Friday Challenge: What Did You End Up?

If you’ve left fundamentalism, the challenge to day is to tell us where and what you are now. Maybe you’ve got a new denominational label, maybe you’ve decided to abandon labels all together, or maybe you’re just plain confused.

It’s rather difficult to leave somewhere without ending up somewhere else. Share a bit about your greener pastures.

271 thoughts on “Friday Challenge: What Did You End Up?”

  1. I was raised fundamentalist Baptist and pastored two different fundy churches before I made my leap, was de-ordained, and ended up getting re-ordained by the Presbyterian Church in America. Now I’m ministering in the Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches which is made up of both baptist and paedobaptist churches. I love the freedom and the way we go about living with our differences and I feel like I’m light years removed from my fundy upbringing.

    I’ve been lurking for a while. I love your site. Keep up the good work.

  2. I was sort of involved with some fundy people in high school. I never got totally sucked in though. I was raised a nominal Methodist and after college, (State Ivy) , I wasn’t much of anything. I found the Unitarian Universalist church in mid age. I finally have a spiritual home where I am free to find my own theology.

    @Andy, my UU church is an hour away (one way) but well worth the drive. No creed, no dogma, no guilt!

  3. Never part of IFB, but a sufficiently fundamentalist-influenced SB church whose pastors were happy enough with the designation of “fundamentalist.” I’m now a confessional Lutheran, and so happy and relieved to be saturated with the Gospel at last, where there was formerly an overwhelming central focus on OBEDIENCE with Jesus left way back on a hill far away. Btw, to Dan Keller, a small inaccuracy: Lutherans don’t recognize seven sacraments, as in confirmation, marriage, unction, ordination and reconciliation. Insofar as we’re forced to number them, we’d say Baptism and the Lord’s Supper– and possibly confession/absolution, but that we see as a continual returning to Baptism.

  4. left IFB, ended up briefly in a personality-driven church with fewer standards but still pressure to conform to the elders and NOT question their decisions (RED FLAG).

    now in a non-denom charismatic church with Anglican underpinnings. Not sure what will happen long-term. In the process of shedding IFB relationships (although they mostly leave ME).

  5. 0-16 poorly catechized Roman Catholic (this was the 70’s & 80’s, ya’ll)
    16-26 Agnostic/Wiccan/New Age
    26 Profound Christian conversion experience
    26-28 Evangelical Protestant
    28-30 Conservative Mennonite moving toward Old Order
    30s Conservative Mennonite, Calvary Chapel, Messianic, Eastern Orthodox, Calvary Chapel, Conservative Mennonite
    34 Required two weeks @ Wellspring to get deprogrammed from fundamentalism (thank You, Lord!)
    35 Roman Catholic

    I’m 42 now and a *very* peaceful, joyful and grateful Catholic! And when I visit our Eastern Rite parishes, I even get to have my Orthodox cake and eat it, too! 😉 God is *sooooooo* good!

    It’s all about history, kids. Jesus began a Church.

    Much grace, peace and love to all as you find your way back to Him.

  6. Well, I never did share my leaving story, partly because I never got around to it, nor felt like taking the time writing a brief autobiography. But I’ll input here.

    After I left my “homechurch” of IFB land, I ended up going to one of the local IFB megachurches. Weird I know. Was there for two months, then left. Then happened upon a “Bible Church” claiming non-denominationalism. Which at first, I loved the concept. But after ya know, 6 months, all of these triggers and flags started popping up left and right. I remember someone saying on another post about a “myth”, though not really, about how Bible churches are really Baptist but don’t want to admit it. And needless to say, same said Bible church was 100% IFB, just Calvinized and disguised.
    So, recently left there, and have just been kinda around…Although I’m currently looking into and studying the Orthodox Church. Has always intrigued me since I first learned about it. So we’ll see what happens in the coming time. Long-term, who the heck knows.

  7. I guess I’m officially “coming out” now. 😀 I ended up in a non-everything church – Grace Church of Philly (http://www.gracechurchphilly.org). We’re a multi-ethnic congregation focused on “Gospel Growth” in the University City, Powelton Village, and Mantua neighborhoods of Philly. We’re “non-everything” because we refuse to wear labels or wave flags. We don’t identify as fundamentalist or evangelical, dispensational or reformed, Calvinist or Arminian, traditional or contemporary, nothing. We focus on the common grace we share as believers in Christ and celebrate that bond every Sunday around the Lord’s Table. The gospel is truly at the center of what we do and it drives our outreaches into our neighborhoods.

