258 thoughts on “Memorandum: Crown College Edition”

  1. According to the first page, your “service is to the Lord” but “in reality, you work for some individual.”

    So “work” is separate from “service?” Or this is just a bunch of poorly written BS?

  2. Just a few simple rules. No pressure! If it’s God’s will, everything will settle anyways.

    Oh just an FYI, what others call burnout, we call backsliding. Good luck out there!

    1. Don’t forget who determines if you were correct that it was God’s will. Hint: it’s not you or the Holy Spirit, it’s either someone on staff or Clarence.

  3. Oh, such a list and ZERO bible verses referenced?
    Not even ONE mention of Jesus Christ?
    From the guru to the cult member to the benefit of the guru and his sub-gurus, Romans 16:17-18; Philippians 3:18-19.

  4. Who needs the persuasiveness of Jesus shown in the Beatitudes (Blessed are they that mourn, thirst, seek weep…) when you have a list of skewered commandments that all begin with a doing verb, such as be, allow, do, never criticize, start, work?

        1. Vodka is like Jaguar – fully capable, but best suited to women*. I prefer my fifths of Four Roses bourbon.

          *Interesting Bond trivia – Ian Fleming considered both vodka and martinis to be feminine, and mentions several times in, e.g. Casino Royale, the female companions ordering vodka martinis, while the men typically drink whiskey and water. By drinking martinis, Bond was essentially demonstrating his security in his masculinity – by ordering what he liked, instead of what was expected of him.

        2. Well, I guess I’m getting in touch with my feminine side.

          I like the results.


        1. That is a very poorly written article. First, it positively states that Flavor Aid was used, and then it says there might have been Kool Aid, too.

  5. Yeah, sadly this is how it’s done there. I’ve heard from past youth pastors there, that at random times the “doc” would tell them he wanted a larger number in the youth service (even if they had a huge Sunday crowd). Work, work, work, work, work, work. I do understand some, not all, of the points should be taken with a grain of salt. A church is a team, and a team needs good workers who support the pastor and not cut down his wife. But, crown does “muzzle the mouth of the ox”, if you will. The workman needs to be paid his hire, and with more work should come more pay. I dont like the mega church feel there, though. I think they should split into 3 churches in the local area and keep starting churches if they want to get the gospel out. I used to be a crownie, but I cant point people there anymore.

  6. ‘Constantly eliminate things that are good for things that are better and best’.

    What does that even mean? And who determines what is ‘good’ and what is ‘better’ and ‘best’? Eliminate Pizza Hut for Poppa John’s?

    Some of it I don’t have a problem with but then we get into the whole ‘protect the pastor and the institution no matter what’. Kool Aid territory.

    1. The phrase “eliminate the good for the better and best” means to put the most important things first and not to spend a lot of time on secondary or tertiary things.

      It does have good applications: playing golf is a good thing; gives you exercise. Spending time with family is better; so if you are abandoning your family for a hobby such a golf, it’s better to give up the hobby to strengthen your family.

      As with many things, it can also be twisted: “Improving the church web site is good, but winning a soul is better – go out soul-winning instead of wasting time on web site improvements.”

      And so on…

    2. I sat under a crownie pastor for a year. He would constantly repeat this phrase in a different way: “For a Christian, it should NOT be about what is good vs. evil, but what is good vs. best.” when it came to preferences and standards. For example, it was used against us men who preferred to wear jeans to church instead of suit and ties. This concept actually put “good” at odds with “best.” In essence, choosing good WAS choosing evil because it was not best.

      1. So, choosing a used Ford Focus would be evil, even though it is good, since the top-of-the-line Mercedes would be best?

        And why wear a Timex when you can wear a Rolex? All you have to is convince the people that the MoG shouldn’t have to choose the good over the best!

        Wow. What leaps of illogic we use to promote our self-interest!

  7. The presumption of #1 – where in the bible does it say that we can or should know what God’s will is? It says we should pray “thy will be done” not “tell me what your will is”. It doesn’t even say “thy will be done BY ME”

    1. The first commandment on this list assumes that we ALWAYS know, or can know, exactly what God’s will is in a particular instance.

      Of course, if in doubt, you can always ask Pastor Clarence Sexton.

    1. I’ve given up searching for God’s will. If He’s so keen on me knowing it, He needs to be clear.
      I’ve just decided to follow: Love God and love your neighbors, and Care for the orphans in their troubles.
      I try the, Keep yourself unsullied from the world, but that’s a daily challenge for me.

    1. I might be more receptive to an entreaty not to criticize the pastor and the pastor’s wife if such a directive came from someone other than the pastor or the pastor’s wife.

