishness.
We took both the gift and the cake to Sunday School the next day, and we got a whole other lecture from both the Sunday school preacher and the birthday girl about walking through the streets with this birthday grape juice making people think we just came from the bar! Nothing like a gracious thank-you when you can lambaste someone for a possible grievous sin! Personally, I think my testimony was better served graciously accepting a kindly offered gift than not having what could be liquor in my hand.
That’s why the don’t really understand grace. I would have opened the bottle and poured it on the cake.
Cause bars are known for selling bottles of grape juice, and cake.
Gotta love the fundies who bring their kind of Christianity to other cultures…”if they don’t act just like we think they should, they can’t really be Christians, can they?”
That being said, I have a lot of [non-fundy] friends who teach in Korea…what city are you in?
I’m up in Bucheon, outside of Seoul. I can’t believe how many Americans I’ve met in Korea!
I know people teaching in Seoul, Pyongtaek, and Uijongbu. No one in Bucheon, though. 😎
I go to church up in Oijungbo every now and then. That fundy is a lot less crazy than this fundy here in Bucheon. Wow! Small world!
I am totally craving a Korean cake now! So light, with that whipped topping and fruit . . . my mouth is watering.
My husband promised me that when our kids are grown, we can take a month-long trip to Korea. I CANNOT wait!
I’m with you there! The food is excellent here. When I go home, I am so having the breaded pork with pineapple sauce imported. 😀
Your story reminds me of this one:
“Sometime after World War II, during the reconstruction of Europe, the World Council of Churches wanted to see how its money was being spent in some remote parts of the Balkan peninsula. Accordingly, it dispatched John Mackie, who was then the president of the Church of Scotland, and two ministers from another rather severe and pietistic denomination, to take a jeep and travel to some of the villages where the funds were being disbursed.
“One afternoon Dr. Mackie and the other two clergymen went to call on the Orthodox priest in a small Greek village. The priest was overjoyed to see them, and was eager to pay his respects. Immediately, he produced a box of Havana cigars, a great treasure in those days, and offered each of his guests a cigar. Dr. Mackie took one, bit the end off, lit it, puffed a few puffs, and said how good it was. The other gentlemen look horrified and said, ‘No, thank you, we don’t smoke.’
“Realizing he had somehow offended the two who refused, the priest was anxious to make amends. So he excused himself and reappeared in a few minutes with a flagon of his choicest wine. Dr. Mackie took a glassful, sniffed it like a connoisseur, sipped it and praised its quality. Soon he asked for another glass. His companions, however, drew themselves back even more noticeably than before and said, ‘No, thank you, we don’t drink!’
“Later, when the three men were in the jeep again, making their way up a rough road out of the village, the two pious clergymen turned upon Dr. Mackie with a vengeance. ‘Dr. Mackie,’ they insisted, ‘do you mean to tell us that you are the president of the Church of Scotland and an officer of the World Council of Churches and you smoke and drink?’
“Dr. Mackie had had all he could take, and his Scottish temper got the better of him. ‘No, dammit, I don’t,’ he said, ‘but somebody had to be a Christian!'”
D.T. Niles, told at the sesquicentennial celebration of Princeton University; repeated by John Killinger, Pulpit Digest, July/August, 1992, pp. 12-13.
That is fantastic 😀
For some reason I would tend to think that the WCC couldn’t care less if clergy smoked or drank. I would think the biggest thing they would be concerned over would be to make sure you are preaching the gospel of Communism.
PLONK
Consider the timeframe – 1947 at the latest.
I remember as a kid, attending an older cousin’s wedding with the reception at the local VFW. First time i’d ever seen a wedding reception held anywhere but the church hall or seen anyone drinking anything that wasn’t coffee or fruit punch (unspiked) 😎 .
ah, the freedom once your reputation is shot 😆
Never thought of it that way. Good point.
I’ll drink to that.
That is an excellent point.
Fo’ real. My former pastor did me a favor by lying and destroying mine. 😉
We love this stuff! For a while I even used a bottle stripped of it’s tag as a vase for flowers. I was living dangerously then! 😆
I had a weird coincidence happen. My wife is taking a Medical Terminology class and one of the words that she told me about today is DIPSOPHOBIA. The definition an extreme fear of drinking alcohol.
So, lets all raise a glass to the fundy Dipsophobes in our lives. May they learn to relax.
I guess I’ll be drinking to my wife then.
