According to today’s website pick there are ” 932 counties in the United States that do not have a solid, fundamental, independent, King James only, Baptist preaching church.” So in order to help this situation they’re picking the top 100 counties to launch new soulwinning efforts. You can even view state maps to see exactly how desperately your county needs a fundy curch.
It’s interesting that there seems to be a total inability to realize that the issue with church growth isn’t the lack of salesmanship but the product they’re selling.
309 thoughts on “FWOTW: BSALT.org”
I’m always confused by stuff like this. Are they saying that non-KJV’ers and Calvinists aren’t saved or don’t preach the correct gospel? They never come out and say it, but is that the implication? Otherwise why not focus on an area with no churches at all?
It may not be very explicit, but I think if you asked them they would gladly tell you that non KJVO are probably not saved in their opinion, and certainly not Calvinists.
How can someone question another’s salvation when they preach an easy believism gospel anyways. By that standard, everyone who has believed in Christ and said a prayer is saved, IFB or not.
This is curious. As I recall, John Calvin was the first to describe the theory of vicarious atonement.
Logic and Facts do not apply to IFB dogma. IFB dogma is solely based on faith… faith that what the M-O-g breathes from the pulpit is gospel true. If the M-O-g tells you someone isn’t saved… you can take it to IFBankof’Merica that it’s so.
“So sayeth the Shepherd!”
“So sayeth the flock!”
And all the M-o-g’s people said?
vicarious/substitutionary atonement has a number of variants whether irresistable grace or prevenient grace, etc. IDK who all invented what, and I know there are differences between that & ransom atonement, etc. I personally don’t think anyone really has it “nailed down pat”, but lean more towards Arminian understanding.
Amusingly whatever version of atonement you take it generally includes resurrection as part of, with the IFB exception where cross atones, resurrection = a rapture, horay! Potluck for everyone!
I have heard people say they don’t believe you can get saved out of another version, since it isn’t God’s Word.
I asked one of them if he was sharing the Gospel but didn’t have a Bible and missed a word when he quoted a verse, could that person be saved?
The saddest part of that was his answer. He said, “I don’t know. I never thought of that.”
Like RodM stated, many of them don’t believe anyone that doesn’t believe like them could be truly saved. I was in a ministry like this for many years. I doubted the salvation of a lot of very Godly folks, because of their music and dress.
Jack Hyles stated this in his Soul-Winning book in the chapters “Enemies of Soul-Winning”
That puts Bible translations right up there with dogs and babies as obstacles to soul-winning. 🙄
Let’s not forget cell phones. 😉
RobM–sorry George (Don?) changed your name.
I knew who you were talking to.
‘…since it isn’t God’s Word.’
Some day, I’ll have to visit a KJVO outpost, get my face about 1/4 inch from the head honcho, and ask: ‘… with judgment day honesty … are you prepared to stand before God Almighty … and instruct Yahweh to swear that these words [any other translation] … did not proceed from the mouth of the Lord.’
This could be followed by pointing out that blasphemers will not inherit the kingdom.
Fine if folk want to use the KJV; but as soon as you try to bind the conscience of others to follow YOUR rule, you cross the line.
Please video this! Darrell is always happy to post reader generated content! 🙂
Mr. Socialist, I would be happy to join you. I know my Dad has challenged some of his KJVO friends who say such about other translations. His statement is to the effect that he would be troubled to say an honest translation is not God’s Word. It is usually met with a mumbled response and an end to the discussion.
I had a very close relative who was KJVO (whose stance has softened since) begin to quote a verse to defend the KJV. The look on his face when I told him the same verse was in all of my various translations was priceless. He admitted that he had never considered that. Just this morning we were talking, and I learned that while he still feels the King James is best, he won’t put down the others and will now call them God’s Word. He even gets annoyed when he sees 1611 on a sign.
So, there is hope for those willing to discuss and learn.
To make a long post longer– I have asked people who insist the KJV wording is the only true wording to explain why OT quotations in the NT don’t use the same words. Most of the answers would be amusing if there was not so much ignorance involved. (Aw, they’re still amusing) When you point out that Jesus quoted from a translation (The Septuagint) when he could have spoken the exact Hebrew words, you get a deer-in-the-headlights look.