  8. Ah the treat them like Children memo where we have to spell out every jot and tittle. Love the line about the gross income as well as sitting at or near the front of the church as if that determines a persons spirituality.

  9. The memo says, “Do not be a respecter of persons.” Yet the memo reiterates over and over not to speak poorly of the pastor, his wife, or children. It also says don’t be friends with people who stand against the pastor. Sounds like being a respecter of persons to me. That is some double talk right there.

      1. This reminds me of when I was a kid and my mom would say, “Explain this NOW!” Then tell me as soon as I opened my mouth, “Do not say a word or it will be ten times worse!” So which was it??? This logic makes my head hurt. Oh wait, I used the L word.

    1. Their commentary on it sounds to me like “Don’t have special friends in the church. Your relationships with all fellow church goers should be identical because otherwise you’re playing favorites. You should shun or show deference to the exact same people everyone else does, and trust that the pastor knows exactly who both categories ought to be.”

  10. Even non- KJVO fundy pastors like to use the KJV translation of “avoiding the appearance of evil,” because the actual correct translation doesn’t influence the sheeple to live in fear of what the pastor may think of them.

    Avoid ALL TYPES of evil, not the appearance of anything that someone else might think is wrong, because in that case, you are living by everyone else’s convictions and not your own.

    I better listen to this music or they might think I’m evil. I better wear a tie, or the pastor may think I am a liberal devil worshipper. I better use the KJV, even though I have no idea what “evil concupiscience” actually means, because if I don’t, then I might make people think I’m evil by their legalistic standards.

  11. This smells of CULT to me.

    Give me the maximum of your money.
    Don’t question me.
    Don’t question my wife, because she is the one woman who can usurp authority over you.
    Tell me I’m great even when I butcher a passage, because I am an ego-maniac who covets your adoration.
    Stay away from people who realize I am a controlling cult leader and may influence you to think for yourself. Do this by not being to close or trusting anyone other than me.
    Make sure I approve of your vacation and that you aren’t sneaking off to a beach or Disney World with your family, even though you can’t afford it with the slave wages you aren’t allowed to complain about.

      1. Following this link and one more I saw this prophetic statement by Darrell in 2010 : “You think Jack Schaap maybe has a few sexual hangups? Just throwing that out there as a possibility.” Good call, Darrell!

  12. This really isn’t too bad… most of the things are pretty much what one would expect. He didn’t say some of the things that where in the 693-page “exalting the pastor” memo from CA.

    Pretty reasonable, all things considered.

      1. Most of these seem reasonable. Yes, Tell the pastor you appreciate his messages seems ego-centric; that should probably be “when you appreciate”. Pastors get criticized a lot, so I don’t mind telling them when they do a good job, or having a reminder to do so.

        But “be on time”, “do your job well”, “have a good spirit”, “take care of your devotional life”, “spend time with your family” all seem to be good traits to cultivate. This didn’t seem to be full of “exalt the pastor” as other internal how-to-behave staff memos that have been published here.

    1. Yeah, it actually is pretty bad, the way it mixes the good with the evil, but I had the same thought about how Treiber would exhibit maximum disdain at such a lightweight effort, compared to his absurdly long employee manual.

    2. It’s hard sometimes, after growing up a fundy and being that way for much of your adult life, to really be able to separate the absurd from the normal. I find that I’m able to do it by imagining something like this happening in my current church.

      And…nope, it’s absurd.

      1. So, what precisely is so absurd?

        Praying for the pastor’s children? Spending time with one’s own family? Being diligent in your work? Praying for one another – sure, that’s absurd.

        Telling the pastor you appreciate his message isn’t absurd unless carried to extremes. Appreciate could just mean thanking him for putting time and effort into the message. I DO appreciate it when a pastor does this.

        Not criticizing the pastor’s wife? Perhaps. I think it is cowardly for a man to run down a woman. If you’re a real man, bring it to her husband.

        1. Well, without going one by one through the list – making the list and sending it to your staff is the most absurd part of the whole thing.

        2. Telling people to tithe is absurd. There is no commandment in the NT for the church to tithe. Unbiblical right there.

          Telling people to “avoid all appearance of evil” is absurd. If I can’t go to the movies, then I can’t go the mall, because there’s a movie theater there and people might think I’m going to see a movie. I also can’t go to the mall because some restaurants there serve booze. I can’t go to the convenience store to get gas because they sell lottery tickets. I can’t go to Walgreen’s because they sell beer.

          Of course, the fact that the verse doesn’t mean that is beside the point.

          Telling people to get their vacation plans approved by the pastor isn’t absurd in your book? Really?

          Telling people where to sit in church isn’t absurd? Really?

