Missing The Obvious

So if you were a legal eagle who was going to give some good advice to a room full of fundamentalists, what topics do you think you would cover given the national negative press that has plagued fundyland this year? Safeguarding children in your congregation? Mandatory reporting laws? Legal definitions of child abuse?

Or you could just pretend that the scandals just don’t exist and focus on some other equally important topics…

Of course! Obamacare and gays! If there are two more pressing issue for Christ’s church today I certainly can’t think of them. Can you?

123 thoughts on “Missing The Obvious”

  1. Obamacare and, the fundy favorite, gay infiltration of their churches…

    But while they enjoyed their bread and circuses a really important topic was sadly kept under the carpet:

    ABC 20/20
    Chuck Phelps proven a liar in court
    How David Gibbs’ efforts to supress information in a child rape case were disallowed – Pastors, your counseling notes may be read in court!

    But they strategized against the gays, so the attendees left happy. 🙄

    1. and with major portions of Obamacare determined to be unconstitutional, Terry Hamilton’s presentation was even more worthless.

      1. I’m surrprised they did not have a session on how to destory the victim/accuser in order to protect the ministry at all costs.

        Covering sexual sin for the good of the ministry is never good for the ministry.

    2. If the Sword of the Lord possessed any decency or cared at all for church members they would have had a legal conference about the importance of reporting ALL allegations of child abuse.

      But they don’t. And their members did not care enough to demand it.


    3. Again they fall under the self inflated assumption that they are more influential than they really are. I know of no gays that are breaking down the doors trying to get accepted in fundy churches.

      1. I know of a church where the pastor recieved death threats because he fought gay-rights legislation. It happens, but child abuse would certainly be a more common issue. A pastor can fight back; a child cannot.

        1. I was part of a church where the pastor used Gays as his own personal scapgoats to promote his own anti-gay agenda. He staged several attacks on himself and blamed the gays in the community. He hit himself over the head with a metal chair, vandalized the church, torched his own home and shot himself and each time blamed it on the gays who were out to get him. He had even bulit an elaborate network of gays in the Police and fire departments who were covering up for one another and framing him in the process.
          And you want to know the sick part? We believed him because he was the M-O-g and we so wanted to believe him. When you wake up from that and see t for what it is… and you realize how much of your own soul you have sold to be right with God by blindly following the so called M-O-g. It sickens you and leaves you empty and angry. Not because of the betrayal (that is bad enough) but because you wanted o believe and you realize you made some con man your idol.

        2. A former deacon from my former fundy church said a couple deacons had asked the pastor to provide evidence of some of the threats he allegedly received (as a result of his “hard preaching” 🙄 ) so they might be investigated by the authorities. The pastor declined to provide the evidence he allegedly had and chose not to alert the authorities.

          We both think it was all made-up drama.

        3. WOW …….no wonder you have issues with pastors.

          What a piece of work.

          This explains alot Don.

          Must’ve been a HAC grad 😉

        4. Actually he never graduated high school. Elmer Gantry is about as close as I can explain him. He had a quality about him that made people want to trust him.
          In fact very few of the rural IFB potentates have more than a High School education around here. But they are persuasive rhetoriticians that have established themselves was men of god according to Acts 4:13a (1611 KJB) He was last of those types I’ll ever set under, ever again.

          So I have sat under a Dallas theological SBC grad, a BJU dictator, two of these Acts 4:13a types, a UNCG grad and now a Masters College grad. (BJU through the last 4:13 type comprising the lion’s share of my church going years.)

        5. @Don

          Wow and just wow. Did he ever file police reports of the contrived crimes? If so was he ever charged with filing a false police report?

        6. Yep and nope. Yes he did, no they didn’t. He had his own Fundie Legend going on around here, promoting himself as one that had been persecuted not only by a stealth band of marauding homosexual vigilanties led by the one who had made it his mission to get this pastor (because according to the legend he was selling, this man’s lover had gotten under conviction while sitting under the hard preaching of our humble servant of god and had broken off his illicit affair, thus sending the gay leader into a rage. He (the jilted lover) activated his contacts in the local law enforcement system who sprang into action providing a massive coverup concerning the multiple attacks on our mild mannered hero and his family.

          ‘samazing what people will believe when they want to believe something. Al Lacy couldn’t have written this any better. And believe we did. families were torn apart, friendships were shredded and fear, dread and suspicion ruled the day. All in the name of spiritual warfare.

