Spiritual Probation

What crime prompted these epistles? What shortcoming was so deserving of the attention of the administraton? The recipient of these letters reports:

“I was a good little freshmen (only 11 demerits), but they found out that I liked CCM because they heard me discussing it with some other students. Even though I didn’t listen to CCM while school was in session, they felt my attitude and views were grounds for spiritual probation.”

Egads. I think probation was lenient given the circumstances.

331 thoughts on “Spiritual Probation”

  1. So inspiring and instructional – it reminds me of the epistles, where Fruit Examiner Paul scolds the Corinthian Church about their extension participation

  2. “I think probation was lenient given the circumstances.”

    Especially when you consider that even a group as tame as Casting Crowns is music from hell. You, my friend, have been rescued from a very deep dark pit.


  3. I think they’ve found a way to turn religion into bureaucracy–“Here’s some paperwork. Fill it out so we can evaluate what your ‘friendly’ neighborhood government can do to help you.”

  4. “We’re concerned about leadership quality being misspent.”

    Yeah, right. BJU pretty much only gives leadership positions to kids whose parents have gone there, or kids who had a fundy upbringing and were part of the system in some way (Inquisition Squad, anyone?) In any case, I speak from personal experience: I was told that sophomores couldn’t be APCs, but that didn’t stop me from having a slew of sophomore APCs and junior PCs, who of course had been APC the year before. They make whoever’s most complaint leaders – and sucks be to the rest.

    Note: This does NOT mean that I wish I’d been a leader more. I was an APC for exactly one semester, my last there – and it was a disaster. To the girls who were in my room: I was a pretentious jerk, and I humbly apologize.

      1. I know. Getting BJU to respond isn’t so much about seeing them own their behaviour and apologise, because that doesn’t happen. But every time they do they just look stupider to people outside. With the GRACE report coming next month, I’m really, really hoping that there is a lot of publicity centered on BJU right now.

  5. “Spiritual Probation” places the Probator in a superior position and the Probatee in a submissive position. By force.

    It is a kind of spiritual or psychic violence. It is intimidation.

    BJU as an institution should not automatically assume it is qualified to judge the spiritual state of anyone. Even Paul the Apostle would not say He was “Right With the Lord,” but passed off the responsibility for Judgment to the Lord. He advocated Self-Judgment, but not Other-Judgment.

    Frankly, as I am now, seeing the Faults of Fundamentalism and not accepting their Self-Superiority and Self-Righteousness, they would judge me a rebel and throw me “out of the camp.” I happened to graduate from BJU before I had woken up sufficiently to really think for myself. Today, I wouldn’t have a prayer.

    The GRACE report should put BJU on “Spiritual Probation.” Frankly, churches that actually want to follow Christ instead of IFBism should alert BJU that it is on spiritual probation. Their heart is not right with God.

    1. Please, someone… when the GRACE report comes out, make a letter very similar to this one. We can all print it out and then en masse mail them to BUY.

  6. This further reinforces my opinion that young people ought to be fully warned when considering a Christian college…fundy or otherwise. They ought to know that they will be signing their privacy and rights away when they “promise” to abide by all rules. All the admin has to do is throw a “Jesus” or “testimony” or “separation” into a conversation and they think it puts them on a higher spiritual plane.

    I wish I had been more resistant to the wrongs that were done while I was at Fundy U. Of course, back then I just wanted to graduate.

      1. I didn’t go to BJU. My family and home church considered them to be compromising and neo-evangelical…yeah…you read it right.

        I ended up at Ambassador Baptist college in Lattimore, NC. Just a scaled-down version of BJU though, considering the founder graduated from their academy and college.

        My first year, I was excited and and wanted to conquer a mission field for KJV….um…I mean Christ. By my last year, I was rather disgusted with the hypocrisy and unanswered questions of the IFBs and later with Christianity itself.

        1. My parents love ABC. They probably regret that I didn’t go there or to a school like that since I am no longer KJVO or hymns-only.

        2. “I didn’t go to BJU. My family and home church considered them to be compromising and neo-evangelical…yeah…you read it right. ”
          Same here. Also went to Ambassador for that reason. How spiritual, lol.

        1. Jim Berg was young then. He had some position in the administration, don’t recall the title. One time it seems that he broke his nose. It was up Dr. Blob’s butt when Dr. Blob took a hard right.

        2. Wow – another trip down Memory Lane. The fear of being put on ‘Spiritual Pro’; Dr. William E. Liverman, Dean of Men (during my tenure at ‘The Bob’ in the late 70’s also). I spent three of my four years in JY Smith dorm and remember that almost everyone there did (or attempted) impressions of Dr. Marvin Lewis, Director of Religious Activities (?) & his legendary Sunday service offeratory & benediction prayers.

          A perhaps apocryphal story goes that shortly before an event in Rodaheaver Auditorium Dr. Lewis asked a student if the seat beside him was saved? The young man responded, “No sir, but it’s under deep conviction!” I do not know if he was placed on spiritual probation or not…

        3. @Prof Dan: I heard that story as well about Dr. Lewis. I thought his title was “Campus Pastor”. Did you hear the story about his famous prayer:

          “Lord, forgive us for our falling shorts.”

        4. Prof Dan, you might message me on the forum. We may well have known each other back then, when Gerald Ford was president, and Ronald Reagan was running. Remember when Reagan spoke at BJU?

        5. My brother-in-law came from a Northern Ireland Brethren Background. He was in a prayer meeting once when a very pious gentleman started praying “We humbly pray for our dear Brother Robert, who is in hospital with err… um…. that disease where you forget things…….

        6. That might help explain your wild, liberal attitude. You were exposed to the failures of the 60’s in your youth and to the influence of those turbulent times that still affected the 70’s.

        7. Dr. Lewis asked a student if the seat beside him was saved? The young man responded, “No sir, but it’s under deep conviction!”


          Ditto for Paul Best’s anecdote. Youse guys crack me up. 🙂

        8. Yes BJg, I did hear all about the infamous ‘falling shorts’ prayer. I’d actually just migrated up the road to Clemson U, however, when RR visited & spoke though.

          I’ll message you – soon as I figure it out…

        9. That story is true. And my btother-in-law almost injured himself in his attempts not to laugh. I suspect he was not the only one – there were probably others who had attained the required level of holiness. A heretic like me would not have cared…
          Another true story (have shared it before) A good friend of the family who was a devout Catholic got into a conversation about what Protestant s and Catholics believe. One of her statements was that not all Catholics believe the Pope is inflammable. She also said that Catholics of her generation did not believe in divorce but a marriage could be annihilated but only if it hadn’t been consumed. I suppose she meant it hadn’t been constipated.

        10. Big OOOPS! I have just realisef that I have posted that last story on this thread already. Why do I keep repeating myself? But I love that sort of stuff. I suppose christians have to learn to laugh at themselves. If they don’t someone else will do it for them. But why do I keep repeating myself? …..

        11. Also., bless you, George… I should have said my brother in law had NOT attained the level of holiness that would make it impossible to find anything in a prayer meeting funny…..

      1. Dr. Lewis, another winner. Saturday morning chapel – the sermon on S. E. X. “I can’t even speak the word.” He actually spelled the word.

        1. None of them can say “sex” or refer to genitals by their proper terminology.

          Mrs. Beneth Peters Jones referred to sex as the “one-flesh relationship,” and OfJimBerg called it “a dim picture of unity with Christ.” I wish I were kidding.

          Miss White (Gaston dorm sup) referred to men’s genitals as “peanuts.” For real.

          And Mr. Miller famously told guys they couldn’t call each other wussies (he pronounced it “woosies”), because it sounded too much like “ladies’ Gentile parts.”

        2. Also., bless you, George… I should have said my brother in law had NOT attained the level of holiness that would make it impossible to find anything in a prayer meeting funny…..

        3. Arrrgh George will you leave me alone !! I already posted that! Somewhere else!! Please take a long holiday George. I might even pay for it.

  7. I personally knew Jon and his brother. I can’t help but think he’s merely marching lock step with the adminstration for the sake of providing for his family.

    On the other hand, maybe he has drank the KoolAid and really believes in what he is doing. I don’t know. I suppose when you’ve lived your entire adult life on the campus of Bob Jones University your perspective can be somewhat narrow.

    Still, Jon was always personable and gracious to me.


    1. “Fruit Inspector”

      I can’t really explain this one. If I should run into Jon sometime in the future I will have to ask him about his credentials as a fruit inspector.

        1. You can thank the radical leftist, Agenda 21 types for creating the man-made drought in California which is sure to rise the price of fruit.

        2. stacy – Can you please explain what Agenda 21 is. I do not know and don’t have the time right now to Google. This is a sincere request. Thanks.