          Telling people not to rush out of church? Gee, maybe they are sick or have to go to work because working for Sexton doesn’t pay enough.

          Telling people what they can and can’t talk about in their own homes? Sounds like Hitler or Stalin or Mao. No, we shouldn’t gossip or backstab but geez, the way he says it is just creepy.

          A lot of the things he commands are fine and reasonable. Taking care of your health is good. Trying to get along with others is good. Doing your job well is good. But the way he enumerates them has the creepy tyrant vibe about them. It gives the feeling that he and his wife are above all and are completely perfect.

        3. What is absurd is having to be TOLD all of this nonsense in a written form. That is insanity at its finest!!

        4. Lady Semp – your feedback is appreciated…

          You may not believe that tithing is for the NT, but many pastors and churches do… so, you may not agree with the statement, but it isn’t absurd.

          Avoiding all appearance of evil in in the Bible; it may be over-used and wrongly twisted, but telling people to do what the Bible says isn’t absurd.

          About the vacation plans; having the pastor approve what you do and where you go IS absurd; on the other hand, I have to get the TIME of my vacations approved at my secular job, so that isn’t absurd.

          I’m kind of on the fence about where to sit… for some reason, the back of the church seats seem to be popular; however, if I am late, I am grateful for an open back seat so that I don’t disturb people. I have heard the pastor ask people NOT to fill up the back seats in case some have to go out and come back in. Requesting that his employees sit toward the front is somewhat controlling, but not over much – there is a lot of leeway for freedom there.

          Telling people not to rush away from church doesn’t mean he doesn’t allow exceptions for sickness or family issues. A friend of mine works on staff at a church, and they have a similar rule, but the reason not because of the impression he might give people; it is because the ministry is PEOPLE, and part of his job is to mingle & fellowship. If his son is sick, he’s allowed to rush out, but normally he’s expected to stay around and fellowship with those who stay.

          He only said that they shouldn’t run down the church they attend and the pastor in their own homes. There IS a correct, Biblical approach to judging what was said, as to whether or not it was Biblical. That sends a good message to the household – that the Bible is the final authority, NOT the pastor or what the church teaches.

          But mocking what the pastor wore, or how he speaks, or how is wife dresses, is pretty low-class and should not be done by anyway, especially a staff member.

          I’m aware that we could easily read in a lot of manipulation and control to these; I’m trying to take them just for what they say, and I maintain that they are not totally absurd. Jack Trieber’s 693-staff page manual WAS absurd, and I’m glad that this guy didn’t go down that path.

        5. Guilt Ridden, NOWHERE in the NT is the command given for people to tithe to the church. Just because some pastors believe it doesn’t make it right. This guy is taking verses and twisting them. THAT’s ABSURD and wrong.

          About appearance of evil — again, it’s absurd. THAT’S NOT WHAT THE VERSE MEANS!!!! It’s absurd to even think it means what he says it means. What is evil to you is not necessarily evil to someone else. Some religious people think that women should be in burqas because anything else is evil. Does that mean I have to wear a burqa? Twisting verses to suit your purposes is absurd, especially this verse.

          About vacation — obviously you have to get your leave time approved beforehand. I get that; I’m not stupid. But where in the REAL WORLD do you have to get your boss to sign off on where you go and what you do while you’re not working? Really? THAT’S ABSURD!!!!

          I agree that we shouldn’t be backstabbing people. But most of the stuff in the list is obvious and to tell grownups working in the “ministry” that they need to take care of their health and pray and love each other is absolutely absurd. If you have to tell that to people in your “ministry” should you have hired them at all? You don’t find that absurd? If you hired janitorial staff would you send out memos telling them to clean the toilets every day?

          There is manipulation in this memo. There is condescension in this memo. There is control in this memo. I was in Fundystan a long time and if this memo isn’t evidence of an arrogant, condescending, manipulative man and his minions, I don’t know what is. Just because it’s not nearly 700 pages long doesn’t mean it’s not absurd.

        6. “Guilt Ridden

          August 8, 2014 at 3:56 pm

          Lady Semp – your feedback is appreciated…

          You may not believe that tithing is for the NT, but many pastors and churches do… so, you may not agree with the statement, but it isn’t absurd.”

          Guilt Ridden:

          If the tithe is not NT teaching, then is is absurd to require any NT believer to conform to the teaching.

          Note: The tithe is NOT a NT teaching.


    3. Up vote! We should have our own subredsiall things meaning these guys are completely insane whack jobs? That they run a cult that ruins lives? That the emotionL damage will single handedley fund many college educations for professional psychotherapist kids for a a generation? I hope that’s what you meant. πŸ™‚

    4. I felt burdened down just reading it. There’s no allowing for individuality or Christian liberty or flexibility or the staff member using their own judgment to make decisions.