          Dang, I’ve hijacked this post enough today. Any more questions lets take it over on the forum. Sorry, Darrell.

  2. I’ll teach a class…

    *If an adult or child in your flock gets raped – call the cops.

  3. Youhave to remember that they don’t even know what channel 20/20 is on. To them the 20/20 piece was an attack on the IFB movement not an expose’ of the criminal abuse found in the cult of the IFB movement.

    1. Actually I have some fond memories of the pastor of my youth. We were in an SBC church until my dad passed away when I was 13. Then I’m not sure what possessed my mom to leave the SBC and go IFB (other than she couldn’t handle the memories of dad that were so much apart of going to church there. His death devistated her to the point she could barely function and I had to grow up early… but that’s a story for another time and place.) So from 13 until 17 I endured the spiritual eliteism of a rabid BJU outpost. I couldn’t but into the god they were selling so I quit church. Now here is the kicker, the BoJo bunker had done such a good job of indoctrination that when I went back to church the only thing I knew was the IFB. I was convinced that ony they had truth and God was only to be found in the KJVO fortresses. So I went back into the “family” in my early 20’s… I have been out of the mindset for five years now and out of the physical brick and mortar prison cell for almost two years now. I didn’t mean to paint the SBC pastor, the UNCG grad or the Master’s college grad as a moronic IFB loons. I’m at the point where I’m going to jetison the Baptist portion of my reformation manifesto, and I’m awfully close to 86ing brick and mortar attendance… I’m still asking the Lord about that one.

      1. hey george?
        yeah don
        didn’t we just run spell check?
        why yes we did.
        Did you copy the corrected copy and put it back over here?

    2. Matthew B – in regards to your question about SBC – we left our “secretly IFB church” a few years ago and decided to go SBC. Church that was “secretly IFB” does not have IFB posted everywhere, but is run extremely similar to them. They just didn’t want the “social stigma.” At the SBC church the pastor had no problem telling me on several occasions that I was “wasting” my “talents” as a stay-at-home mom and not working full time making $70K a year to put into the offering plate. Unfortunately for him, he didn’t realize that he was talking to the one who “wears the pants” in the family, royally ticked me off, and we decided to return to our “secretly” church (at least we knew what issues we would face there and knew we wouldn’t hear unsolicited comments like that!) I’ve heard alot of good things about SBC’s too, but I’m content now to be different from the IFB groups I grew up in and remain in the church my family is at for now.

    3. I do have experience with the seminary you mention. 3 and a half years’ worth. If you’re thinking of going to Boyce, don’t. It’s a waste of time. Get yourself educated in a marketable skill that will make you money so you can support your family.

      If you feel “called into the ministry” then tread lightly…. There are probably better seminaries out there but SBTS is pretty cheap if you’re SBC. Is it fundy? Yup. Advice if you come as a student: 1) Live off campus so you don’t get caught in the bubble/web/beartrap/iron maiden/etc. (not to mention the dorms should have been demolished 15 years ago) 2) Realize that half the classes are just basic Bible knowledge. 3) Wife hunts at this seminary are an exercise in futility. 4) Al Mohler is to SBTS what Jack Hyles is to FBC Hammond. 5) You’ll notice ‘clones’ of faculty members running around campus. 6) Most of the money is spent on making the most-visited parts of campus look cool. 7) The school is reformed. Faculty are accommodating to other views but students will beat you with a stick if you don’t have five points sticking out your behind. 8) When you graduate, don’t count on getting a job in ministry straight away. Or a few months later. Or years later…

      Any questions?

  4. Isn’t this what they always do? They make up lies about the big bad people attacking them while at the same time abuse others for their own gain? I’m not surprised at all. Not only are they failing to address real topics, they are completely making stuff up about people supposedly hurting them.

    I’m being left with such little choice but to believe that these people don’t really believe in God. If they did, they would think about the time when they will have to give an account to God for their actions.

  5. I actually laughed when I read this. Then I cringed. This isn’t really something to laugh at, is it?

  6. The one that really pisses me off is the top right that implies integrating the “bus kids” with the “church people” can kill your church.

