Breaking Legs (of Wayward Lambs)

If you’ve ever been a very naughty boy or girl on the campus of Bob Jones University you may have received something like this…

It’s funny how this sort of thing never made it into their promotional materials.


Since a lot of folks are asking how one accumulates 100 demerits, here’s a handy chart taken from the 2010-11 Student Handbook(You can click on the link to see all the details of the offenses and student life rules in general)

289 thoughts on “Breaking Legs (of Wayward Lambs)”

    1. To the post……I like how getting a haircut is important enough that it gets you off campus. Because we all know that hair touching your collar will hinder you in your service for Christ.

        1. @Darrell. You know those guys whose hair is long because of a play have to wear a button that says “Cast Member”!!! Because (a) you wouldn’t want to ruin your testimony and (b) so the ushers don’t pull you over during hair check

        2. I wish they did that. I’ll investigate that. I’ll swipe one if necessary so I can flaunt it when necessary.

          I know they have neon green “Class of 2015” buttons that might cover a minor offense. I’ll dig mine out again and wear it all year! (The mentality of us freshman is that we get one free pass on something. I know individuals who’ve used it already. I’m still good for now, though.)

      1. Which actually surprises me that they don’t have an on-campus barber…or do they? If not, why haven’t they done so to make sure all haircuts are of the approved variety?

      2. But be sure your hair isn’t too short either. My husband and the guys in his reserve unit were continually harassed by those self-important hall monitors at the door on haircheck day. Week after week, despite letters from the unit CO to the DOM, the DOM’s word that the harassment would stop, it continued. Yet, time after time, the school would call on the same guys to stand in color guards and patriotic events.

    1. I was a townie too, just at a different penitentiary, er I mean institution. We had to sign a code of conduct in the rule book or we got 25 demerits for not signing it. That was huge because 150 “D’s” was expulsion, but since I knew that I wouldn’t be under the radar of living in a dorm and wouldn’t be amassing demerits for not making my bed and crap like, and because I knew that I wasn’t going to follow all of the rules and didn’t want to lie about it, I just took the 25 demerits. Rebel with a cause, that’s me.

      1. I can’t see BJU compromising like that, at least not the BJU I remember. If you didn’t sign it initially I’m sure they would give you the demerits and still make you sign it – probably under some “spiritual leader’s” supervision.

  1. Wow! Since I never attended Big Jail University, could you enlighten me as to what crimes a student must commit in order to punished in this manner? ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

      1. During my time at BJU, bed or room-job demerits were given out on a scale. First offenses were 1, and after a certain number of those it went to 2, and so on. I came close to getting socialed once solely because of “clutter” demerits.

        1. Same here. My offenses were all room-job related, being up past curfew (writing in my journal), or being late to chapel (because I was in the bathroom puking my guts out). I was shocked at how easy it was to accumulate demerits – and I was smart when I broke rules ๐Ÿ™‚

      1. Well when I was there I guess you could call “level 3” being “shipped” or expelled. “Level 1” was to be “socialed” (or unable to talk to girls outside of class among other things), but you weren’t confined to campus 24 hours a day. Had to endure “level 2” for a semester, but you learn how to work around it ๐Ÿ˜‰

  2. Nothing demonstrates forgiveness and the love of Christ like telling you that if you do something two semesters in a row, you’re automatically guilty the following semester.

  3. I had no idea it was this bad. I didn’t become fundy til after I was married so I never went to any of these schools. I heard from others about demerits but I didn’t know it was this bad. How utterly insulting! Treating their students as children! Now those of you who have gone to these colleges, what kind of things do you get demerits for? I’ve heard they give them to you for things beyond your control like a vehicle breaking down causing you to be late back to the dorm so you break curfew? Is this true? ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

    1. In your specific instance (car broke down), it depends on the person you tell about your problem and on your dorm supe, R.A., etc. Some college personnel and student leaders actually exhibit Christlike empathy and do their best to enforce the spirit of the rules (or what normal people would consider the spirit of the rules). But if you happen to have an R.A. or meet a security guard who is more concerned with scoring points with the administration to further their future career ambition as an assistant dean, then you are in trouble.
      A lot of it also depends on your rep. If you are a “good” kid like I was at Fundy U, then you can be out past curfew and not even have it noticed, like I did a few times. But if you have a rep as a rebel, you had better be in 10 minutes early.

      1. Yes, demerits tend to be pretty arbitrary.

        Often times if you’ve been marked as a “bad egg” then you’ll be written up mercilessly in an attempt to get rid of you as soon as possible.

      2. I was one of the “good” ones, but my roommate was not. They were ready to pounce on her the second she arrived on campus. The things she got demerits for, if I did the same thing, I never would have gotten them. One time I got called into the Deans office because some little high school brat said he saw my roommate and I in another city and that my roommate flipped the finger at them. Because I was seen as “good” I got her out of a heap of trouble. She did not flip the finger at anyone…she didn’t even wave at anyone.

        I remember we got letters sent home at the end of the semester if we had accumulated less than 35 demerits. It was quick to note that even though we were good, it was not an indication of our heart or us as a person, just that we were good little boys and girls. So in other words, I was good at breaking the rules and getting away with it. Of course it helped that I was “good” one.

    2. My car once broke down while I was with a girlfriend and her mother in Charlotte. It had to be left overnight to be fixed. My only real option was to stay the night at their house.

      The hoops I had to jump through with the Dean of Men (including calling my father to get him to call the Dean of Men to get everything squared away) were nothing short of ridiculous.

      Then, when I got back, I got called into my RH supervisors office. Apparently my room mate had been using my computer to have cybersex with his girlfriend using the chat feature on an epilepsy website. And he thought it was me. Even though I was gone. ๐Ÿ’ก

      I wish I were making this up.

      And they wonder why I refuse to give them money.

      1. Oh yes, to think you’re actually paying them to treat you like this! Like you pay a dentist for a root canal but that would be less painful than going to fundy U, or as someone above called it , Big Jail University. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ

  4. Does anyone know how difficult (or easy?) it is to amass 100 demerits at BJU? Is it kind of like the Catholic church where mortal sins rate more demerits/greater penance? Can you get demerits revoked if you save someone’s soul?

