366 thoughts on “Youth Conference Promotional Video”

  1. Larry is getting ready for this mornings rant at church. Do not expect any comments from him this morning. He will probably reference in his so called teaching or sermon the comments from this site as proof of his correct positions.

    The man is a total loser, loathsome – not winsome – and no amount of logic or argument will find a reception. He is hate filled and would fit nicely living in the 13th century. He could very well be a field commander for the Crusades.

    1. I think those field commanders were nowhere near that bad, provided that we are not talking about the Churchmen who were appointed by the Pope. They still were unlikely to have exhibited all the unpleasant characteristics we’ve just seen displayed.

  2. My boss and several of my co-workers are former Marines–and retired policemen on top of THAT. I believe they could kick the crap out of any IFB preacher all the way to Baghdad and back and they would if they could get their hands on whoever made this video.

    As to you, Larry, I wonder if you’ll be surprised when you stand before God and He doesn’t say “Well done, good and faithful servant”. You had the opportunity to witness to scores of people who post to and frequent this site. You had the opportunity to show us that not all IFB people fit the mold and that there is still some good in the IFB. Instead you came on here and chose to be hateful and patronizing. I wonder how many people you’ve driven away from Christ over the years with that attitude. Don’t come on here and reply about how many people you’ve gotten to say the Sinner’s Prayer over the years. It may help you sleep at night but frankly it doesn’t change anything in regard to the above. Go to your cult where you can feel proud and brag about having pissed off a bunch of “unbelievers”. For myself I’m going to an actual church where the preacher (gasp!) preaches from the Bible instead of whatever political issue has his panties in a wad that day.

    1. Rose, my metaphorical hat is off to you. I could not have said it any better. My heart does ache for his poor people today, who have to listen to him. 😥

    2. Rose, you make some good points, but can I gently remind you that you are a hypocrite and your posts are meaningless and actually absurd?

      Your first point was in defending the American military as somehow “honorable” or just when most honest people would say America is an imperialist nation bent on running all over anyone in the way. Marines are not “good people.” The American military has killed so many innocent children and civilians in the Middle East in the last few years that no one will ever know the true casualty count. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt that you are a very ignorant person. But I, and I would think most poster would agree with me on this, do not appreciate anyone who supports the American military and somehow tries to proclaim them as “good and honorable” when they are nothing but thugs.

      1. Meaningless or absurd, which? Never mind, they’re neither.
        And as for the US and US military: I won’t defend US actions as utterly good, noble, and pure. I’m not naive enough for that. On the other hand, dismissing the entire US military as “nothing but thugs” and implying that they cheerfully and callously kill noncombatants, especially women and children, reflects colossal ignorance of how the US military operates. And I suspect that most posters here do not support your position on this issue. And this is no place to go into the technical, legal, and political problems with the attempts to determine casualties.

    3. Rose, I’m really not trying to be rude and don’t mean to come across that way. I do really believe that you are just naive and ignorant and don’t really know what you are saying when you start off a conversation by defending American imperialism.

      I’m not sure how to do all of this linking stuff like you kids do, but there are a FEW good military people: This link shows us one of them. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4JDX0-Uo1E&feature=player_embedded

      1. We sure see all types around here, don’t we? But I think this is a first. And possibly rudest and most misplaced, yes.

      2. So far, you have come across, to me at least, as racist, ignorant, unlovely, annoying, immature, and annoying. I think that adds up to “Get Lost, Please.” I did say please, not wanting to appear, as you do, as rude.

        1. Seen Enough, let’s get off the fastrack! I happen to agree with you that Rose is racist, ignorant and rude by coming on here and defending the US military policy of invading foreign countries and killing innocent populations. I also agree with that Sheila lady that Rose is probably just ignorant and doesn’t know what she’s saying. I agree with everything you said about Rose, but please let’s be gracious and give her the benefit of the doubt that she’s been brainwashed in her church to defend the American militarisit, imperialist policies.

  3. Larry, just in case you may need some new and fresh material for your next message, try this one (have you ever read this?)

    Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word that you have heard. Yet I am writing you a new commandment that is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. Whoever says, ‘I am in the light’, while hating a brother or sister, is still in the darkness. Whoever loves a brother or sister lives in the light, and in such a person there is no cause for stumbling. But whoever hates another believer is in the darkness, walks in the darkness, and does not know the way to go, because the darkness has brought on blindness.

  4. Oh Larry???
    Our Beliefs-Doctrines states:

    We believe in the pre-millennial return of Christ to earth, after which He shall literally reign in peace upon the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6). We believe the Bible to teach two resurrections: the first of the righteous at Christ’s coming, the second of the wicked dead at the close of the thousand year reign. (I Thessalonians 4:13-17, Revelation 20: 12-15.)

    ummm so what do you do with all the righteous who are killed and who die during the Tribulation? They won’t be resurrected? Maybe you need to think this through a bit more, hummmm???

    1. Ugh! Jack Patterson was a pervert when I was employed at HAC at the same time he was, and an ignorant, uneducated one at that. I cannot put here what he was accused of doing, but it was creepy and perverted. Oh my gosh, the poor people at this Larry creature’s church! We really must pray they are delivered from him.

    1. I like to think of him as Loony Larry, but maybe Toony Larry would be more correct? Or Loony Tunes Larry? Lots of directions to go with this one!

      1. Let’s not stoop to his level and call him names. We’re fleas or something like that anyway…..

  5. Larry apparently doesn’t have an assistant pastor but that doesn’t surprise me as he probably couldn’t find anyone who shares his beliefs right down to the last iota (I can only hope). He seems to spend a fair amount of time trolling the internet looking to share his KJV obsession. You can check out his rants on some poor soul in the UK. Good to know that you’re using your time wisely, Larry!!

  6. Larry most likely doesn’t have an assistant pastor because the church is too small to afford one. His web page brags that everyone else in the church is a volunteer.

    I remember my days in fundamentalism. I was asked to play for a wedding about 30 miles from where I lived at the time. I went to the rehearsal and the wedding itself, and the parents of the bride paid me a whole five dollars for my trouble. I didn’t really know the couple that well, and I took it back then (and I still do now) that these people were clueless. Back in 1986, that five dollars didn’t even begin to compensate for the gasoline it took me to drive that 120 miles, plus it certainly didn’t compensate me for the time to get ready, plus the hour or two more during the rehearsal due to all the clowinging around people did when they should have been focused on the task at hand.

    As with Larry, these people tend to be very nice, but they don’t have a clue about stuff that should be obvious. In this case, Larry thinks that all he has to do is to spout off verses, and we’re supposed to run away. The verses, of course, are taken out of context, and the reasoning is circular at best.

    Fundamentalism of every stripe has one thing in common. People take stuff that is clearly a preference and turn it into a cardinal doctrine of the faith, and when people question these things, these people turn rabidly vicious. With Baptists, it has turned out to be the KJV. With the Catholics, it is the Trinitine Latin Mass. With the Russian Orthodox, it is the belief that Tzar Nicholas II took on the sins of the Russian people and died on their behalf. He was the power that restrained the powers of the Antichrist. The problem: One cannot read Tzar Nicholas into the Book of Revelation no matter how many rabbits one pulls out of the hat. And no matter how many rabbits our fundamentalist Baptist friends pull out of the hat, they cannot prove that the KJV is the Word of God spoken before all time. Stories in Russia are floating around about people who denied the Tzar and were punished by God just as stuff goes on here about unbelief and hellfire who deny the Word of God as perfected in the KJV.

  7. I LOLed so hard! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! They completely ruined it from the beginning for me! ^_^ “In 1611 God forged a sword” with the help of ELVEN SMITHS!!!! Yes, I am a geek for immediately noticing that they used Lord of the Rings footage. I also found it hilarious that the group that loudly denounces movies used (*cough*copyrighted*cough*) footage from a Hollywood blockbuster.