I came from a family totally devoted the KJVO theology. So I went to BJU and learned differently. (See, even BJU is liberal in some areas!)
So, I marry my sweetheart and we go across country to stay at my folk’s place for a couple of months. After all, they hadn’t had a chance to get to know the girl I married.
My wife had given me a NASB version as a wedding present. I loved it. And when my sister saw me reading it, she called me a heretic.
So I asked why, and she said that the other versions were perversions, leading people to damnation by leaving out critical words. So I asked her to compare. Get her KJV, read the text. Then I would read the NASB version.
She got her Bible. She read the verse. Her literature said that it left out a certain phrase. So I read the same verse in the NASB, and sure enough, that phrase wasn’t there! It was stated in a much clearer fashion. The meanings were identical.
When I pointed that out, she ran off screaming that I was trying to destroy her faith.
Needless to say, things went downhill between me and my family from that point. I consider that I got the better part of the bargain with my wife!
“… Jesus quoted from a translation (The Septuagint) when he could have spoken the exact Hebrew words …”
How is that possible when we all know that Jesus spoke only English? 😛
Big Gary has a good point. My KJV has red letters all in English, not Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic.
If we’re thinking accuracy, the Aramaic family of texts is probably the way to go. Unlike the case of the church in the West, Aramaic really hasn’t changed.
Don, the most interesting part of Jesus’ use of English is how He skipped over so many years to Middle English. My theory of that it is so it would include the Francia, Saxon, Norman, and Scandinavian (among many smaller contributors) influences so that we would know English is the proper biblical language due to the inclusion of so many other languages in it’s development. Since so many languages have had words made into English, it must be an easy language for anyone to learn and understand.
*******Big Gary, not Don.
I cannot blame George. I was reading comments on two different threads and confused myself.
Sorry, guys. My sincerest apologies.
You definitely need to apologize to BG for that one. 😉
So, does that mean the apostles weren’t saved?
They didn’t even have the Bible as we know it, let alone the KJV. When the earliest Christian martyrs met their fate, most of the New Testament hadn’t even been written yet, let alone accepted into the Canon.
The Canon of the Bible was not established until the Councils of Carthage and Hippo in the fourth century. Eusebius relates that, in his day, there was still a lot of debate over which books to include. (E.g., some bishops had misgivings about the Apocalypse a/k/a Book of Revelation.)
So, were the apostles unsaved? Or did God make special provision for them, as they lived before there was a KJV?
Were all those people — even the alleged crypto-Baptists — who lived before the publication of the KJV unsaved reprobates? What about Hus and Wycliffe? Heck, what about the continental Reformers, including the Anabaptists? Were they all doomed because they didn’t use the KJV?
Don’t you just love historical illiteracy? 😀
Many fundies have trouble explaining the salvation of early martyrs. I’ve had to relearn a lot of early church history.
A quote that appeared on Facebook:
“The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum” -Noam Chomsky
As a kid I loved this kind of stuff. I twas fun to plot as to how to take over a country so this map and strategy would have sparked my imagination. My county is in red but the county below me is in the top one hundred; that county has maybe under ten thousand people? I think it was chosen as a “focal point” for the surrounding area.
According to this my county has too many churches. It has 2 and only needs one. They list the gospel rate at .8 years. I still haven’t had anyone come to my door, stop me on the street, or put literature on my vehicle. Come on, get with it people.
It’s nice to know that the Great Commission has been properly systematized. Now I know that my neighbor is only a person who lives in the same county I do. Because, you know, political lines on a map, that’s what God respects. From another county? Not my problem. You count towards your own county’s churches’ quota.
Still, I think if they’d only include a list as to what churches “count” in each area, this site would be providing a valuable service: It’d be telling me which churches I can afford to skip if I move and start looking for a new church. 😎
Apparently, people who live in the states with the coldest weather are all hell-bound. Someone should probably tell God! I wonder why He hasn’t called any true Bible believers to start KJV non-calvinistic churches there? I can rest easy, though, knowing that my state, WV, is doing well. That’s why we’re “almost Heaven.” Plenty of KJVers to spread the true non-calvinistic gospel. 🙄
Hey, Maricopa County (Phoenix) is in the top 10 counties in need of more churches. Wonder if Steven Anderson ever saw that website?
