198 thoughts on “Gothard: There’s No Such Thing as a Victim”

  1. The traveler to Jericho lies beaten and bleeding on the side of the road. The priest and the Levite pass by on the other side. The Gothardite crosses over and stands above the man.

    “Praise God, brother!” he exclaims. “You have been called to the exalted task of suffering for God.” Then he quotes him several Bible verses before cheerfully exhorting him, “Be faithful! We’ll be praying for you!” and then heading off, leaving the man slowly dying under the withering heat of the sun.

  2. Ho. Lee. FRAK.

    I’m calling Poe’s on this. No way is anyone both sadistic enough to believe that and stupid enough to say it in public.

    Sadly, I know I’m wrong on both counts.

    1. I’m thinking Poe too.

      Surely no-one (not even fundys or journalists) would quote 1 Peter 3:1 without reference to verse 7. Or chapter 4 which explains what kind of “suffering” the text is referring too – it explicitly excludes “punishment” as a valid kind of suffering in Verse 15.

      1. You’re obviously not familiar with Gothard. This type of “interpretation” is routine for him, and there are hundreds, maybe thousands, who are afraid to contradict any “principle” he extracts this way.

        1. ooouuff, wow….

          Isn’t think kind of talk the sort of thing the police need to be made aware of? There are laws against spousal violence right?

  3. “By whose stripes you were healed…likewise you wives.”

    If anybody ever needed proof that these madmen don’t care about what the Bible actually says, this is it.

    1. I was actually thinking that that was one of the worst outright abuses of a text that I have ever seen. Then I remembered all of the revivals that I have been to and thought, “never mind.”

    2. This “quotation” is outrageous. 👿 Are they serious? If a woman’s husband treats her like Roman soldiers treated Christ, she is to willingly comply? What an evil, inciting example of spiritual abuse. Not to mention a moronic example of illogical thinking. I think there are a few ideas between those verses represented by the ellipse!

      Believe it or not, this is essentially what I was told when I left a physically abusive husband. They excommunicated me before I even filed for divorce. I didn’t realize at the time that the “church” I belonged to was just as abusive–it just had another face. I pray for the dear women who believe this lie, and for their poor children as well. May they be set free with the truth of God’s word instead of hammered with it. 🙁

      1. the worst part of this, BL, is that it IS logical. “Logical” doesn’t mean “sensible” or “true,” just that the statement follows from axioms and statements derived from the axioms. (Yes, I oversimplify.) The author Robert Heinlein was right when he said, “Logic is a feeble reed.” I’m also with Darrell in saying that this demonstrates that the Bible’s meaning has no significance for these…creatures. It’s a horrible misuse of Scripture to suggest anything like this can be extracted from the text.

    1. Again, I have to draw from my voluteering in prisons. What is said in that clip is so extraordinarily unhelpful as to be less than the value of a used bottom wipe. What I do is part of an effort to help the men come to terms with what they have done, not let them off the hook for it. This negates the very purpose of restorative justice, restoration itself.

  4. Darrell, are you deliberately trying to make me trigger? 🙁

    I knew a missionary to Australia who actually said that the bible said that a woman should submit to her abusive husband unto death.


        1. 2011, and it was said online. He’s a missionary to Australia now, and totally unequipped to hold any position of authority in a church. I completely oppose his presence in my beautiful country.

  5. The booklet this was published in is dated 1978. I’m afraid it is actually real. Bill Gothard had an “answer” for every problem in life, even if he had never faced or conquered that problem himself. A supposedly virgin bachelor giving marriage, sex, and parenting advice.

    Oh, and by the way, he never follows his own rules if it is in any way inconvenient. Remind you of anyone in Scripture?

  6. I’m curious what the context of that photo is. Not because there’s any way to justify it, but because I’m imagining that it’s part of a larger brochure, with other bits of absurdity in it. 🙄

      1. “Giving the World a ‘New’ Approach to Life!”

        When you use quotation marks that way, Bill, it means “not really new, but we’re saying it’s new.”
        Which is about right.

  7. When we believe in literal interpretation and inerrancy of the bible all things area possible. What better way to subdue than to say its Gods law.