    Then I had to pause it and go get some water to drink. And, of course, I rolled my eyes at the extremely lame attempt to compare our brave men and women in uniform with the self-important fundy preachers shrieking their preferences from the pulpit.

  8. Ironic, praising the KJV while using the slang of white trash hillbillies.

    I can remember there were some Christian sects that not only used the KJV, but also did their best to speak in the King’s English.

    Fundies (among others) would criticize the Roman Catholic Church for wanting to get the Bible in an extinct language (Latin) so that it clergy could remain control over it.
    Wanting to keep the Bible in a 400 year old dialect serves the same propose. If you can’t understand part of the KJV, ask your MoG.

    1. Yes! It is a total control thing. Once in his office, Jack Hyles actually TOLD me that he had been able to counsel “more effctively” BEFORE there were so many other counselors to confuse the HACers. He was missing that absolute control he had once had, when every answer was HIS answer, ONLY. No wonder he eventually became KJVO. 🙄

  9. Serious repsonse: The whole weird military obsession yute ministry types have is a desperate attempt to entice teenage boys to get involved in church. There’s a whole “Jesus-is-my-boyfriend” vibe that flows through so much of Christian culture (sing with me, children: “You are my strength when I am weak, You are the treasure that I seek…”)that kind of weirds out straight teen guys. The marketing for this stuff has to be over the top, so it’s more interesting than MW17 or whatever, and so there’s that. It’s stupid and really sad, but nowadays, everything in the ministry is all about the marketing.

    Not-So-Serious Response: What the hay-ull is a snippet of “Full Metal Jacket” doing on your Teen Camp Promo Video, scumbag?? 😈

    1. Forgive me for being late to the party. Rodalena’s comment is probably the most mysterious comment yet.

      She’s making fun of a contemporary song, so she could be in good standing with many IFBs for looking at modern music as being something questionable and to be avoided. Yet at the same time she makes fun of the military like a good anti-war, peacenik, Commie liberal. But yet again, she makes light of men showing emotions or having feelings, so she can’t be a good feminist liberal. Her small comment is all over the map!

      For the record, my husband vehemently disagrees with your remarks and doesn’t think that showing weakness in the sight of God and claiming our dependence on God is a weak, girly thing. He and I both like that song and don’t get at all how you got the “Jesus is my boyfriend” ethos from this song. Yes, a lot of contemporary music is that way, but we don’t get where you’re coming from on this song.

      1. OK, Mis Ogeny, calm down.
        The 25% of your comment saying how you disagree with Rodalena is perfectly OK to post.
        The other 75%, which consists of calling her every name you can think of, is out of line.

        1. Big Gary, she said she was making a serious comment and so am I. Please don’t interject and try to be “cute.” Believe it or not, on rare occasion, some people actually try to have real, civil, and honest conversations online and don’t have to make everything either a joke or a cutting remark.

          My husband is “all man” and is not gay. He and I both were “offended” if you wish, at the supposition that men having emotions, having feelings, and showing humility and weakness in the site of God is somehow “girly” and gay. Her comments are all over the board and make no logical sense. From her comments, she should on the one hand be proud to be a “Southern, flag-wavin’, military wife,” or she should wear it as a badge of honor as a good liberal, progressive woman to be called a “Commie liberal.” Her comments are so elusive and mysterious that I was just covering my bases. She’s making multiple statements and giving us multiple points of views from her comments. By the way, my husband and I weren’t really offended by her remarks. We value her opinion and her right to her beliefs and think she should speak freely here. More than being offended, we were utterly confused by her remarks and just wanted some clarification on her remarks which seemed to point in different, polar opposite directions. She said she was being serious, and so was I. Ok, so I used a bit of humor in my post just to lighten it up. 😆 (I hope that doesn’t go against what I said at first about trying to be funny online. 😐 ) My post was serious and was not meant to be a joke or satire or condemning.

        2. Big Gary, on one hand Rodalena gives the impression that “real men” don’t admit weakness, show emotion, have emotion, and somehow are gay if they do. If you’re not The Terminator, well then you must be gay. “Real men” don’t listen to that kind of girly, weak stuff that’s prevalent in contemporary Christian music.

          Then in the same post she turns around and makes light of stereotypical “man” things and belittles and condemns the use of military, “non-gay” analogical themes as if now they are somehow bad.

          It’s like saying “I was for the outlawing of homosexuals and tax increases and abortions today before I was against it tomorrow.” I’m not making fun of her or making statements that are “uncalled for.” I’m simply trying to figure her out!

          And what about you, Mr. Gary? Aren’t you behaving like a chauvinistic male who thinks women can’t think or speak for themselves by instantly cutting in and taking over when someone questions them?

  10. lol – little chuckle. You obviously are avoiding the issue. # 1 – have heard any respond to some of the questions I ask. (you don’t have to respond to me – I understand that) However, to get more specific – how many who visit this website believe in the actual person of the Devil? How many visiting this website believe in the first 11 chapters of Genesis – much less Genesis 1:1? IN other words – is Genesis 1-11 actual history? How many visiting this website believe that two things that are different are the same?!

    It is very unfortunate that some of you have rebelled against the fundamentals of the faith once delivered because the presentation was given in a different tone of voice. Your preacher may have been an Amos or Elijah rather than a Jeremiah or a highly educated Paul or Luke.

    It is sad, that most of you don’t have – and you have been taught this – ANY final authority. Whatever you like or want – that is your final authority. You (at least from what you have written in these posts) are your own final authority. I find that sad . . . Had you been around the Lord Jesus when he delivered his scathing rebuke in Matthew 23 or heard Him speak in John 6 or Romans 1 or been present at His cleanings of the Temple or Romans 1 . . . and I could go on . . You would no doubt have accused the Lord of being unkind, mean spirited, a lunatic fundamentalist, etc, etc. Jesus in His person was perfectly balanced in His approach to sinners . . . you and me!! You are a sinner aren’t you?

    You have been “saved” haven’t you. You have been to the Cross haven’t you. You haven’t “born again” haven’t you? John 3:16; Romans 10:9-17; Romans 6:23; Romans 2:23. You were told what sin is and what sins are? The Holy Spirit’s ministry has been exercised in your to bring you to the place of repentance and belief? He did convict you of sin and righteousness and judgment? If that’s the fact – the case – than we’ll be together in Heaven!! And we will ALL apologize to each other and to the Lord Jesus at the judgment seat of Christ for alot of different things!

    I’ve got to go now – Adios

    1. Is this Larry’s feeble attempt at having the last word? I have a last word for you, Larry:seek professional help. Immediately. Also, seek grammatical, spelling, punctuation, and compositional help. I am praying for the handful of people who listen to you. My guess is, they are related by blood, so cannot get away.

    2. Duck, cover, avoid, change subject, and turn it back on the ones you argue against. There must be a fundie “How to put Backsliders in their place” Chick tract out there. Sounds so much like another we knew and loved.

      Now let me get this straight, because we do not bow down to some man in who stands behind a pulpit then we are guilty of rejecting a final authority? I for one believe that Jesus Christ is the final authority, the sole authority. Just because some guy thinks he is called™ to preach does not make him an authority. If one has the gift to preach and teach that is wonderful but that does not mean that he is somehow the god-proxy. What he preaches is not divinely inspired outside of the original autographs the text is based on. When one mounts the pulpit he does not become super-spiritual and somehow transcend the fact the is is a sinner saved by grace just like any other believer. Too many, so called, preachers think they are more than what they are. They stand in the pulpit and pass judgment and do more damage to the cause of Christ than an army or atheists could.

      And those are generally the very ones who come on here and tell us how evil we are.

    3. I didn’t rebel against any of the fundamentals of the faith, but rather against the method of presentation of them that I was exposed to my whole life. I still hold dear ALL the true doctrines represented in Scripture (including predestination) but I absolutely reject the method of delivery that Larry has exampled for us here.
      I am sorry that you (Larry) seem to think these two things are one and the same.