    It’s been so refreshing to find a real church family. A lot of fundy churches will call themselves a “family” but there’s nothing about it that’s really like a family. At Grace, the recovering addict, with his scars and things he’s still working through, is as much my brother as the seminary graduate leading worship. There is a true family spirit there that cuts through racial, economic, and social lines. I’ve found myself coming out of my shells and masks over the last few weeks as I re-learn what it means to live truly under grace. So many things that I grew up thinking were crucial I see now just don’t matter that much.

    There is great freedom to be found living in grace! Praise God for bringing me out of the fog and into the clarity of what the Christian life really should be about!

  8. I attend a PCA church, but have purged most titles in my life other than Christ Follower. When my IFB friends, that are left that is, ask I tell them I am digging being a Presbyterian!

    @Bassenco, I love what you said about giving tithe directly to the poor. My husband and I recently started spending more time in the poorest sections of our city, and it’s been an eye opener! I feel much more in touch with them as I ever have and since my husband is out of work, we are trying to come up with ways to minister and give to the people of those areas in ways that don’t require money.

  9. I’ve never commented here, but this is such an interesting list to read through that I feel compelled to comment now. I grew up in IFB church (dad was pastor mostly) and went to PCC (much to the chagrin of my BJU folks). After leaving, I attended an IFB church that wasn’t as bad as most but still reacted very negatively to my divorce which caused me to search for a place I could worship without judgment. Honestly, if I didn’t have a 2.5 year old when I divorced, I probably would have stopped going altogether for a while. I bounced between Southern Baptist, another IFB and every other form of protestantism but didn’t find a place I really fit until the non-denominational place I’m at now. The music would certainly get me kicked out of PCC, but the LU graduate pastor is solid and full of teachings on grace. I also remarried a Catholic, and nearly gave poor mom and dad a heart attack since they are missionaries to Catholics. He’s mostly non-practicing though since he went through a divorce as well. So now we have a blended family with a kid of our own attending a non-denominational church, plenty of Catholic discussion and study of saints and some Waldorf educational supplementation to boot. We’re paving our own way. 🙂

  10. Grew up in the GARBC, a milder form of fundamentalism than the BJU, Hyles-Anderson, Pensacola background peeps on this sight, yet still dealt with about half of the fundy issues that Darryl posts (such as rock music, avoiding appearances of evil, quirky fundy cultural stuff, and etc…)

    I run a inner-city ministry called Urban Transformation Ministries UTM) in Grand Rapids MI that reaches out to high-risk teens and young adults through evangelism, discipleship and social justice ministries. Of course since we are involved in social action programs, many of my old fundy friends have written me off as neo-evangelical, social gospel, and liberal……(I was dropped from my home church 20 years ago for those reasons).

    Currently I am one of the leaders of a non-denominational inner-city church-plant.

    Our ministry (UTM) is supported by a Grand Rapids GARBC church called Berean Baptist (they are our sending church) that only has a few of the fundamentalist quirks. Also, they never embraced the doctrine of second degree separation as most GARBC churches still do, which allows Berean to partner with us………

  11. Hmmmm not really sure yet. I am still with my parents so I don’t have the freedom to find out yet. Also there are Alot of different church that have been mentioned that I have never heard of and others I have heard of but never really learned about ( reasoning for that was always something to with the way to spot a counterfeit is not to study the counterfeit but to study the real thing) so I have alot of exploring to do. But more then likely I will go to a non denom until I figure out where I fit

    Blessings from up north

  12. Grew up Hyles/Ruckman/SoTL fundy. Went to BJU and then on to vocational “ministry” in a BJU church. Thought we moved to GARBC “middle” only to find it was just as fundy.
    Now… 7 years post-fundy as I near 50 years old: attend a “Bible” church, elder led, Trinity Evangelical grad for pastor. One service/wk with small groups in homes every other week. Don’t want to have “theology” discussions with anyone trying to pigeon-hole me with a label. Stayed in the hell-hole that was fundyland for too long. Still singed in a few places but healing.

  13. Grew up totally BJU church IFB. All my beliefs were completely shaken when I figured out that being gay wasn’t my choice and it was actually ok. I haven’t landed anywhere solid yet as far as what I know to be true, other than that I know God is; it doesn’t make sense to me otherwise. I don’t go to church (and don’t miss it at this point), don’t accept the Bible as literal, completely inspired or preserved, and am very suspicious of anyone who is dogmatic about much of anything. Don’t know where I’ll end up in my beliefs, but I know that I’m more happy and content now than I ever was in fundyism.

