Fundy Tweet of the Week: Bible College

Today’s tweet comes from the pastor of the Calvary Road Baptist Church in New Albany, Indiana.


Really? That is one of your biggest fears? It must be nice to have so few worries. Then again, this is the church with the tagline “If you love the King James Bible you will love this church” painted on their sanctuary wall. Make of that what you may.

187 thoughts on “Fundy Tweet of the Week: Bible College”

      1. That was my first thought as well. College should be a place to learn to think for yourself, evaluate other points of view, and emerge as a more mature adult. Not to be treated like a child, shielded from new perspectives, and turned into Pharisees without a clue to relating to modern culture.

      2. A good pastor would be very concerned if any of his kids were going to attend any of the IFB Bible “colleges”. It’s unreal to think that this man values his own agenda to make a name for himself at his alma mater (presumably) than he values what is best for the lives he’s influencing.

      3. Dear BASSENCO:

        Has anyone pointed out to this guy what he said?
        Would it matter?

        Christian Socialist

        PS: I’d guess many youths have the same fear … ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

        1. Dear Christian Socialist:

          I don’t know.

          Any rumors that I have a relationship with this man are mere gossip. As anybody can tell you, I am still waiting for Dr Who to take me away with him in his TARDIS.


  1. If he cares about the kids, he’s worried that they’ll go to an IFB school and come out stunted.

    It’s more likely he’s worried that they’ll go to a school that teaches them to think so they’ll reject his false teachings.

  2. Or he can send his kids to a “Bible” college that blocks access to Twitter and/or Facebook. Problem solved!

    1. I’m pretty sure he’s not talking about his own kids. “As a pastor… my young people” sounds more to me like he’s playing the overreaching umbrella shtick to manipulate other peoples’ kids in his church.

  3. I have to say, I think this may be a legitimate concern in some ways.

    Bible Colleges can have a significant impact on the way one comes to view God and Scripture, and subsequently himself and the world around him. I think many of us could attest to experiences that would show that to be true.

    It isn’t that I would be concerned (as I suspect this man may be) that a young person may not share the same views on the King James Bible as I do at the end of four years. My concern would be that Bible College can be a means of either turning a young person into a little Bible-weilding Pharisee on one hand, or causing them to reject Scripture’s authority altogether on the other at the end of four years.

    Would I, as a Pastor, have larger concerns? Yes. But I still think this merits some weight.

    1. In IFB, he means an unaccredited school (probably the one he went to), that has severely limited majors options, and will have little to no positive career impact, often leaves kids having to start over 1-4 years later with very limited transferibility (sp?), or will kick them out for extremely petty reasons (attending movies, listening to music) after the student has invested years & $10k – $20k with very little to show for it.

    2. As a father, I hope my kids turn out ok–you know, not be serial killers or meth dealers or Republicans. But the delicate line I’m continually walking is knowing when to allow freedom and when to go all total control on them.

      Is coerced obedience really obedience? Is demanded love really love? Is laying down the law only breeding bitterness that will break out in a major way down the road?

      At some point, kids WILL figure out how they want to live–and at that same point, parents and pastors are going to have to figure out how to let them. If not in college, then when–when they’re 30? 40? Yeah, my older kids make decisions I don’t agree with, and I wish they (at least one of them, anyway) had chosen differently. But putting them in mind/behavior bondage doesn’t seem to be the answer either. Not if I still want to be able to speak with them. It’s a hard thing. Much love–not fear–is needed.

      1. “…not be serial killers or meth dealers or Republicans…” had me rofl! ๐Ÿ˜†

        1. Rob M,

          I see no humor in that. If we didn’t just have being offended as a topic-of-the-day, I would be offended.

          In any event, when I am in Vegas with some other Republican power-brokers after next week’s election, I am putting you on the agenda between our discussions on “Return of the Antichrist (Hillary)” and “What is the proper gratuity to leave at the Bunny Ranch – a/k/a we don’t want any of us to wind up looking cheap”.

          You are now on double-secret probation.

          Bro Bluto

        2. P.S. I’m fairly new here in these parts (silent reader for a while). The first thing one should know about me is this–I am always only half serious. The other half is just jest. The challenge is in knowing which half is speaking.

        3. nico – There is a 50/50 chance that I am half-kidding in 90% of my comments. The other half I am joking 80% of the time.

        4. Oh Lordy–one of my biggest fears and concerns is math.

          If math must be used, I pray for the day we return to the old-fashioned, good-enough-for-Paul-and-Silas Roman numeral system. The Arabic numbers used by liberals today are a terrorist ploy to destroy our God-blessed America.

        5. Nico, sometime you should read “The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero,” by Ropbert Kaplan. Kaplan tells (along with many other things) how medieval writers declared use of the figure “0” to be some kind of Satanic black magic.

        6. There are 10 types of people in the world; those who understand binary and those who do not.

        7. Big Gary, I KNEW it! Thanks for confirming my fear as valid. That zero–a precursor to the nihilism of the age.

          Tiarali, this little devious game of yours would not be possible if you had stuck to Roman numerals: “There are X types of people . . .”

          Speaking of, everyone knows the word “algebra” comes from Arabic, right? Any further reason needed for my obviously valid arithmophobia?

        8. So we all know that math is nico’s kryptonite.

          Play nice nico or I’ll throw a differential equation your way.