One of the ironies is that the Welch’s company was founded by members of the temperance movement to provide a dry alternative to wine and strong drink. From Wikipedia:
The method of pasteurizing grape juice to halt the fermentation has been attributed to an American physician and dentist, Thomas Bramwell Welch in 1869. A strong supporter of the temperance movement, he produced a non-alcoholic wine to be used for church services in his hometown of Vineland, New Jersey. His fellow parishioners continued to prefer and use regular wine. His son, Charles E. Welch, who was also a dentist, eventually gave up his practice to promote grape juice. In 1893 he founded Welch’s Grape Juice Company at Westfield, New York. The product was given to visitors at international exhibitions. The oldest extant structure associated with the company is Welch Factory Building No. 1, located at Westfield, and listed on the National Register of Historic Places in 1983.[2]
As the temperance movement grew, so did the popularity of grape juice. In 1913, Secretary of State William Jennings Bryan served grape juice instead of wine during a full-dress diplomatic function, and in 1914, Josephus Daniels, Secretary of the Navy, forbade any alcoholic drinks on board of naval ships, actively replacing them with grape juice. During World War I, the company supplied “grapelade,” a type of grape jam, to the military and advertised aggressively. Subsequent development of new grape products and sponsorship of radio and television programs made the company very successful.
Welch was a Methodist. He was concerned about recovered alcoholics drinks.
My very strict IFB mother told me when I was a teenager that I should never leave a Coke can in my car because someone passing by and looking in my window might think it was a beer can. (That’s a long sentence, sorry).
Personally, I’d be more concerned about attracting creepy crawlies. And only the completely soused would mistake a Coke can for a beer can, and they wouldn’t care, they’d just want you to share.
I remember someone becoming angry with me for drinking Barq’s out of the can…it wasn’t someone who had any authority over me, so I ignored them and just enjoyed my cold brew, but it was one of those eye opening experiences. Also had a friend who was accused of drinking by someone who saw him drinking IBC from across a restaurant.
Thankfully we have Shoes here to keep us all on the straight and narrow…got to keep away from the near beer or we will slide right down the slippery slope and start listening to Steve Green whilst sipping wine coolers.
Ah Yes! Good Old “Baptist Wine”! Personally, I love the stuff- and have never felt guilty about buying it.
I don’t drink and I never have; as a Christian and as a minister of the Good News of Christ’s grace, I am called to a higer standard than those around me. God holds me accountable for what I do, and my conviction is that God does not want me to drink alcohol, as it would offend people who I am trying minister to. Sometimes, we are called to give up our rights to serve others.
I am not judging anyone who has a different take on the matter. Whether or not someone chooses to drink or not to drink is between them and God. I cannot be anyone else’e conscience. I am not the Holy Spirit! I am called to love and serve, not to condemn and judge. I just wish some of my fundamentalist friends would realize that!
Now see, you might be the kind of fundy I’d LIKE to have a drink with.
Ah, But I’m not a Fundamentalist, at least not of the Baptist variety! I was raised Independent Pentecostal and now serve at an Independent Church of God (Anderson, Indiana). Even though I might look like a fundy, (I read the King James [Because I like the language-I’m NOT KJO], don’t drink, and generally don’t listen to much “secular” music [mostly because it’s not very good musically! :-D]), but I had a prof tell me at while at seminary at Jerry Falwell U, that I was too nice of a guy to be a fundamentalist
Years ago, when buying IBC Root Beer, I would refuse the plastic bag because you can see through the bag enough to see that there’s a 6 pack of something in it, but not well enough to see that it’s root beer. I figured it’s better to carry it out in the open in case I’m seen by someone, rather than try to “hide” it and it be mistaken for beer. Crazy! I do know people who will not buy the sparkling grape juice because it could be mistaken for wine.
As teens, my siblings and I loved to buy sparkling grape juice for special occasions. My parents were clearly uncomfortable about it, but weren’t quite fundy enough to say it was wrong, even though our church would have disagreed.
More than once at Fundy High, we were told that if we were ever anywhere that there might be alcohol, we should “abstain from all appearance of evil.” This included if we ever had to go to something like a work reception that might have spirited beverages. We were taught that we should just have nothing to drink. I will admit to buying into the party line, until an agnostic friend convinced me that anyone that knew me may not know what I was drinking, but he would know what it wasn’t.
I still do not drink, but I will join in a toast with my soft drinks and wish well with those who do. And I have spent very enjoyable evenings with folks who partook. The saddest part of this, though, is my unsaved, unchurched friends don’t care if I drink or not. It is more often acquaintances, often from a similar legalistic background, who are proud of their ability to live free in grace that seem to take offence.
Fortunately, in Ontario, the only place you can purchase the alcohols is government-licensed stores (The Beer Store, LCBO), so the only appearance of evil you’d get is if you went into the LCBO to get sparkling grape juice. Which I’m pretty sure they don’t sell.