      Ugh. Sometimes I used to be sad that we were never part of a big church, but I think God was protecting us. I would have hated being subjected to this. I think it’s exhausting having to live under this kind of endless scrutiny. You don’t even get the weekends off.

      1. Maybe I’ve read too many “standards agreements”, but what, specifically, seemed burdensome? Praying for one another?

        Many, if not most of these were things that any employer work ask of his employees… be on time; have a good attitude; get along with others; do your work well.

        1. Well, things like, “don’t bother to ask for a raise. If Jesus doesn’t magically put money into your pocket, you either don’t have enough faith or you don’t deserve it.”

          Yes, that is what he said. “Allow the church to tell you what it will do for you; don’t put demands on them. The Lord has promised to care for our needs as we seek Him first.”

          Oh, and what about, “Tell the pastor that you appreciate his messages.” What? I’m supposed to lie?

          Look, if my wife can’t remember his sermon after the invitation has been sung and the last prayer prayed, it had to be pretty crappy. Sure, I might have remembered it because he totally massacred a passage out of its context or made some inane non-sequitur. Or possibly because he spent nearly an hour picking apart one verse in an attempt to get a full sermon out of it (the snoozers at least got some rest in these!).

          No, if I do not appreciate his sermons, I shouldn’t have to tell him I do.

          Or how about, “Never befriend people who have taken a position against the pastor. Pray for them.” What if the pastor is wrong?

          The ministry isn’t supposed to be centered around a man! The MoG is already inclined to think more highly of himself than he ought to think. Those who disagree with the pastor should have their viewpoints listened to and considered. They may well be very good people. In any case, it is not wise to stick up for a man just because of his position.

          Or how about “Offer your suggestion of improvement only to the person who can make a difference”? AKA, “Keep your mouth shut.” Ideas for improvement need to be thought through, considered by several people. It won’t turn into complaining or a gripe fest if the pastor is willing to hear it and encourage discussion. This rule is meant to subvert change, not encourage positive change.

          We really don’t need more lists of rules. Some of these rules hardly need stated and are good and kind. Others are there to keep power and money in the hands of the MoG (“Tithe from your gross income.” Some places want to check!).

        2. Call me crazy, but telling people not to be friends with people that disagree with him is absurd and controlling. What if he is wrong and someone calls him out on it biblically? Telling people to have close friends, but not too close (don’t overdo it) is absurd as well.

    5. Reasonable? who gets to define what God’s will is? who defines what is the appearance of evil?
      While I appreciate those who thank me for my sermon, what I really am looking for is the person who shares with me how the message has been used in their life specifically and then also is willing to tell me places I could improve. Appreciate the leader and don’t criticize his family–no people should not be overly judgmental about the pastor and family–but it would be helpful to be able to voice disagreement or helpful critiques. There really is nothing reasonable about this.

  13. Two things greatly disturb me: constantly seeking God’s will and asking people to lie by not saying anything or having an opinion.
    I am all for God’s will, but fundamentalists often abuse this because nothing you want can ever be God’s will. It makes people fearful of making a decision in case it is “not God’s plan.”
    Also, they tell their employees to tell the pastor that they like his messages? They are asking people to be deceitful for what? So this tiny community that only looks inward can be peaceful and perfect? So much bondage for such trivial things. This has inspired me to make my life count today for the things that truly matter!

    1. Probably so that anyone who disagrees feels like they are the only one. So long as everyone is visibly thanking the pastor for even the worst sermons, no one has a chance to know that anyone else thought it was bad and everyone has a whole church of peer pressure to fight in order to simply not praise that sermon, much less express how bad they thought it was.

      1. I agree. Also, since people are forbidden from sharing any concerns/criticism with anyone else, they are isolated. Heaven forbid these thought crimes circulate within the congregation. Best everyone keep their thoughts to themselves. ;-/

        These MOGs probably wish the internet was never created. Now their sermons and policies are publicly discussed and there is nothing they can do to stop it.

  14. Know what is expected of you, and go beyond the expectations.

    So, the expectation is REALLY that you go beyond the expectations… meaning that the expectations aren’t really the expectations at all… or something like that, eh?

    1. It just means one will have to devote more and more time, money, resources, etc. to the church and pastor.
      Gotta invent that time-stretching device to do a week’s worth of work and evermore more work in a day, gotta invent that brain-washing device to make oneself and others obey the gur… eh past… eh God totally.

    2. Good point; one can never satisfy this requirement to “always” do more than expected. They even tried this at my secular work for a few years. We had required things to do, and then optional “good employee” extras we could strive for.