        9. One of the reasons for suspicion of zero was that it entered Europe by way of Muslim culture.
          That wasn’t the main reason, though– it’s just hard to get your mind around a nothing that you need to use to figure things out, and if I can’t understand something, it must be evil, right?

        10. Scorpio–huh? what? You must be an initiate into the higher levels of this dark art. I thought I could smell brimstone when you post. (Seriously though, when my high school senior daughter comes to me with a math question, I just point her over to my wife. She wears the pants when it comes to arithmetic.)

  4. His wife is wearing a UK shirt, and the kids would be well advised to try to get into UK or any public college than an IFB “college” for which this guy is carrying water.

    1. “As pastor, one of my biggest fears and concerns is my young people attending a university with simultaniously theworst football program and the most obnoxious basketball fans the SEC has ever produced.” ๐Ÿ˜€

      1. Someone here has made the comment in the past about how they preach against attending secular/state universities, but are then some of the biggest and most die-hard fans of the sports teams. Does not compute. ๐Ÿ™„

        1. They preach against working on Sunday, and then go and eat at a Restaurant for lunch after church.

          Since when has a fundy worried about double standards?

        2. Tiarali, that’s one thing I had a problem with. That and shopping on Sundays. How are you going to grow your church if potential candidates are working their butts off to provide you a good meal?

        3. Oh, that’s simple. Just leave them a “tip” that looks like a $50 bill and is really a tract! It’s such an awesome way to show the love of God!

          And, of course, if they are so hurt and disgusted that they worked their butts off and thought they were getting $50 they badly need for the long list of expenses a waiter’s job won’t fill, but instead got a passel of self-righteous preaching that they will end up paying taxes on as if they had been tipped . . . well, if they take offense at that and decide not to attend your church and angrily tell the story of your chicanery to anybody who will listen, then they’re just worldly and you have been persecuted.

    2. I went to UK. Tailgaiting, co-ed dorms, extensive network of non-fundie campus ministries, the creepy rolling around on the floor line of “My Old Kentucky Home,” basketball player worship – it’s a fundie sermon goldmine there.

      1. Hello, fellow Wildcat! Of course, I went to UK when Adolph Rupp was the basketball coach, not the name on the arena. Lots of opportunities for “corruption,” but far more for thinking, learning, and growing into adulthood.

      1. ๐Ÿ˜† Stop. ๐Ÿ˜†

        How many Rhodes scholars does U of L have? Last I checked it was one.

  5. What Bible colleges does Mr. Kleitz prefer, and which does he despise? What does Twitter and Facebook have to do with it?

    I’m assuming his “young people” must be hearing dissenting opinions and that’s what he really fears.

    1. “Iโ€™m assuming his โ€œyoung peopleโ€ must be hearing dissenting opinions and thatโ€™s what he really fears.”


  6. Facebook and Twitter were at the core of my “fall from grace”. I saw other people who were going to other churches and they were not on the receiving end of the chasing rod of God. Twitter and Facebook is significantly weakening the IFB movement.

  7. So, there are no other options besides “Bible college”? And fundies get on Calvinists for believing in predestination… If you go to an IFB church, you are predestined to either a Bible College/Fundy U or being branded a reprobate.

  8. His greatest fear is the marketplace of information. If your truth can’t stand up to new information, maybe you shouldn’t be so sold on your truth.

  9. As a pastor this is not my biggest fear. Of course I would steer them clear of any fundy college, but I don’t think any of those are on their radar.
    If we have taught them how to critically think about faith and to be comfortable with unanswered questions in and about their faith, then they are equipped to face college and life. If we have been a place where they have experienced God and felt accepted for who they are, then they will hopefully be church attenders when they are adults.

    This tweet just shows the weakness of the IFB. Their dogmatic truth which is used to define who is in and who is out is fragile and really only holds together within their sanctuary walls and religious communities.

    1. I have lamented before the presuppositions inherent in Fundystan, but I think you put your finger on the core issue – defining “who is in and who is out” seems to be the great chimeric idol of Fundystan (+1 if you got the MTG ref). Of course, for many of us, even thinking in binary terms is a chore, since it requires the laying aside of critical thinking in the first place.

  10. Dude…If you can’t teach them what you need to teach them in 18 years, you’ve already failed.

  11. Biggest fear and concern? Really?

    My biggest fear and concern involves the setting of Cormac McCarthy’s “The Road”, Velociraptors, and being bound by foot to this insane girl I knew in college.

    Pastor Kleitz isn’t trying hard enough.

  12. If you read the conversation stream attached to that tweet, there are numerous facepalm moments to be had, as they pat each other on the back for their principled stand against Northland (among others).

    I actually went to school at West Coast with one of them-Stephen King. Funny how he’s a bigger fundy than ever, while another sizable percentage of my graduating class has thrown off the fundy shackles, and escaped.

    1. actually he’s never heard of Northland, that likely makes it certain that this guys is way past the crazy side of the BJU dividing line between the somewhat moderate fundyland of the former Northern Baptist Convention/CBA leftovers like Pillsbury, Northland, MBBC, etc, and the truly crazy insanity of HAC-flavored southern style IFB

      Not even moderate enough to be aware that you are supposed to be mad at Northland “abandoning their fundamentalist roots”? Darrell you have truly found a nut in this guy.