          Darrell – You can delete my comment that is awaiting moderation. I entered wrong e-mail on a different computer.

        3. The sheer inanity and non-sequitur-i-ness of Stacy’s response lead me to suspect that she is the greatest Poe in the history of Internet Poedom.

        4. No. It isn’t a threat to private property rights.

          Well, unless you think owning a piece of land entitles you to do whatever destruction you would like to do, regardless of the consequences to those around you.

          Even then, it is no threat. It has not been ratified here in the US. Even in other countries where it is being implemented it is not hindering people from land ownership and enjoying the use of their land.

          Only here, in the US, where anything associated with the United Nations or Conservation or sound environmental stewardship of the earth is it considered a threat.

          I mean, you would likely agree that if a person takes drugs into their own body, hurting no one else, that they should still go to jail. So why do you think poisoning your own land, killing the wildlife, fouling the water that your neighbors drink should be protected activity? What about it makes you feel it to be a threat?

        5. 22 years old, and no one has discovered an actual case of unjust land forfeiture/seizure due to Agenda 21. You’d think such a dire threat would be more effective.

          Glenn Beck followers are terrified of boring & mundane obscure regulations they don’t understand.

  8. I thought “fruit inspectors” — from, I assume, the Biblical passage ye shall know them by their fruit ONLY applied to teachers and leaders.

    Good grief! Give the Holy Spirit time to work on someone.

    Having said that, if we spot someone who seems to be going backward, a kind word of encouragement might help them to continue.

  9. -Organic and authentic, here, and will not be inspected.

    -My heart goes out to those who have received the full BJU treatment. What BS!

    1. Questioner,

      Would you propose that a lot of IFB’s really don’t care about real, natural fruit and instead want to impose some fake standards into the equation? Would you call this GMO fruit?

  10. As much as I dislike CCM, I’d be very reluctant to impose my music preferences on others, or to discipline then because they prefer it. There are many churches out there and one can always find one that is congruent with their own music style.

  11. So what would my collection of Sting, Rolling Stones, and Santana get me? ‘Spiritual Solitary’? I figure my pile of medieval music wouldn’t offend (except maybe the liturgical stuff), but Mick Jagger probably would…

    1. Well Liutgard, I wouldn’t be so sure about that Medieval Music… Didn’t some of it have a ‘definitive beat’?

      Also is it Contemporary Medieval or Classic Medieval?

        1. Don’t be ridiculous, BJg. Everyone knows that eight-track tapes are of the devil. Holy, separated, righteous people use reel-to-reel tapes.

        2. I was a cassette buyer, two of my roommates were 8-track users. I would borrow Tony’s Nova to take my wife out occasionally, and we would listen to his Dr. Hook and the Medicine Show 8-track. This was at a Fundy U in 1981-82. I still like Dr. Hook. And still have the same girlfriend.

  12. So, a student enjoying and approving of music created to glorify Jesus Christ is now “bad fruit”? My only conclusion is that BJU sees only compliance with their social strictures as “good fruit”. I wonder how they will ‘splain that one at the great white throne.

    1. exactly–it has nothing to do with actually being Christ like–its all about whether you have bought into the school brand of religion and support that image to the world. Because God forbid, a perspective student comes to campus and runs into someone who lacks BJU fruit.

    2. They see themselves as the spiritual authority to whom students must be in submission. This way, it doesn’t matter if the rule is extra-Biblical; simply because “the authority said so” means you must obey and to not obey means you are disobeying God.

      The pathetic thing is that this student WAS obeying, but they want control, not only of your behavior, but also your beliefs and attitudes. You can’t DO certain things but you also can’t even SPEAK of them.

      So sad that students are being taught that these kinds of demands are acceptable and biblical.

        1. I did not go to this university, so I can’t speak from personal experience. I’ve known many people who have gone there. But, let’s be intellectually honest: Bob Jones is pretty minor-league when it comes to Big Brother. I couldn’t care one iota about sports, but the NFL is making big time headlines for bowing over backwards and sending anyone in the league to reeducation camp who doesn’t bow to the homosexual lobby.

        2. Compared to the NFL, Bob Jones nothing. The NFL is much more thought-controlled and Big Brother-like than Bob Jones ever has been.

        3. And the NFL has collective bargaining and a players union, which is basically communism! Although to be frank, if the NFL payed me a salary – even the minimum contract of $400K per year – I’d go to any re-education camp they wanted, and even paint my truck in rainbow hues.

    3. So, a student enjoying and approving of music created to glorify Jesus Christ is now “bad fruit”?

      That floored me, too. I’m not a huge CCM fan, but, from the little I’ve heard, it really is praise music, focused on God, not on “me me me.” Since when is glorifying Christ in song a Bad Thing? I don’t get it.

      And the whole idea of Spiritual Probation gives me the willies. It’s like something out of one of Pol Pot’s Self-Criticism and Re-Education Camps.

      1. Well according to PCC, CCM is bad because music itself can be bad.
        “Certain syncopations of rhythm can cause the flesh to sin.”
        Not kidding.

        Funny, I thought I sinned of my own free will, but I guess when I hear music, I have no choice.
        So much for victory over sin and death in Christ.

        I graduated 2013.

      2. Come! Come! Not to be worried! Christianity like Communism! Get you educated into right and only way to think! You self down put so you can learn right up put.

        All about Party Line! Walk it. Talk it. Do it. Tattle on traitor fink. Make them get education next, da?

        1. The depth of knowledge here of the etymology of the names of fruit is impressive. Even that Socialist lady is quite a cunning linguist!

  13. Your stature is like that of the palm, and your breasts like clusters of fruit. I said, “I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit.” May your breasts be like clusters of grapes on the vine, the fragrance of your breath like apples, and your mouth like the best wine. (‭Song of Solomon‬ ‭7‬:‭7-9‬)

    Solomon: the ORIGINAL fruit inspector.

      1. If no erotic literature is allowed on Fundy-U campuses, does that mean they remove SoS from the Old Testament, or just pretend it doesn’t exist?

        1. I’m pretty sure you would get demerits for reading it openly. Probation probably. Maybe even shipped. Especially if you were reading it in the Dating Parlour with your intended.

          Whooo! The idea of that gets me hot and bothered!

          I remember when I was there, and my wedding day was coming two weeks after graduation. During that semester they had me go through a kind of “counseling” and let me read the books they absolutely do not keep on the shelves for students to peruse. Funny, though. Those books were of NO use whatsoever in having sex with my wife after we got married.

          The descriptions were so vague as to be unintelligible. And who wants to think of marital sex as “Holy,” with God participating? The books tried hard to denigrate the physical expression of marital love.

          I learned in my marriage that ignorance is NOT bliss! Unfortunately, that ignorance is promoted as godliness and knowledge is sinful. So my wife resisted learning much of anything for years. It did not make for happy times.

        2. rtgmath, sorry to hear that. I’ve heard similar tales from others, and it always saddens me.

          My mom handed me a copy of LaHaye’s _The Act of Marriage_ and that was my sex ed. Is it any surprise that I didn’t have my first orgasm until after my third child was born… (Part of that was the ex’s fault. 🙁 )

        3. Liutgard, I received The Act of Marriage, too! And didn’t have my first orgasm (during intercourse) until after my 2nd child was born. NOT the Hubster’s fault; I just didn’t know enough about my own body to even communicate what I needed.

          Christians need to stop making sex sound like a duty.

        4. Dr Jezebel, I think it is even more than not knowing- it was partly having had DONTBESELFISH pounded into me repeatedly, until I couldn’t ask for what I wanted/needed. And being taught all of my life that ‘the Flesh’ was bad… how then could I suddenly turn around and become a fully sexual being, just because I said some words and signed a piece of paper?

        5. It’s terribly heard to go from “sex is something you aren’t supposed to talk about, read about, or think about” to “sex is something wonderful to enjoy with your husband.” I’m a strong believer in abstinence outside of marriage, but the way abstinence is taught in many Christian homes and churches ends up glorifying virginity more than marital intercourse and causes strife and unhappiness in marriage.

          I don’t know how to counter that. I’m trying to be more open with my children and less shame-based, but it’s not an easy subject to discuss.

        6. I wish you well on that. I have only managed to be able to discuss sex somewhat obliquely with my number 3 son. My youngest, my daughter, is in no mood to talk about sex with her dad — and she certainly won’t hear about it from her mother!

          That dad is willing to watch films with less than pristine language and may contain side characters that dress less completely than a fundy female at a segregated pool has gotten him labeled a “pervert” by his daughter. My wife is easily offended with real-life language used in intense situations (movies). That crudity is usually the bad guys, not the good guys makes no difference. Even the bad guys are supposed to be squeaky clean. Well, verbally at least!

