105 thoughts on “Guilt and Fear as Motivation”

  1. “My hind stinking leg.” There’s a mental image that I did not need.
    Also, concerning cell phones: I have serious problems with the cell phone dependent, but I think it may be overstating the problem to call it spiritual retardation.

  2. i was thinking “this guy must be some kind of tri-pod, with a right, left, & hind leg”.

    i would think his mouth would stink more than his hind leg, though, on account of all the [expletive deleted] coming out of it.

  3. “I don’t think Jesus is getting what He paid for” !!! And with that heretical statement, I turned the video off. What a weak god he speaks of. It’s not my Savior! This guy is nuts.

  4. What a weak god he speaks of.

    Kim you succinctly summed up the overarching problem with Fundyism.

  5. I really enjoy listening to Paris Reidhead’s sermon, “Ten Shekels & A Shirt”. He describes most of the service to God by man as what it really is – humanism… trying to serve a god by human means. Man is the end-all and not God Himself. It can be church attendance, time in prayer, Bible reading, witnessing, preaching, teaching, or anything related to being a “christian”. Most fundies treat these as Olympic sports and have levels of competition in each. Rubbish. If we think we are serving and satisfying a god by are own good works, then we have nothing left to do except pat ourselves on the back and look for a place in hell. You serve God by accepting who He is and what He has done for you. Our motivation for serving Him is not fear, guilt, or manipulation but out of love for the Son.

  6. I naturally assumed this video was old for the first few minutes, until he mentioned cell phones and I saw the date of May 2010. I thoroughly enjoy the whole preaching to the choir aspect – he’s handing down judgment on people who are not in the crowd he’s speaking to. Brilliant.

  7. And yet Paris Reidhead is loved by every fundie I know. In fact, this guy below bases his whole ministry around the rantings of this legalist.

    http://www.godkillspeople.com <— the result of listening to nothing but Tim Conway, Paul Washer and Paris Reidhead (and a bit of Ravenhill).

    I understand the sermon and also think it's quite good in some regards, but I've seen the fruit of that kind of preaching to believers and it's bad.

  8. I’d say this guy is definitely “getting in the way”.

    I can’t save anybody, I can just try to get in the way 😛 I know what he means, but it ain’t what he said 😛

  9. A thought, and I don’t intend to argue with you Richard, but have you ever read any of Scofield’s material that wasn’t dispensational? He brings out a great thought in some of his literature. That even OUR Love for God is not a pure enough motive. Rather, it must be His life in us that motivates us, and His love in us and His Son in us.

    When I saw that and recently started to understand it, it was freeing – I didn’t have to try and “love” God more, because Christ in me is all I need and anything from myself is unworthy anyway, but Christ working in me as I rest in him (his yoke is easy), produces fruit that is pleasing to God.

    Good thoughts 🙂

  10. exIFB wrote, “his yoke is easy”

    That verse never worked in Fundyland. The Fundy yoke is so very hard.

  11. So true! “My yoke is easy; my burden is light” rarely seemed to be an accurate description of the Christian life! And then that laid an additional burden of guilt on me because God’s Word is true, so if the yoke seemed burdensome, then obviously the problem was with ME!!! Thank the Lord, as I grow to understand His Word outside of the traditions I’ve been taught, I am finding joy and freedom!

  12. Catholics are accused of trying to work their way into heaven. Yet I have never heard a sermon telling me to do this or do that or not do this or I’ll burn in hell. In fact, most Catholic homilies that I hear encourage me to love God and love my neighbor as Jesus taught.

    The Pharisetical preaching of fundies never ceases to amaze me. Fear. Guilt. Intimidation. Shunning. Outward appearances. Humiliation.

  13. Redemption as measured by David Grice is one that I don’t want any part of. I doubt the ones that don’t want to go to youth camp have a primary motivation of “no cell phones” rule, it’s just the easiest excuse he’s handed them to avoid addressing the real problems he’s creating.

  14. Psalm 147:3 says, “He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. ”

    According to this guy any Christian who is discouraged needs to be slapped around a little bit and told to stop thinking about themselves.

  15. I get tons of help running the sound from text messages from others around the auditorium telling me if they are hearing high end feed back or low end buzzing, etc. Maybe that’s why so many fundies sound quality is so bad! 🙂 Actually I’ve seen the way most fundies do sound, put it in, have someone set it once and cover the board to keep dust off of, and don’t have anyone ever touch anything.