    1. Haha! Elmo, I love this. In short, it is super easy to get that many demerits. However, once you’ve gotten so many demerits, you are no longer worthy of going out and ‘getting people saved’ so there’s no hope of that anyway. I would venture to say there would have been a whole lot more saving going on if it would have gotten demerits removed for completing such a task.

      1. Am I understanding this right? You were not allowed to go soul winning because you had too many demerits? To the IFB soul winning is everything, since supposedly you’re helping save someone from hell, but because you had demerits you weren’t allowed to fulfill the great commission. I can’t believe they’d let someone go to hell who may have been saved because you weren’t allowed to go! ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

        1. Then they would say it was all your fault for getting the demerits. Someone, somewhere is going to Hell because you didn’t clean your room properly. That ought to motivate you to do a better job next time!

    2. The demerits don’t get revoked. No amount of penance, bribery, or kissing of the tomb will get them taken away. However, they do start over each semester if you don’t have too many. I had to go to the DC weekly my second semester junior year because of an incompetent row monitor. He kept marking me absent for chapel. I told them he might could do his job if he could stay awake during chapel once. Every week I went to see them. After a couple of weeks of getting tired of seeing me, they’d just ask if I was there. He wasn’t a row monitor after that…

      1. When I was there, there was a cosmetology department and they had a salon in the basement of one of the girls’ dorms. I don’t think it was the first choice for men’s required haircuts though.

        1. Yes! And when I was fundy… and I mean FUNDY, that’s when I went to beauty school. I ALMOST went to BJU but decided that I could get my training in half the time at the local beauty school. It was a secular school, but I looked at myself as the one to bring them all light. I thought I was SO enlightened and there were girls there who honestly had more Christian in their pinkies than I had in my own self-righteous self.

    1. @Eric…yeah yeah yeah, because the cycle IS confession, forgiveness, and repentance…wait a minute you almost had me there.

      It goes like THIS. Confession, usually (coerced) based on another person “ratting you out”.

      And forgiveness goes like THIS. Thank you for confessing. Here are your demerits. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    2. I think they’re so worried about their brand name and the students who “represent” them, that they lose tract of their responsibility to each individual soul. Kindness and mercy and patience are often ignored because they just don’t want that kind of a person to be known as a BJU student. The potential spiritual growth of that person isn’t as important as preserving the reputation of the school.

      1. You got that right. I remember this from a movie from back in the 30’s called “Finishing School.” A girl had gotten pregnant and they wanted her to leave the school quietly so that the school’s reputation would be preserved. It was all hush hush and shoving it under the rug. How sad that Christian universities have the same kind of standards. ๐Ÿ˜ฅ

        1. Don’t you just mean fundy colleges? Because the Christian college I went to (Biola) wouldn’t be that cold toward a student who got pregnant out of wedlock (their student handbook specifically describes what’ll happen in that case and, imo, it’s in a way where the student is treated with dignity and grace).

        2. Agree with SuperNova. (Biola is a great school btw…) Formerly fundy Liberty University won’t automatically kick young ADULTS out of school for abuse of alcohol, drugs, etc. They have programs in place to work with the students to try and restore them instead of hammering them. The way it should be. Real Christianity is a grace-based place.

  5. Wow! If I’d gone there, I’d probably be a bitter atheist by now. Instead, I’m just a bitter ex-fundie. ๐Ÿ˜‰

    Thankfully, there aren’t any fundy colleges with a real engineering program. If there were, I might have had my arm twisted to go to one.

    1. Seriously. If I’d gone to fundy college I think I’d have been a seriously repressed basketcase. ‘Cause I know I would have been one of those people who stuck to all the rules. At least initially.

    2. A fundamentalist engineering school could never exist, or at least be a very good school, because engineering requires the following three things:

      1) Highly-developed critical thinking and decision-making skills
      2) A solid scientific background rooted in actual science, not the ‘make-believe’ stuff the fundies use
      3) An eye toward social responsibility (IEEE for example is recommending that social responsibility be made an integral part of a pre-engineering undergraduate curriculum)

      That said, a lot of graduates of ‘Christian’-oriented science programs end up working in the petroleum industry. Their skills upon entry to said industry are not highly regarded, and those who remain quickly learn how to do real science, not make-believe science.

  6. At my college the demerits had a multiplier. Not making your bed was worthy of 2 d’s. After the third offence of the same kind it doubled. It looked like this 2,2,2,4,8,16,32…

    As a freshman you had a week of “grace”. I found out that by the fourth day I had enough demerits to get kicked out lol.

  7. My sophomore year we had a girl move into our room who had been put on severe restriction. I don’t even remember what she did. She went to class but apart from that stayed in the room for the whole semester.

    Pretty girl. She had a bit of a reputation on campus for rule breaking but it was mostly things like leaving campus without permission. She wasn’t holding wild parties on the athletic field at midnight or anything like that. ๐Ÿ˜› I remember one guy asking in surprise “X is your roommate?” like I was living with Jezebel’s sister or something. She claimed there were people who wanted to get her shipped who were stalking her just waiting for her to break any tiny rule. That may well have been true.

    Her father hated the school and wanted her out and as soon as the semester was up she was gone. I have no idea why she was there to begin with.

    So I don’t know if she was a victim or if she was just a free spirit who couldn’t be contained. Either way she was better off away from there.

  8. This is why when people graduate a place like that with that type of disciplinary system, there are a few that just really can’t handle real life.

    I know a guy that has completed three master’s degrees at PCC, and his mother still washed his clothes (ought to tell you where he still lived), cleaned his room, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she still tucked him in at night. Granted, there are lots of people who graduate a place like BJU and do just fine – mainly because they can separate real life from that phony set-up of a school.

    I’m waiting for the first “they have to draw the line somewhere” comment. No, no they don’t. The fact that BJU feels like someone *has* to be unenrolled from ministerial classes (when I’m SURE that they’ve already paid for it) is strange. They’re telling people they can’t hold an off-campus job … uhhm, generally people hold a job because they need money.