    1. That’s interesting, because I have written similar things. The “MO” of the fundy is something like the following:
      1) Begin with a behavior that you want to control (usually a “thou shalt not” in fundamentalism, but examples of “thou shalts” also exist).
      2) Find a text in Scripture that could be used to defend this command, including inductive reasoning and synthesis if necessary.
      3) Preach the new law as if it were in the Bible.

      The antecedent to all of these, however, is a belief in the binding authority of a certain interpretation of the Bible, which, when coupled with a modernist epistemology, results in inerrancy. It takes a few steps to get there, but I think you’re on to something.

      1. @Dr F,

        An example of what you are referring to is soulwinning. The Mog wants everyone to go out soulwinning so he quotes Proverbs 11:30.

        We all know that King Solomon ran a bus route. 🙄

        1. The NIV puts this verse as:

          The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life,
          And the one who is righteous saves lives.

          This relates to pestering people to recite a prayer how?


          The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

          . . . Because Jesus Himself asserting that people will pay only for their own sin means nothing compared to people taking a bad translation and running right off a cliff with it. YET AGAIN.

      2. Concept A from Bible.
        Concept B from Man.
        Man blends A and B together to make Concept AB.
        Man attributes AB to the Bible.
        Man drops A from Concept AB.
        Man attributes Concept A from the Bible.

        This has been repeated in Fundyland for so long by so many MOG that most Sheeple accept this type of logic as rational and ‘biblical’

        1. correction:

          Concept A from Bible.
          Concept B from Man.
          Man blends A and B together to make Concept AB.
          Man attributes AB to the Bible.
          Man drops A from Concept AB.
          Man attributes Concept B from the Bible.

          This has been repeated in Fundyland for so long by so many MOG that most Sheeple accept this type of logic as rational and ‘biblical’

    2. “When we believe in literal interpretation and inerrancy of the bible all things area possible.”

      It works even better if you place absolutely no value on the context of the verse you are quoting.

    3. Perhaps I’m misunderstanding you, but I would argue that w/out ” in literal interpretation and inerrancy of the bible ” all things are still possible. It’s humans that are the problem.

      I would further argue that if one were to read the rest of 1 Peter 3, and actually believe what it says, they would come to a much different conclusion than this evil person (not you but the author) did. There’s plenty in there for men to follow too.

        1. That’s one of the finest movies ever made (“The Treasure of the Sierra Madre”).
          If you haven’t seen it, stop what you’re doing right now and go watch it.

  8. Again showing you can ‘prove’ anything with random Bible quotations:

    “Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself….Jesus said “Go and do likewise””
    Matthew 27:5; Luke 10:37

      1. Lizard, I laughed until I cried over your example. As an editor, that use of punctuation cracked me up! But sadly, a lot of people go for that type of creative biblical interpretation!

        1. Another punctuation item (but not as funny):

          “If thou canst do anything, help us.”

          Jesus: “‘If thou canst?’ Believe! All things are possible to him that believes.”

          “Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.”

        2. The original manuscripts of the Bible had no punctuation as we know it. Yet examples like yours, Lizard, remind us that you can’t just throw in whatever punctuation you like.

      2. My sister-in-law (who is a writer) has a sign that says:

        “I’m hungry. Let’s eat Grandma.
        “I’m hungry. Let’s eat, Grandma.


        1. And in the spirit of all things dark and humorous, check out Flanders & Swann’s “The Reluctant Cannibal” about a kid who is literally fed up with people. 😈 :mrgreen:

    1. This is a problem with many Christians, not only do they believe the bible is the word or god, they mistakenly believe their god created the chapters and verses.
      They falsely assume that every verse can stand on its own, without referencing the verses before or after it. They create a “cut and paste” bible to fit their own agenda. Even Thomas Jefferson did this.
      I could probably rearrange the sentences “Twilight” and create a better book.

      Even my fundie mother acknowledges the chapters and verses are manmade.

    2. You can also have fun by claiming that a bible verse has specific significance to yourself.

      “And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.” – Luke 1:31.

      I’M PREGNANT!!!!

    3. “And Jesus answered him, saying…If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.” Luke 4:4; 4:7. Who wouldn’t be able to see the blasphemy that can arise from this type of snippet bible quotation? Please. 👿

  9. Wonder what this wind bag would say if the deacon board rail roaded him out of the church? Would he be the victim?

    I wonder if the IFB missionary who shot his wife in the back of the head on Valentines day, 5 miles from my house could use this defense? It also explains why she didn’t leave him after she found out about his 20 year old gf they brought back to go to Chrisitan college. The police found a note in the dead woman’s day planner saying she thought he was going to kill her.