          At least my wife is more open politically. And she is slowly coming around to allow me my opinions on fundamentalism without taking too much offense. Just so long as I don’t talk about it. She knows her friends support bad things. But they *are* her friends and she will not abide any critique of what they believe.

          And of course, fundies tend to imply that sex should be restrained, “holy,” and above all, not messy. Kisses should be more like one kisses a brother or sister. Just looking at a *real* kiss on a movie causes her and my daughter to turn their heads in disgust. My wife refuses to read the Canticles. Any time I try to talk about anything to do with sex, she quickly finds a reason to leave the room.

          It does make for some tension. I have been married for 31 years.

          I really don’t mean to complain about my wife and family. I love them very much, and love my wife so much it hurts at times. Fundamentalism has, however, damaged critical components of what I perceive is needed for a healthy marriage. It continues to do me damage. I have left fundamentalism. My wife and daughter have not.

          I pray often that our marriage can survive and get better. But I realize that for the marriage to survive I may have to just keep silent about the problems and their sources (something that is difficult for me to do).

        7. Dear Dr. Jezebel, Liutgard and rtgmath:

          Sorry to hear about your experiences. It truly sucks.

          Similar story here. I tried to get the Mrs. to read ‘The Act of Marriage,’ but even that was too much for her.

          My so-called ‘marriage’ was stillborn. What ought to have been a life long commitment stalled in my 20s and stopped in my 30s.

          I tried to have a marital relationship for about 20 years. I then accepted that this wasn’t to be.

          We still live under the same roof, but I’ve not pursued a relationship with her for many decades.

          She is a good person, and we [somehow] managed to sire four very impressive young ladies.

          I believe now that our story wasn’t determined by her fundamentalist background. I suspected for many years that orientation was an issue. Then I discovered http://tinyurl.com/3aeuya .

          If she could cough it up twice a year, that represented an absolutely herculean effort. And recently, she admitted that she did the best that she could. There was some healing in that.

          But we ought to have had that conversation many, many years ago. But her fundamentalist background didn’t help her in that at all.

          Having accepted and lived with this these many years, I’m afraid I have very little sympathy with ministers who can’t keep it in their pants — let alone keep their hands off children. If ever there was a case to be made for mandatory castration, that later point would be it.

          Christian Socialist

        8. FundamentalismWasHellForMe, thank you for your comment. This group has made me realize that I am not alone.

          One of the pernicious aspect of fundamentalism is that its people are isolated. One has trouble making friends outside the group. And if one leaves, the isolation and loneliness is almost overwhelming. Without the skills to get to know people, to see openness in others without being shocked, and to be open with other people … again, without those skills one has trouble meeting others who have similar experiences.

          Darrell, your work here is significant. More than you know.

          I have sometimes wondered if I am too open. I say what I think. I say what I feel. I *do* try to actually think, to reason, to discern right from wrong, truth from error, and to let what I know take precedence over what I feel. But it is still a tricky thing.

          I guess I do it because I know that holding things in secret is much like a festering sore you try to keep hidden and never gets treated. I need to heal. I need to put things out in the open so they can see the light of day.

        9. CS, thankfully, I got better! James and I have a very fulfilling physical relationship, and after 15 years (next month), I still get a thrill when he walks into the room. And yes, there is definitely a ‘holy’ aspect to it. There are times when I am nearly in tears, very conscious of the gift I have been given in my relationship with James.

          (That said, I nearly killed him last weekend. Haven’t been that mad for a long time. But we’re working it out. 🙂 )

        10. Christian Socialist, I think you may have misunderstood that book. I don’t have it in my library, but I’ve heard of it. The book was intended for normal sexual relations. It was not a homosexual guidebook. You’d have to look further down the bookshelf for that tome. Do you feel like your failure at “marriage” sets maybe a bad example for the other gay “marriages” out there that are just starting out?

        11. Luitguard, you’re married – to a man?! I just assumed this whole time because you are such a flaming liberal that you were a lesbian like that Socialist lady. Wow, sometimes this board does surprise me!

        12. Still can’t spell my name right, and lobbing a bald insult to boot. Assuming and calling people gay simply because they differ politically is very offensive.

          Darrell, do we really have to put up with this?

        13. -Thank you, RGT, Jez, PW, LG (and whomever I may have forgotten) for that frank discussion about the hidden, shameful, “sensitive” damage that was done to many of us.

          I always thought that my “problems” were because of the childhood (and adult) sexual abuse, without ever giving credit to the Fundies for effing that part of me up, too with their “It’s dirty, nasty, sinful and shameful until you’re married, then it’s a gift, which is selfish to withhold” sexual philosophy. -They ruin everything they touch.

        14. Thank you all very much for sharing; it is such a blessing to read such honesty. For my part, my wife and I had a superb physical relationship from the get-go (we educated ourselves, and prepared physically), but we found out quickly that we were infertile. I can’t tell you how that changes things – I now realize how insensitive and hurtful it can be when churches emphasize militant fecundity and always ask you, “So when are you going to have kids?” Even worse were the few obnoxious RLTs* who thought it was their business to find out what was “bothering” us. Thankfully, the condition (which was mine) was treatable through (very expensive, elected) surgery, and we have a beautiful daughter and a son on the way. But it was a learning experience.

          *Real Life Troll

        15. [Hey staceymcanderson, if you are a Poe, could you please tone down the anti-gay stuff you’re putting in your reprehensible character’s mouth? It’s a bit upsetting, and could hurt people, which, if you are a Poe, I am sure is not your intent. Thanks :)]

        16. TY Darrell. Stacy’s been over the line from the first time she commented. (Am assuming that means a banning of some sort).

        17. BTW, beautiful sharing from all the normal commenters. Wish everyone the best.

          Shame on stacy for trolling a vulnerable honest thread with truly vile commentary. You’ve got a lot of confession & forgiveness to seek, Poe or not.

        18. Maybe they do what the Jews used to do…. ban anyone under the age of 30 from reading it!

    1. I’m not married, and I’ve never had a sexual relationship – never even kissed. I no longer believe that sex outside of marriage is wrong, and frankly, I’d like to give it a whirl 😛 (One of the reasons being that I think an important part of a lifelong relationship would be what Christian Socialist mentions: sexual compatibility. I have a definite sexual appetite, and would prefer to be with someone whose appetite is similar). However, I have absolutely no sexual confidence, thanks to my fundy-lite upbringing. It made me have a very . . . hmm, adversarial relationship with my own body. The conviction that my body was something dirty, something whose feelings and urges were sinful and must be conquered by force of will. That does a number on your self-esteem. Sex should not be indelibly associated with shame.
      Speaking of bodies being completely linked with shame and self-loathing: I would like to thank Darrell for a post a few years ago – Fundy Sex Week where you talked about masturbation, and just flat-out said that no, masturbation wasn’t wrong. I had felt years and years of guilt and anguish, and that one dang post helped free me. THANKYOU.
      I find it interesting that so many individuals with vaginas do not have orgasms when sex is performed as we typically envision it to be performed, yet that way is still how we continue to envision it: in other words, we have culturally largely defined one act to be all of sex, and that act is not at all guaranteed to bring enjoyment toward those with vaginas, but we still tend to see that particular act as the default of what sex should be, instead of re-envisioning the default to be perhaps a more complex act that involves things that bring enjoyment to both parties. Ah, patriarchy, you are truly a dick.

      1. I would have to say that sex outside of marriage would be wrong. For me at least, since I promised in my marriage vows.

        And, of course, there are quite a few Scriptures regarding sex and marriage.

        From my own study of Leviticus, it seems the primary laws about sex and sexuality were created 1) to maintain a clear lineage, 2) to separate the people from the national groups around them (including their religions), and 3) to ensure that children were the primary focus of having such relationships.

        Having children was the primary focus of marriage. After all, God’s future promises were to Abraham’s descendants, and if you didn’t have children, there would be no descendants to inherit the promises and you would lose out. Future existence was not thought of as “eternal life” in a conscious state. Future existence was through one’s children, then their children, and so on.

        So if a man did not have children from one wife, he would marry another. Marriage was not for companionship. It was for children. And if a man died without children, his close kin would “marry” his wife (Levirate marriage) to father children on his behalf. Again, children were the focus, the duty, the obligation. The wife was mostly a baby machine and runner of the household.

        It was also very important to keep good genealogical records because again, you shared in the promises of God only if you were a descendant of Abraham! If there was no record, you lost out. Imagine the impact on the Jews who had married and had children in the diaspora who lost the records! Many priestly and levitical positions were lost because their lineage was not found!