  11. To get a better understanding of Larry, I would recommend reading Bob Althemeyer’s book, “The Authoritarians”. The book is available for free-just google it. There is a whole chapter on Fundamentalism and it explains a lot. You can’t win an arguement with Larry-his church is the keeper of the true faith and if we don’t believe in the KJV only we are obviously bad old liberals (or worse). If we read Bart Erhman and agree with anything he says we are possessed by Satan because science and thinking logically is just arrogant fleshly thinking.

    I have heard of KingJamesOnlyism, but did not know much about it. The recent posts here are really eye openers.

    1. I agree, it is pearls before swine. But I always have that faint hope that someone this misguided can be delivered. I was. The so-called leaders rarely seem to be delivered, but the poor followers sometimes are. 😥

    2. I was reading his post and wishing there was some way I could word it that he might understand, but the more I thought about it the more I realized that there is absolutely NOTHING that could be said or done that will change their point of view other than the Holy Spirit doing a work in their hearts. That was what happened to me. And it was not in my time or anyone else’s time, it was in HIS time. Maybe we can hope for that at least. 🙂

      1. You do recall that in our time, JH was not a Ruckmanite? He refused to use anything but the KJV, but did not hold that the translation was inspired, and even pointed out a few inaccuracies! He still has the power to make me ill, jumping on that bandwagon when the scandals threatened his hold over fundies. 👿

        1. Yes, and I can remember him saying that he didn’t think it was an inspired translation, but that he did think it was the “best” translation there was. (I doubt he even looked at any others)

          I also remember when he would say the reference of where he was preaching from (when applicable) and then give the “page number” for everyone who had a Schoffield Reference Bible. So even if he wasn’t quite on the crazy wagon at that time, he was following it pretty closely.

  12. No one has answered any questions at all. Amazing – I guess I’ll let the “13” folks or so – and one Calvinists (fatalist) who follow this site keep to themselves – have a nice day! See you at the Judgment – which one?

    By the way, thanks for showing the video even you are guilty of pillaging as well – according to your definition!

    1. Larry,

      Just for the record, more folks visit this site each month than will probably visit your church in a decade and putting this video up here falls under Fair Use for the purposes of discussion and commentary.

      And yes, we will be there at the judgment. I pray that Christ will have mercy.


    2. Go back and look at my comments to you. I answered questions, and invited you to more discussion. You were insulting and ignored what I wrote. You are proving that you are a narrow-minded bigot who is only interested in forcing people to goose-step to your views. You, sir are unfit for the pastorate. And before you ask my credentials, my ordination in an Independent Baptist Church is no more or less biblical that yours.

      You say other translations change doctrine. Show us. Not one verse taken out of a passage separate from the context. Prove your statements or shut up. No more pontificating. Say something to back up your point.

    3. What question have you asked that you would like answered Larry? You have been all over the place. Pick one and I’ll answer it. Then I’ll ask you a question and you answer mine. Sound fair?

      Ask your question.

    4. I’ll answer your first question: I believe in the devil (little d). I bet he looks and sounds a lot like you.

    5. Larry, nobody hates you or your church but they just disagree over the KJV. Some things are for an individual to decide and some are not (Virgin birth, trinity, salvation by grace for example). The KJV is for the individual to decide. What troubles people is the twisting of scripture to control them by preachers who are on a power kick. If this bothers then ask your group of elders what to do. You don’t have elders? You might want to check up on that then and show yourself approved.

    6. Larry, I am glad you are engaging the commenters here and advocating for your position. I wish more people featured here would do so. Seeing how you express yourself is useful for a variety of reasons. Hundreds of people who have been hurt by fundamentalism comment on this website and you are helping them by reminding them why they left fundamentalism.

      Question for you: is it better to believe the right thing or do the right thing?

    7. I don’t consider myself a “Calvinist” when I think about it. I just recognize that the Bible teaches predestination. It teaches it very clearly and I think that the thing holding you back from believing it is that your pride will not let God be the final authority in such matters. *Hello Pot? Kettle here. You’re black.*

    8. Larry, As Uncle Wilver stated, I too answered your questions and then asked some of you that you have refused to answer. There are plenty of us here who are willing to carry on a civil discussion, but in order for that to happen both parties must be civil and so far you have fallen far short of that mark.

      Here is my last attempt. I believe in the original fundamentals as laid out in the early 20th century. They are listed here; the inerrancy of the Scriptures, the Deity of Christ, the second coming of Jesus Christ, the virgin birth, the physical resurrection of the body, the substitutionary atonement, the total depravity of man – original sin. I also hold to most tenets of Reformed theology after coming to those conclusions through many years of personal study. I despise many parts of my IFB upbringing, but am eternally grateful for what good that I did learn from that same upbringing. Such as a love for God’s Word and an appreciation for fellowship with others in the Body of Christ.

      Now I have answered (again) more than you have asked and I would appreciate it if you could just answer one question for me; if we disagree, how are we to respond to one another?

  13. Don,

    If one Bible has “virgin” and another version has young woman or young maiden (Isa. 7:14)are they the same???

    Boymom [curious – why did you choose that name]By the way, are the first 11 chapters of Genisis history?

    1. Larry, your first question displays absolutely towering ignorance about translations.

      As for your second question– If you’re going to show off your knowledge of the first book of the Bible, it would be a good idea to learn how to spell its name.

    2. One question at a time Larry.
      Are you referring to the word bĕthuwlah (used 50 times in Scripture)
      or the word parthenos?(used 14 times in Scripture) Which passage are you referring to as well.
      You have asked an open ended question.
      I Really need to know what passage you are referring to so I can answer the question. I checked Matthew 1:23 in the NIV, the ESV, the NASB,New KJV, the NLT, the RSV, the ASV, Common English, the CEV, the Easy to read version, HCSB, and the New Century version. They all read “Virgin” from the Greek parthenos. The doctrine of the Virgin Birth is firmly established with these versions. I used both the biblegateway.com for my research(http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matt%201:23&version=CEB;CEV;ERV;HCSB;NCV ) and the blueletterbible.org http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=1&t=ASV#conc/23

      1. Some further research:
        I checked Luke 1:17 out in all of these versions listed below and only three of them did not use the exact term virgin.
        The Good News Bible
        JB Phillips New Testament
        World Wide English

        Yet, all three of these establish the doctrine of the Virgin Birth in Matthew 1:23.

        21st Century King James Version Text
        American Standard Version Text
        Amplified Bible Text
        Common English Bible Text (with Apocrypha)
        Contemporary English Version Text
        Darby Translation Text
        Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition Text (with Apocrypha)
        Easy-to-Read Version Text
        English Standard Version Text
        English Standard Version Anglicised Text
        GOD’S WORD Translation Text
        Good News Translation Text (with Apocrypha)
        Holman Christian Standard Bible Text
        Holman Christian Standard Bible NT Audio (NT)
        J.B. Phillips New Testament Text (NT)
        King James Version Text
        Lexham English Bible Text (NT)
        New American Standard Bible Text
        New Century Version Text
        New International Reader’s Version Text
        New International Version Text
        New International Version – UK Text
        New International Version 1984 Text
        New King James Version Text
        New Life Version Text
        New Living Translation Text
        The Message Text
        Today’s New International Version Text
        Today’s New International Version Audio
        Worldwide English (New Testament) Text (NT)
        Wycliffe Bible Text
        Young’s Literal Translation

        1. Regarding Isaiah 7:14 again only three out of those listed did not use “Virgin”
          The Common English
          Easy to Read
          Good News.

          And again each of these establish the Virgin Birth in Matthew 1:23 and all but the Good News use virgin in Luke 1:27 as I have already pointed out.
          Yes, some of these tranlsations are better then others but none of them deny the Doctrine of the Virgin birth.