  16. You guys have brought up a good discussion. Why do the preachers in IFB want to make our burdens heavy? Why do they want us to carry the burden for something that Christ already died for on Calvary? We should not continue in sin, that I know, but we should not try to bear the burdens for our sins either. Christ has done that for us.

  17. I wanna txt him my response.

    You know it is interesting because he uses “stink’n” a lot. I can think of another word that would fit real well there.

  18. @Loren not to mention the burden of running around and trying to block other people from sinning. This guy thinks he’s a spiritual super hero, and isn’t ashamed to tell the whole world how great a job he is doing saving people from their sins.

  19. “According to this guy any Christian who is discouraged needs to be slapped around a little bit and told to stop thinking FOR themselves.”


  20. I made it through 50 seconds of this balloon juice and then quit. I started to have flashbacks to fundyism.

  21. I’m with Kim. After he said, “I don’t think Jesus is getting what He paid for” I turned it off. I can’t stomach fundies version of the gospel anymore. They are so holier than thou, so manipulative, so sickening!!!
    I praise God I am no longer messed up with this cult! I don’t want thier god I desire the true, living God!

  22. @Richard Sullivan, Good comment.

    ” I’m not picking at you tonight, I love you” LOL. That’s love I can do without. I wonder if he realized he went too far in his comments.

  23. 2 things after contemplating this again,
    1. In what possible way could he come remotely close to “blessing God”? That to me is taking God’s name in vain.
    2. I have to agree with the previous post. “I’m not picking at you. I love you” How interesting that he was screaming about how horrible I am for the last 5 minutes… I feel very loved, let me tell you.

  24. I love how he thinks that the only reason we’ll be crying is because one of our loved ones was going to hell. Why can’t we have tears of joy? Oh yeah, “joy” is not in the funy vocabulary.

  25. I’ve been to this church before , ’bout 10ish years ago.

    I also visited another church featured here- they guy who railed against Lahaye’s book. That was back in ’93ish

    I’m still traumatized.

  26. Oh I should add that I even went to this guy’s house (I am pretty sure it was the same guy- I KNOW it was the same church) .

    I visited with a friend from college and they had a college lunch thing at his house after church that day. In college, you will do just about anything for a home cooked meal….

    I duked it out with him over CCM. Hid best defense was “Be ye not of the world” I tried to get him to explain what made it “wordly” and it went something like this…..

    “Well it originated in Africa- so it is demonic”

    “Oh really, what proof do you have of that”

    The Bible says so!!”



    “that proves nothing”

    “it is demonic”

    “so….songs taken word for word from the Bible and added to music with a beat is demonic?”

    “Satan quotes the Bible”

    “no, Satan TWISTS the Bible….”

    I had him flustered and babbling in circles. Fun times! 🙂

  27. “I’m not picking at you. I love you”

    UGH. I heard that so many times. *shudder* Every time I would mutter under my breath, “NO, you DON’T.”

  28. @ exIFB: I hope you didn’t miss the context of what I was trying to say. Even in fundy circles, there are some who have seen the humanism at work for missions and service to God. I’m not by any means defending them (IFB’s) or their tactics. I’m greatly opposed to them.

    As far as love being our motivation for serving Him, I’ll stand by what I said. “If you love me, keep my commandments ” John 14:15,21. It’s a God-given love since we have no love for God when we were dead in our trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).

    I’m well-aquainted to the teachings of Paul Washer & Leonard Ravenhill. I appreciate what Washer is trying to do with the current church – awaken those that are trusting in easy-believism. He is a Calvinist in the SBC and is very disdained by the current regime of the SBC. I was an SBC pastor and hope there will be more Calvinistic SBC pastors to teach the wonderful doctrines of grace (Founders.org).