  13. It’s so hard to keep up one’s own particular flavor of brainwashing when they are out from under one’s direct control. (hence the reason for so many Basement Bible Colleges that you see IFB churches starting) Control of information is vital if you are going to run a successful cult.

    This syllogism may help illustrate:

    Jesus said: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind;”

    Scripture says: “let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.”

    So then whatever is on the pastor’s (who is god’s self-anointed representative) mind, should be on the mind of all his sheeple as well.

    It is so hard to keep thier minds under the pastor’s control when the kids are not getting a steady diet from their own cult leader. Other’s will not nurture and mold them as their own pastor would.

    1. Exactly–it is about needing control. Every cult leader knows what’s best for everyone. At all times, places, and situations. The lyrics of a Tool song come to mind:

      Choices always were a problem for you
      What you need is someone strong to guide you
      Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow
      What you need is someone strong to use you
      Like me

    2. Dear Don:

      A controlling narrative combining fear, fallacies and emotionalism, with malediction and ostracism reserved for those who question: in the end, it amazes me how much control is exacted through so few tools.

      Christian Socialist

      1. Bonus points for using malediction, CS. The combination of “malediction and ostracism” is particularly euphonious.
        Don’t be surprised at the paucity of the weapons necessary to keep people in line. We are too likely to let our impulses for peace and approval drive us into erroneous and even reprehensible actions.

    3. …Yes, and remember; when preparing your turkey this Thanksgiving, be sure to remove its head before roasting, because “A MIND is a terrible thing to baste”.

  14. IFB, being a fear-based religion, is certain to create a “greatest fears” list. Just the nature of the beast. If it’s not fear of the wrong Bible college it’ll be fear of godless gov’t schools, the gay agenda, Obama, sexdrugsrocknroll, wimin showing their knees, picture shows, pool halls, perversions of the KJV, tv, NAACP, ACLU, Walt Disney, Proctor & Gamble, a-rabs, logic, reason, reality . . . . .

      1. Oops, no I missed it. You remembered their fear of black people being organized. Well done.

      2. Not afraid of the NAACP at all. I’d like to say that one of the black members of our church called me this morning and this comment is particularly upsetting to her. She may come on here later and post in my defense, she’s pretty fired up, so I apologize in advance if she takes her anger out on anyone on here ๐Ÿ™‚

        These are the types of comments I felt were very unfair.

        1. Pastor Kleitz–it should be obvious that my comment was not directed toward you necessarily, but toward a certain well-documented fundamentalist mindset. I have heard fundy pastors rail against everything in my half-humorous-half-serious list of fears. You may not fear the NAACP, but plenty of other fundy pastors do, and make no apologies for it. And if Bald Jones grad’s name has reference to the institution I think it does, he/she has all the more reason to appreciate the reference. At any rate, if that shoe doesn’t fit, you are more than welcome not to put it on.

          If the church member you speak of still wants to come on here to condemn me for my comment, I’ll do my best to entertain. But I also expect your church members who have been to Disney, watch Disney, have Disney paraphernalia, etc., to come and rake me over the coals for that comment as well! ๐Ÿ˜†

          ps–Thanks for your prayers and your apparent good nature. To update your prayer list, my real name is Jeff. Nico is a nickname (long story). I could always use more prayers.

        2. Pastor Mike Kleitz,

          The fact that there is a Christian woman in your church who is black, and who thinks highly enough of you to want to defend you, speaks well not only of you,but also the church you pastor. Unfortunately the NAACP comment didn’t come out of a vacuum.

          After getting saved in the military, I later wandered into an extreme IFB church and then ended up at HAC. In the 80’s there was a young man on our bus route who had an interest in the things of God.
          Somehow he heard about Hammond City Baptist Schools and he asked me about attending. Since his family didn’t have the money for him to go, I asked about scholarships. It turns out that the possibility of getting a scholarship existed not only for white students, but also for Latino students. Black prospective students, on the other hand, would have needed to be able to come up with the money on their own. Never told him that of course.

      1. Oooooo–that is pretty scary. Not as scary as someone listening to Carmen or using the Westscott & Hort, but still pretty scary.

  15. As a Pastor, one of my biggest fears and concerns is the Bible college my young people end up at.


    As a Pastor, one of my biggest fears and concerns is that my young people will end up at Bible college.

  16. 1. Why is “As a pastor,” even in his statement?

    2. His main concern should be that kids end up in Bible college, period. “Lord, protect our children from these mind-numbing, God hating, man exalting institutions (including Calvary Road Baptist Church).”

    3. This man means nothing to me.

  17. The part that gets me is that he leaves no allowance at all for 1) not going to college at all, and 2) going to a state university. Neither of those is on the radar at all. It is just “Bible colleges.” I looked into a “Bible college” to go to a few years back (to pacify my fundylite mom). No where had the major I was interested in. In fact, they all had tiny engineering programs. Even if they were accredited and had the proper testing, the output would still not be very prestigious.

    It is so sad to me that so many kids are funneled into thinking that the only college is a Bible college. State colleges will warp your mind and make you read Harry Potter (at least that’s a reason I heard many people give as to why they did not gain accreditation; I know, I know, they were just making crap up…)

    The saddest part is that this misinformation will continue until fundy-ism is dead. They will continue to not allow other places of higher learning into their chapel services. There will be no budging on that issue. By way of that, the kids will continue to think that they know where they want to go– Bible college. It truly saddens me that many will either never find the love and freedom we have in Christ, or it will take them at least another four years longer to do so.