    1. I wish I didn’t know that. I’ve been so sick about Denise, and the one comfort was that she probably didn’t even know what was going on. Realizing that she knew she was going to die and felt helpless to stop it makes me even sicker.

      He’s got a lot to answer for.

      1. I don’t know them, but my wife works with someone who went to school with both of them. I feel so sorry for the kids, whose faith has to be so shattered.

        The sad thing is, everyone around here felt it was the husband that did it. It is not a high crime area – however it did have people in that neighborhood freaked out for a few days.

        1. She was an acquaintance of mine, not a close friend, but her death was shocking and horrible nonetheless.
          The second I heard it I suspected he did it. Things were just not adding up, with the car parked half a mile away, etc. As for their kids, I can’t even imagine. When someone asked for prayer for him on my college page, I nearly choked.

          I hope the police finish tying up all the loose ends and that he goes away for a long, long time. I’m sick to death of hearing about IFB men and their abuses of others.

    2. We know the answer to what he would do if he was railroaded out. Because he was railroaded…er…temporarily removed during a scandal. Interestingly, he was only out for a few weeks before his replacement mysteriously resigned and he took over again. Shortly thereafter, the by-laws were amended to say that the president of IBLP (Bill Gothard) could never be fired.

      You can’t make up this kind of crazy.

    3. I, too, was shocked and dismayed to hear the story about her. I feel very bad for the children – it is hard to imagine growing up knowing that your father killed your mother. Does Illinois have the death penalty? One report said he had been arrested for capital murder.

        1. Murder with a fire-arm is Murder-1 in Illinois. The technical definition of capital murder is “The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.” So, I think the article got it right.

        2. The guy called 911 a couple of days before hand and reported a stranger man behind the house. The scene was made to look like a burglary gone bad. He went and picked up their daughter from the pre school nearby and when he pulled in the garage he saw the door inside was open, a broken window. Then he called 911 to report a burglary. The police found the wife shot, on the back of the head by the front door. The police got suspicious when his car was turned facing the road and he had his passport and a large sum of foreign cash in the car.

          The other woman, who they had brought back for
          Lithuania had been kicked out of a IFB college in FL because of their relationship. She was attending a Bible College in Chicago, about 2.5 hours from here.

    1. Sorry to hear that PP, but junk like this makes me boil, wants me to have a man- man “talk” with him in a back alley somewhere…
      But Our Lord would not be pleased with that….

  10. Wow, that is so sick and twisted. I just do not understand how ANYONE could say that. So if Mr. Gothard was being abused would he stay in he relationship? Somehow I really doubt it. Also the twisting of the last verse is hideous.

    1. Bill Gothard has never been married* and is childless. Perhaps we can all take a moment to give thanks here.

      *According to his official biography, “At the age of 15, Bill dedicated his life to helping teenagers and their parents make wise decisions. In order to give his complete attention to this, he has postponed marriage.” (He’s now 78 years old and apparently it’s still postponed.)

      1. It is a bit more complicated than that. At one time or another, at least one (and I think both) of his parents forbid him to marry. Or marry at the time. Or marry that particular person. Long story short, still not married, even though both parents are gone now. Personally, I am very glad he didn’t marry. But the reasons for it are awful. I don’t have all the pieces of the puzzle yet, but I’m guessing he comes by his characteristic of being overly controlling naturally.

      2. Reading this bio, I found the following unforgettable quote: “…Bill wrote his master’s thesis on a youth program that eventually led to seven Biblical, non-optional principles of life which, when followed, will result in harmonious relationships in all areas of life.”
        I don’t know which I find more obnoxious, the ‘non-optional principles’ or the assertion that these will ‘result in harmonious relationships in all areas of life.’ This guy isn’t just a control freak, he’s the King of the Pat Answer.
        Reading his own statement of these 7 “principles” one can see immediately the harm these can wreak, especially among the young or weak. And I don’t see the power of Christ or His atoning work ANYWHERE in the Gothard mess. It’s all work, bootstraps, and self-reliance.
        “nice jackboots.”

  11. sooooo, wife beaten by husband = Jesus’ suffering for the sins of the world?