    1. Agreed. They should have a bullet that explains just what the goal of a bus ministry is. Is it to reach families? Or is it to bring kids to church, get them to fill out commitment cards and get them to bring their friends?
      The bus ministries I was involved in when I was in those circles was exclusively about the later. The church I minister in now kills all programs that are not centered around the family. Separating kids from their no-good unchurched parents is just divisive and it has been a problems since the days of D.L. Moody that this sort of ministry only lasts as long as they are kids. They learn church is for kids, grown ups stay home.

      (steps off of soap box, picks it up and stuffs it under the arm and shuffles off.)

  7. that’s bizarre. Gee, what a useful session. Except for the legal seminar, the schedule looks like it was ripped right out of 1988. Nothing new hear folks, move along…

  8. I would guess Lonnie Moore’s seminar tells you how to place classified ads reading “WANTED: Soul-winning soul-winner to build soul-winning club for soul-winning church. To win souls.”

    (And the third or fourth time I started typing that as “woul-sinning,” which might be even more appropriate if I knew what a ‘woul’ was.)

    1. Lonnie’s crowd were the ones who went Downtown Winston-Salem every day walking the streets “Soul Winning.”
      Here were the Soul Winner Club totals for the week:
      Soul Winning update for the week (48) were saved by the crew that went downtown all week. Another (7) were saved by free lance work. 52 for the week.

      1. Did they really call it ‘free lance’ work? Is that supposed to mean people at hotels, restaurants, etc…?

        1. No, I used the term to describe those who were not part of the “Official” Soul Winners Club Street Walkers.

        1. Gary, george may have done that. I’d have to go back and listen to section again to verify if I transcribed the numbers correctly. (or when I did the math I forgot to take off both of my shoes when counting again… 🙄 😉 )

      2. Did they give a # for ” “Now two fold children of hell” as a result of the 1-2-3- repeat after me trick???


        1. no, no, no… that was mean and uncalled for. Folks around here are mostly decent friendly and will go out of their way to be nice.(for the most part) people are people… there are folks at the mothership that are the salt of the earth but they are caught up in a cheap gosple cult and can’t see it, and that goes for the entire network of fundie bunkers in the area. I say that with all conviction and authority because until just a few short years ago I was one of them.
          It’s not the people I loathe… it’s the IFB movement and all the god-in-a-box crap that the movement lugs around and what it does to those who are imprisoned in it.

    2. “woul” – “winning only unrepentant, lazy”


      I also started a “women only…”, but couldn’t complete it.

  9. There was no topic on how wives should be even more submissive to their husbands. Missed the boat, indeed.

    1. Don’t worry–the Thursday seminar on men’s ministry mentions the “Handmaids of the Lord” women’s ministry. I’m SURE that you can find plenty of “submissiveness” discussed there. 😉

  10. “There’s hope in Christ for the thief, there’s hope in Christ for the liar, there’s hope in Christ for the drug attack, the murder, the drunkard. There’s hope in Christ for the homo…..sapien.”

  11. I’ll teach a class.

    1-Do criminal background checks on all employees and volunteers.

    2-Have an appropriate of unrelated adult chaperons at all events. (See #1 for proper chaperons.)

    3-If a child tells you they’ve been molested, call the police.

    4-If an adult tells you they molested a child, call the police.

    5-If you suspect a child has been molested, call the police.

    6-Make certain all doors, except bathrooms, in the church have windows in them.

    7-Have sign in/sign out procedures for all children’s and youth ministries.

  12. First of all, where is Dr. Dr. Dr. Addressing Lonnie Moore – I find this man so disgusting! He has been set up on such a pedestal by the Fundy crowd! He was quickly swifted out of the hills of KY approx. 20 yrs. ago. Those where he is from know the real reason he left. And so does a 20 yr. old young man.

    Jeff Fugate – Why do we have to make a difference in bus kids and church kids? Kids are kids. Children do not know discrimination unless we teach them.

    1. Why do we have to make a difference in bus kids and church kids?

      Because we don’t want the bus kids contaminating our little holy angels. Most Fundie bunkers have “separate but equal” facilities for these “less than desirables.” It is the practical application of a type spiritual eliteism or ‘Spiritual class warfare’. We love those kids and want to help those kids but we certainly don’t want out little Johnnys and little Suzies sitting next to them.

      Remember in the IFB sin is an external virus that must be guarded against by external measures. They see it as something akin to an STD, chicken pox, or lice. Separation and isolation works best, except when it doesn’t. 🙄

      1. Don, You’re so right…but oh so sickening! The bus ministry is where my husband & I chose to work. The difference with us and the other workers was our children were part of this service. We absolutely refused to make a difference in those children & ours! We loved how they loved us and we loved them that much too!