  14. Grew up churched (Sydney Anglican), left it for IFB in the early-mid 2000’s.

    Left the IFB church last year. Am now a Pauline dispensationalist (not quite mid acts, not quite acts 2 – Miles J Stanford seems to share my views, and some of Watchman Nees stuff too). The church I attended was very much Hyles/SotL style Fundie, maybe not as legalistic, but probably because it was small. Mainly I rejected the works sanctification, works salvation, and judgmental attitude towards those that don’t believe the same as me (however, I still find it difficult to fellowship with other Christians, because new evangelicalism is like a whole other world to me that I just don’t get) as well as odd interpretations of scripture that seemed to contradict others.

    I now believe in the free grace of God as opposed to the Lordship Salvation view I held prior (to me, men like Ray Comfort are just as “fundy” in their preaching on sanctification as IFB’s, and I was listening to him a lot during my stint as a fundy)

    I attend a small open brethren assembly.

  15. I became fundie a few years back (and dragged my folks along with me) and after a short stint in the Presbyterian Church I’m heading home to Rome. I looked into Orthodoxy but found myself agreeing (both historically and exegetically) with the Catholic claims for the papacy.

    I’ll most probably end up a priest, or a monk, not sure. My old IFB pastor, who, once upon a time I was doing an internship with, thinks I’m an apostate and on my way to the fires of hell. It’s funny how you can pray, go “soul-winning” and read the Bible with someone, then after you’ve taken a turn in theology they can have the nerve to say “you were never saved.”

    I’m thankful for being a fundie though, I was there long enough to develop a desire for truth but managed to get out before my life was wrecked (unlike a friend of mine).

    Thanks a lot for this site Darrell.

  16. @Markus @James, classic Doctor Who (and Rod Serling’s Twilight Zone, for that matter), included writers who used a lot of Christian references. They are great entertainment that also plops Christian thought into historic and “otherworldly” and “classic” situations that get you to realize how big this world is, and how much of it we don’t even know about until we go out and explore it. Fundies grow up in a shell, a lot of them missing the very basic, overall harmless exposure to open minded thought and discussion. Orwell’s ANIMAL FARM/1984 take it to the next level. I think everybody emerging from abusive churches, usually having no idea that what they have been through have formed some really big themes in literature, get a real eye opener when they read Orwell’s best known classics.

    Ditto with actually taking your tithe/offering and handing it directly to the needy. You just see how big this world is and what a difference you can make as a Christian, as long as you don’t lock yourself away in some church that wants you to turn off your mind and conscience.

    And don’t forget the beer!

  17. 0-13 – IFB

    13-18 – Public School

    19-30- Traveling the world whitewater kayaking, rock climbing, and exploring Central America, but I always kept my KJV in my backpack. Somehow I got a degree in the process.

    30-31 – Tried a seeker sensitive church, and they preached the same 10 fluff sermons, but just changed the name of the sermon series every 6-8 weeks or so.

    31 -32 – Back to being an IFB. Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old he will not depart from it.

    After reading the above posts, this quote from Ravi Zacharias comes to mind:

    “Deep in the human heart we are not battling intellectual ideas as much as we are fighting for the right of our sexual inclinations and passionate indulgences. If you consider this to be outlandish, Aldous Huxley said it when he wrote his book Ends and Means, “We objected to morality, because it interfered with our sexual freedom.”
    We have normal drives. I am continually surprised at how intense temptation can be even when my heart and mind long to do that which is right in the eyes of God, but at least in the power of the Holy Spirit He gives you that restraint, and gives you the power to resist those temptations, but that is not to deny the reality of those temptations.”

    It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. At that judgment, all of the excuses about your mean IFB pastor are going to fall by the wayside in the presence of a holy God. Seek ye the Lord while he may be found.

  18. Books for those interested in the Early Church Fathers:

    Early Church Fathers – Mike Acquila

    Faith of the Early Fathers: William A. Jurgens

    Four Witnesses: The Early Church in her own words by Rod Bennett

    Books for Baptists interested in Catholicism:
    Catholicism and Fundmentalism – Karl Keating

    Crossing the Tiber by Stephen K. Ray

    I have read all these books and can recommend them to you if you are interested at all in the Church Fathers or the Catholic faith. They’re just a beginning – careful, you might get hooked!