        Of course it revolved around a bronze-age vision of property and property rights, and inheritance. Women, wives were property. You got a wife by contract, and sometimes your family and her family got together and told you who you would marry, and when, leaving you with no choice in the matter. Paul’s admonition to husbands to love their wives was important. If you didn’t choose her, but she was chosen for you, that love might not be freely given or developed.

        IF our current ideas of sexual morality came from these roots, it is reasonable to ask if the actions and restrictions required from them reasonably still apply. But even if it is a reasonable question, it is terribly hard to get any traction on a discussion about it. People do not want to be seen as promoting “immorality.”

  14. Passive-aggressive pomposity. My Jesus would drive them out of their admin offices with a whip, and turn over their registration tables. A den of thieves, robbing young adults from the experience of worshipping God, and false accusers heaping manufactured guilt on sincere seekers of God. To be rebuked for listening to Christian music? Misguided vipers.

  15. So accountability in the IFB for those in leadership is practically non-existent if it exists at all. But for anyone without power in the IFB, accountability is almost militant in its application.
    I find the IFB to have boundary issues…while yes churches and Christian schools should be concerned about the spirituality of those attending–you cannot force spirituality or fruit of the Spirit upon anyone. All you can do is provide the space for people to encounter God. This letter is not providing space for an encounter with God but instead forcing someone to work through problems perceived only by a group of administrative board members.
    I find it ironic how controlling the IFB can be of its constituents and yet the lack of self control exhibited by those in leadership.

  16. I received one of these letters in 1981. They certainly are nothing new. I was put on “Spiritual Pro” because I found it offensive that the dormitory supervisors were extorting Bible Conference offerings from us poor students. I never had demerits, never had (or at least showed) a bad attitude. I just told my dorm supe that I would give what I was able, when I was able. Know what was really stupid? I was paying for my own college and they sent a copy of that letter to my (unsaved) parent. Yeah, that served a whole lot of good. To this day I wouldn’t piss on Doug Sprunger if he was on fire.

      1. Was Doug Sprunger really that bad? He was assistant pastor at the church that ran my Xian school, so I heard him speak, like, a million times in chapel.

        He seemed more like a milquetoast to me.

  17. This doesn’t surprise me. As a student at Cedarville in the early 90’s – we got a fresh crop of BJU defectors each quarter seeking asylum. We stayed up late to hear the tales of terror: black-listed music, pink/blue sidewalks, lights out curfew, even the tale of co-eds who looked lovingly into each others eyes and got kicked out for “PDA.” Apparently they told the dean they were wearing contact lenses – so no risk for pregnancy.

    Funny thing is – I used to get asked for tales of my own (“is it true?!”) by other less strict colleges (and public schools) for Cedarville’s horror stories: girls wearing dresses, mandatory daily chapel, curfew, no “face” cards allowed, no movies – the list goes on.

      1. True. U2 was banned – deemed secular music. And so was dancing for that matter, which of course, begged for all manner of ridiculous definitions. What IS dancing, exactly? Enter: students ridiculing the definition and pushing that to the limit.

        Oh…and not allowed to wear shorts at sporting events UNLESS you are participating. yes. Define: participate.

        No…we were not legalistic at all. *sarcasm*

  18. Please tell me someone has given a deposition to GRACE regarding their fruit being inspected? Seems a bit beyond the bounds of appropriate touching in an educational setting to me.

    1. Oh.My.Gosh. I hope that Jon trolls SFL.

      You’re banned from campus. Probably for life. Of course, if you’re like me, you’ve no desire to set foot on those acres of hell ever again.

      When will BJU admin learn that they can’t control the interwebs and social media? The Net will be their downfall as graduates tell the truth about the cruelty, hatred, and insanity that is Fundy U.

    2. I thought it amusing that the dean writes that he knows the former student but also writes IF you live in Greenville, students can’t visit you.

      If he knows him (and if he’s writing to him), he knows what town he’s in. Saying students can’t visit you to someone who doesn’t even live in Greenville seems like extra rubbing it in.

      But here’s the main thing: BJU loves to be punitive. If a Christian you know and care for is involved in sinful behavior, you should lovingly express your concern to him. But then saying, “Because you did this, you are going to be punished” (in this case by not being allowed on campus) moves the discussion from the concern of a fellow Christian into the moral outrage of an offended authority, not really a position that BJU has a right to have.

      1. But then saying, “Because you did this, you are going to be punished” (in this case by not being allowed on campus) moves the discussion from the concern of a fellow Christian into the moral outrage of an offended authority, not really a position that BJU has a right to have.

        Great point!

        1. -It’s only punishment if it’s bothersome.

          In this case, it seems like he is telling a sweet-toothed child they can’t have any more spinach or liver.

          It is funny, in that sad way, that BJU tries to control their alumni, to prevent them from disagreeing with them. -They’re never going to learn, are they?

      2. “Now, concerning the restriction from campus, Mr. Daulton didn’t say that you were prohibited from “ever again setting foot on campus and ever visiting with current students.” …On the rare occasion when such a restriction is made, it is only in place until the attitude or conduct is corrected. …It’s unfortunate that instead of writing as judgmentally as you have, you didn’t simply say “you know, the way we were conversing wasn’t in keeping with a a good Christian testimony. I’m sorry and by God’s grace it won’t happen again.” What a whole different turn this would have taken with that kind of spirit.”


        1. Between Bierman, Daulton, and the rest of the pompous fruit inspectors, I want to don a dominatrix costume, stride into the Admin building, and start driving people out with my whip.

          They like punitive? They can have it.

        2. I would like to see that. No doubt some of the Admin folk would be into that stuff, too.

          Take a video camera. Post a little snippet on the web and the movie would sell. We’d make a fortune!

      3. Dear pastor’s wife:

        ‘BJU loves to be punitive…’

        … yet squeals ‘persecution’ like a speared pig the instant someone shifts the spotlight on Snob Clones.

        Question our actions/decisions or the motives driving them? Oh, the frightfulness and ferocity of the attacks on us.

        Christian Socialist

      4. When I started posting my observations on several different blogs, I lived in fear that someone at BJU would read them and I would be contacted and told my diplomas had been revoked.

        1. Actually I have two from this Unaccredited Institution. Interestingly enough, Clemson University accepted the credits for me to enter their Graduate Program, which I gladly did.

    3. I just don’t understand using the word “shame”. Nowhere in the New Testament do I see the word shame used to bring a brother back to a right relationship with God. Is this the goodness of God leading to repentance?

    4. I want a letter like that! I don’t know if I exist to them, though.

      Oh, wait. I was just a “dumb trade student”. Not much is/was expected of me anyway.

      Once, back in the day, we were in the aviation maintenance classroom doing some drawing projects. Dr. Wood walked in to speak with our instructor, and I figured we were all in trouble. Especially me. I was sitting on the back of my chair hunched over my drawing board with a Braves cap on. Backwards. I had also carried my portable turntable in and we were listening to my Anne Murray Christmas album. I’m pretty sure it would not pass check. He never said anything. I guess having your classroom outside the fence helps.

        1. “2 Peter 2: 10 has something to say about those who “walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.”

          Hmmm. Dr. Wood thought of himself, Bob III, and others at the school as “Dignities”? Whoa! Talk about a high opinion of themselves!

          As for despising government, Bob Jones University has certainly been guilty of that! I remember times when Bob Jr. would pray his Imprecatory Prayers asking God to smite and kill some government official!

        2. mentizzle, you have quite the collection of hate mail from BJU…thinly disguised as rebuke or (*cough*) concern. Interesting that they just hate what a grad was saying or joking ref the (*cough*) university…yet were apparently counseling victims of sexual abuse to just forgive their rapist; to repent of the sin of bitterness that the abused holds toward the rapist. (Yet no need to go to the police, apparently. Just ‘forgive’.) If there is a hell, it won’t be hot enough for such as these.

          I look forward to the release of the GRACE report. Reading your letters has been a bit of a trigger for me, but I appreciate your posting them.

    5. I was laughing at the line that said: You are not under University policy, and I have no desire to chasten you.

      I think what he really meant to write was: I strongly wish that you were under University policy, so that I could chasten you thoroughly.

  19. I was under spiritual counseling my junior year, and it was hell. I wrote a bit about it on my blog. It was never made clear WHY I had to have counseling, but the spirit of fear even amidst a lack of concrete examples to prove my bad attitude made me meekly submit.

        1. And your screen name I assume is your real name. So I guess it’s same to assume you are the most important thing to yourself using your logic.

        2. You assume wrongly about it being my real name, but yes, it is one of the more important things in my life. Read it carefully, google it, and you will be enlightened. 🙂
          BTW was I being insulting? I thought you were proud of being fundy4life.