  18. … And on the other wall is painted, “If you love the Lord, this church is not for you.”

    1. Ha! Love it!

      And on one sidewall is “If you were hoping that I would preach scripture in context and preach about Jesus, this church is not for you.”

        1. Hahaha, RobM–as long as a disembodied hand doesn’t appear and inscribe on the wall, mene mene tekel upharsin, which being translated, is: Mini-mini tinkle you foreskin. Or perhaps: You have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. The overall meaning is the same.

  19. I fear for any student who goes to an unaccredited bible college and enters this ugly job market as nothing more then glorified high school graduate.

    1. Worse yet, Mark. That person has wasted valuable time during which she or he could have been actually preparing to make a living, or have been making a living, saving for retirement.

  20. If Twitter & Facebook aren’t helping his fear, maybe he should delete his accounts.

    Just a thought.

  21. His first priority ought to be to go into the high place at the front of his temple and burn that pagan idol on the table. Then he could start worshiping the one true God..then maybe he would be worthy of having a discussion with on any other topic.

  22. I find it interesting that he is using Twitter to disparage Twitter. I suppose that he does not see that very delicious irony. ๐Ÿ˜

      1. Dear Liutgard:

        At least we know you’re not deliberately repeating yourself.

        On another note, I observe that IFB ‘churches’ …

        — Are odd
        — Are inscrutable
        — Proffer erroneous messages

        But don’t admit to ANY of those things.

        Christian Socialist

    1. I’ve been at places that did kk for $ reasons, but I suspect he’s just as focused on the imaginary liberalism as anything else. Life in fear and paranoia is crushing.

  23. I don’t understand what FB and Twitter have to do with it. Is he concerned about what the status updates and tweets coming out of some Bible colleges suggest about their theology and/or standards? Or does he not like the updates/tweets of young adults who are students of those schools, and therefore he believes those schools are at fault? Or is he concerned about what prospective students are posting about their future college plans?

    1. I am confused by that too now that you mention it. My best guess would be your second thought: that of the students posting “questionable things” or prospective students saying what they think. I think this cause mostly the colleges only post/tweet very very conservative/non-religious things. Either way, it still leaves some questions…

    2. I think he’s just using Twitter and FB to gather information. The concern isn’t with social media, but rather what he’s seeing from the students after going to (I assume) the Wrong Bible College. Or maybe it’s that they are not going to Bible college. Either way, I don’t think he’s blaming social media for anything, making him an unusual fundy.

    3. If they are on facebook or twitter,they may come in contact with one of the many ex-ifb survivor groups out there, or even a link to this blog. The internet is making it much harder for pastors to keep their students in the fundy bubble because they’re actually being told the other side of the story.

  24. When my son decided to go to Northland Bible College, I warned him about what he would be facing.

    He believed he could handle it. It was well recommended by the pastor of my IFB church. He had friends from Bible Camp (the Wilds) who recommended it.

    It took a year and a half, but he did come to see what I was warning him about. He didn’t finish his 4th semester — actually he didn’t get more than about a week into it.

    These schools do not treat their students as adults. To the administration, no matter how old they are, they are children without rights, bound to obey parents absolutely (even abusive ones). In fighting for the rights of a young lady whose parents were abusive, he found he was no longer welcome.

    It was a revelation.

    The astonishing thing about so-called “Christian education” is that they do not believe in education. They do not believe in inquiry. They *do* believe in special revelation, particularly by the MoGs. And you’d better believe that no matter what else might say differently.

    I will send my other children to secular colleges.

    1. rtgmath, that mirrors my own experience almost exactly. I left the first week into my fourth semester. My “Bible Institute” probably wouldn’t even be considered fundy by most people here, but I found it incredibly stifling. Anti-intellectual. Treated like children. Everything you said. I think of it as my time in elevated Sunday School, except we got no bubble gum for good behavior. That really pissed me off.

  25. Fundie Bible Colleges are for indoctrination not learning, growing, or thinking. God help you if you think a think that is not their think!

  26. I’m expecting any minute now to see a response on the reverend’s twitter account formatted as a letter by a dear contributor with the initials C.S. If you’ve been letterized, consider it an honor.

    1. That was a good response on his part and did not find it lacking in grace, though he did agree with most of the comments he read before he wrote his response.

      I was particularly understanding when I saw from the church website that he graduated from BBC in Springfield, MO. That is a KJVO school well indoctrinated in that vein of fundamentalism.

      I must say that if he did receive threatening and slanderous emails, that doesn’t say much for those that sent them. I would hope none of us did that.


        1. BBC was KJVO at one point but I don’t think they are now. He said he doesn’t recommend his alma mater, maybe that is why.

        2. That may very well be true. I’m thinking back to a missionary friend in West Germany back in the mid-80’s who was a graduate of BBC and a staunch Peter Ruckman supporter. That was 25 years ago, so things may have changed.

    2. Sounds like a thoroughly reasonable guy. Just has the usual issues with 140 characters cutting out all the context. I liked his reply and think he sounds like a decent pastor and person based on that reply. Kudos!

    3. I read his post and he seems like a pretty good guy. I mean, he didn’t get like some of the other people who have discovered they’ve been featured here. He had a calm coherent response and really tried to explain himself clearly, IMO. Good for him.