    3. my bad I couldn’t see the forrest for the trees. I finally saw the Isaiah reference. It is at the end of my research. So I will answer your general question. If you are basing your assertion on one verse in a translation then that is called proof texting. No one establishes doctrine on one word in one verse (at least I hope they have more intellegence than that, that is a good way to start a cult) Looking at several passages in each of the three versions where the term virgin was not used one can see that they do not deny the doctrine of the Virgin Birth and they do, in fact, establish it.
      In fact one could find isolated words and take them out of their context and make just about any assertion one wants to. But what does the whole text say? I make this assertion, that if one truely compares text in context there is not one “fundamental” doctrine of the faith that is harmed by any of the major translations.

  14. fwiw, my NIV says “The virgin” in Isaiah 7:14. I’ve heard countless times in fundamental churches that the “HIV” casts doubt on the virgin birth. After being lied to so many times from the pulpit, I no longer believe what someone says without trying to verify it first (should have been doing that a long time ago).

  15. Hi, Larry, here’s an answer to one of your questions: I just completed teaching a Bible study on the first 11 chapters of Genesis (six 24-hour days, young earth, global flood, gotta have literal Adam to have a Last Adam, dinosaurs on the Ark, that Genesis 1-11 is actual history and not a metaphorical tale, biblical worldview, absolute authority of God’s Word) to a group of 30+ women from a variety of Protestant denominations and a varied levels of spiritual maturity. This was through a military chapel. I used lots of scientific support. And I used the NIV. And God blessed way beyond my own feeble attempts. I went into this project with some apprehension because I am well aware of how controversial this subject is. Women asked questions. Women borrowed books and DVDs from my personal library to share with husbands and children. Women told me they had wondered at times why the Bible didn’t seem to line up with science as they had been taught in school and see in the media, but they ignored the issue figuring they’d never get a good answer and that it didn’t really matter. Women have said now they know they can trust Genesis from the very first verse. I saw God set women free regarding this issue. One said, “This is like water to a thirsty soul.” We were using the NIV. Some had other translations. But God blessed His Word because it was His Word!

    Yes, it is true that some who post on SFL do “believe in evolution” and some “believe in the literal Genesis record.” As a matter of fact, I find myself apprehensive in writing this, like I’m exposing myself to being called a “fundy” because I am a Biblical Creationist. I’ve been burned by IFB like many who post here. I’ve been out of it for a lot longer than many here. Here’s what really chaps my hide on this: 1. what one believes about origins has nothing to do with one’s salvation; to say otherwise is preaching “another gospel” and adding to salvation 2. fundys spout Biblical Creation alongside non-biblical KJV-only nonsense making truth look suspect by association. Science does indeed support scripture. There is a lot of good research going on in the creation science field, There are many degreed qualified scientists working in this area. But in spite of that, people tend to dismiss Biblical creation or not check into it because of association with pulpit-pounding, hankie-waving, aisle-running, folks who prefer to emulate the table-turning Jesus only. Folks who like the violence. Folks who forget His compassion to sinners, His tenderness to children and the sick, His willingness to befriend the scum of society and meet them on their ground. The Fruits of the Spirit should not be shriveled and sour but sweet and life-giving. God help us! In a world that needs Him and His love and peace, His church is fragmented by infighting! In answer to a second question: Yes, I believe in the actual person of the Devil, and I believe he is rubbing his hands in glee over the strife this King James Only issue has created among those he hates with all his filthy soul– God’s beloved children.

    Sorry for the ramble, my SFL friends.

    1. Well stated Kate. Not a ramble at all, just a very clear articulate stating of your beliefs. What people like Larry miss is that a)there are far more viewers here on a daily basis than there are commenters, and b)many of us have been around here long enough to know what the majority of the regular posters believe. For example; Don and I have never met, traded an email, or spoken by phone, yet I know that he and line up quite well in our doctrinal beliefs. The same could be said for me and Polished Shaft. And someday I would love to be visiting a church out East and actually meet Pastor’s Wife who seems to be one of the most God centered, sweetest people here. How do I come to that conclusion? By looking at more than just one comment and making a judgement about it.

    2. Kate, you really blessed me with this post! THANK YOU. I pray that the Lord will richly bless YOU this day, for your faith and obedience! 🙂

  16. JohnW,

    Question you asked: is it better to believe the right thing or do the right thing?

    One CAN believe the right thing AND do the right thing – why doesn’t one choose to do that?

    Virtually all of what God told Paul to write was aimed at believers who not only weren’t DOING the right things but also had the wrong spirit and or had the wrong “doctrine”.

    Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your ownselves (James 1:22)

    I recognize the FACT that many Fundamentalists are out of balance [especially preachers] and put way too much emphasis on the “dam” part of FunDAMentalist and not enough on the “MENTAL” part of the word!! And so do many of the parents of many of those who leave Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches.

    My grandfather used to say that is just as easy to be right as it is to be wrong. It is not the King James Only truth that causes most who leave – to leave – it is the manner or the “spirit” of those who hold to that position. Jesus said to the Disciples, on one occasion, “ye know not what spirit ye are of.”

    Most every group,etc. has “kids” who reject their parental and religious upbringing because of the manner in which their leaders and their parents present and live what they claim to believe.

    Satan knows how to play most any game we want to play!! He uses all of us to distort and prevert the truth by the wrong presentation – if necessary -or the wrong application etc.

    The Devil is the consumate “chess player” he will sacrifice most any piece to win the game. Look at Romans 7 for just one clear example of that truth. He uses Paul’s “old nature”, the “flesh” to attack Paul’s new nature. If Satan can’t get your soul, he will attempt by any means neccessary to destroy your life. He has mine. I am sure he has yours as well. Perhaps the “tool” he used in your case was ignorant, bellicous, mean-spirited parents or teachers or preachers etc. to one of the few “groups” who are trying to carry out the great commission.

    When you have multiple versions in one language or multiple portions of differing Greek Manuscripts – if you are not careful – it will cause GREAT confusion! God is not the Author of confusion. Correct!?

    Most believers DO NOT know that they are two major families of Greek Manuscripts from which Bibles are translated. The King James Bible is mostly translated from the Textus Receptus of which there are multiple editions – [I understand their to be at least 6 or 7] – (the Received Text is another name for the Textus Receptus) it is also sometimes called the Majority Text.

    The other Family of Manuscripts is referred to as the Minority Text . . . The Alexanderian Text (from Alexanderia, Egypt) comprised mainly of The Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts.

    The King James Bible is based off of the Majority Manuscripts. Almost changes made – in the well over 230 new versions in English – are made using the minority manuscripts (less than 5 percent of the total number of manuscripts) as their final authority.

    I think one does a disservice and gives Satan a leg up when one teaches that God’s Word or better yet – His words are out there somewhere – in Greek – not English. If one believes that God promised to perserve His words [Psalm 12:6-7][and every WORD of God is pure} then it stands to reason – in MY mind -that HE has done so! It is Scripture that God breaths into – not any particular language! Timothy had access to holy Scripture – not the Original Torah or Old Testament! It is a bocus claim that only the original writings of the human amanuenses words were inspired. God told Paul to write all scripture IS given by inspiration of God . . . NOT
    WAS . . !

    Since the “common” people hear Him gladly than He must have at this point in history perserved His words in the language that is more “universally” spoken than any other. It stands to reason that Satan would come against that process most vigorously to destroy it. (see Foxes Book of Martyrs and Martyrs Mirror)

    I trust I more than answered your first question. I realize you may have been exposed to the two familes of manuscript info, however, most have not.

    I have to speak to a group of Senior Citizens at our (as some – not you – have put it) tiny, misguided, pathetic, independent Baptist church. lol

    Looking forward to communicating with you later.