  15. Ha! I love how “tell your pastor you appreciate his messages” is at the top of the list while “read your Bible” is at the bottom of the list.

    What a sorry little man who needs to put it on a memo to his staff to inflate his ego after every sermon.

    1. I think I remember Jesus telling his disciples that they always needed to express their appreciation for his excellent messages.

      That sort of a demand is a characteristic of servant leadership.


        1. Yep, your former fundy CEO and I were close back at the old fortress of faith. (My tongue is also in cheek:))

  16. Had good friends on staff there years ago. Sexton almost destroyed their marriages and any hope of future ministry. They ran and never looked back. Serving the Lord faithfully today!

    1. That is an accurate assessment, Ben Padraic!

      Perhaps I would add, “…and don’t you even think about tithing anything below your gross income…peon!”

      After all, this is what makes the machine run.


  17. I am not sure how helpful a list like this is since most of these are pretty subjective. Who gets to define what the will of God is? I have found the will of God for my life seems to be in direct conflict with my former church leaders who are more fundamentalist.
    And the “do not criticize” the pastor’s wife or the reminder to thank the pastor for his message sounds sweet and caring for the church leaders but it is so dangerous. Who wants to be known as the one who is being mean and critical to the pastor and their wife? And so you keep any challenges at a distance, demonize those who would challenge. It would be so much better and healthier to teach people how to constructively criticize. But in many of the fundy churches the only one who can criticize is the MoG. Only he can tell people where they need to improve. Sad.

    1. Dear Leanne Zech:

      I’m not sure what God’s will is, but I’m VERY clear on what God’s will isn’t when I see it …

      Christian Socialist

      PS: Playing devil’s advocate here. Comes easily. And naturally.

      1. indeed. I have found those friends who are fundamentalists are quite clear on what God’s will isn’t. Although I find they are quite sure what God’s will for me is and isn’t–despite the fact they have often asked for prayers for themselves to find God’s will for them.

        1. God’s will is actually quite clear.

          Love God. Love each other. Do justly. Love mercy. Walk humbly with God. Be kind. Forgive. Humble yourself. Stuff like that; and it might be noted, stuff for which the Fundies are NOT famous.

          Yes, God’s will is clear. It’s just that the Fundies insist that he is clear in the areas where he really ISN’T:

          1. Where to go to school or church. God is silent, but the Fundies sure aren’t.
          2. Whom to marry. God has precious little to say, limiting his remarks to the principle of “unequally yoked,” but otherwise, leaving the choice up to us. But the Fundies luuuurve to talk about THAT ONE SPECIAL SOMEONE and if you don’t find that one, you have screwed up the entire universe for all of eternity.
          3. What job to take. Again, God is silent, but the Fundies are noisy.

          I’ll go with The Quiet Man, thanks.

        2. Dear MSK:


          Love God above all, and others as yourself.

          Thank you.

          Christian Socialist

  18. I’ve found more that they didn’t put on the list-
    None of these rules apply to leadership.
    If you break these rules we WILL assign you to intensive remedial training in our isolation shed. We may also take your children.
    When in doubt ask the dear leader.
    Always wipe your ass with Charmin brand toilet paper. The other brands are evil.

  19. “Tithe from your gross income,”

    So… if you own a small business and you have a profit margin of 9% (which is less than the 10% minimum), what does that situation call for?

    1. Not the business’ gross income, my gross income.

      When my business brings in a 9% profit margin, to use the example, and it’s small enough that there is just me, my gross income is that 9%, so I give 0.9 % of the business gross. That’s how we were taught. You’ll go bankrupt if you don’t get to take your expenses in running the business into account.

    1. They could have summed that up in one statement. Read your Bible. Because what you need to do is in there. NOT all these MAN MADE written rules the boast the preacher. I am not sure, but I can’t recall a list like that Jesus wrote to uplift Himself like this.

    1. Neither as being Lords over Gods heritage. These IFB (I am one) potentates forget this. Plus they misuse their authority. Placing themselves as the Holy Spirit. Our current IFB pastor is nor from the likes of these demagogues. He just stated from the pulpit “I quit being the Holy Spirit for people a long time ago.” Where did he attend college? Nowhere he was trained BT his pastor in the local church in which he was saved. And BTW because he is not a tyrant the people love to follow him because we realize we are on his team to propagate the gospel in our area. My pastor is one of those rare birds who does not need any college stamp of approval and it is refreshing.

  20. “Do not speak freely, especially in the privacy of your own home. Your own home is not private. Anything you say about Dear Leader can and will be used against you.”

    1. That one jumped out at me! You have to maintain the facade even with your spouse: “The church is wonderful! Our ministry is great! Our pastor can do no wrong!”