  27. Hey, New Albany, IN my hometown. I know where that church is, too. hopefully his kids are prepared to only work in fields that fundy colleges offer. God forbid they want to be a scientist

  28. lol nobody said they didn’t like her shirt, they said it was ironic he was speaking out about different colleges while she wore that shirt.

    If he’s concerned that sending his young people to a certain bible college means that they’ll learn the bible wrong, then they clearly have no critical thinking skills. He’s clearly failed them as a pastor.

  29. Everybody here has been riffing on the guy, but he was TRAINED to think that way by whatever bible college he graduated from…..Darrell has brought this up before that where a man goes to bible college is very important to his future life in the ministry (if he goes the Preacherboy route.)

    I feel sorry for the guy; he can’t see beyond the narrow world beaten into him at SomeDude HolyJoe Xtian University back in 1989.

  30. I appreciate the good dialogue I’ve received from my blog post. I would just like to re-iterate for those that keep insisting on making the same point over and over to me in emails. I recommend Bible College for those going into ministry. Of course I do, I’m not going to recommend a kid to UK who wants to be a Pastor. If a kid wants to be a lawyer, I would not recommend him to an unaccredited Bible college.

    I know that some of you on here will NEVER like me or respect my positions, that is fine, but I wrote a list of everyone on this comment section’s name (even though most are not real names I know there are real people behind those names) and I will be praying for each of you daily

    Pastor Kleitz

    1. Stick around, Mike. Put some feet to your prayers. Keep reading, keep praying for us, and you may (I hope) find that we respect you more, as you learn to respect some of the hard truths about pastors, churches, and visible Christianity that we discuss.

    2. First of all, kudos for responding. And for being an SEC fan.

      I disagree with automatically suggesting that prospective pastors, missionaries, etc. attend Bible college, especially right out of high school. If I had a son or daughter who was interested in ministry, I would suggest that he or she get a marketable degree (business, counseling, even a tech degree that would qualify them to be a plumber, electrician, or some such) from an accredited institution while interning at a local church. Then, after graduation, perhaps they could pursue a M.Div. Reason? Not too many people are going to hire a 22-year-old pastor, and, many churches can’t afford a full-time pastor. I’ve seen too many guys with Bible degrees having to work 2 or 3 jobs trying to support a family. Some of the best pastors I know have undergraduate degrees in engineering, education, or business. It seems to make them relate better to those in their congregation and gives them skills beyond sermon preparation and theology.

      1. I agree with this on several levels. A young fresh-out-of-Bible-college kid has no business being a senior pastor. Period. Let them season and mature working under a pastor as they learn the ropes and gain the experience that they’ll need to minister to the church.

        In today’s world, a pastor would do well to have a skill they can fall back on in case they leave the ministry for any reason. When our eldest was talking about being a pastor, we told him that he should consider getting a skill first before jumping into a career choice that could result in him stocking shelves at Walmart in his middle age. He has changed directions, but the advice is still wise. ๐Ÿ˜€

    3. Pastor Kleitz,

      I appreciate the tone of your responses; if the threats you’ve received were from any lunatics who frequent this site, then you have my apologies (and if anyone here is threatening people in any way over a vague tweet, then you are a lunatic).

      You and I will not agree over the KJV and other items, I’m sure; however, I respect your tone and willingness to amend certain statements. Too often, we have seen IFB pastors resort to invective, silence, Irish blessings, etc. when they are questioned regarding a particular statement or position (of course, if they are getting honest to goodness hate mail, then I guess I can see that). You, however, have come on here with a surprising approach; for that, I commend you.

      What you have at SFL is a group of people who have experienced the dark underbelly of Independent Fundamental Baptist churches. Many people here have witnessed sexual abuse in the IFB world, whether inflicted upon them or others close to them. Many have seen pastors behaving badly in numerous ways; we’ve seen cover-ups, a lack of accountability and disdain for both the law, the Bible and good sense. We’ve listened to bad exegesis and tortured renderings of the scriptures to support cultural preferences and personal vendettas. Some who have left an IFB church have lost family members and lifelong friends who are told to now shun them for leaving the “true” faith. And, of course, some of the people who have frequented this site over the years are just plain jerks.

      So, anyway, thank you for your gracious comments. I’d like to see you stick around and participate.

    4. Pastor Kleitz, some of the conclusions jumped to about the meaning of your Twitter entry provide a good illustration of why I’m no fan of Twitter.
      I don’t twit or chirp or whatever it’s called, and I don’t follow any Twitter streams.

      I just don’t think much that’s worth saying can be said in 147 characters, and it ultimately accelerates the modern trend toward shallow discourse as well as short attention spans.

      I don’t mean this as any criticism of you personally, just as a criticism of Twitter and similar phenomena.

  31. I’d also like to add that I took out the offending line in my blog about it being a โ€œhate groupโ€. The comments here have been much more civil then the first ones I received in my email. (plus, several of the ones who wrote the emails wrote me back and apologized and said that they had gotten caught up in emotion that triggered feelings they had toward a former pastor in their life. I accept their apology and will remove my comment)

    1. I saw a reference to you calling us a hate group and I didn’t go to the link because I didn’t want to deal with your ignorant hate-mongering. Get to know us, sir.

      We have been verbally, emotionally, and spiritually abused by fundamentalists — in the name of god, of course. Some of us have been physically and sexually abused as well. We don’t like fundamentalism. Some of us have families and friends who are deeply entrenched in the system. We have lost relationships, time, and money to this nasty outpost of religion. Some relationships will never be restored. Time and money will never come back.