    Adios, John

    1. For all I know maybe you are right and the KJV is our best english translation. However, many doubt the orginal scriptures are historically accurate and recognize there are theological contradictions within the bible itself. I can not win an arguement with you about the bible, but will make the observation that in my experience many atheists and agnostics are more moral and even more christ-like than many christians.

      1. at JohnW: it’s hard to say there’s ever any such thing as a “best translation.” By what criteria? And even then, the ability of a translation to fit those criteria will be constantly shifting, because language (and its idiomatic and stylistic use) is always changing

        1. It’s only a good translation if it faithfully communicates. And the farther we get from Elizabethan usage, the less we can say that the KJV faithfully communicates, except to those who specifically foster their understanding of that idiom.

    2. So, when your predecessors quit using the Geneva Bible, were they guilty of heresy like we are?

      1. No. It goes back further than that. They were guilty of heresy when they said goodbye to the original Greek. It’s probably referenced somewhere in the Trail of Blood.

    3. Of course Larry, the majority aren’t always right. If they were, you’d have to stop being a Christian. And, for that matter, calling them “The Majority” of manuscripts is disingenuous, because they all came out of one region. If we went by a majority of agreement from *diverse* manuscripts (i.e. a majority of *regions* rather than just a majority of parchments), we’d find that the Textus Receptus is actually not perfectly reliable.

      1. If we went by a majority of pieces of paper, we’d have to say that Dan Brown was the best author in the world.

    4. What? Satan has your life? Did I read that part right?

      I know you aren’t saying you are a satanist or anything, but even the sentiment you attempted to share is entirely wrong, since

      Colossians 3:4 “…when Christ, who is our life”
      Galatians 2:20 “I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ liveth in me and the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God”.

      My life is dead. The life I have now is Christ’s. And Satan certainly doesn’t have that, nor any power over it. He can try to fool me into thinking I am still the old person, but the reality is that I am new. If I go around believing that Satan has my life, well, I wouldn’t be surprised if I started sinning up a storm. Right believing leads to right living bro 🙂

    5. So much focus on Satan…

      We are not ignorant of his wiles, but neither are we afraid of Him. He has been disarmed, he has no power of condemnation – despite what our feelings may say. If we fear Satan so much, then do we really understand God’s love and protection for us, since perfect love casts out all fear?

  17. Your answer is confusing, and since God is not the author of confusion, it must not be from God.

    Does anyone else find this whole discussion boring and irrelevant?

    1. Yes, I find the whole thing boring and irrelevant. Also, I find it hard to follow Larry’s train of thought, but I am glad he is adding his comments here.

    2. I find it slowly proceeding from compelling toward boring. I think it has passed the threshold and is indeed worthless.

      Clearly, Larry doesn’t understand the very basis of communication and translation. Translations exist to communicate, not only in language, but idiomatic and understandable language. The KJV was predominant for a long time, and some people still prefer it (which is fine), but it’s not the best at communicating God’s word in a broad sense to most english speakers. I thank God we have a large number of versions, so that diverse english speakers can understand what God has said.

  18. Larry – In your most recent comment you said:

    “…If one believes that God promised to perserve His words [Psalm 12:6-7]…”

    You probably would consider me a liberal apostate heathen, but even I know that Psalm 12:6-7 is NOT talking about God’s words. It is a reference to the people in verses 1-5. I even figured that out reading the KJV.
    I reference that because I have had IFB pastors scream at me that I was wrong. They v=never explained why I was wrong, just that I was wrong and I needed to get right. So you pulling that out really hits a nerve.

  19. It seems fruitless to talk with a bunch of people. I will address JohnW misgivings.

    English literature history divides the English language into Early English; Middle English and Modern English. The King’s English is considered Modern English! And by the way, folks didn’t talk that way in their spoken language in any era much less the Elisabethian Period. The standardization of letter shapes and spellings came about during a period of about 300 years after the printing press in 1455. Coincidentally . . “purified seven times” as some – including myself – see it referring to the “words” not the people regardless of whose nerves are frayed. The preachers whoever they were -were NOT right to yell at anyone Scorpio . . . regardless of their lack of knowledge. I apologize for them.

    JohnW – the issue is final authority – not winning an argument. What is your final authority? Is it 250 translations in English since 1611. What do you when they differ from each other. How do you decide which one is right? Which Greek manuscripts do you go to?

    Are Americans that blinded spiritually that after 250 some odd attempts to translate, we don’t have it right yet! Is anybody naive enough to think that we don’t have a scam going on here? There is a conspiracy going on being run by Satan. He is the god of this world you know.

    John, I know few atheists who are moral. Morality comes from a LAW GIVER. Atheists, agnostics, humanists, evolutionist have no law but preference! Why do you think “situation ethics” are being taught in our schools? There are no absolutes to them – at least moral absolutes!

    There are MANY who call themselves “Christians” that aren’t at all Christ-Like John, you know that.
    As the old Negro preacher said, “Everybody talkin’ ’bout Heaven, ain’ta goin’ there!” How right he was. Most of who claim to be “christians” are not. They are conforming to a religion labeled Christianity. They make no pretext of following the Lord Jesus Christ in the context of their daily lives.

    Jesus said, “Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord . . .”

    As for the Bible contradicting itself. It does not…theologically or otherwise. . . when “rightly divided.” All these new translations do however – they have to be different from each other to get royalties (a copyright). They must alter so many words to be considered a “new” translation – to get a copyright.

    If language standardization is necessary to our understanding in aviation, and math, and chemistry, etc. than why does anyone think the Scriptures are any different?

    Are we to dumb down the words of God, because someone isn’t being taught that there are roughly 500,000 words in English and another 500,000 technical words added to that. There are only 5,500 or so words in Greek!

    I know this info’,however boring it is to most all of you in this forum, is the most important decision you will make it your life outside of being born again. Either you believe that God, Almighty preserved His words with inspiration or you do not. It is as simple as that. “Yea, hath God said. . .” was the first thing recorded that Satan said. And Satan is still confusing the Church today, in these last days. If the foundations be destroyed . . . ladies and gentlemen . . . what can the righteous do?” – Psalm 11:3

    God used the King James Bible for 400 years and now we are so “stupid” that we have “needed” 260 or so new translations in the last 130 years!!! Come on . . . !!

    You don’t know what “thee” and “thou” means? Do you know the difference between “ye” and “you”? Do you understand all medical terminology, computer terminology, math terminology, terminology used in chemistry etc. Do you change Shakespeare? Of course, not. But many try to “change” God’s Word – the Scriptures. see: II Cor. 2:17

    The Devil hates the Scriptures, the words of God. So, he has counterfeited it, gradually, many times over. He is at 260 or so and counting . . . in English. He knows where the power is . . he is about negating the authority and the power. He has always put himself up as the alternative authority to God. He does that in our lives every day.

    Well, I’ve gone to preaching and I know most of you don’t “cotton” to preaching – just relavent talks or chats. Even though the Scriptures say,in 1 Cor. 1:21 – For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

    I am sorry JohnW – this abviously was not all for you. I’v backsliden and tried to address others as well. I know you have the spirit of sort it all out.

    Have a nice night! Really . . have a nice night.

    PS – JohnW . . . look up 2 verses in almost any other translation of the market in English. II Timothy 2:15 and I Timothy 3:16 and tell me they are not saying different things.

    Good night

        1. yeah, good question. Hey Larry, which old negro preacher you talking about? Does he have, you know, a name? What state was he from? Was he Baptist? 🙄

        2. It’s a traditional lyric in gospel songs.
          Googling around to find the author of the best-known song with this line, I didn’t find it, but I found this very interesting article that some SFL readers will want to read:

          Everybody Talking ’Bout Heaven Ain’t Goin’ There:
          “Mainstream” Baptist Theological Ethics Confronting Whiteness


          From the article:
          A very common refrain of the slave songs was “Everybody talking about heaven ain’t
          going there.” … It was the white, church-going, Jesus-talking folk, the ones who owned slaves or
          condoned slavery, who would not be going to heaven. It is a song of judgment on racism and
          those who benefit from it. (p.4)

    1. Hey look! A fundy is oversimplifying!

      If you wanna get technical about old/middle/modern English you don’t get to blow over the fact that the KJV is written in outdated “Early Modern English”. And don’t even bother trying the various charts that 1789 KJV English is more readable than the NIV.