      1. “The High Priest is wonderful! His sons are so helpful in removing the better part of the meat we sacrificed. And so affectionate towards our daughters! Speak not against the Lord’s anointed.”

  21. Whatever happened to”Speak the truth in love “? If my pastors, whom I love and trust, screw up their doctrine, I’ll talk to them about it! If my boss (private Christian school, not Fundy) makes a bad call, I’m not ignoring it. Otherwise how is that being a faithful coworker in the ministry?

  22. I do appreciate the comment about not critizising the children. Kids have it hard enough when they’re under a microscope, they don’t need to be belittled and harassed by “well-intentioned” church members.

    1. Yep. The only thing I’ve ever said was directly to their mom about their speech difficulties. I’m a teacher, and was teaching their class at the time. I’m also an MK and hated being examined everywhere we went.

    2. It’s not as if pastor kids are celebrities! Or royalty. I really feel for the poor innocent brainwashed robot kids at my last church. And I mean that. They are truly little minions for the pastor and his wife- reporting any infraction by congregation members! If one of the Sunday school teachers said that the bible wine was alcoholic wine and not grape juice? They Tattled and that Sunday school teacher was removed. If one of the kids was at the store and saw you walking out of the liquor store? Tattled. If they saw you in a car with a stranger of the opposite sex (regardless if it was a family member they hadn’t met yet) Tattled. Oh yes, those poor kids. I’m praying that they can have a normal childhood not what their parents are imposing on them.

  23. I’m going to submit a slightly different take on this, because I have seen similar in corporate settings. This is what, in formal study of leadership and group dynamics psychology (as well as poly-sci), is what is known as “legislated culture”. The impetus behind this circular is the desire to have a certain kind of culture. Unfortunately, the general consensus among theoreticians is that legislated culture backfires. The reason is that genuine culture is the result of relationships, not rules. For example, a business that has “Work Safe” printed out in numerous places isn’t safe just because of the written safety code. It takes people treating each other safely. Which is why the golden rule of leadership is “show, don’t tell.” Unfortunately, sending out (lengthy) missives like this one also comes across as arrogant or cowardly. I say unfortunately, because often it is the result of someone in leadership being introverted and/or not being knowledgable in leadership.

    1. Amen!!!

      Y’all may wonder why a Catholic is so fascinated by this stuff. Well, it’s partly because it resonates with what I’ve experienced in a toxic corporate culture over the past 15 years. Let’s just say that Dilbert is more fact than fiction!

    2. “…genuine culture is the result of relationships, not rules”

      And Christianity is as well. You have summed up everything wrong with Fundamentalism.

      1. Many of us have been beating THIS drum for years. The biggest danger is that we become just as insistent that Fundies who see the error, don’t feel just as compelled to do things OUR way as we always felt to do things THEIR way when we were still among them.

        It’s a hard thing, to give grace and let people do as they wish, when I have such antipathy for the thing they wish to do. But if what they wish to do isn’t clearly WRONG, I must bite my tongue.

        1. I am going to respectfully disagree. I don’t think that we demand that people who see what is wrong with fundamentalism do things “our way.”

          What is “our way” anyway? In this group we have a divergent community, from still-committable fundies to still-committed Christians of many traditions to agnostics to atheists. No one insists on the other that they become an atheist, follow any particular set of rules, etc.

          But we do continue to point out fundamentalist tendencies. A person leaving the fundamentalism of one place to go to the fundamentalism of another is still a fundy.

          And no, we should not keep our mouths shut. That is a fundy trap. If we are silent, evil is not exposed.

        2. rtgmath,

          I was speaking of what I have seen, and of what I have found myself doing, and what others have called me (and others) out for doing. Not any ONE thing in particular. It’s just that, when you grow up in a system that is RIGHT all the time, it gets to be a habit; one that is hard to shake, even after leaving The System years ago. I wasn’t calling down anyone in particular, except maybe myself. And I wasn’t advocating SILENCE. Certainly not. Plenty of OTHER people might be intense advocates for MY silence, but…

          No, I meant to throw out a general reminder to be gracious. Probably more for myself than for anyone else.

  24. Summary:
    Working at Crown College, obeying pastor, speaking highly of pastor’s family, living in poverty while working 365 to promote Crown, wearing a fake smile when you can’t stomach people at Crown, and never complaining about being worn out from 24/7 ministry at Crown is our will for your life.

    Crown is no different than BJU. I remember lectures from admin, profs, and dorm sups that dictated their will for students.

  25. Dear Clarence Sexton:

    LAW, LAW, LAW!

    Have you any grace at all around here?