    As far as Scofield, he was the key person to push the modern dispensational teachings that are so rampant today. I personally favor millennialism but not dispensationalism. Dispensationalism has been around since about the 1830’s and was pushed by Darby, Plymouth Brethren, Moody, Four-Square Gospel, and then promoted by Scofield and his bible. Scofield is a “saint” held in the highest regard in fundy circles so I got rid of my Scofield years ago – and haven’t missed in the least. Grace – Rich

  29. Richard,

    let me tell you what easy believism is to me –

    It is easy for me to believe I can do something to get God’s attention, whether it is committing myself to him, obeying the commandments, being a “good” Christian, turning from my sins, praying a prayer, walking an aisle etc. To me, Lordship Salvation (and MacArthur gladly takes that label, so I’ll use it), and the quick prayerism of the fundies is one and the same – man must do something to soften God, to make God willing to save. I know I can find a dozen quotes where Washer says “grace through faith alone” but I can find a hundred more where he demands works. Washer and Ravenhill have a gospel where sanctification and works are required just as much as any fundy gospel. The only difference is that people in fundy circles are trusting in a prayer or an aisle walk, and people in lordship circles are trusting in their good works as evidence – and those that are honest doubt constantly because works are never good enough for anything.

    Not sure if you know a guy named “TheWoodsOfJordan”. He spoke to me about 6 months ago because he was dealing with doubts, fear and wasn’t sure of his salvation because of sin – and all he listened to was Paul Washer and a few other Lordship guys. About a month ago, he completely turned away from Christianity – he couldn’t live it, because he was being constantly demanded to “examine thy works”. I pray he comes back to God. While “TheWoodsOfJordan” doesn’t prove anything, he is just another example of the bad fruit I have seen from this legalistic style of preaching that seems to be so popular on youtube today.

    What is hard and was impossible but by the grace of God is to simply believe He did it all. I don’t see how simply trusting God at His word is “easy believism”. You must admit there is nothnig in you worth saving, you can’t do anything, even commit to Christ, which totally destroys pride, which is why I refer to the fundy trick gospel as quick prayerism.

  30. The point was – washer and ravenill and conway use as much fear and guilty as motivation, actually more so, than this david grice idiot.

  31. @beth, yeah you know what everyone in the congregation was thinking when he said his favorite verse was, “let us cast off the weight that so easily entangles…”

  32. I don’t know about others, but Washer just plain teaches false things.

    In one vid, he said he can merely look at a woman and tell if she is ‘wicked’. FALSE Washer can NOT tell if a woman is ‘wicked’ just by looking at her. He is equating himself with God here- Blasphemy. A woman in short shorts and a tank top can be far more, truly and Biblicaly ‘Godly’ than a woman in a shapeless dress.

    He said that ‘fruit’ is what you wear, the music you listen to, the jokes you laugh at…. FALSE Fruit is love, joy, peace, etc……

    He says that ‘love’ is telling people they are going to burn in hell if they do not toe the line FALSE…The Bible says that love is patient, kind, etc….Is there a Bible passage that I am missing that backs up the “telling them in love” line?

    He blames women for men thinking bad thoughts FALSE Men are responsible for their own lustful thoughts. Jesus did not say “it is the woman’s fault if a man looks at her and sins in his heart” he said squarely put the responsibility of lust on the man. Jesus would have clearly pointed it out if the woman is at fault, too….however being the creator of the male brain Jesus/God knew men will think lustfully even if the woman in question is wearing a potato sack that shows nothing at all.

    He said that Matthew 25 applies ONLY to helping Christians and not the world at large. FALSE There is NO indication what so ever that says helping others only refers to fellow believers. Jesus made it crystal clear that “whatever you do to the least you do to me.”

    ~of interest here, when the goats are tossed in the fire, there is NO mention of what they wore, what they listened to, etc, none of the things Washer thinks we should follow. I’ve asked many times (in many places) and have yet to receive an answer…..is there ANY other verse or passage that states if you do not do X then you are tossed in the ‘fire?’ I don’t think it gets much more clear than Matt 25 as to what, exactly, is expected of us.

    He says that you can tell a false prophet because he tells you what you want to hear… FALSE! You can tell a false prophet by his perversion of scripture, even if it is an ‘unwanted’ or ‘hard’ message.

    I could go on…..

    I can agree that salvation is not a ‘one and done’ deal but that is pretty much ALL I can agree with him on.

    Don’t even get me started with his misuse of the Bible passages about the narrow gate, teachers being judged more harshly, and “lord lord” He uses them as though they back up what he teaches but they do not back him up at all….they, along with his “If you don’t agree with what I say then your issue is with God- not me” line….just set up people for unquestioning acceptance. I could use those exact passages and that line to PROVE that we should literally beat our children….oh wait…. People DO! 🙁

    I even had someone quote him in a debate once the quote something along the lines of “people who are wrong are so assured of their rightness” they seriously thought THAT would shut the conversation down-proving Washer is right!! HAH! No.