    2. Languages change, and thankfully a lot of serious-minded people have done some great work translating the bible so that people can read it. You clearly aren’t paying attention to anything anyone is saying. (But, why would you, when it’s much easier to claim that your position is the only pure and right one, and everyone ELSE is obfuscating?)

      Glad to see that your time is better spent here, spouting anger, rather than, oh I don’t know, maybe doing some careful exegesis for a sermon

    3. Larry, you make a good point about authority. Personally, my final authority is my mind-I weigh the facts, and reach my own conclusions. However, in religion we do need an authority and guidelines. I looked up the two verses in the KJV and NASB. II Timothy 2:15 seemed more clear in the KJV, but I think that was because when I was a child I memorized the verse in the KJV and so it seemed more familiar and clear. I Timothy 3:16 sounded better in the KJV, but the NASB set apart part of the verse as a quotation and the footnotes said it seemed like a quote from a early christian hymn. I think the verse sounded better in the KJV, but it was useful knowing the scholars thought part of the verse might have been a quote from a hymn. The KJV gave no indication of this.

      We live in America and have freedom of religion. As long as you are not abusing people or preaching overt hate-best wishes to you.

  20. Larry. We WERE you. We all WERE you and we chose to walk away. You’ll have better luck with people who have never heard of your church than you will with us. Unless you’re not looking to help people but rather, attack them. If so, get in line. Your the millionth of a million more people who want to come wag their fingers at the people on this site. You’re nothing new. I’m tired now…yawn. 😐

    1. (I myself never had anything to do with IFB or fundamentalism, but i’ve experienced many similar tendencies)

  21. I’m concerned for the teens who will attend this KJVO youth conference. I was saved at age 13 in an IFB church in the late 60s. I was a compliant kid and willing to learn and therefore very impressionable. While I don’t recall the King James Version being so idolized as the trend is today, I do recall the pastor referring to the RSV, which was popular at the time, as the Reversed Stupid perVersion. He avidly promoted the Scofield reference Bible and announced his scripture passages by page number as well as the usual way. One summer my favorite aunt came to visit. She had an RSV Bible. I was chilled to the bone. I was scared Aunt Renie was going to hell! Only unsaved people would use that Bible. Plus, she attended an American Baptist Church. Liberal! That’s what I had learned from the preacher. I was too chicken to tell her how to be saved, so I never did. But it affected my relationship with her. It wasn’t until she came to my graduation from Bible college that I realized I’d been an idiot. She shared her heart and her love of Jesus with me in a mature conversation. BTW, my little Bible college was great and not KJVO. Renie died in 2000. I have her NIV Bible. It is one of my treasured possessions. The margins are filled with notes from lunchtime Bible studies at the City Hall where she’d worked her whole life. There were notes from studies by her pastor at that “liberal American Baptist church” that made me wish I could have sat under the wisdom and teaching of that man! There are notes of her own like “God loves ME!” where she pens her amazement of the personal love of a personal Savior. I can only imagine the arrogant teenage Bible bullies this youth conference could produce and relationships that could be damaged. God protect those kids!

    1. Kate,
      That did my heart more good than 30 years of sermons I’ve heard in Fundieland combined. That deserves an Amen!

    2. And that is why this whole KJVO is boring and irrelevant; because God is not hindered by whatever version is used. God can reach and Christ saves whether read in the KJV, NIV, NASB, the Message, the Living paraphrase or whatever your choice is. God didn’t need the KJV before 1611, He has used it for awhile, He will use something else 100 yrs from now.

      1. I absolutely agree that God can use whatever version someone has in their hands. He certainly has for me. Unfortunately the subject is not irrelevant for me because I’m going to run smack up against it in a month or so at the return of a pair of IFB KJVO missionaries from an extended furlough in the States. I dodged the bullet a year ago when their plans fell through to return here to the UK. My husband and I met them when we first arrived in ’09 and were thrilled to have a chance to be a part of a mission for US military. However, I soon caught a whiff of KJVO. My husband hasn’t had the history with it that I have had, but he is sensitive my concerns and we met with them so I could clear the air. They are a very nice couple. They have been missionaries in England for 30 years. To their credit they didn’t push KJV only on me. Probably thought they could convert me. Not a chance. They’ve been trying to raise more support in the States for over 2 years now, and expect to return within the month. My husband feels we should offer them our guest room while they house hunt. So, this subject is very relevant for me. In fact, I appreciate Larry’s lectures because it has given me an opportunity to review the KJVO arguments and tactics. And I appreciate all those who have responded with such excellent comments, insight and research. Especially thanks to Professor Don! Good stuff1

    3. That’s what scares me about places like this too. Even if they have right doctrines (and I am certainly NOT saying that this conference/church/group does, but just for the sake of argument) those doctrines are completely useless if their attitudes do nothing but drive people away from Christ. Larry has been a shining example of that attitude in this thread.

  22. “Great peace have they who love thy law and nothing shall offend them” – Psa. 119:165

    “This “room” is like a cat in a room full of rocking chairs.” Almost everyone is so easily offended. Jesus chose 12 and 1 was a devil. If you have a church that runs 144 – you might have 12 devils in it!!! So, what – the wheat and tares grow together.

    You left a “movement” because someone offended you. Mercy! There are former Mormons, Catholics, Republicans, Democracts, Baptists, Muslims (if they can get to a country where they would be shot), Klan Members, Liberals, Conservatives, King James Onlys, Presbyterians, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, Atheists, Communists, etc. etc. So what!

    You got hurt in a place or by parents who were hypocrites, we ALL are hypocrites to a degree. So, what’s new? [Romans 7] . . . go into a corner and get drunk. Start to indulge in drinking wine or some other alcoholic beverage, or go out a have a wild night on the town, or laugh it up with your friends about a Book that God has used to changes lives for over 400 years.

    It is sad what you have experienced in some “fundamental” churches that over emphasized “separation” over “salvation”.

    I wasn’t hermetically sealed so that I didn’t experiece some – and see some – hypocricy in the fundamental, Bible Believing, Soul-Winning, Missionary minded, Christ exalting, sin condemning, hell fire preaching, discipling, verse by veres teaching, etc. etc. But thank God I didn’t leave the fundamental church. To whom shall we go . . ?

    You don’t get hardly any truth in a Catholic church! And they martyred millions of people who didn’t believe like them during the “Dark Ages”.

    In fact, most groups or churches that call themselves “Christian” teach a salvation by works system. They are most pathetic and dangerous though they are free to teach that is THIS country.

    We wouldn’t have freedom of “religion” in America if wasn’t for Baptist. You can worship God or not worship God in this country.

    Baptists “started” it all in this country because they believed the Scriptures . . . as far as freedom of conscience and freedom of worship go. “Baptists” [Ana-Baptists} were hated by and murdered by both Catholics and Puritans in the past.

    Anyway, you are free to cast aside the blood of millions of martyrs and joke about separation {standards etc.}

    Laugh it up . . . it’s SO funny these crazy Baptist dying for the doctrine of symbolic water baptism. lol – LOL – LOL. They were so stupid weren’t they?! Sad, sad, to be brainwashed against the truth as so many in this website are.

    The Marines (we have one in our church) and the police (I have a brother who is a Chief of Police with over 30 years on the force) I’ll bet they think the video and the youth conference are great opportunities for some 150 or more young people to get the “rest of the story”. A truth they will never be exposed to most anywhere else. Certainly, not by very many of you.