        3. Also fundy4, you added the word “most”, which wasn’t in my original post. I should hope that many things are important to each of us, but that only One is the most important.

        4. The lack of understanding that salary does not equate to intellect, education, or reason, is pretty stunning.

          Right because intelligent people usually make peanuts. There is no correlation whatsoever between the 2.

        1. How is that related to the comment/question at all?

          PS, your original comment about people getting to choose where they have their education, I’m assuming is related to college only? Obviously no one has any say whatsoever on their own primary, and secondary education, and I can’t imagine that to be your claim? It’s a pretty questionable assertion that high schoolers on their own choose any college with anything but extremely strong direction of family & friends.

          The NCAA has countless policies on what all parents & family are not allowed to accept as motivation to send an athletic offspring on scholarship to any given school precisely because parents are so closely involved & guiding the decision.

          I would argue that part of your original comment is just as or more so indicative of a fundy education that has you posting those kinds of naive statements.

        2. Dear Fundy4life

          “How much money do you make per year?”

          A) Irrelevant to the discussion
          B) None of your business

        3. I know.

          I will quote a line from Wikipedia and give the reference. Though Wikipedia is not the best source to use, in this case it is fairly accurate.

          “The word malapropism comes ultimately from the French mal à propos meaning “inappropriate” via “Mrs. Malaprop”, a character in the Richard Brinsley Sheridan comedy The Rivals (1775) who habitually misused her words.”

          I really ought to tell you this. You make it easy to tease you because your grammar is atrocious, your spelling sloppy, and your use of words, well, inappropriate. And the harder you try to impress the more you achieve the opposite.

          I do owe you an apology for teasing you. I really don’t mean anything malicious by it, but having been teased myself over similar things when I was young, I ought to be ashamed of myself for doing it. And as I talk here, I really am.

          I suggest you attend a local community college. Get your language skills in order so you can make a better impression. Take literature classes that focus on interpretation and analysis so that you learn how to better compose and write an argument.

          Please remember, I was a fundamentalist for many years. Frankly, what led me out of fundamentalism was getting educated. You, my friend, need more of it.

          I don’t mind sparring with you. And this kind of sparring can help you learn. But the real improvements will come as you sit under some good instruction and put that to good use. You will find the world opening up to you in wonder and meaning as you do.

        4. I make just under 6 figures a year rgtmath. That’s more than most people I know. I’m not that dumb. So yeah, I have fat fingers and I don’t take time to proofread. However, you are rude and talk down to others. Never judge a book by its cover.

        5. Just under 6 figures? Less than 9999.99?

          Of course, I am teasing again. But honestly, how much you make is not a direct relation to how much you know. It may be simply who you know, how dishonest you are, or whether you are employed in a trade that most others would have nothing to do with but desperately need.

          I have fat fingers, too. The problem is that you really do show at times that you don’t know what you are talking about. When you do that, you open yourself up.

          You may think I am being rude by telling you this. I am trying to be your friend and give you wise counsel.

          Of course, I cannot know you except by your writing. But I note that the way people write indicates how they think. When I take a look at the writing many of the students at my college put out, it fills me with fear for the future. I hope our new emphasis on writing and reasoning will help.

          In any case, I am not at all trying to be rude to you. You can believe it or not. But you need more than a spell-check or proof-reading. You will be doing yourself a favor by putting aside the umbrage and seeking some self-improvement.

        6. The lack of understanding that salary does not equate to intellect, education, or reason, is pretty stunning.

          If you were as bright as you imply, and it equated to financial success in any direct/dependable way, you wouldn’t be on a W2.

        7. The is completely Ir-elephant to this conversation except for the mention of malapropagations .True story. My parents got into a conversation with a catholic friend about what protestants and catholics believe. In the course of that conversation she said that “not all Catholics believe the Pope is inflammable. She also said that catholics of her generation didn’t believe in divorce, but a marriage can be annihalated, but only if it hadn’t been consumed. I suppose she meant it hadn’t been constipated.

        8. Jesus: You cannot serve God & Mammon.
          Jimmy Johns: I believe money is a lousy way to keep score.
          Fundy4Life: I make more than you do. QED

        9. Gotta remember my own guidelines.

          Don’t engage the crazy
          Don’t feed the trolls

        10. If salary has a direct correlation to intelligence, then it can be assumed that Britney Spears has a higher intelligence than fundy4life?

        11. Lyrics from the dearly departed Tim Wilson:

          Paris Hilton could f*ck up a county fair.
          Just proof that you can be stupid and still be a billion-f*cking-aire….

  20. One thing I remember from BJU recruiting in Christian schools is their response when the question about their strict music rules came up: they’d say, “Would you let your music preferences keep you from following God’s direction for your life? You can’t put aside your own desires for a couple years to get a Christian education?” The implication was, “Don’t you love Jesus more than your music?”

    What they don’t admit is that simply refraining from not listening to that music isn’t enough. They want you to not talk about it with anyone which sounds easy to do until you realize that you’ll be constantly hearing people make inaccurate statements about the music or about people who like that music or churches that play it. Then, how can you keep quiet when you hear people spouting misconceptions or outright lies? Also, it’s one thing to not attend a church with a more contemporary music style for four years; it’s another to have to submit yourself to attending a church that lambastes other churches over nothing more than worship styles.

    In addition, you are making connections with friends that you may keep for a lifetime, yet this friendship is often conditional because these people are taught to separate from people who disagree with them, even on issues like music. So you’re spending four years making relationships that you may end up losing when you return to your originally held music preferences.

    It’s even worse if you’re a Bible major. The churches you’re reaching out to all have those same rules so what you once thought was just a 4 year commitment becomes a life-long influence.

    I don’t think that’s fair marketing.

    1. Pastor wife: Also, it’s one thing to not attend a church with a more contemporary music style for four years; it’s another to have to submit yourself to attending a church that lambastes other churches over nothing more than worship styles.

      It’s even worse if you’re a Bible major. The churches you’re reaching out to all have those same rules so what you once thought was just a 4 year commitment becomes a life-long influence.

      I don’t think that’s fair marketing.

      If you cannot operate under the rules of any institution then it would be wise to stay away. To talk about merely gives them that much more credence.

      1. The issue pastor’s wife mentioned is not the inability to live under the rules of the institution, but the difficulty in living under an institution that preaches separation from other believers over something that is only personal taste, not sin.
        Pastor’s wife clearly stated that she was willing to submit to the rules, but not tothe ungodly attitude taught.

        1. Most Bible colleges that I know of state that the rules are not indications of classifying sin, but rather putting forth a desired environment for the student body as a whole.

        2. Yes, Tiecey.

          Also, I wasn’t speaking of myself. My parents had the same rules as BJU regarding music which I followed. (They also didn’t let me wear makeup or get my ears pierced; they thought a lot of the BJU female students looked very worldly.) So I had no real difficulties with music while at BJU. It’s been since, as an adult, seeing them recruit for the college that I’ve heard this particular argument being used and I don’t think it’s fair.

        3. Welcome all Poes/trolls! It’s always good to have more than one. What if one takes a day off? Discussions would lag, and no one would need to renew their blood pressure medication.

        4. Pastor’s wife: It’s been since, as an adult, seeing them recruit for the college that I’ve heard this particular argument being used and I don’t think it’s fair.

          A fair is where pigs are judged. Look if you don’t like the school, get over it. There is nothing you can do to get the rules changed. I agree some of the rules seem silly, but it there right to have them.

        5. Seriously, fundy4, I say what I say tongue-in-cheek for the most part. I’ve never tried to insult anyone on the internet. And I do like Poes/trolls. They keep things from stagnating. I’m not sure if you are one though. I was just trying to stir the pot. 😉
          BTW, you tried to insult me too, but after so many years working with young people, I rarely get insulted. Sorry!

        6. “A fair is where pigs are judged.”
          Darn, there goes one of my favourite hymns, Fairest Lord Jesus.

        7. fundy4life wrote, “I agree some of the rules seem silly, but it there right to have them.”

          NO, it is NOT their right to equate their own personal preferences to the level of Scripture and then present themselves as following Christ more closely than other Christians. It is the right of every believer to evaluate, like the Bereans, what a preacher (or a Christian college president) says and see if it matches with Scripture.

          Personally, I have no problem that BJU doesn’t allow CCM in the dorms or on their chapel platform. I despise, however, the labeling of only their style of music as “God-honoring” and the accusations that contemporary worship is worldly and evil.

      2. Pastor’s wife I don’t see where they have made claims about how they feel they are better than other Christians. If you can please show me I’d appreciate it.

        I’m pretty sure part of the enrollment at most Fundy colleges is that one must read the handbook in its entirety. They don’t hide who they are. So if one does not agree with such rules or expectations then they probably should not enroll.