  33. Thank you Robin. It is amazing how many people will defend this false teacher while attacking others guilty of the same thing.

    I love that opening line

    “I think there are two kinds of preachers popular in America today: those who tell you how absolutely splendid you are, and those who tell you how absolutely rotten you are. The former make a lot of money. The latter, being more earnest, simply make a lot of friends. (They don’t count their friends, of course; they only count their enemies, hoping to find themselves persecuted for Christ’s sake.)”

    There aren’t many preachers who simply preach Christ crucified and let sinners behold a beautiful Saviour that loves them and died for them. They always gotta add conditions.

  34. NP. exIFB. The man makes my blood boil. He is a WOLF and a FALSE TEACHER! So many of my friends follow him and it just makes me so sad.

    I honestly do not understand how people believe he teaches grace- he teaches a pure WORKS based salvation- there is no grace in his world.

    Praise Gid for saving me from such heresy! My heart burns daily for those caught up in lies.

  35. @Robin: In Matt25:40 it says the least of these my brothers. Would’nt that be believers? Jeus is the firstborn Among many brothers.Rom8:29. Just because it’s talking about belivers does not mean that one should only do good to fellow believers. Gal.6:10 Says to Do good to all epsecially they that are of the household of faith as we have opportunity.

  36. You are right, Phill, V40 does have ‘brothers’ V45 does not, though (NIV-I’ll check other versions). The Bible does have instruction to take care of fellow believers- but not to the exclusion of others as Washer seems to teach.

    One must look at the whole counsel of scripture and not just at individual verses/passages. The greatest command was illustrated with the good Samaritan story. I am sure there were some of the 5,000 and 3,000 that Jesus fed who were not believers- yet they were fed their fill.

    Sadly, I saw a discussion on a friend’s FB wall about this very thing. They believe that it is a ‘waste’ to help people in need who are not (their brand) believers. They also think that church is *only* for (their brand) believers.

    I find that kind of thinking to be completely anti-Biblical and against everything Christ stood for. Jesus healed/fed/ ministered to many- I am sure some went on in their unbelief in him. He was also followed by thousands (church on the mount or the sea side!), again, I am sure that many walked away still unbelieving.

    One rough fitting example from this same group mentioned above. I am an ‘sinful’ working mother- I am trying to get a business going so I can eventually work from home. Not a one of them will buy my products because I work outside the home and they would be supporting my ‘sin.’ This was, of course, said to me ‘In love’ *HURK*

    Uh. OK. I work because my child has medical needs that costs 2K a month after insurance. I have no choice in the matter. However, they won’t help ‘bring me home’ by supporting my business.’ Nope- not until I am home full time will they then support my business. Methinks I would never sell to them based on principle alone.

  37. @Jesus did all those things, but he also corrected wrong motives when people followed him solely because they got fed and exhorted them to seek spiritual food . Why would verse 45 be talking about a different group? Again I’m not negating helping non-belivers(Gal 6:10).

  38. I am not understanding where you are trying to go, here. I stated that Washer seemingly teaches that we only need to take care of the needs of Believers.

    I’ve said noting about correction or motives of those who say they believe. I was simply pointing out how Washer is a false teacher and that loving others and taking care of them is central to what Christ taught.

  39. it is all good. I was just commenting on Washer because he came up. I just see his name and I twitch.

  40. I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again (since Washer seems to be coming up quite frequently on this blog lately). Washer is not representative of all (most?) Calvinists. I think it’s safe to say that he’s an unknown figure to a lot/most Calvinists out there, especially those outside SBC circles. There are those who take issue with at least some of what he says and how he says it. All I’m saying is don’t judge the doctrine based on the way one man has used it.

    He spoke to me about 6 months ago because he was dealing with doubts, fear and wasn’t sure of his salvation because of sin – and all he listened to was Paul Washer and a few other Lordship guys. About a month ago, he completely turned away from Christianity – he couldn’t live it, because he was being constantly demanded to “examine thy works”.

    You are saved by grace alone though faith alone in Christ alone. Christ is the one who saves. That’s it. Any emphasis on examining yourself to see what you’ve done (as in fundamentalism) is never healthy.

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