By BSALT reckoning (1 church per 10,000 people), I guess Anderson should have ten thousand members in his church by now.
Perish the thought! That’s scary!!! 😯
I can tell you that their information for WV us woefully incorrect.
It’s woefully incorrect from the premise to the givens, to the actual numbers plugged into the woeful formulas.
What’s incorrect about it? Are you saying we actually need more IFB churches? I don’t think so… I think we have plenty.
First thing that sticks out to me, is he’s appears to be using from checking a few counties, population figures (estimates) from 2009. Estimates 9 years after a census is as inaccurate as population numbers can get. I would assume he did this in 2009, but if you want to be taken seriously you need to update your numbers to at LEAST the most current census.
I agree his methodology needs work.
However, the population of West Virginia barely changed from 1990-2010. Other than Mon, Jefferson, and Berkeley counties, I wouldn’t anticipate any surprises.
I’m more interested in how he defines IFB? There are plenty of churches that have drifted from the ABC and are independent and use the KJB, but are not IFB in any meaningful sense.
Nope. I’m not even ifb. Just saying that I know his numbers are wrong, and at a glance at least two of the counties that supposedly don’t have a KJVO, non-Calvanist [sic] church do have them (Grant and Webster).
I think he’s relying on people to contact him and inform him they fundy churches exist. Self reporting is an accuracy disaster. I’m certain he’s capriciously filtering out fundy churches based on a number of unstated qualifications as well.
I think it is some guy basically setting himself up as fundy gatekeeper for the USA on this site/map.
Scenario is that any pastor offended has to contact and prove his bona fides with this goofball to get added to the map/acknowledged to exist.
Would your garden variety fundy lite paster be offended at being dis-included enough to fill out this fellow’s questionnaire?
Yes, I know Webster has one. No idea about Grant but it’s hard to imagine there’s not some formerly-ABC Baptist church tucked away somewhere that fits the bill. However, they could very well not be associated with the IFB movement.
I think the information on this website would be pretty surprising to some Fundies I know. 😀
There is sooo much wrong with this paragraph that I will let it speak for itself:
This is the poison that infects my soul. The very title sets my teeth on edge these days. If someone introduces themselves to me as a preacher or a pastor I immediately go to battle stations and a shields up posture. The only thing in my mind that is worse then a “Pastor” is…. mmmm there is nothing worse than a “pastor” ok.. pedophiles are worse but even then it is a “Gray” area.
I know that there are some good, God fearing, decent men who hold that title; but to me they are lumped in with the Schaaps, the Sundays, the Kidds, the Jones, (Jim Jones) the Jimmy Bakers, the Creflo Dollars, the Benny Hinns and all the rest. Just because someone calls themselves to preach doesn’t mean they are what the Scripture declares a pastor to be.
I know some will think less of me for saying so but anyone who introduces himself to me as a Pastor has dug himself a hole he will have to work his way out of. I don’t trust anyone who holds that position any further than I can pick the church building up and throw it. I assume they are a con artist of the first degree and they have their own personal agenda which they are trying to push on anyone who sits under “the sound of their voice.” **
Then there’s the “God will bless the pastor’s efforts”… as if the church is the pastor. But then that is how the IFB and many other single ruler template church administrations present, “the way church ought to be practiced.” The church = the Pastor. The cult of personality rules the day.
I saw that this past Sunday. Usually by the time we arrive there isn’t a parking space to be found anywhere near the building. This Week the Preaching/”Pastor” elder… whatever they call him was out of the country preaching, in Italy. Parking spaces were abundant. Why? The cult of personality of course. The Pastor is the church. So… is that really “church?” I just don’t know anymore.
** yeah, some days the bitterness does surface and I have to get it out. I have yet to see one (a pastor) who actually is a worker who loves the people more than he loves their money. I have yet to see one who does not revel in the power and the limelight of the position, even when they testifying about how humbled they are and how much they have suffered in the position they seem to me to be doing it out of false humility, wearing their suffering as though it were a badge of honor that places them over everyone else, earned sanctimony if you will.