    Christian Socialist

    PS: Isolating people who question pastor’s thinking? How original.

    1. Christian Socialist:


      No grace here whatsoever. The pastor is exhalted above measure and without question. This is purely man-worship, just like the Roman pagans of old.

      I honestly wonder what Jesus Christ would say in response to this heap of stinking garbage…no wait…He has already responded throughout Scripture! But, we cling to our traditions and ignore His words and ways. Yep, that’s what we do.

      I enjoy your input, C.S., I really do.


    2. I am reading Les Miserables, a book I have been working on for several summers now, and one which has taught me more about obscure French history than I ever wanted to know.
      I wish anyone who is still trapped in legalism would read this! Jean Valjean is saved by grace demonstrated to him by a tenderhearted priest he robbed. Valjean, stunned by grace, goes on to live a life of compassion toward others. In the meantime Inspector Javert spends his life hunting down Valjean. Javert, so aware of his own shortcomings, holds himself and others to an impossible standard of perfection. One is full of love; the other of hatred. One has joy; the other fear.

      1. Dear ieceyKaye:

        Victor Hugo’s depiction of that priest ought to be required reading for everyone on the planet ever to consider the office of overseer of God’s flock.

        Thank-you, ieceyKaye, for that every-timely reminder of the power of a cruciform life. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Blessings!

        Christian Socialist

        1. I have always considered Les Miserables a story of multiple redemptions, and the tragedy of refusing to see mercy (Javert). Many other themes thread their way through such as forgiveness, self-sacrifice, and callous greed (the Thernardiers), but sweet redemption is the golden wash over the many beautiful brushstrokes.

      2. I have never read Les Mis, but I saw the recent musical film of it based on the famous stage production. Great story and some wonderfulusoc but how close is of to the book. I want to read the book. I really screwed up recently and I need some forgiveness myself.

        1. I haven’t seen the movie, but I assume it cuts out a lot of the material in the book, since Hugo’s book is quite long (1488 pages in one paperback edition), and the movie is 158 minutes long (per IMDb)– long for an American movie, but not long enough to get all of the novel in.

        2. The movie gives the Cliff notes of the book. It leaves out many of the sub-plots. In the first section, for instance, we see into the heart of the priest who forgives Valjean. Later we see the mental struggle Valjean goes through over whether to lift the cart off the carter, knowing the feat could identify him. And so on…
          As for forgiveness, it’s free for the asking.

        3. Dear Paul Best:

          Receiving grace is like breathing. We breathe out our confession so that we may inhale the refreshing, forgiving grace of our God.

          Christian Socialist

  26. Friends, listen to me…LISTEN!

    This is why most of us have left the appearance-driven and rules-emphasizing religious system known as AMERICAN FUNDAMENTALISM. It hurts to read this crap. Though some truth is sprinkled here and there, most of this garbage is man-centered and manipulative.

    I shall now move on to something else more productive.

    Good grief these people make me sick to my stomach.

    With the sincere love and devotion,


        1. Catholic Gate-Crasher, as a Bostonian I am deeply offended by your traitorious ways. I have to separate from you. πŸ˜‰

        2. Do you mash the foot-feed when driving a motor vehicle?
          That’s what people in west Texas do.

        3. Reminds me of “Driving Miss Daisy”: Hoke tells Daisy, when she’s stuck in an elevator, to “try mashing down on that button.”

      1. Up Yo**s — no scratch that. Not to be said out loud, and certainly not the connotation I want to convey. I would up your comment, if there were an up button provided.. I like the idea. (That still sounds rather awful, though)

        On the other hand, in certain pun-ishingly afflicted minds like mine, your idea lends itself to some, uh, interesting ideas.

        1. Dear SFL Reader:

          That link didn`t work for me. No idea what happened as I copied it directly from tinyurl.

          I link I expected to appear was the `buy Darrell a cup of coffee` feature from the left sidebar.

          Sorry for the bum steer. Like that`s never happened to us …

          Christian Socialist

  27. I have a question:
    One of the odd phrases I heard back in my young IFB days was referring to an IFB preacher as ” God’s anointed”. It didn’t click with me back then as I was so new to all the Fundy lingo. Being in my 7th decade now and looking back I can see why they bestowed that position on their MOG’s or their MOG’s bestowed it to themselves. You don’t disobey God’s anointed, right? As I now understand my Bible, King David was anointed King of Israel but that was OT Israel.
    As I grew older and hopefully wiser and smarter after suffering terrible abuse from several IFB MOG’s and began to ask questions to some of my fellow IFB automatons and being subsequently reprimanded for speaking against “God’s anointed”. ……Well anyhow has anyone other than myself on StuffFundiesLike heard this position being bestowed on their’s or someone else’s MOG?