  19. @wildman, you wrote, “At that judgment, all of the excuses about your mean IFB pastor are going to fall by the wayside in the presence of a holy God.”

    My guess is that a lot of IFB pastors themselves will fall by the wayside in the presence of a holy God when He demands to know why they abused His sheep:

    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me,
    ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his
    angels:
    For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and
    ye gave me no drink:
    I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me
    not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee
    an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in
    prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you,
    Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it
    not to me.
    And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the
    righteous into life eternal.
    Mat 25:41-46

  20. @ wildman would you care to elaborate on

    all of the excuses about your mean IFB pastor are going to fall by the wayside in the presence of a holy God. Seek ye the Lord while he may be found.

    before I start bashing it as a sanctimonious fundy cliche’.

    We here are fully aware of the reality of a Righteous, Holy, Just, Almighty God. Probably more so than most IFB, self anointed, m-o-g’s that use the so-called sacred desk as their own personal bully pulpit. But thanks for the reminder of what we have left.

    As for myself I know I will stand brfopre the Almighty, Holy, Righteous, Just terrible Creator God of the Universe… but not on my own, not in my righteousness, but clothed in the Righteousness of the Son of God. My sins- past-present and future are all covered by the saving workd of Jesus Christ. All my sins are forgiven and I am in the Fathers hand and none can pluck me out. So just how does your statement apply here?

  21. Wildman, I like what you have to say. I myself am now in a southern Baptist church, but more about God and less about me. God directed me into ministry and opened the door for this work. Some folks are going to regret the churches they left. Sure there are man centered churches and pastors, but some really want to help guide you away from living out of the necessity of the flesh. Everyone has standards about something. There is always going to be someone who thinks you are too legalistic about a certain thing.

  22. @Morgan: I second your recommendation of Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism. There’s nothing I like more than the debunking of bad myths. And I’ve looked at Four Witnesses several times, so I’ll definitely check it out, now.

  23. 0-4 Conservative Baptist Church
    4-16 GARBC
    16-26 IFB
    26-37 Brethren (in Portugal)
    37-53 Independent Fundamental non-denoms

    From 53 until now, I was moving toward more traditional worship, and was confirmed in the Anglican Church (Anglican Mission in the Americas) in 2008.

    Honestly, I still have a lot of trigger points. I had moved almost into Post-Evangelical à la Brian McClaren, and sometimes my church is more Evangelical that is comfortable for me. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder nearly shut me down completely for a couple of years. But, I love the liturgy, and the sacraments.

    My grandchildren were baptized in the church, and while I wasn’t raised in that tradition, I think it has value in that the whole church community makes a promise to encourage the child in his faith. I have never had a problem with the Eucharist. After being in a church where the pastor was in total control and doled out the Lord’s Supper on rare occasions because he felt he was responsible if someone took it unworthily, I love having it every Sunday. And I’ve come to believe that the sacraments are a means of grace because I have seen it happening in my family.

    I have visited Catholic churches as well, and while I don’t agree with some of the doctrine, the order of service is very like the Anglican service, and I feel at home when I am there. Lacking a good Anglican church, I could see myself heading for a Lutheran, or maybe a Catholic church. If any church at al.

  24. I didn’t exactly grow up Hyles-Anderson, but I grew up with my own version of funk. STRONGLY 5-point Calvinist, women in dresses AND heads coverings, no CCM (though that evolved as I got older and somehow some country music and Air Supply slipped through), piano or organ music only, predominantly hymns, etc. My grandpa, who was also my pastor, went to BJU, met my grandma there, and left. He denounced portions of it and kept others. The church was independent and used the KJV (they claimed not to be KJV-only but other versions were often denounced).

    Now I’m a member of Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis. I’m a small group leader and serve on the worship team, as an usher, etc., so while I’ve had and continue to have plenty of struggles with my faith, I haven’t given up on it. Because my pastor, John Piper, is Reformed, he was often quoted in church by my grandpa while I was growing up so there haven’t been any family rifts about where I attend. My grandpa even went to Desiring God’s pastor’s conference, though he quit going because he couldn’t handle the drums and other elements of the music.