    I’m also waiting for the first “well you shouldn’t go and sign the agreement if you have a problem with the rules” comment. Well, we all know how that works.

    1. “…I know a guy that has completed three masterโ€™s degrees at PCC, and his mother still washed his clothes (ought to tell you where he still lived), cleaned his room…”

      Darrell? :mrgreen:

  9. I got 100 demerits at one time for being off campus with my girlfriend (now wife) without a proper pass. I was dorm, she was townie. All we had to do was get a pass with Dean’s approval. Not a big deal. . .unless it was Sunday, and the dean’s offices were closed. Soooooo, we just said, “screw it” and went off anyway. Needless to say, we got caught once. We were at Furman cuddling in my truck, which had a prominently displayed BJU parking permit in the window. That was what got us.

    I also ended up with 151 demerits by about 3 weeks from the end of the semester. Tony Miller was kind enough to roll the D’s back to 149, and I scraped by to the end of the semester. I am a member of the 149 Club.

  10. A Pavlovian Experience of the first order.

    In other words… A CULT.

    The sad thing is that many of the ones who do well there arecoming from a background of the same ilk and are so programmed to the rules and how to wear the mask of conformity that they actually do rather well.

    This is why 33 years ago, after my youth group’s visit to BJU, I realized that I could never sell my soul to fit in with that lot. That’s what makes it so strange that when I came back to the church years later I went into the IFB and did sell out. I now know what it means to be “sold out” and “On Fire”… It has to do with who and what you sell yourself to.

    *and aside: if Christ purchased you, it wasn’t that he purchased you from yourself but from the bondage of sin, therefore you do not have the right to sell yourself out to anything, for you are not your own.

  11. Regarding the update……Would logging onto SFL be considered Misuse of Media?

    It is very arbitrary and seems setup to purge out the bad apples. Or anyone that might think for themselves.

    1. Maybe they’re waiting for me to accumulate 150 D’s worth of SFL-hours before they inform me that it is a “sin problem.” Ah, well. Until I know the law I shall continue to break the law.

  12. Wow! It’s hard to believe that anyone would willingly submit to the kind of blind obedience practiced in Nazi Germany.

    But they do display a streak of liberalism in Rule #2 in that it is limited to dating members of the opposite sex. Same sex dating is not disallowed.

  13. I can’t imagine being barred from graduation services after having earned one of their useless degrees.

    My kid is in her first year at Lee University. The dedication service was 180 to this BS. The Dean told the students they wanted them to suceed and would do everything in their power to help them. He even said he did not care what color their hair was or what they wore as long as they applied themselves and kept to the VERY FEW rules. The clincher was he told them no matter what you came from, in HS or previous college, this was a fresh start and to put it behind you. I wanted to jump up and hug the man. :mrgreen:

    1. Forgot to add The Kid had a friend who tried to get her to attend the BJU campus tour. She was tempted but I would not let her. I warned her her Ipod would automatically burst into flames if she set foot on that campus.

  14. Brings me back to the last two weeks of my freshman year at Bob Jones when two girls on my hall got kicked out the same night. One had gotten turned in for making a pass to go home on a weekend and going to a friend’s place instead (deception). The other had had sex with her boyfriend over Christmas break…and got reported in MAY. Someone had known all semester and then decided that the last two weeks of school was the time to turn her in. That was actually a common practice there.

    Neither of them were allowed to be alone as they were packing up their stuff to leave that very night. Our dorm counselor stayed with them (a practice known as “shadowing”) at all times. Supposedly it’s to prevent these obviously bad people from saying, “To heck with it” and putting soap in the fountain or whatever since they were already out, but I think (as others have said here) it serves more to shame the people.

    My roommate was best friends with the girl who slept with her boyfriend. She told me what the executed one said. She was taken to the Dean of Women’s office and seated before the Dean of Women and Dean of Students (at that time “Dr.” Jim Berg). They put a sheet of paper on the desk in front of her and told her to write down names. Since she was a bad person, and birds of a feather tend to flock together, obviously she knew of other terrible happenings secretly going on in shady corners of the Bubble. She showed more integrity than they did, however, and refused to play their game. She also hid her phone so they couldn’t search it. Yes, they search your phone/computer without your permission. Freakin’ Commies. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

    One of the leadership girls on our hall got in trouble because she knew about the girl who had made a deceptive pass and didn’t turn her in. How did the admin. know this? Oh, they searched her friend’s phone and read their texts to each other. She had to move to a different room on the hall because there had to be a person on leadership in every room, and she couldn’t remain in the same room with one of her old roommates being her leader. Again, during the last two weeks of the school year.

    I knew I wasn’t coming back after freshman year, but this incident still made my last two weeks behind the “Iron Curtain” more hellish. I honestly count it a miracle that I still follow Jesus. All this was done in His name.

    1. This is exactly what a Communist interrogation is like! They must’ve been reading Communist material to come up with this. Making you put other people’s names on a paper, making you sign it… the only thing missing were the thugs who will “encourage” you to cooperate by breaking your legs. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

      This may have supposedly been done in Jesus’ name but He was no part of it. I’m sure He is disgusted with places like this. ๐Ÿ˜ฅ

    2. While I was on staff at Fundy U I worked with student computers a lot. I remember twice being asked to search student computers while they were out at chapel to confirm suspicions of wrongdoing. My reply both times: do you have a search warrant? Because otherwise that’s all kinds of illegal. The looks of puzzlement were astounding – like they’d never considered that the Fourth Amendment applied to *the entire land*, including the dorms at Fundy U.

      1. I don’t know who turned them in. The girls who got kicked out weren’t told who turned them in. You were never allowed to face your accuser.

        And they claim to be followers of Christ.

  15. Oooo now Darrell added some examples! It’s like Jeopardy.

    “Mr. Trebek, could I have Misuse of Media for 50 please?” The music you are currently listening to on your Ipod. “What is Coldplay?”
    “That is correct! You have been awarded 50 demerits. Next category please.”
    “Could I have Disrespect for 50 please?”
    Ding ding, “Congratulations! You found one of the Daily Doubles. Answer this correctly and you can be expelled by the end of the day.”