      It’s impressive that you edited your post about us. Most fundy men of god just flame us and incite virtual riots over us.

    2. Do you agree with the philosophy of PCC, BJU, HAC, and other IFB colleges with regard to their treatment of young adults? Do you believe that having your peers ‘report’ you (again, as a young ADULT) for such innocuous crimes as leaving a tissue in the garbage can, listening to “unapproved” gospel music, or reading in bed after “lights out”?

      Sir, I served in the military for 10 years, and I understand the need for order and discipline, but if a shipmate “reported” another man in his unit, he could expect a Blanket Party thrown in his honor.

      Secondly, the purpose for strict rules in basic training is for the purpose of removing the notion of “me”, and uniting disparate people into a homogenous unit for the purpose of uniformity and chain of command in battle. Conversely, our Lord seeks individuals with unique gifts and callings for personal relationships with Him. As Christians, we are one body in Christ, each retaining our God – given personalities, insights, and duties as we serve our integral roles. The IFB Bible College regimen, on the other hand, effectively forces all it’s students into one mold. And many conform (outwardly), while others learn to be oppressive enforcers of rules.

      Do you see this as an accurate analysis? If not, please share…

      Thank you

      1. I can’t speak for those colleges, as I really don’t have much experience with them. The college I went to had rules but I never felt they were super intrusive. I wouldn’t say I’d support reporting your fellow students for every little thing, no. I understand the need in major infractions (drug use, illegal activity, sexual immorality).

    3. Sir, you retweeted the following, “A pastor who will not pull a lamb away from a cliff or build a fence to protect from predators of the lambs FLESH should resign yesterday” and if you are meaning protecting children from abuse (rather than simply protecting them from imagined spiritual dangers like girls wearing trousers or listening to the wrong type of christian music) then I respect you for that.

      But then you link to WCBC on your church’s web page. The president of WCBC, Paul Chappell, has clearly supported his brother Mark in his return to pastoring despite Mark’s having allegedly admitted to ‘having an affair’ (ie sexual abuse) with underaged girls at a previous church that he was removed from. How do you reconcile these ideas? Did you not know of Paul’s alleged support for sexual predators in the pulpit, or do you support such men and your retweeting the previously mentioned tweet mean something completely different?

      1. I have never seen Paul Chappell support his brother, Mark. I’ve never seen him allow him to preach at his church or college (whereas he has allowed his brother Stephen) If I were to see that, I’d most certainly take the link off of our site. I will be honest though in saying that I’m in Indiana and WCBC is very far away, so it’s possible that he has allowed and promoted his brother, Mark. But I’ve never seen that.

        1. Thank you for that response. My old IFB pastor used his position as a counselor to manipulate victims of abuse into not reporting their abuse to the police. So this is an issue that has cause me much pain.

    4. I feel I must personally apologize. It is just that what I read in that <140 character comment got me riled up. It just strikes close to home. Me not going to a Bible college has in a way made me a black sheep in my hometown. I rarely can talk to plold friends from HS as they could get in trouble for it, and everyone in leadership still sees me as a rebel even though I want to follow God.

      Also, my brother is about to make a college decision, and I guess it just scares me that he will give in to all the "godly" peer pressure to obtain a non-ministerial degree from an unaccredited Bible college. I love him, and just don't want to

      All said, I apologize for my disparaging remarks, and hope you forgive my speaking without knowing what you meant.

      While I am at it, I also have to thank you for keeping your cool and responding in a calm, collected manner. Much more respectable and conversational than just about anyone else who has been featured here. You have addressed each point well feom your standpoint and tried to see our aide of things.


      1. Edits: (it is impossible to type on this tiny screen.)
        *Old friends not plold friends.
        *don’t want to see him mess up his life.
        *side of things not aide of things

      2. I understand and have seen that myself. In my 7 years as pastor here at CRBC, we’ve had 2 kids go to Bible College and about 15 go to secular college. I do not push kids in that direction, in fact I tell them I’ll be just as proud of them if they end up a trash man, if a trash man is what God wants them to be. I don’t want them going into ministry if that’s not God’s will for them, they and everyone around them will be miserable.

        1. Ministry is for all believers. The problem with the clergy/laity distinction is that it is nowhere found in Scripture. It elevates a group as a class above the rest. All believers are gifted by the Holy Spirit to minister to each other to the building of of the saints. The measure is according to His good pleasure. Where in Scripture to you find a class of clergy doing the work of the ministry?

        2. Where in the New Testament? Well, there are different gifts. Pastors and Teachers are a recognized group. So are elders or bishops.

          In the Old Testament, there were priests doing “the ministry.” Evidently God didn’t have a problem with that.

        3. The problem is that no one gets past Ephesians 4:11 to see what the gifts of evangelism, preaching/teaching and such were for… “to equip the saints for the work of ministry,** for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.”