      2. When I taught Sunday school in the IFB (Grade 5 and 6 girls) the bus girls were in the same class with the church members’ kids. But there was one small difference, the bus girls came in PANTS and the church members’ daughters came in pretty dresses. That was the only difference! But often the church girls would say they were not allowed to sit with one of the bus girls! They could welcome them but not sit with them. I found this rather appalling. Some of the church members’ daughters even at that age developed an “I’m better than you” attitude and it was their parents’ fault. So every week in class and in jr. church you had the church members’ kids sitting together and the bus kids sitting together, no mixing. What a shame. 🙁

        1. My mom actually quoted 1 Corinthians 15:33 to me – “Do not be misled: “Bad company corrupts good character” – in order to justify why she’s opposed to my taking a needy child into our home.

          (I probably should have reminded her that she wasn’t quoting the KJV which says, “Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.”)

        2. @PW, thats because quoted correctly, it actually condemns what she is doing, not you.

    2. Many churches have programs to invite children, but IFB churches are the only ones I’ve heard of that segregate the “outside” kids from the “church” kids. At least, some of them seem to do that.

      1. When I was at HAC, LoTheseManyYearsAgo, Jack Hyles made no bones about it that the bus kids were not as good as the FBC kids. The A church service was for the elite only, with all the bus kids attending only the B, C, or D services. My bus kids did not understand, when they came back to night church with us, why Jack Hyles called them “ghetto children” from the pulpit. They did not live in ghettos, and even if they did, why would they want that to be touted from the pulpit, in that “Look how great we are, we rich white folks, bringing in the dirty poor smelly GHETTO CHILDREN” tone of voice? I cringe, I nearly vomit, when I think what I tolerated back then, and all supposedly “in Jesus’ Name”! That would be the Jesus who MADE and LOVES those bus kids…. GRRRRR….. 👿

      1. A little research from the county he’s from will tell you a whole lot! However, there’s not too many IFB’s that don’t have skeleton’s in their closet! Keep in mind…their skeleton’s are ‘under the blood’ – they’re protected… 😉

    3. [i]Why do we have to make a difference in bus kids and church kids?[/i]

      I was always told that some of the bus kids were extremely disruptive, and they would stop those that wanted to learn. But why some of the bus kids who want to learn should be subject to it more than church kids, I don’t know.

      I’ve also been told that, by and large, the bus kids families are not supportive, and their needs are different.

      Maybe the real reason is to keep the preacher’s and deacons’ kids from corrupting the bus kids!

  13. Regarding homosexuality, the bible says the following about its adherents in Romans 1:28-32

    “Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.”

    Based on the Word of God I think it very wise that all people of faith be aware of the practicioners of this vile sin that God has specifically spotlighted in His Precious word.

    1. Good point Greg, it’s wise to worry about the this “sin” while we blindly ignore the molesters/predators of fundamentalism.

      1. No, we need to concentrate on both, heterosexual and homosexual abusers of children (and adults but since adults can usually fight back, center mostly on protecting the children) from both men and women who might try to abuse them. Pedophiles need to know they are NOT welcome! 👿

    2. Anybody who takes the Bible seriously will assert (along with Scripture) that homosexuality is a sin (as is adultery, greed, pride, idolatry, etc).

      The thing is, it is so much easier to point the finger at other’s sins and to minimize our own. Jesus taught: “why worry about a speck in your friend’s eye when you have a log in your own?”

      I can’t change a homosexual, but I can, by God’s grace, repent of the many sins in my life.

      There is a war going on, but it is not between the homosexuals and the pious baptist fundamentalists…it’s between a holy and righteous God who will not tolerate sin and wicked humanity (that includes you and I). The only hope humanity has is Jesus Christ.

      So we can point the finger at those in society who we think are in sin, but really, that should be us. The only difference between a drag queen and myself is the grace of God.

      1. Except that many people who *do* take the Bible seriously and who love God and truth as much as you do believe homosexuality isn’t a sin. I don’t want to argue the issue here and now, but a statement like yours could be applied to any theological issue on which there is disagreement among believers.

        1. By ‘homosexuality” I was referring to the sexual act – not the desire that an individual might have. I should have clarified.