SFL #1004: conflating testimony with reputation. Because the eternal destination of every person you come in contact with depends solely on your ability to never screw up.
Ouch! Yes, the implication was strongly there in my fundy church! What a heavy burden that is too, to carry such an eternal responsibility for everyone you meet!
I’ve heard that same excuse used to condemn buying real wine to use in cooking. Even those who believe that drinking alcohol is evil sometimes have a hard time arguing against using it in cooking, so they often appeal to the the excuse of “what will the person at the check-out think?” Because the person working at the check-out has nothing better to do with their lives then silently judge everyone’s choice of groceries. 😆 🙄
Weaker Brothers™ (and Sisters™) are everywhere!!
The Iron fisted rule of the “Weaker Brother” (or Sister)
This is one of my biggest gripes with fundamentalism. Take going to the movies, for example.
According to Fundy logic, going to the movies is “an appearance of evil” on account of the fact that someone might wrongfully believe you are going to see a dirty movie and therefore conclude you are doing something evil. To go to the movies then is to possibly look like you are doing something sinful.
But who in their right mind will think that the pastor, his wife, and two small children are going to the theater to watch a dirty movie? Who will assume they are enjoying some wicked twist on Family Night?
Only the other fundies in their church, that is who.
And then what kind of hypocrisy leads them to conclude that it is okay to buy movies at Blockbuster… or the Red Box… or the movie section of Walmart… Don’t those provide equal opportunity to “appear evil?”
As others have said, their focus quickly turns to “appearing right” rather than actually being right. As we have all heard in our fundy churches of old, “God looks at the heart… but don’t forget that man looks on the outward appearance. Therefore, although God knows we are good by seeing our hearts, we need to help man along by showing them we are good with our Pharisaical bullshit.”
Not in those exact words, of course.
I once went to a fundy’s house who had a huge flatscreen and the recliners, etc and some secular movies in their collection and then she put it a christian movie about the life of Jesus but because she had some kind of “filter” device that was supposed to bleep or mute out swearing, the christian movie was almost unwatchable because it kept bleeping out God, Jesus etc. It was sad… 🙄
That is BRILLIANT!
My ex-wife was OK with sparkling grape juice, but wouldn’t stand for cooking wine in the house. She wouldn’t even eat anything that had cooking wine in the recipe. One less thing for me to worry about these days. 😀
A local fondue restaurant was offering a free cheese fondue and one of my fundy friends made sure to point out that it was possible to get non-alcoholic beer for the cheese. 🙄 We went to that restaurant this past weekend to enjoy the beer in the cheese and the wine in the chocolate. Because that is the only thing you can taste when you are eating the fondue. 😆
Cousin! My ex-husband threw out my cooking sherry. My crab bisque (his favorite) never tasted the same, but at least it wasn’t evil!
Cooking wine is awful. You should only use a wine you would be willing to drink. Cooking wines are usually filled with sodium, yuck.
On the one hand, you could use the self-check out line to avoid the appearance of evil. On the other, you’ve just given up what could be your only opportunity to give a tract to the cashier and tell them about the gospel. I say assume that heathen can read and get in the damned checkout line like everyone else.
I went to a fundy elementary school. At home alcohol readily available. If I wanted a drink I had it. No taboo. Built in consequences. I got drunk a couple of times and found out hangovers suck. my bride likes hard lemonade. I like strongbow cider and guiness stout. If my teenagers 14 & 16 want a pint they get it. no sneaking around and they always stop at one. sometimes fundies try so hard to be different that they lose their testimony. If being a christian means that I have to be a boring short haired white bread prick with a stick shoved up my butt then put me on the highway to hell
FTW! Or in other words, I totally agree.
I was buying a bottle of Pink Moscato at our local Walmart and ran into my pastor’s wife. A friend of mine asked if I told her I was using it to marinade steaks. I said “Now you know that Pink Moscato has one good purpose… GET IN MY BELLY!” Doesn’t bother me that I enjoy a glass of wine here and there, as long as I’m not drunk!
I was already out when I got married. My super funny dad had a talk with my then fiancé about serving alcohol… We had to send out two different invites for the reception.the one that went to the fundies ended at 8:30 (before dancing and alcohol) the other went til midnight. Anyway for the toast the fundies were there and we had requested sparkling grape juice so they could toast as well. No mentioned to them that it wasn’t champagne. Lol I wish I had video of their faces when the toast was given lol the glasses stayed put and they had their funny smile on. It was great…we had an open bar for later in the night but the punch and soft drinks were served from the bar and my dad asked them to take down all the alcohol so no one could see it lol.oh he is alway worried about his name and what people will think 🙂
alway worried about his name and what people will think…
Behold! the power of Fundiedom!