          **emphasis mine

    1. You definitely get respect points for your responses here.

      But by self-identifying as a Pastor (in my book at least) you begin with a deficit. A humble man of God is as rare in the pulpit as an Arizona Snow in July. (see Corruption : ) Especially in administrations where there is not a multiplicity of elders. (and deacons are not elders) The rule is that the vast majority of those in the position of pastor believe that the office they hold sanctifies them and makes them more of a saint than the ones they rule over.
      They also use the term “rule over” to actually rule over all aspects of the lives of their sheeple. If you read on here long enough you will see that one of the themes I constantly return to is the fact that molst single rule pastorates never get beyond Ephesians 4:11. They love to point out the offices… but they never finish the passage and actually practice what the gifts God has given are to be used for. The general rule is, the Ministry = the Pastor. Not at all what Ephesians 4 is talking about but that is what is practiced in most, (I’ll go out on a limb here and say “the vast majority of”) churches.

      The paid professional in the pulpit jealously guards his position (and his paycheck) by making it seem that he is indespensible and that he holds more authority than scripture actually allows. Now, why would I say that? Just look around, how many pastors are willing to talk with one another (unless they are in the same denomination, camp, or from the same school)? The meanest paid pastor in the smallest of congregations will not come together with other pastors to build the body of Christ by maybe combining congregations in an area, no… they must retain control over their flock.

      I’ll dismount my soap-box now.
      Just wanted to let you know I am probably one of the most cynical, anti-establishment, anti-dictator-in-the-pupit types on SFL. But you do get rep points for your responses.

      So, stick around, and get to know us. We are a rather eclectic group of folks on a journey together.

    2. My former pastor, who I truly believe is one of the “good ones,” would also probably say that he’d do all he could to protect kids from abuse. And today, that may well be true. I don’t really know.

      I only know that many years ago, my sister and I went to him for help. We’d had a healthy fear of the outside world instilled in us, and we honestly had nowhere else to turn. But we wanted the beatings to stop. We wanted no more broken noses, no more “choking” incidents, no more middle-of-the-night attacks: We just wanted to be able to live without fear.

      So we went to our pastor, a man we respected and trusted. He told us, “Well, I’m sorry. I have to say that I’ve suspected something was going on.” And then he told us he’d pray about it to decide what to do.

      What he decided to do turned out to be going to our abuser to relate what we’d told him. What followed was some of the worst abuse we’d ever experienced, in retribution for our actions.

      Shortly after that, I went to my youth pastor, desperate. I told him I didn’t want to live anymore. My youth pastor — also a good man and also someone who’d probably say he’d do anything to protect kids — told me, “But you have so much to live for!”

      At the time, I had nothing to live for. And at the time, death really would have been the only escape. Death, or time.

      I’m free now. But my past will forever haunt me.

      If any child ever comes to you to tell of abuse, the right thing to do is not the Bible thing — to take it to the accused. The right thing to do is to take it to the authorities. The police. CPS. Get it out of the church and into the hands of those who really can help.

      I’m sorry people sent you hate mail. It was stupid and childish and pointless. But truly, there are far worse things than which Bible college a child goes to that you could worry about. Some kids just have to worry about getting through another day.

      1. I am so sorry that you went through all of that. Unfortunately I have had to deal with being in that situation as a child too. And as a pastor, I have and will, do everything I can to protect children.

        Again, I didn’t say this (bible college) is my biggest or only fear. But it is ONE of the biggest. Where a pastor goes to college many times will dictate how his future ministry will carry out. Many lives will be affected by his choice in where to attend.

        1. “Where a pastor goes to college many times will dictate how his future ministry will carry out. Many lives will be affected by his choice in where to attend.”

          This I agree with. I think we only need to look at HAC and how many graduates have descended into some of the most evil sins to know that.

          I honestly think most young people would do best to go to a regular school — either community college or 4-yr university — to get a usable degree in something. Someone mentioned counseling, and I think that would be a good choice. And then go to Bible college if they want to pastor. For many reasons, not the least of which that it would give them more experiences and more depth. They would not simply be parroting what they’ve learned in Bible college but have grown roots to their beliefs.

    3. Pastor Mike,

      I have read your comments here, but one thing about you is still very troubling to me…how can you live in the middle of B10 country (Indiana, correct?) and represent for the SEC? This gives me pause…

      Bro Bluto

        1. Pastor Mike,

          You are excused. I was once very serious with a young lady from Kentucky (she went to UofL) so I have seen their charm up close and personal…it is more than mortal men can resist.

          Pardon me, but all that reminiscing makes me want to go have a mint julep.

          With Kind Regards,
          Bro Bluto

  32. I fear for any one graduating from an unaccredited college in this ugly job market. Heck, I fear from any one graduating from a real college in this economy.

    An article of HuffPost noted that about 4,000 churches in the USA close each year. The Southern Baptist Convention might have to close 1/3 of its churches in the next 25 years. The problem is probably just as bad in the IFB. Yet IBF colleges keep turning out preacher boys when there are fewer churches that need them. Where I live I know of at least three IFB churches that have closed in the last 10 years, and two other IFB churches that are talking about merging. (And this does not count the few house churches I know about)
    My old IFB church is in trouble, in the 1970โ€™s that parking lot was full, cars were even parked on the side of the road. Two months ago I drove by on the Sunday morning and there were only 25 cars in the parking lot.

    1. I agree, Mark.

      One of the problems, I believe, is the exaltation of “full-time ministry” in IFB circles. You are seen as holier than others, as more dedicated to God, as more spiritual, if you give you life to full-time service. You are first challenged (“anyone who wants to be a pastor, pastor’s wife, missionary, or Christian school teacher, please stand”), then celebrated and honored. Serious (yet naive) young people who truly want to live for God often are led to believe that the best way to prove that is to go into full-time ministry. And fundy colleges keep pouring more and more of these graduates out and there aren’t enough churches to support them, and without other training, the graduates are stuck without good jobs to support their families.