*sigh* I’ve been completely out of the cult for 3 years now and it still affects me like this at times. The pastor elevation/worship is one of the worst triggers for me.
That’s a truly amazingly repugnant policy! I saw it early on, and I think it’s posted in at least 2 places. We will not accept any support from individuals, you must have your pastor’s permission & allow him to decide & guide you.
You don’t know the darkness in my soul that kind of thinking touches. One may as well post a disclaimer that in order to be on their site one should have permission from their Cult-Leader. 😡
I’m sorry. I shouldn’t have posted all of that. I should have just left well enough alone and let the paragraph “speak for itself,” like I said to begin with.
Disregard all the rest and scroll along.
I’m glad you posted it, Lord Don. My fiancee told me about a year ago that, any more, she flinches when she hears the word “pastor”. I’m in nearly the same place. (And I hope her pastor sees this comment, and I hope it shakes him to his core.)
I get discouraged by the subtle condescension, the shutting down of people who ask unapproved questions, …I could go on, but I’d just reiterate what you posted.
I actually went to church about 5 Sundays out of the last 7 or 8 weeks, and it was the most I’ve been able to do in a long time. Some weeks, just thinking of going to anything is enough to put me back in bed in a fetal position for a few hours. I think it’s going to be a while before I go back to anything but maybe a Catholic or Orthodox church.
I don’t see a problem with what you wrote. I have to say it mirrors a lot of my own feelings.
Some things have to be said. Fundamentalism’s cultish ways are destructive, and a lot of us have been seriously hurt.
One doesn’t go into a hospital and tell a patient, “You aren’t healing fast enough! You must have something wrong with your attitude! If you really wanted to get well you could just get right out of that hospital bed and go back to work!”
It is ridiculous, right?
So then, why do people think that emotional and spiritual wounds are all that much different? Why do we pretend that people can just bounce back from grievous emotional assaults?
I would have liked to have been “healed” from the wounds fundamentalism has inflicted on me. It hasn’t happened. It isn’t that I like the bitterness, want to hold onto it, hate God, or even really hate the people. It isn’t that I haven’t prayed to “let go” of it. It isn’t that I am rebelling against God.
I still struggle. I see their attitudes still in my family. I see how they treat others. And people I once trusted turned out to be untrustworthy.
So please, don’t feel like you have to be quiet. Truth matters. And you told it.
I agree with what you said as well. In addition to pastors I would add anyone that wears their religion on their sleeve. Fundy, pentecostal or whatever, I learned from experience – stay away.
@Don, No apologies needed. I feel the same way. Nothing gets me upset faster then a guy who refers to himself as Pastor So and So. It’s is as if they are making themselves better and holier than everyone else around them by introducing themselves as Pastor. Pharisee instantly comes to my mind.
We refuse to attend a church where the pastor holds himself in high regard. Perhaps that is why we have yet to find a church home for the past 4 yrs. We did attend a non denomination church before our move from WA to Missouri. The pastor there would insist on NOT being called Pastor. He was truly humble and never put on holier than thou airs. Not once. He was/is a rare man in deed. We have now found a small church in our tiny little town where the pastor is much the same. He is called by his first name, is extremely humble & a very good expository preacher like our WA pastor.
I find it interesting that both men are NOT college graduates. They are just two normal guy who have amazing stories of how they became pastors of elder lead churches. They both are simple men who have a love for God that is evident in their lives.
Another thing they both have in common is it is not beneath them to do manual labor around the church. Just the other day I drove past the new church and saw the pastor mowing the lawn. The lawn is a good acre if not more. It is my experience that if, and that’s a big IF, a fundy pastor did any kind of manual labor around the church you’d be sure to hear about it in his next sermon/lecture. 😯
BTW, I clicked a Sam Gipp link you posted once. The one about how to behave in church. What he said about pastors being better then the rest of us made me sick for days. You’re right, he is full of Bull Gipp! 👿
I hear you. I really do. “Evangelist” does the same thing to me, too. I’ve known a number of pastors in my time, and the percentage of truly decent men is far too low. I can think of two offhand, actually. It’s sad.