  16. @Apostrophil: I had a guy who wasn’t allowed to graduate because he had been discussing “theological issues” in the dorm that disagreed with the church’s view on things. ๐Ÿ™„ Such a rebel.

    Ooooh I should post pictures of my FU’s insanely long rulebook. They weren’t extreme but oh so petty. It was depressing just reading through it!

    1. I know what you mean! The first time I read BJU’s handbook (you know, *after* I had registered and been checked in) I literally felt sick. I was still drinking the Fundy kool-aid at this point, but was on my way out. BJU contributed in no small part to my departure from Fundystan. ๐Ÿ˜€

  17. At HAC it was called being “campused” and I was campused almost the whole time I was there. Even with the regular restrictive dating rules and schedules, being campused made being engaged about the same as a long-distance relationship.
    It was so easy to get demerits. I remember getting them once because the bus driver forgot to pick us up and we got picked up by my (then friend, now husband), it was below freezing and we could have died on that corner, and it wasn’t like a DATE it was a RESCUE from a situation that we had absolutely no control over… and yet, the girls got demerits for it and my husband didn’t get any. Figure that out. Things like that happened often. If you argued or complained about them you were likely to get more. {shudder} SO glad to be out of that system. I would NEVER send my kids there even if they WANTED to go.

    1. Once again, being punished with demerits for a situation beyond your control. If you hadn’t shown up at their church service you’d get demerits for that so what were you supposed to do? Just stand there til you turned into an ice cube? I suppose if you’d gotten pneumonia that would’ve suited them just fine! At least you weren’t in a – gasp! vehicle with a man not your husband!

      And he got no demerits? Is this another sexist double standard? He gets no demerits for picking up girls but the girls get demerits for riding with him? This is ridiculous! ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

    2. Ya know, one thing I noticed going to WCBC, was that there were a few old-guard HAC former faculty in high-up administration, and the same level of favoritism and double standards were there too. If you wanted to be a golden child with the deans and administration, all you had to do was have a pretty voice/face.

      I remember one year the majority of the men’s tour group members had either gone to the movies or done other things that would get us normal folks in a crap-ton of trouble…. Ahhhh favoritism. Oft justified with “so-and-so from the Bible had favor!”

      1. They justified this, despite James 2: “My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don’t show favoritism… But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers” ? *angry face*

  18. At HAC, I once got demerits when Arlys Cooper found dust on a shoe box in the closet. Brenda Aldrich, high and mighty Witch Keeper of the Gate to Wendell Evans, gave me demerits when I responded to a chapel announcement to report to his office. I was 17, it was my second day on campus, I was 800 miles from home. I had not had time to digest the weighty tome that was the rule book, or else I would have known to get a hall pass first. I nearly left that day, but family idiots on both ends of the journey would not allow it. Eventually, I became an Approved Girl, and they don’t get demerits much.

    When I later returned as a faculty member, I did not give demerits. In fact, the year I was also a dorm supervisor, I got questioned by Carol Frye, Assistant Dean of Women and Closet Second Husband To Marlene. She demanded to know how I could have the worst girl on campus on my floor, and yet never have signed any
    demerits. Arbitrary system? You bet your life. Clyde Wolfe, OTOH, who deserves an entire blog post to himself here, growled at me whenever it was my turn to walk halls that I had better not be writing anyone up. What. A. Bunch. Of. Freaks. All law, no love, no mercy, and actually, all judgment and no justice. So thankful it is in the dim and distant past, and so hopeful that the youngsters there now will have their yes opened! ๐Ÿ™„

    1. One of the reasons I was always campused was that I was on Carol Frye’s floor. She defies description except I think maybe she was either a really bitter man in drag or just the butchest woman in a pencil skirt and high heeled tee strap shoes ever. She absolutely hated me and showed it by giving me all kinds of extra attention. She would assign me “extra” projects like cleaning the hair out of the drains in the showers and then not inspect it until the end of the day when the showers had been used again after I had done the job. She was hateful and unreasonable and very clear as to who her favorite girls were. There was no way NOT to get demerits and at some point I just gave up and rolled with it. The library was a very nice place to hide and the stairway was a good place to cry. It didn’t hurt me at all. Didn’t hurt me at all. Didn’t hurt me at all…

      1. She did not like me, either, but feared Wendell Evans, who had become sort of my protector. She liked me even less when he brought me back as faculty. She insisted to me privately that it was her idea to also make me a dorm supe, because I needed her influence. When I got engaged to my late husband she told me he would have dated her, if he had thought she would have said yes. He nearly tossed his cookies when I told him that one…. Wendell Evans told me HE had insisted I become a dorm supe, so I would have no cost of living problems, and that Frye had been opposed. Which liar? ๐Ÿ™„

        1. Did I tell you about the time she brought me into her office for “counselling” and told me I should be wearing make up and t-strap shoes ( Because Marlene Evans always wore them and ๐Ÿ˜† according to her they do something for the appearance of your calves… judging by what they did for hers, evidently make them look like Christmas Hams.) Anyway, she always overused the make up (I assume to hide the goatee) and told me I ought to do the same. I told her my fiancee liked me just fine without it and thank you for the (useless) advice but we were happy. She suggested I should break up with him and if she had a boyfriend who didn’t like her “Just as she was” (aka. with a ton of makeup) she wouldn’t have him. I said, “Well, that is probably why *I* have a boyfriend and you don’t.” (I’m pretty sure that was when she started hating me) I just remembered that you already knew all this, but I also love telling that story. ๐Ÿ˜†

        2. It is SO WORTH reading it again, for the Christmas hams comment, and the goatee comment. In fact, I cannot stop guffawing. Sigh of blissful merriment. What asses they were! ๐Ÿ™„ ๐Ÿ˜†

        3. This woman reminds me of Dolores Umbridge from the Harry Potter books. I wonder if my sister ever ran into this woman when she went to HAC? I’ll have to ask her.