      Worse, they join another church as an assistant pastor, cause strife, and then there is a church split, or they establish a second church very near an already-established church and start “sheep stealing.”

      1. I can remember in my fundie high school there was always a debate on whether one could train for a secular job and still be a good Christian. Most of my teachers who were from either PCC or BJU believe that 100% of the students should attend a โ€œbibleโ€ college and serve the lord full time. (Yet somehow military service was acceptable.) My nephew is at a โ€œChristianโ€ school that is in the PCC non-network network and he is being told on the regular basis if he is truly a good Christian he would go to PCC and not the local community college.

        1. Full time ministry or else military service? Sounds like the focus is to send people into the afterlife one way or another.

  33. I was just thinking along the same lines as Mark- there’s a serious numbers problem here.

    One of the problems in the Liberal Arts right now is that we’re putting out many more PhDs than we have appropriate jobs for. A few end up as Assistant profs, and eventually into tenure track positions, but they are very few. More likely they end up working as adjuncts (a bizarre sort of academic slavery), tutors, public school teachers (if there’s openings- with cutbacks there usually aren’t), or leaving the field altogether. I know some highly educated baristas. And one of my classmates, a brilliant man with a terrifyingly sharp mind, drives a truck for UPS. (A particular waste. He truly was amazing. I was in Medieval Canon and Marriage Law with him, and I was against him once in our practice court scenarios- I was usually very good at them, but he rolled right over me. Even our professor, a Dominican with a steel trap brain, was impressed.)

    Likewise, I fear that a generation of young men will spend a great deal of time, energy, and money, only to find no jobs when the get out of school, and no useable diploma and skills. And we do them a disservice to encourage them that direction.

    Secondly, the remark about the parking lot is indicative of a deeper problem. Finding out why people are leaving, and making changes to address those issues, are of paramount importance. If that doesn’t happen, the churches will die.

    1. I’ll take this one step further…there are too many people in college, period. Not every job requires a college degree. Take the building trades for example…I am 100% convinced that there is a large segment of males in college right now that would be much better served learning a trade rather than trying to slog through more school. What ends up happening is that these people are not suited for “managerial/professional” careers, but now have the added burden of $100k+ in student loans to deal with as they try to find a job.

      1. Yep. One of my brothers stuck out a couple years in college before joining the Army, where he is now a decorated and medaled heavy infantry vet (SAW gunner). He did landscaping and plumbing before/during college, so it seemed pretty clear that he was a “work with your hands” kind of guy. I’m just glad he found a rewarding career that fits who he is as a person.

    2. It takes a very sharp mind to drive a UPS truck. It may not require college, but they have to be smart. They need an amazing amount of memory to juggle routes and addresses, when people are home, etc.

    3. Just as America has a military-industrial complex, it also has an educational-industrial complex. Its sole purpose is to force as many people a possible to attend college and keep them are long a possible. The colleges, text book publishers, financial institutions that provide student loans, etcโ€ฆ are raking in millions at the expense of many young people who will be stuck with useless degrees and massive student loan dept.
      Part of the scam is academic inflation that one is required to have more education for jobs that use to require less. Now used-car salesmen are required to have college degrees and public school teachers are required to get a master degree with they want to keep their jobs. Someday someone will need a Phd to work at Starbucks.
      Requiring college degrees for some jobs is discrimination.

  34. I went to BJU. While I am not eager to send my children there today, I can say that it was a right choice for me at the time.

    Where was I on the fundiness scale? Well, envision a fundy scale where BJU is about a 5 and Pensacola is about a 10. I was on the order of 12 or so.

    (By the way, Darrell, we need to talk about creating a Fundiness scale. It sounds like a fun task and could be a great conversation starter!)

    So, being so far out on the fundy scale, I found BJU quite liberal. My parents thought so! They were upset after the first year when I said I no longer believed in KJV-only. After marrying a girl they had no choice or say about, reading from a NASV Bible, and other items, they pretty much disowned me. Doctrine is thicker than blood, you know.

    I did 5 years of undergrad (in six years) and 2 years of grad school before going to Clemson as a TA.

    And BJU *did* help move me in a more liberal direction. I learned how to ask questions, even if I didn’t ask them out loud. I learned how to question what I believe and accept evidence that required a change in belief.

    And it kept going, long after I left BJU. I am proud of my Alma Mater for helping to make me the liberal I am today!

      1. Even back in my day, BJU let girls wear pants in the dorms and at gym class (as long as we walked to the gym the back way). At PCC it was ONLY culottes. I don’t think they were even allowed to wear pants in the girls’ dormitory hallways! And of course now PCC is KJV-only. Those two things should up them way up on the fundiness scale.

        Their music may be SLIGHTLY more lively than BJU’s but not much. Plus BJU does all those “worldly” plays and operas which keeps them on the “not so extreme fundy that anything not published by a Baptist is considered evil” part of the scale.

  35. Really? That is one of your biggest fears? It must be nice to have so few worries.

    I’ve heard of “white people’s problems” and “rich people’s problems,” so I guess there is such a thing as “Fundamentalist Baptist problems.”

    You could make a new post about that, and have people write in suggestions.

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