    One must then conclude that inorder to sanctify the wife a husband must beat her. How sick is that!!! 👿

    In fact according to his philosophy to be sanctified one needs to be beaten in order to appreciate what Christ went through. What madness! What utter stupidity! arrrrgggggggggg!!

    1. It appears to me Liz that you are suffering (not being sanctified) because you’re not suffering (at the hands of your husband). 🙄

      So how does that little conundrum play out?

  12. So conducting yourself blamelessly amidst persecution as a Christian under evil human institutions is totally equivalent to taking a beating from a husband who’s in egregious violation of the 6th commandment? It’s one thing to be a martyr when the whole system is against you, but self-martyrdom when the institutions are working is stupid.
    “The face of the Lord is against those who do evil.”
    “It is time for judgment to begin at the household of God.”
    And the one least loved in Fundystan: “The elders among you … be not domineering over those in your charge, but be examples to the flock.” — All from 1 Peter. Does anyone ever read letters like a letter?

  13. As a cop’s wife, domestic violence will never stop being a hot topic with me. So many women are afraid to pursue charges, even after their abuser is arrested. Their poor spirits have been beaten down so badly.

    And then you have this…

    Which further encourages abusers to carry on doing what they do, and with a pat on the back for being “the headship”.

    1. Jesus replied “And you experts in the law, woe to you, becuase you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.” Luke 11:46

      As a retired police officer, I can assure you that there are many male victims of domestic abuse. I would venture to say that it is the most under-reported crime in the U.S.

      1. You’re right, Greg. There are, and it’s equally a crime either way.

        But, this blog topic discusses it as it relates to women, and so I was focusing my comment about them.

        So, there’s no reason for debate here.

        1. Wow, am I under a microscope or what! I’m not looking to debate. The overall topic is about Gothard not recognizing victims. Men suffer domestic abuse as well as women, that’s all I’m pointing out!

          fundyfacinated – They dont’ report for many of the same reasons as women. But the biggie is that of the macho male thing. It’s one thing to be considered the “weaker sex” and get beat on, entirely different matter when you are supposed to be the “stronger sex” and get beat on! There is an even bigger stigma attached to it!

        2. Ah. K, then. I just read it as you wanting to start a stew, and given your track record of stewage…

  14. I was enjoying this sunny almost spring day and then I come to SFL and this dark cloud decended. I HATE Gothardism with a deep and abiding passion. We were not a IBLP family but innocently ended up in the midst of families who were. This vile cult brought down my church, friends and almost my young daughter. I am left living in the rubble.

  15. “As marauders lie in ambush for a victim, so do bands of priests; they murder on the road to Shechem, carrying out their wicked schemes.” Hosea 6:9

    I presume we can substitute “priests” for “preachers” in this case?

  16. I guess Gothard never read this passage:

    Thus says the LORD:“For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not revoke the punishment,because they sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals—
    those who trample the head of the poor into the dust of the earth and turn aside the way of the afflicted…(Amos 2:6-7 ESV)

    …so I’m going to destroy you. – God (the rest of Amos)

  17. When I think about this a bit it really makes a sort of “fundy sense”. The Bible compares the church to a bride. Fundies wouldn’t want the church to wise up and leave their abusive preachers, why would they want women to leave their abusive husbands?

  18. I was taught to submit to whatever a husband did, as long as he didn’t cheat on me. That meant submitting to physical violence was part of the deal. It took me years to unlearn this.

    I met a woman in a Calvary Chapel church whose estranged husband held a gun to her head while declaring he would kill her and the children. He pulled the trigger and the gun didn’t go off. The woman got away and called her pastor for help (since her husband was one of his Bible teachers.) The pastor never helped the woman and her children, nor did he try to contact the man; but the pastor did tell the wife that if her husband did kill the kids, they would be in heaven.

    You just can’t make this stuff up.

    1. I’m pretty sure that putting a firearm to someone’s head and pulling the trigger looks awfully like attempted murder.. which last time I looked was criminal.

  19. Jesus announced himself to the public thus:
    “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
    because he has anointed me
    to proclaim good news to the poor.
    He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
    and recovery of sight for the blind,
    to set the oppressed free,
    to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”
    (Luke 4:18-19)

    That’s the OPPOSITE of perpetuating their oppression and telling them there is no such thing as a victim.