    1. Dear F.F.M., I for one have heard this “God’s anointed” title bestowed upon the IFB MoG. I’ve also heard it in the Assemblies of God church that I attended for a few years. It’s catchy.

      Touching God’s anointed (from my recollection of the story) involved David’s refusal to harm Saul when the opportunity presented itself.

      Of course, if David and Jonathan were in more than a bro-mance, David may have been hesitant to harm Jonathan’s father.

    2. yes, I have. And you have defined the reason for calling oneself or the MoG “God’s anointed.” It places the MoG above any challenge or dispute. I have heard it about local pastors and also about the tv evangelists like Benny Hinn.
      As a pastor myself, I would never allow anyone to call me “God’s anointed.” All of God’s people are anointed. While the pastoral role is set a part for a specific task in the body of Christ, each person is a minister and has the Holy Spirit therefore, any anointing on me is not greater or more powerful than for any other Christian. We need to realize we all come to the Table on equal ground.

    3. “Touching the Lord’s Anointed,” as applied by Indy Fundyism, is a complete twisting of the biblical principle. God used it ONE time, to describe his protection of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob when they were wandering tribesmen, lacking a permanent home (Psalm 105:8-15). David also applied it to the doomed kingship of Saul, knowing he was just as anointed as Saul was.

      Any other application is presumptuous and bumptious. Impertinent. Arrogant.

      1. Interesting that when David said he would not touch the Lord’s anointed, he made no mention of his own anointing. At that point in time, David showed a humility that seems to be lacking in other leaders today.

        1. You know, I’ve always wondered why they make this reference to ‘touch not the Lord’s anointed’. It refers to a king, not a rabbi or prophet. Do IFB pastors liken themselves to Saul?

    4. In the two churches I was in where the pastors made a big deal about being “God’s anointed”, they both ended up being involved in sexual immorality. I flee a church whenever I hear that phrase applied to the pastor, especially when the pastor applies it to himself.

  28. Notice about every other tip has something to do with the pastor. Shouldn’t the title be “as we serve the pastor together”? Aww crap I wasn’t supposed to complain about him. I’ll go talk with my wife …

    1. That whole document sounds condescending and patronizing. The ideas in it aren’t too bad, but this is stuff that should be a given in a quality staff, not spelled out to them like this as if talking to children.

  29. SMH!!! I have to go puke now!

    They all got to me, but help me Lord, this one:
    “Plan your vacation or time away. Always be sure it meets the approval to whom the person you answer.”

    SERIOUSLY???!!! I don’t know what is worse getting the “approval” or that you have a “person” you answer to. WOW!! Wouldn’t God be the one we answer to?

    These are such sickening thoughts but to put it on paper is beyond my realm of comprehension.

  30. “Do not be a respector of persons” by loving and respecting your pastor and his family just because he’s the pastor regardless of whether or not they deserve your love and respect or whether they’re actually obeying the bible or not.

    Because narcissism.

  31. I think there’s always a huge emphasis on finding “God’s Will” so that they can keep church members. At FBC it was anathema to leave for any reason; even if you were going to go work in another ministry the leadership tried to talk you out of leaving. As long as there are IFB pastors there will be someone who can determine what “Gods will” is for you

    1. I was talking to a friend about “God’s will” today. I have decided there isn’t another human alive that should be able to tell my family and me what God’s will is. Sadly, the preacher thinks it is HIS way and ONLY his! It amazes me that we aren’t supposed to seek God, but the preacher. UGH!
      They have complicated what THEY think His will is. To me, it isn’t complicated at all.

  32. Who made you?
    Pastor made me.

    What else did Pastor make?
    Pastor made all things.

    Why did Pastor make you and all things?
    Pastor made me and all things for his own glory.

    …oops. Wrong list.

    1. If you have a remote starter you have too much money. A remote starter is good, but it is better to spend the money on such a luxury on MOG stuff.

        1. Or you could spend the money you save by not buying a remote start and buy Armor All. Gotta keep those tires shiny.

        2. See this is how I know I am more holy than you. My car is 16 years old, so old we have crank windows and a tape deck.

        3. Rust is good too. It should be at least 20 years old and make strange noises going down the road. But hey it’s paid for..more money freed up for the offering plate.

        4. Dunno about that- if it’s that old, it’s likely to need more money in maintenance! I know my 82 diesel Volvo is beginning to really suck it up in costs. (Being old enough that we can’t get parts is a problem…)

        5. No chance for rust over here. I’m in a desert, and we don’t salt our roads in winter. Guess I’ll have to be resigned to being a little less holy.

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