When I was growing up my mom was a fundy and my dad was an alcoholic. My mom used to want to keep that fact about him a secret and we were not allowed to speak of it to anyone. A few times when I was packing my lunch for school I couldn’t find the right sized or shaped bag for my lunch and actually left the house with my lunch in one of those long skinny bags you get at the liquor store with your bottle of *whatever* in it. I didn’t think anything of it at the time, but evidently my mom got a call from the school about it. I don’t know how she explained it, but I do know I was told not to use those bags for my lunches anymore. Ahhhh FUNDIES! Always a good source of stress. 😐
Hey, thanks for the heads up, I will make sure my youngest never takes one of those “black” plastic bags to put his lunch in… 😆
We were once heavily chastised by my fundy mother-in-law for buying frozen margarita mix to make non-alcoholic margaritas. It’s just a lime slushie!
I love the mix in the buckets. I’ve bought lime and strawberry so that I could mix tequila with the lime and water in the strawberry. Made it easier to know which one the kids could have. Of course I’ve also given my kids virgina piña coladas, daiquiris, sparkling cider, etc. They know when they are 21 they are welcome to join us in a REAL drink 🙂
Years ago when my young kids went to a fundie Christian school for a couple years (sorry kids)the yearbook came out with an ad for a Christian-owned charter bus company. Unfortunately for the school the photo contained a food tray with a bottle of wine and wine glasses. Since they apparently missed catching it during proof, someone was forced to black out the bottle and glasses in EVERY book with a sharpee. Comically, the blackout was in the general shape of the bottle and glasses!
And in a case of life being stranger than fiction, I once had a clerk tried to card me for buying the IBC root beer.
Me: root beer is nonalcoholic
Clerk: but it say’s beer on the label
Me: yes, but you’ll notice the computer didn’t alert and ask for ID when you rang it up
Clerk: oh, *long pause* oh yeah, never mind
The most amusing part was that the kid didn’t look at all fundy-long hair, multiple piercings and tattoos, I think he really did just look at the label and had one of those “duh” moments.
I was once told I could not buy ginger beer at three in the morning, because in my state you can’t sell alchohol past two. I had horrible nausea and could barely keep it down to correct the cashier.
An asst pastor, who sat on the platform during the preaching, would occasionally buy virgin cocktails at restaurants. The pastor once preached against this practice citing the “avoid the appearance of evil” verse. That had to have been awkward.
🙄
I generally have a bottle of red and a bottle of white grape juice in my fridge at all times [and, no, it doesn’t depend upon my mood tonight]. I buy the berry ones when they have them at my regular store (usually around holidays).
Also have 4 wine glasses that get occasional use when I’m feeling uppity. One of my favorites was the red juice with some frozen raspberries tossed in with it.
True story: We had sparkling, non-alcoholic wine at our wedding. At least one, if not two, of my husband’s aunts picked up the bottle and examined it thoroughly (presumably looking to ensure no alcohol was in it whatsoever) before pouring it into their glasses. 🙄
Trivia fact: The Welch’s empire was founded by a Methodist minister (and generally cool dude, awesome beard and conductor on the Underground Railroad) as a non-alcoholic substitute for wine at communion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Bramwell_Welch
I was scolded by my mom when I was in my early 20s for buying sparkling grace juice for a special picnic with my boyfriend. “Why would you want to LOOK like you were drinking wine?”
Now that is a wonderful term: Grace Juice! Sparkling Grace Juice. The fundies can have their Welch’s Legal Juice, I’ll take the wine of Grace everyday.
Thanks, George, for making me look witty instead of careless or uneducated.
That would be a great brand name for sparkling grape juice. 😎
Or Wine
Here’s one time I wish I could have avoided the appearance of evil.
Down the road from my house is a cowboy bar, named the Circle S Saloon. (Some local fundies, and not so fundy Christians, including my hubby, call it the Circle Satan. I actually think that’s pretty funny.)
Anyway, at one time, my car windshield had a crack in it. I had kept putting it off getting it fixed because I felt it wasn’t obstructing my view. But we often had a county cop hanging out near the Circle S making sure that people leaving the bar weren’t weaving or anything, and he thought the crack was far enough over into the driver’s side of the windshield to stop me. So, you guessed it, I got stopped right by the neighborhood bar by the cop who is known to hang out there watching for drunk drivers. I was really, really, hoping none of the neighbors who knew my car went by until I got along my way! 😳