        The things we do, the things we say tell the world around us who we are. Our actions do matter.

        I hope you know that I not trying to be argumentative. I’m sure you are a sweet lady. Thank you.

        1. Fundy4, “I’m pretty sure part of the enrollment at most Fundy colleges is that one must read the handbook in its entirety. They don’t hide who they are.”

          No. This is not the case at PCC. One was not allowed access to the handbook in its entirety until after enrollment and arrival upon campus.

        2. During my three years at the World’s Most Unusual University, I never heard an actual claim that they were better than other Christians. The statement doesn’t have to be made in those exact words to be there. That is the attitude presented bu the school, especially by the traveling recruiting groups. (In their defense, I also get the same vibes from every other traveling Fundy U group.)
          That is an attitude inherent with Fundy groups. My Fundy High taught us we were the holiest school in the state, because we had the most rules to live holy by. Maybe not by words, but that was the attitude we got in chapel. It is natural to think your group is best. But what is “best”? I Cor. 10 teaches that we can have personal guidelines, but not expect everyone to have the same.

          The rules are fine. Have as many as you like. Just don’t teach that they are God’s rules if they are personal preference.

        3. The attitude is always presented in subtle language that World’s Holiest Fundy Kawlij that it is indeed, the holiest place doing the mostest and bestest work for gid.

          I remember being at FBC Hammond during a church service and hearing that the HAC students needed to make FBC their “church home” because FBC was going to change America and make history and why didn’t we want to be part of it? The superiority is implicit everywhere.

          You’re wearing knee-high hose? You’re a harlot. Why aren’t you wearing panty hose like the godly wimmin do? Leaving the dorm with wet hair? Why, that’s downright heathen. Wearing pajama pants to bed? What if there’s a fire? Here, change into a nightgown before leaving the building and if you burn to death that’s gid’s punishment for your heathenness.

          And yes, while students are required to sign off on the handbook, the handbook is never given to students until the check is signed and the student is on campus.

        4. About the superiority…heard at my former BJU church from one of the pastor’s daughters (who lies without batting an eyelash and expects things be done for her/given to her because of her “status”……”There are other churches in (name of town) that preach the gospel. Sniff. Truly an audible, nose turned up, dismissive sniff. But at least those hedonistic, barely saved churches had that going for them.

    2. Dear pastor’s wife:

      At this point, my reply would be:

      ‘Would you let your music rules keep students from following God’s direction for my life? In the spirit of Col 2:23, can’t you put aside your appearance of wisdom, self-made religion, self-abasement and severely Gnosticized [i.e., heretical] asceticism for a couple of years so youths may receive Christian education? Don’t you love Jesus and our youths more than your Gnostic heresy?’

      You’ve stuck your finger on the reason I had to walk away from Snob Clones. In the face of misconceptions and outright falsehoods, you live the silent lie.

      I also suspect that spiritual probation attempted to double-down on those suspected of recognizing the lie for what it was.

      Scripture knows of another attempt to construct a culture that kept God’s claims and punishments at bay while rulers subjugated the masses to their self-serving whims. The name of that place was Babel.

      Wherever culture fitting such a description exists, the greatest fear of those on the top is the diversity of tongues.

      Christian Socialist

        1. Exactly. If you don’t agree with them they automatically classify you as a troll. It’s the equivalent of pulling the race card.

        2. Dear stacymcanderson:

          The dishonest behavior which your own words attest indicates that you are in an adversarial relationship with God and his people.

          In order that your participation among us will not be a lie, please make full and free confession of your systemic dishonesty to God, Darrell and forum participants.

          Christian Socialist

  21. Dear SFL Reader:

    A mid-level Snob Clones reichadistration twit once pondered aloud whether I should be spiritually probated. It seems that my demeanor suggested a lack of ‘yieldness’ to God’s will. I admitted to retaining private judgment but contended that in itself, that is a mark of maturity. I denied that this implied a lack of ‘yieldness’ to God. I think that what did it was the point that the only one ever to fully love and serve our heavenly Father was our Lord Jesus Christ. From Jesus’ standpoint, we could all stand some spiritual probation. But that seems contrary both to spiritual life and the demeanor with which Jesus views the church. He dropped the matter there.

    Christian Socialist

  22. This reminds me of the time my nasty, bullying, shouty, pinchy-slappy, undiagnosed-rageaholic older sister decided to give me the silent treatment as my punishment that afternoon. (She had been given authority to discipline in loco parentis, which is a whole other can of dysfunction but parallels the inappropriate and inept authority claimed by BJU.)

    Such a peaceful day that was.

      1. I know, right? I mentally kicked myself afterward for not acting cowed and sad, but it was such.a.relief to be indoors at the same time as my sister and not need to know where she was in relation to me at all times. I actually sat in the living room reading a book!

  23. The thought that comes to mind is that in order to understand the letter, one needs to be schooled in BJUology.
    “Your domestic residence is being remodeled using heat” means “Your house is on fire”.
    Can someone try to translate this memo into something the rest of us can understand?

  24. Oh, the flashbacks. I had a panic attack every. single. time. I found a letter on official BJU stationery in my PO box. ‘What have I done? Am I in trouble? Am I being socialed or campused? Did someone turn me in for going to the movies over summer vacation after my freshman year? Did they finally figure out my boyfriend & I worked in the same department on campus?” (Those last 2 could have gotten me into serious trouble.)

    I don’t miss it at all.

  25. UN Agenda 21 in the UN’s own words.

    Agenda 21 is a comprehensive plan of action to be taken globally, nationally and locally by organizations of the United Nations System, Governments, and Major Groups in every area in which human impacts on the environment.




    Sustainable, Low Carbon Transport in Emerging and Developing Economies


    At the World Summit on Sustainable Development (WSSD) held in Johannesburg in 2002, Member States agreed to “promote an integrated approach to policymaking at the national, regional and local levels for transport services and systems to promote sustainable development, including policies and planning for land use, infrastructure, public transport systems and goods delivery networks, with a view to providing safe, affordable and efficient transportation, increasing energy efficiency, reducing pollution, congestion and adverse health effects and limiting urban sprawl, taking into account national priorities and circumstances.”

    Since the WSSD, there has been growing realization that the current rapid unrestrained growth in private motorization is not sustainable.

    Application of green economy in the transport sector generally involves technological change, including efficiency enhancements, demand reduction and changes in consumer behaviour. In the case of the transport sector, changes in consumer behaviour can mean abandoning the use of private cars in favour of public transport or non‐motorized transport. Demand reduction can involve limiting access to private cars
    through imposing auction or lottery‐based vehicle quotas.


    The Future We Want – Rio+20 – highlighted the following thematic areas and cross-sectoral issues

  26. Fruit? Me thinks these Fundy Bible colleges are too full of “Fruit Loops”. They all too often have their “Fruit of the Looms” pulled up too tight all bunched up. What a colossal waste of time!! How many of these clowns are out there misguided and misguiding young impressionable minds. How might these frauds, phonies, artificial pretenders react and act if they could time-travel back to the first century church where it WOULD REALLY COST YOU to be a Christian?
    Reading this garbage reminds me of my “stupid” years when I wanted these clown’s approval. I don’t want to over-use the puns, but in every sense of the word I was “low-hanging fruit” to be picked. It took t-e-n…….l-o-n-g…….y-e-a-r-s for me to grow up and recognize these clowns, charlatans and importers for what were. Fundy Bible college life is an artificial life-style. My advice; grow up, learn a marketable skill so you can support yourself and your family and stay immersed in the Bible, and make it your purpose to be honest with yourself and those around you.

  27. Ok, I think I finally put my finger on what bothers me so much about this. Yeah, it’s really obvious. But I’m slow.

    This is control freakery to the nth power.

    I had a very controlling mom, so I’m sensitive to the syndrome. She was a great mom in many ways (very loving), but she could NOT let go of the reins. She even tried to control my thoughts, well into adulthood. (Proof positive that this syndrome transcends political and religious categories: My mom was anti-religious and hard-core leftist. She could not stand the fact that I had become devout and fairly conservative.)

    But even my mom’s control freakery could not compare with that of the boss I reported to for over 13 years. (Am still in the same company but reporting to a different boss — PTL!) This erstwhile boss monitored my every movement and zinged me multiple times each day to ask when I would have project X or Y done — even if they weren’t due for weeks. She was a classic gatekeeper who penalized me for communicating with anyone outside our team. If I submitted ideas to her, they never saw the light of day; and if I submitted them to anyone else, she went ballistic. And believe me, that is the tip of the proverbial iceberg. I could say so much more. Suffice it to say that several employees left the company just to get away from this person. And at least one went semi-public with his story.