  20. Gothard doesn’t have a monopoly on this idea. I once had to sit through a positive-thinking-motivational-bestselling author speaker who explained that there are “no victims only volunteers”. She had been in an abusive marriage but realized that he abused her because she didn’t believe that he would not abuse her and all you have to do to escape a bad situation is believe that you deserve to be treated well. (Except she left her marriage anyway…hmmm).

    1. Heh. Yep. In the corporate context, too…. Once when I complained to my Big Boss about how my micro-managing-control-freaky Immediate Supervisor was stressing me so much that my stomach was churning and my heart was racing, he told me, and I quote: “We make our own stress.”

      At least THREE people had left the company because of this micro-managing boss. One of the three had actually gone out of his way to tell EVERYONE (from HR to the high mucky-mucks) that he was leaving specifically because of this woman.

      Yet, when she was driving me to an early coronary (or so it felt!), I was told: “We make our own stress.”

      On another occasion I was told that we make our own happiness, too. So, if I wasn’t happy with any aspect of my job (such as the constant, relentless micro-management), then it was my fault.

      Granted, this is not on the same plane as physical abuse. Not even close. But, as you say, alr, there’s a similar mindset at work.

      1. The Big Boss was just telling you, in the laziest and most derriere-coverin way possible, that he wasn’t going to do anything about the MMT (micro-managing twit). I grant he wrapped it in a sugar coatting of modern-day American pseudopsychobabbling hogwash. the reality was probably that getting the MMT fired/demoted was way too much work and risk. And so goes life in the office jungle. But hey, Gothard would tell you you had failed to adopt his 7 principles correctly. Arrrgh.

    2. My support group for survivors of childhood sexual abuse was excellent for the most part, but there was this one video–a highly put together and relentlessly sweet-faced woman explaining that we draw toward us the trials that we need in order to grow . . . Yeah, we didn’t watch part 2 of that video.

      Blame the victim, blame the victim, blame the victim. Because doing justice is just tooo haaaard.

      1. Jenny–I would not be surprised if it wasn’t the same woman. She has made all kinds of videos, cds, and written books. She bragged to us that her videos are used in victim support groups. So sorry you had to hear her garbage.

  21. This is by no means limited to Gothard. I remember a talk by Reformed fundamentalist John Piper that a woman should remain in an abusive relationship “for a season” (its more bible-y if you use the word “season”), to see how things pan out. Or some such. Legalistic adherence to some law never overcomes evil. If it did, Israel would have won, and there would be no need for a Messiah.

    1. Yep, it’s all part of speaking Evangelical. I hate it when people slip into that Bible-translation-phrase junk. Please, speak English. Clearly.

  22. Of course Gothard doesn’t believe in victims, because if he acknowledges that there is such then he will have to accept responsibility for his part in the victimization of hundreds if not thousands who have been abused at the hands of those who embrace his cult teachings.

  23. OMFG. It doesn’t get any clearer than that. Gothard-sanctioned abuse. Instead of showing a verse for why the wife needs to suffer like Christ, how about a verse that talks about why men should never harm their wives? That’s a lot of power that just got abused… Bill Gothard is a SICK ____. (Leave that word to your imagination)

  24. Dear SFL Reader:

    Assclown: n. 1. a person so laughable and detestable that neither the words “ass” nor “clown” properly describe them, thereby requiring the conjunction of the two.

    2. One who is a skid mark in society’s collective underwear; ex. ‘You, my good sir, are an assclown.’

    3. A person who, while making a serious attempt as something, fails to realize what a complete fool he has made of himself.

    4. An untalented schmuck.

    5. A common unspoken synonym for ‘Reverend’ or ‘Doctor’ in fundamentalist circles. ex. ‘This assclown received his honorary from Snob Clones Perversity.’

    6. One who takes part in buffoonery, douchebaggery, or general just-too-muchary, often because of drinking alcohol. ex. ‘Bill is an ass for sharting in the bar, and a clown for telling everyone about it. But he is an assclown for not going home from the bar and spending all night with a poopy butt.’

    7. One who thinks everything they say and do is correct, when in fact everything they say and do is dumb and completely hilarious.

    8. A clown of anal origin. ex. ‘Happy Birthday AssClown.’

    9. Someone so base that he flatulates for others’ benefit in the belief that they will enjoy it as much as he does. ex. ‘”Oh you, acting the assclown again,” she said with a thin facade of amusement.’