Don, no need to apologize. I think most of us here can’t stand christ-followers and their ilk. You’re among friends. Don’t apologize for anything!
“God will, without a doubt, bless your* efforts.”
“*read: The Pastor’s efforts”
So the ruler of this web site claims control over what God blesses?
That strikes me as a pretty high level of arrogance.
A Catholic theologian once made a comment: “We Catholics have one Pope and he is in the Vatican. You Protestants have a Pope in Every Pulpit.”
Wow! There’s not a church in my county. (Well, supposedly-not a “real, Bible-believing Church.) Boy, the whole state looks like fertile ground for a big old mission field.
We have boatloads of churches, about 1 for every 100 people. Lots of them are very conservative…
What about Northern Ireland? That’s where I have lived all my life. Am I really saved? Assuming that churches that come under the Title “Independent Fundamentalist Baptists” are in the United states, are there any Real Saved Christians outside of that Country?
America is God’s Country. He can keep it.
My area is in the yellow. If it gets worse I can go either a few miles north or south where there are large stretches of red.
” 932 counties in the United States that do not have a solid, fundamental, independent, King James only, Baptist preaching church.”
Wow. I thought Christians were supposed to preach Christ, not independent Baptist fundyism.
And when did God decide that the English language was superior to the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic that the Scriptures were written in? God must have made a mistake in all that, I suppose.
The arrogance of such statements leaves me sick to my stomach. “I thank God we are not like other churches!”
Practically my whole state is red and yellow.
My county doesn’t currently have an IFB church in it. Maybe it has something to do with the large number of people who were hurt because of the former IFB churches that no longer exist.
I know I’m “preaching to the choir,” but this website offends me in so many ways. The arrogance, the assumptions, even the dumbing down of God. God only speaks 1611 English. God is a Baptist. Etc., etc., etc.
When I was questioning my faith as a teenager, my father bought me a Good News for Modern Man NT (the one that looked like a newspaper on the outside). I read it “religiously ” (no pun intended). I would never have read the KJV like that – I didn’t understand it!
Maybe these people need a sheet carrying different versions of the Word to descend from Heaven and hear God speak to them.
Agree, but I think I heard God only speaks in the 1789 version now, its the new original.
Shhh…don’t tell my ex-pastor that!
Not reading through all the comments before – did anyone else realize that it shouldn’t be BSALT but rather BS SALT?
The numbers they posted for my county are BS – I did my dissertation on the negative effects of Fundamentalism on Rural Economy and drove every street in my county and our neighboring county counting churches and meeting with MoG’s, the numbers are staggering at how many of these tiny cults litter the countryside.
Yes, I did notice that. Maybe the same person who thought “BLIGHT” would be bad realized that “BSSALT” would also be bad.
Mike– any chance of you sharing that dissertation with the rest of us?
Please share that dissertation! 😛
I’m in one of the top 10 counties they’re working on. I think I’m going to start a border patrol.
If it’s to keep them from getting out, I’ll donate to your efforts.
If this goes regional or national, I may have to go get me a FOID & CC permits and acquire a rifle! : )
I wonder if the Sword of the Lord and Bill Rice Ranch would be dismayed to find out that their home county (Rutherford Co. in Tennessee) is listed as yellow.
Seriously. I just clicked on the state of Tennessee. If there’s anything Knox County doesn’t need, it’s another church of any kind let alone IFB. It’s beginning to reek of the “we’re going to do this better than you” syndrome down here. I hate to say this, but it almost makes me upset to see a start-up church in a school gym or otherwise around here. We don’t need another church. Just go to one that’s already here and make it better. Sorry, just a pet peeve.
Too late, you’re slated for 18 more unless you get him to agree that you have enough. 🙂
Ever get the feeling that a lot of the start-up churches are started by laid off workers who can’t get another job? Looking for someone else to give you money can sure sound like “the Lawd is a callin me ta preech!”
I’m glad to see that Greenville County, SC is deemed to have “enough churches,” seeing it’s the home of BJU, Tabernacle Baptist College and various and sundry schools, Holmes College, Furman (oops, former SBC school!), and more “fundamental” churches per capita than mobile homes.