    I don’t know if this is where I’ll end up. I can’t ignore the sovereignty of God that is so strongly presented in the Bible, so I don’t see myself leaving the Reformed circles. I do struggle with the size of our church though and would like to be in one that’s smaller, more intimate, and affords more personal accountability. Between a preference for a more intimate size, an appreciation for more energizing music, and a few other factors, I wouldn’t be surprised if I wound up somewhere else, but Bethlehem has been a great place for me for the last 8 years and a very, very refreshing change from what I grew up with!

    Oh, and I read through each and every one of the comments here. Thanks for this topic Darryl. It was really helpful to get other people’s perspectives.

  25. I am forever thankful that despite the spiritual/emotional abuse, horrible view of God, and the extreme legalism and lack of grace, I knew to blame the IFB and not God for my hurt and confusion. It took me a long time to sort out exactly what I believe as opposed to what had been force-fed down my throat for 23 years, but I have come out still firmly believing in the “fundamentals” of the Protestant Christian faith (ie, salvation by Christ alone, eternal security, the Trinity). But I will never attend a Baptist church again, or one that has a list of rules that members must follow.

    Right now I attend a non-denominational church in Washington State which used to be Baptist but wised up and dropped the affiliation. It’s an amazing church body. The pastor is brilliant and loving. He preaches the Bible, nothing more, nothing less. He never preaches something as truth that is only his opinion. He doesn’t preach against anything that is not clearly condemned in Scripture (ie, no sermons about which movies not to watch, which music not to listen to, which clothes not to wear, how to school your kids, etc.). Our worship is contemporary. The majority of the congregation think it’s perfectly okay to have a beer. I can wear jeans to church. It is led by elders and there are multiple pastors, so there is accountability and no “one leader” mentality. My husband is in the Army though and we won’t be here much longer…I have a feeling that if we move somewhere (such as a state down South) and can’t find another similar church, we’re going to have a hard time going at all.

  26. After being raised Fundy and living it for 40 years, then becoming disillusioned and attending nowhere for 5-6 years, I was chrismated in the Antiochian Orthodox Church last December. I always wondered what happened between 70AD and Martin Luther. What joy….what release!

  27. As so many have said, my journey is continuous. After growing up in the home of a IFB minister, and spending two years at BJU, I am a proud Unitarian Universalist.

  28. I don’t need church, I have friends and family. I don’t join clubs, ever – not even Costco. Grew up (forced into it) IFB, escaped at 14 never looked back. Still deal with the scars, PTSD daily. It was a BJU satellite. Destroyed my childhood, estranged me to this day from my mother. Got a university education, married an agnostic jew. I believe in the holy spirit. I have had prayer directly answered and this is coming from a very skeptical person. Still struggling with how to sort it all out. Don’t know what to tell me kids but I’m leaning towards not telling them anything or wait for the words to come, trust in the holy spirit, etc. I have good days and bad days with all of this. 20 something years later and I still feel pretty raw. I dunno.

  29. Reading SFL for a long time but this is my first post. I left fundyland a year and a half ago (a church in the BJU circle). First tried the PCA but didn’t like the few local PCA churches. I am now a member of an SBC church that isn’t as conservative as your average Southern Baptist church, but I am not completely happy at this particular church. I am staying there for the moment because I feel like I am making a difference: I speak up about legalism and fundamentalism at my church and find the other members thankful for my insights. Many are just not that familiar with the excesses of the fundies; many have never heard of such things as KJV-only before. Been reading a lot of John Piper lately and, more and more, I’ve been getting prophetic words about things going on in my friends’ lives.

  30. @Katie – welcome home! God grant you many years!

    @maybegray – I make it a practice not to argue with others about religion, but I might have to talk to you about that Costco thing…..

  31. @ mike w “Those who have been through it and have made it can testify to the beauty that is around the bend for you if you can persevere.” That reminds me of the song “Beauty Will Rise” by Steven Curtis Chapman. Life is messy and often full of heartache, but God is still good!

  32. i’ve told my tale a few times, but here goes: grew up ifb. gave up god for booze. tried to be an athiest but it never really stuck. decided to get sober and give fundyism another shot (which was convenient, as i had been given the option of “be homeless or go clean up at the roloff homes”). sobered up. at the roloff homes i saw fundyism in its purest form: irrational, ahistorical, antiintellectual, antiscriptural, brainwashing, mean, and (in one or two cases that i was aware of) abusive. somewhere during the booze stage of my live a friend had become Orthodox and had given me a bunch of books. i had now read too much to take anything Protestant seriously (no offense to anybody- very smart, faithful people, who i respect, have come to the exact opposite conclusions). upon successful completion of the “character building” program at the roloff homes, i immediately enrolled as a catechumen in the Orthodox Church (much to my mother’s chagrin. though my father was quite cool with it, remarking that it “reminded him of the Catholic Church before they screwed it up in the 60’s”. (again, no offense. his words.)) i met my beloved wife at my first visit. (you can find her comments above, next to my unfortunate mug).