    When we stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, those who are “born again” (by the way, where were most of you “born again?”) and give an account for our stand on the Scriptures. I would rather have God reprimand me for teaching the King James Bible (any edition) was the very Word of God, when it wasn’t, than to have Him reprimand me for teaching that the King James Bible wasn’t the infallible, perserved, inerrant, Word of God – when it IS!

    Have a sleepless night!

    And JohnW – thanks for your time – be mindful of this one thing – You read the King James Bible to think and every other book – you best think before your read them.

    1. Classic Response.

      Larry, I answered your question now here’s mine. Given the list of translation versions I previously cited, What doctrine is harmed in them? Name at least one doctrine that is harmed by any of them and please cite version and text (in context) with your indictment.


      1. Larry, Like Don I previously asked you to tell us what doctrines are changed in other translations. I also answered questions, which you seem to have conveniently overlooked. Will you please answer our question? Not with a wandering series of non sequiturs, but an actual answer.

        Scorpio-I agree. It’s official, and soon the Larry Show will be cancelled.

        1. Meh, the Larry Show was cancelled for me a few days ago when he didn’t bother to answer my question after I answered many of his. Besides, he’s honestly getting more and more confusing to read. His post above doesn’t have a coherent paragraph in the entire post. I tried. I really did, but I don’t need the condescension, egomania, or the assaults and attacks on my salvation.

    2. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. (Galatians 5:22-26 KJV)

      Larry, please tell me how mocking the painful experiences of others, being arrogant in your assertions, and wishing others ill models the fruit of the Spirit. Thank you.

      1. @ Kreine, I had the same thought. I got to thinking, I know what the fruits of the Spirit are but have I really thought about their definitions? So I did a word study on the fruits of the Spirit using the NASB MacArthur Study Bible.

        *Love~respect, devotion & affection that leads to willing, self-sacrificial service.

        *Joy~A happiness based on unchanging divine promises & eternal spiritual realities. A sense of well-being who knows all is well between himself & the Lord.

        *Peace~The inner calm that results from confidence in one’s saving reltionship with Christ.

        *Patience~Abiblity to endure inuries by others & the willingness to accept irritating or painful situations.

        *Kindness~ Tender concern for others, reflected in a desire to treat others gently, just as the Lord treats all believers.

        *Goodness~Moral & spiritual excellence manifested in active kindness.

        *Faithfulness~Loyalty & trustworthiness

        *Gentleness~Humble and gentle attitude that is patiently submissive in every offense, while having no desire fo revenge or retribution. It is used to describe 3 attitudes in the NT
        1)Teachability 2)consideration of others 3)submission to the will of God

        *Self control~This refers to restraining passions & appetites.

        *Against such thier is no law~ When a Christian walks by the Spirit, he/she will manifests His fruits. He needs no external law to produce the attitudes and behavior that pleases God.

        It was a very beneficial study for me. I remember back in my fundy days the “pastor” would say the fruits that should be evident in one’s life was door knocking, going to church everytime the door was open etc. Obviously, he never studied the meaning of the fruits of the Spirit. He didn’t show evidence of them in his life either. Quite the opposite was true. He and many folks in the church we attended lacked basic human compassion let alone have a love for people. That lack of love was my first clue that something was amiss.

  23. Ok – Uncle Wilver and Don,

    I’ll do it. No problem. All I need is one right?! I’ll give us 10! They will be part of the top 20 Fundamentals!? or would you all rather I stick to the “top” 10? or perhaps I should stick with the “top” 5!? The Diety of Christ, the Blood Atonement, Inspiration, Creation, Angels, Heaven, Hell, The Devil, Sodomy, Baptism, etc. etc. But Don ask for just one! I understand – how it works but it is somewhat difficult and time consuming to try and answer so many different questions from so many different people of so many different backgrounds . . . I will do my best.

    1. One will do Larry, but it must be documented and not just a sermonette of assertions. (like you just did above^)

      1. May I make a clarification? Don, I’m assuming by documenting and change of doctrine that you specifically mean the change or removal of any doctrine from the ENTIRE Bible in any version, not just the changing of one verse. Correct? We would both acknowledge that there are certain verses that have a word removed after proper handling by the translators or phrases that have been reworded, but even with those changes they do not remove or change the doctrines as a whole.

        1. Correct Eric.
          In one of the replies above I specifically addressed that.

          If you are basing your assertion on one verse in a translation then that is called proof texting. No one establishes doctrine on one word in one verse (at least I hope they have more intellegence than that, that is a good way to start a cult)…
          In fact one could find isolated words and take them out of their context and make just about any assertion one wants to. But what does the whole text say? I make this assertion, that if one truely compares text in context there is not one “fundamental” doctrine of the faith that is harmed by any of the major translations.

    2. Larry, the NASB strongly supports the blood atonement and deity of Christ. Your statements are false.:

      1 Peter 1:18-20
      knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you

      John 20:31
      but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

      John 1:14-18
      And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

  24. I had also suggested Larry read the whole passage. I believe he won’t name a specific doctrine that has been changed because he knows we can read the whole passage and show that no [true] doctrines have been harmed in the translation.

    1. I agree.
      Though I just looked back at his last reply and I have to admit I am unfamiliar with the “Doctrine” of Sodomy. 🙄

      1. I didn’t know that was a doctrine, either. So, what sin am I actually guilty of for befriending and actually finding out that I like many of the gay people I have met? Does it mean I’m really not a believer for not calling fire down on them?

  25. “Study” to shew thyself” as far as I can tell only shows up II Timothy 2:15 in a King James Bible – in many other versions (especially the ones suggested by Don) it is replaced with “do your best to present yourself”. . . The versions listed imply rather strongly a works based acceptance by God. Secondly, “righting dividing” is not the same as “one who teaches only the true message” (CEV) or “accurately handling the word of truth” (NASB) You know what a “handler is don’t you? Thirdly, you mess up your cross references when you start changing words! Fourthly, when you change words you change meanings and alter the message. Words mean something in God’s Book especially!

    Every “discipline” has its own “language”, it’s own “words”. There is Bible language . . . and Biblical definitions. As Mrs. Riplinger points out . . . the best dictionary on the Bible is the Bible itself. The King’s English usually gives you the definition of the word in the same verse or in a few verses near by.

    I Timothy 3:16 – tampers with the Incarnation of God and the Deity of God the Son with the other version listed say “He was manifested in the flesh” (ESV) “he was revealed in the flesh” (NASB) “He appeared in the flesh” (NIV) I am manfest, reveal, appear in the flesh. But I am not God manifest in the flesh!!! The Doctrine (not “teaching”) is altered by changing words! Doctrine by the way is changed to “teaching” alot in the new versions. They are NOT the same thing.

    Satan gets one to doubt God’s very words . . . did God actually say that! The examples are so numerous so as to “boggle the mind” – Luke 2:33; – “Joseph” removed – Matt.1:25; – “firstborn” removed; Acts 9:5-6 tampered with – so Saul doesn’t say “Lord, what wilt thou have me to do.” Col. 1:14 the phrase “through his blood” is removed; I could go on . . . but you know all the verses right! ad infinitum and nausea. But – you all know that …. don’t you.

    I saw where Don put Dr. Grady’s tape of his message to Crown College on yesterday and I watched it – in total! Outstanding! If you all reject THAT presentation and the information given in Gail Riplinger’s books . . . what am I wasting my time for? Mercy! You all know it all.

    Understand this . . . that the Devil works gradually over time. First this is questioned and than altered and than denied! I go back to what I originally said days ago. Over 260 version in English and “we” still don’t have it right yet?! “Ever learning, and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

    Why would one knowly put out “translations” and one knows where the mistakes are?! You all beleve don’t you, that “no translation is perfect – without errors – including the one (s) you use! No translation therefore is has inspiration in it. So, you have and use – by your own definition – uninspired bibles! No life! No, God’s breath on them. Just the Original Autographs – right! Who told you that? Where did that belief originate? German Higher Critics . . . Hummmmm . . .