BJU wouldn’t be counted as a solid fundamental church. They aren’t KJVO, they don’t count.
Furman CERTAINLY wouldn’t count. But I’m sure Mothership Tabernacle makes up for it.
Stay out of Hennepin County!! 👿
God has been merciful to those 932 counties. May His face shine upon the rest that have been inflicted and affected by these viruses and poison.
Here is an interesting reflection on your churches.
Question: Who do these people think they’re going to reach? Not the educated; they could see right through all the anti-intellectual nonsense. Not the aesthetically-inclined; they couldn’t stand the bad music, the unimaginative worship, the lack of any appreciation for beauty. Not teens or young adults; these churches are like they’re from a 1950s time warp. Not women; the wider culture is long past the day when women regarded themselves as having to be submissive or subservient to men.
So who’s left? My guess is that it must be people who like to be browbeaten, people who lack the capacity for critical thinking, and people who are terribly scared of where they perceive the modern world is going. Am I wrong? I find the whole phenomenon of fundamentalism baffling.
WP, I agree with you. But have you ever been to the southern US? Southern Culture is just as stupid as you described, and even if they aren’t religious, well, they are still just plain stupid. You give people too much credit. In the South, they are gullible enough to latch on to anything.
In my county, half the churches split and reform every year. At this rate, there should be 1048576 new churches in 20 years. So, no worries…
I don’t get the IFB anti-Calvinist thing. IFB preachers are very strong on the doctrines of eternal security and (supposedly) salvation by grace.
How Reformed can you get?
. . . In addition, they all seem to love Charles Haddon Spurgeon, who was nothing if not a Calvinist.
Pretty amazed that Dallas County, in the heart of the Bible Belt is one of the top ten counties. The say that they only approve of 64 churches in Dallas County – a web search shows 721 churches — granted that some of these (many, even) are apostate churches. They say Dallas county need 245 approved churches.
First time I’ve had a chance to look at this with my computer instead of just the iPhone. I will say the Google Earth tour of Maricopa county was kind of fun!
Still don’t quite get why Mojave county in AZ is included in the top 100. I can see why Maricopa (Phoenix) and Pima (Tucson) is included, but Mojave?!? There’s no major cities, the population is under 150,000, and there are some KJV churches! I would think that Pinal county would make more sense. It is the 2nd fastest growing county in the US, what with the southern end of the ever growing Phoenix metro area and the northern end of the ever growing Tucson metro area both getting into Pinal county! Also, according to his AZ detail Pinal needs a lot more churches that Mojave! So, yep, his “top 100” seems to be without rhyme or reason! 😆
Just looked at the California map / detail. Yep, top 100 is without rhyme or reason, even according to his own numbers!
Since when do fundies need a valid, logical reason to do/say anything?
I admire the way you were able to put “valid, logical and reason” in the same sentence with “Fundies”. 😯 😀
Why, thank you, sir.
My county lacks an IFB church! Sadly we have other churches I would count as fundamentalist, though with different Bible version preference. Church of Christ can be a scary place.
My family was in the Church of Christ before we were “converted” in a house church (Plymouth Brethren).
I agree that the Church of Christ can be scary. But honestly, upon reflection, the move was from one kind of fundy to another kind of fundy.
Not that every memory is a bad one, mind you….
I remember, ….
I was about 10 years old. We were in the Church of Christ. It had a large basement where Sunday School was held. Worship was held in the auditorium upstairs.
So my sister (8) and I were messing around with this 3-year-old. Nearly everyone was upstairs. And we started saying “Oink, oink, oink” to the kid, and he excitedly repeated it. A few more times and we sent him upstairs saying it where everyone could hear.
Sure, my mom tanned my backside over it, but it was so worth it!
Heh. And he mispelled “Alleghany” in PA. It should be “Allegheny”. “Alleghany” with the “a” is in Virginia and North Carolina.
This map is so inaccurate, Gilmer county, GA is listed red and yet I can’t think of a single non-fundamental church in that whole county. Same goes for Murray Co., GA, and Polk Co., TN. Murray only has 3 non-fundemtal churches that I can think of, and poor Polk Co. only has one and it is my church and we are still struggling with legalistics/Pharisees in the church.