    IOW, I know all about control freakery. This BJU stunt is a textbook case. Lord have mercy.

    1. Yep.

      Someone recently told me that Pettit’s music was banned from campus ingestion…or maybe it gives the hearer indigestion!

      If that’s the case, I’m sure campus policy has adjusted accordingly.

      Speaking of Steve:

      I miss Keith Green (not Steve? Well there is a Steve Green, though I’m more familiar with his unrelated brother, Keith.)

      I miss Steve McQueen.

      I miss Steve Martin (oops, he’s still alive).

      I miss Steve Jobs.

      I miss Steve Austin (a man barely alive).

      I miss Steve Irwin (Don’t swim with Stingrays).

      I miss the Steve Miller Band.

      I miss Steve Young (who was much better than Joe Montana).

      So many Steves, so little time.


      PS. Maybe I should have brought this to “Inane Chat.”

  28. I remember a Freshmen classmate being ridiculed and screamed at for trying to discuss BJU’s music standards. It was an awful experience that I will never forget. I learned that day to trust no one in any position of authority at BJU. My classmate had a very miserable semester that included many visits to the DOM’s office. He did not return after Christmas break.
    The CCM haters like to overlook or give a twisted interpretation of Psalm 150. This passage clearly defeats most of their lame arguments. It has to be one of the loudest chapters of the Bible. The ESV (authorized by BJU) says, “Praise him with trumpet sound … lute … harp … tambourine … dance … strings … pipe … sounding symbols … loud clashing cymbals.”
    I’m surprised Daulton didn’t conduct car searches. He wouldn’t like the CCM and secular CDs I had stashed in various areas of my car. My music was an escape from the insanity.
    I have been away from BJU for 7 years, and I’ve been away from the IFB church for 13 months. I’ve been following SFL for about 18 months and this is my first post. Thank you for being a part of the healing process!

    1. Hail Friend, and Well Met!

      Glad to have you here. I hope you will find us a pleasant and lively crew, cobbled as we are together from all kinds of life experiences. Yours we will gladly add to the mix.

    2. BeALight, It’s good to have you along for the conversation. We are a bit of a motley crew, widely separated by viewpoint, opinion, geography, and age. We argue over stuff like the Oxford comma. But we all have the fundy thing that impacted us at some point in life. Some stayed, some moved a little to the left, and some of us swung ‘way over to the left, never to return. You’re most welcome here with us.

        1. I LOVE THE OXFORD COMMA! I’m indoctrinating my hoamskuled children in the proper use of the comma.

    3. Welcome, BeALight! I’m not IFB, but I grew up in the Evangelical Protestant Sub-Culture of Northern Ireland, which is a bit like IFB cubed, so a lot of this stuff resonates, I hope this forum helps bring healing to you. It has certainly helped me. And I pray that you will live up to your name. 🙂

        1. Especially since they are pouring out of the woodworks today!

          I just can’t stand the abrupt changes to stuff that has no relation. Probation, rules, suddenly Agenda 21? Blech.

      1. Ooh, I grew up in the Evangelical Protestant subculture of Western Canada (we were really loud, but still said ‘please’), which was kinda fundy-lite.
        Welcome, BeALight! May your posts always be swift, and George always be kind!

      2. Thank you! I want to use my experiences to help encourage others who are struggling with their exit from the IFB and legalism; that is my prayer.
        I am thankful for friends at my new church who have helped me truly understand God’s grace. I am thankful to be free from the legalistic “good intentions.”

    4. Dear BeALight:

      Greetings and welcome!

      Welcome to the forum, and more importantly, welcome to life and freedom in Jesus Christ.

      Some time ago, I said that Bob Jones University want to function as a corporate mediator of salvation beside and in addition to the one true mediator, Jesus Christ. Can you imagine anyone saying that life and freedom could be found outside the good graces of Bob Jones and its Snob Clones.

      Liutgard has declared herself a musical medievalist, and I’m guessing that I’m more entrenched there than even she is.

      I think the bottom line is the bottom line. If people are open to experiencing life in other quarters of the vineyard, some loss of revenue will follow inevitably.

      Again, welcome!

      Christian Socialist

      PS: I’m surprised that the school didn’t ban Ps 150 as a subversive document.

    5. Welcooooome!!

      I kept my “forbidden music” on a tiny mp3 player in my pillow. Because Bebo Norman is soooooo worldly. Gotta keep the sanity somehow.

  29. If this has been addressed and I missed it, please accept my apologies.

    Matthew 7 is where most proof-texters get the “fruit-inspector” label. Guilt Ridden was correct. The fruit being inspected is the fruit of the teachers or leadership. The fruit inspectors, according to Jesus’ teaching, should be the students looking at the fruit of the false teachers twisting God’s Word for their own ends. The problem, and I was also in this boat at one time, is when you grow up in a particular culture, you assume what you have been taught is truth.

    The truth is out there.

    The farther I get from Fundystan, the more I look at all the snippets of verse I’ve heard as basis for what is or isn’t sin. As I read and study passages instead of verses, the more I understand grace vs. law, and the more I realize what I don’t know about the true God of the Bible. I sometimes wonder if because so much of Scripture is hard to understand, we make all of it hard even though it isn’t.

    My morning ramble is over. If you need me, I’ll be changing front bearings on the Mini.

    1. If you need me, I’ll be changing front bearings on the Mini.


      And great post. Unfortunately, Jesus’ teachings are far to democratic and egalitarian for many to bear. And the kicker is, it seems like he actually believed what he taught.

      1. Anyone who uses the words “democratic” and “egalitarian” is obviously a liberal sissy.

        On a not quite so sarcastic note, hearing Fundies discuss equality reminds me of my three weeks in China. Everyone is equal, but the guy with the nice VW and Range Rover was a little more “equal” than most.

        1. Oh, man, I have wanted a Miata since they came out. It may end up being my midlife crisis. I drove one on the concourse at the New Orleans auto show back in 1998, and while I couldn’t get it up to speed, the gear shifter was like butter. Loved it.

        2. I drove a friends Miata and was surprised how much I did not like it. I felt I was looking at the top of the windscreen, and had to duck to see under it, and I’m a bit vertically challenged.
          That was a very early model, and I’ve been told that is no longer a problem. maybe I’ll drive another one day.

          This is my second Mini. My older daughter and son each have one, they enjoyed mine so much. It’s fun to drive, not so much fun to work on. But then, no engine on a car of mine has been as easy to access since I got rid of my ’69 Rambler with a straight six.

        3. Uncle Wilver,
          The old engines were much easier to work on. Trouble was, I was always setting the gap on the points, fiddling with this or that. Nowadays they don’t require nearly as much work. I finally came into the 21st C and bought an OBD2 code reader. Diagnosis is now a bit less of a black art.

          Sorry you had a bad experience with a Miata. Probably a 1st generation (NA). Mine is an NB, which fixed many of the issues of the NA but didn’t gain the weight of the more luxurious NCs.

          Every time my wife sees a Mini she exclaims how cute those cars are.

      2. BJg- I don’t miss points and condenser setting at all. what I miss the most is being able to get to the alternator or water pump without pulling a fender-well out.
        I also a got an ODBII code reader. My Suburban check engine light came on, so I ran the codes. I got two. One says it is running rich, the other says it is running lean. The performance and mileage are the same, so I ignore it other than I sometimes check and see if any other codes have come up.

        The Miata I drove was a 1st gen. I have heard the 2nd Gen Miatas are a lot better. Maybe I’ll get a chance to find out one day. I would like to test drive the Mini Roadster. I wonder how it would compare to the Miata.

        1. I miss my 70s era Chrysler product. It was cool. It had a great factory-installed theft deterrent. It wasn’t meant to be one — bad solenoid — but unless you knew the trick to start it you weren’t going anywhwere.

  30. This morning I took the day off for some R&R. My KJV Bible is setting in my lap as I need to be in the Word. I am 60 years old now and placed my trust in Christ 45 years ago. 40 years ago I stepped onto the Fundy cult if Pillsbury Baptist Bible College. I assure you that lying, cheating, fornication, dishonesty and all manner if iniquity was there. I saw it with my own eyes and was deeply emotionally damaged and disillusioned by it. After having spence enough to extract myself out of the belly of that monster of “separated from the world” “Independent Fundamental Militant Separated Baptists”, yes that’s what I heard over and over, it took me years to heal and in-learn that garbage. Their god was mean, angry and hostile.
    I know something of the cruelty if this world. I lost my father as a little boy. My mother married a hillbilly alcoholic and I was mercilessly beaten, neglected, exploited, molested and emotionally abused. I thought I found the gates of Heaven when I drove into Owatonna and the PBBC campus.
    It took me years to not see the KJV Bible as just another club to be bludgeoned with. PBBC became a smoking hole in the ground. Looking back when I see or hear Independent Fundamental Baptist I become very cold inside.
    I still love my KJV Bible and am so thankful my sins are covered by the Blood. I hope my being new to this site and my posts are healing to others who read them. I don’t want to be bitter. Time is too precious and life is too short for that.