          To struggle with something or to act on that struggle are two different issues.

          But, if you are saying that sex outside of marriage either by a homosexual or heterosexual is totally cool with God, then I would sincerely love to hear your reasons why. Perhaps I can learn a thing or two.

        2. So, Shaft, if your problem with gay sex is that it’s outside of marriage, do you join me in advocating that same-sex couples be allowed to marry?

        3. Re: Shaft – Do you mind sending me your email address? Mine is on the homepage of my website, which my name should link to. I don’t want to hijack this post with a full-length essay. I will say that I don’t think it’s fair to play the marriage card on a group of people legally banned from marriage.

        4. Great Question Big Gary.

          I personally don’t advocate that homosexuals marry each other, but I also don’t sign petitions that say they can’t. Honestly, it’s not an issue that I follow or have any interest in. My interest is in telling people about God’s grace, not in condoning or condemning specific sins.

          I firmly believe that the world’s problems are far bigger than left/right, gay/straight, and black/white. The problem is sin (not specific sins, but sin as in our inherited sin nature, i.e., we sin because we are sinners).

          The solution will not be found once gays can officially marry or can’t marry, or when our specific guy or girl wins the presidency. I believe that the only hope that we have is in Jesus Christ.

          Perhaps that makes me a bit passive on these social issues. They are not hills that I am prepared to die on. However, I will die on the hill of the deity and exclusivity of Christ. That’s the issue that I care about.

        5. My problem with those Gay Rights activists in Britain and Ireland who advocate marriage is that many of them want to remove the right of any Church to refuse to perform such a marriage ceremony, they want to *Force* churches to do it, otherwise there will be Hell to pay…. that is NOT Equal Rights – That is BULLYING.

        6. That should have read “…who advocate “Gay” or Same Sex” marriage….”
          Good Morning, George. You are in good form today.

    3. Thank you, greg. I love how people stop at the end of that chapter without proceeding forward. Let me refresh you:

      “Romans 2

      1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

      2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

      3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

      4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

      5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

      6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

      7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

      8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

      9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

      10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

      11For there is no respect of persons with God.”

      The passage condemns everyone who sins, either knowingly or unknowingly.

      1. Yes, it seems ironic to me that that passage, the thrust of which is that everyone has sinned and no one is righteous, is so often used to “prove” that homosexuals are more sinful than the rest of us.

    4. I’m assuming that Greg bars the greedy and gossips from his church, since it those are particularly vile sins that have been specifically highlighted in God’s holy word? The prideful and boastful preachers are also an abomination, so I guess there is rarely “hard” preaching in his church. Gotta keep the hermeneutic consistent!

    5. You know, I didn’t see it mention homosexuality at all in that passage. Although, if you’re saying all of those things are punishable by death, then why aren’t we killing disobedient children, or boastful men, or any of those other “sins”? Why are you singling out only homosexuality out of all of those. From what I read, he seems to treat them all equally…death.

    6. Where, exactly, is homosexuality mentioned? Not only that, “homosexuality” is a word that did not even exist until 1869.

    7. Fine, but St. Paul regards celibacy as the much preferred marital state for Christians, and he damns marital sex with faint praise when he says that “…the marriage bed is undefiled…”, so I take what he has to say about sex, of any kind, with a pound of salt.

      1. Read all the posts with a chuckle and also a sad understanding that it appears that the time has come “where they will not endure sound doctrine,but to suit their own desires will gather teachers to tell them what their itching ears want to hear.” 2 Timothy 4:3

        All of this invective because a christian pointed to scripture to warn folks to be *aware* of the practitioners of this particular sin.

        1. That you get invective as a reaction is not a sign that you are correct.

          If such were the case, the Jehovah’s Witnesses would be the winners with all the doors slamming and yelling they have to endure.

    8. And yet, rapists are perfectly at home in the church. Perfectly able to marry and have kids, perfectly able to “repent” while still doing exactly the same thing and oh- but they said they’re sorry, let’s accept them back! No Christians stand on the street corner shouting about how what they do is an abomination, or vile, or despicable. Nope. Just another “sin.” Because God’s morals are apparently arbitrary and he has little concern for the lives of those who never consented. And I do as much as I can to fight everyday to see that despicable, disgusting, rapist of a god dethroned. I have no respect for that god or for his followers.