    10. A fake who pretends to ‘know-it-all,’ purporting to provide as factual [mis]information that is clearly untrue, often enhancing their stories, knowledge, experience and everything in between with pure bullshit.

    Christian Socialist

  25. So I guess that if I were to walk up and punch this heretic in the face he would count it a blessing as suffering for Christ. Quick, someone please get me his address!

  26. If there are no victims, how can there be abuse? How are we supposed to treat people WELL (in a godly manner) if poor treatment and abuse don’t exist? If good treatment doesn’t exist, how does good behavior exist? If good behavior doesn’t exist why do we need discipline? If we don’t need discipline why do we need authority/leadership? If we don’t need authority, WHY IS ANYONE LISTENING TO GOTHARD TO BEGIN WITH.

    Just an exercise on how ridiculous this line of thinking is. I don’t really believe authority or good treatment are useless/don’t exist. 😉

  27. I went to a couple of his seminars; I think it was pretty early on (mid-80s). Went to one advanced seminar… I was disappointed to find that most of his examples came from 1 or 2 families and were not as widespread as I had thought. Didn’t agree with the attitude that it was everyone’s duty to have a large of a family as they could.

    Glad I wasn’t caught up in that movement.

    1. Didn’t agree with the attitude that it was everyone’s duty to have a[s] large of a family as they could.

      Hey, even we don’t teach that. 😆

      We don’t teach that you should stay in an abusive relationship, either.

      Here in my diocese, the Sisters of Mercy run a home for female victims of domestic abuse — a “safe house” where women can escape from their abusers, keep themselves and their families out of harm’s way, get their lives back together, get job training, get help with court cases, etc.

      I guess the Sisters didn’t get the memo stating that there are no victims. 😮

    2. My parents did the whole Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts with my sister, probably around the same time (early 80s). I was too young, so I got to hang out at a babysitter’s and drink Ovaltine (no, this is REALLY what I remember most about it, lol). Thankfully, my parents only brought two children into the world, and they were already doing a great job of beating the sin out of us and destroying our self esteem, so Gothard didn’t cause too much trauma in my family.

    1. Yes, I know of a pastor (who was IFB) who happened to tell more than one woman that she had to stay with her cheating / beating husband.

      The last battered wife he told that to happened to be the sister of a couple of his deacons, both very large men. I think they persuaded him not to say such things any more.

  28. This hit a little too close to home for me today….I feel sick now. I’m always glad for any and all crazy fundy info Mr. Darrell would like to post – but sometimes it hurts to be reminded that it can be a very dangerous life if you’re drinking the Kool-Aid. My heart hurts for a friend who is going through this right now.

  29. Just sickening what that pamphlet had. To twist the Scriptures to the extent that you’re likening spousal abuse to Jesus going to the cross is frankly both horrific “advice” and extremely blasphemous.

  30. Would you say this is used mostly for women married to non-Christians? I tend to think so, which is even worse. Any man calling himself a Christian ought never to behave in a way to victimize his wife so terribly.

    1. Absolutely not. It is used to keep women in line with their ‘christian’ abusive husbands. I learned this first hand.

      I know of one man who was working as the head of a church ministry. The pastor refused to help the criminally abused wife when she begged him for help, when others begged him to help her. When she finally got the courage to leave her husband and go to the police, the church threw a going away party for HIM and she was verbally harassed for her sin by church members.

      1. For me it was used to protect my testimony, basically. And also if I was being a godly wife then surely my unsaved husband would treat me right? If he didn’t, well whose fault is it? But if I wanted to talk to him about our problems that was not being submissive. What a load of manure. Marriages that might get better if there was honest communication are broken and marriages that need to end are used to torture women and children (and also do nothing to cause repentance in the abuser). So sick.

  31. Not only is this completely twisted and sick, but no doubt completely one sided. I’m certain that his answer to the question “What if a husband is a victim of his wife’s hostility?” would not be that he just sit quietly and take any kind of abuse (physical or otherwise) and just consider it “suffering for Christ.”

    1. I suspect his response would include mockery and telling the man to “man up” (and probably encourage him to start abusing her back).

      Such a poisonous, twisted view of gender these people have. I thank God my Bible doesn’t say the things they try to make it say… and I thank God that my God doesn’t agree with them either!

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