    -as an aside: to any singles looking to leave fundyism: i highly recommend switching religions and getting married at the same time. you can never have too many major life events at once. also, getting married helps distract the family from the fact that you’re utterly rejecting everything they tried to instill in you as a kid.

    back to the story: became Orthodox, took the name “Moses” after St. Moses the Black (hence, the “Mo” in my name). started chanting. recorded a CD with my then-fiance a couple other chanters (you’ll want to buy it here: http://www.liturgica.com/cart/musicInfo.jsp?catNo=AB040 ). got married. moved & chanted for a small mission in a horrible town, became a tonsured reader (hence the “Reader” in my name). moved back home. somewhere along the line had twins and then another kid. never been happier. am now the protopsaltis (first chanter) at the parish in which i converted. life is good. never looked back. never reconsidered fundyism. it’s just so stupid. so stupid.

    that was way too long. carry on.

  33. @Amanda and Morgan: great books! as I said before, church history rocks

    I love that there are so many Orthodox readers on this site!!

    @Reader Mo: I really really really wanted to take Abba Moses as my patron saint! I just love him! But they said I had to have a girl…oh well, St. Elisabeth is pretty cool too. 🙂 But Abba Moses is great and such an example of humility:

    “A brother at Scetis committed a fault. A council was called to which Abba Moses was invited, but he refused to go to it. Then the priest sent someone to say to him, ‘Come, for everyone is waiting for you.’ So he got up and went. He took a leaking jug, filled it with water and carried it with him. The others came out to meet him and said to him, ‘What is this, Father?’ The old man said to them, ‘My sins run out behind me, and I do not see them, and today I am coming to judge the errors of another.’ When they heard that they said no more to the brother but forgave him.”

  34. June 1, 2009 we left. To date we have attended 4 different churches off and on. We essentially are deciding where we want to attend and tend to bounce between ” I never want to participate in organized religion again!” to “We need to get back into a church for the kids.”

    Maybe all of us who are churchless should send our tithes to a “FundaMENTAList recovery fund.” Or just send it to Darrell.

  35. @reader mo I knew there was something about you that clicked for me. It’s the twins and then another kid thingy. 🙂 The twins are HS seniors this year… the littlest is in 2nd grade 🙂

  36. 1980-1989 baptist
    1989-2001 extreme fundy baptist
    2001-2005 non-demominational
    now part of the Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church. I combat my legalism tendencies by trying to remember that i am to love people and actually wish for their repentance instead of wishing for their immediate judgement by God. Its working so far.
    @Mo, i have read much about orthodoxy on the OCA.com or .org(cant remember which one) i am happy where i am but very entrigued by orthodoxy.

  37. Don’t know whether you’re familiar with the website No Longer Quivering or not but there are a lot of interesting posts over there by people who have come out of various patriarchal/quiverfull groups. Some have remained Christian while others, like the lady who started the blog, have had bad enough experiences with fundagelicalism that they want nothing more to do with it or christianity. Anyway, give it a look (if you haven’t long since) and see what you think. Vyckie Garrison and some of the ladies they have also started a organization hoping to help women in abusive patriarchal relationships with a ton of kids find a way out. It’s called the Take Heart Project. Here’s the addresses . . . .
    http://nolongerquivering.com/ and http://www.takeheartproject.org/
    Thanks for this site and all the best,
    John

  38. @Sarah: great stuff! LOVE the sayings of the desert fathers! and about the gender thing: we wanted to name our daughter after St. John of san francisco, so we came up with Johanna (which is also from a bob dylan song, with whom i am obsessed, so it worked well for everybody). can’t think of a female form of Moses though (Mosanna?). hard to go wrong with St. Elisabeth 🙂

    @Morgan: ha! “poped”. LOVE it! you don’t want to know what i thought it said when i first read it 😀

    @Don: right on! my twins are 4 years old. please tell me it gets easier. feel free to lie. after having twins, though, one baby is remarkably easy to care for.

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