    To UncleWilver,

    I am not calling down “fire” upon any “sodomites”. God – in the person of Jesus Christ – did that in the past. He will do the same in the future – that is not my call. . . “as it was in the days of Lot.” I believe Jesus said that as well.

    You do know what “sodomy” is don’t you? Would you think differently of a pedophile or one who engaged in bi-sexuality, or bestiality? Sodomy is having a “gay” old time! It is just “lust” run amok. It may be devil (demon for you) driven. see Romans 1:21-28 – Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
    Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
    Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
    Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
    Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
    Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

    I thought I’d leave you with a passage from the old, dusty,archaic Blackback 66 – King James Bible
    rendering of God’s statement on “sodomites” among other things. Do you understand the King’s English well enough to get the point?

    On a more positive note: God used the Apostle Paul to say – 1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
    1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

    There IS HOPE in Christ Jesus for all who come unto God by Him.

    1. Larry’s got stamina, you have to give him that. My only suggestion is you look up the word ‘synonym’ and then get a thesaurus.

    2. Study isn’t a Greek word, sir. Also, put the scare quotes down, you aren’t good with them.

    3. Larry, Larry. Larry
      You did it again, not only have you NOT proven any doctrine has been harmed but you once again have sermonized by assertion.
      I cannot believe that you actually invoked Gail Riplinger. You do know that her credentials are in interior design and not linguistics don’t you?? Going to her for linguistic support is like going to Marcus Welby for health advice.

      Number one rule for comparing text is that it is compared to the original text and the preponderance of text as clost to the original as one can get. One does NOT get to choose a translation, declare it to be the re-inspired preserved version and proceed to torch all other versions according to how they compare to your pet translation. That is just intellectually dishonest.

      Larry you are proof texting, in order to justify your KJV position. I posted this before but let me restate this from the very translator who translated the King Jimmy version:

      we do not deny, nay we affirm and avow, that the very meanest translation of the Bible in English, set forth by men of our profession, (for we have seen none of theirs of the whole Bible as yet) containeth the word of God, nay, is the word of God. As the King’s speech, which he uttereth in Parliament, being translated into French, Dutch, Italian, and Latin, is still the King’s speech, though it be not interpreted by every Translator with the like grace, nor peradventure so fitly for phrase, nor so expressly for sense, everywhere.

      Doctrine by the way is changed to “teaching” alot in the new versions. They are NOT the same thing.

      Ummm, look again, yes they are the same thing. Wow Larry.

    4. I saw where Don put Dr. Grady’s tape of his message to Crown College on yesterday and I watched it

      Ummm, really?
      I posted some SOTL stuff one where Joe Arthur was ranting and making a false argument with red herrings and strawman arguments regarding suposed attacks on the King James version. Some of the poorest preaching I have ever set through by the way, but I haven’t posted any Crown College or Grady footage. ??? don’t know where that came from.

    5. Larry, do you ever write short stories or poetry? If not, I think you might be good at it and should give it a try.

      I do not believe in KJV only, but I would have to say “study to show thy self approved…and rightly dividing the word of truth” just sounds better and more appropriate than how it is in the other versions. KJV is difficult to follow sometimes. What do you think about using the newer versions along side the KJV to help with understanding?

  26. Larry, Larry…. In answer to your statement about all of us being like “cats in a roomful of rockng chairs.” We didn’t leave the IFB movement because we were offended or had our feelings hurt. We left because we saw error in doctrine, emphasis, and practice.

    DOCTRINE: The elevation of the KJV to an idolatrous pedestal. Where the bible remains silent, I will remain silent. Therefore since the bible doesn’t talk about KJV issues, I will then relegate the issue to preference, not doctrine as many IFBs do.

    EMPHASIS: The exaltation of cultural prefences and man-made rules over the simplicity of the Gospel was revolting. Jesus reprimanded the pharisees for expecting men to follow all their extra rules which they added to the law.

    PRACTICE: I saw an absence of love and mercy. I saw people with genuine needs ignored because they didn’t fit the IFB mold of external “perfection”. I saw, and unfortunately practiced, judgmentalism towards those who were not following all the man-made rules.

    Just for the record, this wasn’t in just one church I attended, but in 4 out of the 5.

    EMPHASIS: The emphasis of cultural preferences and man-made rules over the sufficiency of Christ alone. I choose not to be distracted by the

  27. Larry, your condescending attitude is a normal reaction from someone arguing a point with no facts to back it up. Could you just stick with facts? Of course I know what sodomy is. I know what God did in Gen. 19. I also believe that God is not willing that any should perish, therefore I will befriend many people of many ilks, since I believe that is what Jesus would do, and He is my example. (See Matt. 9) Nowhere did Jesus Christ answer or confront people with hatred and vitriol. And I doubt anyone would listen to the Gospel after I told them they were a miserable abomination.

    Have you ever lied? At all, for any reason at any time? If so, then why should anyone think you could be saved on the basis of Rev 21:8(KJV) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    You might need to read from Gen. 1:1 to Rev. 22:21 with the understanding that this is ONE story, our fall into sin and our redemption through Jesus Christ. It is not a series of moral stories or proof-texts. It is to be taken as a whole.

    In 2 Tim. 2:15, the word translated rightly divide means to “cut straight”, or “dissect”. This is the only place this is used in Scripture, and the allusions are to a steward who properly distributes, or “handles” his masters possessions or to the priests as they properly divided, or “handled” the sacrifices. God wrote Scripture for all people of all ages and cultures, but it really does make more sense if you realize it wasn’t written by, or originally to, 20th or 21st century North Americans. There is a historical/cultural context that must be considered.

    1. You might need to read from Gen. 1:1 to Rev. 22:21 with the understanding that this is ONE story, our fall into sin and our redemption through Jesus Christ. It is not a series of moral stories or proof-texts. It is to be taken as a whole.

      That is MOST excellent! Suscinct! Well said!

  28. I watched this video and decided to contact these guys about their use of copyrighted material without permission. Here’s what I wrote them: “As a brother-in-law of a combat-wounded Marine (Afghanistan, 2009), I respectfully ask that you take down your “Youth Conference 2012″ video from YouTube. The United States Marine Corps does not fight for the Bible, but they do fight to protect the religious freedoms we share. I can’t see an instance where the United States Marine Corps would allow you to use their video footage to promote your youth conference. I don’t see any credit given to the United States Marine Corps for the use of their images/videos and believe you have infringed on their copyright privileges. I believe this does a disservice to the name of Jesus and you should be wholly ashamed of yourselves. Please remove this video immediately and send the United States Marine Corps an open letter of apology for your horrible mistake.”

    Here’s the reply I just received: “Dear David,

    Respectfully No. As family and friends of those who served honorably for our country and our freedoms, there are just as many who are supportive of this conference and believe this is an honorable presentation of the event. Despite your attempts to silence our “free speech”, we will continue to operate under the Bill of Rights and the privaleges under our constitution for which many have died and shed their blood. You will find no greater patriots than us. Thank you for your time. It sounds to me like someone in your religous, personal life has offended you in some way. I hope and pray you get over it and stop trying to attack those who are doing their best to reach teenagers for the cause of Christ. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. You have better things to do. Don’t worry, I won’t demand an open letter of apology for your horrible mistake.

    For the cause of Christ,

    Pastor Ryan Guenther”

    I especially like how he thanks me for my time and then tries to tear me a new one. Crazy, crazy people…

    1. I’ve got to re-read the First Amendment. I don’t recall any right to commit plagiarism being mentioned there.

  29. I give them credit. Way better than the Youth Conference at FBC under Hyles. 1920’s Vaudeville is just too much.

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