        4. Actually, Ben, not a bad comparison. Anyway, it would depend on when your sister was there. The Frye was gone, oh, by some time in the early to mid nineties, I think… Sims and I are senior posters, here. ๐Ÿ˜‰

        5. Ugh…didn’t know “her”. George won’t leave me alone today, he’s been following me everywhere!

    2. Love these remembrances from you and from Sims… I’d like to hear more about tales from HAC.

      I knew a teen that went there, and only lasted a year or a perhaps a semester. He had a job as a security guard there, and came back very, very disillusioned and said that I didn’t have a clue about what went on there.

      At the time (1987 or 1988), I just thought he was angry, upset, or bitter (I’d been trained to think that way), but in the light of all the evidence that has come out about the shenanigans going on there, he may have glimpsed the truth and refused to be part of the cover-up.

      1. Oh My Gosh. Seen Enough. There is someone here who WANTS to hear our soggy college tales!!! ~Old person voice with no teeth~
        Why back in MAH day We ate PIMENTO CHEESE SANDWICHES and we were HAPPY to have em! HAPPY, I tell ya! Now where did I leave my talkey box thing? Sorry. I am kindof weird. I blame Jack Hyles for that though.

      2. @Guilt Ridden, I have read your other posts and want to tell you that my heart goes out to you. I have been where you are and I HATED being there. I, too, was given the guilt trip about Soul Winning, etc. and even still I sometimes question whether or not what I do for the Lord has any eternal value. But I also question if the “soul-winning” I used to do back in the fundy days maybe did more harm than good as I run in to people who have been accosted that way and have had their opinions of Christians formed by only what they see in that “soul-winner”. Just remember, Jesus loved you when you were DEAD in your sins and you don’t have to do one single thing FOR Him to “earn” that love. So just bake in His love for awhile and don’t let other’s guilt trips become your own. (That was what I like to call “motherly advice”) ๐Ÿ™‚

      3. Shoot, Sims, she really likes us! Sniffle. Our stories are the oldies. I graduated in 1980! Jack Hyles was still screaming and controlling, and would do so for 21 more years. Jack Shaap was a mere butt hole in the dorms, as opposed to a raving maniac in a pulpit. Marlene Evans was still alive, still an idiot. Her girlfriend Carol Frye still worked there. We did get pimiento cheese sandwiches, and peanut butter with honey, and thrown out onto freezing Chicago street corners for ten hours at a time, with that to eat. Dave Hyles’ porn star wife-to-be was my bus calling partner sometimes. HE was still the youth pastor. GAGGING. Jim Vineyard was still there, the racist pig. I FINALLY got senioritis, a week before graduation, and went wild: I came inside after dark. Yep, that is how crazy I got. I was one of the good girls, because I truly believed that kept me right with God. Thank You, Lord, for deliverance!!!!

        1. Ahh… The Glory Days. Jim Vinyard. Eww! Makes me ill just thinking about him. I remember he spoke almost every day in Chapel or Church Ed. I specifically remember him telling about his little two year old boy who died of cancer or leukemia or something and told the whole story graphically but with absolutely no emotion as if it had happened to someone else’s child. He said it was God’s punishment for putting anything closer to his heart than God. It actually made my husband afraid to love our son and caused him to be quite detached from him most of his childhood. I hold Jim Vinyard accountable for THAT hurdle we had to climb over. I now wonder if his story was even true.

        2. Yes, Sims. He is a sociopath. He can tell stories like that and be fine with it. How else did he justify the risk he put the dorm girls in, every Saturday? SOCIOPATH.

        3. Ahem.

          He, not she (I thought I had posted enough to identify my sex, but I guess not).

          I was in a HAC-worshipping church for many years, so I know the names, but only the polished image that was carefully crafted. Marlene Evans was held up as the perfect wife. I was in Garland, TX, once and went to MRBC when Dave Hyles was the pastor (I didn’t know who he was at the time, and I certainly didn’t know his reputation).

          Jim Vineyard was also revered.

          But since I’ve been out, it has been quite revealing to find out what was really under the polished surface of these icons of fundamentalism.

        4. Oh, GR, sorry! I am not the brightest bulb in the chandelier. Thank Heavens Dave Hles was not your pastor! Why that church did not do and say more against the lie that their order pastor, Jack Hyles, foisted upon them when he sent his son Dave down there, I will never know. What betrayal!

        5. And was that his FIRST wife? Because our youth pastor bragged about being Dave Hyles’ best friend when they were in High School, and bragged about all the trouble they got into and all the bad things they did together. He ended up in jail I believe it was for being a pedophile. HIS (ex) wife was the one who told me about what he was up to after he left the church. (the dead baby, etc.) But Dave was on wife #2 at that point I think. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

        6. Brenda Davis was my calling partner when mine was sick, etc. She married Somebody Stevens after she graduated. That couple went o Garland TX to work in Dave Hyles’ church. The rest is history. She became DH’s second wife; Paula is, I hope, happy and anonymous somewhere, with their children. She did remarry, and that is all I know. Brenda, wife 2 and oversexed skank, later posed nude in a porn magazine ad, advertising for like-minded couples. She and Dave are disgusting, and one of them at least is a child-killer, though itcould be both, since two children have died. Google Dave Hyles, Brenda Stevens Hyles, Brent Stevens… Any of these will get you the horrible details. Brent was hers by first husband. I will always believevDH killed him, and apparently, so do the police. The other dead child was DH’s and Brenda’s together. She ran over that child with her car. I am not making this up.

        7. Well, that all certainly fits with what I heard from my sources. Nothing I heard about him (them) ever surprised me. They were so proud of how bad they were. I can still remember that ugly smirky face. And how he would “preach” to us about behavior and all the time HIS was … ๐Ÿ‘ฟ nevermind.

        8. Seen Enough, at the end of that article it said they couldn’t find any photos of him. I have his image burned in my brain forever unfortunately. Do you still have any yearbooks?