      1. Fundamentalists only see individual sin.

        They never see how social structures like patriarchy and sexism are essentially sinful.

  14. The fundamental church that I grew up in had the philosophy of once a person was saved, get them involved in church…. And I am not talking about small group involvement, mentoring involvement, etc. I am talking about new Christians LEADING in Sunday school classes, Awana, anywhere they could be plugged.

    This is the case of our ASSOCIATE pastor (previous childrens minister) (who had given his life to Christ 10 years prior after years of drugs and a child molesting case).

    In 2007 he was charged with 10 counts of child molestation. All friends of his children who had went to our church. It was devastating.

    And you know what the PASTOR did? Did he contact the families of the victims and counsel and comfort them? NO. Did he contact the Associate Pastors family, who was devastated about the arrest and charges? NO

    Did he and another church member bail the associate pastor out of jail and defend him in the public eye.


    All to try and save face about why a former child molester was given a job with children. All because the alleged acts didn’t happen “in the church”. And since the Pastor supported the child molester, certain members of the Church did as well. It ultimately tore up the church and had a huge effect on our small town…

    I have been reading this blog for over a year now and thought I would post. Especially after reading about the 20/20 episode.

    I am done ranting now. 😕

    1. I’ve said this before, but my view is that a repentant former offender against children should be welcomed into church, but should never work with children or youth, and should never be around children or youth without other adults present.
      That’s what happened in my church, and it worked. Nobody made an announcement from the pulpit that the man was a child molestor, but all the church leadership knew, and we all made sure of the safety of the church’s children.

      1. I definitely agree. I think that there should be support systems in place for offenders to be able to grow in Christ and continue learning about His love.

        Only the pastor and a select few older members knew about the previous allegation. Just because someone has accepted Christ in their life does not mean that they will not be tempted… or fall into temptation. Allowing him to work with children should have never been allowed.

      2. THIS!

        My grandfather molested his daughters. Did they ‘forgive’ him? yes, but none of us grands were EVER left with him.

  15. This site is therapy for me. It is so soothing to find so many other people who can clearly see the insanity.

    1. Easterlily, were you kidding when you said this wasn’t a “bad” sin?
      It’s definitely not rape, but it certainly seems bad enough.

  16. Acknowledging an issue is a slippery slope to admitting a wrong. Admitting a wrong is a slippery slope to resolving a problem. Resolving an admitted problem is a slippery slope to transparency and humility. Transparency and humility are slippery slopes to crumbling of authoritarian leadership.

    And as you know, we can’t have that.

  17. I wonder about the subconscious symbolism when I read a name like “Sword of the Lord”. Although not your particular brand of fundies, I am reminded of George “just lifting my luggage” Rekers, and of Ted “I can’t be gay, I have a wife and five children” Haggard

  18. “Lighthouse Kids’ Klub”, maybe if they called it the “Khrist Kids Klub”, they would attach more fundies.

  19. I read this article this morning on CNN. This kind of got me riled up. Even more so than usual because yesterday, I received a letter from my fundy family. One paragraph stated that my sister and her husband were trying to become foster parents. They were figuring out the process and angles because the “government is all in our business”. There is a reason for this, it’s called child abuse. Okay, done with the rant!


  20. Can someone please tell me as an ignorant Brit, what Obamacare is and why fundies see it as a threat? Sorry not to be better informed but haven’t come across this term before.

      1. Thanks Darrell. Of course protected patients who can afford health care would have a major impact on the church.

        There is not much to feel good about life here in the UK at times but not having to worry about the financial impact of accidents and health problems is a real blessing.

  21. Nice thought provoking thoughts. I’d like to add a few.

    As far as letting people work in the church with criminal or just sinful backgrounds– It isn’t our job to decide who is and isn’t truly repentant. But we also must protect our children as well as the new believer. We wouldn’t give a recovering alcoholic the keys to the liquor cabinet, so why put temptation, as well as the welfare of our church kids (bus and unbussed–they’re all kids to me) at risk? Dan Keller is right. Just because we use volunteers in church doesn’t negate the need for some kind of rule system that includes a background check for all potential children’s workers. As a long time Awana worker on our local missionaries team, I have had a couple of checks. I want to be able to be trusted and welcome them.