        1. Hmm OK I worded it wrong and gave the wrong intent. What I was trying to say is that I haven’t heard that from my family nor from the people I know who were there at that time. A little clarification from him maybe please?

      1. You keep on being skeptical. That’s doesn’t negate what I saw and experienced. One of the womanizers that graduated from PBBC and Central Seminary is a sin-cursing amen shouting IFB “pastor” in southeastern Minnesota who nearly destroyed my marriage. You having family there at that time doesn’t mean squat. It’s hard for me to respond to your reply as it bothers me to no end. I was there as a student and later as an employee till I had enough sense to get out of Dodge. Deception is everywhere in the world and especially at IFB colleges. I personally know people today that think PBBC was like part of the inner parts of the Temple. I avoid them like the plague and they are part of my wife’s family too and are some of the worst IFB’ers. I see them every few years at family reunions in Iowa and they know better than to bring up the “good o’l days” of PBBC with me. They saw what they wanted to see. You may have wonderful family that didn’t see what I saw and was nearly ruined by it. Quite frankly I couldn’t care less what you are skeptical of…….I take that back, I guess I do since I’m taking time to respond to your response. Now I need to go think of something positive.

        1. Former Funny Mentalist, I applaud your posting! You illustrate a perfect problem we see in the IFB world.

          “Well, it didn’t happen to me, so it must not have happened to you!”

          Right. This is so comforting, so compassionate! It is the ultimate in disrespect.

          We don’t do this in other areas. If a person robs a store, we send the police to look for and apprehend him, because we realize that having robbed others, he could rob someone else.

          My wife and daughter regularly attend the IFB church I came out of, only occasionally going with me to the Episcopal Church. Their rationale is that they have friends there. I may say that the church hurt me (and it did), but they say it hasn’t hurt them. I should stop being “bitter” because my feelings only hurt me, not the church. Oh, and I should forgive, too, and stop acting like anything is wrong.

          Ultimately, that puts the blame for the abuse I suffered on me, not on them. It is a classic “blame the victim” approach. By continuing to support the church they help ensure the church never sees the need to change.

          While I have stopped objecting to them going, it still feels like a betrayal when they do.

    1. Welcome Former Funny Mentalist (Can I call you “Former” or do you Prefer “Mr. Funny Mentalist” or” Mr. Mentalist”?) . This forum has been a place of healing for me, as well as many others.It is good to talk openly about topics and throw aside the Christian Cliches…. I grew up in a strict background (not IFB but with many of its characteristics), and absorbed a lot of wrong ideas about God. Philip Yancy wrote a great book called “What’s so Amazing about Grace” and I can say that, through the love and concern and ministry of some great Christian Friends, I have experienced some of God’s Grace for myself .Maybe I will tell that story in full some day. My prayer is you experience as much of that Grace as I have. Maybe even more.

  31. It’s a shame that many people who are born and raised in this movement (i.e. myself and countless others) think that it’s perfectly normal to be treated this way at a “college.” They have known nothing different. Now, looking back, I think this is crazy. Back in college, I would have tried to look more “spiritual” and please them, ignorant little brainwashed IFB clone that I was.

      1. 100% agree (and identify) with you FWHFM. I’m sorry. I hope that as you get older it will improve for me. Aging has helped me a lot.

        And I agree with Dr. Fundystan. Mugen Wing has a great screen name. Helps if you love sports cars:)

        1. I considered making a wing out of wood to put on our old ’79 Grand Marquis. It had been my grandmothers, and we got it after she passed.

          The missus said no.

  32. I was on spiritual probation for a few weeks. I had some friends that were not spiritually interested and the prior semester, someone had nominated me for probation. The friends left, the hall leader graduated, the dorm counselor was new, everyone that could tell why I was on probation was gone. But still I was on. Yeah, it was a little embarassing and not always convenient to visit with the counselor, but I enjoyed getting some time to discuss spiritual things with someone. We had some good fellowship, I got to judge my own life and when after a few weeks of meeting he decided he didn’t know why I was on probation and didn’t think I needed to stay on it, we stopped regularly meeting and I was off. It was not a big deal and overall a positive in my life at the time. I had a reasonable counselor and that probably made all the difference. If it had been Mike or Mark Herbster, it could have been a much different story.

  33. I had a friend who was kicked out of a small evangelical college (not fundy, though) for getting too many demerits on things such as sitting next to a guy on the grass on the main quad, and for enrolling in an aerobics class at the local YMCA. I seem to recall there being some brouhaha over root beer, too, since it involves the word ‘beer’.

    1. You know, PCC has a point about banning IBC root beer. The bottle for that soda is made by the same company that makes beer bottles; I know this because my friend was in the glass bottle industry for a while. Of course, if you are unfamiliar with beer bottles you wouldn’t know that the two resembled each other.

      1. Lol, classic. It’s like “Let’s ban tide, since the company that makes the label also makes labels for Philip-Morris. Funny story, at one point the stock choices for the PCC retirement portfolio included either Philip Morris or RJ Reynolds (I can’t remember which one).

        1. Retirement portfolio? Why have one of those? If you trust gid isn’t that enough? Why haven’t you put aside your own money for retirement? And stocks!! That’s just a fancy way to gamble!! Those PCC folks are flaming liberals!

          If you are new to SFL, please be advised that any statement like that from me is said with tongue not just planted in my cheek, but permanently glued there.

      2. When I was in Amazonas, Brasil I became a fan of a local soft-drink called Guaraná Baré (Buy the Guaraná Antarctica brand if you find it. It is available in the States. I don’t know about the other countries represented here. I HIGHLY recommend it!). It was not unusual to pull one out of the case and the bottle have “cerveja” imprinted in the glass. The bottling plant uses whatever bottles are clean for whatever they are bottling that day. The paper label tells you what you are drinking, and in spite of my Fundy upbringing, had no qualms about drinking from the bottle. Even the unimprinted bottles are brown. I have an empty on my shelf as a souvenir. (I brought one home unopened to share with the family. They liked it so much we all went for a month a few years later, so they could buy their own at the local market)

      3. Back in Graves dorm lobby there was a vending machine that sold Leake Milk. We always said “Take a Leake every day!”

        Off topic, sorry.

  34. I am gratefully ignorant of this Fundy U/ religious college culture.
    Given what I read here, I’m left wondering: for what sort of careers can BJU or the other fundamentalist schools prepare you?

    1. I went to PCC. I majored in Computer Science. I did not graduate. I did learn computer logic fairly well. I did not learn socialization skills there (I always knew I was learning to interact with human beings better at various jobs I had off campus & in high school than I ever was going to at PCC). I was able to get an entry level position as computer operator and work from there over various jobs at various places around the country to get into some Windows support, then network admin & now am a network & voice engineer. I don’t have a lot of direct training I got from PCC that is applicable, but I do think it was a legit “how to think about how to get computers to do what you need” training. I feel fortunate that choosing PCC has not negatively impacted me, but I would not recommend other people to take the risk that it will not negatively impact them.

    2. The accounting degree from BJ is highly respected if the number of my friends hired by Big 4 CPA firms is any indication. Nursing and Education also. Then there are majors like Home Ec or Family and Consumer Sciences or Interior Decorating that are clearly just there for girls who hope to find a husband who don’t have the wattage requisite for career preparation. However, I fail to see how that is different than schools like Harvard or Stanford that offer Art History or Women’s Studies majors. There are indeed Fundy U’s that are crap no matter what, but BJ is not one of them.

    3. PCC has a well-respected nursing program. I know a woman — not an American citizen at the time — who got her RN from PCC, then got a job here in the US. She is married to a preacher boy and has a few children now.

  35. I can’t vouch for Women’s Studies, but I can tell you that Art History is not a slacker’s major. I had friends in that program (I was in the Medieval Studies dept, and had to take quite a bit of Art History), and ‘low wattage’ they were not.

  36. Any school that one goes to will have requirements and consequences for not meeting those. If you don’t like the requirements don’t go to the school. However, this letter goes beyond the pale. It is too ambiguous and is a general character indictment. It tries to sound nice, but comes across as patronizing. Additionally, it neither comes across as constructive criticism nor is it even convicting. It would cause me to make a decision to transfer to another school. A letter like this is NOT the way to handle concerns about students.

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