You know you can’t win an argument (which exists only in your head, since I don’t recall debating with you), by invoking straw man. It’s like Atheists invoking some kind of philosophy like “Ocam’s Razor” or “No True Scotsman”. It’s like claiming those things automatically win for you. But it makes no sense here Sean.
I said you follow Lyman – you do. You have posted links to him and enjoy his preaching
I said you are a street preacher – you are.
I said you believe one must do in order to be (be blessed, be assured etc) – you do believe that – in order to be accepted by God, you believe you must do good works, and abstain from bad works. It is all over your site and in your videos.
I said your facebook page is full of Paul Washer legalistic rants and yourself – it is (also, Hyperbole is a staple of the English language – maybe not every second video, but it’s all over your page).
I said that the Bible says “flee from fornication” but I also addressed the context – it IS written to saved folks who were either committing or tempted to commit that sin.
Now, where is the strawman? I didn’t set up a set of things I think you believe and tear them down. I just stated the facts.
Then you said I have been spreading false information on other websites. About what Sean? You? God? what? What other websites. Nearly every post I have seen of yours on other forums is this kind of hit and run tactic. You accuse, provide no evidence, and run out the door.
Sean, you don’t even know if you are saved! So what Good has all your religion done you?
Here is one website I found off the top of my head in the comments.
Also remember some at baptist1611, a brother showed you started a thread about me that contained false accusations, I remember reading it, but at the conclusion the moderators said they were going to delete it because it wasn’t edifying or something of that sort. From what I remember this was a Ruckmanite message board; I hope you are no longer a fan of that heretic. (Peter Ruckman)
This is the largest straw man here:
“I said you believe one must do in order to be (be blessed, be assured etc) â€“ you do believe that â€“ in order to be accepted by God, you believe you must do good works, and abstain from bad works. It is all over your site and in your videos.”
One must repent and believe the gospel, which God grants both. God is the One who saves. When God saves someone their life will be changed. We are accepted in the Beloved.
The reverse straw man towards you would be saying something like you believe that Christians can sin as much as they want, to whatever degree they wish and don’t have to make their calling and election sure because they accepted Jesus in their heart.
Actually you said I model my own street preaching after James Lyman, which I don’t. Model it after the Scriptures.
I post content I deem profitable from different preachers, such as Paul Washer, Tim Conway, Leonard Ravenhill, Rolfe Barnard and posts about many varying subjects. None of them are legalistic; many do teach on true and false conversion and often so, because people repeating some formulated prayer without experiencing the new birth is quite common.
Regarding the fornication quotes; the one you are referring to the most comes from 1 Cor 6:9-11 BE NOT DECEIVED, the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God; in this list fornicators is included, which finishes stating that such WERE some of you.
I don’t see the problem with quoting these verses; nor do I see it reason to accuse of teaching a works based system.
Anyways my largest problem is that when you started to email me you acted all nice, but then I would find posts ranting about how awful I am on the internet, just seems a bit strange.
@Sean Payne – I visited your blog
You seem sincere and you are probably religious.
Man, as someone who wasn’t too long ago looking at Christianity from the outside…street preacher types didn’t make me want to be a christian.
They were stumbling blocks and not helpful. I would see them and say to myself “I don’t want whatever they have.”
I never saw God’s love in them or their families. All I ever saw was judgement of anyone slightly different from them, pride in themselves, emphasis on their goodness and not on God’s, and Pharisaical self righteousness.
I don’t know you and you may be different. I hope so. I hope none of us look like that to those needing love and answers.
Sean, that link you posted was from two years ago. I don’t even know about baptist1611 since I left there two years ago as well.
Anything I posted about you two years ago, if it was done in an abusive spirit, I am sorry. However, today, you are still espousing the same fundamental errors that you were two years ago, and you are more hateful and judgmental because of it. My fundy side is gonna come out strong now.
If I appear nicer in email to you than online, it is only because I don’t feel the need to warn others about the dangerous teachings you adhere to, and can actually talk to you as a person. For the record, you are a real nice guy in your email too. I am actually concerned about the questions I have asked you in your emails, and you have not responded to my last one. You really do remind me of myself in my “prime”.
I’m not going to drag up private personal home life discussions I have had with you. So don’t fear that stuff.
But here is the difference Sean – and please correct me if I am wrong. I don’t want to misrepresent you.
From what I understand, both from my past as an IFB and from reading your stuff and facebook page – in order to be blessed by God, you must do good works, and abstain from bad works. In order to know you are saved, you must be consistently living a “good” life of “good works” and consistently not giving in and committing “bad” works (or sins).
And in my freedom from the IFB, I have seen it is the opposite – God bestows grace despite my commitment and most often, even in the lack of it! God loves me regardless of whether I am currently living a morally good life, or whether I have sinned. In fact, it is only this love that brings me to a place of repentance – knowing that God is love, and is not eager to punish me (or chastise me is the proper term – God does not punish believers). Your entire motivation to preach is from fear. You only preach out of fear and your preaching is all about fear. How many times did the chief of sinners preach about hell?
I’m not sure of your theological stance now. You seem to be more “internet calvinist” than anything (it’s what I call calvinists who argue on the internet and are very ungracious about it), but I have a feeling that all your talk about God’s sovereignty is only a smokescreen so that you don’t scare away the other “internet calvinists” that follow your facebook page.
You believe God gives the repentance and the faith to believe (or so you claim) but I don’t know what you actually mean by that, since last time we talked, you claimed you weren’t a calvinist (I don’t really care either way). So does God only give it first, without condition, or does He give it if you seek Him. It doesn’t matter. I’m just confused as to what you believe. You seem to swing back and forwards depending on whether you just heard a “good” washer sermon or a “good” ravenhill one 😛
And here is the question I have been waiting you to answer – How does Sean know that his repentance and faith is from God and not something he has created within himself (I purposely worded it like that because last time I answered, you basically said “if you want to know, read the Bible”). Because if repentance is as you define it, then you have sinned big time, again and again, after salvation. So what now?
Sean, I have no malice toward you. I don’t go searching the internet for threads about you so I can post about you. When I had my old facebook account and you were on it I found it frustrating and had to disable your posts. Whenever I snuck a peak I got pretty upset at what I saw (which was a lot of hate).
If you want to talk through our differences mate, you have my email. I really do think you are a nice guy. I remember a really joyful conversation we had a while back on gmail chat.
P.S. Sorry to everyone for doing this.
Regarding the dunk tank for baptisms and being in the water… I grew up in a fundamentalist church in southwestern Omaha, NE. It was “technically” part of the Christian and Missionary Alliance but was much more an IFB church and would probably have left if the denomination allowed it.
Anyway. They would bring in a metal dunk tank (essentially a water trough for cattle) for baptisms. Women and girls did go in the water first. The pastor stood behind the tank to dry-baptize so he didn’t have to get in. For real.
Not much else you can do with “safe sex” classes but, well you know. But just maybe the kid that gets the gun safety class may want to hunt, home defense, target practice etc. I don’t think he will wildly run off and rob liquor stores.
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