    As for the homosexual agenda, there probably is one. But as long as the divorce and adultery rate in Bible believing churches equals that of “the world”, gays are the least of our family troubles. We need to quit preaching on AMEN BROTHER!! sins and maybe hit sloth, gluttony, greed, etc. and work on truly being like our example, Jesus Christ.

    Sorry about the rant–But I do feel better now.

    1. To quote a political cartoon:

      Scene: Two exhausted, disheveled men sitting on a couch staring at a TV. One is listlessly holding a remote.


      1. Fight Traffic
      2. Endure Soul-Sucking Job
      3. Fight Traffic
      4. Get Takeout

      On a more serious note, the gay agenda can be summed up in this scenario:

      Bob’s car was T-boned by some jerk who ran a red light. Bob is now in the hospital recovering from major surgery. Bob’s relatives are not able to come visit him because they are (pick one) unable to take enough time from work to make the trip without risking being fired; too poor to make the journey; not physically able to make the trip; estranged; dealing with a previous major crisis; dead. Will Bob wake up all alone, or will somebody who loves him dearly be there at his side? Should the answer change if Bob’s dearly beloved person can pee standing up?

      What if Bob doesn’t wake up? Shouldn’t his living will (previously written and on file) direct the person he loves and trusts the most to take care of the major decisions? Should his relatives, or anyone else, be able to challenge this will if Bob’s dearly beloved person happens to be able to pee standing up?

      Our irrational private health care system covers the policyholder, the policyholder’s sexual partner, and any children produced by the sex they have. Except that dividing the children into those actually produced by these two people getting into a bed and those who weren’t, when they all depend on the policyholder, has long been recognized to be too irrational even for the bizarre thing we have in place of health care. So why should we still insist that the policyholder’s sexual partner be an innie if the policyholder is an outie and vice versa? (Why we even make people go through this rigamarole at all instead of expanding Medicare eligibility to ages 0-135 and income $0-$1,000,000,000) is a whole other topic.)

      1. This ^


        1. Not get up beat up for being gay.
        2. Not lose a job for being gay.
        3. Not be evicted for being gay.

        1. Shhhhhh! We don’t want to let people in on our agenda! Which has been spelled out perfectly in the above posts. Think of all the pundits and preachers that would have to change their rantings and fear-mongering!

  22. “The learning process will ensure that learning could take place.”

    From Abb Thomas’s session description just to the left of the circled one.

    1. I’m trying to work out if that statement actually means anything at all. Also the original writer doesn’t seem to know the difference between ‘insure’ and ‘ensure’. All it seems to say is that if you learn something you might learn something.

  23. I find it amusing that they give the impression that gay people are “outside” the church, just wanting to bust down the door and get in! As if it’s TOTALLY out of the realm of possibility that any gay people could actually ALREADY be in their church…. hmmmmmm….. NAH, couldn’t be! 🙂

    1. I have a fundy friend who’s really sweet. She doesn’t dislike gays, so I guess she’s unusual for a fundy. She also doesn’t think that a gay would be Christian.

      1. Your friend is right not to dislike gays. She is dead wrong that gay and Christian are mutually exclusive. The majority of my gay and lesbian friends identify as Christian or, like myself, don’t use the term because of its increasing negative connotations, but believe in the saving atonement of Jesus Christ for our sin.

  24. Darrell, you seem so intensely bitter. What is the good coming from these posts? You are attacking people and apparently judging them to be insincere false prophets of some sort. Can we just follow Jesus’ commandment and leave them alone if they are doing it in His name?

    1. You forget that in the day of judgement there will be many who say ‘Lord we did all this stuff in your name’ and He will say to them ‘depart from me; I never knew you’.

      Doing something in the name of God doesn’t make it right. We are calling out what we see as ungodly behavior within a religious movement.

  25. Sam, people tell poisonous lies like “Breaking the Lamb’s Leg” in the name of God. People allow known child molesters free access to children. People expose the victims of rape to public shame and make them apologize to the people who raped them, because the rapists are good Godly men. People put on self-congratulatry conferences like the one profiled here, ignoring the hunger and poverty all around them and pretending that the worst sins in their own churches are the changes that some men may have gone to bed with other men and that the President is trying to make sure that nobody sick ever dies due to lack of money, and tell themselves that they are the most Godly of Christians. And you are focusing on Darrell’s tone?

    “Keep sweet” is nowhere in the Bible.

    1. As Christians we are called to be “Salt and Light”
      We are not called to be Sugar.

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