        9. There has been NOTHING related to HAC in my home for well over twenty years. But that claim is outdated. I saw a picture of him not long ago, just by Facebooking him, I think.
          I will have dreams of HAC tonight, if I keep on with this. It just kills me that Brent Stevens would be a young man in his twenties today, close to my own sons in age. And the one she killed? Unbelievable.
          My senior year at HAC, she was married but her husband worked second shift, so she sat with me at church, Wednesday nights, up in the balcony. Every week, she told me she could not focus on the preaching, because she just wanted sex with her husband so badly, she did not know how she could wait for him to get home. He infuriated her by being so tired after work. After a few weeks of this, I sat downstairs. I thought she was crazy. She laughed at me for notvwearing thevsuper greasy lp gloss she wore. She insisted men loved to see a shiny greasy mouth, because it gave them erotic thoughts. When I tried to reason with her that, surely this was not the way a woman should try to look, she laughed at me. ๐Ÿ™„ today, two children are dead because of this hellish pair. ๐Ÿ‘ฟ

        10. I don’t really want to look in our pictures trunk to see if we still have an old yearbook. Most of our stuff like that (tapes, books, etc.) all disappeared at once. But I may have accidentally brought some of the evil on into my new life hidden in with my old photos. Used to be, whenever I would get stressed or things were really bad, and I would have bad dreams, they were always in the context of being back in college or on a bus somewhere. I bet a psychologist could have built a dream home off of MY issues.

        11. Me, too, at first. But now I am glad to see what he has become. How the mighty have fallen. Brenda still looks the same, but who knows how old that FB pic is.

        12. “Jack Schaap was a mere buthole in the doorms”
          Now that’s just funny. Was he always a big jerk who worshiped Jack Hyles? Did he ever think he was was the man who would be king or was he plan B after Dave Hyles was gone?

  19. So if you get to this level of disciplinary action, you can’t even socialize with members of the opposite sex? This shouldn’t surprise me, after all that I’ve read on here about BJU, but… man. Are you allowed to talk to them in class? (for that matter, I don’t think I’ve ever asked this before, but do guys and girls have the same classes at all?) Because that’s just so unfathomable to my mind, going to a non-fundy university.

    Come to think of it, it would be incredibly boring, too. I’m a computer science major, there’s only a handful of girls in most of my classes anyway…

    1. Annie Moose. Yes, all classes (except ministerial classes, amen) are open to guys and girls. If memory serves correctly, being “socialed” as they called it, meant you could speak to the opposite sex in class but you were not allowed to attend any events on campus like the sports games or artist series events etc, with the opposite sex.

  20. Ok, a couple questions/comments.

    First, what, exactly, is “spiritual probation”? Is this another nebulous way for them to get people in trouble? What would somebody have to do to get on it?

    Do they honestly expect somebody to quit their off-campus job if they are on disciplinary restriction #2? Really?? That’s awful, and I hope that they at least attempt to replace it with an on-campus job. How can they take a source of money away and be ok with that? I’m sure the outside job would be shocked at the reason the student had to quit…

    Oh, and absences…non-classroom activites? I’m guessing church or other required church activites? That really sucks that you get demerits for that.

    1. My short story is posted above, but YES, I had to quit my off-campus job at Discount Tire. I felt like such a dork telling the guys there why I had to quit. I also was working on-campus with Public Safety. I got demoted from a patrol position to gatehouse and traffic. Apparently campus security is one of those “example to others” positions on campus, therefore I had to be demoted after getting into trouble.

    2. I can proudly say that I accrued the following punishments over my 4 years at the kool-aid factory:

      Academic probation – came from an ACE school
      Spiritual probation

      1. Ok, that’s just sad that you were put on academic probation because of your ACE schooling. If it’s not even good enough for a fundy college, why is it still in existence?

        I also went to an ACE school until 4th grade, and absolutely hated it.

        1. I went to an ACE school for 4th grade. I hated it; I thought the whole learning system there was ridiculous, what with the self-paced learning booklets. I thought it was too easy (in fact, in several subjects, I was working in PACE booklets one, two, and even three, grade levels ahead of me). The “comics” featuring Ace and Racer were ludicrous; those kids were way too obedient, to the point where it became just plain creepy/corny. Oh, and the teachers… we had to put up little flags to indicate when we needed to go up and self-grade our pace booklets or if we needed to ask a question, but the teachers never paid attention so, most of the time, I’d be waiting there for ages until someone would notice (I eventually grew passive-aggressive and would put down the mini flag stand with such force as to produce a loud banging sound… then the teachers noticed me. Never got in trouble for that, though lol). Anyway, my mom eventually took me out because she thought the teachers were horrible and didn’t know what they were doing.

          Remarkably, this school was not KJVO. They allowed the NKJV as well..

  21. As one who attended a public university (“WE ARE!”), I CANNOT believe that ADULTS would subject themselves to such Draconian rules.

    I’d last 30 seconds … just long enough to tell them to go **** **********.

    1. Because some of us didn’t really consider ourselves adults. We’d been sheltered and controlled by our parents so much that BJU actually seemed like more freedom, especially at first.

      1. Nail. On. The. Head PW. When I arrived at BJU as I Freshman, I felt like a free woman. I had lived under he control of my Fundy evangelist father for 18 years and being away from that was like a breath of fresh air. Was a member of the goody goody club(less than 10 demerits all year) for all 4 years!

      2. So very, very true. I was thrilled with how much additional freedom I had at BJU. I had no trouble keeping all the rules and was one of those blissfully ignorant goody-two shoes, you know the ones, not a bojo but sincerely puzzled by why others where making such a fuss over a few simple rules ๐Ÿ™„ . Ironically, attending BJU put the first major cracks in the fundy mindset I grew up with.

    2. Some of us had it deeply drilled into our heads that we would be persecuted or we would lose our faith if we went to a secular school. We were scared out of our wits by stories of evil on secular campuses. Not to mention many of us were so used to strict and stupid rules we didn’t know anything different. Lied to and terrorized. Lovely!

    3. Don, I was recently talking with my non-fundy grandma about my leaving Fundyville, and she mentioned that my aunt (her daughter) never could figure out why I of all people would submit to all those rules. I wasn’t a rebel by any means, I was just very independent. It flabbergasted her that I would allow someone to tell me when I could get up or go to bed or where I could go with whom – especially since my own parents hadn’t told me these things for years. I did it because I thought that’s what good Christian kids did – submit to rules. Even if they’re crazy.

      Fortunately, my independent streak never truly left and helped me get out.

  22. Oh, and one more thing. Not talking or interacting with anybody else on restrictions sounds stupid. So, you’re supposed to check weekly to see who else is in trouble just like you, and avoid them at all costs. Well, what if you don’t know them and accidentally run into one of them somehow, but don’t realize it? I’m sure somebody would see that and bust both people, but it’s just so orwellian…

      1. I and another guy in my prayer group (room next door) were both campused (not related incidents). In that case, the admin was at least smart enough to realize it was impossible to enforce.

    1. That was the first thing that got me – there’s a discipline committee list posted so you can check on those around you? At my Fundy U, only the RAs knew who was in trouble, and they really didn’t talk to the rest of us about it.

      1. I remember a long list coming out each week with names and ID numbers. One place it was posted was on the bulletin board in the lobby of each girls’ dorm. You’d check it each time it came out, hoping your name wasn’t on it. If it was a minor infraction like being tardy, a “T” would be marked next to your name and you didn’t have to appear before the discipline committee unless you wanted to contest it. But if it was more than 1 or 2 demerits, you’d have to appear before the discipline committee which met in a room in the very middle of the first floor of the main educational building. There was always a looong line of students waiting in the “line of shame” while everyone else was walking by on their way to class. I was always SOOO embarrassed walking by there (and standing in it was excrutiating. I think I only had to twice in four years – once I’d been mistakenly marked “absent”; the other time I overslept on a Saturday and missed a required ISC meeting.) If I remember correctly, the names of socialed students were also posted.

        1. Oh yeah names and numbers of socialed students posted in dorm and the post office in Johnson (for men). Man talking about DC brings back memories. I spent large chunks of my week standing in the hall of Alumni!

  23. what kills me is the fact that college students are supposed to be ADULTS, not 4th graders in need of constant guidance.

    This kind of detailed “rule” leads me to think that the religion of their bubble is more important than making/helping/teaching/guiding disciples of Christ.

  24. As a society officer at BJU I had to sit in on the Discipline Committee a couple times per semester. It was not pleasant, but I did enjoy skimming over whatever DC material they’d left on the desks. One I still wish I had a copy of was an exhaustive list of demeritable offenses, with my favorite instant-expulsion offense being “clandestine rendezvous.”

  25. Every semester that my husband was a married town student at PCC, he received enough demerits to become “campused.” But as a town student, this meant you weren’t allowed ON campus ever except for church and class. How exactly they thought this was punishing him, we’re still not sure.

    1. I knew somebody once who was so far up her own butt that she thought she was punishing me by giving me the silent treatment for not admiring her enough.

      Meanwhile I was all “You mean I don’t have to listen to her whining bossy nasty voice for at least a DAY? How can I get her to do this again, soon?”

      1. This made me laugh yesterday, then I was interrupted, then this morning I thought, what was that funny post again? Then I found it, and LOLed all over again. Love it! ๐Ÿ˜†

  26. Wow! BJU doesn’t see that treating college students like fourteen-year-olds is bound to hinder their ability think for themselves and function in the real world? Oh, wait. . .in the Fundyverse, that’s a feature, not a bug.

        1. I would, except 1. I am askeered of pain, and 2. The gravity-sag effect on a chick my age… Ghastly to contemplate…. ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

        2. @ Natalie, I say – go for it! ๐Ÿ˜€
          @ Seen Enough, Getting a tattoo is no more painful than having to follow brainless (oftem unbiblical) rules, and the agony doesn’t last as long. I’d rather have my tattoos than the Fundamentalist mindset. Also tattoos are MUCH easier to remove.

        3. Oh, I have no issue ith tattoos, or those that have them! My own darling son sports two! But while I agree with everything you say, I still cannot bring myself to be still for owwies, and YES, I am super-wuss! ๐Ÿ™ But really, think of my age. Tattoos at 52? As I say, the sag factor makes the thought of a tattoo just… Un-pretty! ๐Ÿ˜‰

        4. I didn’t get my first tattoo until i was 43. In the *mumble* years since then, a fair amount of my body had been covered. But then, I guess I’m too Gollum-like to get saggy… ๐Ÿ˜†

        5. Maybe you should just get a picture of something that would look good saggy. Like a pug puppy or a hot fudge sundae.

    1. At HAC, you would. Unless you were here, earnestly contending for the “faith,” which means, holding up the Schaap as an object of worship, as well as posting prayers to his dead FIL…. ๐Ÿ™„

        1. *waves hanky*

          You’re preachin’ now! Uh-huh, you can just park that bus right there! HAY-MEN! Testify! That’s how to slice a cake! (okay, I made that one up) ๐Ÿ˜‰

        2. I like it. I have also heard, ” that boy can hoe the corn,” after what was considered an exceptionally fine sermon… ๐Ÿ™„

      1. 50 demerits for Natalie for plagiarizing Max. Another 50 demerits for whining about it. You’re on the cusp of being on disciplinary restriction. Keep it up young lady and you’ll find yourself in the “special” seating section where no one gets a butt cushion.

  27. Have you read this?

    “Once the allegation is reported, we will promptly, thoroughly and impartially initiate an investigation to determine whether there is a reasonable basis to believe that sexual abuse has been committed. Our investigation may be undertaken by an internal team, or we may hire an independent third party. We will cooperate fully with any investigation conducted by law enforcement or regulatory agencies, and we refer the complaint and the result of our investigation to those agencies. We reserve the right to place the subject of the investigation on an involuntary leave of absence or to reassign that person to responsibilities that do not involve personal contact with individuals or students. To the fullest extent possible, but consistent with our legal obligation to report suspected abuse to appropriate authorities, we will endeavor to keep the identities of the alleged victims and investigation subject confidential. If the investigation substantiates the allegation, our policy provides for disciplinary penalties, including but not limited to termination of the actorโ€™s relationship with BJU.”

        1. Exactly. They have no right to investigate the matter. They should immediately report the allegation to the police and step out of the way and let the officials do the job.

  28. So let me get this straight. When you are under “house arrest” you have to quit your off campus job or get a leave of absence? Too bad for you if you need the money for school.

      1. ISTM that there is an assumption that if you can’t scrape up the money while following their rules, then you aren’t the type of person they want.

        Because, you know, Jesus was all about pushing poor people into the outer darkness.

  29. I think one of the worst punishments of spiritual probation which is not listed was sitting in the yellow section of the FMA for all chapel services. Not only were you right in the sightline of every dean, it took forever to exit the building.

  30. I have been a member of several university discipline committees. I have several questions:

    1) Since you will be placed on restriction for a third semester if you have had 2 consecutive semesters of restriction, would you be automatically placed on a 4th semester since you have 3 consecutive semesters on restriction?

    2) Was there any appeal procedure at any level of this process?

    (This is very important because these are tribunal-like decisions that affect students academic lives. If the student sues BJU for wrongful dismissal, courts expect discipline committees to follow due process.)

    3) If you were expelled from ministerial classes, did they refund your tuition fees?

    4) Do they ever give definitions for the various crimes and misdemeanors? If they don’t, the school is failing provide students with the means to follow the rules. (See #2)

    5) Universities treat cheating and plagiarism more seriously than this.

    1. @GEAH.

      1. No, not necessarily, but one would have to appear to have had a change of heart or a new attitude and have said change of heart noted by the proper authorities like your Prayer Captain, Dorm Supervisor or someone like that.

      2. You must be joking.

      3. Don’t think so. * There is a statement that goes like this: ” It is a privilege to attend here, not your right”.

      4. Yes, sometimes.

      5. Do you mean public universities? I’ve heard stories both ways. But, I can speak to BJU specifically and all joking aside, they did take plagiarism and cheating VERY seriously. It would get someone’s attention very quickly, if a situation came to light.

      1. 5. Yes, public universities. My only experience is with Canadian public universities. I am glad to hear that they take academic misconduct seriously.

  31. Oh. 150 you are expelled. I wouldn’t make it until noon, let alone the entire day.

    These are 18-23 year olds? Really? My 20 year old is at a frat house right now and how he chooses to live his life is totally up to him. It’s total BS. They are adults, not grade school kids…

    1. @Big Sexy. Spiritual probation is for those who need to be monitored because their spiritual condition (by all outward appearances) has not been deemed appropriate by the powers that be.

      This said probation is usually, but not limited to, those who have been expelled and have been re-admitted after staying out of school for a year. The student must meet for spiritual counseling for a period of time while first re-entering school.

      1. . . .and those counseling sessions are a joke. Mine weren’t bad, thankfully, but most others I have talked to, including my wife, hated how they were treated. Depends on your counselor, I guess. The staff member I had left after that year to sell life insurance.

        1. @JoeR. It’s a sham, a total sham. It’s nothing more than a perfunctory task that is administered upon the individual. Some times it is laziness, in that those who are in charge and should care are just happy to do things the “way they’ve always been done”. But, the worst part is actually not really caring about someone’s heart and their struggles. Of course, punishing people for contrived infractions is so shallow in the first place that you’ve no rapport from which to disciple. Not at that moment, or ever.

          RELATIONSHIPS and discipleship go hand in hand. You can’t speak into someone’s life without investing in it.

          I wonder why Jesus spent so much TIME with people. Ya know, eating with tax collectors and meeting women at the well and sitting in the temple. Hmmmmm… ๐Ÿ˜ฏ

    1. What have you been sniffing, Kaiser?

      This system of snitching and demerits that is imposed on adults in the name of Christianity is reminiscent of Soviet-era Stalinism. This has nothing to do with “the cause of Christ.”

      You have been deceived all this years. Your religion is as good as the Pharisees’ in the NT.

      1. I think JERRY is so small he cannot measured. Surely he did not really mean the CORRECT word, “immeasurable”? Ah, the richness of a fundy education… ๐Ÿ™„

        1. To add to that….the sentence is grammatically incorrect. The way jerry has written, the cause of Christ is describing website instead of damage. Forgive me for being nitpicky….fundy ways die hard.

    2. No, Jerry. BJU, PCC, HAC, and the rest will be called into account for the unmeasureable damage being done on those campuses to the lives of students and to the cause of Christ. I guess you’re OK with externals and nitpicky stuff being emphasized at the expense of true spiritual growth and maturity, but we’re not.

      Calling them out for their sinful and abusive behaviors and warning others to avoid their false spirituality is actually a service to those impressionable young people who may otherwise be spiritually shattered, and to those within the system who know something is off but can’t put it into words.

    3. No, Jerry. The only “damage” being done to the cause of Christ is from Fundamentalists, who are more worried about slivers in other people’s eye than they are the log in their own eye. The “damage” is that people will not see the real message of Christ, which is that God SO LOVED THE WHOLE WORLD he gave His only begotten son, Jesus Christ..people will see those who claim to be Christian walking around perfect and holy and realize they could never do that, so they give up. THAT is the real sadness Jerry. The real sadness is people who miss out on the joy of a human life well lived because they were small minded people. ๐Ÿ˜€

    4. And the Lord said unto [Jerry], Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou [or Bob or Jack or whosoever be thine idol] doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door.

      And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

    5. WOW! Do you mean that Christ is so transcendant and omnipotent that what little we say here is completely unmeasurable… or… do you mean that the christ you are talking about is so-o-o pitifully weak that he cannot stand up to our blistering attacks?
      Or… are you talking about those who set themselves up as a “Christ” and have institutions named after themselves and allow men to worship them in lieu of God?

      Just because something claims to be Christian does not mean that it is. And just because something doesn’t perfectly fit someone’s preconceived notions of what Christianity is, doesn’t mean that it’s not.

  32. I would have been a PCC guy, but luckily my older brother talked my parents into allowing me to go to large state university. The fact that large state university was 70 miles away and PCC was 300 helped my cause.

    I had my own sort of shock when I got to my dorm. After parents left, my new roommate, who I had met a couple months before, brought out the marijuana and started inhaling. I had no idea what to do, so I called my parents, who were ready to come and get me that night.

    I eventually made it, with some problems adapting to normalcy socially, but I made it.

Leave a Reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.